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Open mike 20/12/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 20th, 2022 - 124 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

124 comments on “Open mike 20/12/2022 ”

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  1. observer 1
    20 December 2022 at 7:22 am

    Imagine that you are the political editor for a major news organisation. You sit down for an extended interview with the man who wants to be PM.

    And then you produce a report which does not have a single specific policy. Or even a hint of one. A parade of platitudes

    The headline is a joke: "Upfront". No. There is nothing there. Zilch.

    A festive chocolate fish for anyone who can point to any content at all in what Luxon says here. Take the challenge …

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130803325/christopher-luxons-endofyear-interview-why-politicians-need-to-be-upfront-about-new-zealands-problems

    • Muttonbird 1.1
      20 December 2022 at 8:18 am

      Policy? Luxon instead used the interview to double down on racist comments.

      At least fellow traveller, Jeremy Clarkson, did accept responsibility and attempted an apology:

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2022/12/uk-tv-presenter-jeremy-clarkson-horrified-meghan-column-caused-hurt.html

    • Incognito 1.2
      20 December 2022 at 9:19 am

      Luke, I am your father.

    • Peter 1.3
      20 December 2022 at 11:50 am

      All of that is so pertinent but there has to be context.

      It doesn't matter that what you say is true. The mass who are against Ardern and Labour, the mass who have it that everything wrong with NZ is down to them and every grievance in their lives personally gets back to them, means Luxon doesn't have to say anything of substance.

      The belief is that magically with 'not Labour' we'll be on the way to enough doctors and nurses and truckies and builders and teachers and farm workers and hospitality workers. And the housing crisis that started in 2017 will be gone and there'll be no poverty. Crime wave and youth crime? In short order they'll become things of the past.

      We have a dumb country and it's destined to determinedly stay that way. The masses don't want to hear reasoned intelligent discussion and solutions.

  2. Sacha 2
    20 December 2022 at 7:44 am

    Solid summary of Fijian election from Canterbury professor https://theconversation.com/a-knife-edge-election-in-fiji-sees-power-shift-and-a-chance-to-bring-back-real-democracy-196465

    This time, Rabuka and Bainimarama – both former military leaders and coup makers – have used the democratic electoral system rather than guns and force to try to win to power. But behind them sits a culture of command and control that will be difficult to dislodge.

    • Sacha 2.1
      20 December 2022 at 9:05 am

      Negotiating demands revealed by kingmaker party

      • Temp ORary 2.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 4:22 pm

        Thanks for the link Sacha, though recent developments have gotten weird:

        Viliame Gavoka is no longer the leader of the Social Democratic Liberal Party.

        SODELPA General Secretary, Lenaitasi Duru says the party leader’s position was deemed vacant, after the party failed to become the majority, as per the party’s constitution…

        Duru says according to the SODELPA constitution, the leader’s position will remain vacant until the party’s Annual General Meeting in 2024.

        https://www.fbcnews.com.fj/news/fijian-elections/gavoka-no-longer-sodelpa-leader/

        As The Conversation piece by Ratuva notes, it is only through Gavoka's son in law that there is any connection between the two parties. So it now seems likely that a 3party coalition led by Rabuka is on the cards. Unless Bainimara declares a state of emergency and calls in the military first. I hope the next Sodelpa leader is chosen before 2024!

        there is a personal link between SODELPA and the FFP, whose secretary (as well as attorney-general and minister for the economy in the previous government) is Aiyaz Sayed-Khaiyum. An Indo-Fijian Muslim, Sayed-Khaiyum is the son-in-law of SODELPA leader Viliame Gavoka, an indigenous Fijian (Taukei).

  3. x Socialist 3
    20 December 2022 at 7:59 am

    [deleted]

    Given David Seymour is dropping hints all over the place that ACT will demand a true conservative government from Luxon, and not a political vehicle that has had a blue paint job over the previous red, the Left may get something out of the upcoming election after all. Coalition talks may get quite nasty between ACT and National. Keep the popcorn handy.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/12/act-leader-david-seymour-questions-christopher-luxon-s-loyalty-to-conservatism-ahead-of-election-year.html

    • Sacha 3.1
      20 December 2022 at 8:20 am

      Act is a radical right-wing party. Never been conservative.

      • x Socialist 3.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 8:31 am

        They are pseudo Libertarians. The coalition at best will be weak conservative. I can't see how coalition talks can get past this hurdle:

        ''In October, Seymour said redefining the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and putting them to a public and binding referendum would be a bottom line in any governing negotiations.''

        • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 8:33 am

          And people think Ardern is divisive?

        • Sacha 3.1.1.2
          20 December 2022 at 8:34 am

          The coalition at best will be weak conservative.

          What will they be conserving?

          • Muttonbird 3.1.1.2.1
            20 December 2022 at 8:43 am

            White privilege, I expect.

          • x Socialist 3.1.1.2.2
            20 December 2022 at 8:51 am

            Instead of being glib, I don't think you quite understand the ramifications of this quote, should ACT get their way. Have a think.

            ''In October, Seymour said redefining the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and putting them to a public and binding referendum would be a bottom line in any governing negotiations.''

            • Sacha 3.1.1.2.2.1
              20 December 2022 at 8:54 am

              So what would that be conserving?

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2.2.2
              20 December 2022 at 9:22 am

              It's all about choice, squeaks Seymour.

              Hobson's Choice.

            • observer 3.1.1.2.2.3
              20 December 2022 at 10:40 am

              FFS, do we have to repeat this every day between now and the election? Are people not getting it or (tediously) pretending not to get it? Every 3 years, same posturing before the election, same reality after it.

              Seymour's "bottom line" means nothing. Here's how it goes:

              Luxon: "Hi Dave, which Cabinet job would you like?"

              Seymour: "None, unless you hold a referendum that will destroy your very brief term as PM".

              Luxon: "None it is then".

              Seymour: "Er, hang on a sec, let's not be too hasty, this referendum idea is … negotiable. Finance portfolio would make it disappear".

              Luxon: "Done".

              The bottom line … isn't. And you know it.

    • Nic the NZer 3.2
      20 December 2022 at 8:29 am

      Not convinced you were paying attention. Christopher said repeal 3-waters and the Maori health authority and then Seymour said, make sure he repeals 3-waters and the Maori health authority.

      Why don't you trust Christopher?

    • weka 3.3
      20 December 2022 at 8:30 am

      first paragraph deleted.

      if you want to reference a politician in the MSM you have to give the reference. eg Luxon was on x radio station talkback date/time. Preferably with a link (yes, this means when you are on the internet about to make a comment on TS, you first google the thing you have listened to).

      This is because we are here for the robust debate, and people reading and commenting having access to the thing you listened improves debate. It's not FB or twitter or a personal blog where one can just say what one thinks, we're not a reckons forum. There is a debate standard.

      You're lucking I didn't just dump the whole comment for wasting moderator time.

      • weka 3.3.1
        20 December 2022 at 8:32 am

        as you can now see, someone is commenting on your response to the unknown talkback and disagreeing with you, but we can't fact check because you didn't provide a reference.

        • x Socialist 3.3.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 8:44 am

          You mean this?

          ''Not convinced you were paying attention. Christopher said repeal 3-waters and the Maori health authority and then Seymour said, make sure he repeals 3-waters and the Maori health authority.''

          • weka 3.3.1.1.1
            20 December 2022 at 9:28 am

            Yes. Here you are again wanting to have a conversation about something without providing the reference you were just modded on.

            take the day off. If you're not going to take moderation seriously, I'm not wasting any more of my time.

  4. Joe90 4
    20 December 2022 at 8:22 am

    In a fucking nutshell.

    • RedLogix 4.1
      20 December 2022 at 9:51 am

      Nah – I judge a political analysis primarily on one thing. Does it have a framework of unity – or division?

      Unity is only possible when you have an evolving set of common principles and purposes in order to have coherence.

      All functioning societies are a tripolar blend of three broad political instincts; conservative, liberal and social. All three fundamentally share a common interest and purpose in a healthy, functioning society; sharing six core human values . Where we differ is in how we place differing weights on these values.

      That in turns means being able to point to what is in and what is out; which introduces the notion of boundaries, and discipline. Each of the three broad political poles can go too far; this is obvious from history. In very broad and simplistic terms:

      When liberalism places too much weight on personal liberty it becomes libertarianism.

      When conservatism places too much weight on sanctity it becomes some form of fascism.

      And when socialism places too much weight on fairness and equity of outcome it becomes marxism.

      Note how the extremists of each group, the libertarians, the fascists and marxists bitterly condemn everyone else as standing in the way of the revolutionary, radical change they dearly wish for. And hate most of all moderates of all shades who get on with negotiating political interests, building consensus and delivering a functioning world.

      • Muttonbird 4.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 10:08 am

        Too much weight on fairness

        Is there such a thing?

        It explains a lot that in your tripolar fantasy world, fairness should moderated.

        • RedLogix 4.1.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 10:36 am

          That is a decent question. I would guess from your commenting record here that it is something you personally place a high value on.

          But everything hinges on how you decide to implement fairness. Equal opportunity is something most people agree on; enforcing equal outcomes is another thing altogether.

          There is a lot of nuance in this; humans seem to thrive with some degree of competition, but our societies also require a high degree of cooperation at at the same time. Yet when the inequality gradient becomes too extreme, when the rungs at the bottom of the ladder are too far apart or missing altogether, this cooperation breaks down and is the trigger for all manner of social dysfunction.

          Clearly both extremes of inequality fail, but measuring and sensing where the optimum balance between them might lie – remains in my view and unsolved problem. Mostly because we are not willing yet to have an honest conversation about what the causes of inequality really are.

    • Sanctuary 4.2
      20 December 2022 at 10:00 am

      The pipeline from phoney left to populist right is represented par excellence by Bradsbury, Trotter, and all the weirdo Putin tankies on the "left" who seem to pine for the certainty of being on the wrong side of the cold war. Maybe all that pro-Putin bullshit they’ve watched on RT has addled their brains, who knows. And since I am old enough to have visited Eastern Europe during the cold war, anyone who took Moscow's shilling was definitely on the wrong side.

      Interesting comment on the idea of the Cathedral/Bazaar model. Most of us who consider ourselves to be on the progressive left understand that we are in an ideological battle with two powerful forces. The first is the donor driven politics of the center right that has ruled our lives for most of the last five decades. The second is an even bigger threat from reactionary nationalists in alliance with religious fundamentalists who want to turn back the clock to some glorious era that never existed except as a nightmare for women and minorities. Trotter and Bradbury only want to fight the first group, and and ignore or even play footsie with a reactionary fascist adjacent right. Trotter spends his whole life in a lengthening shadow of obsessive and increasingly absurd conspiracy theories over race issues, endlessly invoking comparisons between co-governance and the racial policies of the Nazis and harking back in a proto-fascist idealised past. Bradbury's is an amusing blowhard and buffoon, who confesses to utter frustration at the "woke lefts" obsession with identity politics whilst seemingly devoting his entire existence to endlessly making common cause with the libertarian far right to wage an incessant war on the topic. His journey from left to a soft cock Boogaloo Boi is something else.

      • RedLogix 4.2.1
        20 December 2022 at 11:01 am

        Interesting comment on the idea of the Cathedral/Bazaar model. Most of us who consider ourselves to be on the progressive left understand that we are in an ideological battle with two powerful forces. The first is the donor driven politics of the center right that has ruled our lives for most of the last five decades. The second is an even bigger threat from reactionary nationalists in alliance with religious fundamentalists who want to turn back the clock to some glorious era that never existed except as a nightmare for women and minorities

        A restatement of the tripolar model I outlined above. Essentially you have described three political poles – progressive socialism, liberalism and conservatism.

        Liberalism promotes innovation, liberty and development. Conservatism balances this with a respect for institutions, systems and reliability. Socialism looks to fairness, respect and redistribution. Each of them plays a legitimate role in a healthy society; politics is the eternal contention between all three as time and circumstance change.

        Extremism is when any of these three steps over a boundary. You can tell when you are an extremist because you conceive of yourself as a sole arbiter of of a singular truth, isolated in a battle against everyone else.

    • weka 4.3
      20 December 2022 at 10:10 am

      I'd like to see the argument made that Trotter and/or Redline have abandoned class struggle. I disagree with Trotter a fair amount, and I don't read him that often, but it's quite the claim that he has no class analysis.

      Likewise claiming Redline have no class analysis. Whatever criticisms there are to be made about the politics of both, this just seems like an anti-anti reaction.

    • weka 4.4
      20 December 2022 at 10:15 am

      Scratching my head at this too,

      They want to defend the WRONG THING from neoliberalism – strong, closed-borders states.

      Is she a supporter of open borders? Because neoliberalism does whatever the fuck it wants with borders eg the Key government used fast, excessive immigration as a tool in running the neoliberal economy. Unless one is in favour of open borders, I can't see how neoliberalism can be characterised as closed borders.

      • joe90 4.4.1
        20 December 2022 at 10:33 am

        We live in a strong, open border state where we can come and go as we please.

        • weka 4.4.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 12:31 pm

          yeah, well I've yet to see a left wing explanation of how that will protect communities and the environment. The people I see running that position basically live in cities and visit nature and have zero plan for ecology and increasing population. Nor how to resolve the problems of resource depletion and how that impacts on low income/poor people.

          Where Trotter and co react against that, they're holding a conservative position as a service to the community because of the liberals who think open borders are all good. I don't agree with Trotter much, but I think liberals believe they can force everyone to agree with them so what can they expect.

          • weka 4.4.1.1.1
            20 December 2022 at 12:32 pm

            and of course there are clear parallels with women's rights and gender ideologists. People without healthy boundaries are just as dangerous as the people with authoritarian control boundaries.

            • RedLogix 4.4.1.1.1.1
              20 December 2022 at 12:47 pm

              People without healthy boundaries are just as dangerous as the people with authoritarian control boundaries.

              Well yes. An idea I have been articulating here for some time. We might well debate the details of exactly where these boundaries are located – but it is worth noting the points we do align on.

        • Descendant Of Smith 4.4.1.2
          20 December 2022 at 11:04 pm

          The neo-liberal approach to border control is that executives/managerial class are free to ply their trade anywhere in the world (necessary as they continually move their production to where the lowest labour costs / best tax incentives are) whereas workers are not free to move willy nilly around the world to work.

          This is embedded in international trade agreements in many cases and results in things like RSE at one end and the procession of overseas CEO's running and wrecking our public institutions at the other.

          Border control remains a class issue.

    • swordfish 4.5
      20 December 2022 at 1:34 pm

      .

      LOL … spare me the ID pols bullshit from pampered well-to-do virtue-signalers like dear old Daphne … Oligarchic Capitalism absolutely loves the affluent Woke cadre within the Professional Middle Class … its inherent divisiveness, its rejection of traditional Social Democratic class politics in favour of systematically scapegoating the non-indigenous majority of the working & lower-middle classes into a degraded, powerless second-class citizenship.

      The new Woke Corporate Oligarchy, with its radically redefined Woke-Identitarian ideology, mirrors sanctimonious bourgeois ID politics activists of the pretend-"Left" in being no friend of democracy and no friend of class politics.

      The ruthlessly self-interested masquerading as moral exemplars.

      Bryce Edwards, Chris Trotter, DaphnaRedliner & a few others are a breath of fresh air against the perversion of the Left into a self-serving Vanity Project for an affluent, increasingly authoritarian segment of society.

    • bwaghorn 5.1
      20 December 2022 at 11:19 am

      Surely she wouldn't openly side with a couple that have decided to operate open warfare by useing a completely one sided attack on netflix (haven't nor will ever watch it)

      • Anker 5.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 4:07 pm

        Bwagon, I suspect Jacinda wouldn't have openly sided with H and M. The "close bond"may be tested a bit if they have used her without her permission

  6. Ed 6
    20 December 2022 at 9:03 am

    Clare Daly speaks truth to power.

    In modern war the only winner is global capital. Ordinary people always lose. Remember that next time there's talk about peace being "treason."

    • Sanctuary 6.1
      20 December 2022 at 9:40 am

      The trouble with this sort of nonsense is the ordinary people of the Ukraine have their own agency, and they beg to differ. Ukrainians know peace at any price is just another word for suicide.

      • mikesh 6.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 11:03 am

        It's good to see someone in politics making a sensible speech concerning the Ukrainian war. The point about having to pay four times the previous price for energy and forcing people to choose between eating and keeping warm is a point worth hammering home.

        And the Ukranianians don't know that peace talks mean "suicide" We cannot "know" something that isn't true.

        the

        • Ed 6.1.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 11:21 am

          Spot on mikesh

          The Ukrainians tried to make peace In April, but Boris Johnson was sent over to make sure the war was continued.

          https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-must-not-be-pressured-into-bad-peace-deal-says-uk-pm-johnson-2022-06-07/

          • mikesh 6.1.1.1.1
            20 December 2022 at 11:51 am

            Yes. I forgot to mention the point Miss Daly made about the Americans laughing at Europe. The Americans don't want the war to end because they see it as weakening Russia, and if it weakens Europe also, that's a bonus.

            It all contributes to the cause of American hegemony.

            • Ed 6.1.1.1.1.1
              20 December 2022 at 11:52 am

              And that is what this proxy war is all about.

              • Gabby …
                20 December 2022 at 2:12 pm

                What a shame that pooty can't see that he's being played.

              • Jenny are we there yet …
                21 December 2022 at 9:43 am

                The lesson; If you don't want a proxy war on your borders. Don't invade your neighbours.

                Russia is fighting the US and Nato in Ukraine?

                Was the US fighting Russia and the Warsaw Pact in Vietnam?

                While Vietnamese morale, patriotism, superior training and the belief that theirs was a just cause were clearly critical factors, the victory was also due to the virtually ceaseless flow of weapons from Russia.

                Yes of course there was some element of 'proxy war' but principally the Vietnam war, was a war against US domination and take over.

                The superpowers like to see their imperial rivals get a black eye.

                But without the Vietnamese willingness to fight and resist the US invasion the Soviet Union would have had no where to send their weapons.

                The same in Ukraine, again there is an element of 'proxy war' but principally the Ukraine war is a war against Russian domination and take over.

                https://www.rbth.com/…/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of…

                • Ed …
                  21 December 2022 at 10:34 am

                  The proxy war started before 2014.
                  A simple reading of history shows the Americans were involved in the 2014 coup and have been arming and training the Ukrainian army ever since.

                  And if you remember the history of the Vietnam war, the Americans started by sending ‘trainers’to assist the South Vietnamese…

                  That is why we urgently need a ceasefire.

                  • joe90 …
                    21 December 2022 at 10:44 am

                    A simple reading of history shows the Americans were involved in the 2014 coup

                    Evidence? Or another soft-headed reckon?

                    • Ed …
                      21 December 2022 at 11:00 am

                      Joe, are really trying to say the Americans weren’t involved in the 2014 coup?

                      Wow.

                    • joe90 …
                      21 December 2022 at 11:16 am

                      Joe, are really trying to say the Americans weren’t involved in the 2014 coup?

                      I'll ask again, do you have any evidence Americans were involve?

          • joe90 6.1.1.1.2
            20 December 2022 at 1:08 pm

            The Ukrainians tried to make peace In April,

            Really? Do you have any evidence?

            Boris Johnson was sent over to make sure the war was continued.

            Cite?

    • Jenny are we there yet 6.2
      20 December 2022 at 10:32 am

      The Russian aggressor will not even agree to a Christmas truce.

      Is A Christmas Truce In Ukraine Possible?

      …..When asked if Moscow would consider a proposal to cease hostilities over the Christmas or New Year period, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, said “There is no such topic on the agenda.”

      https://worldcrunch.com/christmas-truce-in-ukraine

      Russia launches one of its most damaging missile attacks yet against civilian infrastructure

      UKRAINE INVASION

      Ukraine invasion: Russia fires scores of missiles in one of its biggest attacks on Ukraine

      18/12/2022

      Reuters

      Russia fired more than 70 missiles at Ukraine on Friday in one of its biggest attacks since the start of the war, knocking out power in the second-biggest city and forcing Kyiv to implement emergency blackouts nationwide, Ukrainian officials said.

      Three people were killed when an apartment block was hit in central Kryvyi Rih and another died in shelling in Kherson in the south,….

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2022/12/ukraine-invasion-russia-fires-scores-of-missiles-in-one-of-its-biggest-attacks-on-ukraine.html

      A unilateral withdrawal back to the their own borders is the only guarantee of a proper lasting peace with the Russian Federation invaders.

      • mikesh 6.2.1
        20 December 2022 at 7:56 pm

        I think the Orthodox Churches – Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, etc. – do not attach much importance to Christmas, For them the main event in the Christian calendar is Easter. For someone to suggest a ceasefire for Christmas seems a little pernicious.

        • joe90 6.2.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 8:31 pm

          Christmas Day by the Gregorian calendar is an official government holiday in Ukraine. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church celebrates pretty much like every other Catholic church does.

          Orthodox Church of Ukraine celebrations begin today our time, St Nicholas day, when Ukrainian kids clean and leave their footwear along with their Christmas letters on the window sill and St Nicholas visits overnight and leaves presents, and the festival runs through to late January.

          So no, there's nothing at all pernicious about Christmas ceasefire proposals.

    • Sanctuary 7.1
      20 December 2022 at 9:35 am

      China appears to adopted ACT's COVID response policy, and “Let whoever needs to be infected infected, let whoever needs to die die. Early infections, early deaths, early peak, early resumption of production.” is going about as well as you'd expect.

      • RedLogix 7.2.1
        20 December 2022 at 10:11 am

        As a vassal state of the Russian empire for centuries, and until very recently a captive of the same corrupt, kleptocratic mode of governance – this does seem entirely possible.

        And when the Ukrainian people chose to go in a different direction, sacrifice their lives for this – you do nothing but shit on them.

        • adam 7.2.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 10:58 am

          Yeah what was Ed thinking being critical of the proliferation of arms towards other conflicts.

          /sarc

          • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1
            20 December 2022 at 11:10 am

            Indeed no-one supports that kind of proliferation. I did not imagine that needed spelling out.

            But the claim made by Ed was 'Ukraine is a corrupt country'. Fair enough that I might question why.

            • adam 7.2.1.1.1.1
              20 December 2022 at 2:11 pm

              Did you see the response below – it does need to be spelt out. Because we have those who are supplying the weapons being incapable of keeping a track of the money it is spending.

              And as you said below, those selling the weapons are playing 'a hell of a dangerous game". I've read reports in the past, that some factions are they selling them to the Russians, which is total FUBAR and should be stopped. I don't think it's 70%, but even 1% is to much in my opinion.

              • RedLogix …
                20 December 2022 at 2:30 pm

                Any amount would be too much, but if it is as low as 1% I would be delighted. Ukraine will be no more immune from having traitorous fuckers than anywhere else.

                Point is, the leakage is probably some low number, no-one as a reliable handle on it – and Ed is still repeating weak propaganda sources without thinking much.

                • Ed …
                  20 December 2022 at 2:55 pm

                  You are aware that the US is also involved in propaganda?

                  • RedLogix …
                    20 December 2022 at 3:18 pm

                    Well of course; but have you just implicitly acknowledged that Russia does propaganda too?

                    The simple difference is this – there are Russian troops in Ukraine and not the other way around. No amount of agitprop, or obfuscation over the meaning of words from either side, can gloss over that reality.

                    It was Putin who turned a diplomatic confrontation into a kinetic one; he started this war and he still has the power to end it at any moment.

                    • Ed …
                      20 December 2022 at 3:25 pm

                      The war started in 2014.
                      It suits NATO and the US to pretend the events of February 2022 came out of the blue. It didn’t.

                • adam …
                  20 December 2022 at 11:25 pm

                  Not sure if it is a low number and here why. Reports have surfaced that the weapons are in Russia, Syria, and as of last week or so, Africa. With a spread like that, not a small number. I'd guess maybe 3-6% of all materials, including weapons. And in the shear scale of whats being sent that is a large amount.

                  I'm guessing (wild guess) it's Russian Ukraine's or Gangs who are doing the selling. With the flood of arms and other materials its just too easy in a war zone which is having it's infrastructure systematically destroyed, for stuff to go missing.

      • Gabby 7.2.2
        20 December 2022 at 2:15 pm

        I'm not sure that the US minds very much if terrorists are armed.

    • joe90 7.3
      20 December 2022 at 10:15 am

      The procurement and destination of weapons and materiels is at the heart of any military's operations security.

      But the AFU will be delighted to hear that their enemy thinks they're losing 70% of US supplied arms.

      /

    • Jenny are we there yet 7.4
      20 December 2022 at 10:49 am

      On one hand the Putin fanboys tell us that Ukraine is only beating Russia solely because of Western military aid. Now they are saying only a fraction of this military aid 30% is reaching them?

      All I can say to that, is the Ukrainian people are mounting a remarkable defence of their homeland against the Russian invading forces without it.

      • adam 7.4.1
        20 December 2022 at 11:03 am

        It's the spilling of the arms out to other conflicts which is the problem Jenny are we there yet. How many of these weapons and materials are ending up in Russian hands? Or the head choppers in Syria?

      • joe90 7.4.2
        20 December 2022 at 11:16 am

        On one hand the Putin fanboys tell us that Ukraine is only beating Russia solely because of Western military aid.

        Umberto Eco;

        However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.

      • mikesh 7.4.3
        20 December 2022 at 11:28 am

        Presumably the Ukrainians are finding 70% of the weapons to be surplus to requirements and are therefor flogging them off for cash the they need to buy other consumer goods of which they have a greater need.

    • Macro 7.5
      20 December 2022 at 11:37 am

      FFS that old and erroneous article – published over 6 months ago has been roundly debunked and shown by actual events to be a load of hogwash.

      Here is just one article where CBS has had to pull a report based in the bullshit being peddled here.

      There are many others if anyone wants to waste some time .

      U.S. and Ukrainian officials say they have not documented any instances of illicit use or transfer of American arms in Ukraine since Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his invasion on Feb. 24. The State Department has acknowledged that Russian forces’ capture of Ukrainian arms could lead to those weapons being smuggled on to other countries. Other weapons have gone missing; a Swedish grenade launcher, apparently pilfered from a battlefield in Ukraine, exploded in the trunk of a car in Russia in May.

      Arms trade experts warn that the administration and its allies must remain on guard despite the broad Western support for Kyiv’s effort to confront Putin’s invasion and the brutal tactics his forces have used against Ukrainian cities and civilians.

      Rachel Stohl, the vice president for research programs at the Washington-based Stimson Center, said officials also must develop longer-term plans to ensure the security of surplus U.S. weapons once the conflict with Russia ends, noting Ukraine’s history as a theater for small-arms smuggling after the Cold War.

      • Ed 7.5.1
        20 December 2022 at 11:45 am

        In which case why have arms turned up in the Mail Basin? This story is dated December 3rd.

        CBS, as a United States news source in a proxy war involving the US, cannot be regarded as an impartial source.

      • mikesh 7.5.2
        20 December 2022 at 12:01 pm

        This would seem to imply that the Russians have captured 70% of the weapons supplied. Are the Russians more successful in this war than the propagandists are letting on?

        Actually, where does the 70% figure come from?

        • Macro 7.5.2.1
          20 December 2022 at 12:55 pm

          where does the 70% figure come from?

          Out of someones arse.

          An NBC report cited a small-scale Lithuanian non-lethal supplier to Ukraine who estimated only 40% of shipped weapons reached the frontlines in the early stages of the 2022 war. Months later, the report was repackaged by RT, citing a CBS claim that 70% of shipped weapons were misappropriated.

      • RedLogix 7.5.3
        20 December 2022 at 12:06 pm

        Exactly.

        If the CBS had really turned up solid information that 70% of weapons were not making it to the Ukrainian front – then it is reasonable to think people in Ukraine would know this fact as well.

        And what do you imagine would happen to someone caught in such treachery? Because that is exactly what it is – and traitors everywhere are marked out for a very short life.

        It would be silly to suggest there is no leakage of this sort, but it is a hell of a dangerous game to be playing.

      • adam 7.5.4
        20 December 2022 at 2:16 pm

        Oh please the state department is in full propaganda mode over this war.

        They are a source I take with a grain of salt, like RT.

        • Macro 7.5.4.1
          20 December 2022 at 4:02 pm

          It is RT who are currently peddling the 70% claim adam.

          Have a good read of the CBS article on which the original estimate was based. This was in April just over a month after the invasion by Russia. Understandably things would be a little chaotic then and supply lines would be patchy at best – remember the chaos as millions of people were fleeing the country at that time. Logistical supplies would take time to progress through to the front lines even with the best will in the world.

          Jonas Ohman is founder and CEO of Blue-Yellow, a Lithuania-based organization that has been meeting with and supplying frontline units with non-lethal military aid in Ukraine since the start of the conflict with Russia-backed separatists in 2014. Back in April, he estimated that just "30-40%" of the supplies coming across the border reached its final destination. But he says the situation has significantly improved since then and a much larger quantity now gets where it's supposed to go.

          and in particular the editors note:

          Editor's note: This article has been updated to reflect changes since the CBS Reports documentary "Arming Ukraine" was filmed, and the documentary is also being updated. Jonas Ohman says the delivery has significantly improved since filming with CBS in late April. The government of Ukraine notes that U.S. defense attaché Brigadier General Garrick M. Harmon arrived in Kyiv in August 2022 for arms control and monitoring.

  8. Anker 8
    20 December 2022 at 9:38 am

    I don't know who Daphne Lawless is Joe 90.
    And what is the “Cathedral/ Bazaar model”? When I googled it I got stuff about it being about software

    But she is utterly incorrect about Redline. They have not rejected class analysist and the link below about the Workers Now political party indicates this. Strong rights given to unions, low tax threseholds for workers, womens spaces for women only (non woke), free speech for all as workers need to be free to debate ideas.

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/12/15/workers-now/

    I read most of Chris Trotters articles and he certainly brings class analysis into what he is writing (although I suspect he would call himself a social democratic (sorry Chris if I am misrepresenting you).

  9. UncookedSelachimorpha 9
    20 December 2022 at 11:24 am

    We are being treated on this site to disinformation about Ukraine, courtesy of a few who have fallen into Kremlin propaganda. One of the egregious lies that Russia invented to justify their murderous and unprovoked invasion is that Ukraine "is Nazi".

    Ukrainian Jews give some of the strongest rebukes to this nonsense.

    Ukraine’s Jews denounce myth of rampant Nazism

    ….attempts to smear Kyiv as a Nazi-led regime are nothing more than "Russian propaganda." The Nazi myth has infuriated Ukraine’s Jews. Not only does it ignore their voices. It puts Jewish lives in danger.

    …Alexander Shatkhin (of no relation to Igor) is a lifelong Odesa resident who attended a Jewish school as a child. He characterized Ukraine as "super safe" for Jews and said that antisemitism hasn’t been a serious issue since the 1990s, when "Soviet thinking" was the norm. A seasoned traveler, he believes that Ukraine is safer for Jews than many Western European states…

    …In November, 111 Ukrainian Jewish leaders signed a public letter calling Ukrainian Jews victims of Russian war crimes and denouncing Putin’s destruction of Holocaust memorials, synagogues, and Jewish cemeteries. Those who believe that Ukraine is full of Nazis should listen to these Jews, who are natural experts on this subject

    • Ed 9.1
      20 December 2022 at 11:27 am

      Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer amongst other informed and independent experts and thinkers present a different narrative to the one we are being fed by the corporate mainstream media, yes.

      It is not misinformation, though.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.1.1
        20 December 2022 at 2:36 pm

        I have agreed with various things from Chomsky and Pilger in the past – but not on this.

        Seems they have intellectualised themselves into knots, and have emerged defending imperialism, dictatorship, war crimes and censorship.

        They remind me of the conversation at the start of this clip…"It would be wise".

        • Ed 9.1.1.1
          20 December 2022 at 2:57 pm

          They remain voices I respect.

        • RedLogix 9.1.1.2
          20 December 2022 at 3:04 pm

          They have abandoned reason for madness.

          Chomsky and Pilger would do well to get out from behind their keyboards, visit the country they profess to care so much about – and listen to ordinary Ukrainian people.

          Good clip.yes

    • mikesh 9.2
      20 December 2022 at 11:39 am

      The Ukrainian Jews seem to be attacking a "straw man". I doubt whether, these days, Ukrainian fascism has anything to do with antisemitism.

    • Francesca 9.3
      20 December 2022 at 1:46 pm

      There's no controversy around the fact that Ihor Kolomoisky, a jewish Ukrainian oligarch with an Israeli passport funded the Azov militia when it began in 2014.He had no problem with its neo nazi symbols and ideology, as long as it was effective in brutalising his competitors and attacking the Russians of the Donbas.It was effectively his own private militia.

      Azov was also backed by the interior ministry of the Ukrainian govt, many of whom are Jewish , so this nonsense that no Jew would countenance far right neo nazis is quite false

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

    • joe90 9.4
      20 December 2022 at 1:49 pm

      The people who gave the world the anti-cosmopolitan campaign the doctors plot, and the night of the murdered poets are smearing Jews, again.

      Surely not?

      Russia is returning to the days of the former Soviet Union when it comes to antisemitism, fired by the need for a “scapegoat,” the former Chief Rabbi of Moscow asserted in an interview published on Thursday.

      “Russia is returning to the Soviet Union, not in terms of communism, but in terms of its isolation from the rest of the world, antisemitism, general mobilization, repression of dissidents, and economic hardship,” Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt said in an interview with the Spanish Catholic news outlet Alfa & Omega. “It has become a very unpleasant place to live.”

      Goldchmidt said that 50,000 Jews had left Russia for Israel since President Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine at the end of February, a process he emphasized he had “encouraged.”

      “Russia has a very difficult history of government antisemitism,” Goldschmidt observed. “When things go wrong, they look for a scapegoat.”

      […]

      Crude antisemitic rhetoric had surfaced again in the context of the invasion of Ukraine, Goldschmidt noted, for example in the claim of Russian propagandists that the war is an operation to “denazify” Ukraine — a stance the rabbi dismissed as “utter nonsense.”

      In that regard, Goldschmidt also mentioned the false claim made by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that Adolf Hitler had “Jewish blood”, the allegation made by Russian Security Council Aleksei Pavlov that the Orthodox Chabad movement is a “sect,” and the authorities ongoing attempts to shutter the local operations of the Jewish Agency, which assists those making aliyah to Israel.

      https://www.algemeiner.com/2022/12/15/putins-russia-returning-to-soviet-era-antisemitism-former-chief-rabbi-of-moscow-asserts/

      • RedLogix 9.4.1
        20 December 2022 at 2:10 pm

        For what it is worth; in the two short periods I lived and worked in Russia I encountered a casual anti-Semitic (and a frank racism directed specifically toward black people ) often enough to surprise me.

        That is to say not a daily occurrence or openly blatant, but often enough to suggest it was not rare either.

        n=1 and all that.

  11. SPC 11
    20 December 2022 at 12:53 pm

    A Labour reboot for 2023

    TAX

    1. Adopt the Greens 1% wealth tax on those with asset equity over $1M
    2. The American concept of progressive income tax for companies as we do for individuals (so high profit companies pay more tax – the Oz banks etc)
    3. A FTT (if seen as more efficient than incorporation of the financial services sector into GST)
    4. 1-3 enabling reduced income tax and or WFF/AS changes.
    5. A land tax for contributions to an infrastructure fund (for housing/PT/water etc)
    6. The first year after any increase in AS involves a rent freeze

    Housing

    1. buy up homes (those with space for granny flat small builds extra) and or lease to increase the number of state houses charging income related rent to 100,000 and get people out of motels.
    2. the current upgrade/renovate or replace phase to get Kainga Ora stock up to modern standard include a focus on disability and aged friendly accommodation renovation.
    3. take advantage of the building downturn to reboot Kiwibuild – and allow existing flat/apartment owners to buy in when starting a family, aging singles seeking co-ownership companionship/mutual support, and boomers downsizing (see 7) (this allows sales while mortgage rates are high).

    Welfare

    1. Disability singles at super rates, and the base income support rate when in partnership

    2. move repayment of debt to the TD model (begins once people have employment)

    3. support those with terminal sickness or undergoing cancer treatment at ACC levels

    4. refinance the debt of women going onto the DPB after divorce (and become partners in making mortgage payments, leading in some long term cases to the home becoming a state house).

    PT

    1. Free offpeak to CSC holders and students. Half fare otherwise.

    Health

    1. no tertiary debt repayments required for anyone working in our health system

    2. investment in drugs that keep people in employment and out of health care (GP/hospital/carer) dependency to reduce system costs and stress on capability

    Dental.

    1. Expand CS card service from hospital treatment (emergency check and tooth removal) to annual dental visits.
    2. Expand hospital treatment to low income workers.

  12. SPC 12
    20 December 2022 at 1:02 pm

    After spending around 18 months investigating the riot, the House of Representatives select committee recommended at their final meeting on Monday that Mr Trump face four charges:

    • Inciting, assisting, aiding or comforting an insurrection
    • Obstruction of an official proceeding
    • Conspiracy to defraud the United States
    • Conspiracy to make a false statement

    Predictably Donald Trump has called the SC, a "kangaroo court"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64034559

    The term kangaroo court comes from the notion of justice proceeding "by leaps", like a kangaroo – in other words, "jumping over" (intentionally ignoring) evidence that would be in favour of the defendant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

    Are kangaroo courts illegal?

    Referring to a legal trial as a kangaroo court is a serious charge, since it implies that the trial was not conducted in a legal or fair fashion. Outside the United States, the term is not as widely heard

    https://www.mylawquestions.com/what-is-a-kangaroo-court.htm

    • adam 12.1
      20 December 2022 at 2:22 pm

      Between the NFTS and this, I think we can finally call trump, done.

    • Peter 12.2
      20 December 2022 at 2:27 pm

      Oh that's a surprise, Trump calls it a kangaroo court and wants the talk to be about that.

      I thought it was an investigation, an inquiry into what happened on Jan 6 and around that. I realise the committee heard from many, many people. I heard that others who had information refused to share what they knew. People who apparently had dealings with Trump on that day as events unfolded.

      The definition including "that would be in favour of the defendant"? There was no defendant. There was no trial. It was not a court.

  14. Robert Guyton 14
    20 December 2022 at 4:01 pm

    You see! (Why are we wasting our energy talking about Seymour??)

    "The Green Party welcomes an historic new global agreement to protect 30% of the planet for nature by the end of the decade and calls on the Government to follow it with immediate action to protect native wildlife."

    https://www.greens.org.nz/urgent_action_needed_at_home_following_global_deal_for_nature

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 15.1
      20 December 2022 at 5:35 pm

      Hopefully some goodwill gestures await. Goodwill all the way back to Ukraine's borders would be nice.

  16. Jenny are we there yet 16
    20 December 2022 at 10:09 pm

    RT Russia Today, speculates on Russia's defeat in their war with Ukraine.

    RT accuses Ukraine and Nato of planning a genocide of Russian speakers in Ukraine on Russia's defeat.

    The weird thing is the President of Ukraine is a native Russian speaker, who learnt to speak Russian at school.

    The weird thing about this story is that the Russian Federation have been mercilessly bombing the Russian speaking Ukrainian city of Odessa

    The other weird thing, the President of Ukraine is a native Russian speaker, who learnt to speak Russian at school. Will he too be rounded up in this supposed post war pogrom of Russian speakers?

    Bu truly the most weirdest thing about this claim, in a paragraph that would not be out of place in an episode of Black Adder Goes To War, RT's evidence for this supposedly planned genocide of Russian speakers in the Donbas following a Ukraine victory is the lack of any evidence for it.

    17 Dec, 2022 16:29

    HomeRussia & FSU

    What will happen to ethnic Russians in Donbass and Crimea, if Ukraine and NATO emerge victorious from the current conflict?

    ….if Kiev and NATO win, what happens to the Russians living in the regions they will have ‘liberated’? This is the question I posed to both former and current US government officials and experts. But no one would answer. So I searched online. Likewise, nothing. No detailed information on Kiev’s post-war plan. Their silence is sinister.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/568369-nato-russians-donbass-crimea/

    • Jenny are we there yet 16.1
      20 December 2022 at 10:17 pm

      The morning after Russia's retreat from Ukraine, Ukrainian army officers will rip off their Ukrainian uniforms to reveal their black Waffen SS uniforms complete with glittering silver deaths head insignia and will order the round up of millions of Ukrainian Russian speakers. President Zelensky having served his purpose, will be detained and stripped of his titles and with the other Russian speakers loaded into cattle cars to be transported to one of many newly built extermination camps alongside all the Jews and Gypsies (OMG Zelensky a Russian speaking Jew, will be doubly damned)

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  • Progress on public service pay adjustment
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  • Further legislation introduced to support cyclone recovery
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  • Duty relief for cyclone-affected businesses
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  • Thousands of sole parents to be better off after child support changes
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