Open mike 20/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 20th, 2020 - 212 comments
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212 comments on “Open mike 20/08/2020 ”

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  1. Tricledrown 1
    20 August 2020 at 6:21 am

    Chris Bishop's father opinion piece on stuff is full of factual inaccuracies.

    Saying Muldoon loaded next generations with huge debt's raising the top tax rate.

    Yet Muldoon left office leaving $1 billion in debt over 9 years.

    Roger Douglas gave us tax cuts and $16 billion in debt over 6 yrs.

    Scaremongering false narratives.

    • Nic the NZer 1.1
      20 August 2020 at 8:21 am

      You should not judge *any* of our leaders on their public debt records. Its completely beside the point.

      https://larspsyll.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/rethinking-public-debt-2/

      • Tricledrown 1.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 11:32 am

        As Brian Easton pointed out years ago debt is not as bad as everyone makes out it's the ability to pay .

        Then it's better to go to improving productivity also going to mainstreet ie wage subsidies benefit top ups.

        The govt gets at least 15% back in GST plus taxes on the economic activity it creates.

        The Thatcher BS that economies should be run like a home budget is pure BS.

        If that was so most of the big economies would have fallen over years ago.

        • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1
          20 August 2020 at 6:19 pm

          Such views, even moderate ones like those of Brian Easton, are part of the problem. Its now pretty well understood that debts in a currency a government issues are never an issue. This is for two related reasons,

          1) the same government issueing the debt issues (and issued) every single unit of the currency the debt is repaid in. If it wants to repay the debt it can always issue more and transfer payment to the lender.

          2) In the same way it can make a payment to a lender it can also pay somebody it brought goods and services from. This means it doesn't need to issue further debt to make further payments. (Though in countries where this occurs including New Zealand its done to facilitate how monetary policy is implemented).

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2
        20 August 2020 at 1:04 pm

        The real issue … is not whether it is possible to shift a burden (either in the present or in the future) from some people to other people, but whether it is possible by internal borrowing to shift a real burden from the present generation, in the sense of the present economy as a whole, onto a future generation, in the sense of the future economy as a whole … The latter is impossible because a project that uses up resources needs the resources at the time that it uses them up, and not before or after.

        Yep, its physically impossible to pay for things later as the resources need to be provided now.

        And the government already owns all of the nation's resources which is why they can create money as needed and there be no debt. The problem of debt only applies when the private banks create the money or the government, on the nation's behalf, borrows from another country.

        • Nic the NZer 1.1.2.1
          20 August 2020 at 6:05 pm

          The country obviously does not already own all the resources. For example you are not compelled to work for the government nor even is any public sector employee.

          For the most part even the USSR didn't have conscripted labour (with some notable well known exceptions).

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1.1
            20 August 2020 at 8:44 pm

            Obviously, I didn't include people in 'resources'.

            Still, the money that the government can pay will, generally speaking, get people who can do the job required to make the nations resources available.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    20 August 2020 at 6:32 am

    Two months after the horse bolted, the govt has slammed the stable door:

    the Government announced a new team to oversee issues at the border. Helen Clark’s former chief of staff Heather Simpson and NZTA board chair Brian Roche have been brought in to oversee the changes. The Government has also boosted the number of Defence staff involved in the Covid-19 response.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300085944/coronavirus-ashley-bloomfield-must-front-parliament-on-border-issues-national-urges

    Better late than never. Nat health spokesperson wants an explanation for the late reaction – to discern why the cover-up succeeded for so long, I presume.

    Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield needs to answer questions about lacklustre border testing before Parliament’s health select committee, says National’s health spokesman Shane Reti.

    Reti wants Parliament's health select committee to reconvene to question Bloomfield about the lack of testing at the border. “I have sent a letter to chair of the committee Louisa Wall, asking for the committee to reconvene and review the Covid-19 response, and requesting that Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield appears before the committee for questioning,” Reti said.

    I trust Bloomfield will be honest, if this happens. "Yes, I appointed managers for each relevant operational sphere involved, and issued them instructions on how to set up the procedures. No, I can't explain why some failed – you'll have to ask them. No, I can't explain why they didn't tell me they failed. Yes, I may have been given false assurances by some of them."

    He may even go on to explain that the public service proceeds via a random walk: some serve, some screw up, some don't feel like doing anything much at all, but they are all part of the privilege system of governance, so they can always hide from the public…

    • Just Is 3.1
      20 August 2020 at 8:41 am

      Whats the relationship between the supposed failed testing regime and the current outbreak, thus far their is no link to any border failure.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 8:56 am

        Red herring. The govt gave the public service the job of protecting the public from further infestation, hence cabinet's directive weeks ago, and their irritation that the appropriate measures were not instituted.

        The part of the situation that you aren't recognising is public confidence in govt operations – and the undermining of that by performance failures. Do you need to have Labour drop below 50 and National leap above 40 in the next poll to get the message? Could happen. Paranoia strikes deep…

        • Just Is 3.1.1.1
          20 August 2020 at 9:18 am

          The part of the situation you're not realising is that NZ is STILL THE SAFEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY wth regard to the Virus.

          Every other country wishes they could've achieved the results we have, but they didn't want to do the hard yards.

          The whole "Failure" meme is a politicization of a very dangerous pandemic that NZ just happens to be at the forefront of controlling, we have global recognition for our efforts, those who wish to berate the Govt for achieving the results thus far should go and climb back under the rock they've hiding under for the last 5 months.

          Realativity is important.

          As yet THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN THE CURRENT OUTBREAK and the border controls

          • ScottGN 3.1.1.1.1
            20 August 2020 at 9:27 am

            We get all that. Shouting it every single time isn’t really progressing the discussion.
            No one is arguing about the country’s marvellous success and brilliant leadership to date.

            But Dennis and I have been interested to consider the POLITICAL implications of the information that has been revealed about the situation at the borders. An election still has to be fought with hearts and minds won or at least held. To that end the missteps (perceived or otherwise) of the last week will have most likely made that endeavour more difficult for the government.

            • Anne 3.1.1.1.1.1
              20 August 2020 at 10:07 am

              … the missteps (perceived or otherwise) of the last week will have most likely made that endeavour more difficult for the government.

              I doubt it will have a meaningful outcome for Labour's election chances provided of course they manage to contain the latest outbreak.

              Having said that I agree the apparent 'missteps' need to be publicly debated and when the time is right… a review into all aspects of the pandemic response so that any mistakes and missteps are unlikely to happen again.

              It is more about the future than the here and now.

              • ScottGN …
                20 August 2020 at 10:34 am

                I agree Anne. The last week probably won’t derail the government’s election chances at all. But my worry is that the Nats have been given a golden opportunity to prosecute their narrative that the government is good at the talk but not so good at the walk. I’d prefer them not to have those opportunities.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  20 August 2020 at 10:53 am

                  I'm not as worried as you and Dennis appear to be – the opposition National party is all talk (their 'walk' has always been self-serving), and everytime Collins raises an eyebrow, or Brownlee goes off half-cocked on one of his crazy conspiracy jags, or Woodhouse trips over another homeless man, it's just one more reminder not to trust them.

                  Trust (not trusts) is the main issue for me this election.

            • AB 3.1.1.1.1.2
              20 August 2020 at 10:09 am

              I'm hoping most voters are mature enough to realise that their own workplaces are simply and inevitably a sequence of missteps masquerading as planning. And that this is general across all human organisations. Knowing this, they may focus on intent – that it's actually not entirely about the delivery, important though that is. What matters instead is Labour's courageous (and correct) choice of a hard elimination policy – a decision National would have been ideologically unable to make.

          • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.2
            20 August 2020 at 9:30 am

            Realativity is important.

            Yes, and I know it's a good idea to acknowledge the upside of our situation. A balanced view of the ups & downs is always best.

            The thing about waiting for science to establish links is that the public mood gets shifted by paranoia way more than by science.

            The failure meme occurred at press conferences when the PM & DG separately acknowledged it as fact. Do you really want to accuse them of berating the govt??

            • McFlock 3.1.1.1.2.1
              20 August 2020 at 3:14 pm

              The thing about waiting for science to establish links is that the public mood gets shifted by paranoia way more than by science.

              Your efforts in that regard are unceasing.

          • Shanreagh 3.1.1.1.3
            20 August 2020 at 9:47 am

            Agree Just Is, to conflate what has been happening re testing on the border with the current set of cases in Auckland which have not been linked to the border is definitely not a red herring.

            At the moment they are two different sets of issues.

            What is noticeable to me, and I mentioned this yesterday after seeing Digby Webb stating that there had been 60% declines to be tested, is that 60% declines is skewed. I asked if there was a cultural issue that I was not picking up on. It appears that these border people were offered vouchers, aah bless such a right wing answer to the issue, to get tested at Community testing sites, presumably in their own time.

            I had thought this testing would have been done on site, with records kept of the declines and why. If more than one decline then a suggestion to the employer that the person be shifted somewhere else.

            To me, now, this is a case of a slack private enterprise who were in charge of the guards at hotels etc and I am glad they are now being replaced. It appears that the employers of these guards do not have a tight control of them and it is wise to replace them with public service people who are used to the sort of command and control regime that is needed.

            Surely the DG of Health can be excused having a misplaced trust in these private sector employers, especially if they are constantly reassuring him 'yes, yes they are being tested when all that was happening was that vouchers were being handed out.

            Hopefully Roche & Simpson will be looking at this. In some cases it seems we cannot trust private enterprise and this may be/is one of them.

            Agree though with ScottGN the implications this has for the election can not be overstated. This plus the over-extension of the election date (2 weeks would have been ample) has given me an uneasy feeling that we have just given the Nats a bounty, that hopefully Lab is not about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

          • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1.4
            20 August 2020 at 10:18 am

            Agreed Just Is.

            As usual Dennis is, rather pathetically, buying into the media hype that calls the border controls a "fiasco" today when they are nothing of the sort.

            • Just Is 3.1.1.1.4.1
              20 August 2020 at 10:27 am

              Thankyou

              The hype is a distraction from reality.

            • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.4.2
              20 August 2020 at 11:12 am

              Try to trandscend your inner binary, huh? I quoted Ben Thomas yesterday from his Spinoff analysis that criticised the Nats' inept attempt to exploit the failure. If a known rightist can transcend the binary, why can't you?

              My critique has not resembled the Nats' bullshit in the slightest. Their leader called it a total shambles. I acknowledged yesterday that it was merely partial.

              Since I was proceeding on the basis of the admissions from the PM and DG, my critique is valid. I don't get why any leftists see political advantage in retreating in denial. Labour aren't. Learn from them!

              • Ed1 …
                20 August 2020 at 1:12 pm

                I agree that we should learn from facts as they appear. The admission from Ardern and Bloomfield were that testing had not been at the level the government had asked for. That is quite a different issue from accusations of a breach of the border. It now appears that the infection of the maintenance worker was from the surface in a lift – possibly inadequate 'deep cleaning' of the lift, but also possibly an indication that the depth of cleaning and possibility of infection from surfaces has not been well understood – it may be that we should all be wearing gloves. That remains a possibility also for the larger Auckland cluster, which may have resulted from the surface of imported goods. If so again that may mean that changes to practices will be needed for a risk that has previously been discounted as being very low.

                Certainly we seem to have got that cluster tracked very well; so nothing really wrong with our border procedures in terms of the known risks until these two cases – do you agree, Dennis?

              • Just Is …
                20 August 2020 at 2:12 pm

                Dennis, the Govt stated it was "disappointed" that the testing regime wasn't as they expected, but reality is, there are no consequences of the lower than expected testing regime, the testing was a backstop for all the measures currently in place which appear to be operating as expected.

                Too much emphasis has been placed on the lower than expected rate of testing rather than reiterating the primary defences that prevent/catch the infections. which have been 100% successful so far.

                No ones retreating, just reinstating what is factual and what is hyperbole pursued by a few in the media with an axe to grind.

                Each day at 1, 2 reporters with the loudest voices keep reiterating the "failure" meme, the "gothcha" girls, Tova and Mackay, each day they are proveded with the same info, which they duely ignore and persist with the failure meme.

                Sure testing wasn't upto the expected levels, but there has been no negative outcomes as a result of this, which means it "cannot be defined as a failure"

        • Incognito 3.1.1.2
          20 August 2020 at 10:39 am

          One person’s red herring is another person’s red flag.

        • Gabby 3.1.1.3
          20 August 2020 at 12:39 pm

          Imperfection isn't failure. You should know that, of all people.

          • Just Is 3.1.1.3.1
            20 August 2020 at 2:24 pm

            Exactly.

            There is a learning curve for all of us, we all learn best from our mistakes, it also makes us more conscious of preventing any further errors.

    • Gabby 3.2
      20 August 2020 at 12:36 pm

      He'll probably feel obliged not to expose the gnatsy leaning MOH saboteurs and empire builders, and private sector profiteers unfortunately.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.3
      20 August 2020 at 1:08 pm

      Can you just fuck off with your conspiracy theories? You're starting to sound like Gerry Brownlee.

      Oh, and the answer is this:

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1258168742971756547

  4. Andre 4
    20 August 2020 at 6:35 am

    💋 💋 💋

    Needy Amin has been crushing hard on Poots for a long long time. The Senate Intelligence Committee got some of his old billets-doux and published them in their report on Russia-Drumpf cmpaign jiggery-pokery.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-putin-fan-mail_n_5f3c91aec5b6835236037b4c

    Seriously, is this what has to be done to get ahead in high-level international business?

    🤢 🤮

  5. Observer Tokoroa 5
    20 August 2020 at 8:03 am

    Twisted Reti

    You came out with this miserable low line: "I trust Bloomfield will be honest",

    In doing that, you gave us the measure of your low ability.

    Quite simply, you have become yet another National bully.

    New Zealanders will not be happy with your abuse towards Dr bloomfield.

    • Chess Player 5.1
      20 August 2020 at 8:39 am

      New Zealanders simply want what has been promised, to actually happen.

      Am amazed that the politicians still don't seem to understand that concept.

      It's all about the follow through, and the delivery.

      Trust takes a long time to build up, but can be lost very very quickly.

      People remember, which is why Labour were not trusted for such a long time after the Rogernomics period.

      • CAnker the pig fucker 5.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 9:51 am

        Chess player off course we want what has been promised and follow through. So did Ardern, Hipkins, and cabinet. They are in the same position as we are. They were told that testing border staff has been rolled out…………and it was being rolled out, but the roll out was too slow.

        • new view 5.1.1.1
          20 August 2020 at 3:43 pm

          FFS. Anker. How hard would it have been for the Government to audit what was happening at these Hotels. Do they trust us to pay our taxes. No they check that we are. Saying that they told us it was being done, so we didn’t know, is infantile bollocks.

      • Tricledrown 5.1.2
        20 August 2020 at 11:45 am

        Because the Cloth cap Labour Party had been highjacked by the Business elite.

        Every govt is having similar problems we are relying on human's to beat this virus.

        Humans make mistakes just looking across the ditch private security contractors are having similar problems..

        Taiwan is the only country which has had a nearly perfect response.

        One of the reasons is that authorities have access to everyone's cell phone records for contact tracing.

        Chess player how would that go check it out mate don't just be a pawn running interference.Your move.

    • Just Is 5.2
      20 August 2020 at 8:50 am

      Reti might want to remind everyone that NZ has only had 22 deaths ascociated with Coronavirus, that's an indisputable fact.

      There is still no link to a failure at the border and the current outbreak.

      Can you imagine how things would be going right now if Reti were minister of Health, history indicates we would be down the same path as every other country.

      • Pataua4life 5.2.1
        20 August 2020 at 8:55 am

        What has Dr Reti done in the past that shows us we would be down this path.

        Please link.

        • Just Is 5.2.1.1
          20 August 2020 at 9:26 am

          Reti hasn't achieved anything at all, all those yrs under Key and the constituency he covers saw reduced public sevices, a hospital that needed replacing a decade ago and run into the ground.

          Claims his party had funded and planned the 4 lane highway to Whangarei are just outright lies.

          National do NOT have a reputation for looking after the needs of NZers, they do however have a reputation for looking after themselves.

          • Tricledrown 5.2.1.1.1
            20 August 2020 at 9:31 am

            Cutting DHB funding cutting mental health funding in Canterbury in the aftermath of the earthquakes

          • Kay 5.2.1.1.2
            20 August 2020 at 10:46 am

            This is by no means an endorsement of Reti (he's still a Nat) but he was extremely good in his HSC role tearing shreds out of Pharmac, Medsafe and the MoH over the ongoing lamotrigine scandal. His medical background was actually useful and he did his job. And he was also the ONLY MP who ever directly responded to our emails.

            • Just Is 5.2.1.1.2.1
              20 August 2020 at 2:29 pm

              Thats great to hear Kay.

              I was of the understanding that Pharmac had been severely underfunded by the then Govt, which led to a lot misery for people waiting on medications.

        • CAnker the pig fucker 5.2.1.2
          20 August 2020 at 9:55 am

          Reti may or may not be good. But his leader appears to not understand some pretty basic things e.g contract tracing and the Covid app and how it works, as per her interview on Radio NZ yesterday. She seemed to be pinning Nationals ability to manage Covid all on Reti, who has only recently been made shadow health minister. She sounded quite ignorant in my opinion.

          Gerry's performance has been alarming. Their strong team slogan surely must be meant ironically

    • greywarshark 5.3
      20 August 2020 at 11:27 am

      Chris T has done a post on Reti over at The Daily Blog OT. I haven't read it yet but will. I thought you could be interested in his opinion of the man, I hadn't had good vibes about him in the past.

  6. Uncle Scrim 6
    20 August 2020 at 8:16 am

    Have the Herald released the actual results of their latest Kantar poll? I only saw the bit about who Labour should govern with. Based on that and Claire Trevett’s latest story, clearly the poll put Labour over 50% again, as have the last 9 (?) polls – even though in part at least it would have covered the latest lockdown period.

  8. Robert Guyton 8
    20 August 2020 at 8:38 am

    Collins' promotion and praising of Dr. Reti might be strategic – perhaps he's being groomed for the top Nat role, sometime down the track.

  9. ScottGN 9
    20 August 2020 at 8:55 am

    5,000 seventeen year olds will turn eighteen in the extra month provided by the delayed election date and will be eligible to vote.

    About 2,800 people will die in the same month, presumably mostly older people.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122471241/about-5000-young-people-now-eligible-to-vote-after-delay-to-2020-election

    • Blackcap 9.1
      20 August 2020 at 9:00 am

      However in that time the rest will all get older and potentially change their political views?

    • Adrian 9.2
      20 August 2020 at 9:04 am

      A report ( Stuff ? ) yesterday stated that there were 1600 less deaths in NZ in the months since lockdown than the average for the same period of the last 10 years, with accompanying graphs explaining why.

      Incredible, absolutely incredible ! The only country in the world to do such an amazing thing so it is about time that all the whining "FAILURE " fanboys just shut the fuck up.

    • ScottGN 9.3
      20 August 2020 at 9:17 am

      I fully support lowering the voting age to 16 but I think it’s drawing a long bow to suggest that the 5k newly eligible teenagers would have been disenfranchised by the original Election Day as suggested in the article. Obviously a voting day has to be chosen and obviously anyone whose birthday falls just after that is going to miss out until the next election. 18 or 16 it doesn’t really matter.

      • Just Is 9.3.1
        20 August 2020 at 9:48 am

        Scott

        Young people of today are way better informed than previous generations, social media and the like are part of everyday life.

        The young people of today are our future of tomorrow.

        • ScottGN 9.3.1.1
          20 August 2020 at 10:40 am

          I work with a lot of that twenty something cohort. And, yes, if you push them their thinking generally aligns with what we would call a centre-left perspective (though it’s always surprising just how many think like their grandparents). The problem is most of them feel disenfranchised. I’m not sure how many of my lot will actually bother to vote but it won’t be very many.

      • Herodotus 9.3.2
        20 August 2020 at 11:07 am

        So you would allow 16 year olds all the "rights" of 17 and18 year olds and the consequences that go with these ?

        http://youthlaw.co.nz/rights/legal-ages/#:~:text=18%20Years,once%20you've%20turned%2018.

        And from your comment below "The problem is most of them feel disenfranchised." Many other than this group feel this way.

  10. ianmac 10
    20 August 2020 at 9:46 am

    All the talk of failure is in denial of what the experts think. Susie for example:

    "I would give the response an A+. Or how do they do it nowadays? Excellence," Siouxsie Wiles, a microbiologist and infectious diseases expert at the University of Auckland, said.

    "It's been incredible. Absolutely incredible. The ramping up of testing and the amount of contact tracing that's going on is absolutely phenomenal."

    For once Marc gives a fairer report.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/covid-19-one-week-on-how-are-we-doing?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=96e4c1d5ea-Daily+Briefing+20.8.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-96e4c1d5ea-95522477

    • greywarshark 10.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:32 am

      I love Souxie, she's a bright spot literally in grey times and tells it like it is, a presenter to take notice of.

    • McFlock 10.2
      20 August 2020 at 3:22 pm

      That's the thing – all this wanking on about "shambles" this and "failure" that leaves nothing to describe the response in many other parts of the developed world.

  11. Just Is 11
    20 August 2020 at 9:58 am

    ianmac

    Its Great to have a Reality Check.

    Negative politicization of this one in a hundred yr Global Pandemic in NZ is simple bullshit, not a single critic can produce a remedy that is an improvement on what has been achieved thus far.

    Anyone arguing they'd do a better job is full of it, this whole excersise has been developed as we go, the whole world is in a learning phase, we just happen to be near the top of the list for our methods and respones.

  12. Dv 12
    20 August 2020 at 10:14 am

    Yes i see ACT are planning to save money by having a brand new govt dept for covid

  13. esoteric pineapples 13
    20 August 2020 at 10:29 am

    An excellent article for anyone wanting to dig deeper into the Beirut explosion:

    "Ammonium nitrate is quite stable, making it one of the safest explosives used in mining. Fire normally won’t set it off. It becomes highly explosive only if contaminated – for instance by oil – or heated to a point where it undergoes chemical changes that produce a sort of impermeable cocoon around it in which oxygen can build up to a dangerous level where an ignition can cause an explosion.

    Why, after sleeping in Hangar 12 for seven years, did this pile suddenly feel an itch to explode?"

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/escobar-who-profits-beirut-blast?fbclid=IwAR1JG0K3InJFvfngKPTMjeVme9upCyaw7F1kVSsU_TGF2rNGI6lSAzqJLP4

    • greywarshark 13.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:34 am

      Gosh I didn't know that it was stable normally. A few conspiracy theories starting to float around that I noticed.

    • joe90 13.2
      20 August 2020 at 11:47 am

      An excellent article for anyone wanting to dig deeper into the Beirut explosion:

      tl;dr

      It wuz the Juice!

      /

      • Morrissey 13.2.1
        23 August 2020 at 1:47 pm

        The outlaw Israeli regime is not "the Juice", as you so coyly, and unamusingly, term them.

    • Gabby 13.3
      20 August 2020 at 12:49 pm

      The middle east is quite warm.

    • McFlock 13.4
      20 August 2020 at 3:29 pm

      For one thing, there are so many recordings of it because the warehouse was on fire before the main explosion. Who knows what else was stored at the warehouse? Gas cylinders, mining explosives, confiscated weapons, chemicals that make each other angry?

      We do know the fertiliser was stored inappropriately. By definition, almost. So maybe there was additional contamination from being stored inappropriately? How hot did the warehouse get inside? Demonstrate there was something more than a freight handling accident elsewhere in the warehouse before speculating about motive.

    • gsays 13.5
      20 August 2020 at 5:56 pm

      Good read, cheers EP.

  14. Mika 14
    20 August 2020 at 10:35 am

    One very commendable announcement yesterday was the move to reduce the employment of security staff at the MIQ facilities by private security contractors. This particular change was a little bit lost in the attention given to the increase in defence force staffing at the sites.

    Ardern announced that these staff would be brought into employment by MBIE, allowing security of employment, a living wage, training in infection control and prevention practices. It also means that these staff will not be rotating around multiple workplaces.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/423911/managed-isolation-and-quarantine-facilities-to-get-boost-in-defence-force-support

    The Victorian outbreak originated with breaches in infection practices at their isolation hotels, with low paid, casualised, untrained privatised security staff who socialised with the returnees.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12345261

    I see this as a really good example of how the gig economy, privatisation, casualisation of the workforce and a race to the bottom in employment practices can have a devastating impact on public health.

    • Just Is 14.1
      20 August 2020 at 10:48 am

      Private businesses are run for profit, and, for no other reason.

      "I see this as a really good example of how the gig economy, privatisation, casualisation of the workforce and a race to the bottom in employment practices can have a devastating impact on public health."

      Not only public health, but the Health of the economy and the Health of Indivduals working under those conditions.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 14.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 11:59 am

        And I expect the cost of paying the living wage will be negligible, because they are at the same time dropping the payment of a profit margin to the private owners of the security firms.

    • Rosemary McDonald 14.2
      20 August 2020 at 11:19 am

      Ardern announced that these staff would be brought into employment by MBIE,

      I missed that bit…it will be almost like performing a miracle. The contracting out to private companies of core Government work has to stop. The Ministry of Health did this with almost the entirety of Disability Support Services work….from assessments to delivery of care and support. A bountiful trough that literally hundreds fed at. And as 'costs' increased and 'operating surpluses' are viciously protected and providers team up to negotiate valuable contracts with the Ministry the services provided to disabled people often fail to meet the standard required. People die.

      This is touted as 'efficiency'.

    • gsays 14.3
      20 August 2020 at 5:58 pm

      Well said.

  15. Just Is 15
    20 August 2020 at 10:40 am

    It appears NSW has had several infections that have No origin, heres the story from the Sydney Morning Herald.

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/more-mystery-cases-of-covid-19-confirmed-in-nsw-as-the-state-records-seven-cases-20200819-p55nb5.html

    So, all this berating by the opposition and Media, it appears we are not alone over the mystery cases, maybe the media could keep Kiwis better informed, maybe.

  16. AB 16
    20 August 2020 at 10:43 am

    An irony.

    Ardern's exceptional response to the pandemic is doing a good job of protecting and enabling the continuance of a BAU that works very well for the National Party's members donors and supporters.

    Whereas if National had been in power, their prioritisation of 'the economy' would have let the virus in, and given us worse health AND economic outcomes. Most likely, the resulting misery would have led to a hostile public mood more willing to entertain the sort of radical economic change that might disadvantage those same National Party members, donors and supporters.

    There will be a few more thoughtful theorists on the right who are delighted and amused by the fact that they get to attack her for saving them.

  17. mac1 17
    20 August 2020 at 11:03 am

    "…..these staff would be brought into employment…. allowing security of employment, a living wage, training……."

    What a pity that the nation's farmers, orchardists and viticulturists can't do the same for tractor drivers, milkers, workers in general, using NZ citizens.

    Where's the plan for those industries to solve their hiring problems with decent wages, training, housing, tenure and prospects?

    I worked willingly as a farm worker back in the Seventies, got trained on the job which was permanent, paid OK and had a house, firewood, free meat and power thrown in.

  18. mike appleboy 18
    20 August 2020 at 11:19 am

    Good god, watching Judith Collins press conference – the continual smirks and rolled eyes at questions is just pathetic. The woman has no filter for presenting her true self – that being an utter cow.

  19. greywarshark 19
    20 August 2020 at 11:23 am

    TS commenters might like to add to the pot that Scoop is providing for juicy ideas for NZ.

    https://thedig.nz/transitional-democracy/what-do-we-mean-by-transitional-democracy/

    • Dennis Frank 19.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:59 am

      Excellent link, thanks! 👍

      Just as turkeys will not vote for Christmas, politicians on most points on the ideological spectrum appear to be loath to hand over any real power to citizens. This means that if we want to upgrade our democracy in New Zealand, it is up to us all to drive this change both from within and outside of the established political system.

  20. ScottGN 20
    20 August 2020 at 11:24 am

    Did Judith say if any law change would be required in order for the government to be able to deny NZ citizens and PRs entry to the country if they returned a positive test?

    • George 20.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:27 am

      Frankly a completely pointless and useless idea.

      • ScottGN 20.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 11:37 am

        Of course. But as an idea it’s bound to be popular. So I’m trying to get an idea of how the government can pull it apart. If a law change is necessary then that means that nothing will change until at least xmas probably later. And just how much it infringes on NZers right to enter the country?

    • Treetop 20.2
      20 August 2020 at 3:14 pm

      So would a person need to wait for a result before boarding and isolate until they depart if negative?

      Would a person get a refund or be able to rebook if positive?

  21. observer 21
    20 August 2020 at 11:35 am

    The debate on the Right between authoritarian and libertarian has been refereed by Judith Collins – authoritarians win by a knockout.

    Now wait for the mental gymnastics as people who attack "dictator Jacinda" suddenly decide a heavy dose of compulsion and punishment is exactly what they want.

    • ScottGN 21.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:38 am

      Judith has never shied away from showing her authoritarian side though.

    • Draco T Bastard 21.2
      20 August 2020 at 1:31 pm

      Scratch a libertarian and you'll find an authoritarian beneath.

    • Macro 21.3
      23 August 2020 at 3:47 pm

      She Pulls No Punches.

      Just what the country needs in a PM.

      /sarc

      There are a few aggressive individuals who might see this as an admirable quality, but frankly over the past few years, what this country has needed has been a PM who has empathy and compassion, and the ability to get alongside people, and lead them in the right direction, (qualities that JC does not have). Fortunately we have a PM who displays these qualities on a daily basis.

  22. greywarshark 22
    20 August 2020 at 11:39 am

    Many are hoping that humanity and legality will get together and result in Julian Assange getting out while he is still alive!!

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/some-169-lawyers-and-legal-groups-join-calls-for-julian-assange-extradition-to-halt/

    Aug.17

    “We call on you to act in accordance with national and international
    law, human rights and the rule of law by bringing an end to the ongoing
    extradition proceedings and granting Mr Assange his long overdue
    freedom,” the letter, signed Lawyers for Assange, reads.

    The signatories include barrister Lord John Hendy QC and groups
    including the UK’s Arab Lawyers Association as well as the European
    Association of Lawyers for Democracy and World Human Rights.

    The letter said the political nature of Assange’s alleged offences
    prohibits his extradition under the US-UK extradition treaty and that UK
    judges in his case have been subject to conflicts of interest    .

  23. weka 23
    20 August 2020 at 11:46 am

    Just in case it wasn't obvious enough what National's kaupapa is,

    https://twitter.com/nz_voter/status/1296231356461006848

    • weka 23.1
      20 August 2020 at 11:46 am

      that, and they possibly have an inept social media/PR team.

    • Editractor 23.2
      20 August 2020 at 12:01 pm

      It's unbelievable that they think a bullet-proof vest will stop someone from being infected with SARS-CoV-2.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 23.3
      20 August 2020 at 12:03 pm

      Border Force Raptor for the WIN! Hopefully with life sentences for littering in an airport (at least on the third offence) and bundling of protesters into blacked-out vans by anonymous "security contractors"

      Tuff on the Crims! Vote National and join Trump's USA. Anyone keen on a spot of torture?

    • Tricledrown 23.4
      20 August 2020 at 12:06 pm

      Looking at Siouxsie Wiles post further down she has provided a graph comparing Victoria's response to their outbreak to ours going hard and early is way better.

      Maybe someone can provide a link.

  24. Pat 24
    20 August 2020 at 11:53 am

    A sidestep Beauden would be proud of…

    "National’s border policy doesn’t address international students. National’s former deputy leader, Nikki Kaye, had campaigned on allowing universities to take care of isolating students on arrival, rather than the Government.

    National Party Leader Judith Collins didn’t say she wanted to keep the virus out of New Zealand. Rather she said she wanted to “keep the virus at bay and allow our economy to thrive”.

    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/106640/nationals-border-policy-testing-entering-nz-compulsory-contact-tracing-arrivals-and

  25. aj 25
    20 August 2020 at 11:55 am

    Midweek Media Watch with Hayden Donnell last night was interesting (as was the prior interview with Dr Denis Muller, the senior research fellow at the Centre for Advancing Journalism in Melbourne.

    Is the NZ media taking control of the 'accountability narrative' for Covid-19?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018760261

    Hayden Donnell runs cover for journalists, and especially for Michael Morrah of Newshub. (He who asked Bloomfield at a presser recently if he would resign over 'failures')

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018760262

    What little sympathy I have for journalism in this country evaporated when a clip was played of Morrah being supported in an interview with Sean Plunkett (about 9 minutes in)

    Karyn Hay's long silences during this segment were telling.

    • Bearded Git 25.1
      20 August 2020 at 12:45 pm

      Thanks aj….I caught the end of Mediawatch last night and thought it was a bit odd…so the Right has taken over Mediawatch now. Will give the full programme a listen.

      Hayden will be quoting Tova next week.

  27. Just Is 27
    20 August 2020 at 12:17 pm

    Here's quite a good story on Swedens efforts to fight Coronavirus from the ABC.

    Herd amunity has not occured in the younger education sector.

    It will be years before there is an outcome to their strategy

    Death rates as a proportion of the population is nearly the highest in the world

    https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-20/swedens-herd-immunity-strategy-for-coronavirus-covid-19/12570918

  29. Dv 29
    20 August 2020 at 12:28 pm

    See trump is withering on about how Nz has a surge and how well he is doing.

    if the USA had the same infection rates as nz the would have 360 cases a day not 40000

    man trump can’t count

  30. joe90 30
    20 August 2020 at 12:55 pm

    Why wingnuts should never get the media oxygen they crave.

    https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/1295787945064927238

    • observer 31.1
      20 August 2020 at 2:28 pm

      One value might be …

      "Thanks to the virus, and the delayed election date, I have picked up an extra month's pay for doing nothing, which I will donate to local agencies helping those hit by the economic fallout."

      Show us your values, Hamish.

  32. aj 32
    20 August 2020 at 1:31 pm

    "I live by certain values"

    Honesty is not one of those values. Tell us who gave him the advice. He should never be in a place where he has access to personal data ever again.

  33. PaddyOT 33
    20 August 2020 at 1:48 pm

    [deleted]

    [see my note below in replies – weka]

    • Rosemary McDonald 33.1
      20 August 2020 at 3:15 pm

      Bogus? Harmful?

      I suggest you petition to have Dr Sandhya Ramanathan struck off.

      Seriously…you clearly didn't watch the entire clip, did you?

      And you quote commentors without providing the links?

      • PaddyOT 33.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 3:35 pm

        I did watch both videos full length and went to the sources of 'studies' underlying them.

    • weka 33.2
      20 August 2020 at 4:12 pm

      I started editing your comment for formatting reasons, to make it clear what were quote and what weren't. Unfortunately none of the things you had in quotation marks were showing up in a google search, so I can't check them.

      You are welcome to post your comment again, but I'm going to ask that you do a few things:

      1. link to the TS conversation you are referring to as well as the two videos.

      2. if you are not doing a cut and paste, then please don't use quotation marks. Use some other way of signalling what you are trying to communicate (italics would probably work).

      3. link to your sources in line with the quote or example, or use numbers, or something so it's clear what is what.

      4. put a line break between your points so the text is easier to read.

      You probably have some important points to bring to the debate, but I don't want to have to spend so much time just making sense of the formatting and references before I even get to think about the content.

      I still have copy of your comment if you don't. If you want to redo it, I can email it to you.

      • weka 33.2.1
        20 August 2020 at 4:20 pm

        there's a further problem. You use quotes around some statements and appear to imply they are from TS, but I can't find those quotes anywhere on TS.

      • PaddyOT 33.2.2
        20 August 2020 at 5:33 pm

        1. link to the TS conversation you are referring to.

        This was not the point. Over time have been a number of commentators.
        The comments were examples of masses of commentary on social media platforms endorsing hypothesis floating out there.

        The further leap in comments to stating that named supplements were treatments for Moari and Polynesian people is dangerous.
        My post was to highlight harmful interpretations planted in very publically read spaces; an example is of how the chain of information of President Trump's disinfectant theory went viral and posed real harm.

        The " bogus" is WHO's and other expert Authority's calls on myths. Not mine. The direct links posted. That at such a time of a disease rampaging across the globe, unscrutinised myths of treatments were the reason for WHO'S publication as one of many Authority's directives calling for scrutiny of myths around Covid19.

        2. if you are not doing a cut and paste, then please don't use quotation marks. Use some other way of signalling what you are trying to communicate (italics would probably work).

        Once pasted my post loses bold or italics. The formatting tools in TS reply box then allowed on both mobile and desktop versions only single word by word highlight to enable formatting. Hence, the standard, correct quotation marks are there.

        Direct quotes from the research cited WERE cut and paste and " " quotation marks were put around them correctly.

        3. link to your sources in line with the quote or example, or use numbers, or something so it's clear what is what.

        I have done before. But I followed the standard of many commentators by putting links at the bottom.

        4. put a line break between your points so the text is easier to read.

        My post was constructed on "word" then , all was pasted.
        Once in the reply box I did carefully check and fix formatting. And checked or corrected line breaks.

        Line breaks were there and once posted in entirety were still there.

        There is then left a clear choice on yourself to eliminate correct information from a much read sphere because of formatting and punctuation; of which, when I viewed after posting was correct.

        • weka 33.2.2.1
          20 August 2020 at 6:44 pm

          a few further suggestions

          1. make it clear that you are referring to social media generally if that's what you are referencing.

          2. once you have clicked Submit Comment, check it on the site and then use the edit button. I think it's set to 10 mins at the moment.

          3. cut and pasting from applications into the comments is fraught. I'd suggest writing your comment in plain text and adding any formatting once you are in the comment box

          4. I'll check the quotes on your next comment like this, but as I said, a google search for the quotes either brought nothing, or it brought up obscure sites that weren't being referenced in the comment.

          Once pasted my post loses bold or italics. The formatting tools in TS reply box then allowed on both mobile and desktop versions only single word by word highlight to enable formatting. Hence, the standard, correct quotation marks are there.

          5. I'll check that and talk to Lynn. Using " " is fine, but you *have to make it clearer than you did eg not running one quote into the other. Please only use double quotes for actual quotes/cut and pastes.

          • PaddyOT 33.2.2.1.1
            20 August 2020 at 8:29 pm

            1. Commentator links referred to were a sampling of how information changes on a grapevine and becomes endorsed more widely.

            The persons were not to be singled out that was NOT the purpose of the message needed to be made.

            Points were scrutinised of specific substances posed as combatting Covid19 were named clearly in the now deleted post. A direct analysis of the many specific 'substances' promoted I followed up on to see the validity. This included a namebrand product promotion of one source only of iodine for an audience to buy into. That audience – the public.

            The efficacy of the advice of videos posted, the 'truth' assumed and interpreted when discussed, the lack of scientific context leading to questions of safety and hence harm for the public were correctly under a spotlight of " bogus" misinformation for many, many months now that Health Authorities have been continually working hard at to stop the myths.

            Incognito today rightly identified one source of applying an authorative source to Covid19 myths still circulating widely after months of being debunked.
            Bringing untested promotions of 'medicines' was my investigation.

            I viewed these posted videos, and like you did and posted commendation on I initially thought 'that's good' and where you then posted a caveat on same first video, I started out of curiosity looking at where the source of findings came from. This was also prompted because it was stated, as if a fact, that Maori and Polynesians need to do this. I then posted the link to different ethnic countries studies behind these promotions, result deleted by you.

            I had also read some weeks back of the foolish Japanese Governor falsely promoting one of the same so called false cures and the negative fallout this created. This I posted but now deleted.
            I asked my daughter ( medical field) who pointed to authorative sources and the unfounded claims. How I take seriously Covid19 information, I then researched over hours many works to post those conclusions. They were NOT my findings.

            2. I check my post when composing on whichever platform before pasting into Reply box. eg. Often use samsung note as now.
            Then even before pushing Publish button, as explained, I check format and correct.
            Once clicked to Publish , yes it is 10 minutes, you will see that the majority of my posting are again edited by me once more in that time slot.

            3. I do. (see 2. above).

            4. I have the link to the samples and others but check reason at 1.above.
            The videos still exist despite many notices issued by Health authorities dispelling them. You deleted these for each analysis of all the substances discussed or promoted and so the ' bogus' scientifically unsubstantiated information still stands.

            5. I did "only use double quotes for actual quotes/cut and pastes". You removed them. Even in indented italics all work by other authors should still have commentators using "-" or it is plagiarism was my understanding over years.

  34. greywarshark 34
    20 August 2020 at 2:44 pm

    What about a knighthood for Dr Ashley Bloomfield at the end of this, er sometime? The Man from the Ministry has done good.

    • Just Is 34.1
      20 August 2020 at 5:22 pm

      Sadly Greywarshark, a Knighthood no longer has the same level of respect it once had attached to it.

      Not naming any names or anything.

      NZ should have its own awards system, with real, measurable criteria.

      • woodart 34.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 6:13 pm

        thought we did? order of New Zealand? agree, knighthoods have had there luster well spoiled, soiled,sold?

      • gsays 34.1.2
        20 August 2020 at 6:15 pm

        “NZ should have its own awards system, with real, measurable criteria.”

        Call the highest one The Bloomfield.

    • Stuart Munro 34.2
      20 August 2020 at 8:38 pm

      He should at least get to say to the assembled press vermin:

      "Alright you primitive screwheads, I'm Dr Ash, and this is my Bloomschtick"

  35. Pat 35
    20 August 2020 at 2:49 pm

    "Up until March, the number of people in the country on work visas had been growing steadily and had more than doubled over the last six years, hitting an all time high of 221,166 in March this year.

    But the number of work visa holders in the country has declined in every month since, dropping to 205,416 in July, down by 15,333 (-8.1%) compared to the March peak.

    However that reduction may be nothing more than a normal seasonal fluctuation, rather than anything to do with lockdown restrictions."

    https://www.interest.co.nz/property/106637/covid-19-lockdown-appears-have-had-only-minor-impact-overseas-student-numbers-so-far

    When numbers dont match the narrative

  36. PaddyOT 36
    20 August 2020 at 3:28 pm

    Into the mix of so much information out there I would add some alternative views.

    We did not identify any evidence for the use of zinc as prophylaxis for COVID-19, nor as a standalone treatment. The results of clinical trials including zinc in the intervention regimens should provide definitive evidence of the effectiveness and safety of this treatment in the context of COVID-19.

    https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-188

    The letter states the research did not involve giving ivermectin to people or animals, and that it only stopped replication of SARS-CoV-2 in a petri dish

    In vitro promise leads to clinical failure in the vast majority of cases, and in the volatile environment of the current pandemic, it is critical that we are sensitive to the implications of our communication and apply our resources to compounds most likely to succeed,

    Associate Professor Steven Tong is an infectious diseases clinician at Royal Melbourne Hospital, the principal investigator for the AustralaSian COVID-19 Trial (ASCOT) and a co-lead of clinical research at the Doherty Institute.

    He has not seen any clinical evidence to support Professor Borody’s claims.

    [deleted]

    https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/insufficient-evidence-to-currently-support-ivermec

    https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-is-still-not-a-miracle-cure-for-covid-19-despite-what-you-may-have-read-144569

    [the deleted bit was out of order from your previous quote. I’ve tidied up some of your formatting so it makes sense, but there are limits on my time – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 36.1
      20 August 2020 at 4:34 pm

      mod note for you Paddy.

      In addition to the points I made in OM.

      1. It's convention here to put the supporting link immediately after the quotation

      2. Please put new, separate quotes in a new line separate by a line space.

      3. I strongly suggest you learn how to use the quotation tags, it will make your comments way easier to understand and much less likely to be modded. Let me know if you want me to talk you through that.

    • PaddyOT 36.2
      20 August 2020 at 6:14 pm

      You have taken away the correct use of quotation marks that were put around direct excerpts, the " " marks bind and represent the entire and exact language (either spoken or written) that has come from somebody else.

      Your reformatted post then makes these statements falsely as mine and my understanding is that your taking away of quotation marks is then plagiarism.

      For each direct quote I followed your instructions and put the direct source as you asked next to them.

      You then took those sources away disconnecting them and placed them at the bottom.

      You then selected and deleted direct quotes to make the post fit your picture.

      I resign.

      Make sure weka that you do the same consistently to all post commentators if the intent is other than eliminating true information.

      [as a moderator I have to be able to read comments and make sense of them. When someone writes comments that are hard to read, I usually try and help them sort that out for future comments. I’ve spent a fair amount of time today trying to show you what the problem was and how to change it going forward. As far as I can tell you’re not interested. That’s up to you. But you know where the boundaries are now. – weka]

  37. mpledger 37
    20 August 2020 at 3:49 pm

    I see National want people to have a negative test before boarding a plane.

    I have thought about that but I don't see it as being particularly helpful for a number of reasons –

    a) you have to 100% trust the medical system in the country of origin – that they don't have screw-ups, are using a good testing regime, the results come out on time, the test results are impervious to forgery or tampering.

    b) the riskiest part of coming back to NZ is actually the travelling – getting to the airport, being in the airport, queuing etc – so having a test done at least 3-4 days before doing the travelling isn't that helpful.

    c) the cost of travelling is so expensive ($20k for a family)/travel options are so limited that not being able to get on a flight is really costly (time/money) which will make people try and cheat the system – not do the test and used forged test results.

    d) I don't think NZ has any authority over people in a foreign airport to make them force people off planes (aside from the rules under international negotiated treaties). Counter staff are going to be reluctant to police testing results (look out for forgeries) if it's just going to end up in an angry confrontation between people that just makes boarding planes even more inefficient.

    The practical realities of trying to do a test pre-boarding just seems too problematic … unless they get a quick spit test at the airport … but even that seems time consuming for a plane load of people.

    • observer 37.1
      20 August 2020 at 4:09 pm

      All that really matters is that the clock starts at zero, when they arrive in NZ, and enter isolation.

      Any attempt to reduce that time is a risk that is not worth taking. And if it doesn't reduce that time, if they are all entering isolation for 2 weeks anyway, then it is a whole minefield of trouble – for no gain.

      Example: "Sir, I see your negative test has come from a doctor in India that does not meet our standards. You cannot board."

      Result: diplomatic row. Probable result: NZ accepts tests from Country A (worth X billion in trade) but not from Country B (worth peanuts).

      Of course it's not meant to be implemented, it's just a headline. Like Bridges' bonfire of regulations, and Muller's call for international students, it will be in the shredder by next month.

      • ScottGN 37.1.1
        20 August 2020 at 5:13 pm

        Yes. National are still advocating quarantine for 14 days and tests at day 3 and day 12 and all the other health checks. It’s just a headline grabber to hang the policy on. Ain’t ever going to happen.

    • Gabby 37.2
      20 August 2020 at 4:20 pm

      I wouldn't put it past them to auction the right to issue negative test certificates (comes with free 3 months work visa).

    • ianmac 37.3
      20 August 2020 at 4:55 pm

      Imagine trying to time the test and its answer coinciding with the booked ticket. Delay with answer? Just book again for a new costly ticket. What's a few thousand more and do you mind getting the test done in the timeframe- again? No?

  38. John G 38
    20 August 2020 at 4:02 pm

    I see AB has been nominated for kiwi of the year. Stiff competition, Gower has been nominated as well. I presume he nominated himself. (Gower I mean)

  39. Stuart Munro 39
    20 August 2020 at 5:06 pm

    Vincente Fox – maybe the best counter-Trump commenter of all.

  40. Pat 40
    20 August 2020 at 6:04 pm

    Street and/or suburb lockdowns….WTF?

    Is their understanding of this virus really that flawed?

    Judith Collins , One News 6 pm tonight

  41. CAnker the pig fucker 41
    20 August 2020 at 6:53 pm

    Melbourne did the street/suburb lockdown and look how well that worked out