The Remain War Ad? You mean the campaign that has been waged mostly by the cultural and financial elites of the capital against the ordinary people of the UK who had the temerity to imagine a different future for themselves?
Given the vast amount of bullshit and outright lies leading up to the referendum, and that the referendum was between a vague idea that anyone could project their fantasies onto versus a concrete reality, was it really their choice? Or is the better path forward a second referendum after the definite deal is nailed down, so it becomes a genuine fair choice between two definite realities?
"Given the vast amount of bullshit and outright lies leading up to the referendum, "
The Remain scare lies were proven to be false within days of the result. And continue to do so. The economy didnt crash.
The UK will save billions from the total amounts going to the EU , not just the EU budget amount but there are other billions such as the customs duties and levies(£ 2.6 bill) plus nett EU VAT (£3.0 bill) adjustment amounts
There were no lies and bullshit coming the leave side? They presented a true, honest and complete picture of what leaving would actually entail? Really?
Politics, in case you hadn’t noticed is generally a ‘vast amount of bullshit and outright lies’ and the referendum was politics so go figure.
As for a second referendum, however nicely you dress the idea up, it is nothing more than remainer desperation to overturn the democratic will of UK voters. Anyone who is a democrat and believes in the rule of law should resist the idea completely.
In all the democracies I'm eligible to participate in, decisions and results are subject to re-evaluation after a period somewhere between 2 and 6 years. Nothing is locked in forever. After circumstances have significantly changed, there is nothing whatsoever undemocratic about putting the revised question to the vote.
In western democracies decisions and results aren’t subject to re-evaluation after a period of time. Rather it’s the personnel appointed to make those decisions that are required to re-affirm their continued fitness by the voting populace to make those decisions. They are not the same thing.
No I don’t particularly. Mostly cos there ain’t gonna be a new vote and circumstances haven’t actually changed significantly enough to justify one. Unless, of course, you’re an embittered remainer casting about for any chance to rewrite history.
Y'know, I really don't have an interest in whether Brexit or remain happens. I've got no roots in the UK or the EU, and it's unlikely I'll ever visit either again in my life.
But I am interested in a people's right to self-determination. From that perspective, it really looks to me like the original referendum was an exercise in how not to make a substantial decision.
Putting up a vague nebulous concept that everyone and their dog can project their fantasies onto up against a current reality simply showed the status quo didn't have majority support. That's a very different question to whether there's majority support for a hard Brexit over status quo, or majority support for the current Brexit deal.
Looks to me like those opposed to a second referendum are embittered leavers who think any cost is worth it. Since they now have the result they want, they want to deny any possibility of reconsidering to those that may have changed their minds in the interim based on new knowledge.
You have just described how messy democracy really is …. and it all mirrors the travails of the Kaipara District Council and its Mangawhai sewerage scheme… or Napiers new Swimming pool or any other local council in the country.
Greece had a referendum on the harsh EU bailout scheme, it lost 61% to 38%, but the government had it anyway.
Norway had TWO referendums about joining the EU, both lost but Norway is effectively an EU member anyway, as its covered by Diktats from Brusells
CER is not analogous with EU membership. In stark contrast with the UK NZ still retains control over affairs that the UK has had to cede control of to Brussels. A better comparison would be to liken UK membership of the EU to what our situation would be if we had taken up Australia’s (still standing) offer to join their Federation. And I’m sure you’ll agree there’s a healthy majority of opinion against Federation in this country.
Indyref 2 is by no means a certainty either. There doesn’t appear to be a groundswell of support for it, and, like the first one I suspect the whole enterprise is likely to founder on the inhospitable shore of monetary policy. Scots are not showing any sign of warming to the idea of giving up Sterling in favour of the Euro.
The UK still has plenty of national sovereignty within the EU. I know you know that. CER is the only thing that kept us afloat in the 1980s, and has functionally integrated us as countries. It's a close enough analogy for NZ.
The UK are about to find out that life on the outside is very cold. There's no changing their course now – they are going even with the new extension.
When UK leaves the customs union and single market, then the EU will start carrying out checks on British goods. Expect delays at Dover and Rottterdam and most other ports, traffic bottlenecks, supply route disruption – even with this amount of lead time.
In time the 28% of their food they get from the EU will settle down, as will the supply of medicines. In time.
There will be a sharp fall on the Pound no matter what. After that comes plenty of foreign takeover activity because it's all cheap.
A fair number of UK farms will be wiped out when the EU subsidies stop. So expect accelerated takeovers there.
Animal product exports into the EU restricted or prohibited.
No more EU research and development funding.
Then of course the travel inconveniences: EU pet passport no longer valid, new driving permit, no access to EU healthcare, mobile devices get charged on global roaming rates.
Thankfully the withdrawal agreement gives British cities living in the EU the same rights they have now.
But for the UK, massive loss of immigration. Probable decrease of business travel and tourism.
A big jump down in the economy overall.
A transition period to 31 December next year.
A degraded democracy. 2020 is the year the UK Labour Party has to figure out a way to survive. The Conservatives will just keep pushing the patriotic button and smash them.
Scotland leaves within three years.
A diminished and damaged UK.
It'll take a while to balance out whether the UK fee to the EU was worth it.
But the UK won't recover for years if at all.
With Brexit everyone loses, but the UK loses the most.
Re running the old discredited Remain scare tactics agains ?
"George Osborne released a Treasury report on the long-term economic impact of leaving the EU. The headline message from this report was that leaving the EU would cost each household an average of £4,300 each year. Using economic modelling, ….."
Treasury here cant model next years economy and the UK numbers mostly came from modelling a drop in migration to the UK.. just as we could boost the economy , and did, by boosting migration well above usual levels . Since when is that free money that doesnt cost as well for growing infrastructure and social dislocation.
"welcome to find a UK or EU or even OECD economist who says Brexit will have a positive economic impact on the UK. "
I just showed that 'economic modelling' is mostly voodoo science.
As the UK kept their pound , perhaps you would like to ask Greece how staying in the EU with the euro has worked for them.
leaving the EU fisheries alone – although it will take up to 5 years- will be a boost for Britain especially the northern ports
The Irish were stiffed by the EU as well over the bank bailouts , they were mislead in thinking the EU would cover the government saving of the banks . They didnt , Ireland had to 'pay it all back' meanwhile Iceland just said Goodbye to its banks and let them sink.
You did nothing of the kind. You didn't even bother to cite a European or UK forecast example. Just typical laziness on your part.
Euro membership is different to EU membership. But I'm sure you could see that already.
Iceland is an irrelevancy abut the size of Christchurch.
Fishing is yet another smelly pro-Brexit lie. Fishing is .12% of the UK economy. Prepare for "origin" documents for each boat and each catch. Who knows if they will be able to sell their shellfish into the EU at all?
Ireland had the freedom – while within the EU – to form its own corporate tax settings and has completely re-set its economy. It's booming.
"You are welcome to find a UK or EU or even OECD economist who says Brexit will have a positive economic impact on the UK."
I don't anyone is saying that Brexit will have a "positive economic impact" on the UK, at least in the short term term; however, I think the negatives are being overstated deliberately for political purposes, and the benefits of remaining overstated.
Yanis Varoufakis, who at the time of the referendum campaigned on behalf of the Remain option, was arguing that the UK should remain in the EU and reform it from within. Fat chance of that though, so it's probably better she gets out.
Those who promoted the benefits of leaving have been shown to be liars, and they are the ones in power continuing to both tell and implement those lies.
Remember in 2012 when the London Olympics were opened? The UK proposed itself to the world as a place of inclusiveness, global cooperation, expansiveness, confidence, renewed tradition, and a great sense of fun?
Gone.
Since the referendum, immigration into the UK has crashed, the Pound has nosedived, and the government is proposing a minimum immigrant entry salary into the UK of 36,000 Pounds which is great if you're a banker but little else.
Thankfully for the UK the economy is overall so strong that this is as good a time as any to Brexit.
I was not in London in 2012 so I'm not likely to remember it. However, I think that what has been lost since then was probably lost long before the referendum. The GFC in 2008 was probably a more important influence.
Better they get out now before EU policies weaken Britain further.
Most of the spin in the forecasts is done with a simple ruse. The leave forecasts bias towards scenarios where the UK enters a mild recession on leaving and the government doesn't react. This causes a deep recession. The model has the same outcome of course when looking at similar scenarios with the UK in the EU.
We know this as later bank of england forecasts didn't match up and they admitted treasury put pressure on them to fiddle the earlier ones (which they had).
And yet it’s the areas where sovereignty has had to be ceded to Brussels that have rankled the most over the years and been the main drivers of the referendum result.
CER is not the same as EU membership, it’s a trade and freedom of movement deal between NZ and Australia. And good on us for getting it when we did. Given the state of politics in Australia nowadays we would never be able to achieve anything like it today. Since we got it however, we’ve got plenty of trade deals with other countries too. Ironically Britain would love a CER type deal with Europe and the freedom to strike other deals across the globe but they can’t while they stay in Europe.
As for the idea that Britain is going to feel the cold shoulder of economic ruin outside of the bloc. This may well come to pass but guess what, history is littered with examples of nation-states making decisions that run counter to their economic prospects, usually because there are other, higher interests at stake. Times made indeed be tough in Blighty, probably for quite some time. It seems though that enough people there have decided the risk is worthwhile.
The EU benefits mainly countries with large agricultural sector or they are new entries which get EU giveways. Plus large manufacturing companies can send their assembly and production plants to low wage areas- even so a car plant in Slovakia will have contract only workers shipped in from Romania.
Is Britains Cornwall and Devon really an underprivileged area that needs EU regional assistance.
Greenland is the population of Nelson, so no one gave a damn. It's a client state of Denmark and the US military, beset by suicide and depression and ecological ruin.
Singapore isn't in the EU, nor Malaysia. You can run an argument about size optimization for states and the role of Lee Kuan Yew over thirty years, versus Malay integration, if you like.
Cornwall and Devon are dominated by massive private estates, some of them royal. They don't benefit from EU projects. Some may get subsidies as you say, but you can find out what the benefits are for each location here: https://www.myeu.uk
We'll only really figure out the benefits of the EU once the UK leaves. The EU has done a spectacularly poor job of either reforming internally or selling its positives.
I watched quite a bit of the Commons last night and the more I see Boris Johnston, the more he comes across to me as a patronising, boorish, lying bastard who should be kept well away from the levers of power.
Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand speaks clearly, cogently and you get the impression he is the one telling the truth.
I cannot understand why the British media in particular try to portray Corbyn as the boorish, lying one and Johnston as the people's saviour when anyone with half a brain can see for themselves it's the other way round.
Golly – that is a real Blip's list. (Or can I say golly now?)
He is one of the great AotW. A rambunctious spieler who speaks loud and confidently and attracts the enthusiasm of the mindless but aspirational (a febrile and easily ignited mass). I have seen a group excited by the declamations of someone voluble appoint that person as leader on the spot, to their discomfort.
As for ScottGN raising the narrow majority of people fed blatant lies, and voting for change with the smallest majority to holy writ, one can only wonder at the simple-minded mantra of theory being spouted in the face of practical and informed reason. This also from Bryan Gould.
The people in UK were unaware that their vote of dissatisfaction was likely to be used to break up the basics of their society, so they did not understand the need to apply themselves to attending workshops on the political ramifications and learn all the consequences, known and possible. Can I just have my understanding confirmed by one of the wise here: –
1 Was the referendum a binding one?
2 Or was it considered by the populace more as an expression of feeling, a snapshot of that point in time, more like an important poll?
Law grinds the poor, and rich men rule the law.
Oliver Goldsmith Author Profession: Poet Nationality: Irish Born: November 10, 1730 Died: April 4, 1774
Was the referendum a binding one or not? So many people making statements of what should be done and does anyone know this important point? I want one of the wise people who come here with ideas about how right Brexit is and listen to the voice of the people blah blah. Is everyone, we and the UK voters, informed about the facts of this matter.?
You always cloud the issue dou. Thank you, if you are right about that information – not binding. I wanted to establish the point, not have your brownwash over it afterwards.
Although legally the referendum was non-binding, the government of that time had promised to implement the result.[1] The succeeding government initiated the official EU withdrawal process on 29 March 2017, meaning that the UK was due to leave the EU before 11PM GMT on 29 March 2019, when the two-year period for Brexit negotiations expired.[2]
Just as NZs first MMP referendum wasnt legally binding either.
The 2nd vote wasnt part of the 'process' or mentioned during the first vote
The 2nd vote was indroduced by Bolgers government to kill off MPP, along with the massive Shirtcliffe led campaign against MMP who predicted – yes just like the Brexit one- that old chesnut economic ruin
Always good to provide a link, even if it is to Wikipedia, to give comments a certain level of validity, if you know what I mean; it sometimes helps to make it less personal. Nowadays, we don’t just take people’s word for it because we can’t, sadly.
DoU Brexit was what we were talking about. You diverted the thread to NZ. Can't you keep to the point when you find something elsewhere to scotch your argument. I wasn't talking round the subject of referendums – it was this UK one, and how the law was drawn up. Badly I think. But you go off-piste and hey presto you made a point which has little relevance.
Thanks Incognito – I did want to hear something pretty factual, not just Dous version or opinion.
So it was cloudy then, as to whether it would go ahead. If a local Council came up with that sort of policy machinery that had great loopholes in it, voters, ratepayers, taxpayers, small business etc would have been up in arms about it. When it is an august body that sits on green leather? seats, they shouldn't get a free pass out of jail.
Them and their policy writers and those whose job it is to keep legislation fit for purpose should get a boot in the backside (no important vote like that should pass on a simple majority – 75-80% rather.) Give them the Bad Sir Brian Botany treatment. A delightful rhyming piece:
Sir Brian went a journey and he found a lot of duckweed.
They pulled him out and dried him and they blipped him on the head.
They took him by the breeches
And they hurled him into ditches
And they pushed him under waterfalls and this is what they said:…
To save the ship (Britannia) from the rocks they steered it into a storm and now they’ve lost all bearings. The Officers say “trust us, we know what we’re doing as we were borne to steer this ship so stay calm and carry on”. The deckhands and crew below deck are in for a rough sailing while the Officers dine in their quarters. As it has always been and always will be.
I don't think the referendum was binding, but nor do I think it was just an "expression of feeling". I'm pretty sure the people who voted to leave believed that that the UK would leave if enough people voted the same way. Or that the UK would walk away from the EU if the opposite turned out to be the case.
Edit
mikesh You are rather loose with your political procedures, a bit easy peasy. For instance what do you consider enough people voting would look like. The whole question about national matters of great world importance, and to those of the country that have their lives affected, is should changes be on a simple majority it 50.5 or 51% to 49%. Those few points at the centre become crucial – so easy to bribe a sizable group to vote for you in ways that are just outside any controlling law. I think you are too trusting to have a vote.
I say 70-80% should be required for a majority win on matters of great importance as this is.
The British House of Commons can be dissolved and an election held before the expiry of its 5-year term by a vote of two-thirds of the membership of the House of Commons since 2011 under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. This is the only supermajority required in the British Constitution. [my italics]
Oh thanks BG. I get so nervous these days. There is a sort of etiquette book on-line called the Urban Dictionary which I consult sometimes but I tend to go into a faint sometimes after reading it.
I have a 100 year old book of etiquette and may be consulted between the hours of 10.00 and 11.00am on Sundays on any matters of great delicacy on which people of a sensitive and gentle disposition wish to receive the old-fashioned advice that is such an emollient in social matters.
Boris may well be the biggest arsehole who ever lived Anne but that’s irrelevant. Westminster has a job to do, having asked the people of the UK to make a choice, they should get on with implementation of the decision they were given.
I would like to point out that anyone who was a day/a week or a month short of 18 did not vote. That is an aweful lot of people who did not get the right to decide their future, yet who is considered old enough to work, pay taxes and such.
I personally think that indeed the voting age for referendums that impact the life of everyone to that extend should have been at least 15 – which is also the age one is considered old enough to work fulltime and pay taxes.
In the same i would support a cut of age for people say over 75. Why? They will most likely not be affected by anything much.
Democracy you say? Ha, democracy depends on the sanity of the populace, and frankly people believing they can go back to the 1850's when everyone knew their place, especially the foreigners, the brown ones, the women ones, the children ones etc etc etc are not what i would consider 'sane'.
And we, as much as poeple else where we don't have a democracy, we have a selection of the most unsuited people – generally by way of birth, access to money and connections – and we get to choose every few years the least unpalatble option. Yei! Democracy!
"all their own fault for not voting – even when they are not allowed to vote."
The best nonsense comment of the week.
You have no real idea of what 16-18 yrs think and want, they arent social activists from well off families like you probably think.
Remember NZs Sue Bradford , a young activist- daughter of a professor of cell biology
The real problem is the 'teenage brain', social media campaigns financed by business and conservative political groups will have a field day with 'teenage brains'.
Money will win that game rather than ideas
For example Plenty of social tricks in music to get young woman to like it – digital high pitched voices etc.
We trusted them when we lowered the drinking age from 21 to 18.
It was a total disaster.
Property ownership is not a qualification of voting.
The week before the local government elections, hundreds of thousands of young people marched seeking political change. Next week, with voting papers sent out, worst voting turnout in a century.
So far there's no evidence they'd use it if they even got it.
The week before the local government elections, hundreds of thousands of young people marched seeking political change. Next week, with voting papers sent out, worst voting turnout in a century.
To young people this makes sense, I reckon, but to you it clearly doesn’t. Ergo, you’re not a young person.
Turnout was woefully low. Ergo, voters have no need for the vote then. At least young people get off their butts for and about stuff that matters to them, even if it might be fleetingly. Over time, they will become as apathetic as the rest of the electorate and stop acting for the greater good and opt for fretting about the QV of their house(s) instead.
Not much democracy in mass low skill immigration – our self-styled "masters" imposed that massive clusterfuck on us without asking – they knew perfectly well what the response would be. Not much democracy in rubber stamping offshore land sales when a substantial majority oppose it absolutely, or signing up for a TPP deal with investor state provisions. Democracy is such an implicit virtue even North Korea pretends to it – but try to access your Labour electorate MP about slave fishing and they'll gaslight you from asshole to breakfast – they love slave fishing, and hate NZ workers with a passion. Expect them to do their job however, and you will be disappointed. For decades, the despicable pieces of crap.
Everybody has issues that strike close to the bone.
It was my career. Government collaborated with illegal practice and basically fucked my life. We expect illegality from Gnats, they are corrupt subhuman scum who, at best, belong in prison. But Labour pretended, and still pretend to progressive values. Slavery is not consistent with that pretention.
The fisheries have failed to develop. They are not measurably more sustainable. They have failed in their treaty obligations, and their international labour standards responsibilities.
We ordinary mortals suffer life-ruining consequences if we fall short of our responsibilities. As democratic citizens we get the government we choose to accept. I do not accept Labour's toleration of slave fishing – they need to clean up their act. I'd like a few personal apologies too, from all the worthless lying stooges I've raised it with, who by collaborating, have chosen to be accomplices after the fact.
There are a few aphorisms doing the rounds such as the invisible hand and free market wisdom and its rational consumers. These are statements or constructs rather about us. I think it’s high time we wise up.
Perhaps parents should also cast a vote on behalf of their infant children, who will also be affected in the future lives by the decision. Such infants do not have time to visit the polling booths themselves in between breast feeding episodes and sleeping.
Doable, if both parents take turns at breastfeeding and looking after the sleeping defenceless infants. Assuming both parents are together in the same household otherwise a babysitter needs to be called in.
For what it’s worth I support lowering the voting age to 16 generally. And doing so would have almost certainly delivered a different result in the referendum.
The vote was conducted under the electoral rules in place at the time though and to suggest that it is somehow invalid because of that is nonsense.
Fake news, lies, misrepresentations etc have always been a part of political campaigns. I think it's safe to suggest that in recent years the bar has become very low. I don't think any rational person would argue that this is good for democracy. 'A lie is halfway around the world before Truth has it's boots on.
Where is this trend going to take us? I'm not sure there is a solution to this in law. It will have to come from the voters, but so long as there is political benefit to be gained by trickery and deception you won't see any progress.
Fanciful dreams always give the result you want , thats the reason for using them.
Should we only have those over 50 vote on retirement and super questions 'because its their future'…thats just as silly as your talk about 16 yr voting
You still try very hard to not understand what i have said.
I am all for people who don't receive the super – aka our overloard in parliament – to not vote ever on restriction super or raising the retirment age.
Yeah, i would not mind a bit of exclusion for people who are not affected by the choice to make to make these choices for others.
But the vote of Brexit was 3.5 years ago, and the only ones screwed over royally in this case are those that are now in their twenties and they still have the same incompetend and un – affected lords fucking up their lives with no recourse.
The House of Lords is strongly pro Remain…. what do you think that tells you about the age and social class who have benefited most from the EU and continue to so.
A UBI would not be of much benefit to me since I am already receiving National Super. However I would still vote for it on the grounds that it would be good for the country.
Apples with oranges. MMP was still an internal voting system.
Brexit breaks down carefully crafted measures and agreements with other nations using diplomacy and collaborative approaches, in some countries after nasty armed encounters. The Irish are a close example, have found the system okay and useful for general value. The free interflow to and from Europe which breaks down dislikes and disdain with familiarity from one country to another, modernises cultural backwaters, and stopped the UK from being insular in cultural attitudes, is being thrown out petulantly.
The hatred of EU bureaucracy isn't because it is worse than that of the UK itself. And the EU backs modern safeguards for human rights and respect that the USA is unable to match, being fuller of BS than the EU. People who have settled outside the UK are being forced to repatriate as their mutually agreed social benefits will come to an end.
It is a repeat of what Australia is doing to NZ, gradually. And seems connected with what the USA is doing as it flexes its flabby muscles, preparing to introduce automaton forces. If the USA continues in its reckless, hapless way and the UK binds into its systems, it is possible that the west will be involved in war again.
@Duke so the first MMP referendum (non-binding) had turnout of 55%, of whom 85% (1.2M) wanted change. Then the second referendum (binding) had turnout of 83%, of whom 54% wanted change.
I wasn't in the country then, so I've got no idea of the general mood of the country then (except for the timeless general disgust at politicians).
But it seems to me when presented with a non-binding question for yet-to-be-defined change (1st MMP and Brexit), there's a whole lot of meh going around, with the greatest motivation among those wanting to send a middle finger message to pollies. But for the 2nd MMP referendum, there may have been a sense of "shee-it, this is really happening" which turned a lot of the previous mehs into voters.
In terms of raw numbers, the first MMP referendum had 1031k votes for change (and the MMP option got 791k), 186k for status quo. The second referendum got 1033k votes for change, 885k for status quo. So fuck all difference in how many people wanted change, but a vast increase in the turnout for status quo.
It's not hard to imagine a similar thing happening if Brexit get a second referendum.
Can't agree ScottGN. The outcome of the referendum was narrow. Not much in it at all. Many who voted Leave were later to recant and say they didn't understand what Leave meant and if there were another referendum they would vote Remain. That's not made up. It was widely reported in the British Press.
And it is highly relevant having an arsehole as a leader. They can do so much damage in the course of their term in office. Look at Trump. A disaster in every sense of the word.
We had one of our own once who, admittedly, seems tame in comparison to Trump. I refer to Muldoon.
Leave meant leave. A simple idea at its heart. What you really mean was didnt understand 'all consequences' Even now can ordinary people understand the Irish backstop and the Irish sea border concepts.
Do the people who voted for 'Scottish independence' had any real idea of the consequences .
From what I understood about Scotlands independence vote was some thought the EU would pay for Scotland budget top up they get from Westminister now.
Look at NZs MMP many people even now dont know how it really works, especially if you lose electorate seats the gain is made in list seats. A common mistake made by media people who should know better
"it's done the Scottish independence movement no end of good."
So leaving the EU is bad , but leaving the UK is good. Only twisted logic could suggest that.
Scotland will have to have the Euro, a hard border with England and no more Westminster subsidies. Good luck with thinking the EU will pay the core government operating expenses
I didn't say independence was good, I said the last few years have done the independence cause no end of good.
Because 62% of Scots voted against brexit, and they're seeing it inflicted upon them in the most stupid manner imaginable.
Now maybe the money transfers go more one way than the other. The hard border isn't as much of an issue for Scotland as it is for Northern Ireland. But Scotland could well be better off in the EU and outside Britain than the other way around.
I seem to recall that normally you are much better at reading comprehension. My comments were in relation to the brexit bullshit helping the independence cause, not that the independence cause was an outright majority.
dou Excuses for rigid authoritarianism. The folk won't bother so don't set it out in plain terms so they can understand. In a pros and cons way – which could be done with the general aims easily.
If you believe it's not worth the bother because people won't read it or understand it, you are reflecting the worst aspects of the Westminster system that cater to class-oriented mendacity.
What you really mean was didnt understand 'all consequences'
Indeed it was. There are lots of people who will never understand electoral systems – or any other system – because they haven't the marbles and it would seem to include more than a few of our media.
I accidently bought a HoS today thinking it was the SST (yep wasn't wearing my glasses 🙁 ) and read HDPA's latest article. Talk about a diatribe of misquotes, misinterpretations, misunderstandings and mischievous inaccuracies.
David Slack would have been a far more enjoyable read. 🙁 🙁
"Many who voted Leave were later to recant and say they didn't understand what Leave meant and if there were another referendum they would vote Remain. That's not made up. It was widely reported in the British Press."
I heard of one person who said that. Was there also another?
According to the British media not long after the result came through, there were lots of them. But you'll have to take my word for it because I'm not going to hunt for them. Got better things to do with my time.
I had a friend come and watch and be bought a mate.
We were talking about team culture and the article on Stuff about all the players unload the baggage from the bus. He reckons the ABs always clean up the changing room after a test.
It reiterates the message 'Go fast, go alone. Go far, go together'.
She's got it all sorted if you are feeling confused. Sounds a bit like today's Mother Beeton's book on etiquette of old.
11.30 Kitty Flanagan's 488 Rules For Life Radionz today
The very witty Kitty Flanagan has helpfully put together a comprehensive guide to modern behaviour, and help everyone around you be a bit less irritating, with her new book, 488 Rules For Life: The Thankless Art of Being Correct.
She covers the important things: work microwave etiquette involving last night's fish curry, walking and texting, wearing far too much perfume on public transport, or what to do with the last of the toilet paper.
Oh, and whether middle-aged men should have ponytails. (Spoiler alert… They shouldn't.) It began as a bit of a joke on Kitty's popular segment on ABC TV's The Weekly, and her publishers reckon the resulting book has the power to change society.
Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain. From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a …
the rest here….
Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain. From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a …
"Hillary Clinton suggests Russians are 'grooming' Tulsi Gabbard for third-party run"
Clinton never mentioned Tulsi Gabbards name !
Gabbard has outed herself as Moscows plant.
Kamala Harris’s press manager has been more specific about Gabbard s Moscow connections.
Gabbard is often featured on RT News.
“Gabbard is an interesting case, because she does have some foreign policy objectives that align with Russia, so it would make sense that a candidate who is known as an Assad apologist is seeing favorable tweets and headlines from some sort of Russian apparatus.” https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/tulsi-gabbard-russia/
If I were a political satirist right now I'd be seriously considering alternative careers. How could anyone make up stuff that tops what really happening?
Crooked Hillary Clinton just called the respected environmentalist and Green Party candidate, Jill Stein, a “Russian Asset.” They need a Green Party more than ever after looking at the Democrats disastrous environmental program!
Too bad it's not the 1950's useful idiots like you, Andre and Joe 90 would have been right in your element disseminating paranoia, outing actors, artists, writers etc with the panty hose wearing pervert McCarthy..oh well I guess lates better than never with you dummies.
By the way that link to daily dot is a real low brow shit piece of propaganda, it's so over that top it really could have come staight out of the 50's, but you are in sooo deep you lot can't see the plainly obvious anymore..so here you go guys, this should be up your ally..
Of couse I forgot with you lot winning is everything, even if that means leaving all your ethics principles and morals on the floor to gain the win…
But to give you an answer, again your analysis is flawed as per usual, Gabbard is and has alwyas been about changing the direction of the Democratic party, primarily from one that supports and often enacts aggressive foreign interventions, to one that dosen't.
I am not actually a Gabbard supporter, but I do happen to support that particular extremely important foreign policy platform that she is pushing.
I would say that her own plan for these elections would be that she would like to see Sanders win, and picks up a (well deserved) position in his administration.
I'm sure if you squint really hard and ignore logic and basic English, you might see it that way.
Last time I counted the nominees, "several" good 'uns would leave at least a "solid half dozen" banalities, and "a couple" of duds have already withdrawn.
Yeah it is hard to imagine what sort of mental gymnastics must go in in the top four inches of a person who is trying to tell themselves that they are at all 'progressive' or left , while at the same time defending Clinton and the centrist liberal ideology…must be quite a workout.
Not sure what you are talking about, Clinton is the one who attacked Gabbard yesterday, Clinton is the one who keeps trying unsuccessfully to remain relevant..in fact I don't give a fuck about her.
If the grooming hat doesn't fit Gabbard, then the imprecise reference wasn't a slur on Gabbard. If the hat does fit Gabbard, then it's a simple truth that the hat fits Gabbard.
But whatevs, you're totally not bovvered anyway, you don't look bovvered at all, lol
You are repeating falsehoods Adrian, Clinton never mentioned Gabbards name – she said a democratic candidate. She also talked about Jill Stein and Trumps possible Russia links.
Kamal Harris's people were talking about Gabbard and Moscow 2 weeks back
You dont GaF , but bought the whole matter up. geez
Are you serious, every one knows Clinon was talking about Gabbard..they where meant too..holy shit man, it's lucky we aren't talking on the phone I might have had to do this….
The Russiagate conspiracy is the best asset Trump has, didn't see the Democrates losing their shit over all the things that Trump has done to make peoples lives worse in the US and around the world, didn't see them vote against the biggest military budget ever or the huge tax cuts for the wealthest in the States…nope their main focus for three whole years has been Russia Russia Russia.
All this while poll after poll showed that the majority of US citizens don't care about Russia or Russiagate.
And yet here you lot are, stepping right in line with a narritive that no one wants to hear, supporting a debunked conspiracy that is seriously in danger of helping re-elect Trump…job well done boys…keep flogging that dead horse.
OK yes you are right,that was wrong on the tax cuts, what I was meant to say was that the Democates didn't use that as their or similar Trump policies to form the spearhead of their push back to Trump, they instead kept using Russia as their main (blunt) weapon of attack.
Will the but her emails/the server, the server crowd stfu and go back to despising her for being her?
A State Department investigation into former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s private email account found no widespread effort by her aides or other staffers to mishandle classified information.
The three-year-long investigation by State’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security concluded that 38 individuals committed a total of 91 security violations involving emails sent to or from Clinton’s private server.
Somehow it seems a little less offensively corrupt to be hauling in megacoin from Wall Street speeches after your term in office than if you do it immediately before running for office.
Little birds and big adults can both be vulnerable, needing food and housing. Do we have to set up Give a little accounts in a country that has squeezed $7 billion of returns from various places but much from paying beneficiaries less than required and puting barriers in their way for bettering their lives. And having flexible workers who sacrifice their health and wellbeing while they work here and there at odd hours and often on call so hard to plan. Having a birthday party for your 5 year old, phone call, we are short-handed. Letall have a sweet life in NZ again and start spending that $7 billion on human investment giving enjoyment, education and security in people's lives.
So many of us need help. Perhaps the government could pay the poor to look after the nation's animals. The government has been instrumental in causing businesses to fold and import companies grow fat on replacing our own manufactures. So look for other jobs that need doing so we can put those spare hours into paid kaitiaki work. 💡 💡
Wonder who it was that got through to the bilious fake-bronze baboon that it's actually illegal for a government employee to award government contracts to their own businesses, and what arguments they used? Let alone that it's a glaring breach of two separate constitutional clauses, and therefore clearly impeachable as a standalone offence.
…an overall decline in most aspects surveyed. This is not surprising given the culmulative effects of overcrowding and understaffing experienced thoughout New Zealand prisons.
For instance:
(a) poor ventilation in cells, and cells being too hot in summer and too cold in winter. In Auckland at the end of December last year we received reports of night time cell termperatures of 27 degrees.
(b) lack of access to toilets, specifically insufficient access to toilets while being transferred, and while in yards and in day-rooms. As one person put it, “going toilet in a small bottle on a moving vehicle is extremely hard. A number of us spilled it, missed altogether, and overfilled the bottles.”
•Chapo’s son was LET GO after being captured by the Mexican Army. MX Govt sources tell @Reforma that this was done to protect citizens after today’s gun battles in Culiacán
•Astonishing at so many levels. Huge impact for policy but even more for Mexico’s psyche👇 pic.twitter.com/YXX1oBxBTd
Chris Hipkins has become New Zealand’s 41st prime minister following Ardern’s unexpected resignation—perhaps the bold and unpredictable move Labour needed to improve its election chances. Just six days into his premiership and Labour had its first lead over National in thirteen weeks. National has had a largely uninterrupted run of ...
Good people can come into your life imperceptibly. It can seem they’re just there one day being remarkable. Nat Torkington, for instance.We were both online from the early days, I’m assuming that’s where we first connected; maybe in the UseNet newsgroups, or maybe later through Public Address.But it was when ...
One of New Zealand’s biggest electricity generators, Genesis Energy, has given the go-ahead for a large solar farm near Lauriston on the Canterbury Plains, an hour’s drive south of Christchurch. It is part of Genesis’ strategy of replacing thermal baseload with renewable generation – a mix of wind and solar. ...
Buzz from the Beehive We found just one fresh announcement on the Beehive website this morning, when we made our first visit since 4 February. It was posted in the name of Nanaia Mahuta, our Minister of Foreign Affairs, and explained why she was not at Waitangi at the weekend. ...
Hipkins is doing the right thing for New Zealanders already living in Australia, but there’s now a growing risk of a fresh surge of net emigration of frustrated young Kiwis across the Tasman. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Employers here in Aotearoa are desperate to keep their best-trained, most-productive ...
This post contains two guest posts from readers, both of which were sent to us after the flooding on Friday 27 January, both of which discuss how we handle our stormwater. This is a guest post from Ed Clayton, who’s written for us before about Auckland’s relationship with freshwater, ...
TLDR: For paying subscribers, here’s the key breaking news, scoops and links I’ve found since 4 am this morning, as of 7 am, including:A 7.8 magnitude earthquake killed more than 2,200 in Turkey near its border with Syria; ReutersMetService has warned a new cyclone is forming north of Aotearoa that ...
The politics of Waitangi and the Treaty evident over the weekend have moved into a new space. The politics of Waitangi and the Treaty evident over the weekend have moved into a new space. There is a new wave of Maori activism, which sees the Treaty as a living ...
Originally published by The Hill After decades of failure to pass major federal climate legislation, Congress finally broke through last year with the Inflation Reduction Act and its close to $400 billion in clean energy investments. Energy modeling experts estimated that these provisions would help the U.S. cut its carbon pollution ...
Apology Accepted? “I dropped the ball on Friday, I was too slow to be seen …The communications weren’t fast enough – including mine. I’m sorry for that.”–Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown.HOW OFTEN do politicians apologise? Sincerely apologise? Not offer voters the weasel words: “If my actions have offended anyone, then I ...
At first blush, Christopher Luxon’s comment at the parliamentary powhiri at Waitangi this year sounded tone deaf. The Leader of the Opposition in talking about the Treaty of Waitangi described New Zealand as “a little experiment”. It seemed to diminish the treaty and the very idea of our nation. Yet ...
THE (new) Prime Minister said nobody understands what co-governance means, later modified to that there were so many varying interpretations that there was no common understanding. BRIAN EASTON writes: Co-governance cannot be derived from the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It does not use the word. It ...
A brief postscript to yesterday’s newsletter…Watching the predawn speeches just now, the reverence of those speaking and the respectful nature of those listening under umbrellas in the dark. I felt a great sadness at the words from Christopher Luxon last evening still in my head. The singing in the dark accompanied ...
by Don Franks While on holiday,I stayed a few days in Scotland with a friend who showed me one of the country’s great working-class achievements. It was a few miles out of central Edinburgh, a huge cantilever bridge across the river Forth. The Forth Bridge was the first major structure ...
Time To Call A Halt: Chris Hipkins knows that iwi leaders possess the means to make life very difficult for his government. Notwithstanding their objections, however, the Prime Minister’s direction of travel – already clearly signalled by his very public demotion of Nanaia Mahuta – must be confirmed by an emphatic and ...
A chronological listing of news articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 29, 2023 thru Sat, Feb 4, 2023. Story of the Week Social change more important than physical tipping points1.5-degree Goal not plausible Photo: CLICCS / Universität Hamburg Limiting global ...
So Long - And Thanks For All The Fish: In the two-and-a-bit years since Jacinda Ardern’s electoral triumph of 2020, virtually every decision she made had gone politically awry. In the minds of many thousands of voters a chilling metamorphosis had taken place. The Faerie Queen had become the Wicked ...
Look at us here on our beautiful islands in the South Pacific at the start of 2023, we have come so far.Ten days ago we saw a Māori Governor General swearing in our new PM and our first Pasifika Deputy PM, ahead of this year’s parliament where they will be ...
The Herald’s headline writers are at it again! A sensible and balanced piece by Liam Dann on the battle against inflation carries a headline that suggests that NZ is doing worse than the rest of the world. Check it out and see for yourself if I am right. Is this ...
Photo by Anna Demianenko on UnsplashTLDR: Here’s my longer reads and listens for the weekend for sharing with The Kaka’s paying subscribers. I’ve opened this one up for all to give everyone a taste of the sorts of extras you get as a full paying subscriber.Subscribe nowDeeper reads and listens ...
Hello from the middle of a long weekend where I’m letting the last few days unspool, not ready, not yet, to give words to the hardest of what we heard.Instead, today, here are some good words from other people.Mother CourageWhen I wrote last year about Mum and Dad’s move to ...
Workers Now is a new slate of candidates contesting this year’s general election. James Robb and Don Franks are the people behind this initiative and they are hoping to put the spotlight on working people’s interests. Both are seasoned activists who have campaigned for workers’ rights over many decades. Here is ...
Buzz from the Beehive Politicians keen to curry favour with Māori tribal leaders have headed north for Waitangi weekend. More than a few million dollars of public funding are headed north, too. Not all of this money is being trumpeted on the Beehive website, the Government’s official website. ...
Insurers face claims of over $500 million for cars, homes and property damaged in the floods. They are already putting up premiums and pulling insurance from properties deemed at high risk of flooding. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTLDR: This week in the podcast of our weekly hoon webinar for paying subscribers, ...
Our Cranky Uncle Game can already be played in eight languages: English, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish. About 15 more languages are in the works at various stages of completion or have been offered to be done. To kick off the new year, we checked with how ...
The (new) Prime Minister said nobody understands what co-governance means, later modified to that there were so many varying interpretations that there was no common understanding.Co-governance cannot be derived from the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It does not use the word. It refers to ‘government’ on ...
It’s that time of the week again when and I co-host our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kaka. Jump on this link for our chat about the week’s news with special guests Auckland Central MP Chloe Swarbrick and Auckland City Councillor Julie Fairey, including:Auckland’s catastrophic floods, which ...
In March last year, in a panic over rising petrol prices caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the government made a poor decision, "temporarily" cutting fuel excise tax by 25 cents a litre. Of course, it turned out not to be temporary at all, having been extended in May, July, ...
This month’s open thread for climate related topics. Please be constructive, polite, and succinct. The post Unforced variations: Feb 2023 first appeared on RealClimate. ...
Buzz from the Beehive Two fresh press releases had been posted when we checked the Beehive website at noon, both of them posted yesterday. In one statement, in the runup to Waitangi Day, Maori Crown Relations Minister Kelvin Davis drew attention to happenings on a Northland battle site in 1845. ...
It’s that time of the week again when I’m on the site for an hour for a chat in an Ask Me Anything with paying subscribers to The Kaka. Jump in for a chat on anything, including:Auckland’s catastrophic floods, which are set to cost insurers and the Government well over ...
Australia’s Treasurer Jim Chalmers (left) has published a 6,000 word manifesto called ‘Capitalism after the Crises’ arguing for ‘values-based capitalism’. Yet here in NZ we hear the same stale old rhetoric unchanged from the 1990s and early 2000s. Photo: Getty ImagesTLDR: The rest of the world is talking about inflation ...
A couple of weeks ago, after NCEA results came out, my son’s enrolment at Auckland Uni for this year was confirmed - he is doing a BSc majoring in Statistics. Well that is the plan now, who knows what will take his interest once he starts.I spent a bit of ...
Kia ora. What a week! We hope you’ve all come through last weekend’s extreme weather event relatively dry and safe. Header image: stormwater ponds at Hobsonville Point. Image via Twitter. The week in Greater Auckland There’s been a storm of information and debate since the worst of the flooding ...
Hi,At 4.43pm yesterday it arrived — a cease and desist letter from the guy I mentioned in my last newsletter. I’d written an article about “WEWE”, a global multi-level marketing scam making in-roads into New Zealand. MLMs are terrible for many of the same reasons megachurches are terrible, and I ...
Time To Call A Halt: Chris Hipkins knows that iwi leaders possess the means to make life very difficult for his government. Notwithstanding their objections, however, the Prime Minister’s direction of travel – already clearly signalled by his very public demotion of Nanaia Mahuta – must be confirmed by an emphatic ...
Open access notables Via PNAS, Ceylan, Anderson & Wood present a paper squarely in the center of the Skeptical Science wheelhouse: Sharing of misinformation is habitual, not just lazy or biased. The signficance statement is obvious catnip: Misinformation is a worldwide concern carrying socioeconomic and political consequences. What drives ...
Mark White from the Left free speech organisation Plebity looks at the disturbing trend of ‘book burning’ on US campuses In the abstract, people mostly agree that book banning is a bad thing. The Nazis did us the favor of being very clear about it and literally burning books, but ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has undergone a stern baptisim of fire in his first week in his new job, but it doesn’t get any easier. Next week, he has a vital meeting in Canberra with his Australian counterpart Anthony Albanese, where he has to establish ...
As PM Chris Hipkins says, it’s a “no brainer” to extend the fuel tax cut, half price public subsidy and the cut to the road user levy until mid-year. A no braoner if the prime purpose is to ease the burden on people struggling to cope with the cost of ...
Buzz from the Beehive Cost-of-living pressures loomed large in Beehive announcements over the past 24 hours. The PM was obviously keen to announce further measures to keep those costs in check and demonstrate he means business when he talks of focusing his government on bread-and-butter issues. His statement was headed ...
Poor Mike Hosking. He has revealed himself in his most recent diatribe to be one of those public figures who is defined, not by who he is, but by who he isn’t, or at least not by what he is for, but by what he is against. Jacinda’s departure has ...
New Zealand is the second least corrupt country on earth according to the latest Corruption Perception Index published yesterday by Transparency International. But how much does this reflect reality? The problem with being continually feted for world-leading political integrity – which the Beehive and government departments love to boast about ...
TLDR: Including my pick of the news and other links in my checks around the news sites since 4am. Paying subscribers can see them all below the fold.In Aotearoa’s political economyBrown vs Fish Read more ...
TLDR: Including my pick of the news and other links in my checks around the news sites since 4am. Paying subscribers can see them all below the fold.In Aotearoa’s political economyBrown vs Fish Read more ...
In other countries, the target-rich cohorts of swinging voters are given labels such as ‘Mondeo Man’, ‘White Van Man,’ ‘Soccer Moms’ and ‘Little Aussie Battlers.’ Here, the easiest shorthand is ‘Ford Ranger Man’ – as seen here parked outside a Herne Bay restaurant, inbetween two SUVs. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / ...
In other countries, the target-rich cohorts of swinging voters are given labels such as ‘Mondeo Man’, ‘White Van Man,’ ‘Soccer Moms’ and ‘Little Aussie Battlers.’ Here, the easiest shorthand is ‘Ford Ranger Man’ – as seen here parked outside a Herne Bay restaurant, inbetween two SUVs. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / ...
Transport Minister and now also Minister for Auckland, Michael Wood has confirmed that the light rail project is part of the government’s policy refocus. Wood said the light rail project was under review as part of a ministerial refocus on key Government projects. “We are undertaking a stocktake about how ...
Sometime before the new Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced that this year would be about “bread and butter issues”, National’s finance spokesperson Nicola Willis decided to move from Wellington Central and stand for Ohariu, which spreads across north Wellington from the central city to Johnsonville and Tawa. It’s an ...
They say a week is a long time in politics. For Mayor Wayne Brown, turns out 24 hours was long enough for many of us to see, quite obviously, “something isn’t right here…”. That in fact, a lot was going wrong. Very wrong indeed.Mainly because it turns ...
One of the most effective, and successful, graphics developed by Skeptical Science is the escalator. The escalator shows how global surface temperature anomalies vary with time, and illustrates how "contrarians" tend to cherry-pick short time intervals so as to argue that there has been no recent warming, while "realists" recognise ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Here’s a quick roundup of the news today for paying subscribers on a slightly frantic, very wet, and then very warm day. In Aotearoa’s political economy today Read more ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Here’s a quick roundup of the news today for paying subscribers on a slightly frantic, very wet, and then very warm day. In Aotearoa’s political economy today Read more ...
Tomorrow we have a funeral, and thank you all of you for your very kind words and thoughts — flowers, even.Our friend Michèle messaged: we never get to feel one thing at a time, us grownups, and oh boy is that ever the truth. Tomorrow we have the funeral, and ...
Lynn and I have just returned from a news conference where Hipkins, fresh from visiting a relief centre in Mangere, was repeatedly challenged to justify the extension of subsidies to create more climate emissions when the effects of climate change had just proved so disastrous. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The ...
Lynn and I have just returned from a news conference where Hipkins, fresh from visiting a relief centre in Mangere, was repeatedly challenged to justify the extension of subsidies to create more climate emissions when the effects of climate change had just proved so disastrous. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The ...
A new Prime Minister, a revitalised Cabinet, and possibly revised priorities – but is the political and, importantly, economic landscape much different? Certainly some within the news media were excited by the changes which Chris Hipkins announced yesterday or – before the announcement – by the prospect of changes in ...
Currently the government's strategy for reducing transport emissions hinges on boosting vehicle fuel-efficiency, via the clean car standard and clean car discount, and some improvements to public transport. The former has been hugely successful, and has clearly set us on the right path, but its also not enough, and will ...
Buzz from the Beehive Before he announced his Cabinet yesterday, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced he would be flying to Australia next week to meet that country’s Prime Minister. And before Kieran McAnulty had time to say “Three Waters” after his promotion to the Local Government portfolio, he was dishing ...
The quarterly labour market statistics were released this morning, showing that unemployment has risen slightly to 3.4%. There are now 99,000 people unemployed - 24,000 fewer than when Labour took office. So, I guess the Reserve Bank's plan to throw people out of work to stop wage rises "inflation", and ...
Another night of heavy rain, flooding, damage to homes, and people worried about where the hell all this water is going to go as we enter day twenty two of rain this year.Honestly if the government can’t sell Three Waters on the back of what has happened with storm water ...
* Dr Bryce Edwards writes – Prime Minister Chris Hipkins continues to be the new broom in Government, re-setting his Government away from its problem areas in his Cabinet reshuffle yesterday, and trying to convince voters that Labour is focused on “bread and butter” issues. The ministers responsible for unpopular ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins continues to be the new broom in Government, re-setting his Government away from its problem areas in his Cabinet reshuffle yesterday, and trying to convince voters that Labour is focused on “bread and butter” issues. The ministers responsible for unpopular reforms in water and DHB centralisation ...
Hi,It’s weird to me that in 2023 we still have people falling for multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs for short). There are Netflix documentaries about them, countless articles, and last year we did an Armchaired and Dangerous episode on them.Then you check a ticketing website like EventBrite and see this shit ...
Nanaia Mahuta fell the furthest in the Cabinet reshuffle. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTLDR: PM Chris Hipkins unveiled a Cabinet this afternoon he hopes will show wavering voters that a refreshed Labour Government is focused on ‘bread and butter cost of living’ issues, rather than the unpopular, unwieldy and massively centralising ...
Nanaia Mahuta fell the furthest in the Cabinet reshuffle. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTLDR: PM Chris Hipkins unveiled a Cabinet this afternoon he hopes will show wavering voters that a refreshed Labour Government is focused on ‘bread and butter cost of living’ issues, rather than the unpopular, unwieldy and massively centralising ...
Shortly, the absolute state of Wayne Brown. But before that, something I wrote four years ago for the council’s own media machine. It was a day-in-the-life profile of their many and varied and quite possibly unnoticed vital services. We went all over Auckland in 48 hours for the story, the ...
Completed reads for January Lilith, by George MacDonald The Rime of the Ancient Mariner (poem), by Samuel Taylor Coleridge Christabel (poem), by Samuel Taylor Coleridge The Saga of Ragnar Lodbrok, by Anonymous The Lay of Kraka (poem), by Anonymous 1066 and All That, by W.C. Sellar and R.J. ...
Pity the poor Brits. They just can’t catch a break. After years of reporting of lying Boris Johnson, a change to a less colourful PM in Rishi Sunak has resulted in a smooth media pivot to an end-of-empire narrative. The New York Times, no less, amplifies suggestions that Blighty ...
On that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth.Genesis 6:11-12THE TORRENTIAL DOWNPOURS that dumped a record-breaking amount of rain on Auckland this anniversary weekend will reoccur with ever-increasing frequency. The planet’s atmosphere is ...
Buzz from the Beehive There has been plenty to keep the relevant Ministers busy in flood-stricken Auckland over the past day or two. But New Zealand, last time we looked, extends north of Auckland into Northland and south of the Bombay Hills all the way to the bottom of the ...
Kia ora e te whānau. Today, we mark the anniversary of the signing of Te Tiriti o Waitangi - and our commitment to working in partnership with Māori to deliver better outcomes and tackle the big issues, together. ...
We’ve just announced a massive infrastructure investment to kick-start new housing developments across New Zealand. Through our Infrastructure Acceleration Fund, we’re making sure that critical infrastructure - like pipes, roads and wastewater connections - is in place, so thousands more homes can be built. ...
The Green Party is joining more than 20 community organisations to call for an immediate rent freeze in Tāmaki Makaurau Auckland, after reports of landlords intending to hike rents after flooding. ...
When Chris Hipkins took on the job of Prime Minister, he said bread and butter issues like the cost of living would be the Government’s top priority – and this week, we’ve set out extra support for families and businesses. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to provide direct support to low-income households and to stop subsidising fossil fuels during a climate crisis. ...
The tools exist to help families with surging costs – and as costs continue to rise it is more urgent than ever that we use them, the Green Party says. ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins and Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese today held their first bilateral meeting in Canberra. It was Chris Hipkins’ first overseas visit since he took office, reflecting the close relationship between New Zealand and Australia. “New Zealand has no closer partner than Australia. I was pleased to ...
New Zealand will immediately provide humanitarian support to those affected by the earthquakes in Türkiye and Syria, Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta announced today. “Aotearoa New Zealand is deeply saddened by the loss of life and devastation caused by these earthquakes. Our thoughts are with the families and loved ones affected,” ...
An historic Northland pā site with links to Ngāpuhi chief Hongi Hika is to be handed back to iwi, after collaboration by government, private landowners and local hapū. “It is fitting that the ceremony for the return of the Pākinga Pā site is during Waitangi weekend,” said Regional Development Minister ...
The Government is investing in a suite of initiatives to unlock Māori and Pacific resources, talent and knowledge across the science and research sector, Research, Science and Innovation Minister Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Two new funds – He tipu ka hua and He aka ka toro – set to ...
Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta departs for India tomorrow as she continues to reconnect Aotearoa New Zealand to the world. The visit will begin in New Delhi where the Foreign Minister will meet with the Vice President Hon Jagdeep Dhankar and her Indian Government counterparts, External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar and ...
Over $10 million infrastructure funding to unlock housing in Whangārei The purchase of a 3.279 hectare site in Kerikeri to enable 56 new homes Northland becomes eligible for $100 million scheme for affordable rentals Multiple Northland communities will benefit from multiple Government housing investments, delivering thousands of new homes for ...
The Government is supporting one of Aotearoa New Zealand’s most significant historic sites, the Waitangi Treaty Grounds, as it continues to recover from the impacts of COVID-19. “The Waitangi Treaty Grounds are a taonga that we should protect and look after. This additional support will mean people can continue to ...
A memorial event at a key battle site in the New Zealand land wars is an important event to mark the progress in relations between Māori and the Crown as we head towards Waitangi Day, Minister for Te Arawhiti Kelvin Davis said. The Battle of Ohaeawai in June 1845 saw ...
More Police officers are being deployed to the frontline with the graduation of 54 new constables from the Royal New Zealand Police College today. The graduation ceremony for Recruit Wing 362 at Te Rauparaha Arena in Porirua was the first official event for Stuart Nash since his reappointment as Police ...
The Government is unlocking an additional $700,000 in support for regions that have been badly hit by the recent flooding and storm damage in the upper North Island. “We’re supporting the response and recovery of Auckland, Waikato, Coromandel, Northland, and Bay of Plenty regions, through activating Enhanced Taskforce Green to ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has welcomed the announcement that Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal, Princess Anne, will visit New Zealand this month. “Princess Anne is travelling to Aotearoa at the request of the NZ Army’s Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals, of which she is Colonel in Chief, to ...
A new Government and industry strategy launched today has its sights on growing the value of New Zealand’s horticultural production to $12 billion by 2035, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor said. “Our food and fibre exports are vital to New Zealand’s economic security. We’re focussed on long-term strategies that build on ...
25 cents per litre petrol excise duty cut extended to 30 June 2023 – reducing an average 60 litre tank of petrol by $17.25 Road User Charge discount will be re-introduced and continue through until 30 June Half price public transport fares extended to the end of June 2023 saving ...
The strong economy has attracted more people into the workforce, with a record number of New Zealanders in paid work and wages rising to help with cost of living pressures. “The Government’s economic plan is delivering on more better-paid jobs, growing wages and creating more opportunities for more New Zealanders,” ...
The Government is providing a further $1 million to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Auckland following flooding, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced today. “Cabinet today agreed that, given the severity of the event, a further $1 million contribution be made. Cabinet wishes to be proactive ...
The new Cabinet will be focused on core bread and butter issues like the cost of living, education, health, housing and keeping communities and businesses safe, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has announced. “We need a greater focus on what’s in front of New Zealanders right now. The new Cabinet line ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins will travel to Canberra next week for an in person meeting with Australian Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. “The trans-Tasman relationship is New Zealand’s closest and most important, and it was crucial to me that my first overseas trip as Prime Minister was to Australia,” Chris Hipkins ...
The Government is providing establishment funding of $100,000 to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Auckland following flooding, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced. “We moved quickly to make available this funding to support Aucklanders while the full extent of the damage is being assessed,” Kieran McAnulty ...
As the Mayor of Auckland has announced a state of emergency, the Government, through NEMA, is able to step up support for those affected by flooding in Auckland. “I’d urge people to follow the advice of authorities and check Auckland Emergency Management for the latest information. As always, the Government ...
Ka papā te whatitiri, Hikohiko ana te uira, wāhi rua mai ana rā runga mai o Huruiki maunga Kua hinga te māreikura o te Nota, a Titewhai Harawira Nā reira, e te kahurangi, takoto, e moe Ka mōwai koa a Whakapara, kua uhia te Tai Tokerau e te kapua pōuri ...
Carmel Sepuloni, Minister for Social Development and Employment, has activated Enhanced Taskforce Green (ETFG) in response to flooding and damaged caused by Cyclone Hale in the Tairāwhiti region. Up to $500,000 will be made available to employ job seekers to support the clean-up. We are still investigating whether other parts ...
The 2023 General Election will be held on Saturday 14 October 2023, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced today. “Announcing the election date early in the year provides New Zealanders with certainty and has become the practice of this Government and the previous one, and I believe is best practice,” Jacinda ...
Jacinda Ardern has announced she will step down as Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party. Her resignation will take effect on the appointment of a new Prime Minister. A caucus vote to elect a new Party Leader will occur in 3 days’ time on Sunday the 22nd of ...
By Ian Chute in Suva Fijian Broadcasting Corporation (FBC) board chairman Ajay Bhai Amrit says he has receipts to prove former FBC chief executive officer Riyaz Sayed-Khaiyum received an annual package of $387,790 including benefits and entitlements. He said this worked out to $32,315 a month and that the board ...
PNG Post-Courier PNG Defence Force Commander Major-General Mark Goina says “appropriate force” will be dealt to the gunmen who ambushed and wounded two soldiers in Saugurap, Enga Province, last week. In a statement Major-General Goina said: “A section from the PNGDF contingent deployed in Enga Province were on routine duty, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra As well as her interviews with politicians and experts, Politics with Michelle Grattan includes “Word from The Hill”, where she discusses the news with members of The Conversation’s politics team. In this podcast Michelle and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Reserve Bank Governor Philip Lowe.Lukas Coch/AAP Australia’s cash rate has hit 3.35%, after the Reserve Bank raised interest rates for the ninth time in a row – and signalled ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hannah Della Bosca, PhD Candidate and Research Assistant at Sydney Environment Institute, University of Sydney Shutterstock While the days of overt climate denial are mostly over, there’s a distinct form of denial emerging in its stead. You may have experienced ...
A potential cyclone that could bring more severe wet weather to the upper North Island is now forecast to form a day earlier, Stuff reports. Due to ideal cyclone-formation conditions over the Coral Sea, a low south of the Solomon Islands has a high chance of turning into a cyclone ...
Author I.S. Belle reveals the top five influences on her debut LGBT horror/paranormal YA novel, Zombabe.Zombabe is a LGBT found family horror/paranormal YA about a group of friends putting down an ancient evil inextricably linked to their sleepy town of Bulldeen, Maine. Does all of that bring anything to ...
New Zealand prime minister Chris Hipkins and his Australian counterpart Anthony Albanese are holding a joint press conference in Canberra. Watch live here. ...
The New Zealand government is providing $1.5 million in humanitarian support to those affected by destructive earthquakes in Turkey and Syria last night, foreign minister Nanaia Mahuta has announced. The contribution of $1m to Turkey and $500,000 to Syria will be made via the International Federation of Red Cross and ...
In a state-of-the-nation-style lunchtime speech in Auckland today, the leader of the Act Party has taken aim at both major party leaders. “Throughout this speech,” David Seymour told supporters at the Maritime Museum, “I will do my best to differentiate between the Chrisses, but it may not be easy.” Seymour ...
In Canberra Chris Hipkins has met with Australia’s Anthony Albanese in Canberra, exchanging a few brief words to gathered reporters before heading inside for a closed doors meeting. Hipkins was driven into the courtyard of Parliament House, where he was greeted by Albanese in person. “Welcome prime minister,” said Albanese. A beaming ...
The acclaimed fashion designer has been crowned the ‘undisputed king of the frock’ – but with identical dresses widely available on fast fashion outlets, questions are being asked about his design practices.This story was first published on Stuff. He has been described as the “knight of New Zealand fashion”, his ...
In Canberra New Zealand’s media pack has arrived at Australia’s parliament ahead of this afternoon’s visit from prime minister Chris Hipkins. The PM will be met by his counterpart Anthony Albanese in the courtyard of parliament house, before heading inside for a closed doors meeting. Following the 45 minute meeting, ...
Two new funding initiatives, totalling $22 million, have been approved by Cabinet today to help ensure the cultural sector has the “certainty and support to thrive”, announced Manatū Taonga Ministry for Culture and Heritage. $10 million of Covid-19 recovery funding will support established arts, cultural and diversity festivals, while $12 ...
New Zealand Politics Daily is a collation of the most prominent issues being discussed in New Zealand. It is edited by Dr Bryce Edwards of The Democracy Project. Items of interest and importance todayWAITANGI, CO-GOVERNANCE, THREE WATERS Thomas Cranmer: Waitangi Day and the quiet revolution Glenn McConnell (Stuff): Waitangi in 2023: Plenty ...
ACT leader David Seymour has delivered a speech painting National and Labour as two sides of the same coin, and calling co-governance a "culture war". ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Quigley, Associate Professor of Earthquake Science, The University of Melbourne Mustafa Karali / AP A pair of huge earthquakes have struck in Turkey, leaving more than 3,000 people dead and unknown numbers injured or displaced. The first quake, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kalinda Griffiths, Scientia lecturer, UNSW Sydney Getty/Marianne Purdie Cancer figures provide stark evidence of the gap between the health of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and non-Indigenous people in Australia. The difference is confronting – and it’s increasing over ...
NZ Prime Minister Chris Hipkins and Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese have used a joint media conference to affirm the nations' relationship is that of "family". ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Alcohol bans are being reimposed on Northern Territory Indigenous communities, as the federal and territory governments grapple with intractable problems in Alice Springs and elsewhere in the NT. The situation in Alice Springs and the ...
I was told to avoid gluten. I was told it was all in my head. When 10% of women experience endometriosis, why does it take so long for its classic symptoms to be recognised? It was 2011 when I had my first period. It felt like a very exciting moment ...
In Canberra Chris Hipkins has touched down in Australia’s capital – his first overseas visit since becoming prime minister just three weeks ago. After disembarking from the Airforce Boeing, Hipkins was greeted by his former caucus colleague and current high commissioner to Australia, Dame Annette King. The pair hugged on ...
The rise of TikTok-inspired ‘algospeak’ is making online communication even more of a nightmare, writes SYSCA‘s Lucy Blakiston.This is an excerpt from the Shit You Should Care About daily newsletter – sign up here.Content warning: sexual assault The other day I was chatting with a friend about algospeak – ...
School, finally, is back this week in the nation’s largest city to howls of relief from many parents and (one hopes) some students also. Yet the resumption of normal service shouldn’t obscure a curious inconsistency. The past few weeks have shown ...
MediaRoom column: On the eve of a Cabinet decision on the fate of the proposed public broadcasting merger, questions emerge over the engagement by the TVNZ chief executive of two former National government aides to change the narrative and push TVNZ's view on the Government's plan Within weeks of taking over ...
Olivia Sisson performs a good old-fashioned cost comparison – and it might change the way you buy your veges.The price of food in New Zealand is shocking. So, how to cope? The recommendations are starting to feel like the avo-toast-flat-white trope. Cut those items out and there it is, ...
An early morning fire at an egg-laying farm in Orini, Waikato yesterday has claimed the lives of at least 50,000 hens. The farm is operated by New Zealand’s largest egg producer Zeagold, the country’s biggest egg producer, whose eggs are sold under ...
The Natural and Built Environment Bill and Spatial Planning Bill will make resource management issues worse and should be withdrawn, Federated Farmers has told the Environment Select Committee. "Farmers agree the costly, slow and unpredictable processes ...
New police minister Stuart Nash has met with new health minister Ayesha Verrall to talk about the issue with the aim of preventing ram raids. Nash wants to speed up the scheduled reduction of dairies that can sell cigarettes. Nash made the comments at a police graduation ceremony in Porirua last ...
It’s Tuesday, February 7 and welcome to a special edition of The Spinoff’s live updates. Stewart Sowman-Lund will be on the ground in Canberra today as PM Chris Hipkins meets with his Australian counterpart Anthony Albanese. What you need to know Chris Hipkins will meet Australian PM ...
Politicking by politicians was less overt but whether there was less politics probably depends on your definition of the word and what lay beneath the optics, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. ...
Why is it becoming harder to achieve debt-free status? Money Sweetspot is a new company that uses compassion and incentives to help people pay off their debts. Co-founder Sasha Lockley talks to Simon about using gamification to increase financial literacy, breaking the cycle of poverty, and how she intends to ...
Prime minister Chris Hipkins is heading to Australia today for his first face-to-face meeting with an international leader. He’ll be meeting with Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese during his single-day visit to Canberra. The Spinoff live updates will be on the ground in Australia as the meeting takes place and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By C Raina MacIntyre, Professor of Global Biosecurity, NHMRC Principal Research Fellow, Head, Biosecurity Program, Kirby Institute, UNSW Sydney Pexels/Uriel Mont The question of whether and to what extent face masks work to prevent respiratory infections such as COVID and influenza ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Mackinnon, Professor and Director, Centre for Clean Energy Technologies and Practices, Queensland University of Technology Superconducting cables transmit electicity without lossesShutterstock For most of us, transmitting power is an invisible part of modern life. You flick the switch and the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Munro, Professor, Faculty of Education and Arts, Australian Catholic University Shutterstock Many students are returning to school this year face a renewed focus on grammar. Just before Christmas, the NSW curriculum was overhauled to include the “explicit teaching of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Debra Dudek, Associate professor, School of Arts and Humanities, Edith Cowan University Universal Life is full of surprises – some pleasant and some painful – but there can be no surprises without expectations. We expect the sun to come up ...
News stories have honed in on the fact Wayne Brown and his staff were left off a ‘vital’ email distribution list on the night of the Auckland floods. But internal emails from the mayor’s chief of staff show he was getting regular briefings from officials.Internal council emails obtained by ...
In a reality shaped by climate crisis, how do you think and feel about the changed present – and the changing future – without spiralling into despair?In the midst of a flood there’s not much time to think about the future. But when the water recedes, the reality of ...
06 Feb The news today of the death of 75,000 chickens at an egg farm in Waikato is yet another outrageous and avoidable tragedy. “The fact that so many hens died in this fire in the Waikato is a testament to the systemic neglect and disregard ...
Lawmakers are being urged to bridge the legal and scientific divide over braided rivers. David Williams reports What is a river? More particularly, what is a braided river? An expert group known as The Land The Law Forgot is urging politicians considering the Natural and Built Environment Bill – one ...
Someone left the Swift out in the rain - insurance agents are overloaded with calls about flood-damaged vehicles It’s been a big week for testing the submarining abilities of the family station wagon. Thousands of cars around the upper North Island have been written off following the devastating floods of ...
The first of the air force's new Poseidon aircraft has landed in New Zealand. But is this the sort of workhorse the military needs? Our old heroes of the Air Force, the P-3 Orions, have retired after 56 years of service - and the first of the flash new Poseidon ...
Chris Hipkins’ first overseas trip as Prime Minister comes on relatively friendly territory. But while there have been marked improvements in the trans-Tasman relationship since a change in Canberra, there is still plenty to discuss, as Sam Sachdeva writes In many ways, it is fitting Chris Hipkins should make Australia the ...
Fiordland National Park is the crowning jewel of our national parks and arguably our greatest tourist magnet. But conservationists warn that marine life has been put at risk because the park’s waters are unprotected. Heidi Bendikson’s investigation shows they are right. Tourists on the 'M.V Sinbad' clamber to the bow to ...
As Auckland copes with unprecedented flooding, Mairi Jay points to lessons from extreme weather events in British Columbia that could be vitally important for policy-makers and administrators here “Expect extreme weather events” the climate scientists tell us. But sometimes the extreme is beyond our imagining. On Thursday January 26, New Zealand’s Met Service predicted ...
UK and US deals for NZ novels Three of the best New Zealand novels of recent years are about to be published in the UK and the US. All three books – She's a Killer by Kirsten McDougall, Greta and Valdin by Rebecca K Reilly, and The New Animals ...
Confidence from US Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell kept markets buoyant. But mortgage payments and job losses could dampen consumer spending in NZ ...
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RNZ News New Zealand Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has described today’s Waitangi Day dawn service as moving and says he welcomes the shift away from a focus on politics. Hundreds of people gathered before dawn to commemorate 183 years since Te Tiriti o Waitangi was signed. Hipkins said the national ...
By Hilaire Bule, RNZ Pacific Vanuatu correspondent in Port Vila Vanuatu’s prime minister has stressed any future employment within the Melanesian Spearhead Group (MSG) Secretariat must be from MSG member countries. Prime Minister Ishmael Kalsakau, who is also chair of the MSG Secretariat, made the statement following the recruitment of ...
SPECIAL REPORT:By Yamin Kogoya On Friday 10 February 2023, it will be one month since the Papua Governor Lukas Enembe was “kidnapped” at a local restaurant during his lunch hour by the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) and security forces. The crisis began in September 2022, when Governor Enembe was ...
By Kālino Lātū, editor of Kaniva News Dr Sitiveni Halapua, former deputy leader of Tonga’s Democratic Movement, has died aged 74. Born on February 13, 1949, he was a respected academic, a pioneer of Tonga’s democratic reforms and pioneer of a conflict resolution system based on traditional practices. Halapua earned ...
COMMENTARY:By Richard Naidu in Suva Five weeks on from Christmas Eve, I think most of us are still a bit stunned at what has happened in Fiji. A new government came to power in dramatic circumstances. It took not one but two Sodelpa management board meetings to change it, ...
By Red Tsounga Another house done, and onto the next . . . Volunteers working in Mount Roskill community over the past few days helping those suffering from Auckland’s flash flood devastation have done us proud. Tremendous work by everybody. Here are some random photos of our volunteer teams on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Mick Tsikas/AAP Senator Lidia Thorpe announced on Monday that she would be leaving the Greens. Thorpe had split with the ...
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Today, at a Waitangi ki Waititi concert hosted by Te Whānau o Waipareira at Hoani Waititi Marae, West Auckland; Takutai Moana Natasha Kemp was officially announced as Te Pāti Māori Candidate for Tāmaki Makaurau for the 2023 Election. Hailing ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Daniel Pockett/AAP Victorian Indigenous Senator Lidia Thorpe has defected from the Greens to sit on the crossbench, declaring she wants to fully represent the “Blak Sovereign Movement” in parliament. The announcement by ...
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I am happily surprised that not enough UK Labour MPs crossed the floor against the Brexit amendment to withhold approval.
The Remain war may be lost, but there's still honour in the fight.
https://www.theguardian.com/international
The Remain War Ad? You mean the campaign that has been waged mostly by the cultural and financial elites of the capital against the ordinary people of the UK who had the temerity to imagine a different future for themselves?
A different future brought to them by the likes of Nigel Farage and Boorish Johnson?
Brought to them by whomever they want I guess, it’s their choice after all.
Given the vast amount of bullshit and outright lies leading up to the referendum, and that the referendum was between a vague idea that anyone could project their fantasies onto versus a concrete reality, was it really their choice? Or is the better path forward a second referendum after the definite deal is nailed down, so it becomes a genuine fair choice between two definite realities?
"Given the vast amount of bullshit and outright lies leading up to the referendum, "
The Remain scare lies were proven to be false within days of the result. And continue to do so. The economy didnt crash.
The UK will save billions from the total amounts going to the EU , not just the EU budget amount but there are other billions such as the customs duties and levies(£ 2.6 bill) plus nett EU VAT (£3.0 bill) adjustment amounts
There were no lies and bullshit coming the leave side? They presented a true, honest and complete picture of what leaving would actually entail? Really?
Politics, in case you hadn’t noticed is generally a ‘vast amount of bullshit and outright lies’ and the referendum was politics so go figure.
As for a second referendum, however nicely you dress the idea up, it is nothing more than remainer desperation to overturn the democratic will of UK voters. Anyone who is a democrat and believes in the rule of law should resist the idea completely.
In all the democracies I'm eligible to participate in, decisions and results are subject to re-evaluation after a period somewhere between 2 and 6 years. Nothing is locked in forever. After circumstances have significantly changed, there is nothing whatsoever undemocratic about putting the revised question to the vote.
In western democracies decisions and results aren’t subject to re-evaluation after a period of time. Rather it’s the personnel appointed to make those decisions that are required to re-affirm their continued fitness by the voting populace to make those decisions. They are not the same thing.
You want to explain what's undemocratic about holding a new vote after circumstances have significantly changed relative to a previous vote?
No I don’t particularly. Mostly cos there ain’t gonna be a new vote and circumstances haven’t actually changed significantly enough to justify one. Unless, of course, you’re an embittered remainer casting about for any chance to rewrite history.
Y'know, I really don't have an interest in whether Brexit or remain happens. I've got no roots in the UK or the EU, and it's unlikely I'll ever visit either again in my life.
But I am interested in a people's right to self-determination. From that perspective, it really looks to me like the original referendum was an exercise in how not to make a substantial decision.
Putting up a vague nebulous concept that everyone and their dog can project their fantasies onto up against a current reality simply showed the status quo didn't have majority support. That's a very different question to whether there's majority support for a hard Brexit over status quo, or majority support for the current Brexit deal.
Looks to me like those opposed to a second referendum are embittered leavers who think any cost is worth it. Since they now have the result they want, they want to deny any possibility of reconsidering to those that may have changed their minds in the interim based on new knowledge.
You have just described how messy democracy really is …. and it all mirrors the travails of the Kaipara District Council and its Mangawhai sewerage scheme… or Napiers new Swimming pool or any other local council in the country.
Greece had a referendum on the harsh EU bailout scheme, it lost 61% to 38%, but the government had it anyway.
Norway had TWO referendums about joining the EU, both lost but Norway is effectively an EU member anyway, as its covered by Diktats from Brusells
@Duke – yeah, democracy is full of anti-democratic outcomes. But that's not a reason to stop advocating for outcomes that are more democratic.
Greater London voted 60% to remain.
Yeah and it still wasn’t enough to overcome the turnout for Leave in the rest of England and Wales. It needed to be about 80%.
But like the 62% who voted remain in Scotland, they're not all "cultural and financial elites"
Their future is clear:
– Northern Ireland effectively integrates into Ireland
– Scotland leaves
– UK becomes England meaning London with the rest sucked dry.
Just like New Zealand would be without CER.
CER is not analogous with EU membership. In stark contrast with the UK NZ still retains control over affairs that the UK has had to cede control of to Brussels. A better comparison would be to liken UK membership of the EU to what our situation would be if we had taken up Australia’s (still standing) offer to join their Federation. And I’m sure you’ll agree there’s a healthy majority of opinion against Federation in this country.
Indyref 2 is by no means a certainty either. There doesn’t appear to be a groundswell of support for it, and, like the first one I suspect the whole enterprise is likely to founder on the inhospitable shore of monetary policy. Scots are not showing any sign of warming to the idea of giving up Sterling in favour of the Euro.
The Northern Ireland situation is an historical anomaly, but if its bad for UK to leave the EU its even worse for Scotland to leave UK.
The SNP once campaigned to leave the EU,
The UK still has plenty of national sovereignty within the EU. I know you know that. CER is the only thing that kept us afloat in the 1980s, and has functionally integrated us as countries. It's a close enough analogy for NZ.
The UK are about to find out that life on the outside is very cold. There's no changing their course now – they are going even with the new extension.
When UK leaves the customs union and single market, then the EU will start carrying out checks on British goods. Expect delays at Dover and Rottterdam and most other ports, traffic bottlenecks, supply route disruption – even with this amount of lead time.
In time the 28% of their food they get from the EU will settle down, as will the supply of medicines. In time.
There will be a sharp fall on the Pound no matter what. After that comes plenty of foreign takeover activity because it's all cheap.
A fair number of UK farms will be wiped out when the EU subsidies stop. So expect accelerated takeovers there.
Animal product exports into the EU restricted or prohibited.
No more EU research and development funding.
Then of course the travel inconveniences: EU pet passport no longer valid, new driving permit, no access to EU healthcare, mobile devices get charged on global roaming rates.
Thankfully the withdrawal agreement gives British cities living in the EU the same rights they have now.
But for the UK, massive loss of immigration. Probable decrease of business travel and tourism.
A big jump down in the economy overall.
A transition period to 31 December next year.
A degraded democracy. 2020 is the year the UK Labour Party has to figure out a way to survive. The Conservatives will just keep pushing the patriotic button and smash them.
Scotland leaves within three years.
A diminished and damaged UK.
It'll take a while to balance out whether the UK fee to the EU was worth it.
But the UK won't recover for years if at all.
With Brexit everyone loses, but the UK loses the most.
https://www.piie.com/publications/working-papers/brexit-everyone-loses-britain-loses-most
Re running the old discredited Remain scare tactics agains ?
"George Osborne released a Treasury report on the long-term economic impact of leaving the EU. The headline message from this report was that leaving the EU would cost each household an average of £4,300 each year. Using economic modelling, ….."
Treasury here cant model next years economy and the UK numbers mostly came from modelling a drop in migration to the UK.. just as we could boost the economy , and did, by boosting migration well above usual levels . Since when is that free money that doesnt cost as well for growing infrastructure and social dislocation.
Brexit-With-Deal will have a less negative economic impact than a No Deal scenario. Both will be negative.
You are welcome to find a UK or EU or even OECD economist who says Brexit will have a positive economic impact on the UK.
Go right ahead.
"welcome to find a UK or EU or even OECD economist who says Brexit will have a positive economic impact on the UK. "
I just showed that 'economic modelling' is mostly voodoo science.
As the UK kept their pound , perhaps you would like to ask Greece how staying in the EU with the euro has worked for them.
leaving the EU fisheries alone – although it will take up to 5 years- will be a boost for Britain especially the northern ports
The Irish were stiffed by the EU as well over the bank bailouts , they were mislead in thinking the EU would cover the government saving of the banks . They didnt , Ireland had to 'pay it all back' meanwhile Iceland just said Goodbye to its banks and let them sink.
You did nothing of the kind. You didn't even bother to cite a European or UK forecast example. Just typical laziness on your part.
Euro membership is different to EU membership. But I'm sure you could see that already.
Iceland is an irrelevancy abut the size of Christchurch.
Fishing is yet another smelly pro-Brexit lie. Fishing is .12% of the UK economy. Prepare for "origin" documents for each boat and each catch. Who knows if they will be able to sell their shellfish into the EU at all?
Ireland had the freedom – while within the EU – to form its own corporate tax settings and has completely re-set its economy. It's booming.
"You are welcome to find a UK or EU or even OECD economist who says Brexit will have a positive economic impact on the UK."
I don't anyone is saying that Brexit will have a "positive economic impact" on the UK, at least in the short term term; however, I think the negatives are being overstated deliberately for political purposes, and the benefits of remaining overstated.
Yanis Varoufakis, who at the time of the referendum campaigned on behalf of the Remain option, was arguing that the UK should remain in the EU and reform it from within. Fat chance of that though, so it's probably better she gets out.
Those who promoted the benefits of leaving have been shown to be liars, and they are the ones in power continuing to both tell and implement those lies.
Remember in 2012 when the London Olympics were opened? The UK proposed itself to the world as a place of inclusiveness, global cooperation, expansiveness, confidence, renewed tradition, and a great sense of fun?
Gone.
Since the referendum, immigration into the UK has crashed, the Pound has nosedived, and the government is proposing a minimum immigrant entry salary into the UK of 36,000 Pounds which is great if you're a banker but little else.
Thankfully for the UK the economy is overall so strong that this is as good a time as any to Brexit.
I was not in London in 2012 so I'm not likely to remember it. However, I think that what has been lost since then was probably lost long before the referendum. The GFC in 2008 was probably a more important influence.
Better they get out now before EU policies weaken Britain further.
Most of the spin in the forecasts is done with a simple ruse. The leave forecasts bias towards scenarios where the UK enters a mild recession on leaving and the government doesn't react. This causes a deep recession. The model has the same outcome of course when looking at similar scenarios with the UK in the EU.
We know this as later bank of england forecasts didn't match up and they admitted treasury put pressure on them to fiddle the earlier ones (which they had).
And yet it’s the areas where sovereignty has had to be ceded to Brussels that have rankled the most over the years and been the main drivers of the referendum result.
CER is not the same as EU membership, it’s a trade and freedom of movement deal between NZ and Australia. And good on us for getting it when we did. Given the state of politics in Australia nowadays we would never be able to achieve anything like it today. Since we got it however, we’ve got plenty of trade deals with other countries too. Ironically Britain would love a CER type deal with Europe and the freedom to strike other deals across the globe but they can’t while they stay in Europe.
As for the idea that Britain is going to feel the cold shoulder of economic ruin outside of the bloc. This may well come to pass but guess what, history is littered with examples of nation-states making decisions that run counter to their economic prospects, usually because there are other, higher interests at stake. Times made indeed be tough in Blighty, probably for quite some time. It seems though that enough people there have decided the risk is worthwhile.
It's not going to be a complete and utter disaster. It will have negative effects.
The 52% who voted for it could not calculate the risks of the proposal, and they will realize that history is being written against them.
Greenland withdrew from EU
Singapore withdrew from Federation of Malaysia
Czechs and Slovaks split up
The EU benefits mainly countries with large agricultural sector or they are new entries which get EU giveways. Plus large manufacturing companies can send their assembly and production plants to low wage areas- even so a car plant in Slovakia will have contract only workers shipped in from Romania.
Is Britains Cornwall and Devon really an underprivileged area that needs EU regional assistance.
Greenland is the population of Nelson, so no one gave a damn. It's a client state of Denmark and the US military, beset by suicide and depression and ecological ruin.
Singapore isn't in the EU, nor Malaysia. You can run an argument about size optimization for states and the role of Lee Kuan Yew over thirty years, versus Malay integration, if you like.
Cornwall and Devon are dominated by massive private estates, some of them royal. They don't benefit from EU projects. Some may get subsidies as you say, but you can find out what the benefits are for each location here: https://www.myeu.uk
We'll only really figure out the benefits of the EU once the UK leaves. The EU has done a spectacularly poor job of either reforming internally or selling its positives.
I watched quite a bit of the Commons last night and the more I see Boris Johnston, the more he comes across to me as a patronising, boorish, lying bastard who should be kept well away from the levers of power.
Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand speaks clearly, cogently and you get the impression he is the one telling the truth.
I cannot understand why the British media in particular try to portray Corbyn as the boorish, lying one and Johnston as the people's saviour when anyone with half a brain can see for themselves it's the other way round.
A referenced list of Johnston's sexism, racism, homophobia, lies, gaffes, scandals and assorted fuckwittery.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XzAujyzN9JxpUl9rN7EIIX0AlgaXL8rE/view
Golly – that is a real Blip's list. (Or can I say golly now?)
He is one of the great AotW. A rambunctious spieler who speaks loud and confidently and attracts the enthusiasm of the mindless but aspirational (a febrile and easily ignited mass). I have seen a group excited by the declamations of someone voluble appoint that person as leader on the spot, to their discomfort.
As for ScottGN raising the narrow majority of people fed blatant lies, and voting for change with the smallest majority to holy writ, one can only wonder at the simple-minded mantra of theory being spouted in the face of practical and informed reason. This also from Bryan Gould.
The people in UK were unaware that their vote of dissatisfaction was likely to be used to break up the basics of their society, so they did not understand the need to apply themselves to attending workshops on the political ramifications and learn all the consequences, known and possible. Can I just have my understanding confirmed by one of the wise here: –
1 Was the referendum a binding one?
2 Or was it considered by the populace more as an expression of feeling, a snapshot of that point in time, more like an important poll?
Was the referendum a binding one or not? So many people making statements of what should be done and does anyone know this important point? I want one of the wise people who come here with ideas about how right Brexit is and listen to the voice of the people blah blah. Is everyone, we and the UK voters, informed about the facts of this matter.?
No, it wasnt binding in the sense you mean, but legislation since passed committed the UK to leave. That would have to be repealed to stop Brexit.
You always cloud the issue dou. Thank you, if you are right about that information – not binding. I wanted to establish the point, not have your brownwash over it afterwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
I don’t guarantee there is no ‘brownwashing’ with Wikipedia 😉
Just as NZs first MMP referendum wasnt legally binding either.
The 2nd vote wasnt part of the 'process' or mentioned during the first vote
The 2nd vote was indroduced by Bolgers government to kill off MPP, along with the massive Shirtcliffe led campaign against MMP who predicted – yes just like the Brexit one- that old chesnut economic ruin
Always good to provide a link, even if it is to Wikipedia, to give comments a certain level of validity, if you know what I mean; it sometimes helps to make it less personal. Nowadays, we don’t just take people’s word for it because we can’t, sadly.
DoU Brexit was what we were talking about. You diverted the thread to NZ. Can't you keep to the point when you find something elsewhere to scotch your argument. I wasn't talking round the subject of referendums – it was this UK one, and how the law was drawn up. Badly I think. But you go off-piste and hey presto you made a point which has little relevance.
Thanks Incognito – I did want to hear something pretty factual, not just Dous version or opinion.
So it was cloudy then, as to whether it would go ahead. If a local Council came up with that sort of policy machinery that had great loopholes in it, voters, ratepayers, taxpayers, small business etc would have been up in arms about it. When it is an august body that sits on green leather? seats, they shouldn't get a free pass out of jail.
Them and their policy writers and those whose job it is to keep legislation fit for purpose should get a boot in the backside (no important vote like that should pass on a simple majority – 75-80% rather.) Give them the Bad Sir Brian Botany treatment. A delightful rhyming piece:
Sir Brian went a journey and he found a lot of duckweed.
They pulled him out and dried him and they blipped him on the head.
They took him by the breeches
And they hurled him into ditches
And they pushed him under waterfalls and this is what they said:…
http://www.pointlesspoems.20m.com/custom2.html
To save the ship (Britannia) from the rocks they steered it into a storm and now they’ve lost all bearings. The Officers say “trust us, we know what we’re doing as we were borne to steer this ship so stay calm and carry on”. The deckhands and crew below deck are in for a rough sailing while the Officers dine in their quarters. As it has always been and always will be.
I don't think the referendum was binding, but nor do I think it was just an "expression of feeling". I'm pretty sure the people who voted to leave believed that that the UK would leave if enough people voted the same way. Or that the UK would walk away from the EU if the opposite turned out to be the case.
Edit
mikesh You are rather loose with your political procedures, a bit easy peasy. For instance what do you consider enough people voting would look like. The whole question about national matters of great world importance, and to those of the country that have their lives affected, is should changes be on a simple majority it 50.5 or 51% to 49%. Those few points at the centre become crucial – so easy to bribe a sizable group to vote for you in ways that are just outside any controlling law. I think you are too trusting to have a vote.
I say 70-80% should be required for a majority win on matters of great importance as this is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority#United_Kingdom
"I say 70-80% should be required for a majority win on matters of great importance as this is."
I thought we were talking about what people believed might be the outcome from their voting rather than the mechanics of the voting system itself.
I looked up Golly on the web which is never wrong.
Apparently it was first used in 1775 and is a euphemism for god….so yes you can use it.
Oh thanks BG. I get so nervous these days. There is a sort of etiquette book on-line called the Urban Dictionary which I consult sometimes but I tend to go into a faint sometimes after reading it.
I have a 100 year old book of etiquette and may be consulted between the hours of 10.00 and 11.00am on Sundays on any matters of great delicacy on which people of a sensitive and gentle disposition wish to receive the old-fashioned advice that is such an emollient in social matters.
Boris may well be the biggest arsehole who ever lived Anne but that’s irrelevant. Westminster has a job to do, having asked the people of the UK to make a choice, they should get on with implementation of the decision they were given.
Having asked 'some' of the people three and a half years ago would be more accurate.
why i point this out?
all of those that were a day short of 18 at the time then were not asked, they were told to fuck off, shut up, sit down and live with it.
all of those that were a day short of death got to vote even tho it would never affect them.
So no, The People of the UK were not asked, only some were.
Pleeeese….its that supposed to be a reasoned arguement ?
No matter what age you chose, 17, 18,19 etc there will be some who are a day short!
The whole point of democracy is made by the aphorism about the wisdom of crowds.
yes, it should be.
I would like to point out that anyone who was a day/a week or a month short of 18 did not vote. That is an aweful lot of people who did not get the right to decide their future, yet who is considered old enough to work, pay taxes and such.
I personally think that indeed the voting age for referendums that impact the life of everyone to that extend should have been at least 15 – which is also the age one is considered old enough to work fulltime and pay taxes.
In the same i would support a cut of age for people say over 75. Why? They will most likely not be affected by anything much.
Democracy you say? Ha, democracy depends on the sanity of the populace, and frankly people believing they can go back to the 1850's when everyone knew their place, especially the foreigners, the brown ones, the women ones, the children ones etc etc etc are not what i would consider 'sane'.
And we, as much as poeple else where we don't have a democracy, we have a selection of the most unsuited people – generally by way of birth, access to money and connections – and we get to choose every few years the least unpalatble option. Yei! Democracy!
Most young people don't vote anyway. They prefer to shop and look at their phones all day.
Democracy is kept alive by people over 40.
yeah, that is it.
all their own fault for not voting – even when they are not allowed to vote.
and no democracy is not kept alive by people over 40 , property rights are, low taxes are, some benefits for some are but democracy?
i’ll give you a point for funniest comment of the day.
"all their own fault for not voting – even when they are not allowed to vote."
The best nonsense comment of the week.
You have no real idea of what 16-18 yrs think and want, they arent social activists from well off families like you probably think.
Remember NZs Sue Bradford , a young activist- daughter of a professor of cell biology
The real problem is the 'teenage brain', social media campaigns financed by business and conservative political groups will have a field day with 'teenage brains'.
Money will win that game rather than ideas
For example Plenty of social tricks in music to get young woman to like it – digital high pitched voices etc.
We trusted them when we lowered the drinking age from 21 to 18.
It was a total disaster.
Property ownership is not a qualification of voting.
The week before the local government elections, hundreds of thousands of young people marched seeking political change. Next week, with voting papers sent out, worst voting turnout in a century.
So far there's no evidence they'd use it if they even got it.
To young people this makes sense, I reckon, but to you it clearly doesn’t. Ergo, you’re not a young person.
Ergo they have no need for the vote then.
Turnout was woefully low. Ergo, voters have no need for the vote then. At least young people get off their butts for and about stuff that matters to them, even if it might be fleetingly. Over time, they will become as apathetic as the rest of the electorate and stop acting for the greater good and opt for fretting about the QV of their house(s) instead.
Compulsory voting would solve your problems of 'turnout' The results wont change that much , as we can see from Australia
Not much democracy in mass low skill immigration – our self-styled "masters" imposed that massive clusterfuck on us without asking – they knew perfectly well what the response would be. Not much democracy in rubber stamping offshore land sales when a substantial majority oppose it absolutely, or signing up for a TPP deal with investor state provisions. Democracy is such an implicit virtue even North Korea pretends to it – but try to access your Labour electorate MP about slave fishing and they'll gaslight you from asshole to breakfast – they love slave fishing, and hate NZ workers with a passion. Expect them to do their job however, and you will be disappointed. For decades, the despicable pieces of crap.
Even the Minister of Finance says he can control only 5% of the governments budget.
Do you think any MP has any say over slave fishing – why do you concern yourself so much that the rebuffs matter.
Did you not have a happy childhood?
Everybody has issues that strike close to the bone.
It was my career. Government collaborated with illegal practice and basically fucked my life. We expect illegality from Gnats, they are corrupt subhuman scum who, at best, belong in prison. But Labour pretended, and still pretend to progressive values. Slavery is not consistent with that pretention.
The fisheries have failed to develop. They are not measurably more sustainable. They have failed in their treaty obligations, and their international labour standards responsibilities.
We ordinary mortals suffer life-ruining consequences if we fall short of our responsibilities. As democratic citizens we get the government we choose to accept. I do not accept Labour's toleration of slave fishing – they need to clean up their act. I'd like a few personal apologies too, from all the worthless lying stooges I've raised it with, who by collaborating, have chosen to be accomplices after the fact.
Sure . At least that makes sense. I shouldnt have been so dismissive. I found my Mps office very helpful on a small matter.
There are a few aphorisms doing the rounds such as the invisible hand and free market wisdom and its rational consumers. These are statements or constructs rather about us. I think it’s high time we wise up.
Perhaps parents should also cast a vote on behalf of their infant children, who will also be affected in the future lives by the decision. Such infants do not have time to visit the polling booths themselves in between breast feeding episodes and sleeping.
Doable, if both parents take turns at breastfeeding and looking after the sleeping defenceless infants. Assuming both parents are together in the same household otherwise a babysitter needs to be called in.
For what it’s worth I support lowering the voting age to 16 generally. And doing so would have almost certainly delivered a different result in the referendum.
The vote was conducted under the electoral rules in place at the time though and to suggest that it is somehow invalid because of that is nonsense.
One could suggest the result is invalid because of the number of campaign rules broken and outright lies told by the leavers.
Then I suppose one could ask the courts to rule on assertions of electoral malpractice? Be my guest…
Fake news, lies, misrepresentations etc have always been a part of political campaigns. I think it's safe to suggest that in recent years the bar has become very low. I don't think any rational person would argue that this is good for democracy. 'A lie is halfway around the world before Truth has it's boots on.
Where is this trend going to take us? I'm not sure there is a solution to this in law. It will have to come from the voters, but so long as there is political benefit to be gained by trickery and deception you won't see any progress.
The UK electoral laws regulatory found both sides of the Brexit debate referendum committed technical breaches of the law.
As they do to this day, MPs , parliamentary parties local electorates breach the disclosure laws
The Guardian only highlights the 'failures' from one side only , doesnt mean there werent many others
eg
Green Party (Bristol accounting unit)
Late delivery of 2017 annual accounts.
Offence. £200 (fixed monetary penalty). Paid 3 October 2019.
We Are Europe (permitted participant in the EU Referendum)
Failure to submit a return containing a statement of all payments made in respect of referendum expenses.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-enforcement-work/investigations
Fanciful dreams always give the result you want , thats the reason for using them.
Should we only have those over 50 vote on retirement and super questions 'because its their future'…thats just as silly as your talk about 16 yr voting
To an extend yes.
You still try very hard to not understand what i have said.
I am all for people who don't receive the super – aka our overloard in parliament – to not vote ever on restriction super or raising the retirment age.
Yeah, i would not mind a bit of exclusion for people who are not affected by the choice to make to make these choices for others.
But the vote of Brexit was 3.5 years ago, and the only ones screwed over royally in this case are those that are now in their twenties and they still have the same incompetend and un – affected lords fucking up their lives with no recourse.
How democratic is that?
The House of Lords is strongly pro Remain…. what do you think that tells you about the age and social class who have benefited most from the EU and continue to so.
That's a fair point. Maybe some of them realise you can shear more wool from a healthy flock than a sickly one.
A UBI would not be of much benefit to me since I am already receiving National Super. However I would still vote for it on the grounds that it would be good for the country.
nowhere di i say it is 'invalid'
i just took umbrage at the option that ' the people' of the UK got a say.
Only those of voting age got a say, everyone else got shafted. Just in case you have a hard time understanding what i said.
Look up the word referendum and find out what it says instead of your Trump like absurd claims.
Ask the Swiss about a center piece of their political system…yes referendums.
17 million voted leave and 16 million voted remain. Hardly conclusive.
Cameron should have insisted on a super-majority for such a momentous change-55% or 60%.
MMP here only won by 54 to 46. Cameron's mistake was not making it a two-step process like changing to MMP here.
edit: and in 2011 it was ‘only’ 58% in favour of retaining MMP.
Accepted-that would have been a good option.
Apples with oranges. MMP was still an internal voting system.
Brexit breaks down carefully crafted measures and agreements with other nations using diplomacy and collaborative approaches, in some countries after nasty armed encounters. The Irish are a close example, have found the system okay and useful for general value. The free interflow to and from Europe which breaks down dislikes and disdain with familiarity from one country to another, modernises cultural backwaters, and stopped the UK from being insular in cultural attitudes, is being thrown out petulantly.
The hatred of EU bureaucracy isn't because it is worse than that of the UK itself. And the EU backs modern safeguards for human rights and respect that the USA is unable to match, being fuller of BS than the EU. People who have settled outside the UK are being forced to repatriate as their mutually agreed social benefits will come to an end.
It is a repeat of what Australia is doing to NZ, gradually. And seems connected with what the USA is doing as it flexes its flabby muscles, preparing to introduce automaton forces. If the USA continues in its reckless, hapless way and the UK binds into its systems, it is possible that the west will be involved in war again.
The two step process for MMP here was designed to kill the MMP project.
The second ballot was not in the original proposal at all, which had 2 questions
1) change – 85% Yes
2) choice of 4 types of ballot – MMP 70% for that option
The second MMP referendum had the usual scaremongers out , like Brexit they claimed economic ruin !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_reform_in_New_Zealand
Once we had a second ballot in NZ for Mps who didnt get 50% of the vote first time round 1908 -1913
@Duke so the first MMP referendum (non-binding) had turnout of 55%, of whom 85% (1.2M) wanted change. Then the second referendum (binding) had turnout of 83%, of whom 54% wanted change.
I wasn't in the country then, so I've got no idea of the general mood of the country then (except for the timeless general disgust at politicians).
But it seems to me when presented with a non-binding question for yet-to-be-defined change (1st MMP and Brexit), there's a whole lot of meh going around, with the greatest motivation among those wanting to send a middle finger message to pollies. But for the 2nd MMP referendum, there may have been a sense of "shee-it, this is really happening" which turned a lot of the previous mehs into voters.
In terms of raw numbers, the first MMP referendum had 1031k votes for change (and the MMP option got 791k), 186k for status quo. The second referendum got 1033k votes for change, 885k for status quo. So fuck all difference in how many people wanted change, but a vast increase in the turnout for status quo.
It's not hard to imagine a similar thing happening if Brexit get a second referendum.
Discussion got derailed after this – MMP and Brexit and whether the voting was similar is not an equivalency.
Different political planks. Have fallen off the Brexit, national fortunes and world history one.
Can't agree ScottGN. The outcome of the referendum was narrow. Not much in it at all. Many who voted Leave were later to recant and say they didn't understand what Leave meant and if there were another referendum they would vote Remain. That's not made up. It was widely reported in the British Press.
And it is highly relevant having an arsehole as a leader. They can do so much damage in the course of their term in office. Look at Trump. A disaster in every sense of the word.
We had one of our own once who, admittedly, seems tame in comparison to Trump. I refer to Muldoon.
Leave meant leave. A simple idea at its heart. What you really mean was didnt understand 'all consequences' Even now can ordinary people understand the Irish backstop and the Irish sea border concepts.
Do the people who voted for 'Scottish independence' had any real idea of the consequences .
From what I understood about Scotlands independence vote was some thought the EU would pay for Scotland budget top up they get from Westminister now.
Look at NZs MMP many people even now dont know how it really works, especially if you lose electorate seats the gain is made in list seats. A common mistake made by media people who should know better
Whatever the brexit outcome, I reckon it's done the Scottish independence movement no end of good.
Brexit's a complete clusterfuck in conception, election, and implementation. I'm glad I'm on the other side of the planet.
"it's done the Scottish independence movement no end of good."
So leaving the EU is bad , but leaving the UK is good. Only twisted logic could suggest that.
Scotland will have to have the Euro, a hard border with England and no more Westminster subsidies. Good luck with thinking the EU will pay the core government operating expenses
I didn't say independence was good, I said the last few years have done the independence cause no end of good.
Because 62% of Scots voted against brexit, and they're seeing it inflicted upon them in the most stupid manner imaginable.
Now maybe the money transfers go more one way than the other. The hard border isn't as much of an issue for Scotland as it is for Northern Ireland. But Scotland could well be better off in the EU and outside Britain than the other way around.
Outside of a few outliers , no opinion poll in Scotland has shown a lead for Independence
Why would you 'suppose' that
I seem to recall that normally you are much better at reading comprehension. My comments were in relation to the brexit bullshit helping the independence cause, not that the independence cause was an outright majority.
And your link demonstrates exactly that: for most of 2019 independence seems to have been gaining support. Polls being polls, of course.
dou Excuses for rigid authoritarianism. The folk won't bother so don't set it out in plain terms so they can understand. In a pros and cons way – which could be done with the general aims easily.
If you believe it's not worth the bother because people won't read it or understand it, you are reflecting the worst aspects of the Westminster system that cater to class-oriented mendacity.
What you really mean was didnt understand 'all consequences'
Indeed it was. There are lots of people who will never understand electoral systems – or any other system – because they haven't the marbles and it would seem to include more than a few of our media.
I accidently bought a HoS today thinking it was the SST (yep wasn't wearing my glasses 🙁 ) and read HDPA's latest article. Talk about a diatribe of misquotes, misinterpretations, misunderstandings and mischievous inaccuracies.
David Slack would have been a far more enjoyable read. 🙁 🙁
No, I ain't going to link to it.
You would have copped an instant ban 😉
"Many who voted Leave were later to recant and say they didn't understand what Leave meant and if there were another referendum they would vote Remain. That's not made up. It was widely reported in the British Press."
I heard of one person who said that. Was there also another?
According to the British media not long after the result came through, there were lots of them. But you'll have to take my word for it because I'm not going to hunt for them. Got better things to do with my time.
You can have a go.
Nah. It would probably be like looking for a needle in a haystack (if you'll excuse the rather hackneyed simile).
Boris may well be the biggest arsehole who ever lived Anne but that’s irrelevant.
What does an actor need a conscience for anyhow? – Jiminy Cricket
Awesome game last night well done the ABs.
Like mercury over rusted steel.
England had some luck with the two intercepts.
Since when are intercepts lucky?
Always.
Fantastic performance last night.
I had a friend come and watch and be bought a mate.
We were talking about team culture and the article on Stuff about all the players unload the baggage from the bus. He reckons the ABs always clean up the changing room after a test.
It reiterates the message 'Go fast, go alone. Go far, go together'.
She's got it all sorted if you are feeling confused. Sounds a bit like today's Mother Beeton's book on etiquette of old.
11.30 Kitty Flanagan's 488 Rules For Life Radionz today
The very witty Kitty Flanagan has helpfully put together a comprehensive guide to modern behaviour, and help everyone around you be a bit less irritating, with her new book, 488 Rules For Life: The Thankless Art of Being Correct.
She covers the important things: work microwave etiquette involving last night's fish curry, walking and texting, wearing far too much perfume on public transport, or what to do with the last of the toilet paper.
Oh, and whether middle-aged men should have ponytails. (Spoiler alert… They shouldn't.) It began as a bit of a joke on Kitty's popular segment on ABC TV's The Weekly, and her publishers reckon the resulting book has the power to change society.
Russiagate conspiracy nutter, 2016 loser and unashamed war monger Hillary Clinton drags US politics down into the gutter yet again…
Hillary Clinton suggests Russians are 'grooming' Tulsi Gabbard for third-party run
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/18/politics/hillary-clinton-tulsi-gabbard/index.html
Gabbard had a pretty good reply though…
Great! Thank you
@HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain. From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a …the rest here….
"Hillary Clinton suggests Russians are 'grooming' Tulsi Gabbard for third-party run"
Clinton never mentioned Tulsi Gabbards name !
Gabbard has outed herself as Moscows plant.
Kamala Harris’s press manager has been more specific about Gabbard s Moscow connections.
Gabbard is often featured on RT News.
“Gabbard is an interesting case, because she does have some foreign policy objectives that align with Russia, so it would make sense that a candidate who is known as an Assad apologist is seeing favorable tweets and headlines from some sort of Russian apparatus.”
https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/tulsi-gabbard-russia/
Maybe Stein can start calling herself a Democrat now to take the heat off Tulsi.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/466594-jill-stein-i-am-not-a-russian-spy
If I were a political satirist right now I'd be seriously considering alternative careers. How could anyone make up stuff that tops what really happening?
Satire is dead.
Satire is dead.
Don't look at me. I didn't kill the bugger.
It's been rather ill for the past 45years or so. The recent goings on have finished it off.
Political satire became obsolete when they awarded Henry Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize.
Tom Lehrer
He does a pretty bigly caricature of a satirist.
Wait until Spitting Image gets a hold of him.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news-opinion/spitting-image-return-time-stop-17102857
The sooner, the better. He won’t get it though.
Too bad it's not the 1950's useful idiots like you, Andre and Joe 90 would have been right in your element disseminating paranoia, outing actors, artists, writers etc with the panty hose wearing pervert McCarthy..oh well I guess lates better than never with you dummies.
By the way that link to daily dot is a real low brow shit piece of propaganda, it's so over that top it really could have come staight out of the 50's, but you are in sooo deep you lot can't see the plainly obvious anymore..so here you go guys, this should be up your ally..
We love you too, Adrian! Pucker up now for a big sloppy one 💋
Gabbard is nothing.
She'll be lucky to even keep her seat.
Even if that were true, it's hardly the point.
Gabbard protests, but only Gabbard cares. An unremarkable politician. You won't hear her name again after this cycle.
Wrong as usual.
Ok she's winning then.
Of couse I forgot with you lot winning is everything, even if that means leaving all your ethics principles and morals on the floor to gain the win…
But to give you an answer, again your analysis is flawed as per usual, Gabbard is and has alwyas been about changing the direction of the Democratic party, primarily from one that supports and often enacts aggressive foreign interventions, to one that dosen't.
I am not actually a Gabbard supporter, but I do happen to support that particular extremely important foreign policy platform that she is pushing.
I would say that her own plan for these elections would be that she would like to see Sanders win, and picks up a (well deserved) position in his administration.
You would flip in an instant , if Sanders was the democratic candidate and Gabbard was the 3rd party spoiler
If you believe she is unremarkable, who is going to be the remarkable 2020 candidate to defeat Trump then?
Oh, great. This time Gabbard's the Chosen One. What happened to Bernie's cred?
Grow up man.
Sop the dems have several nominees who might do the job and beat dolt45, then?
Good to know. Tell Mauī
Sounds a bit like – we'll go along with whoever the party chooses and hope for the best.
I'm sure if you squint really hard and ignore logic and basic English, you might see it that way.
Last time I counted the nominees, "several" good 'uns would leave at least a "solid half dozen" banalities, and "a couple" of duds have already withdrawn.
Gabbard is a nothing… and all the neoliberal posterboys are here to tell us so.
This is a hoot!
Show evidence otherwise.
Yeah it is hard to imagine what sort of mental gymnastics must go in in the top four inches of a person who is trying to tell themselves that they are at all 'progressive' or left , while at the same time defending Clinton and the centrist liberal ideology…must be quite a workout.
Dude, three years have passed. This is unhealthy. Let her go.
Not sure what you are talking about, Clinton is the one who attacked Gabbard yesterday, Clinton is the one who keeps trying unsuccessfully to remain relevant..in fact I don't give a fuck about her.
lols whatevs.
What do you mean "laugh out loud, whatever"? are you saying Clinton didn't attck Gabbard yesterday?
If the grooming hat doesn't fit Gabbard, then the imprecise reference wasn't a slur on Gabbard. If the hat does fit Gabbard, then it's a simple truth that the hat fits Gabbard.
But whatevs, you're totally not bovvered anyway, you don't look bovvered at all, lol
You are repeating falsehoods Adrian, Clinton never mentioned Gabbards name – she said a democratic candidate. She also talked about Jill Stein and Trumps possible Russia links.
Kamal Harris's people were talking about Gabbard and Moscow 2 weeks back
You dont GaF , but bought the whole matter up. geez
Are you serious, every one knows Clinon was talking about Gabbard..they where meant too..holy shit man, it's lucky we aren't talking on the phone I might have had to do this….
Kamala Harris's people were saying the same , and directly mentioning Gabbard , 2 weeks ago. has your outrage been only building since then?
Deflecting again…
Secret agents everywhere! Romney has just been unmasked as Democrat plant!
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/466553-trump-knocks-romney-as-democrat-secret-asset-in-new-video
Clinton didnt mention Gabbrad by name but she did say Moscow had компрома́т on Trump!
Trump is the best Democrat asset since Barry Goldwater.
Maybe a bit premature for that judgement … especially since arguably Goldwater laid the foundation for Nixon's '68 win.
Nixon was pretty close against Kennedy – didn't need anyone else hitting the ball up for him.
Trump was a revival programme for the Republicans first time around.
Mid-terms he was better for the Dems.
The Russiagate conspiracy is the best asset Trump has, didn't see the Democrates losing their shit over all the things that Trump has done to make peoples lives worse in the US and around the world, didn't see them vote against the biggest military budget ever or the huge tax cuts for the wealthest in the States…nope their main focus for three whole years has been Russia Russia Russia.
All this while poll after poll showed that the majority of US citizens don't care about Russia or Russiagate.
And yet here you lot are, stepping right in line with a narritive that no one wants to hear, supporting a debunked conspiracy that is seriously in danger of helping re-elect Trump…job well done boys…keep flogging that dead horse.
'didn't see them vote against the biggest military budget ever or the huge tax cuts for the wealthest in the States
Yes they did vote against tax cuts. You are telling lies again.
Tax Cuts , House votes 205 against 227 for . Senate 49 against 51 for
Trumps Defence budget is more trickier to consider as the Democrats only been control of the House this year
OK yes you are right,that was wrong on the tax cuts, what I was meant to say was that the Democates didn't use that as their or similar Trump policies to form the spearhead of their push back to Trump, they instead kept using Russia as their main (blunt) weapon of attack.
Will the but her emails/the server, the server crowd stfu and go back to despising her for being her?
A State Department investigation into former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s private email account found no widespread effort by her aides or other staffers to mishandle classified information.
The three-year-long investigation by State’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security concluded that 38 individuals committed a total of 91 security violations involving emails sent to or from Clinton’s private server.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/18/state-department-hillary-clinton-emails-051380?
Obama was the 'dream candidate' he ended up just like Clinton would have as President …and after.
'Barack Obama to make $1.2m from three Wall Street speeches"
Somehow it seems a little less offensively corrupt to be hauling in megacoin from Wall Street speeches after your term in office than if you do it immediately before running for office.
Trump is strategically brilliant – well so he reckons.
"Trump's Great and Unmatched Wisdom"
Little birds and big adults can both be vulnerable, needing food and housing. Do we have to set up Give a little accounts in a country that has squeezed $7 billion of returns from various places but much from paying beneficiaries less than required and puting barriers in their way for bettering their lives. And having flexible workers who sacrifice their health and wellbeing while they work here and there at odd hours and often on call so hard to plan. Having a birthday party for your 5 year old, phone call, we are short-handed. Letall have a sweet life in NZ again and start spending that $7 billion on human investment giving enjoyment, education and security in people's lives.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018718181/a-poverty-crisis-new-figures-show-demand-for-food-housing
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/401390/south-bay-banded-dotterel-chicks-nearly-wiped-out-by-cats
So many of us need help. Perhaps the government could pay the poor to look after the nation's animals. The government has been instrumental in causing businesses to fold and import companies grow fat on replacing our own manufactures. So look for other jobs that need doing so we can put those spare hours into paid kaitiaki work. 💡 💡
Wonder who it was that got through to the bilious fake-bronze baboon that it's actually illegal for a government employee to award government contracts to their own businesses, and what arguments they used? Let alone that it's a glaring breach of two separate constitutional clauses, and therefore clearly impeachable as a standalone offence.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/19/politics/trump-property-no-longer-considered-for-g7-summit/index.html
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/10/20/prison-conditions-in-decline-howard-league-survey/
…an overall decline in most aspects surveyed. This is not surprising given the culmulative effects of overcrowding and understaffing experienced thoughout New Zealand prisons.
For instance:
(a) poor ventilation in cells, and cells being too hot in summer and too cold in winter. In Auckland at the end of December last year we received reports of night time cell termperatures of 27 degrees.
(b) lack of access to toilets, specifically insufficient access to toilets while being transferred, and while in yards and in day-rooms. As one person put it, “going toilet in a small bottle on a moving vehicle is extremely hard. A number of us spilled it, missed altogether, and overfilled the bottles.”
A gang problem with bells and miniguns.