Open mike 19/11/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:29 am, November 19th, 2014 - 241 comments
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andrew little squareOpen mike is your post.

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Step up to the mike …

241 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2014 ”

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  1. Clean_power 1
    19 November 2014 at 7:08 am

    Coming from Taranaki, home of NZ’s oil and gas industry, it will not be long before Mr Little gives full support to pro exploration policies and piss off the Greens. About time the Labour Party puts itself on the side of progress.

    • Te Reo Putake 1.1
      19 November 2014 at 7:12 am

      Have a coffee, pal. You’re not quite awake yet.

    • millsy 1.2
      19 November 2014 at 7:22 am

      I hope, equally that Little also ensure that those in Taranaki have tangible benefits from the oil and gas industry, and not a few hospital wings (that Labour signed off on anyway) and some token jobs cleaning the drilling rigs cafeteria.

      Keeping the NZ Inc policy, would be start.

      Anyway, wasnt your man, Robertson against the O and G industry.

    • Tracey 1.3
      19 November 2014 at 8:01 am

      Perhaps you need to actually read LP policies

    • Cancerman 1.4
      19 November 2014 at 8:15 am

      I’m just happy he is going to be pulling Labour’s capital gains tax policy 🙂

    • Murray Rawshark 1.5
      19 November 2014 at 4:48 pm

      Jeez, you are upset that Robertson lost. How many of you can we expect for the next three years?

    • Clemgeopin 1.6
      19 November 2014 at 9:52 pm

      Labour party has NOT been opposed to responsible mining anyway!

  2. Paul 2
    19 November 2014 at 7:20 am

    Anyone hear of Mr. Espiner’s interview of Little?
    What a nasty person Espiner he is.
    And a puppet journalist.
    Sad days for RNZ.

    • goodsweat 2.1
      19 November 2014 at 7:54 am

      Journalists are never going to stop laying traps and chucking fish hooks. Labour people need to get better at managing them. eg: Instead of justifying and defending his position and role I think Little needs to start responding to a few more lines of questioning with a proud ‘Yes. So what.’ attitude.

      People will only make Little appear incapable if he lets them, he has the hardware.

      • les 2.1.2
        19 November 2014 at 8:34 am

        Dead right…this connects with ordinary people,not so much with sanctimonious academics .

      • Skinny 2.1.3
        19 November 2014 at 9:39 am

        Once the hype of Andrew Little’s leadership win and the following the appointment of his deputy, whom I would presume the wise choice is Mahuta (who is needed to attract back the disillusioned Maori vote). And once the make up of the shadow cabinet & whips are sorted, it would be time to settle things down by restricting interviews with spin media merchants like Espiner, Gower & his side kick O’Brien.

        These lot are not putting across a objective view of the Labour Party’s, and twist the narrative. They need to show some respect and limiting acess by having the phone off the hook will soon get them playing the game. I’ve been critical of previous Labour leaders jumping to the tune of the media who just turn and kick them in the guts for their own entertainment. Less is often more!

    • weka 2.2
      19 November 2014 at 6:22 pm

      “Anyone hear of Mr. Espiner’s interview of Little?
      What a nasty person Espiner he is.
      And a puppet journalist.
      Sad days for RNZ.”

      What did you think was wrong with it Paul? I thought some of the questions were facile, but not all, and there wasn’t anything nasty or that was a set up.

      I thought Little did well.

  3. Paul 3
    19 November 2014 at 7:32 am

    The more I hear of the Roger Sutton story, the more I hear a cover up.

    • karol 3.1
      19 November 2014 at 7:44 am

      The very old boys’ network in operation.

    • Tracey 3.2
      19 November 2014 at 7:59 am

      The problem here is that understandably the victim doesnt want to speak publicly. In that vacuum Sutton can be painted as a victim too. I was sorry to see his wife state it was all because of a hug. Sometimes the most dignity is in silence.

      I admire his stepping down. I admire his statement last Friday where he appeared to make no qualifications of his apology. Cf our PM?

      • karol 3.2.1
        19 November 2014 at 8:06 am

        Sutton did actually make qualifications, in a way – by stating (his version) of the complaints against him. This contributes to a seeming whitewash.

        Iain Rennie has said Sutton has breached some confidentiality clause, and is considering sanctions.

        • Tracey 3.2.1.1
          19 November 2014 at 8:18 am

          Thanks for the link karol. I stand VERY corrected.

          I suspect this is why he realised he had to resign

          “…Sutton made a sexually suggestive comment about Prime Minister John Key’s wife, Bronagh, in the presence of the chief executive of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, Andrew Kibblewhite. …”

          Will we know if he got a goldie?

      • miravox 3.2.2
        19 November 2014 at 8:09 am

        She’s not allowed to speak about it. Nor is Sutton

        The woman who made a sexual harassment complaint against Cera chief executive Roger Sutton is “torn up” and upset he has been able to foster public sympathy.

        The victim has been told by State Services Commission (SSC) lawyers not to speak publicly about the case. She has repeatedly declined to comment when approached by Press.

        The information the Press has suggests she had a very, very good case and Sutton did have to step down.

        Andrea Vance is scathing as well for the victim-shaming that is going on. Where he gets a stage-managed exit, she has to go back to work with Sutton for another 2 months.

        I agree with Paul that this is damage control.

        • ExStatic 3.2.2.1
          19 November 2014 at 8:47 am

          I worked with Sutton and he is a nasty piece of work, quite the opposite of his public persona. I think Tina Nixon sums him up well.

      • Murray Rawshark 3.2.3
        19 November 2014 at 4:52 pm

        The complainant has been prevented from commenting publicly. It looks like there is a lot more to this story. Sutton has the hairstyle of an ageing Lothario. He seems to be a narcissist.

        • greywarshark 3.2.3.1
          19 November 2014 at 7:53 pm

          Is Roger Sutton Robyn Macdonald’s brother? If so they seem to have similar outgoing extrovert personalities.

    • felix 3.3
      19 November 2014 at 8:37 pm

      Cover-up, damage control, call it what you will.

      These fucking creeps have even paid Cameron Slater to publish their lies and smears against the victim.

  4. Tracey 4
    19 November 2014 at 7:56 am

    If Robertson wants to lead the Labour Party in the future, here is my advice

    Swing in genuinely and wholeheartedly behind your elected leader. Strongly counsel your supporters to do the same, publicly and privately. Keep working hard for the principles and policies of the LP. Get on the ground, out of Wellington, meeting people and working with unions to advance the LP cause. If a single supporter of yours leaks, gaffes or otherwise goes against the interests of LP speak against their actions privately and publicly and support Little to get them gone.

    Be there every step of the way until LP is in government again. Make yourself part of LP genuine succession plan.

    Do this and everyone will see you as leadership material and see that your opportunity was hard earned, deserved and in the best interests of the LP.

    There are many ways to be a leader.

    • goodsweat 4.1
      19 November 2014 at 8:10 am

      I think Little and Robertson offered 2 different rejuvenation paths for Labour and the right fork in the path was selected.

      Robertson has the ability to create harmony within the shadow ministry. Harmony I’d hope would radiate out to and embrace voters.

      The Little path is not so ‘get everyone holding hands and singing first’ it’s lets start knocking our public face into shape so that we start creeping in the right direction on the popularity stakes and our rise will induce in-house harmony.

      As per clean power’s comment above. The oil and gas thing is happening in Taranaki, it has been for years.

      I’d love to see what happens to Labours fortunes if Little starting tabling plans like….”The average oil company engineer makes about $2000 a week. There is a shortage of them. Labour will double the size of the Oil and Gas Engineering College in Taranaki.”

      That’s the type of press releases I’m looking for. Not “It’s been proven, another 50,000 hungry kids.”

      • BM 4.1.1
        19 November 2014 at 8:17 am

        I agree.

        The Robertson path was the liberal green path
        The Little path is jobs and industry.

        The Little path will certainly appeal more to middle NZ as long as he doesn’t pull out the compulsory union card or try to legislate all power to the unions.

        Be interested to see how Key plays it.

        • Clean_power 4.1.1.1
          19 November 2014 at 8:28 am

          According to your analysis disagreement and confrontation with the Greens are inevitable. I do not believe R. Norman will ever agree with oil and gas exploration: his communist background is too strong for that.

          • Tracey 4.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2014 at 8:32 am

            You vote for a right wing party aye?

          • BM 4.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2014 at 8:35 am

            Yep, I don’t think the Greens will be overly excited about Littles promotion to leader.

            I’d say Grant Robertson would have been their preferred choice.

            • karol 4.1.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2014 at 8:38 am

              This Green voter marginally would prefer Little.

              • BM …
                19 November 2014 at 8:48 am

                Really?, I find that quite surprising, I would have thought Grant Robertson would have ticked all the boxes.

                Gay, Liberal, big on green issues.

                • karol …
                  19 November 2014 at 8:54 am

                  You really don’t understand the Green Party policies and values, then.

                  Me: lesbian, middleclass, and for traditional Labour values like supporting the least powerful workers, people unable to work, and those on low incomes, as well as for a sustainable society.

                  To me Robertson has many admirable qualities, but his lack of connection with the gritty side of low income life, unions, etc, is a big weakness.

                  • BM …
                    19 November 2014 at 8:58 am

                    You sound more Mana/Alliance then green, karol.

                    • karol …
                      19 November 2014 at 9:07 am

                      Actually, one online party affiliations quiz put me more as Mana. In principle I probably am. However, I also look at performance, stability, etc of parties.

                      I have voted Alliance/Harre in the past. However, I have had some concerns about their viability for the future. I had some concerns that Mana was dominated by some pretty traditional masculine values. I have some similar concerns about some strands of the current Labour Party.

                      Basically, voting Mana (or returning to vote Labour or even Alliance) is always a possibility with me. However, I have not seen a strong enough indication that those parties have the potential to be a truly left-green, well-performing party, that also strongly supports rights/needs of tangata whenua, women, etc.

                    • Tracey …
                      19 November 2014 at 10:20 am

                      You seem like a dick

                    • miravox …
                      19 November 2014 at 10:28 am

                      Not that BM is into labels …

                    • BM …
                      19 November 2014 at 10:32 am

                      Bit early to be hitting the sauce there, Tracey.

                    • Tracey …
                      19 November 2014 at 10:38 am

                      Cmon BM i thought we were making vacuous labels for people based on our online impressions of them?

                      Alot of transference by somefolks here about drinking.

                    • greywarshark …
                      19 November 2014 at 7:56 pm

                      @ Tracey
                      If you are going to call someone a dick. can you indicate who you are labelling please?

          • goodsweat 4.1.1.1.3
            19 November 2014 at 8:40 am

            I wonder if an arrangement can be arrived at with the Greens. Labour stating, sorry Greens, we’re drilling and we’re looking for it. It represents such an improvement in our employment and average income stakes we’re going to do it. BUT! We need your help please. We’d like your help with our safety and regulation regime, we’d like help with our plans to slowly slide our dependency off fossil fuels etc.

            Is there potential in such an approach?

            Politics is all about aiming for the best compromise.

            • Tracey 4.1.1.1.3.1
              19 November 2014 at 10:21 am

              And in your scenario above, what did labour compromise exactly?

              • goodsweat …
                19 November 2014 at 11:09 am

                The same sort of unavoidable paradoxes/compromises we all face in everyday life.

                I can have a conversation and support the importance of slowing our destruction of our planet and drive home alone, in my 4 seater, boat tugging, un-aerodynamic, heavy, diesel chugging 4WD on tarmac.

                I can have a conversation about the importance of working hard and pour another Scotch.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:08 pm

                  Ah, so your all about conversations but not actually doing anything.

                  • goodsweat …
                    19 November 2014 at 12:24 pm

                    No you drinking, smoking and swearing Draco I’m saying we are all hypocrites….oh shit, I left my fags at the pub.

                  • Tracey …
                    19 November 2014 at 12:25 pm

                    Not at all, sweaty seems to think everyone needs to compromise so he gets what he wants, cos he knows whats best for everyone. Pie draco?

                    • goodsweat …
                      19 November 2014 at 10:41 pm

                      I’m all for generating opportunities Tracey. That’s all.

                      As those opportunities get picked up, that’s all growing the pie is. It’s not witchcraft. You have reservations because it’s thinking that has produced little in the past.

                      Our productivity to date has hinged on how much Romania will pay for milk powder. As Romania pay more, the advantage to Joe Kiwi in the street is a few more $ for Chch. That’s ok, they need a hoist up.

                      If we can get a rocket under housing…I can see no good reason why a DPB mum shouldn’t be buying her own home rather than feeding the rent beast.

                • Tracey …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:22 pm

                  Was my question too hard? You stated that labour and greens need to compromise and then laid out a scenario purporting to support that compromise. Now, what was Labour compromising?

                  Or is this like your pie theory and you will just keep moving the goalposts?

                  • goodsweat …
                    19 November 2014 at 12:35 pm

                    I don’t think you seek an answer to your question but aspects of my opinion with which to debate.

                    Every single opportunity to approve a mine that comes before the house has been opposed by the Greens. They have approved of None, not a one.

                    I think this is a position that Labour should compromise on.

                    • framu …
                      19 November 2014 at 12:57 pm

                      ahh – but why did they oppose?

                      maybe its got a lot to do with how little we get out of it once all factors are added up?

                      its the reasons for opposing that need to be studied – not the opposition itself

                    • Tracey …
                      19 November 2014 at 1:28 pm

                      Framu

                      He is diverting from his original proposition and scenario, because he knows his scenario was not about compromise but expecting the greens to concede.

                • Tracey …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:24 pm

                  Classy… Your mask is slipping…

                • Sabine …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:46 pm

                  we could also hold hands and sing kumbaya?

                  or bake cakes?

                  or eat chocolate?

                  not that there is anything wrong with chocolate.

          • hoom 4.1.1.1.4
            19 November 2014 at 10:28 am

            I do not believe R. Norman will ever agree with oil and gas exploration: his communist background is too strong for that.

            Non Sequitur.
            Communism historically has been notoriously dirty & heavily reliant on heavy, extractive industry…

          • DoublePlusGood 4.1.1.1.5
            19 November 2014 at 12:04 pm

            How does that logically follow from having a communist background? Do you know anything about communism?

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.5.1
              19 November 2014 at 12:11 pm

              Clean_power shows all the signs of being a RWNJ and so, no, he doesn’t know anything about communism.

          • Foreign waka 4.1.1.1.6
            19 November 2014 at 7:11 pm

            Communist Party? Please explain, or better still elaborate what in your opinion are the principles of a communist party are and whether there is anywhere in the world where these are being fully translated into policies.

        • goodsweat 4.1.1.2
          19 November 2014 at 8:35 am

          Union work involves adjusting how a fixed size pie is sliced up.

          I think this is a pursuit that will sound a death knell for an opposition leader. It’s thinking that has assisted in the party’s popularity decline.

          If we have a union guy showing us his plans to increase productivity and opportunities and consequently improve outcomes for many, Labour is on it’s way back up.

          • Tracey 4.1.1.2.2
            19 November 2014 at 10:18 am

            And there goes your flawed pie theory again.

            Union membes have higher wages and better conditions than their non union counterparts. The sky didnt fall.

            When a workforce is happy, feels safe, can feed and clothe and educate the kids, you watch your productivity line.

            When people are tired from over work, underpaid, worried about how to care for the sick child at home, both financially and physically cos you cant afford a day off,

            • goodsweat 4.1.1.2.2.1
              19 November 2014 at 10:53 am

              Tracey, I base much of what I have to say on my diverse, colourful and questionable background.

              I’m sure if I could present my point in another way it may hold more appeal for you…. I should, who wants to be Mr Cliché. Grow the freakin pie! Pluuueze.

              I don’t need much money to lead my ideal life. On occasion, like everyone, I need $1k for 4 tyres. I just short-term grow my…pizza. We are so lucky in NZ, we are surrounded by opportunity.

              Unions are not as important as they used to be. Rich proud history that runs through the Labour Party like capillaries but the fact is: Diminishing relevance. I love the tactility of a big broadsheet newspaper, too bad, diminishing relevance.

              Bashing the desk with a clenched fist might get the crew an extra $1.50 an hour. I think Labour needs to aim higher. When we can’t get a builder for love nor money all wages will climb of their own accord. Burger King get away with their Southern Plantation Employment Contracts because they get 50 kids fronting for a spot. It would be way different if a blind guy, a guy with BO and his dog showed up…”Do you mind if I chuck Spinner in your skip during our interview?” BK’s employment contracts savaged to death in the social media and enough spots elsewhere people don’t need to respond to their ‘Workers Needed’ ads. I think that’s where we should be aiming.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                19 November 2014 at 12:25 pm

                Union work involves adjusting how a fixed size pie is sliced up.

                Nope. More often than not, IMO, it was the unions who forced the growing of the pie. High wages and high employment forces innovation for higher productivity, low wages and low employment as this government is running does the opposite.

                Throw in government investment into R&D to produce here from local resources the products that we use and you get an even bigger pie not because we’re producing more of the same stuff but because we’re making more stuff. In other words, getting better use from our own resources rather than selling them overseas and thus making us poorer.

                BK’s employment contracts savaged to death in the social media and enough spots elsewhere people don’t need to respond to their ‘Workers Needed’ ads. I think that’s where we should be aiming.

                True but you have no idea as to how to do that. Here’s the thing, you don’t leave it to private enterprise because they will work to decrease employment so that they can implement sociopathic working conditions. We know this because it’s what’s been happening over the last thirty years in NZ – which is why we still need unions.

                • Tracey …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:31 pm

                  But… But… But the PIE!!!

                  If only you could see that sweaty is right, then we could all get along.

                  Despite his allegedly colourful life experience he thinks unions are just about banging fists on the table.

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    19 November 2014 at 11:37 pm

                    So, are we still on this “growing the pie” BS? Exponential physical growth on a physically constrained planet is destroying our world. And the main economic growth the western world has seen over the last 10 years has mainly been due to financial and banking numbers gaming. Not exactly the foundation for a serious economy.

                    Time our politicians started talking about low carbon steady-state and de-growth economies. If we don’t do it ourselves, nature will do it for us. And we won’t like that one little bit.

                    • miravox …
                      19 November 2014 at 11:54 pm

                      Queue George Monbiot

                      Is it not also time for a government commission on post-growth economics? Drawing on the work of thinkers such as Herman Daly, Tim Jackson, Peter Victor, Kate Raworth, Rob Dietz and Dan O’Neill, it would look at the possibility of moving towards a steady state economy: one that seeks distribution rather than blind expansion; that does not demand infinite growth on a finite planet.

                      It would ask the question that never gets asked: why? Why are we wrecking the natural world and public services to generate growth, when that growth is not delivering contentment, security or even, for most of us, greater prosperity? Why have we enthroned growth, regardless of its utility, above all other outcomes? Why, despite failures so great and so frequent, have we not changed the model? When the next crash comes, these questions will be inescapable.

              • Tracey …
                19 November 2014 at 12:29 pm

                You think i dont get your point when you dont get that i disagree with your point.

                • goodsweat …
                  19 November 2014 at 12:49 pm

                  Yes, my point is more than a point.

                  It is an undeniable truth that I have proven over and over again. When I was struggling to meet my wage bill at a paint and panel shop in Brisbane I focused on creating more customers.

                  What do you base your opinion that creating more jobs for everyone won’t raise our overall standard of living on?

                  • framu …
                    19 November 2014 at 1:05 pm

                    maybe the fact that more jobs doesnt always equal better jobs or better pay

                    considering productivity over the years has vastly outstripped wage growth, and weve seen an increasing amount of wealth heading upwards to a small elite im interested in how you explain your “undeniable truth”

                    • goodsweat …
                      19 November 2014 at 1:41 pm

                      Increased productivity has generated more $. Automation, world commodity prices, many things have a bearing on productivity increases. The guys that own the robots are making the money.

                      So, while the…Monkees ‘I’m a Believer’ 45 rpm single has grown into 33rpm album size the man in the Fluoro overalls is seeing few benefits from this $ increase.

                      Yes, I agree. Jobs that pay well for workers that make a living with their hands are fast disappearing. A significant and important exception are nearly all aspects of producing houses.

                  • Tracey …
                    19 November 2014 at 1:31 pm

                    The last few decades of constant growth unmatchedby low earners wages.

                    Growth is not the panacea you assert.

                    Do you deny .

                    When a workforce is happy, feels safe, can feed and clothe and educate the kids, you watch your productivity line.

                    When people are tired from over work, underpaid, worried about how to care for the sick child at home, both financially and physically cos you cant afford a day off,

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    19 November 2014 at 1:40 pm

                    When I was struggling to meet my wage bill at a paint and panel shop in Brisbane I focused on creating more customers.

                    Did you use ribs or dust?

                    Or a sledgehammer?

                    • goodsweat …
                      19 November 2014 at 1:47 pm

                      We specialised in repaints. I thought you said you had experience in the private sector? You should know how to hustle?

                      I rang a finance company and negotiated a favourable deal that I could offer to people that I had written a quote for over the previous 2 years that hadn’t gone ahead. Some went ahead just with a bit of a discount off the initial quote.

                      You know how to grow the pie Draco…or did your broad experience in the private sector have little to do with the actual making money part?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      19 November 2014 at 2:20 pm

                      You know how to grow the pie Draco

                      Yeah I do. You just proved that you don’t because all you did there was shift the pie around a bit.

                  • les …
                    19 November 2014 at 7:18 pm

                    surely most business’ are focused on winning new business everyday.

        • McFlock 4.1.1.3
          19 November 2014 at 1:37 pm

          🙄
          tories faint-praising little to stir more shit and division within Labour.

          Different character, same script

  5. Sanctuary 5
    19 November 2014 at 8:28 am

    I have to admit I’ve been surprised at the revealed depth of hostility from some sections of the nominal left to a return to “traditional” Labour values that Andrew Little is supposed to represent (I say supposed because he has only been in the job for a day). There has been a quite contemptuously bitter tone in the reactions from (from want of a better term) Clarkist progessive liberals that makes me question if such Clarkist progressive liberals have ever even left wing in the traditional sense of the defintion.

    • Tracey 5.1
      19 November 2014 at 8:33 am

      Perhaps its because the only labour govts they have known were Lange and Clark… With Douglas and Cullen as finance ministers. Many probably dont get that Labour is not a centre right party.

    • karol 5.2
      19 November 2014 at 8:37 am

      Surprised to see Russell Brown, plus many commenters, running the same lines as WO and Gower.

      I guess these are the “centre lefties”, and maybe so-called “urban liberals”. Just surprised they are not interested in a Labour Party returning to its union-based roots.

      • goodsweat 5.2.1
        19 November 2014 at 8:47 am

        Little should shut that talk straight down with a …. “Unions? That was a part of it, I come from a jobs background.”

      • swordfish 5.2.2
        19 November 2014 at 9:21 am

        Yep. Russell Brown calls the result “disastrous” and “a tragedy”.

        Andrew Geddis (apparently a close friend of Robertson’s) thinks it’s the “Worst. Result. Ever.”, a “clusterfuck” and “a terrible, terrible one”.

        Chris Trotter has apparently said something similar on RNZ.

        A few of us, though, have taken issue (I comment on Russell Brown’s Hard News as ‘Mr Mark’). I’m just a very occasional commenter there, but it’s good to see a number of Hard News regulars suggesting Brown and others give Little a fair go.

        • swordfish 5.2.2.1
          19 November 2014 at 10:02 am

          Sanctuary calls them “Clarkist progressive liberals”, Karol suggests “centre lefties” or “urban liberals”.

          I tend to think of some of these people, at least, (don’t want to be too presumptuous, here) as Liberal Centrists. Centrist on economic policy, lukewarm/mildly supportive of Unions, Government Intervention, progressive taxation and the re-distribution of wealth, but 10 out of 10 liberals on various moral issues, possibly with an innate tendency toward grandstanding/explicitly adopting abstract heroic poses that enhance their social reputation. (I don’t want to be too hard on them, though. I’m sure there’s a certain degree of altruism there, too).

          They’re a very distinct group among the urban middle-classes, me thinks. Shouldn’t be confused with the liberal-Left, where I’d place my good-self. We’re the most Left-leaning on economic policy, but 7 or 8 out of 10 (rather than 10/10) liberals. We indulge in less sanctimonious finger-wagging at social conservatives and are more practical/feet on the ground, I’d like to think.

          • Karen 5.2.2.1.1
            19 November 2014 at 1:48 pm

            Yep – liberal centrists is a good term. They usually have come from middle-class homes and have degrees in the arts or law. They are very liberal on social issues, but don’t actually know any poor, uneducated people and don’t have a clue what their lives are like.

            They aren’t like the Nacts – they do have empathy for those on the bottom of the heap. They just can’t see that unions are the only way for many people to get fair working conditions.

        • Sanctuary 5.2.2.2
          19 November 2014 at 10:27 am

          Trotter annoys the shit outta me.

          He is the optimistic bush philosopher before the big push who loses his nerve five minutes before you all go over the top and retreats to the bottom of the fire step, where he subjects everyone to a pathetic, wailing dissertation of all his own fears.

      • Tracey 5.2.3
        19 November 2014 at 10:24 am

        If they can put people in boxes they dont have to tax themselves thinking.

        The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Some evil nzers are working for better wages and conditions for a sizeable portion of a vulnerable and powerless workforce…

        Meanwhile the tax payer union, strangely silent since the election gets a free election press pass to act as a vehicle for the re election of key.

        • karol 5.2.3.1
          19 November 2014 at 10:32 am

          Interesting that in the comments under his post, Brown gives some reasons for his “sky is falling” judgement: that Robertson was an outstanding campaigner, etc (that Labour needed) and that Parker had spent time building up a very credible (as judged by Brown) raft of economic policies (also judged by Brown to be necessary for Labour).

          So now Brown reckons the election of Little means that will all be dismantled with disastrous results for Labour.

          • Tracey 5.2.3.1.1
            19 November 2014 at 10:41 am

            Taking key on with keyesque policy and presentation will

            A. Rely on boredom with key,
            B. Change govt but little else in terms of the vulnerable (for fear the fairness will upset the former nat voters)

            What a nation of sore losers we are. No wonder we get what we deserve. No humility and no personal integrity.

            It looks like the LP will not succeed unless and until robertson is leader and whatever that “success” will mean.

          • lprent 5.2.3.1.2
            19 November 2014 at 12:52 pm

            …that Robertson was an outstanding campaigner…

            I guess the Russell hasn’t thought about the implications of having a person coming from well behind during a campaign and getting a credible number of everyone’s second and third preferences. Campaigns have to suit *what* they are campaigning for. One of the criticisms I had of Grant was that the campaign he was running wasn’t for the party members. It was a rah-rah campaign for the public that was far more suitable for the media in a general election and designed to get on TV.

            Parker had spent time building up a very credible … raft of economic policies..

            And I agreed with that. But the problem with that raft of policies was they were too many, too complex, and under-messaged. They also happened rather too late in the election cycle to be able to get traction. It was a campaign problem accentuated by dirty politics dumping over the election period and sucking up peoples attention. Basically if you don’t get the treasury benches then all of the policy is meaningless because you can’t apply it.

            I suspect that all of those policies will be back over time as that they are largely inline with a direction for Labour. What Little was pushing for was that the process of winning elections wasn’t subverted by too much unexplained policy. If you can’t figure out how to make a policy clear to and being supported by voters (ie the messaging isn’t working), then don’t confuse them. Either wait until you are more trusted, or fix the messaging, or move the debate. Don’t just go on with them because they are “right”.

            You need to get the treasury benches to be able to implement them anyway.

            • greywarshark 5.2.3.1.2.1
              19 November 2014 at 1:29 pm

              @ lprent +1

            • karol 5.2.3.1.2.2
              19 November 2014 at 1:33 pm

              I suspect that people like Russell Brown and Andrew Geddis are influenced by their personal interactions with Robertson. Geddis says Robertson was a good mate and was kind of born to be party leader (my wording).

              I gather Robertson is quite friendly with many people – drinking buddies, casual chats, etc, with many MSM journos. So these people all seem to have had the idea that Robertson was front runner int he leadership contest & are stunned he lost.

              Basically, for many there’s not enough critical distance, and they haven’t really been fair about Little’s experience and skills.

              • lprent …
                19 November 2014 at 3:10 pm

                I try not to socialize with politicians (or for that matter sales people, PR people, and most CEOs), I prefer to just work with them. They have a disconcerting ability to turn on the charm on casual occasions.

                It just obscures me reading their character, skill-sets, and abilities. You tend to wind up with a vacuous ball of nothing much when you analyse it later and no real criteria to judge them by. It is easier to assess them when you observe them interacting with others or when they are having to make decisions or reading them through their effects on other people you know. I’m afraid that I think charm is just vastly overrated compared to proven relevant experience and skills.

                In this case despite Little being very inexperienced in parliament and the caucus, his experience at EPMU and in the brief slot at NZLP president are clearly relevant to the party and the management of the bloody egos that are causing the NZLP so much angst. It is the dysfunctions in the NZLP that clearly aren’t working and is losing elections. Members resonated with that more than the parliamentary and election campaign skills.

                Neither Geddis nor Brown (and others) have or have had much day-to-day involvement in the operations of the NZLP or any sprawling political party or even any largish enterprise. I guess that is why they don’t get it.

                But perhaps they should have a look at what happened to National after they concentrated on their party organisation after 2002

                • geoff …
                  19 November 2014 at 7:53 pm

                  Neither Geddis nor Brown (and others) have or have had much day-to-day involvement in the operations of the NZLP or any sprawling political party or even any largish enterprise. I guess that is why they don’t get it.

                  Don’t under-estimate the power of subconscious anti-blue-collar psychology.

            • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 5.2.3.1.2.3
              19 November 2014 at 6:36 pm

              Interesting comments. I’d be inclined to concur.

              Grant was on Checkpoint this afternoon and Mary Wilson’s grilling yielded something with Grant leaving a door open for his leadership bid again:

              MW: … and if you don’t get there in 2017, you’d put in another bid?

              GR: No, look, it’s a long way away, Mary, what I am saying is that it is not my intention to put my name forward again, I want to knuckle down …

              MW: In this term, that’s what you mean, you’re not ruling out never putting your hat in the ring for leadership ever again?

              GR: It’s not my plan to put my name in again, no, at this stage, no …

              From 2’05” at:

              http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ckpt/ckpt-20141118-1738-grant_robertson_on_having_andrew_little_as_new_labour_leader-048.mp3

      • felix 5.2.4
        19 November 2014 at 7:40 pm

        Russell’s no lefty. Never has been. He describes himself as socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

        The catch is that Russel has always wanted to hang out with the cool kids, and you don’t get many of them in ACT.

        He’s a smart guy, no doubt, and an insightful journo at times, but why anyone on the left gives a fuck what he thinks about politics is a mystery to me.

    • Once Was Tim 5.3
      19 November 2014 at 7:14 pm

      + fuckn 1 :p
      But then it has been 30 years of the neo-lib religion/ideology/culture with a load of people knowing nothing else, and with their loved ones (above-parents, and below-offspring) knowing and experiencing nothing else. As for Labour – I’m holding off indulging in any comment – just to see whether they’re even capable of getting their shit together – Little, Robertson or Parker alike.
      What I can’t abide though is the critics of Labour who chastise various pro-union proponents. It was what Labour was founded on. If they don’t like it – GO get yourself another fucking party – or establish one – instead of trying to trade on a brand – ESPECIALLY in an MMP environment

      • greywarshark 5.3.1
        19 November 2014 at 8:32 pm

        Once was Tim
        What I can’t abide though is the critics of Labour who chastise various pro-union proponents. It was what Labour was founded on.

        I was thinking that too. Anyone who has studied NZ Politics knows that there are big sector industry and interest lobbyists in this country, unions have always been balanced out by the capitalists and farmers. And all have, instead of forming a discussion group working on how we could all advance, have spent their time fighting for advantage over each other.

    • les 5.4
      19 November 2014 at 7:19 pm

      that seems to be the complete opposite of what I am reading!Little accused of being more centre and not left leaning enough!

  6. halfcrown 6
    19 November 2014 at 8:52 am

    I see the shit from the media has started. First up Breakfast with prat Christy c/w simpering side kick

    Head line about the Labour leadership election “LIttle Hope” If that is not a negative spin on it what is?

    • goodsweat 6.1
      19 November 2014 at 8:58 am

      Yep, the press carry on like a dog on the end of a blanket. Chucking mud at lame duck Labour. The very best way to get them to stop is to steer their sheep and pack dog mentality towards fresh headlines, like: OMG look at Labours rise!

  7. goodsweat 7
    19 November 2014 at 8:54 am

    Little needs to avoid being labelled ‘Union guy’. He needs to be known as ‘Jobs Man’. The press don’t refer to Key as ‘ex merchant banker, it would damage his everyman appeal. Folklore has him as a money guy. It would be great if Little’s folklore pitches him as the jobs guy.

    • grumpystilskin 8.1
      19 November 2014 at 9:27 am

      Love it!

    • adam 8.2
      19 November 2014 at 9:33 am

      The rise of Hard right Nationalist groups all across Europe, is a worry.

      Thanks hoom, that was a good giggle.

    • miravox 8.3
      19 November 2014 at 9:47 am

      Hah! that’s awesome.

      I think it was that group that was in Vienna earlier this year, trying to start up a chapter. 200 planned a march along one of the main shopping streets. It all went pear-shaped when more than a thousand came out against them, leading to a police diversion down a side street. If that hasn’t put them off bringing their poison to Vienna, I hope the locals do the same as Wunsiedel next time.

  10. adam 10
    19 November 2014 at 9:28 am

    If you missed what happening in Greece!

    Here is some news and videos of yesterday’s protests

    http://rt.com/news/206359-greece-clashes-us-embassy/

    What I thought was interesting, is that they moved away from the more traditional approach of occupying the universities, and instead took to the good ol’ USA. Who backed the original Junta, which fell in 1973.

  11. weka 11
    19 November 2014 at 9:35 am

    Laura McQuillan
    ‏
    Former senior comms staffer at CERA lashes out at Roger Sutton: “do people really think a hug was all it was about?”

    She doesn’t hold back and calls for journalists to get past the PR (Vance and De Boni have done some good work).

    https://twitter.com/mcquillanatorz/status/534479450138607616

    • Tracey 11.1
      19 November 2014 at 10:30 am

      Blame the victim… But then when we have a PM who thinks

      Roastbusters is “boys being boys”
      Promised an apology to alleged victim of malaysiam attempted rape but refuses later cos he only apologises for “serious” things
      Makes a joke of an escaped murderer and paedophile

      Apparently he is the everyman in NZ…

      • weka 11.1.1
        19 November 2014 at 12:37 pm

        Dita De Boni,

        Still, surely there are a few rules of thumb suggested by good old common sense. First, never say something to a woman in the workplace that you would not say to a straight man (if you were also a straight man, if you get what I mean) – so “Andrew, that bulge in your pants is very fetching today” or “Trevor, sweetie, get me a coffee with milk and two sugars please darling?” are probably non-starters. “Mike, I really like the cut of that suit” , or a simple “well done” instead of a lingering bear hug, are likely fine.

        Generally keeping a bit of a distance from underlings, especially in a social setting, is probably also a good idea, although sadly not followed by many a Kiwi boss who likes to get munted with staff of a Friday night. It happens too much, with often disastrous results.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11360473

        The last sentence seems particularly pertinent given the apparent pattern of behaviour being reported about Sutton (not implying that the above is a description of his behaviour).

        If anyone thought these behaviours were ok before, or thought the boundaries were unclear, they’re not now.

        • Tracey 11.1.1.1
          19 November 2014 at 12:48 pm

          But been explained away for a few days now…

          Mission accomplished, any staff member thinking of complaining has probably just thought again.

      • Weepus beard 11.1.2
        19 November 2014 at 4:02 pm

        Indeed. What’s a little touchy-feely of the young female staff if you are doing such a good job for the old boys network in the Christchurch rebuild.

        [FJK mode]”I think most New Cylinders wouldn’t have a problem with that”[/FJK mode]

        • Murray Rawshark 11.1.2.1
          19 November 2014 at 11:45 pm

          [Whalespew mode]”It’s only dyke New Cylinders who can’t get a rebore that have a problem with outgoing blokes.”[/Whalespew mode]

          This game could get addictive, except I stop and think that so many of us actually think like that. My first impression with Sutton was that at least he’d apologised and deserved some respect for that. My instincts saw something in his appearance and manner that I didn’t like, but I tried to ignore that. I should have trusted my instincts. They’re usually good.

    • Chooky 11.2
      19 November 2014 at 10:54 am

      Yes it takes a lot of courage for a woman or girl (or boy or man) to call out on sexual harassment …because they are in a dependent position …generally they put up with a lot before they have the courage to speak out…hence they should be taken very seriously because it can undermine their health and make their work situation impossible…it undermines their professionalism and personal integrity

      …really the harasser has an ego problem…and a power and control problem…sexual harassment is a form of abuse

  12. Jules Brown 12
    19 November 2014 at 9:36 am

    The majority of both the Party membership and Caucus chose the Robertson path. Only the Unions chose Little. 20% of the college got their man, despite 80% of it selecting Robertson.

    I gave Little my 4th spot because I believe him to be such a poor communicator that he can never in a million years beat Key. His communication skills are a joke, and he will be made to look foolish, confused and insincere time and time again by the media, right in front of the 500,000 voters he’s trying to win back.

    That said, the ONLY option for those of us who voted for someone else is too put 100% of our support behind Little now. If thing continue the way they did, the Labour Party is doomed. Everyone MUST get behind Little. It’s either that or disaster.

    • Chooky 12.1
      19 November 2014 at 10:17 am

      @ Jules Brown…..listen to the Andrew Little interview with Kathryn Ryan this morning and you will change your mind!

    • Sabine 12.2
      19 November 2014 at 2:01 pm

      poor thing. you must feel hard done by.

      but if you repeat it often enough it will get easier. Robertson lost, Little won. The end.

      • Jules Brown 12.2.1
        19 November 2014 at 6:31 pm

        I don’t feel hard done by at all Sabine, because my personal preference is irrelevant. All that counts is the outcome. As you also point out.

        Perhaps you didn’t read the bit where I said: “the ONLY option for those of us who voted for someone else is too put 100% of our support behind Little now.”

        In fact, after hearing that my least preferred candidate had won, I did not bitch about it, I went straight online and made a donation to support his 2017 campaign.

        Personally, I believe that the “centre-left/left-left” credentials of the Labour leader are secondary to his or her ability to unseat National. To me, nothing else matters more than that. You can’t make policy from the back benches. I hope that Andrew Little has the ability to beat John Key. And I will do my utmost to support him to that end. I hope everyone else who (like me) voted for Grant Robertson, will do likewise, because Labour divided cannot beat National.

    • Peppermint Patti 12.3
      19 November 2014 at 7:18 pm

      Weird though how you call him a joke and confused and insincere and then say you give him 100% of your support. Like, that doesn’t seem very supportive at all.

      • Jules Brown 12.3.1
        21 November 2014 at 7:50 am

        I did not CALL him any of those things. I said that because of his communication style, the media will easily be able to “make him look” confused and insincere”.

        But now that Little has been elected, I am going to support him 100% in his bid to oust National in 2017, and have already donated to his campaign.

        Is that clear enough for you?

    • Weepus beard 12.4
      19 November 2014 at 7:54 pm

      Jules Brown can’t spell to, nor things. Her communications skills are also a joke.

    • felix 12.5
      19 November 2014 at 8:18 pm

      Jules, what gave you the idea that Key has communication skills?

      • Jules Brown 12.5.1
        21 November 2014 at 7:56 am

        “what gave you the idea that Key has communication skills?”

        The fact that the huge swathe of politically illiterate fools we call floating voters were suckered in by them and went out and voted for the f*cker.

        These are the people Andrew Little has to win back. Pisses me off, but there it is. These people are not persuaded by policy, but by style.

        • felix 12.5.1.1
          21 November 2014 at 11:54 am

          Nah. Key succeeds in spite of his communication abilities, not because of them.

          Any issue you raise with Little’s ability to communicate goes double for Key. So that’s not it.

          • Jules Brown 12.5.1.1.1
            21 November 2014 at 6:37 pm

            Well, as someone who’s worked in communications for the last 27 years I would have to politely disagree 🙂 I sincerely hope I’m proved wrong though.

            • felix 12.5.1.1.1.1
              21 November 2014 at 7:48 pm

              Not for the Labour Party I hope.

              Seriously though, can you please describe the elements or aspects of Andrew Little’s communications that you believe are a problem?

  13. Chooky 13
    19 November 2014 at 10:11 am

    Very comprehensive, intelligent, wide ranging interview with Andrew Little by Kathryn Ryan today…

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/20157838/what-policy-changes-will-andrew-little-usher-in

    Andrew Little certainly is very intelligent and clear in his presentation …and has a lot to say about core Labour issues …He will be a very able opponent to John Key…and I would say John key is on his last leg

    • BLiP 13.1
      19 November 2014 at 6:02 pm

      ‘

      Very interesting. I’m loving the talk of a Universal Minimum Income as a response to the changing role of labour in the increasingly individualistic nature of worker participation in the economy. And what a wonderful response to that aspect with regards to giving contractors the right to bargain collectively with their “employers”. Great ideas, well articulated. Carry on, Mr Little.

    • Jules Brown 13.2
      19 November 2014 at 6:47 pm

      Sorry Chooky, that interview just confirms everything I already felt about Andrew Little’s style under questioning. He’s good when he’s speaking on his own set agenda, particularly on policy detail, but when he gets asked questions that he should deflect or shut down – like Kathryn Ryan’s stupid one referencing John Key’s ‘boyhood’ ambitions – he flounders around and attempts to answer it in a positive way, instead of just shutting the nonsense down.

      There are 500,000 floating voters out there who – tragically – make their minds up based on the performance of leaders at such moments. I hope he gets a lot of coaching and guidance on how to deal with such questioning better.

      • BLiP 13.2.1
        19 November 2014 at 7:10 pm

        ‘

        I love how our new batch of concern trolls sent here to white ant Mr Little are so obvious.

        • Jules Brown 13.2.1.1
          21 November 2014 at 7:39 am

          Blip, IF you’re referring to me, you’re wrong. I’m not a ‘concern troll’ I’m a Labour Party member who cares with a passion about National being removed from government and Labour getting to make policy.

          For the third time . . . though I did not vote for Andrew Little, I NOW SUPPORT HIM 100%. I’ve already donated to support him after he won. And I urge all people from the Robertson camp (like me) to get on board and do the same.

          • Clemgeopin 13.2.1.1.1
            21 November 2014 at 2:12 pm

            Jules, good on you for supporting Little 100% now that he has been democratically elected as the Labour leader. That should be the attitude of every Labour member and every the caucus MPs too. It does not matter who one gave the first preference to for whatever reason. It is the collective wisdom and majority vote that counts. That is the purpose of the leadership voting mechanism anyway!

            I too did not give Little the 1st preference. I gave mine to Mahuta and Little #2. However, I now give my full confidence and loyalty to Little. I think he will be a very good leader and a very good PM who will have the interest of ALL people and all of NZ at heart. A great choice actually. A man for the moment.

      • Foreign waka 13.2.2
        19 November 2014 at 7:50 pm

        I don’t belief that it will be a personality driven decision that voters look for but rather policies that gives them some sort of certainty about their own and their families future.
        Consider this: there are 1.4 million kids (population 314 million) without a home in the rich USA. Sweden 17800 (population 9.6 million), Germany 254,000 (population 80.6 million) , NZ ???? is there no real statistic to hide a problem?
        Set this against the population and it becomes clear that it is the policy settings that create this.
        Labor surely is by all accounts quite different from a right wing government that we have today that has created a market for landlords at the expense of poor families and 250 000 children.

        • greywarshark 13.2.2.1
          19 November 2014 at 8:04 pm

          @ Foreign Waka
          That Eisenhower quote is Powerful and tender. There isn’t much tenderness for people in the armed forces or in politics. This quote is such a contrast to the usual harangue from them.

        • Jules Brown 13.2.2.2
          21 November 2014 at 6:45 pm

          History shows that – tragically – floating voters vote for personality over policy. We’re talking about the most politically illiterate portion of the voting electorate. These are the people who need to be wooed to swing an election.

          My constituency is the Coromandel, in which 60% of the population earn less that $30,000 a year. Yet 60% of Coromandel voters voted National. This is just one example of the sad, sad fact that a vast swathe of the electorate that “should” be voting Labour, simply does not understand why. They don’t vote on policy, or principle or ideology. They go out and vote for people who will intentionally make them even poorer. Why? Not because they understand policy. They don’t even understand what socialism and capitalism mean. They just like the look and the sound of the f*cker planning to bleed them dry.

  14. Ant 14
    19 November 2014 at 10:21 am

    So caucus is back to the same shit immediately. It’s hard work being a leftie.

    • Tracey 14.1
      19 November 2014 at 10:31 am

      Not all of caucus of course… Those who didnt get the result they wanted. Dunne is always looking for recruits

    • goodsweat 14.2
      19 November 2014 at 11:31 am

      I think if a member of the team with a mouthful of sour grapes so large they choose to clash and lock horns with Little, they will play into his hands.

      Little would just need to say ‘Go to your office with a security guard, empty your desk, go home and we will be in touch during the course of the week.’ once. Leak the details of the departure to the press and watch the troops fall into line and Little’s popularity rise. I think a little ‘That guy isn’t mucking around’ persona will serve Andrew well for the time being.

      • northshoreguynz 14.2.1
        19 November 2014 at 11:41 am

        Damn right.

      • alwyn 14.2.2
        19 November 2014 at 11:48 am

        I suppose he could try it but what is he going to do when the person replies.

        “I was elected by the people of my electorate to represent them in Parliament.
        I intend to carry out the role to which they appointed me.
        Now Mr Little, what do you intend to do when the security guard tells you he isn’t going to do anything you say?”

        Peters couldn’t even get rid of one of his cohort who pissed him off when the guy hadn’t got elected to anything and was only in Parliament because of Winston’s long coat-tails.

        • goodsweat 14.2.2.1
          19 November 2014 at 12:16 pm

          My comment was steeped in poetic license.

          I mean moved to the outer. There will be a tight team dedicated to trying to take Labour to where they wish to be. Players will be part of the solution or part of the problem. Those that choose to be part of the problem. I think Little would be well served by stating ‘Grab your Laptop and sit in the hall.’…not actually sitting on a stool outside the meeting room.

          • Ron 14.2.2.1.1
            19 November 2014 at 9:19 pm

            A wayward member of caucus could be denied access to caucus and moved to back bench with clear message that they will not be nominated again for a seat or included on the list.
            Not much damage they could do if they were outside of caucus and they could just sit there on minimum pay with no status in the party. Admittedly this would have to be a final decision when all else had failed but it would send a very loud message to rest of the team. Leaking to the media seemed to be a favourite way of undermining leader witness the person that leaked to media about Cunliffe skiing holiday. It was pretty well known who of the four leaked the information and there should have been decisive action there and then.

      • felix 14.2.3
        19 November 2014 at 7:26 pm

        Dead right goodsweat.

  15. Whateva next? 15
    19 November 2014 at 11:02 am

    Agree with you Ant, Andrew is going to need all the support of people who want Labour back in.less ego’s and opinions and more action…United we stand, divided we fall!

    • alwyn 16.1
      19 November 2014 at 11:51 am

      Impossible.
      Those photos are faked by a climate change denier.
      Just joking.
      They are really impressive aren’t they? I love the one of the dog looking at the wall of snow where the door has been opened.
      Thanks for posting the link.

      • Nic the NZer 16.1.1
        19 November 2014 at 12:26 pm

        FYI, climate change can cause more snow but its fairly limited where this will happen. If its too cold then the atmosphere doesn’t contain as much moisture, so it can’t produce snow. So there is a sweet spot where there is enough moisture and its cold enough to snow. Some typically really cold places can enter the temperature range where they are now seeing snow.

  17. Sable 17
    19 November 2014 at 12:07 pm

    France wont sell out to the US. Wonder if Keys has as much backbone. If I were a betting man. Article at:

    http://rt.com/business/206455-france-will-not-sign-ttip/

  18. greywarshark 18
    19 November 2014 at 12:27 pm

    On Radionz on small business in nz – they haven’t grown as expected. When asked many business owners were preparing to retire, or didn’t want to be employers. WTF
    After the way that people have been laid out side by side for the business owners to walk on so they didn’t have to get their feet wet!

    Obviously there have to be incentives given to these small businesses to employ even one or two, as they are the largest number of businesses in the country – the mini-businesses – whereas the bigger employers are few. So change the approach to employment, the bigger businesses will do what they want anyway, and put assistance into energising the mini and small businesses. 💡

    • goodsweat 18.1
      19 November 2014 at 1:19 pm

      Yes, the vast majority of us work in businesses that have fewer than 10 staff. Employing people has become time consuming, expensive and risky. Employers are seeing ever increasing advantages in appointing contractors over traditional employees.

      Right or wrong I think people working in many fields need to consider that working as a contractor may well be part of their future.

      I believe Choruses experiment with getting most of their Telco techs onto a contract deal has worked out pretty much as they expected. The workers with sound systems that work hard are doing well, the stoners on a bit of a cruise, not so good.

      The advantages of appointing a contractor over an employee are many: No wages – an account at the end of the month. No vehicle fleet, no Kiwisaver contribution, no PAYE calculations/payments. No sick pay, no tangi leave, no holidays. Can call a contractor “Sweetie” and keep your job. No desk, power, phone, car-park. Easier planning. Guaranteed delivery of job, payment reduction if deadlines not met.

      Folk will throw up examples of fiascos, Novopay etc. Fact remains, it is the way employment circumstances are trending.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1
        19 November 2014 at 2:12 pm

        The advantages of appointing a contractor over an employee are many: No wages – an account at the end of the month. No vehicle fleet, no Kiwisaver contribution, no PAYE calculations/payments. No sick pay, no tangi leave, no holidays.

        Yeah, all the expenses of running the business are stuck onto the contractor who doesn’t get paid any more to cover those expenses and the people once employed to do those jobs are now unemployed. This means that the once employer gets to increase profits for the shareholders by doing nothing and thus becoming even more of a bludger.

        Can call a contractor “Sweetie” and keep your job.

        Shouldn’t be able to but I’m not surprised that you come out in favour of rape culture.

        • goodsweat 18.1.1.1
          19 November 2014 at 6:04 pm

          Yes Draco, sorry I’ve been so long getting back to you. I called the lady that sold me my lotto ticket ‘Love’ and I’ve been charged with rape. Fair enough hey. There is no rape culture in NZ. The Roastbuster thing was frowned on by 99.9% of us. .1% does not a culture make. Strut through Tripoli in a mini skirt and heels if you want to know what a term like that really means.

          The good contractors I know are doing well. The average ones are doing average and the poor ones are doing poorly. Sounds fair to me.

          • felix 18.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2014 at 7:23 pm

            There it is again, that weird idea that unless everyone is doing it, it doesn’t exist.

            I guess you reckon there’s no drug culture in NZ too.

            And no “boy racer” culture.

            And no model train culture.

            FFS man, it’s not a description of the entirety of everyone’s life, it’s a description of an aspect or an element of the society we live in.

            ps your 1% is way off but that’s ok, you get that when you make up numbers. You should recall that even the Prime Minister pretty much accepted it as boys being boys and when asked what he thought he said “they should grow up.”

            • goodsweat 18.1.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2014 at 8:21 pm

              I’m surrounded by beautiful loving people that want the best for their families and friends and we love being there for each other.

              You choose to surround yourself with rapists.

              We get what we ask for.

              • felix …
                19 November 2014 at 8:47 pm

                Um, I don’t really think you’re as stupid as you’re pretending to be.

                I don’t surround myself with adventure tourism operators, but I am capable of acknowledging that there exists in this country something which could be described as an adventure tourism culture.

                Perhaps it would be fun if you could come up with similar examples relating to your social circle and experience of NZ society.

                • goodsweat …
                  19 November 2014 at 9:18 pm

                  To even get in behind the concept that we have a rape culture in NZ says something about the participant that makes me just want to walk away from them.

                  A bad news sponge. A purveyor of ‘Oh woe is me look at how awful we have all become.’

                  I want to be associated with a group of people that wants to celebrate how fantastic we all are. Not what arseholes we have all become.

                  • felix …
                    19 November 2014 at 9:24 pm

                    That’s why I asked you to come up with an example from your own experience. Do you associate with train enthusiasts?

                • Murray Rawshark …
                  20 November 2014 at 12:17 am

                  I’ve narrowed sweaty’s contributions down to two possibilities:
                  1. He’s as thick as two short planks.
                  2. He’s as thick as two slices of toast.

                  I don’t think he’s a troll. I think in his own mind he means well, but that just reminds me of yesterday’s post about how well meaning Key is.

          • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2014 at 10:37 pm

            I think that counts as a distraction from my main point and as pure BS – note the number of people coming out in support of Sutton. That is rape culture and it’s a great deal more than 0.1%.

            • goodsweat 18.1.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2014 at 11:17 pm

              OK, you live in a NZ with an ugly seething disgusting underground rape culture and I don’t.

              I’ll hang out with me thanks.

              • Tracey …
                20 November 2014 at 12:55 pm

                Yea, everyone with a happy face isnt hiding a sexual abuse story from you, but some arw

                • weka …
                  20 November 2014 at 1:11 pm

                  quite.

                  it’s interesting watching goodsweat run that debate technique (that’s me being kind). It’s a very libertarian attitude, as well as nasty and passive aggressive. A whole bundle projections from someone who doesn’t know how to defend their beliefs very well so resorts to setting up everyone who is angry or in political disagreement as being not just deficient but abjectly so. And as if that set up means reality doesn’t exist, lol.

                  I suspect that in the end they will get thrashed with that line, and they seem to be running it out more and more as time goes by.

                  • goodsweat …
                    20 November 2014 at 1:32 pm

                    It seems you have joined this thread for no other reason than to firstly carry on slagging me and secondly stimulate support for a mass slagging of me.

                    I know who I am weka. Your strategies to belittle me and make me feel like a lesser person than you aren’t working.

                    From here on, I’m going to leave you to character assassination endeavours weka. Good Luck, you might have better luck at making somebody else feel horrible. I still love you.

                    [lprent: Let me remind you that repeatably playing the victim here will usually result in me giving you something to be a victim of.

                    If you can’t stand questioning about what you said, then I’d suggest that you don’t say it, use that knob on your shoulders rather than the other one. I really don’t give a damn for whining fools trying to avoid the responsibility to defend what they say themselves. It makes for boring sections of comments for me to read.

                    If you can’t engage and defend your own ideas, then you appear to be in the wrong place. ]

                    • weka …
                      20 November 2014 at 2:03 pm

                      Really with the hyperbole (mass slagging?). Hypocrites usually get called out on ts. When you reach the point fairly quickly of not being able to debate the issues and instead use ad hominems and then tell other people off for being mean, it’s just bullshit of the first order.

                      I’ve done several in depth replies to you, on topic, where I ignored most of your ad hominems, and all you can do is come back with your projections about what a miserable person I am and how you love me.

                      As long as you keep up with the nasty shit, I’ll keep naming you as a sick libertarian fuck with poor debating skills.

                      Stick to the points dude and then you’ll get respect

                  • Tracey …
                    20 November 2014 at 2:01 pm

                    It is why sweaty moves the goalpost from his first comment once it is challenged… The mask slips… And sweaty moves on to others once that happens.

                    • lprent …
                      20 November 2014 at 2:16 pm

                      He does has the spine of a jellyfish. But it could be because of simple stupid ignorance or he is playing troll games in a flame or disruption pattern. Plus of course he could be one of those dickheads with a “look at me complex”.

                      One day my alter ego will make up its mind. But I guess that having a simple toy around to play with is always useful.

                    • Tracey …
                      20 November 2014 at 2:21 pm

                      LOL Lynn

                      Time will tell.

                      It can be useful to see who they stop engaging with over time and why.

  19. Tracey 19
    19 November 2014 at 1:40 pm

    rent increases on the way for auckland renters?

    “Rates hikes of more than 40 per cent are in store for some Auckland ratepayers after the city’s council rejected capping rates increases.

    Almost 5000 ratepayers in the region, including about 3700 residential households, will see their rates jump by more than 40 per cent next year. Auckland Council says this is fewer than 1 per cent of total ratepayers.

    Nearly 10,000 ratepayers will have rates increases of more than 30 per cent and just under 30,000 will see their rates rise by 20 per cent or more.

    But while residential ratepayers will face an average 5.6 per cent rates rise under the draft budget for the year beginning July 1 next year, 118,000 households will see their ratesdecrease.

    Last night the council’s budget committee voted by 10-7 not to adopt a transition management policy, including one proposal that would have capped rates rises at 10 per cent and rate falls at 2.1 per cent.” NZ Herald today

    • b waghorn 19.1
      19 November 2014 at 2:38 pm

      Houses in Taumarunui 30k -250 k rates under 2k rents 180 ish for nice houses

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 19.2
      20 November 2014 at 7:15 am

      well … come ……… welcome ……….
      ……. nice to see you come back …. back again, well …..
      ………….well ………….

  20. phillip ure 20
    19 November 2014 at 1:50 pm

    comment@whoar:..what a strange little group are all singing the same disapproving chorus at the election of little..

    ed:..we have russel brown..geddis from pundit..bradbury from the daily blog..and farrar from kiwiblog..all singing from the same song-sheet..

    ..(a political mixed-salad you cd say…cue bradbury and farrar looking at each other with a degree of alarm..)

    ..there is much wailing/renting of clothes/gnashing of teeth from all of them…with brown getting particularly purple/choleric..

    ..for why..?

    (cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/commentwhoar-what-a-strange-little-group-are-all-singing-the-same-disapproving-chorus-at-the-election-of-little/

    [lprent: You are a day early. But what the hell… auto-spam removed. ]

    • b waghorn 20.1
      19 November 2014 at 3:31 pm

      Welcome back. I think think if littles election has pissed of the nuts at each end of the spectrum he’s probably the right man.

    • Tracey 20.2
      19 November 2014 at 4:46 pm

      Lol@ cue bradbury and farrar looking at each other with alarm

    • Chooky 20.3
      19 November 2014 at 5:10 pm

      philip ure…you are back!…lol…say no more

    • Paul 20.4
      19 November 2014 at 5:20 pm

      Welcome back phil.
      Missed your contribution.

        • left for deadshark 20.4.1.1
          19 November 2014 at 8:18 pm

          welcome back.
          by the way, did you have family in Dunedin a century ago, a wee piece in the ODT and there was an Ure trading in Princess st.

        • goodsweat 20.4.1.2
          19 November 2014 at 8:40 pm

          Hi Phil, I’m a new smartarse. You got thrown out before I could say I love the ace 10% of your graffiti but the mock cream content is just ugly spray paint on some poor old joker’s fence.

          With a machete wielding editor wired the same as you I reckon you could pen some world class stuff.

          Welcome back bong-breath.

    • Murray Rawshark 20.5
      20 November 2014 at 12:23 am

      Welcome back. I noticed something was missing.

  21. mickysavage 21
    19 November 2014 at 4:10 pm

    And over on Pundit our very own lprent is taking Josie Pagani to task for her claim that the party needs to have a wide ranging debate …

    http://pundit.co.nz/content/how-andrew-little-needs-to-begin

    • Tracey 21.1
      19 November 2014 at 4:58 pm

      Wayne Mapp defending josie pagani.

      What a gentleman. Speaks volumes.

      The last time i recall anything abusive or construed as such about ms pagani was when she did her christmas post from the hill and then ran.

      The Standard is the reason lp polled 25%, apparently. And then she chides lprent for lack of self awareness, Josie meet kettle, i think you can call it Black. A whole post about the way Little should begin is by making the LP what j pagani wants it to be.

      • greywarshark 21.1.1
        21 November 2014 at 2:53 pm

        I put my pseudonym forward on the 19th Nov to comment on pundit and am still waiting for the second validating email. I was going to go through Josie Pagani’s piece and explain why people get so hot about her fluff.

        Some of her points of contention starting from the top with –
        Unity – Over what – policy, collegial behaviour to each other, to the members, to the endurance of Party ideals, to the country etc. – (define)
        Open debate – We have quite a lot of that yet she doesn’t like it when it appears. We aren’t as dainty as she would like, and use rude words too some time, and worse don’t agree with her.
        Policy fights – We often do, but seem to have hammered out some important ones we have unity on. Then we fight about the best way to implement them.
        Achievements of Labour – she mentions nuclear-free policy – and implies it was arrived at by rational discussion by principled people proceeding smoothly to the decision.
        Nothing is ever that smooth, that easy, and principled people fall out. The history of it is more turbulent than that.

        And so on. I was going to point out that principled, passionate John Pilger puts forthright contentious issues and opinions forward and gets a lot of flak which he must expect, but still gets very riled about.
        Whereas Josie puts forward the opinions of a nicely-brought-up middle class girl and is surprised at the flak she receives. It seems so wrong.

        I think the flak is because people who are passionate about Labour consider that her principled opinions are too wishy-washy and don’t reflect the unpleasant reality being experienced. The tone needs to be what will help to resurrect the recently flaccid ideals and drive of Labour to serve ‘the people’. Josie has an accolyte called Charlie who I think made a comment that Labour should wipe its slate clean and start off afresh.

        That approach is indicative of the idea that has become accepted by many activists, that subversives stole Labour and its cultural capital. We are now supposed to be subservient to the asset strippers who purloined it and sold it for a mess of potage. Well that’s why kids need breakfasts in school now, and we need the other things we had replaced, which we know will have to be insisted on, strongly, for a lengthy time.

        We have been left with the mess, not much potage, and Josie is concerned about it. (A light hand touches the brow of the needy and kind words of rebuke are spoken in a well-modulated voice that will largely be ignored by those in positions of wealth, privilege and comfort.)

        • Tracey 21.1.1.1
          21 November 2014 at 4:21 pm

          You may be right…

          She just comes across as

          A. Certain her view is right and anything else is disaster,
          B. Cannot handle being disagreed with by people on her “team”

          Her self awareness crack made me smile. Oh the irony

    • Bill 21.2
      19 November 2014 at 5:23 pm

      Jeezuz wept!

      Just read through that and…aw fuck, the short version. The Standard has authors ranging from anarchist to rather conservative social democrat, and yet she spouts on about a seemingly somewhat malevolent consensus on the standard!

      Your bloggers demand that the Labour Party purge itself of people on the left with views that differ from the consensus on the Standard; and in worse case scenarios, you guys dish out life time bans.

      As an aside, I neither know what it means, nor am I comfortable with this “Your bloggers”, but hey.

      (p.s Well said, Jenny Kirk – over on Pundit)

    • adam 21.3
      19 November 2014 at 6:25 pm

      Does Pagani think we hold grudges because we fight hard?

      Tracy and I had a go at each other yesterday, but that was yesterday – we disagreed – but guess what, we agree on more than we disagree, so I’m not going to fight with her again just for the hell of it. And anyway I respect Tracy – so what we disagree occasionally, it’s politics not tiddlywinks.

      Same with Te Reo Putake, we have butted heads, it does not mean I disrespect his opinion or not like what he writes. We disagree on the finer point – That’s life, I’m not perfect, nor feel the desire to be right all the time.

      What does Pagani think, that we sit in front our little computers thinking all the other posters here are just fodder for our egos? Please, we argue hard because we are passionate people – it sounds rough, because that is the medium.

      Please Pagani if you read this, I disagree with you on many occasions, because I think you’re a neo-liberal apologist. I also think you come across in the media as a Fox liberal. But, I respect you for standing up for women’s rights in politics.

      • Tracey 21.3.1
        20 November 2014 at 12:57 pm

        Back at you.

        We wont all agree all the time and tempers fray but pagani is incredibly sensitive to anyone who doesnt agree with her way…

  22. BLiP 22
    19 November 2014 at 5:16 pm

    . . . it’s not easy to sort out which secret messaging tools offer true security and which ones might be snake oil. So I turned to two experts — Joseph Bonneau at Princeton and Peter Eckersley at the Electronic Frontier Foundation — for advice about what to look for in encryption tools. Working together, we chose seven technical criteria on which to rank encryption tools . . .

    http://www.propublica.org/article/privacy-tools-the-best-encrypted-messaging-programs

  23. geoff 23
    19 November 2014 at 7:46 pm

    Andrew Geddis’ piece on Pundit is not only partisan (he admits that) but it’s also just plain wrong.
    The crux of his argument being that the union affiliates vote is somehow illegitimate because it is the….”influence of a handful of individuals acting under instructions.”

    So according to Geddis, the votes that ultimately come from the aggregation of union members votes is illegitimate. He repeats the li(n)e that the likes of Hooton have been spouting, that those votes have come under the instruction of the ‘union bosses’.

    In contrast, what I don’t hear Geddis saying is..’Gee, the union vote for Little was really high, that might mean they think he’s good. Seeing as they know Little in action better than anyone else then maybe what the unions think of him is kinda important and perhaps more legitimate than either the caucus or the member votes because they know the least about Little?’

    Geddis really should have just kept his post to ‘I’m pissed that my buddy lost’ instead of making up a bunch of bullshit.

    • Foreign waka 23.1
      19 November 2014 at 8:06 pm

      By extension, one could say that the country club that voted for Mr English and the Business Roundtable voting for Key have also somehow an illegitimate tone to it.
      Do they think that union members have no brains? How insulting, but hardly surprising.

    • RedBaronCV 23.2
      19 November 2014 at 9:24 pm

      Poor old Andrew. I always though individuals acting under instruction was the whole of the Right wing.

  24. Pat O'Dea 24
    19 November 2014 at 7:58 pm

    ‘

    LIAR!

    Privatised social housing to benefit tenants

    “Housing Corp was a poor performer and about a third of its housing stock was the wrong size, in poor condition and in the wrong place. That stock was worth about $5 billion and it was $5 b being wasted.”
    BILL ENGLISH

    Housing NZ’s annual report out today directly contradicts the Government’s claim that one-third of its houses are in the WRONG place and are the wrong size.
    PHIL TWYFORD

    “The annual report states 96 per cent of STATE houses are in the right places to meet demand, and 89 per cent have the right number of bedrooms.

    “Bill English and Paula Bennett have been going around saying one-third of state houses are in the wrong place or are the wrong size. But Housing NZ’s own figures show this to be a nonsense. They’ve been making up the numbers to justify their plan to sell off thousands of state houses.”
    PHIL TWYFORD

    Govt. caught out. Twyford

    So why did Bill English feel the need to lie in the first place?

    This is my take on the matter;

    National’s planned $7billion privatisation of State Houses is because of the criminal greed of the rentier class who National are the political representatives of.
    Which gives the explanation of why they need to lie to the majority of us who don’t belong to that select group of parasites, landlords, speculators, and property developers who all seek to gain, and who donate to the National Party.

    • Murray Rawshark 24.1
      20 November 2014 at 1:14 am

      The NAct party acts on behalf of parasites. It used to act on behalf of farmers, small business people, small manufacturers, etc. Those days have long gone and were doomed once the first ACT government started acting for finance capital. They pushed NAct even further, to the point where they ended up acting for thieves, swindlers, vultures and parasites. Those guys are really ashprishnul.

  26. les 26
    19 November 2014 at 8:25 pm

    Jeremy Wells on form today..as usual.

  27. goodsweat 27
    19 November 2014 at 9:56 pm

    Up until the age of about 16 I believed with all my heart that John Lennon was right. All we needed to live in a harmonious world was an all encompassing love for each other.

    The more I read, the more movies I saw I began to chortle at the naïve outlook of my youth. ‘Just love? Ha, wise up and smell the phosphorous burning on flesh stoopid.’

    Now that I’m running down 60 I’ve gone full circle. I’m back to thinking that Lennon was right. It’s very hard to fly a drone in and annihilate the family that welcomed you into their home and shared dinner with you the night before.

  28. lprent 28
    19 November 2014 at 9:59 pm

    Wow, the UPS’es are paying for themselves tonight. I keep having micro outages less than a second in extent. 4 so far. Enough for the lights to flicker and the UPS to have time to beep.

    The Standard keeps running.

    • lprent 28.1
      19 November 2014 at 10:01 pm

      Running around. One of the servers, the one without a UPS is off – I might leave that one off for the moment..

      The microwave has reset its clock.

  29. Rodel 29
    19 November 2014 at 10:22 pm

    National’s real CV.
    Thought this was an interesting voice in the media wilderness and something 20017 voters should hear. 2014 voters obviously didn’t hear it.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11319649

    • Tracey 29.1
      22 November 2014 at 3:39 pm

      Deserves a full link and a post in its own right in my opinion.

      • srylands 29.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 4:10 pm

        What bullshit.

        The 2008 PREFU – i.e before National took over pointed to a catastrophic decade of deficits.

        http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/forecasts/prefu2008

        This has been turned around. Much more slowly than I would advocate, but the Government wanted to avoid austerity which would have impacted on the poor – you know the people you cry crocodile tears over.

        You have no idea.

        • Tracey 29.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 4:22 pm

          This from the man who thinks the springbok tour passed key by, when key has said he doesnt remember which side he was on, and then said eventually said probably pro tour.

          Your selective use of reports by the finance ministers prior employer makes you look more foolish than i ever thought you could.

        • Draco T Bastard 29.1.1.2
          22 November 2014 at 4:34 pm

          Strange, I could have sworn that we now have the biggest government debt and that we’re still going to be growing that debt out to about 2020. All because of National’s economic mismanagement.

          • Tracey 29.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2014 at 4:54 pm

            As we often do when nationals self proclaimed expert money managers have finished with treasury benches.

  30. Ffloyd 30
    19 November 2014 at 10:34 pm

    God bless Dave Dobbyn. A truly wonderful friend to the Pike River families. Now one of the whole family. A beautiful anthem.

  31. greywarshark 31
    20 November 2014 at 1:44 pm

    Just thinking – does anyone remember the regular bulletin called the Jobs Newsletter that gradually faded no doubt as time and personal jobs got more pressing? It seems that we need it more than ever.