Open mike 20/05/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 20th, 2014 - 284 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

284 comments on “Open mike 20/05/2014”

  1. have you yet found the new show from/by daily show alumni john oliver..?

    ..it’s rather good..

    ..this link has three clips..

    ..and that should be enough to get you hooked..

    http://www.motherjones.com/media/2014/05/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-interview-politics-comedy-hbo

  2. Awww 2

    http://www.writehanded.org/blog/2014/05/18/the-one-beneficiary-who-is-different-no/

    “David [Farrar] has said he was using me as an example of where the system isn’t working. What it feels like to me is being strung up to make a point. He’s opened me up to his commenters. People who read Kiwiblog are, for the most part, not sympathetic to beneficiaries.

    The comments are unsurprising. At least most of them are not attacking me personally (so far) but the problem is – they’re missing the point. They’re saying “Oh, this one’s different. She’s actually sick. Not like all those other ones who are rorting the system.”

    They think I represent a minority. They congratulate me on my honesty and my attempts to work. It sickens me to the core. I don’t need them to thank me for telling the truth. For trying to get on with my life and do what little I can to get by and get well.

    And the truth is, I’m not a minority. People who are on benefits who shouldn’t be are the minority. The neural pathway to “dole bludger” is burned deep and they just can’t see past it. It doesn’t help that every which way you turn the government are doing their best to reinforce it.”

    • tc 2.1

      It is beyond most on the rights ability to believe benefits are a vital part of a caring society that has failed the recipients by not providing jobs etc.

      Much easier to swallow the govt lines, read slater, penguin post and feel smug n superior whilst writing off your fellow kiwis who are victims of an uncaring govt.

      Nact want people to believe an issue they have made worse is not their problem, like housing, environment etc etc then off to the polls sheeple.

      • Tracey 2.1.1

        Despite not having a goal of 0% employment, national and supporters rail on those without jobs to get the jobs that are there…. Bill English believes full employment is a hoax, apparently.

        • Gosman 2.1.1.1

          Maybe the left has an unspoken goal of 0% employment. The right tends towards a lot higher.

          • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1

            Of course – minimising the number of employees maximises corporate profits. And if you really need employees try and get rid of the NZ ones and employ ones in China for $2/hr instead.

            • Gosman 2.1.1.1.1.1

              The trouble for you is that capital doesn’t tend towards the lowest cost countries in terms of labour and the countries that do gain foreign investment generally see higher increases in wages as a result.

              • Colonial Viper

                and the countries that do gain foreign investment generally see higher increases in wages as a result.

                That’s why American corporations are abandoning Chinese coastal manufacturing areas and shifting into the undeveloped inland provinces, or leaving China altogether and taking their factories and employment to cheaper places like Vietnam.

                Hey that’s interesting, China seems to be provoking some military and economic tensions with Vietnam, that’s a coincidence isn’t it.

            • infused 2.1.1.1.1.2

              You get an eye roll for that one.

              • Colonial Viper

                It’s what Fisher & Paykel did laying off NZ staff and moving manufacturing to Mexico and the Philippines (?). They didn’t move the factories for improved scenery or better quality anyways.

                • Gosman

                  If capital really did go to the lowest (not lower) cost countries then African nations would be getting all the foreign investment. Africa actually suffers from a lack of foreign investment and even arch-anti capitalists like Zanu-PF are crying out for it.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Well if you ignore all the other factors that corporates also consider like energy infrastructure, political stability, logistics, security situation, population literacy etc. you might have a point.

                    As for Zanu-PF: they’re irrelevant.

                    • Gosman

                      I agree. There are multiple reasons why an organisation or individual might invest in another country. Cost of labour is but one of them and not usually the most important by a long way.

                      This still doesn’t explain how the idea that allowing companies to more offshore somehow leads to a race to the bottom. Labour rates in countries with lots of foreign investment tend to increase at higher rates than those that don’t receive such investment.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      How can labour rates increase? Labour rates increasing mandates falling profitability and shareholders and institutional investors alike do not like that.

                      Wage arbitrage in the form of exporting well paid western jobs to lower cost developing countries has been going on for 30 years. Yes Chinese worker pay has increased in that time, at the expense of western workers whose pay increases have flatlined while western employment has dropped precipitously.

                      I don’t know why you would support such an economic regime but apparently you do.

                    • Gosman

                      Wage rates rising does not imply falling profitability. That is the wrongheaded thinking of neo-Marxism. Profitability can be increased in numerous ways without having low labour rates.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sorry what commercial world are you on?

                      Removing one employee in a team of five and redistributing the workload to the remaining 4 people adds about $50K to the corporate bottom line instantly.

                      It’s an absolutely certain way to increase shareholder returns, straight away no ifs or buts.

                    • Gosman

                      Not necessarily. Imagine you have 4 staff and you want to increase production. It might be beneficial to give everyone a 20 percent pay increase if they produce the same level of output as 5 workers if they increase their productivity levels.

                    • Tracey

                      “This still doesn’t explain how the idea that allowing companies to more offshore somehow leads to a race to the bottom. Labour rates in countries with lots of foreign investment tend to increase at higher rates than those that don’t receive such investment.”

                      It did wonders for Ireland…

                    • Lanthanide

                      Removing one employee in a team of five and redistributing the workload to the remaining 4 people adds about $50K to the corporate bottom line instantly.

                      That’s a simplistic way of looking at it that embeds many assumptions.

                      For example, you’re assuming those other 4 workers can in fact do the same job to the same standard as the 5th person that was let go. If they in fact cannot do the same job to the same standard, while you may be saving $50k in costs, you may not make up for it in profit. You may even end up losing proportionally more profit from that 5th employee going.

                      Also, this does not consider long-term implications. If you have 5 people and 1 person is off work sick, you’re not nearly as impacted as when you have 4 people and 1 person is off work sick. Once again, this could disproportionately affect profit compared to continue to employ 5 people.

                      I realise that managers probably do not take this things into account nearly as much as they should, or just gloss over it and imagine everything is fine. But that doesn’t mean these aren’t things that should be considered and are quite possible outcomes of reducing headcount.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Africa actually suffers from a lack of foreign investment…

                    Actually, Africa has so much foreign investment already that it’s losing at least 10% of what it produces to rich foreigners (Piketty et al, Capitalism in the 21st Century). It is, quite simply, what’s keeping Africa poor.

                    • infused

                      Africa was predicted as the new India/China years ago. Finally taking hold.

                    • Gosman

                      Africa receives very little of the world’s total FDI. It is one of the reasons most (sensible) countries are desperate to attract it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Maybe – need to wait and see what the Chinese commodity demand slump does first. The US is increasing it’s military strength on the continent too.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Africa receives very little of the world’s total FDI.

                      [citation needed]

                      I did, after all, provide a citation that shows that the majority of capital in Africa is foreign owned. Of course, a lot of that ownership goes back a couple of centuries so it could be that Africa doesn’t get much FDI today while still being majority owned by foreigners.

                • infused

                  Well that’s a bit more specific. Had no idea what you were on about.

                  In Fisher & Paykel’s case, I think it was do that or die. They were and still are being destroyed by competition.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    That’s what happens when your product design goes from being known to last forever, to being known to be mostly rubbish after 5-6 years of use. And too often within 5-6 weeks of having been bought and used at home.

          • Tracey 2.1.1.1.2

            Maybe one day you will write something that relates to what the people above were discussing.

      • weka 2.1.2

        “It is beyond most on the rights ability to believe benefits are a vital part of a caring society that has failed the recipients by not providing jobs etc.”

        tc, please don’t fall into the lie that most people that vote on the right support the bene-crushing/bashing meme. I’m not just being pedantic here, this is an important political point. People across the whole political spectrum are capable of compassion. If we start saying that all righties hate benes we serve the agenda of nasty fucks like Farrar, Bennett etc.

        It’s vital that we don’t lump all conservatives into the neoliberal hard right. There have always been people who vote on the right for economic reasons but are socially liberal. Best we not lose sight of them.

        • Tracey 2.1.2.1

          I agree. The labour party did a great job bashing beneficiaries in its last terms as government. I also find that those of the blue collar persuasion, whoever they vote for, can be some of the most bigotted people out there. At least they say it, the white collar bigots learn to say in public the right stuff and leave the revelation of their bigotry to the private dinners.

          Compassion is not about ideology but implementation of ideology can negatively impact the gifting of compassion, imo.

          • phillip ure 2.1.2.1.1

            @..tracey..

            ..the ‘i’m alright jack!’ blue-collar labour voter is a creature ugly in its’ wholesale uncaring…

    • Tracey 2.2

      “Not like all those other ones who are rorting the system.”” and that is precisely what makes this tactic, and it is a deliberate tactic, by national and anyone else toting this “argument”, so insidious.

      If it is someone rorting the system they are

      “the tip of the iceberg”, if someone is not rorting the system they are “a minority”.

      The lackof consistency between the two conclusions exposes it for what it is, but those wielding it as an ‘argument” seem oblivious to how it exposes their own duplicity.

    • Gosman 2.3

      I read the article and comments on that and the vast majority were extremely sympathetic to Ms Wilson’s predicament and also have agreed that for some people the need to prove continued medical conditions is both stressful and a waste of time. It seems to me that this is not good enough for many left wing people. If you don’t agree with a leftist view completely then it is almost worse than if to completely disagree with it. No wonder the left is prone to splintering in to smaller and smaller groups.

      • I presume that among the “extremely sympathetic” comments you included the ones which (a) tried to diagnose her condition based on one blog post, ignoring her own statements about her diagnosis and (b) made wild assumptions about her skills, work experience, and lifestyle, all of which could have been corrected by simply reading her other posts.

        ETA: and don’t forget the “extremely sympathetic” commenter who declared that having debilitating stomach bugs is “fashionable”.

        Did you also think it was “extremely sympathetic” when Paula Bennett brushed off Sarah’s complaints by basically saying “well when people deal with WINZ they’re too crazy to know what’s really going on”?
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/10001705/Bennett-No-changes-at-Work-and-Income

        • Gosman 2.3.1.1

          The only really objectionable comments was by someone called Kea and a number of other commentators were taking him/her to task for the views expressed. A left wing commentator even made reference to the fact the comments were very supportive

      • weka 2.3.2

        “I read the article and comments on that and the vast majority were extremely sympathetic to Ms Wilson’s predicament and also have agreed that for some people the need to prove continued medical conditions is both stressful and a waste of time”

        I’ve read half the comments, and while a few are supportive, most are prejudicial against people with disabilities in various ways. I’m guessing you’re not aware of many of the issues that face people with disabilties Gosman, or you would see those comments for what they are.

        Absence of outright bene-bashing abuse doesn’t mean that the politics are fair or reasonable. It’s interesting to see someone like Farrar attempting to say, oh actually yes some beneficiaries are having a hard time and WINZ aren’t doing their job properly. Interesting because it’s possible he’s had some kind of realisation about his politics, and interesting because he still doesn’t get how his politics put so many ill and disabled people at risk.

        • Gosman 2.3.2.1

          This is why I dislike leftist thinking in NZ. Fair and balanced to you basically means other people have to broadly agree with your position. In essence the left in NZ is the Fox news of political discussion.

          • weka 2.3.2.1.1

            And yet I just disagreed with your assessment of the comments at Kiwiblog and gave my reasons why, and all you can do in response is say that I don’t tolerate disagreement. Irony much?

            • The Al1en 2.3.2.1.1.1

              “Irony much?”

              Real men wear wrinkled clothes with pride

            • Tracey 2.3.2.1.1.2

              remember he doesn’t read his own posts and most of what other people write. I suspect he skim reads quickly to enable him to share his entirely neutral and logical viewpoint with us all.

            • Gosman 2.3.2.1.1.3

              I didn’t state you didn’t tolerate disagreement. I stated that it looks like anyone who disagrees with a narrow view of the world that you have is not able to be regarded as fair and balanced. If you disagree with this then defend your position.

              • Tracey

                Fundamentally Offensive

              • weka

                “I didn’t state you didn’t tolerate disagreement. I stated that it looks like anyone who disagrees with a narrow view of the world that you have is not able to be regarded as fair and balanced. If you disagree with this then defend your position.”

                Nah, you first. Try responding to what I raised and then I’ll reply to that.

                • Gosman

                  Let’s take what you stated then

                  “I’ve read half the comments, and while a few are supportive, most are prejudicial against people with disabilities in various ways. I’m guessing you’re not aware of many of the issues that face people with disabilties Gosman, or you would see those comments for what they are.”

                  You gave no examples of how most comments are prejudicial to people with disabilities. I can only assume that you dislike the fact that someone who doesn’t agree that people on a benefit for a disability should never have to be subject to ongoing checks because that was what most of the commentators were stating – Some people should and some people shouldn’t.

                  • weka

                    No, I don’t believe that at all. Why would you assume that? Not making baseless assumptions about my politics are you?

                    If you are genuinely interested we can look at the range of prejudices. You don’t have to agree of course, but it helps to understand what the basics are.

                    • infused

                      He assumed that because you didn’t explain yourself.

                    • Gosman

                      On what basis do you make the claim that a number of commentators were showing their prejudices of disabled people via their comments then? I’d be interested in getting your perspective on this.

            • Naturesong 2.3.2.1.1.4

              He did take to the time to label you “other” at the start.
              “Leftist Thinking”, seriously, what the fuck is that?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Thinking that derives from (generally speaking) higher IQ (Hodson & Busseri 2012) and and smaller amygdala (Kanai et al 2011).

          • phillip ure 2.3.2.1.2

            no no gossy..kiwiblog is ‘the fox news of nz political discussion’…

        • Murray Olsen 2.3.2.2

          I saw a few comments where they blamed the WINZ workers, which reminds me of the bad apples always turning up in the police. As long as we can blame a minority of the workers, we don’t have to look at the problems inherent in the system. This type of approach is a continuation of right wing punishment of beneficiaries, not any real realisation.

  3. “..5 Ways the Poor Are More Ethical Than the Rich..

    Many wealthy Americans believe that dysfunctional behavior causes poverty.

    Their own success – they would insist – derives from good character and a strict work ethic.

    But they would be missing some of the facts.

    Ample evidence exists to show a correlation between wealth and unethical behavior –

    and between wealth and a lack of empathy for others –

    -and between wealth and unproductiveness..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/5-ways-poor-are-more-ethical-rich

    • Ad 3.1

      Jesus had this covered better a couple of millenia ago.

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        shame so many of his followers are the problem..eh..?

        ..and clearly don’t listen to him..

        ..yoo-hoo..!..bill english..!

        ..english even had his religious-boss..the pope..coming out just before the budget..and ordering him/catholics to end inequality..

        ..english just ignored that order from his spiritual-master…in his budget..

        ..his temporal-masters must strike more fear into him..

        ..eh..?

        ..all hail the banksters..!

        ..’bring me not yr poor..yr huddled-messes!’ preaches english…

        ..in/from his church of the holy ayn rand..

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

          shame so many of his followers are the problem..eh..?

          ..and clearly don’t listen to him..

          They aren’t really His followers, for starters.

          • phillip ure 3.1.1.1.1

            you try telling them that…

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              The Archdruid John Michael Greer has done just that

              On the off chance that any Republican Satanists are reading these lines, though, I’d like to offer a helpful suggestion. The long charade of pretending to be Christian conservatives has no doubt been great fun, and it’s certainly succeeded in getting Satanic ideas widely accepted all through those parts of American society that might have been expected to resist them most forcefully. Only one of the seven deadly sins has gotten by without extravagant praise from so-called Christian conservatives in recent years—it’s hard to glorify an economic system that depends on avarice, gluttony, envy and sloth, and a foreign policy defined by pride and wrath, in any other way—and no doubt they’ll find a way to fit lust in there somewhere one of these days, and finish collecting the whole set.

              http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/a-christmas-speculation.html

  4. cunnliffe is kicking arse on tvone breakfast..

    ..(it’s getting kinda interesting how it is their housing policy that could well win the election for them..

    ..the package elucidated by cunnliffe this morn is both tidy and rational..

    ..especially compared to keys’:..’move right along..!..

    ..there is nothing to see here..!’..)

    • ianmac 4.1

      Strangely last night I watched an interview by Paul Henry with Dr Smith. Lots of friendly banter but then surprisingly the questions were sharper and searching. Dr Smith’s usual bluster was kept in check and challenged. eg the lower cost of building materials is only $3,000. Irrelevant.
      When Paul is on form he is an excellent interviewer even with his best mate Nick. Pity really.
      About 14 minutes in:
      http://www.tv3.co.nz/THE-PAUL-HENRY-SHOW-Monday-May-19-2014/tabid/3692/articleID/99915/MCat/3901/Default.aspx

      • phillip ure 4.1.1

        what that interview shows is that they have absolutely no idea..

        ..and they don’t want to change anything..

        .(this is how they want it..them’s that’s got..just get ever more..)

        ..henrys’ warning to smith that housing is an achilles-heel for national in the election..

        ..was on the money..

        • ianmac 4.1.1.1

          Paul hammered home the point about National not knowing or wanting to know about facts of foreign ownership. ($11million to find out if Charter Schools might work but zilch for house ownership Data.)

          • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1

            and just on charter schools..for a mo’..

            ..a chain of six of them have just gone down the gurgler in britain..

            ..and just before exams..

            ..the ‘brave-experiment’..

            ..eh..?..

      • geoff 4.1.2

        Good link ianmac.

        Interesting to see Paul actually hold Nick Smith’s feet to the fire.

        It was probably said out of fear of National losing, but I thought it was significant that Henry said housing was National’s Achilles heel. I think he’s right.

        • North 4.1.2.1

          Yeah but Pauline Henrietta was no doubt motivated by the fact that Smith is a really unattractive individual……..”Hey, the 80s want their hair back…..” sort of vile bullshit.

          The Nasty Old Queen just loves ‘attractive’ , even if completely vacuous. Like he sees himself really. Sooooo attractive…….sooooo clever. Sooooo entiltled indeed bound to talk any nasty shit. What a mouthy bag ! Sideshow, sweet. Worthy of any modicum of respect ? No !

  5. Gosman 5

    I have a couple of questions for Draco.

    It is relation to his oft repeated theory on how government should use the control of money to manage the economy.

    How would this work in a situation where people have lost faith in the government’s creation of money and use other forms of currency instead?

    How could you implement your proposal in such a place?

    • is this you musing on yr (dreamed of) libertarian island-nation..?

      ..you’d show them..!..eh..?

      ..there’ll be no ‘welfare’ there..eh..?

      ..you’re funny..!

      ..libertarians in general are pretty ‘funny’..

      • vto 5.1.1

        They are indeed very funny phil ure….. check this out for another hoot…

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10062393/Overvalued-houses-could-force-rents-up

        The Property Investors Federation says of the OECD report, which said our houses were way over-valued, “no no no it is not the houses which are over-valued, it is the rents which are too low”.

        Crazy Act Party Pill people. You couldn’t make this shit up …….

        • Will@Welly 5.1.1.1

          vto – that was the one concern, when I heard this report, about housing being over-valued and rents too low. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that part of the reason why the accommodation supplement was extended to all private housing in the first place, when the ratio of the value of housing to actual rental price became imbalanced, and the Government tried to fix it?

    • vto 5.2

      For once you have a partial point gosman. This is the only problem with money being created by a government rather than by the rothschilds, who currently create it.

      Governments are by nature waaayyyy too political and subject to such pressures that the money-creating could be used for ulterior purposes.

      However, this is pretty much the only problem. A solution could be found – something like making changes to such a system very onerous, similar to changing a constitution for example.

      The result however would be that all of that interest that we all pay every single day of every single year of every single decade – interest that gets paid to a tiny 0.1% select few people would instead be retained in our economic system. The benefit is off the planet.

      NZ govt projected to pay $6billion over the next 12 months. That is more than Key’s lot got in asset sales.

      Farm debt at $50billion must pay around a further $4-5billion per year.

      Household debt – don’t know, but I betcha it is a scary number.

      All of that money – out the door it goes every year, paid to the select 0.1% who only print the money anyway. It is the world’s biggest rort. The problem you highlight is teency in comparison and easily solved.

      • phillip ure 5.2.1

        a figure/comparison i find interesting..

        ..is that the amount of money sucked out of the nz economy in repatriated profits..

        ..each and every year..

        ..just about equals our annual deficit..

        ..go figure..!

        ..eh..?

        • Gosman 5.2.1.1

          Link please?

          • phillip ure 5.2.1.1.1

            this is the comment i made back in jan..

            http://whoar.co.nz/2014/commentwhoar-political-thought-for-the-day/

            ..if you wanna prove me wrong..do yr own research…

            ..(if it helps…the figure for both is around $8.4 billion..)

            ..so..once you have proven to yrslf i am correct..

            ..yr next thoughts on this deficit/extracted-profits mirroring..?

            ..what to do about that..?

            ..eh..?

            • Gosman 5.2.1.1.1.1

              You make the claim and then expect me to validate it for you. Not too familar with the concept of burden of proof are you?

              • felix

                I guess he’s familiar with the futility of spending time running around after you though.

              • and you’re the one calling me a liar..

                ..i’ve given you the amount..and the two examples..

                ..you prove me a liar..!

                ..and good luck with that..!

                ..it’s quite a simple theorem..really..eh..?

                • Gosman

                  Where have I called you a liar?

                  I simply don’t have any data to make a call on whether you are telling the truth or not.

                  • f.f.s..!

                    google deficit..!

                    ..google repatriated-profits..!

                    ..join the fucken dots..!

                    ..(as i said..the figure for both is about $8.4 billion..)

                    ..so..what to do about that..?

                    of course..we could claw a chunk of that back by following key/nationals’ lead..(but flipping it..)

                    ..by partially-nationalising the banksters..for starts..

                    ..we the people take a 51% share of those banks/insurance companies/supermarket-chains etc..(and of course the ‘sin’-industries..the booze-pushers..the gambling industry..

                    ..partially-nationalise the lot of them..!

                    ..then of course..51% of the billions they send offshore every year..

                    ..would stay here with us..

                    ..there’s half the problem solved..

                    • Gosman

                      Why do you have a problem providing a link to this if it is so simple to do?

                    • Naturesong

                      Weirdly I’m with Gosman on this.

                      The reason being that he has asserted stuff many many times and been challenged to front up.

                      His argument tends to be not that the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, but that the reader do his research for his since it’s “common knowledge”. And if you don’t do the research for him, you’re lazy.

                      Balance Of Payments, pg. 30: In the red by 8,765 (millions), or 4.1% of GDP.

                      For profits leaving New Zealand, I suspect you’ll have to dig around treasury excel sheets.
                      I could only find the 8.3 billion referenced by CAFCA here

                    • Gosman

                      By the way Zanu-PF has a very similar policy to you in relation to this 51% owenership. They call it indigenisation and the policy has led to the collapse of foreign investment in Zimbabwe and a serious lack of capital.

                      and here’s something for you. It is called a link supporting my point.

                      http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/news/zimsit_economy-chokes-zanu-pf/

                    • vto

                      you are srylands aren’t you gosman.

                      srylands always referenced Zim

                      but whatever anyway .. you both make as much sense. 0 + 0 is still 0

      • Gosman 5.2.2

        My question is how can government create money for productive investments if the people living in the country don’t trust the government to not abuse that ability?

        • vto 5.2.2.1

          My answer is above. Didn’t you read it? Put in place measures similar to those which prohibit changes to very fundamental aspects of a nations structures, such as is with constitutional changes in many many countries.

          Do you think there would be no solution?

          And, what of the benefits I mentioned? Or do you just ignore that?

          • Gosman 5.2.2.1.1

            Not very specific answer that. It would be like me stating I would make capitalism work better by putting in place measures which prohibit changes to the etc etc.

            • vto 5.2.2.1.1.1

              It is entirely specific. Take structures currently in place to safeguard various constitutions around the world and apply to them to government issue of money. You are clearly unfamiliar with those structures and I aint wasting my time educating you.

              Now, your turn – your answer to the benefits that would arise. Unless you have no answer that is …..

              • Gosman

                A brief list of these structures would be helpful. Then how they would be applied to the issuing of money would be useful to understand.

                • vto

                  You can find such a list by google and wiki. Go educate yourself.

                  I note no comment on the benefits of such a system, which made the bulk of my original comment. It is clearly beneficial in the extreme to have all of that interest, which is currently paid out to the teency 0.1% of foreigners overseas, namely the rothschilds et al, remain in our economy in NZ. I thought you held yourself out as some sort of economic guru? Well you are clearly not, if you think it is better to have all that money leave NZ each year rather than stay here.

                  Tro1l

                  Out

                  • Populuxe1

                    Well actually it would be useful to all of us following the thread if you did so – this is a public forum after all

                • vto

                  You can find such a list by google and wiki. Go educate yourself.

                  I note no comment on the benefits of such a system, which made the bulk of my original comment. It is clearly beneficial in the extreme to have all of that interest, which is currently paid out to the teency 0.1% of foreigners overseas, namely the rothschilds et al, remain in our economy in NZ. I thought you held yourself out as some sort of economic guru? Well you are clearly not, if you think it is better to have all that money leave NZ each year rather than stay here.

                  talk about empty-headed ….

                  • Gosman

                    If you mean basic constitutional structures I think you will find they work best when they have very broad set of rules to work with and don’t work very well if they attempt to regulate specific detail. Managing an economy at a micro level (which would be required under the sort of plan you are suggesting) would be far too complex for a broad set of rules and the rules would become cumbersome and restrictive if they were more detailed. In short it would be a recipe for the slow strangulation of the economy in my mind.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Funny how you implicitly trust the Rothschilds, the BIS and the Fed to monopolise the money supply, especially when all they do is feed it to their investment banker mates and big corporations.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The creation of money really only needs one rule:

                      The amount created must be equaled by the amount destroyed.

                      Of course, we don’t get close to that under the present system where the private banks create far more money than they destroy.

        • Tracey 5.2.2.2

          My question to you is how many of the following were due to hard core left governments?

          14th century

          14th century banking crisis (the crash of the Peruzzi and the Bardi family Compagnia dei Bardi in 1345).

          17th century

          Tulip mania (1637)

          18th century

          South Sea Bubble (1720) (UK)
          Mississippi Company (1720) (France)
          Crisis of 1763 - started in Amsterdam, begun by the collapse of Leendert Pieter de Neufville, spread to Germany and Scandinavia
          Crisis of 1772 - started in London and Amsterdam, begun by the collapse of the bankers Neal, James, Fordyce and Down.
          Panic of 1785 - United States
          Panic of 1792 - United States
          Panic of 1796-1797 - Britain and United States

          19th century

          Danish state bankruptcy of 1813
          Post-Napoleonic depression (post 1815)

          Panic of 1819, a U.S. recession with bank failures; culmination of U.S.'s first boom-to-bust economic cycle
          Panic of 1825, a pervasive British recession in which many banks failed, nearly including the Bank of England
          Panic of 1837, a U.S. recession with bank failures, followed by a 5-year depression
          Panic of 1847, started as a collapse of British financial markets associated with the end of the 1840s railway industry boom
          Panic of 1857, a U.S. recession with bank failures
          Panic of 1866, was an international financial downturn that accompanied the failure of Overend, Gurney and Company in London

          Long Depression (1873–1896)
          Panic of 1873, a US recession with bank failures, followed by a four-year depression
          Panic of 1884
          Panic of 1890
          Panic of 1893, a US recession with bank failures
          Australian banking crisis of 1893
          Panic of 1896

          20th century

          Panic of 1901, a U.S. economic recession that started a fight for financial control of the Northern Pacific Railway
          Panic of 1907, a U.S. economic recession with bank failures

          Wall Street Crash of 1929 and Great Depression (1929–1939) the worst depression of modern history

          OPEC oil price shock (1973)
          Secondary banking crisis of 1973–1975 in the UK

          Japanese asset price bubble (1986–2003)

          Bank stock crisis (Israel 1983)
          Black Monday (1987)

          Savings and loan crisis of the 1980s and 1990s in the U.S.
          1991 India economic crisis
          Finnish banking crisis (1990s)
          Swedish banking crisis (1990s)
          1994 economic crisis in Mexico

          1997 Asian financial crisis
          1998 Russian financial crisis
          Argentine economic crisis (1999–2002)

          21st century

          Late-2000s Financial Crisis or the Late-2000s recession, including:
          2000s energy crisis
          Subprime mortgage crisis
          United States housing bubble and United States housing market correction
          2008–2012 Icelandic financial crisis
          2008–2010 Irish banking crisis
          Russian financial crisis of 2008–2009
          Automotive industry crisis of 2008–2010
          European sovereign debt crisis

          • Wonderpup 5.2.2.2.1

            Tulip Mania was a Trotskyite plot to disable the emergent Dutch capitalist system. Any fule kno that.

            • Colonial Viper 5.2.2.2.1.1

              People thought a buck could be made speculating on an asset bubble, and they piled into the market. That makes them market capitalists, mate.

              • The Al1en

                Millions in today’s money were sunk into tulips, especially the one’s with pretty patterns and colour variations on the flowers.
                Shame they didn’t realise at the time they were investing in plant virus’.

          • infused 5.2.2.2.2

            Good to see your copy/paste is working tracey.

          • Gosman 5.2.2.2.3

            All of these crisis did not lead to the collapse of the economic system and actually go to show how Capitalism works by correcting massive market distortions (in other words you can’t beat the market over the long term). This is against the multiple collapses of alternative economic systems such as the failure of Soviet Communism and African Socialism not too mention the on going failures in countries like North Korea.

            • Colonial Viper 5.2.2.2.3.1

              Capitalism CAUSES “massive market distortions” not “corrects” them.

              And as we saw in 2008-2009 the STATE and TAXPAYERS had to save the bloody system and bail out the banksters to the tune of tens of trillions world wide.

              Please pay attention Gossie. Economic attacks by the western power elite have been very effective in bringing down governments previously, but you have noted that the Chinese, the Russians and the South Americans have all learnt their lessons from that very well.

              • Gosman

                The taxpayer didn’t have to bail out the banks. They could have taken the approach for other crises. It would have caused a lot more social harm admittedly but the system would have bounced back as it has always done. This is unlike Socialist alternatives that seem to disappear completely once they face a massive crisis.

                • Tracey

                  Can you post links to the referendums showing where taxpayers made the collective decision to bail out the banks?

                  If the system wasnt going to collapse anyway, as you suggest, how could “a lot more social harm” have happened, cos that would be a failure of the system.

                  • Gosman

                    Social harm is not idicative of a complete collapse just as social good as a result of boom times is not necessary suggestive that the system is on a sustainable path.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Lloyd Blankfein and fellow bankster CEO compatriots were all sudden socialists when they received tens of millions of bonuses from the tax payer’s pocket.

                    • Gosman

                      Technically the vast majority of the bailout was in the form of loans or guarrantees but I will grant you replying of State handouts for survival is a tad hypocritical for the banks.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well I too would like a 0% loan of a few hundred million dollars

                    • Gosman

                      where did you see that they were 0% interest loans. My understanding is that they had interest assoicated with them.

            • Tracey 5.2.2.2.3.2

              you are an idiot. The economic systems didnt collapse in 2007/2008 because taxpayers had to bail out banks. That’s not capitalism working.

              communism didnt collapse the soviet union economic system gosman. People demanded democracy and got an oligarchy instead.

              • Gosman

                Communism failed. That was what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union and allowed the Oligarchs to take over.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Nope. The USSR wasn’t communist – it was state capitalist. Top down hierarchies always fall down because they always become too top heavy due to wealth accumulation by the few and then the use of oppression to maintain that disparity.

                  • Gosman

                    Where was the market mechanism if it was capitalist Draco?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      /facepalm

                      In the markets where you bought things like food? Or perhaps it was in the competitive system where they determined what planes were built?

                      The real big one though was the fact that it was the people at the top that were deciding what was available and who were deciding what the nations resources were used for and not the people via a democratic system. Just the same as we have in the capitalist countries.

                      It is the top down hierarchy that truly defines capitalism.

                    • Gosman

                      That isn’t a the sort if market that a capitalist system would use. The free setting of prices by the market is the critical component of capitalism. You have admitted that the Soviet Union didn’t have that. Ipso facto it was not capitalist.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It is the top down hierarchy that truly defines capitalism.

                      And I didn’t say anything about the free setting of prices.

            • thatguynz 5.2.2.2.3.3

              🙄

          • Ad 5.2.2.2.4

            yes but but but
            – 1848 – all those rabbly poor revolting all over the place, ewww
            – 1916 – nasty idealist Spartacist poor people
            – 1917 – more of those wretched disaffected hijacking Russian ships
            – all those rotten leftie wars of liberation in the entire 20th century in China and Russia and Africa and South East Asia

            Dammit those lefties ain’t wollen-condom-wearing rope-haired tie-died hold-hands-around-the-Pentagon-to-levitate-it peaceniks either.

          • Murray Olsen 5.2.2.2.5

            According to Jamie Whyte and Roger Douglas, all of them, and any economic failure missing since Adam bit the apple, were caused by Marxist intervention in the market. John Key, as a pragmatic centrist, only blames the Marxist left for 50% of those.

      • Ad 5.2.3

        Your view I think supported by the successful operation of Temasek, NZSuper Guardians, and many other big state pension fund managers.

    • bad12 5.3

      Gosman, we know you are Dumb, you have no need to offer up even more proof, the US Government has presided over the ‘production’ of trillions of dollars in the past 7 years and if any society were to as you put it ‘lose faith’ in the currency and start producing other currencies with which to facilitate trading it would have occurred in the ‘land of the free’…

    • Draco T Bastard 5.4

      Surly, it would depend upon why the people have lost faith in the government as you would need to address that. Corruption, making decisions against the will of the people etc etc.

  6. Te Reo Putake 6

    Goedemorgen, standardistas. Some observations from my hols. Firstly, the majority of Scots want independence, but the majority won’t actually vote for it. Economics will beat emotion, unless Braveheart’s on the telly the night before the vote.

    Secondly, the Tories are claiming credit for the end of a recession they prolonged. The ‘conservative recovery’ is the meme they’re pushing. Look for our Tories to copy that line.

    Thirdly, UKIP, the leadership of the premier league, and Jeremy Clarkson are all rotten to the core, but they reflect the values of little Britain. That is, they reflect fear, ignorance and bigotry.

    re:UKIP, they’ll stroll through the European elections, which nobody cares about, but they’ll also bugger up the conservatives in the council elections held the same day, which David Cameron does care about.

    Lastly, it’s 22 degrees at 9.40 in the evening here in den Haag. Hit 27 this arvo. It’s only May, that shouldn’t be happening. Further to the east, Bosnia is being destroyed by unprecedented flooding. Strange days, indeed. It’s almost like the climate’s changing.

    • Ad 6.1

      Great time to be in Scotland – presuming you won’t be able to extend it to the COmmonwealth Games and the whole Glasgow insanity?

      I reckon we are only a really good Enoch Powell-esque speech away here from a UKIP -type surge in NZFirst.

      Hope you get to Berlin – truly amazing.

    • Gosman 6.2

      As way of comparison how is the French economy going considering they didn’t take the cuts to government expenditure approach that the Coalitionm government in the UK took?

  7. karol 7

    Ruth Dyson not seeking a Labour list placement. She’ll stand only for her electorate.

    • Tracey 7.1

      In some ways I hoped she would step down entirely. My family’s experience of her as representative of the Labour party’s bene bashing in their last go at ghovernment revealled her to be very akin to the Nats that so many despise.

      Under her guidance the Ministry sent letters to my family outlining new measures for evaluating one of our members and getting him into the workforce. That’s how they put it. he is physically and mentally disabled by cerebral palsy. Apparently Ruth’s minions came up with a possible cure cos they wanted to re-do his assessment every year… and remove help to what was previously called shltered workshops.

      My family member had worked once in mainstream employment, in ZIP industries. Was very good on hispart of the assembly line, looked after his machine and knew it inside out BUT was too slow. Apart from the bullying and being pushed down stairs by able bodied co-workers, with no action taken by management following complaints, he was first to go when ZIP hit trouble. He was unemployed for years, slipped into depression until getting work at Killmarnock enterprises. The work there gave him somewhere to go, gave him a sense of community and contributing. His benefit went to Killmarnock and he received about $25 per week cash. There was a place for this kind of “employment.”

      They used to do the poppies each year, but then it went to China… China was cheaper than a sheltered workshop…. ask yourselves something about how that is possible.

      So I am only sorry that Ruth is not retiring altogether.

      • phillip ure 7.1.1

        i wish she wd just go…and take a few more of those uncaring/unreconstructed-neo-lib bastards from that clark-govt..

        ..with her..

        ..those who are stalling/blocking the ongoing rejuvenation/re-newing of labour…

        (hint:..rhymes with ‘fuck off!’…)

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2

        They used to do the poppies each year, but then it went to China… China was cheaper than a sheltered workshop…. ask yourselves something about how that is possible.

        Because the financial system is delusional as it fails to take into account actual physical costs.

  8. Awww 8

    Arrogant prick. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10062393/Overvalued-houses-could-force-rents-up

    New Zealand Property Investors Federation executive officer Andrew King said the report would prompt landlords to raise rents. “Rents are actually undervalued and should be higher.”

    The average rent, he said, was $350 a week – at least $40 below what it should be – and tenants should expect increases soon.

    “We’re trying to get them used to the idea . . . and hopefully they’ll be a bit more planned and prepared for those rent increases when they do come.”

    OUT OF WHAT ANDREW?

    • vto 8.1

      Yep, unbelievable. A sign of where their head space is at ….. loops ..

      In Christchurch I hear people say how great it is the returns you can get from rentals. Great great, yeah good money blah bah blah ….

      What these fools don’t appreciate is that this money is being made by duress effectively. It is being made by taking advantage of people’s troubles and bad times. People are not willingly paying these new high rents because they have more money and feel like an upgrade, they are paying them because they have no choice. They are being taken advantage of. It isn’t even the free market as there is no willing buyer and willing seller. It is a simple rort, taking advantage of people when they are down.

      These foolish landlords seem to have forgotten this.

      I predict that when the rental market turns (which it will) there will be no mercy shown to the greedy landlords. They will be chopped down and shown no mercy.

      Christchurch, post-earthquakes…… a true exercise in the more extreme aspects of human nature …

      • Tracey 8.1.1

        I wonder who lives in the three home sin Ilam and fendalton and Bryndwer that Gerry doesn’t live in? And at what rental?

        This is way beyond ignorance and a joke.

        And never forget, it’s not communisim, socialism, community mindedness or marxism that reeks havoc every decade or so on our economies, it’s the much vaunted profit motive system. Who can make the most money wins.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_economic_crises

        • phillip ure 8.1.1.1

          “..I wonder who lives in the three home sin Ilam and fendalton and Bryndwer that Gerry doesn’t live in? And at what rental?..”

          we should actually get to know this..

          ..to see if brownlee is profiteering off of that misery..

          ..(see how much his rents have gone up since the earthquakes/housing-shortage..

          ..and other mp’s who own rental properties in chch too..

          ..no matter from what party..)

          • Adrian 8.1.1.1.1

            I didn’t know that Brownlee had three houses in that area but I did know that he lived in a 5-star hotel for at least a year or more after the quakes ( at our expense of course ).

            • Tracey 8.1.1.1.1.1

              on his pecuniary interests he is listed as owning 4 hours in Ilam, Fendalton and Bryndwer. He has other property which is his holiday home elsewhere.

      • Chooky 8.1.2

        +100 vto

  9. karol 9

    John Key being as clear as his garbled confusion and qualifications. What does he know about GCSB operastions in Afghanistan?
    The Andrea Vance article begins:

    Government spies did not supply information that led to the death of a New Zealander in a drone strike, Prime Minister John Key says.

    But the Government Communications Security Bureau did provide intelligence that was used on other targets, specifically in Afghanistan, he confirmed.

    But later in the article we get this:

    Key said the GCSB had no prior knowledge of the attack.

    Responding to Scahill’s comments, he said: “Certainly, in the way that I interpreted them, they are completely wrong.”

    Scahill also said he had seen “dozens of top secret documents” the United States provided to the GCSB which indicated New Zealand was fully briefed on the drone-strike programme.

    Key did not directly answer whether this was the case.

    “What would be useful would be if he provided the evidence he’s talking about,” he said.

    Key also confirmed that the foreign agency supplied intelligence to the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), a NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan. He wouldn’t detail other countries where this had occurred.

    “They supply that information. They, from time to time, build up information about particular people of interest.

    “And they have supplied that information fully with the knowledge that those people would be pursued … but there is nothing unusual about that.”

    Key has again refused to rule out if more Kiwis were killed in a wave of drone strikes in Yemen.

    “What information I might or might not know, what information I’m prepared to divulge are completely different issues,” he said.

    Asked why it was in the interest of national security to keep any deaths secret, Key replied: “Because I deem it to be that.”

    Key would not say whether he believed Jones’ death was justified.

    So that’s all totally clear then?

    My bold. But then, all of his smoke and mirrors could be just as significant/telling.

    • Tracey 9.1

      Trust me, I don’t know what I’m seeing”

    • ianmac 9.2

      “Key would not say whether he believed Jones’ death was justified.”
      Didn’t Key say initially a few weeks back that the killing of Jones was justified?

    • infused 9.3

      Pretty simple really. Don’t go hang with terrorist groups.

      • karol 9.3.1

        Yes. Good advice for Key.

        NB: powerful states can be terrorists.

        • karol 9.3.1.1

          To clarify, an entity that attacks targets, including civilians, is engaging in terrorism. Gordon Campbell spells it out:

          He [Key] did however confirm that GCSB-supplied information had not been used to target the New Zealand citizen Daryl Jones, killed by a drone strike in Yemen last November. (How Key could be so sure when he claimed not to know the purposes for which ISAF uses the data that we supply, was left unclear.)

          […]
          New Zealanders now know they have been complicit in an assassination-by-drone programme that is known to have killed scores of innocent people, time and again, in countries with which we are not at war. We do not know the criteria for targeting or the degree of care that the US operators are using to identify their targets and to avoid “collateral” killings.

          • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.1.1

            To clarify, an entity that attacks targets, including civilians, is engaging in terrorism

            Raining death out of the sky with no warning, on your village, on your wedding party, sounds like terrorism to me.

            And of course, hitting unarmed civvies who cannot strike back in any way shape or form is not “war” it is a massacre – according to an Israeli Jewish commentator critical of Israel’s use of drone strikes.

      • Pascal's bookie 9.3.2

        Pretty simple really. Don’t be alleged to hang with terrorist groups.

        fify

      • Tracey 9.3.3

        If you’d stopped at the first sentence you would have nicely summed up Key’s responses

  10. karol 10

    NZ Herald headline writer needs to check the articles they are headlining.

    This article has the headline: “Labour and Greens support law change”

    The article begins:

    Labour and Greens have pulled their support for a law change which cracks down on migrant exploitation because of their concern about significant new powers including warrantless searches of migrants’ homes.

    The Opposition parties initially supported the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) but now believe that it will will fail to help migrant workers because the punitive sanctions and lack of protection for abused employees will mean they are too afraid to report abuse.

    • Tracey 10.1

      jeesh, that’s sloppy as hell. Editors too busy writing opinion pieces?

      • karol 10.1.1

        The headline has now been amended.

        • freedom 10.1.1.1

          but not before it was widely shared 🙂
          little by little we can all help to expose the blatantly corrupt political bias of the NZ MSM.

          If you are not pissing off your friends by now, you’re doing it wrong 🙂

  11. Clean_power 11

    Where is Peter George these days? I miss him. Just kidding.

  12. bad12 12

    The Stuff.co budget poll is still alive, this time found in the Taranaki Daily Times, up from the 600 odd respondents last time i looked, 1353 have now cast a vote,

    The 3 categories for voting to ”like” Bills budget now total 44.6%,

    The 2 categories that hoick a big one giving the Budget the thumbs down, 55.5%,

    Peter Jackson is said to be considering a new ‘blockbuster’ titled ”Nightmare on Wing-nut street”…

  13. bad12 13

    One for Rosie from wellingtons Dominion/Post, the Capital and Coast DHP has gone into panic mode over a 5% blow-out in its budget,(no wonder your last hospital visit was a nightmare),

    Having dragged its deficit down from 67 odd million dollars to some 9 million dollars i have to wonder just who is the ”gate-keeper” when it comes to who will be denied services from Capital and Coast DHP, it wouldn’t be the Radiologists contracted to supply services in the DHB’s region would it,

    Staff employed by Capital Coast have been told to consider taking a holiday to ensure the budget blowout is contained…

    • Rosie 13.1

      Yes, heard that on the news this morning bad12……………and thought of your radiologist………….

    • Tracey 13.2

      Shit, if only hospitals didnt have to provide services to ill people, they could be thriving surplus giving somethings.

  14. fisiani 14

    Great news for Wellington that the Hilton will build a 5 star hotel and a 2500 people convention centre. Great news for NZ that a second and third internet fibre cable are about to be confirmed. Further signs of the brighter and brighter future that can be maintained only if we vote for Three More Years

    • karol 14.1

      Is there room in that hotel or convention centre for a few homeless people?

      Where do the cables go to? The Bahamas?

    • vto 14.2

      great news that homes are the most unaffordable in the world

      great news that more rivers are being shat in

      great news that government debt has been increased five-fold

      great news that New Zealanders will be paying $1,500 per every single person this year ($30 per week, almost $5 today) by way of interest on government debt

      but yeah moron, great news that the rich will have a flash hotel to stay in

      fuck you’re onto it

    • ianmac 14.3

      Gee. That would be a bit tough for that lovely Auckland SkyCity Convention Centre Gambling Den that the nice Mr Key organised. Be awful if Wellington trumped Auckland. Any chance of the Nat dirty tricks brigade sabotaging the Wellington plan?

    • the nearer we get to the election..

      ..the more distasteful the idea of ‘three more years’ will seem..

      ..the we-haven’t-really-got-a-fucken-clue-what-to-do about housing..

      ..is just the latest example of what an ideas-free-zone key/national are…

      ..asset-stripping and bubble-building and benificiary-bashing –

      is all these useless bastards know how to do..

    • karol 14.5

      This cable that will connect to Oregon via Hawaii?

      Given that the US harvests the metadata of all communications that go to the US, and plants back doors into US IPs so it can access all metadata?

      And that the US is now accessing all the full content of phone calls in some countires (eg the Bahamas) and is planning to do so for more countries?

      • infused 14.5.1

        So you can keep whining about it, or you can do something about it. Encrypted your and use ssl sites.

        Or, don’t use international sites.

        • felix 14.5.1.1

          Your response to illegal surveillance is pretty much the same to your response to illegal extra-judicial killings.

          Why are you so soft on crime?

          • Tracey 14.5.1.1.1

            surely the very people the agencies say they are after use encryption and ssl sites, so they will have powerful de-encryption stuff, won’t they?d

            • Draco T Bastard 14.5.1.1.1.1

              As far as I know, it would still take until the end of the universe to decrypt a 128 bit encryption algorithm. IMO, this would tend to indicate that the spy agencies aren’t really interested in what the bad guys are saying but they are most interested in what the general populace are saying. It is, after all, the general populace that is a threat to the status quo.

              Note how it wasn’t all that long ago that a secure email service in the US shut down due to the new laws of the US.

              • Tracey

                interesting observation. ..

              • Colonial Viper

                As far as I know, it would still take until the end of the universe to decrypt a 128 bit encryption algorithm.

                They’ve already thought of that. Which is why every commercially available encryption method has been deliberately weakened by the NSA through agreement with corporate software developers.

                For example, most encryption algorithms require a random number generator to produce secure keys. “One of the oldest tricks in the book is to modify the random number generator so it outputs only a tiny subset of all the random numbers it normally should,” says Kuhn – a bit like subtly weighing a die to roll 6 more often than it should.

                This change would mean the software can only produce a much smaller list of secret keys than it should, though the number of keys is still too vast for you to notice the change without looking closely. If you know about the vulnerability, however, you can attempt to crack encrypted messages using only the smaller list of keys. That makes it more feasible to use brute force to crack the encryption – all you need is enough computing power, which of course the NSA and GCHQ have in abundance.

                http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24165-how-nsa-weakens-encryption-to-access-internet-traffic.html#.U3rb0ulZo8E

        • phillip ure 14.5.1.2

          @ infused..and if you do that..

          ..you will attract the interest/attention of the american-spooks..

          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/anonymous-web-nsa-trail-janet-vertesi

          • The Al1en 14.5.1.2.1

            Like I wrote yesterday about trigger words, have a laugh at the spies expense.
            When I call my ma back in Blighty, I nearly always start the conversation with how’s al quaeda, bin laden and the atomic bomb plan going? Knowing that two sets of spooks half a world away will then tune in for the hour or so listening to tales of me mum’s lumbago and her diabetic dog 😆

    • Ad 14.6

      What part did government policy or executive intervention did central government play in the proposed Wellington deal? If none, your point invalid.

      Would you also point out the government policy or intervention in a proposal for a third internet cable. Same applies as above.

      To save us all time, demonstrate how either of these deals would be negatively affected by a Labour government.

    • Tracey 14.7

      So that’s Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington all getting the ONE international convention centre NZ needed…

    • thatguynz 14.8

      🙄 fucktard

      [lprent: Where is your point? Read the policy. ]

    • Skinny 14.9

      Your cheerleading gives us much amusement Fisiani. The capitalist model is a boom and bust cycle. A brighter future looks rosie one month, then a share market crash the next.

      Yours is a big what if, or more likely to be if only.

  15. Way back when i used to enjoy cricket – we’d often set up a social game, pick teams, keep scores and have a beer afterwards. Sadly greed has fouled the game and the gallant defense of the castle by the knight is just a big illusion.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11258122

    • The Al1en 15.1

      I still love cricket, though not the t20 no skill, swing and hope version.
      A shame the game is in the mire. I hark back to the days when all you had to worry about were uncouth Australians dominating the game.

      Cairns, the legend, not any more. Guess he’ll be offering to pay back the libel damages he won in London the other year.

      • marty mars 15.1.1

        it’s just not cricket – makes professional wrestling look sincere – all the cricket stats are buggered – might as well use win/loss from professional boxing or maybe win/place from horsey racing – just meaningless rubbish imo.

        but whenever a grassy meadow or flat beach is there and a stick/bat and a ball – well, we will once again enjoy the game.

        • The Al1en 15.1.1.1

          It so isn’t cricket, but you are correct, swatting a ball coming at your face at a rate of knots will never get old.

          Sometimes the simple solutions work best. Cut the bookies off at the knees and ban sports betting on cricket.

          • Tracey 15.1.1.1.1

            Sports betting IS illegal in India.

            • The Al1en 15.1.1.1.1.1

              True enough, but I think on-line gambling may be the real problem.

              • Tracey

                oh yes, and betting with foreign and black market bookies. I just meant that banning betting wont solve it and may have caused it…

                • The Al1en

                  It’s a right old mess. I suggest we ban all nations from playing the game except England and Scotland.
                  Melt down a deep fried mars bar in batter, stick it in a tupperware bowl and England can always look forward to a 50/50 chance of winning a trophy again.

                  Failing that, blame the Aussies for everything.

      • Tracey 15.1.2

        ah the old adage

        “methinks he doth protest too much”

        Explains his choice to live in Dubai all those years. meet all the players half-way, as it were.

  16. I noticed JK announcing he’s off to visit Obama soon.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/john-key-invited-white-house-5976272

    I suspect TV3 will be sending over a contingent of ‘reporters’ to cover the ‘historic’ event. Shame they can’t save the cash and spend it on new programming. I mean, seriously, Rambo, it was only on Ch 4 a month or two back.
    At least they won’t have to cough for more trips to SA now Mandela has finally passed on.

    • dv 16.1

      Interesting timing.
      Not long before the election.
      Problems over story about drone attacks.

    • Tracey 16.2

      he’s going to get migraines. Imagine the reading he will have to do if he is going to discuss TPP, international issues with Obama…

  17. Of course it’s electioneering at it’s most obvious, the question is whether it’s really such a big deal to the NZ public that our PM is summoned to Washington.
    I’m guessing a selfie with Kevin Spacey would carry more kudos.

    • ffloyd 17.1

      On National radio the leading news is “John key says he WILL NOT be discussing drone strikes”on his please explain summons to White House. “Yip”, he said, “we won’t be bringing up drone strikes” Apparently Obama wants to probe key’s mind or some such thing.

      If key is stupid enough to think that we are stupid enough to believe that discussing drone strikes is not the reason for this sudden summons then he is stupider than I thought. Obama has obviously heard key’s various explanations of what he might know, what he thinks he doesn’t know, what he is sure he doesn’t know, yes,I did know that. No, I did not know that. But I am sure if it did happen I know it would be legal. And so on. Spinning.spinning, spinning.

      All above IMO.

      • The Al1en 17.1.1

        “Apparently Obama wants to probe key’s mind or some such thing.”

        To quote Paul the alien, “How much can I learn from an ass?”

      • mac1 17.1.2

        The alarming thing about Key’s National radio piece discussing Obama and drone strikes is that Key said he was “mostly” (or word of same meaning) happy with the legality of the drone strikes.

        Now that should mean that there are some drone strikes that he acknowledges are extra-legal and wrong, and about which he should be unhappy.

        FFS, if there is one death or injury from an illegal or wrong drone strike (IMO they’re all wrong) as Key himself sees it, then he should be concerned, even talking to Obama, and the media should have been picking him up on this use of language.

      • phillip ure 17.1.3

        “.. Apparently Obama wants to probe key’s mind or some such thing..”

        heh..!…

  18. Rosie 18

    As an aside, where is Queen Of Thorns these days?

    • Chooky 18.1

      yes Rosie ….i miss her and her quirky provocative upbraiding comments …she stirred the pot from her thrown…

    • The Al1en 18.2

      And Rogue, I have a gift for him if he ever shows up again.

      • Chooky 18.2.1

        …and Rhino is keeping a low profile these days …must be busy ….used to enjoy his diatribes ( he is best in a pincer attack)…he has a great facility with language…like our Phil..lol

      • Rosie 18.2.2

        I was fond of Roguey’s presence here – a gentle compassionate intelligent person he is.

        • The Al1en 18.2.2.1

          Cerebral and obscure, a winning combination in my book.

          I had an old original xbox game of Rogue trooper to give him, but I thought I’d lost it.
          It appears not only do I have still have the game in the wardrobe of doom, but an old ex rental xbox console I bought of united video when they flipped them off and a couple of controllers.
          Works on any TV with red/yellow/white inputs, even old stylee through the aerial.

          Gunner’s still got your back, Rogue.

          • Rosie 18.2.2.1.1

            Excellent The AlIen! What a fabulous thought and a fabulous gift 😀

            • The Al1en 18.2.2.1.1.1

              All he has to do is mail me at al1en.org and I’ll post it off. It’s not doing anyone any favours in the cupboard, and even if he has a play and gives it away, it’s all good.

              Just checked it and all the wires and connectors are there, two controllers (though one looks iffy) and all in a neat carry case.
              Has the Rogue trooper game, Halo 1 and 2, Area 51, Shadow ops:Red mercury and Hello Kitty.

              All except Hello Kitty are on my newer, old xbox360, so if you see Rogue, tell him. 😉

    • fender 18.3

      Good question Rosie, haven’t seen her for quite some time 🙁 , and her last blog post was back in Feb. I hope she is ok.

      • Rosie 18.3.1

        ……..And we haven’t had a sing song in a while fender.

        I have an earworm and the feeling and energy in the song somehow reminds me of Judith Collins, her self advancing actions and how it’s all going to implode one day and she “will just reap that fuck up”. While the lyrics don’t refer literally to what we see unfolding, the whole big train wreck that is the National coalition government, there is a sense of impending calamity in the song which feels to me like what the Government will sooner or later come to face. So Jude is there in the song and so is the Government, to my ears at least.

        Suckers to their own cause.

        Chickens coming to roost an’ all…………

        The Wolfgang Press: Sucker

        • fender 18.3.1.1

          Can’t wait to see the back of her Rosie…

          I see you on my tel-e-vision, corrupt politician

          Collins is one evil woman

          • Rosie 18.3.1.1.1

            Oi! Oi! Oi! 😀

          • minarch 18.3.1.1.2

            Tell-lies-vision ?

            • fender 18.3.1.1.2.1

              Yep, freeview channel 22; Nathan Guy 20/5/2014: “Knocking on doors in Waikanae at the weekend everybody told me this is a great budget”. Unless he only knocked on National party members doors I don’t believe him..

              And in her haste to return to work to tell more lies Judith forgot to change out of her dressing gown..

              • Rosie

                Wealthy Waikanae, the same place he parked his stupid promo trailer over the mobility park. He must be too scared to leave the safe confines of the immediate area.

                I bet he won’t be knocking on doors in Kena Kena.

                Lol moment though, the last time I was out on the Kapiti Coast it looked like someone had thrown something squishy and wet at the huge photo of himself on the outside of his electorate office. It had been scrubbed off but had left a stain all over his goofy face. I guess he inspired some strong feelings in someone or some people……

    • QoT 18.4

      Fear not, the sweary godmother watches over you all. But fuck I’ve needed a break from this politics malarkey.

  19. Clemgeopin 19

    JOHN BANK’S TRIAL QUESTION:

    The report on his trial states that after entering the plea that he was not guilty, Banks was given permission to leave the dock and sit behind his counsel in the courtroom.

    I have no particular problem with that procedure if it is the norm, except to query whether consideration of his status was the reason for the permission or is this a common practice that is applied to other less worthy and common defendants too?

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Kim-Dotcom-to-give-evidence-at-Banks-trial-today/tabid/423/articleID/344886/Default.aspx#ixzz32CjKCyqK

    • Tracey 19.1

      I have never been at a criminal trial where the defendant sits near their council and not in the dock. I am NOT saying it doesn’t happen, just that over the years I have witnessed over 50 and never seen it, unless they were representing themselves.

  20. Clean_power 20

    The publicity surrounding Key’s visit to Washington will benefit him a great deal. It seems three more years of him as Prime Minister are unavoidable because unless a miracle happens National appears to be winning hands down.

  21. Rosie 21

    Do y’all know that Backbenchers is back on, on Prime TV at 10.30 pm on Wednesday’s?

    It’s past my bedtime, I have no way of recording it and Prime don’t do “video on demand” but I am viewing it later at a friends house who has a recording. He was the pub during filming last week and said Peter Dunne had a bit of a crack at People’s Power Ohariu. I hope it that bit was filmed! Lol, Dunne – will you be done for come 20th September?

    • Clean_power 21.1

      Backbenches is shit TV and not worth watching. Wallace Chapman is boring, hopeless, and useless.

      • Rosie 21.1.1

        Suit yourself Clean power. Maybe “The Block” is more your thing.

      • fender 21.1.2

        Wallace certainly isn’t Kim Hill but Backbenches is not “shit TV” IMO. I like it, caught it last week and have to admit Trevor Mallard (shock horror) impressed (he seemed more human), as did Jan Logie.

    • felix 21.2

      You can view it online here: http://www.skygo.co.nz/product/641870.aspx

      You need to create a “skygo” account (just an email signup, you don’t need to be a sky subscriber)

      • Rosie 21.2.1

        Excellent! Thank you felix, that is THE tip of the day, much appreciated 😀

  22. dv 22

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/germ-agenda-sucks-money-out-public-education/5/190583

    ‘More than $12m over two years is being transferred to five charter schools (which currently teach a total of just 367 children) and $1.145m into Public-Private Partnerships.

    That is $16348 per pupil per year!!!!!

    • Tracey 22.1

      This is user pays. They use and we pay.

    • Molly 22.2

      My understanding is the usual rate is $7000 per pupil per year, so that is over twice the going rate for public schools.

  23. fisiani 23

    Great news that more houses and consents for houses are being built than ever before. Building costs reduced and RMA changes to allow people to extend their homes will be an election aim. Great news that rivers are cleaner now than they were last year. Great news that debt is finally under control and will never be unending as projected in 2008. Great news that the rich will have a flash hotel to spend the night in and spend thousands in Wellington retail. Great news that Wellington retail will be more profitable and pay higher wages.

  24. greywarbler 24

    Swopped the fizzy lemonade for champagne? You might be getting previous.

  25. Naki man 25

    Minarch do you think breaking into hotel rooms is clever?

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      The device is pretty clever, yes.

      The design of the hotel door lock on the other hand is pretty damn stupid. Handy for government spooks and others who want easy egress to wherever they want in a hotel, a visiting dignitary’s or journalist’s room, etc.

      • The Al1en 25.1.1

        Never one to miss a pun

        “Handy for government spooks and others who want easy egress to wherever they want in a hotel, a visiting dignitary’s or journalist’s room, etc.”

        Key stone card cops

        Edit: Can’t strike out ‘stone’ which ruins the whole thing really. 🙁

    • minarch 25.2

      Im just minimizing my tax burden via my fence….

  26. Colonial Viper 26

    US charges 5 Chinese military offices with cybercrimes…China counters will allegations that US has back-doored thousands of Chinese websites and taken over more than 1M Chinese computers using botnet techniques.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-19/china-publishes-data-claiming-us-worlds-largest-cyber-attacker

    So here’s my main point: let’s not move NZ elections online, OK?

  27. Anne 27

    So, has Labour got some fresh dirt on Collins? This question from Maryan Street to Judith Collins suggests they might have.

    http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/33096

    • ianmac 27.1

      Yes Anne. Wondered about that. The questions were very specific. The answers were denials and a degree of defensiveness. It may be a setting for followup questions which might cause Judith distress. Having committed herself in the House, what happens next (tomorrow?) could be very interesting.

  28. Draco T Bastard 28

    Doubling of Antarctic ice loss revealed by European satellite

    Antarctica is shedding 160 billion tonnes a year of ice into the ocean, twice the amount of a few years ago, according to new satellite observations. The ice loss is adding to the rising sea levels driven by climate change and even east Antarctica is now losing ice.

    It’s getting warmer and wetter.

  29. ScottGN 29

    Watching TV3 news just now you can see why the Nats have put in so much effort to destroy Cunliffe before the election campaign. One on one Cunliffe is going to rip Key a new one.

    • Anne 29.1

      Cunliffe played Key at his own game beautifully in Question Time today and he won the last word. Proof positive Key has met his match.

      • ScottGN 29.1.1

        I look forward to watching QT after Campbell Live. Cunliffe is growing in leaps and bounds it seems to me. He had a pretty good stoush with Mary Wilson on Checkpoint tonight.

  30. john campbell is promising a new spooking-scandal..@ 7…

  31. ianmac 31

    Incredible John Campbell! He has assembled all the details including the lies Key told regarding Ian Fletcher, the relationship with the hugely powerful USA Intelligence. Wow!
    This an exceptional production and watch out for the denials from Key and the dirty tricks brigade who will set out to discredit Campbell.
    A must must watch show!
    Not up online yet!

  32. key has set up our spooks as a branch office of the american spooks…

    ..we have become a chattel-state of america..

    ..in all but name..

    ..key has made them our new overlords..

    ..and sold us out..

    ..i think it must be time to take back our country..

    ..throw key out..and then throw them out..

    ..let them become four-eyes..

  33. Naki man 34

    You have been smoking far to much weed Philip.

    • Paul 34.1

      Watch Campbell Live’s expose today on Key’s actions in 2011.
      Then explain why phil’s statement is wrong.

    • which part have i got wrong..?

      • phillip ure 34.2.1

        the way things stand at the moment..

        ..everytime we see a drone-kill on television..

        ..we can know that this killing is partly our work..

        ..i dunno about you..

        ..but i am not very comfortable with that…

        ..we are mercenary killers..

        ..killers for trade…

        ..killing innocent men women and children..

        ..that fucken sucks..!

        .

    • Colonial Viper 34.3

      We’re an obedient outpost of the US surveillance and security empire. After Snowden, it’s not even a controversial assertion anymore.

  34. Draco T Bastard 35

    It’s Time To Meet Your Neighbours. Online.

    This has to be the best social network I have seen in quite some time. It’s highly relevant, incredibly useful, has a well designed website and is free to use. It is also mobile – download the iOS or Android app for your phone.

    Looks like it could be interesting.

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