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Open mike 20/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 20th, 2019 - 187 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

187 comments on “Open mike 20/09/2019 ”

  1. Agora 1

    What will be the main issues during the next election?

    • mac1 1.1

      The local Grey Power has asked for questions to be asked at a meeting for local body candidates.

      The only two topics raised from all the responses are 1. climate change and 2. housing.

      Those seem to be the issues for seniors, at least. Climate change is an interesting one since that change is going to be physically affecting the planet far more when we seniors are dead.

      The other issue for a general election will be timely and responsive health care.

      The issues when we were young were quite different- Apartheid, Vietnam, Nuclear war.

      On reflection not so different as today. Apartheid has become hate speech and racism. Vietnam has become Afghanistan. Nuclear war is on the rise as an issue with attacks on existing treaties but also has its modern equivalent in climate change.

      Good question.

      • Anne 1.1.1

        The issues when we were young were quite different- Apartheid, Vietnam, Nuclear war.

        Oh yes, and it defined who we were and what we became.

        At last 45-50 years later, a new generation of young people are walking in our tracks. It's enough to give us some hope for the future. But first, the world needs to clear away the destruction and debris caused by excessive greed and neo-liberalism.

        • Tiger Mountain

          A lot to reflect on in your short post Anne!

          The current youth led action on Climate Change in particular does also provide a chance for a “clean sheet of paper” approach to neo liberalism. And in fact if the current Govt. is fortunate enough to be re-elected, consigning the structural underpinnings of NZ neo liberalism to history, should the political priority of us all.

          By 2023 other generation’s of voters will be on the verge of outnumbering “boomers” so change will come, and hopefully not too late.

          • mac1

            I'm a boomer. In my first draft of my comment above I toyed with a further paragraph that said something along the lines of "So much for the baby boomer bashers who accuse us of self-centred greed" considering the issues that now most concern seniors.

            Then I asked myself, "Or is it guilt"?

            • OnceWasTim

              I can't wait till we're outnumbered – but of course I'll be dead by then (beforehand) hoping my offspring will float me down the Ganga in a flaming cardboard box, or alternatively – stick me under a tree in the backyard as its fertiliser.

              (More likely though, I might prove to be so toxic, that the Kowhai planted in remembrance of my father would probably end up in my case with purple flowers or a colour as yet unknown.

              What'd be better though would be some bloody virus which, upon touch would end up tainting the mind – killing off the entire religious belief system in neo-liberalism.)

              @Anne sums it up pretty well (above).

          • Pat

            "By 2023 other generation’s of voters will be on the verge of outnumbering “boomers” so change will come, and hopefully not too late."

            Have been outnumbered for quite some time…considerably outnumbered.

            (see chart in attached article)

            "In 2013 boomers made up the largest proportion of the adult population (30.8 per cent). In the four years that have passed since then, millennials have overtaken them.

            If you include all of the 14 to 17-year-old millennials in the 2017 adult population there are now likely over 1 million adult Millennials in New Zealand."


          • weka

            "By 2023 other generation’s of voters will be on the verge of outnumbering “boomers” so change will come, and hopefully not too late."

            Only if they actually vote. And don't, like every other generation before them, become more conservative as they age.

            • Tiger Mountain

              Yes, there are those angles to it, but generation Rent and generation Student Loan have a different take on life from those secure in their own homes on National Super. No prediction that will see the newer voters dive Green/left after being raised in a market economy, saturated with neo liberal individualist psychology.

            • Pat

              Sigh… the wilfully ignorant are a special breed,

              In 2013 the percentage of adults (those eligible to vote, with minimal exceptions) that were 'boomers' was a shade over 30%, leaving an almost 70% of non boomers to comfortably out vote on any issue/platform should they get off their arses and stop looking for scapegoats…and even with the poor turnout they will have had a greater number at the polls.

              The political course taken by NZ lies at the feet of the entire electorate as it they that have consistently provided a majority for the status quo….such is democracy.

              • Sacha

                Ah, you are talking about people eligible to vote, whereas I mean those who actually do.

                • Pat

                  who chooses if you vote?

                  • Sacha

                    There are many reasons why people do not vote. A whole field of research, even.

                    • Pat

                      bully for the research…at the end of the day if you want a say, you vote…dont vote and blame no one except yourself.

                    • Tiger Mountain

                      yep, alienation, transience, isolation, decline of postal communication, underselling of the unpublished roll–a biggie for migrants and women and those in debt–and the list goes on

                    • mac1

                      And that sickening perennial meme propagated by those who don't want the hands of the hoi polloi on the levers of power- "Don't vote. It only encourages them"!

                      Plus gaol prisoners.

                      Plus location of booths.

                      And social encouragement. I'm going to be writing a piece for a Grey Power newsletter encouraging people to vote.- not just members.

                      Will churches, sports groups, residents associations, migrant groups, community associations, service clubs do the same?

                      Who does that for the all the other social groupings?

                      Will some Millennial use the power of social media to do the same?

                      Who asks, "Have you voted yet? Have you looked at the list of candidates? Got your voting forms?" etc

        • phillip ure

          @ anne..

          yes anne – and those in the forefront of those giving you hope are extinction-rebellion..

          are you standing with them – ?

          in word – or in action..?

      • Anne 1.1.2

        …and I've been thinking 😯

        For part of the time at least we had a progressive government walking alongside us and giving us support. I refer to the Kirk-led government in the 1970s. I still mourn the loss of that man. He had his flaws I know, but he was an inspiring and visionary leader. How different things would have been had he lived.

        The new generation have the Ardern-led government and despite misgivings by some people, I believe they will prove to be a progressive government provided we (the voters) give then the time and space to carry it all out.

        PS. I missed your comment TM but I think you might be from an older generation too, so you will know what I’m saying.

        • Tiger Mountain

          Yes, was in Biko squad in ’81 tour, marched for Nuke Free NZ and Homosexual Law Reform etc. I remember the silence across town on the day of Norm Kirk’s funeral, have read Margaret Hayward’s “Diary of the Kirk years”, was proud of Norm beyond the French nuclear test Frigate–so many things were instituted in his brief tenure including Integrated schools…etc. etc.

          Another term or two and this would have been a different country indeed. It is only a partial excuse, but Douglas and co sneaked in their neo lib revolution under cover of Muldoon’s damage really.

          • greywarshark

            Re TM at 10.48. I don't see the young ones showing any more understanding about today's politics than I did last century. It's a different time but the zeitgeist seems to be last century's but diminished, harder, more competitive, and lacking real caring and understanding of those getting ground down who are outside the bounds of the group. The environment is different in type, it is part of their purview and they are understanding the implications of BAU but people have to prove worthy of being considered; there seems a self-hate for humanity that gets projected onto others.

          • Anne

            Was that the squad which assembled in Fowlds Park? I was in that squad – minus helmet and padded jacket so we were placed near the rear out of harm's way. Still saw the violence on both sides though. Protesters being repeatedly batoned simply because they were making a lot of noise. I also saw protesters overturning a car parked on the side of the road which was pure vandalism. They got away with it because the police were too busy hitting noisy protesters into the ground further down the road. Madness.

    • The Chairman 1.2

      What will be the main issues during the next election?

      For Labour (and the Greens by association) voter trust will be a big issue.

      Considering things like growing housing demand, hardship grants and food bank queues have all worsen and not improved. How much will voters trust them to deliver to give them another go?

      • Rapunzel 1.2.1

        Are you kidding? Where did you get the idea that very many people "trust" National and that despite it being suggested otherwise, whether you like it or not, a lot of NZers know that the "growing housing demand, hardship grants and food bank queues" began in the years of their tenure and that the numbers now are the culmination of too rapid immigration and some low grade training outlets.

        • The Chairman

          I didn't say anything about people trusting National.

          Nevertheless, don't forget, even in Helen's time it was all about trust.


          • Rapunzel

            My main point was exactly that that, no, you never mentioned people's trust in National and for some there is none any more.

            • The Chairman

              Yet, they (National) are still polling relatively well.

              Meanwhile, trust in Labour has taken a hammering of late.

              • Rapunzel

                I think you are naive on that, the media have done quite a job on recent events but the fact is outside of a handful of people no one incl Ms Bennett has full or close to full knowledge of the event that "Labour" has had a hammering over. Anyone with life experience knows that a number of facts will add up to the full picture and I dearly hope the QC has all she needs and does a good job of getting the facts and that a just and factual report on that can be given to the public. One thing I am sure of is the Winston Peters had no need to and would have never have commented in the way did with out solid reason that media and Bennett have spoken out without all the relevant facts.

                • The Chairman

                  Word on the street would suggest otherwise. Not one person I've spoken to in the real world believes them. And this feedback is also coming from other lefties.

                  As for Winston, without Labour having a hope in the next election, he loses his ability to play the two (National – Labour) off. So of course he's come to their backing in this regard.

                  Here's something to ponder if you wish. If no complaint was ever laid, why is Jacinda saying there is no excuse for their mishandling of it?

                  • McFlock

                    Not one person I've spoken to in the real world believes them.

                    They were probably just humouring you so that you'd go away and let them deal with the next customer. If they existed at all: I suppose if you spoke to nobody about it, then not one person you spoke to would disagree with you…

                  • Rapunzel

                    The real world? Are you actually going to bore me with that drivel? Obviously you're not quite busy enough and I live in the real world too? It's full of a variety of people some of them wired right, very few wired left and the rest to busy to pay attention to politics on a daily basis yet, maybe more next year. They will have a variety of things to think about and I am pleasantly surprised sitting down to chat that they are certainly not that keen to be "preached" to and even less to be misled – you might be surprised where they see that approach coming from. Let's such say that the salesman National once has is streets ahead of what you have now, it's viewed as useless.

                    Based on that the rest of your blurb is pointless and yet to reach it conclusion.

                  • Incognito

                    Here's something to ponder if you wish. The Rt Hon Winston Peters cannot stand liars and BS. If no one had lied, why is the Rt Hon Winston Peters commenting on it?

                    • Rapunzel

                      If I was even the slightest doubtful about the whole thing once Winston Peters got back, clearly checked out or even demanded details, as he would, and then said what he was said that allayed my possible doubts. The doubts probably came due to the media insinuations now I just hope the whole story can be told as fully as possible.

                    • The Chairman

                      Winston requires both National and Labour to do well (but not too well) so as they will both require him, thus making him king maker allowing him to play them off against each other to secure a better deal for NZF.

                      If voters have no trust in Jacinda, Labour are unlikely to do well in the next election.

                    • Incognito []

                      I think you should write opinion pieces for the media. You seem to repeat your own lines like you believe them. That’s good, passion and unwavering conviction, no matter what.

                      Above all, keep it simple, e.g. offer only binary opinions and binary choices, and under no circumstances try to be nuanced. Voters seem to appreciate that because it makes their task so much easier for them.

                    • The Chairman


              • Incognito

                Meanwhile, trust in the media has taken a hammering of late.

                Yet, they (the media) are still selling relatively well.

                Another PoV, for balance …

      • David Mac 1.2.2

        You come running down the mountain every morning yelling 'Wolf'. I used to entertain your concerns but I can't feed any more of these cute little dogs you keep leading home.

  2. Treetop 2

    Operation Burnham has got my attention.

    This inquiry shows that once a document is presented how a previous witness statement can be found to be misleading.

    The problem with misleading is that it has an impact on the character of the person making an allegation of the truth being hidden or alternative facts being dismissed when they should not be.

  3. mauī 3

    A bold move from our vegan friends… good on them for standing up for our sentient beings in the supermarket. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12268832

    "We wanted to go in and pay our respects to the victims in the chiller, while at the same time raising awareness to the general public – because in this day and age there is no reason to exploit animals for food,"

    • They certainly raised awareness in the general public of what sanctimonious fuckwits vegans can be, I'll give them that.

      • mauī 3.1.1

        That's the kind of reaction they got from aggravated shoppers who were denied access to their meat on sunday…

        • Dukeofurl

          3/4 of those in US who 'try vegetarianism or veganism' return to eating meat.

          • marty mars

            That stat is a bit suspect mate.

            This is a good read

            I think what I find annoying, deep down – and, again, some meat-eaters, you don’t have to own up to this, but it might interest you to discover whether you feel it – is the very fact that I can’t discount vegans any more. The thing that’s annoying about there suddenly being lots of them is the nagging suspicion that they might be right. When there were hardly any vegans, I hardly ever had to think about that.


            • phillip ure

              heh..!..yep..!..that nails it..

              that and guilt – both conscious and subconscious..

              (there is a recognised childhood trauma where/when children realise that 'meat' is those cute animals they love..they then get conditioned by family/environment – so it becomes normalised..)

              and their dietary normalcy/given is being challenged..

              these are what most have yet to process..

              ..and this is just the beginning..the earliest stirrings..

              and really – those like p.m. doing an 'impersonation of a boomer whose discount-coupon has expired'..had better learn how to suck it up..

              the future is nearly here…

              and really – it was hardly yellow-jacket/hong kong street anarchy – was it..?

              it was a very kiwi demonstration – quite polite..really..

          • Anne


            I went through a non meat eating phase and ended up with a bad case of anaemia. It's all about moderation. Fresh red meat once a week is all that is needed to maintain a healthy blood count for most people.

            If they can produce "non meat" meat (as TM puts it @ 3.1.2) which is both tasty and has the required protein levels of real meat, then all the better for everyone including the animals.

            That is where these obsessive vegans should be concentrating… not interfering with shoppers going about their business in a supermarket.

            • phillip ure

              @ anne..

              i agree with yr comment on focussing on plant-food substitution..(sort of..)

              but consciousness-raising as to the realities of the flesh being purchased is also a valid exercise..(if slaughterhouses had glass-walls etc etc..')

              and stopping eating flesh gives you anaemia..eh..?

              i'm calling complete and utter b.s. on that one…(got any evidence..?..)

              and why must you call vegans 'obsessive'..?..why the ad-hom..?

              and you mean 'obsessive' like you used to be about stopping the vietnam war..?


          • weka

            I'm guessing that many of the new, CC vegans aren't actually vegan and still eat small amounts of meat and dairy.

            • JohnP

              Veggie/vegan here, Weka is accurate there. We need to have milk in for our little one, who needs the calcium etc. But it's been pretty easy to cut out dairy and meat, far easier than maybe a decade ago, in part due to the expanding range of dairy-free and meat free products.

              The holy grail is finding a dairy-free cheese that melts right and tastes right, it seems right now that you can pick one of these features – but not both.

            • phillip ure

              @ weka..

              um..!..vegan is kind of an absolute thing..

              something that people either do – or don't..

              i've never met a part-time vegan – 'cos if they are still eating flesh/dairy then they are either still carnivores – or vegetatrans – or flexi-terians..

              vegans they ain't..

              so your 'guess' is somewhat oxymoronic..by linguistic definition..eh..?

              and can i just say – 'you ain't seen nuthin' yet..!'

        • Sacha

          That’s the kind of reaction they got from aggravated shoppers who were denied access to their meat on sunday…


          Apart from a few people who got aggressive, Stock said most shoppers were respectful. "Most people walked past, looked, took a flyer or walked passed respectfully," he said.

      • Tiger Mountain 3.1.2

        Nothing more outraged than a thwarted shopper! Gimme mah meat man!

        Vegans are the future like it or not. Personally I am looking forward to “non meat” meat, I like a good burger, and “non dairy” dairy. More efficient land use and animal exploitation and cruelty diminished.

        • Dukeofurl

          But vegans need 20% more protein, isnt that going to change the land use equation…or will it be farmed insects?

          • Cricklewood

            Certainly almonds are umm not so enviromentally friendly….

            15 Gallons of water to produce 16 Almonds…

            thousands of acres of wetland converted…


          • Stuart Munro.

            To date insect farming is a nonsense. Protein via legumes works well for vegetarians, as it did for the poor in many countries historically:

            "Pease pudding hot!
            Pease pudding cold!
            Pease pudding in the pot
            Nine days old."

            There is also the celtic bean: Archaeobotanical research on prehistoric crops in Britain has primarily focussed on cereals and the potential importance of alternative crops, such as pulses, has often been overlooked. This paper reviews evidence for Celtic bean (Vicia faba L.) in British prehistory, using a database of archaeobotanical assemblages from 75 sites. Celtic bean is rare in the Neolithic – Early Bronze Age and it only becomes frequent from the Middle Bronze Age (ca. 1500 cal BC) onwards, particularly in southern England. Though there is a paucity of evidence at many sites, it is suggested that this reflects a preservation bias and in some areas at least, Celtic bean formed an important element of past agricultural systems.

            It's more iron and calcium that require effort to get into a vegetarian diet, especially since the Popeye myth about spinach was, sadly, a misplaced decimal point.

        • greywarshark

          Lab grown food for lab grown hugh-mans.

      • The Al1en 3.1.3

        I just hope it's on video when a punter chases them down the meat aisle with a manky sausage or slab of liver in each hand.

        • Cricklewood

          I'd be well tempted… I'm not a fan of the evangelical Christians that knock on the door etc but jeez rather them than a mildly crazed vegan… #plants have feeling to

          • McFlock

            Well, at least these ones had taped their mouths shut and had their hands full with signs. Easy enough to move around.

            Unless they had some annoying jerks to nag you if you moved past the blockade, of course.

          • The Al1en

            Well I wouldn't want to impede their right to peaceful protest, and certainly wouldn't condone violence upon them to counteract their aggressive posturing, but having a rump steak waved in their mushes would raise a chuckle.

    • Jimmy 3.2

      I have no problem with people being vegan but that stunt will simply turn people against them. Those were just a bunch of dickheads as my vegetarian partner said.

      • phillip ure 3.2.1

        @ jimmy..

        funny story about vegetarians: many of them dislike vegans more than flesh-eaters do..

        that's 'cos vegetarians tend to think of themselves as 'the good guys' in this food-schema..

        and don't take kindly to having it pointed out to them – that they ain't…

        • David Mac

          You're a diet saint phil.

          Now get a haircut and a job.

          Sorry, I'm having a lend, as you were.

  4. Agora 4

    As someone who travelled through Afghanistan in '74, was told to get out of Kabul because something 'bad' was happening, saw chaos, confusion, and fear on people's faces, and was diverted to Mazar-i-Sharif in the north to see the Buzkashi – a bit like rugby on horseback – I have fond memories of Afghanistan and could not help comparing it in some ways with Aotearoa / New Zealand.

  5. mosa 5

    " Social Credit is taking a stand on the continuing avalanche of New Zealand assets and land being bought up overseas entities and further actions are being contemplated "


  6. Ad 6

    Shoutout to Patrick Reynolds for getting on the NZTA Board.

  7. JohnP 7

    To be found to have worn blackface once may be regarded as misfortune, twice looks like carelessness, three times looks like you're racist.

    Trudeau can't say how many times he wore blackface.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1

      Vaguely recall watching the Black and White Minstrel Show as a youngster (~6 year-old?) – don't believe it engendered any conscious racism, but how to be sure?

      "This racial controversy led to the programme's eventual cancellation from television in 1978, although a stage version ran for ten years after the show's cancellation at Victoria Palace Theatre, London. This was followed by tours of Australia and New Zealand."

      "Since its cancellation in 1978, The Black and White Minstrel Show has come to be seen widely as an embarrassment, despite its huge popularity at the time."


      Many would have done stuff in their younger days that might give cause for embarrassment now, and these activities are becoming more difficult to hide – a sign of the times.

      • McFlock 7.1.1

        By the 1990s, people should have figured out blackface was wrong.

        That having been said, at least he's owning it and not doing an "apology if you were offended" spiel.

    • Tiger Mountain 7.2

      A textbook political hit job, including the drip feed and subsequent furnishing of further examples. An attack only possible of course because Justin was such a dickhead when younger. And still likes dress ups it seems. It will be a high price to pay for many Canadians, including migrants, if a more right wing Government results.

      Flawed people are often capable of positive things, but really, what is it about “blackface” that appeals to some white men? Or, in the case of other leaders placing their penises in pigs heads? or “grabbing ’em by the pussy”? or pulling on subordinates pony tails? Wealthy and systemic male privilege and arrogance, plus various parts racism and misogyny no doubt.

      Will Trudeau survive this one? Hard to tell, he should retire in shame, but to what extent should people that admit wrong doing be allowed a second chance? The Canadian voters will answer that.

    • mac1 7.3


      This article looks at black-face within cultural tradition and its relevance or propriety in modern society raised by media attention to an English politician's photo at a local folk festival.

      A difference though between Morris dancing tradition and the late and unlamented haka parties of my University youth in Christchurch?

      • ianmac 7.3.1

        Recently my wife gave me a golliwog made in Picton for tourists. I thought how cute as more than 70 years ago my Mum had made me a golliwog based on a black woollen stocking. A neat toy for a little boy.

        But when my son saw my wife's gift he was adamant that it was a serious racist symbol and should be destroyed. I saw it as a friendly cuddly toy. Funny how contemporary attitudes are so different. Poor old Little Black Sambo.

        • mac1

          Yes, I had a golliwog too, and at the age of about ten gave away to a younger couain.

          At primary school. we had a black-faced well dressed coin box that had a hand that accepted a coin and a lever then tilted the coin into the mouth of the black face and into its innards.

          The money, a penny at a time, went to the African missions.

          Now, the coin has flipped and African and Asian clergy are now missionising New Zealand, as the new Nelson Anglican Bishop exemplifies.

          It connects to what President Macron spoke of with the decline of Western hegemony. And probably explains a lot of Western fear behaviour based on old attitudes and power structures.(And I just wanted to reminisce about my golly!)

    • marty mars 7.4

      yep nice guys can be racist.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.4.1

        Blackface or brownface, is it possible for a young racist to become (over the course of 20 years give or take) less racist ('not racist' even), and so become a nicer guy?

        Were Trudeau's late teenage attitudes/values on matters of race set in stone, or might he have been capable of change?

        No need to consider, let alone attempt to answer – these questions, and particularly any answers, are unimportant. The sooner that racist Trudeau is out of office the better.

        Many voters may conclude that Mr. Trudeau’s record of championing ethnic diversity and immigration, he said, offsets the offensive acts he did years before entering politics. As prime minister, Mr. Trudeau has welcomed thousands of refugees, promised to improve the lives of Indigenous people and apologized for historical abuses.

        Suraj Shing, 35, an Uber driver from India, said he wasn’t voting for Mr. Trudeau because he was annoyed about his rising rent. But the photographs didn’t bother him. “Maybe somebody thinks it’s racist,” he said. “I don’t think so because he’s a very nice guy, he goes to mosques, he’s a very multicultural guy.”


        • marty mars

          if you don't want to be a racist then don't be a racist – pretty basic stuff and good advice for trudeau too

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Thanks Marty, just relieved I’ve never done anything racist (apart from watching the B&W Minstrel Show when I was ~6), because that taint doesn’t go away – not in a million years. Nor should it.

            Pity Trudeau didn’t seek/get good advice at the time, but it’s too late now.

            • marty mars


              • Drowsy M. Kram


                • marty mars

                  make fun as much as you like – it shows your privilege and lack of empathy and stupidity as well

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    My "making fun" reply to the comment "idiot" shows: (i) My "privilege", (ii) My "lack of empathy", and (iii) My "stupidity".

                    Guilty as charged – Trudeau’s racist behaviour is a “black or white” matter.

                    • marty mars

                      wow I thought you thought a bit more than that – seems I gave you too much credit

                      [This thread is about Trudeau and not about another commenter – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 6.55 PM.

                    • marty mars

                      Sure I abide by moderation. I did not find that this commenter was sincere. Seemed to me they were s%@&ring the whole way through. That is just by way of explanation so my motives aren't misinterpreted.

                    • Incognito []

                      Noted and appreciated. IMO, you missed the sarc tag. That particular commenter is well known for taking on The Chairman using a similar style. It may not always be effective, it may not always be liked (by the recipient), but it is not just shitstirring. In any case, one can make a point without getting up close and personal and the moderation note was to avoid further escalation that would have had more dire consequences.

                    • marty mars

                      thanks incognito – I got the sarcasm – I just thought it was a smokescreen for the actual points they really wanted to make but didn't want to say.

                      I'll try to be less reactive.

                    • Incognito []

                      Quite possibly, they were trying to make multiple points but you homed in on just one. FWIW, I don’t like it when the outcome is fairly predictable; they could have elaborated and tweaked their comment(s). But they didn’t, unfortunately, and instead gave you almost enough rope …

            • greywarshark

              Has Trudeau apologised for his insensitivity and wrongheadedness? It would help if he realises what a fuckwit he has been and says so.

              Note 7 6 1 marty mars where he is at the West Point Grey
              Academy – presumably visiting as 29 is old to be studying. But recently there has been comment on the educational places these leaders get dragged up in and their inhuman and antisocial practices.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Like Corbyn and UK Labour party antisemitism, or Ardern and NZ Labour party rape culture, Trudeau's public apologies, sincere or not, are immaterial. Gotcha!

                "It's very unusual for an event like this to come into a campaign and completely disrupt the major brand of a political leader."

                • greywarshark

                  This is just a media beat-up and we should think twice before reacting to stories like this. lt's interesting that we hear from Trudeau in that video that he was dressing up as Aladdin, a well-known children's story hero who is an Arab I think. It wasn't blackface, black and white minstrel style, which echoed and parodied the performances of poor black entertainers and mimicked their personas in a Jim Crow* way.

                  Personally I find it mocking and insulting that some jeans brands have brought out expensive jeans that are slashed across the knees. Just my sensitivity, but it's like saying to the poor that 'we can dress like you if we want and still belong in our class, but whatever you wear you will wake up poor and an outsider tomorrow.' People can insult others without a word in more subtle ways than putting brown on the face.

                  If being ready to take everything as an insult, it is hard to communicate at all. Personally I do not like people who are very practised in saying the right thing, so as to gain advantage, acceptance and trust. They seem genuine but it is likely to be for show. Thin-skinned people are hard to talk to, as they have more than one private agendas, and people who take on causes or are very rigid about their beliefs make conversation a minefield.

                  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_(character)

    • McFlock 7.5

      pretty much.

    • Gabby 7.6

      Wouldn't be the first idiot kid to do something stoopid thinking it was cool.

  8. Treetop 8

    Britain has submitted papers to the EU in Brussels in regard to Brexit and the EU have given Johnson the snub.

    Source Reuters.

  9. The Chairman 10

    Wasn't the recent 2 part Patrick Gower documentary interesting?

    • Brigid 10.1

      Yes but one should read Russell Brown's piece on it. I fear Patrick Gower missed a great opportunity to inform people and choose to pad the documentary with fluff instead.


      • The Chairman 10.1.1

        Thanks for the link, Brigid.

      • Dukeofurl 10.1.2

        Brown does good journalism, but his concern is always one sided when it comes to drug reform laws.

        as with any sort of 'drug' ( includes alcohol, pharmaceuticals, and cannabis) its the harm caused by and to the high user group that is the only part we spend all the time and effort into regulating.

        Bland comments like 'use amoung young people is declining' are often demographic changes , especially from migration, and arent related to the harm amoung the high user group – which could be increasing.

        Alcohol usage shows more young people are in the dont drink/hardly ever group . This mostly is from migration where asian women especially dont find it culturally acceptable to drink moderately or higher.

        meanwhile, the binge drinking from both those late teens early 20s and the older 40-65 yr group isnt decreasing. Some say those two demographics are 80% of the volume of alcohol consumer.

        Much the same outcomes for cannabis reform, among some demographics heavy cannabis use is routine and commonplace.

        This is the problem area, the rest is fluff as if we dont address the problem smokers/high quantity users and instead spend time like Gower did on the low user and irrelevant commercial aspects , we will have a huge problem.

    • i watched the first one – and lost interest 'cos it was so much 'all about patrick'..

      (what also so annoyed about his political reporting..)

      'cos i am sure that i – and most other nz'ers – couldn't really give a fuck if gower smoked (or not) a joint..

      it was a wasted/pissed away opportunity..

      it could have been so so much better..

    • Treetop 10.3

      The one thing that concerns me with alcohol, cigarettes, vaping, weed, synthetics, is when in the hands of minors or even young adults up to age 25 there can be addiction from substances and an unintended effect on the brain (psychosis, depression, anxiety, disinterest in education).

      • The Al1en 10.3.1

        If the Gower docco showed anything it's that the Colorado model shouldn't be the one we adopt here. Big weed will push all sorts of sh1t upon the market, especially those ultra strong thc oils, and where there's big money the susceptible young will be at great risk.

        As one interviewee said 'they weren't prepared and never expected what happened', and there are other ways to decriminalise cannabis without going crazy capitalist.

        It could all be moot anyway as the polling for med weed is strong but for recreational, the numbers have plummeted.

        • phillip ure

          there is a certain lack of logic in having a person in one room legally consuming their med-pot..

          and someone in the next room – smoking a joint – liable to be busted..

          that way – crazy…

          so med-pot people sharing with someone else will be busted for supply…?

          how will we know..?..med-pot i/d cards..?

          leading to a blackmarket in fake med-pot cards..?


        • Treetop

          I only saw part two.

          The strength of weed has come a long way since the 1960s.

          Probably the only way I would tick for recreational would be a weed cafe like a coffee cafe and open 24 hours a day.

          When it comes to medicinal I would use weed as a first option once panadol and the odd panadine no longer controlled chronic pain.

          When something is normalised it needs to be for the right reasons.

          • The Al1en

            The worst example was the dabbing stuff – One hit as strong as ten joints. That kids were known to dissolve the in a bottle of water to drink at school is something we definitely need to regulate against.

            • phillip ure

              i think it calls for random water-bottle testings at schools..

              it’s the least we can do..

              should we extend it down to primary schools..?

              can't be too sure – eh..?

              (do you people ever listen to yrslves..?)


              • The Al1en

                It's a failing of the Colorado model which directly impacts on children through mass commercialisation bought on by big weed.

                A bit like your fail in attempting a glib response to a serious issue we don't need in NZ, just not as easy to dismiss.

          • phillip ure

            @ treetop..

            'The strength of weed has come a long way since the 1960s.'

            cd we plse lay that myth to rest..?

            it is a prohibitionist scare-tactic aimed at boomers who smoked then – but now don't..

            (the sixties were late arriving here..more like the seventies..)

            and my anecdotal evidence is that durban poison/indonesian weed/thai-grass/hashish..

            was all phenomenally good..

            and our first domestic crops came from those sources..

            and yes..strong weed is strong weed..(and in my experience you just smoke less)

            and in the main there has always been strong weed..

            and it is not appreciably stronger than that of yesteryear..

            that is my anecdotal-evidence..

            fact/court-based evidence also acks this..

            in that in any drug bust the drug is analysed for thc content..

            and american court records from then to now show fuck all change in thc-content from them 'till now..

            not to mention it is outright fucken cultural-imperialism/arrogance to contend that only recently (white) people discovered how to grow good weed..(!)

            f.f.s..!..multiple cultures have been growing stonking weed for thousands of yrs….

            the alcohol-sodden celtic lot are just late to the party – (probably too drunk to notice..)

            as i said – it is prohibitionist-bullshit..

            • The Al1en

              you didn't watch the program. Come back when you're better informed.

              • i am allergic to the self-centred histrionics of the gower..

                i come out in a rash..

                • The Al1en

                  Then you don't have a part to play in a discussion about the show.

                  • but i most certainly have a say in the prohibition of cannabis..

                    gowers' puff-piece is irrelevant – esp if it pushes the alarmist-b.s. you seem to be supporting..

                    • The Al1en

                      As is apparent, you haven't got a clue what I'm on about, and ffs, quit the only smoker in the village routine. We get it Daffyd. 🙄

                    • David Mac

                      Shortcomings aside I think Gowers piece is relevant.

                      As will all pieces delivered by talking heads that have over 100,000 viewers leading up to the referendum.

                      I've only caught the first episode and yes, Patrick's Patrick focus aside, I think he approached the subject with an open mind, keen to share the views of many.

                      For an intro into the referendum, episode 1, I thought Gower made a good hash of it.

            • Treetop

              Who am I to say you don't know your weed.

              I heard it from a person who smoked the cost of a house in weed for 25 years.

              I have also heard that weed can be sprayed with meth.

              At least if a person had a joint in a cafe they would know what they are getting.

              Not sure how legislation would work as a person cannot smoke in a cafe.

        • weka

          how about this then?

          – decriminalise growing and possession for personal and limited shared use

          – prohibit the selling of products

          • The Al1en

            Can't see much wrong with that, and would be in line with home brewing, but then one of the main points put forward by Chloe is a standardised end product. Gower seemed to think the big weed scenario would be unstoppable, especially with the money at stake, so while one may be open to decrimming there are good arguments against too if that free market is to come here.

            • weka

              Standardised products coulc be reserved for medical use and licenced to pharmaceutical companies. Probably needs tight and intelligent regs there, but I'm guessing at the level of disprin rather than opiates. Maybe pharmacy only rather than buying at the supermarket.

              There's a whole thing there about the people that are down on smoking. I think smoking is probably better recreationally than mass commercial edibles, because of dose control.

              Not ideal, but I think decriminalising takes the crime element out of current usage and allows society time to get to grips with how that plays out in NZ specifically (rather then the US or Europe) and what to do next.

              • The Al1en

                As medicine, absolutely it would be strictly policed as to what's in it, as meds are, so no issue there. Of course without big investments, current green fairies would probably fall away if they can't certify, so that could be a draw back for some in the debate.

                With the crime/gang thing, an advantage of the commercial side is the drop in prices. On the show it had an ounce here at $400, and in Colorado $60, so that would slash the criminal element in one go, but the down side is all the other stuff, the gummies, the teas, the super strength dabs etc… Not to mention no tax or gst take for the govt.

                Whatever happens, the argument for is going to have to be well put and argued.

              • The Al1en

                As for smoking, I agree with those down on it, I wouldn't smoke ever again as it's just too unhealthy.

                I would vape liquid, not dried, but then that's easy to make with a jam jar, veg glycerine, buds and 3 months patience.

          • phillip ure

            @ weka..

            and how do you regulate/police this…?

            • weka

              If someone manufactures a cannabis product and tries to sell it at the local dairy then I guess it's the same as trying to sell any other prohibited product?

              • so the blackmarket barely misses a beat..?

                what makes you think you can do that in a vacuum..?

                • weka

                  If cannabis is legal to grow and possess and limited share, I think the black market will alter significantly.

                  What vacuum?

                  • yes..it wd change the market a bit..but not by much..

                    the vacuum as everyone waits for their legal weed to grow..

                    plus people like variety of weeds/ease of purchase..

                    which all means the blackmarket will still largely rule..

                    and i thought that was one of the points of the whole exercise..?

                    and regulating access by the young..?

                    having safe/tested/regulated weed..

                    (in colorado they can trace a bag of weed back to its' parent-plant(s)

                    so we cd also do that..

                    myself – i prefer the urguay-model..

                    where the state controls the markets – and licenses growers/wholesalers/retailers..

                    and in a brilliant move – that closed down the blackmarket – the retail price was dictated to be $6 a gram..

                    blackmarket snuffed out..

                    market able to be controlled at will..

                    all profits returning to the people..

                    what the fuck is not to love about all that..?

        • The Chairman

          @ The Al1en

          I thought there has only been two polls on it (recreational use) to date with both results largely being the opposite of each other.

            • The Chairman

              This (link below) was the one in support that I was referring too.


              52 per cent would vote in favour of legalising cannabis, with 37 per cent against and 11 per cent with no opinion.

              Which is largely opposite the 1 News Colmar Brunton poll result that two of your links were referring too.

              It will be a shame if it’s not supported in the referendum. The black market will soldier on

              • The Al1en

                Did you read the articles I linked to? The three links feature separate polls from three different pollsters, and though two mention the 1 news result, they are in fact 'single serve'.

                If you read the links you'd have noticed in the Helius poll how it references the previous two polls they'd done, which show support plunges from 60% in November last year, to the 52% you've used to justify a position, down to the current 39%.

                Support in the survey – which featured 1003 respondents – is down from 52 per cent in April, and 60 per cent in November last year.

                As trends go that's pretty simple to follow.

                So I reject your original post where "there has only been two polls on it (recreational use) to date with both results largely being the opposite of each other.", as I do your summary in the follow up, after posting three different examples, including the one which highlights your selective link fail.

      • The Chairman 10.3.2

        @ Treetop from post made at 1:07 pm

        Are you suggesting 25 should be the age limit set for the use of these substances (alcohol, cigarettes, vaping, weed etc)?

        • Treetop

          No. Age 18 seems to be the bench mark for most things. Another 7 years maturity and different decision making is likey.

          What is the reason to take a substance?

          Pissed off with the world, wanting to escape. It works for a while and then the substance is required just to get through the day.

          • The Chairman

            What is the reason to take a substance?

            There are numerous reasons. It's not only about escapism.

            Moreover, when it comes to escapism, if the world was a far better place for the majority, less would require to escape from it.

  10. greywarshark 11

    A man rents his home out to AirBnB while he is holidaying in Asia. It gets turned into a brothel going all night with women from Queenstown serving. They resulted in large electricity and cleaning bills which AirBnB are talking about reimbursing.

    But you have to wonder about the owner's own attitudes. He starts talking about emotional trauma and brings in his dead mother's feelings as an example of why he should get it!

    The owner said he wanted Airbnb to consider payment for "emotional trauma".

    His mother, who once owned the house, would be "spinning in her grave", he said."It's been the family home for 55 years. I just have that feeling of being violated."


    • The Chairman 11.1

      Meanwhile (in Queenstown) the poor are being evicted to make way for the more affluent.


      • Graeme 11.1.1

        It's more that affordable housing in Queenstown is the unhealthy old crap that's been scheduled for redevelopment for the past 20 years.

        I'm surprised the owner, QLDC, hasn't been taken to task about the poor condition of some of the old cribs. Although Council did get rid of the worst of them when they took over / didn't renew the old leases.

        Lots of good things happening here though, housing trusts in both Queenstown and Central Otago with a co-ownership model, and several high density KiwiBuild projects that hopefully are still happening

        • The Chairman

          Lots of good things happening here though, housing trusts in both Queenstown and Central Otago with a co-ownership model, and several high density KiwiBuild projects that hopefully are still happening

          No help to the guy in the article now planning to live in his car.

          While they may not been the best of homes, they where cheap and the people staying there where happy to continue staying there.

          Scheduled for redevelopment for the past 20 years. Yet it seems nobody thought of the outcome for the poor staying there given they had 20 years to come up with an affordable alternative.

          • Graeme

            They are all volunteers, no one made them come and live in Queenstown, and very unlikely any of them were born in the town. Everyone who's currently living at Lakeview (that name should give a clue about how good the site is) went there knowing it was a short term tenure in the best site in town, and on bloody good terms, so it shouldn't be news to them.

            People come to Queenstown thinking the streets are paved with gold, have done since 1863, reality is that it's their gold that the streets are paved with. That reality hits hard, and in proportion to the net worth at time of arrival.

            • The Chairman

              To tired to comment at the moment but I'll leave you with a little something to read. PS take note of the comments below the article.


              • David Mac

                Great news Chairman, I know you have a spare room, Rudolph that used to live in cabin number 19 will be at your place tomorrow at 9am. I wouldn't extend an invite to just anyone on your behalf but I know how much you care. Rudie has a medium sized dog….he says that on tenancy applications, it's a woolly mammoth.

              • Graeme

                None of what's mentioned in those comments is new, it's been the case since 1860's. People want to be here because it's a very vibrant place and will do whatever it takes to stay here. That includes working 5 jobs and living 10 or 20 to a house. Until they can't make it work any more, then they bitch and moan and expect their lifestyle to be subsidised. These people push down / underbid wages and push up / over bid accomodation.

                The other side of the coin is the children of long term, multigenerational locals who can't put it together in the town, along with people working in essential services. We have the housing trust that is doing great work at this end but to an extent they are creating demand for themselves. A lot of employers are doing the deed as well with workers accomodation provided.

                A past deputy mayor here, Margaret McHugh (of naked strawberry fame) said that we turned over half our population every two years. That was late 80's or early 90's and I don't think much has changed apart from this current cycle has gone 10 years so far, when past cycles have been around 7 years bust to bust.

                Once the inevitable bust arrives the blowin lifestylers will depart, and the long term, serious residents will have opportunities to get established in town. But short of putting up border posts and restricting entry, or paving over the whole place with 20 story highrises, I don't think there is a solution. The other option is to restrict development and let prices go really stratospheric and price most of the current demand out of the place, but that's Aspen and the town decided in 90's that they didn't want to go there.

                • The Chairman

                  These people push down / underbid wages and push up / over bid accomodation.

                  In what way do you believe this happens?

                  Are you suggesting people ask for lower wages and while on lower incomes offer to pay higher rents while seeking to live in overcrowded houses? All for the sake of living in this so-called vibrant place?

                  Do you believe people really desire and are happy to live this way. If so, then there wouldn't be a problem, would there? There wouldn’t be (as you put it) bitching and moaning.

                  Clearly employers that do offer accommodation aren't doing it for love.

                  Moreover, if the housing trust was doing such great work demand for affordable housing would be met and housing cost wouldn't be soaring.

                  If a downturn eventuates, employment opportunities will diminish, thus falling housing cost will have little impact if people don't have a job.

                  This may have been going on for years but clearly things need to change. Otherwise it will merely be the usual suspects that will continue to prosper and prevail as the lower classes continue to struggle.

                  Wages need to increase and more accommodation (whether upwards, outwards or both) needs to be created.

                  • Graeme

                    "Are you suggesting people ask for lower wages and while on lower incomes offer to pay higher rents while seeking to live in overcrowded houses? All for the sake of living in this so-called vibrant place? "

                    Not suggesting, know it goes on. We get a lot of people who are very motivated to be here and compete for jobs and accomodation.

                    "Do you believe people really desire and are happy to live this way. If so, then there wouldn't be a problem, would there? There wouldn’t be (as you put it) bitching and moaning."

                    Those that doing the aggressive bidding are pretty happy if they get the job or flat, up to the point they can't pay their bills, then it all goes southward. Employers and landlords are pretty happy too. Those that get outbid, not so much. And this is at all levels, not just low income as minimum wage has an effect, but get up the chain and it's all on. The bitching and moaning comes from those that can't get lifestyle expectations to match income, not just a Queenstown problem but very common here.

                    Adding supply, whether by the trust or open market developers creates opportunities and stimulates demand, so it's self perpetuating and there's really no economy to prop it all up. Building houses to house people to build more houses. Until the ponzi / pyramid scheme goes tits up.

                    The previous government poured petrol on the fire with the SHAs, which sent an economy already going at 100% off into the stratosphere and did nothing for affordability, which in a Queenstown context becomes a buzzword for increasing supply and stimulating further demand.

                    It may be smarter in situations like Queenstown that don't actually have a productive economy to restrict supply, allow prices to rise and moderate demand.

                    • The Chairman

                      It's largely common practice now days for people to have to compete for jobs and accommodation (and that's largely nationwide and in a number of sectors). However, while those on WFF tend to be happy with a lower wage as it doesn't impact upon their benefits, thus income and while those that are desperate for work may also accept a job at a lower rate of pay (not to say they are happy about it) there's not many that are happy about it. Hence, there is a lot of discontent/moaning.

                      As for competing for accommodation, the feedback also suggests many aren't happy about it. Therefore, I disagree with your conclusions in these two matters.

                      If it weren't for large and growing numbers of tourist (especially in Queenstown) helping to maintain consumer spending, a number of businesses wouldn't be happy either. High accommodation costs rob consumers of disposable income, thus businesses of their returns.

                      I agree adding to the housing supply stimulates the economy and in turn can increase local demand somewhat, however, this can be curbed to some extent by manufacturing the new homes out of town and trucking them down.

    • Sacha 11.2

      I just have that feeling

      Get some counselling, man.

      • weka 11.2.1

        I don't know, reading the article it sounds like they were pretty disrespectful. I'd not be ok having my family home used in that way.

    • Pat 11.3

      Ah, the gig economy…aint it grand

  11. Bruce 13


    Another solution, but we have to consider the kids, better to have the planet burn than for polys to admit to being sucked in by fake news.
    “So there you have it. If we already knew that there is no need to use the fossil fuels that are destroying the planet’s climate, because hemp biofuel provides a better alternative, we now know that there is no need to destroy the environment by mining for lithium and the materials that are used in batteries. We can literally grow technology. Hemp can save and power the world.”

  12. joe90 14

    The rush to blame Iran did seem rather Wag the Doggish…

    “We are not aware of any information that points to Iran,” said Japanese defense minister Taro Kono.

    Japanese Defense Minister Taro Kono told reporters Wednesday that he has not seen any intelligence indicating Iran was behind the attacks on Saudi Arabian oil facilities over the weekend, contradicting Saudi and Trump administration claims about the incident.


  13. adam 15

    This perpetual war that the USA has dragged us into, is making our military as nasty and self absorbed as the USA military. And whilst there probably was no conspiracy – the culture of NZ military made it simpler to lie and cover up things NZ citizens would not have tolerated.


  14. greywarshark 17

    Maire Leadbetter knows about Indonesia and how it operates. Her concerns for West Papua should be echoed by all thinking NZs. It is hard to keep up with clowns to the left and right for the people stuck in the middle with constant violence.


    ...And of course to take a stand on behalf of Veronica Koman and all of those in jail for taking part in demonstrations, raising the banned Morning Star flag and daring to express their hopes for freedom. The perfect opportunity comes up when Ms Ardern attends the UN General Assembly next week.

    About Veronica Koman:.

    Veronica Koman is an Indonesian human rights lawyer with exceptional courage.  She has long been subject to threats on account of her work defending West Papuan clients and for her advocacy for West Papuan rights.  During this current crisis she shared videos on her Twitter account documenting the unrest. For this she now faces charges of ‘incitement’ and ‘spreading fake news’. She is currently in Australia and Jakarta has asked her to turn herself in.  If she does not an Interpol ‘red’ notice will be issued. Australia is refusing to say how it will respond, but won’t rule out acting on such a notice. ..

    Another parallel is the silence of New Zealand and its western allies in the face of mounting crisis.    I visited East Timor in April 1999 and while I was there 57 people were killed as they sheltered in a Liquica church. On my return I took advantage of an opportunity to waylay Foreign Minister Don McKinnon to show him some photos of injured victims and plead with him to try to persuade the UN to send a peacekeeping force to stem the mounting violence.  He declined. A couple of months later the UN did become involved, but with small numbers and a limited mandate based on the fiction that Indonesia’s security forces were cooperative. New Zealand sent ten unarmed policemen who did a great job against impossible odds, but our leaders still declined to criticise Indonesia or even cut off defence ties.

  15. youtube.com/watch?v=uLa_J4CcHZU

  16. David Mac 19

    Great question by Agora in the top slot this morning.

    "What will be the main issues during the next election?"

    I don't think it matters. We just need confidence in those holding the rudder.

    I think the best way to achieve that is for all members of our government to about now outlaw saying "It's National's fault."

    Don't give them the oxygen. Champions don't swing focus onto their defeated. In the business world… "It's the last guys' fault" would get laughed out of a meeting. A focused boss would say "I don't care about the last guys, only their customers, what are we doing to please them better and win more?"

  17. Sorry for posting this post a wee bit, as I’ve had a hell of week firefighting since Sunday anyway I may post something on how to get there about what happened and some of the debrief points from last nights community meeting.

    Today is the 20th Anniversary of the first Troops from the International Force East Timor (INTERFET) and this humble poster landed in ET the following early morning with the RAAF’s No2 AFDS (No2 Airfield Defence SQN) who had only competed his Airfield Defence Guard (ADG) Basic Cse.


    Viva Timor- Leste

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