Open mike 20/07/2012

Written By: notices and features - Date published: 6:00 am, July 20th, 2012 - 251 comments
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251 comments on “Open mike 20/07/2012 ”

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Carol 1

20 July 2012 at 6:59 am

Ha! This happened to me when I finished paying back my student loan a couple of years back (yes some of us boomers have had student loans in recent times).

I was pissed at the time that the student loan payments didn’t automaticallly stop being paid out of my wages each month, and it was a bit of a palaver to get it stopped, and get the over-payment returned to me.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10820825

More than 100,000 New Zealanders have overpaid a total of $6.4 million on their student loans.

The system has been criticised by a students association, which says graduates are overpaying their loans because the system is too hard to understand.
[…]
After Inland Revenue is satisfied it has received all employer payment reductions, the loan and account information is correct, repayment obligations have been met and the borrower doesn’t intend to start a new loan, a letter is sent to the borrower who must:

* Change their tax code to one that does not include the SL repayment code.

* Tell their employer to stop any extra deductions.

* Cancel any automatic payments set up with a bank to repay a loan.

But, no-one told me that I had to do the above, and just twigged I was still (over)paying the loan when I saw my payslip. It took some phone calls and letters to sort it out.

So IRD gets a little extra cash to play with for a while out of this?
- muzza 1.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:32 am
  
  How does that compare to the amount of money that is not repaid each year, by those who either leave, or for whatever reason dont or cant pay their loans?
  - Uturn 1.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 8:18 am
    
    Might be a bit much to ask Carol to cover that herself, though. More to the point, the idea that education is a profitable business is absurd and will lead to more than just the tears that have already been spilled.
    - fnjckg 1.1.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 9:07 am
      
      “…..well it was a new day yesterday, but it’s an old day now.” Jethro Tull
      master-peace???
      you are a great teacher.
- Chris 1.2
  
  20 July 2012 at 9:12 am
  
  Half of the problem is that voluntary repayment scheme where you get 10% bonus on top of any voluntary repayments. This generally means that the Inland Revenue can often not tell if your student loan is fully repaid or not.
  
  Also in general due to the fact that studylink holds the loan for the first year (I assume this still happens it did when I was there) it can’t really be known if your student loan is fully repaid until your tax for the year is finalised.
  
  It does suck that it can hurt some people but as far as I can see it actually is the simplest system. Having to change your tax code is not a very onerous task.
  
  (edit: changed my second example so it actually made sense)
  - Jackal 1.2.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 11:43 am
    
    Another problem is that there’s not enough jobs for graduates. If students cannot find employment after graduation, how are they expected to repay their loans?
    - Chris 1.2.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 12:15 pm
      
      I agree that is a problem. But I’m not sure that we should be forcing students to pick courses just based on job prospects. While I’m an accountant there is only so many we need (some would reasonably argue that number is 0), however a plan where people are forced to pick degrees that lead directly to jobs you can expect a whole heap more accountants.
      
      There are solid arguments that any tertiary study makes a person far more well rounded and capable for any job, this applies from a BA to BSc.I remember reading studies that said a society with a high number of tertiary trained people is generally better off in pretty much every way (no link sorry). I’ve always thought we should be getting as many people as possible to complete degrees regardless of job prospects.
      
      Finally if they don’t have a job they aren’t expected to repay their loans. You have to earn over $19,800 before any liability kicks in
      - Dv 1.2.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:01 pm
        
        >>Finally if they don’t have a job they aren’t expected to repay their loans. You have to earn over $19,800 before any liability kicks in
        
        Dont they get charged interest?
        
        Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:17 pm
        
        Not ATM but NACTUF are in charge and they may decide to change that.
        
        Chris …
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:19 pm
        
        They may but they haven’t in the 4 years they’ve had so far, so evidence would suggest they won’t
        
        Draco T Bastard …
        
        20 July 2012 at 3:37 pm
        
        First term was about not scaring the horses, second term is about emplacing their actual agenda which may or may not include interest charges on student loans.
        
        Chris …
        
        20 July 2012 at 4:39 pm
        
        Well obviously it may or may not include interest charges. I just don’t think they will and haven’t seen anything which comes close to convincing me otherwise.
        
        Chris 1.2.1.1.1.2
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:17 pm
        
        Only if you are overseas – if you are living in NZ you won’t be charged any interest
      - gareth 1.2.1.1.2
        
        20 July 2012 at 3:51 pm
        
        I do think there needs to be a lot more information on job prospects after course completion. I know large numbers of landscape architects get pumped out every year but with very few positions coming available. That and the graduate salaries are rubbish due to the over supply of candidates. I know 2 personally who earn about as much as a good labourer after two years in the workforce. It’s hardly enough to pay off a large student loan. I’m told the situation is somewhat similar for architecture graduates as well.
    - Vicky32 1.2.1.2
      
      20 July 2012 at 7:07 pm
      
      If students cannot find employment after graduation, how are they expected to repay their loans?
      
      Exactly, that’s my situation as well as that of many, many others…
      - Gareth 1.2.1.2.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 7:21 pm
        
        Thats why you should perhaps treat your student loan more as an investment, it could be better to study something offering better employment prospects than choosing to study for personal interest, I guess it’s a matter of deciding what you want to get out of it and going from there…
        
        Vicky32 1.2.1.2.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:58 pm
        
        it could be better to study something offering better employment prospects
        
        In my case, that’s exactly what I did, but has that helped? Not a bit of it.
        
        Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2.1.2
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:06 am
        
        Or perhaps the problem is that the socio-economic system fails to cater to society.
    - Duncan Brown 1.2.1.3
      
      20 July 2012 at 9:48 pm
      
      No job, no payback, no problem – until someone changes the rules
- Vicky32 1.3
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:02 pm
  
  But, no-one told me that I had to do the above, and just twigged I was still (over)paying the loan when I saw my payslip. It took some phone calls and letters to sort it out.
  
  The same thing happened to my son! So it seems it’s common.
  - Carol 1.3.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 7:12 pm
    
    And clearly it’s been going on for a few years. IRD must know because they have to repay the overpaid amount. So why haven’t they done anything to stop it?
    - McFlock 1.3.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 7:16 pm
      
      The same reason why student allowances took months to “be processed” when they were paid via the institution of study. It’s a few thousand dollars multiplied by possibly tens of thousands of people (some of whom might not realise they’d overpaid for years) multiplied by several months at a time, all earning money in the bank and being used as an asset to offset expenditure.
      
      c.o.c.k.s.
      - Chris 1.3.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:23 am
        
        The Inland Revenue isn’t actually out to rip you off no matter what you believe.
muzza 2

20 July 2012 at 7:36 am

The Syrian opposition: who’s doing the talking?The media have been too passive when it comes to Syrian opposition sources, without scrutinising their backgrounds and their political connections. Time for a closer look …

For people who like to have a bit of thinking in their discussion, here is Charlie Skelton providing some angles and research links to the “big players” in the Middle East.

Warning: not for those who like 30 second articles, to toss around their opinions with uninformed dinner guests!

[lprent: Save the bold and/or capitals for when you actually need it to emphasize a particular phrase. Shouting all over comments just makes me want to trash the comment. ]
- fnjckg 2.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 9:05 am
  
  “shouting”-form
  i not know how to “bold”….yet.
  - marty mars 2.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 9:45 am
    
    kia ora f
    
    This is a good place to start and I found it very useful
    
    http://thestandard.org.nz/faq/
    - fnjckg 2.1.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 10:01 am
      
      muchas gratias; i had deleted smileys too in “sadness” melt so on way again.
      self being taught by all who comment.
      all People learning from all comments.
      (imagine ball of string and “masters” with banks of people scrolling text in, i don’t know, say, at other end of “noodle”)
      hence perspective
      
      Politics much about Rhetoric, bathos, pathos, comedy, tragedy, HYPERBOLE
      perspective
      Perspective
      PERSPECTIVE.
      slip into old perspective sometimes my-self.
      
      IMPORTANT: SEMIOTICS
      effective learning may use “scaffolding” hence Vygotsky
      
      i learn from others; choose teacher wisely.seeeeee PEOPLE
      
      i not “troll”, “shrill”, “angry”, “outraged”.
      sadness and learning: TEACH
      
      re “build a road and the People will come”
lprent 3

20 July 2012 at 8:35 am

Test Message – ok editing without lightbox works
Editing with lightbox works
Ummm. it is displaying the url for editing and has the word editcomment at the top..
Size is a problem
- lprent 3.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 8:43 am
  
  Ok – lets see what is in the HTML…
  That will be more fun.
  Later – heading to work
- lprent 3.2
  
  20 July 2012 at 8:53 am
  
  Ok according to me – you should now be able to trash your own messages and edit albeit in a rather ugly iframe (within the 8 minute timeframe)
  
  Functionally it is a pass. Needs some more layout and display work.
  - Jackal 3.2.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 11:51 am
    
    Hi 1prent, I was just wondering when that silly captcha to post comments is going away? I don’t see why you would need it, being that I’ve never seen any computer generated spam on the Standard. I’m also getting an annoying popup box with More Info and a silly speaker icon on it that does nothing when clicked. The cloud icon gives examples of the meaning of words on the page. What’s that all about?
    - Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 1:20 pm
      
      I think it may be related to the move to Cloudflare.
    - lprent 3.2.1.2
      
      20 July 2012 at 1:37 pm
      
      *grin* From the dashboard. Akismet does every comment entered. Since the site started.
      
      Akismet has protected your site from 105,241 spam comments already.
      There are 2 comments in your spam queue right now.
      
      61,686 spam comments have been automatically discarded by Conditional CAPTCHA.
      
      and Cloudflare (which looks more at where people are reading from) for the last 24 hours
      
      28,225 Page views
      19,024 regular traffic
      6,189 crawlers/bots
      3,012 threats
      
      5,405 unique visitors
      72 unique crawlers
      495 unique threats
      
      or the last 30 days
      
      1,111,982 Page views
      659,060 regular traffic
      302,557 crawlers/bots
      150,365 threats
      
      33,715 unique visitors
      424 unique crawlers
      4,523 unique threats
      
      There is a reason you don’t see it, but we get it. It is discarded before we see it. Obviously with these kinds of numbers, everything has to be automatic. Even so I had 175 spam in the spam queue that I manually cleared earlier in the week – but that was exceptional. Usually we get 10-30 per day.
      
      That being said – which one are you seeing?
      Cloudflare
      
      or
      Akismet
      
      Then I can figure out why you’re hitting it on your IP’s.
      - weka 3.2.1.2.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:46 pm
        
        I’ve been getting the one with the big exclamation mark.
        
        lprent 3.2.1.2.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 1:54 pm
        
        Ok I’ll have a look at what I need to do to tone it’s paranoia down a bit.
        
        First pass, I have set the time before it challenges again to a week. That won’t help people much who have dialup because I think it does it on IP and often whole IP ranges for dialup are in the threats listing.
        
        I have also dropped the paranoia level from medium to low. I’ll track what we’re getting at that level from our existing months baseline.
        
        Jackal …
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:36 pm
        
        I’m getting the Cloudflare one. It’s annoying mainly because the words are sometimes indecipherable. Those numbers are impressive… Looks like The Standard might have overtaken Kiwibog again in the New Zealand blogsite rankings.
        
        lprent …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:19 am
        
        Just depends what you measure and how you measure it. By the measurement we have used for the last 5 years, we’re currently (ie midwinter) at about 325k page views per month. But that is driven by JavaScript on the client page, s it misses anything that doesn’t run JavaScript. It excludes RSS and other mainly machine driven proceses.
        
        That is also the system that kiwiblog and whaleoil used to use. But they have shifted to something different. It shows in the stats at Open Parachute when kiwiblog abruptly doubled in figures over a month. I suspect that they changed their stats engine and are counting RSS or they have jquery picking up pages on a timer.
        
        But I prefer to measure humans, except when looking at server loadings.
      - Vicky32 3.2.1.2.2
        
        20 July 2012 at 7:12 pm
        
        I’ve had the first one 100s of times (though thankfully not today). Someone screeched at me that it’s because I link whore, but it happens even when there’s no link – and all the links I put in are quoted anyway! So, why does it keep happening? I have asked and emailed and – nothing.
        
        QoT 3.2.1.2.2.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:49 pm
        
        Someone screeched at me that it’s because I link whore
        
        Links or it didn’t happen, liar.
        
        lprent 3.2.1.2.2.2
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:29 am
        
        You’re on dial up. The cloudflare traps are all suspicious of all dialup systems (and rightly so). They are extensively used by the cheap end of the spammers.
        
        But I now have my baseline data, so I have dialed back the paranoia and extended the time. It should improve for you.
        
        I have been extremely busy. You can tell – no posts, very few comments, and very limited moderation compared to what is usual over the past 6 months. I did more from m hospital bed last year. But the back of the project has been hammered into a quiesant, friendly, bug constrained, and mallable set of programs. So long as nothing shows up in the certifications I will be back on a more normal routine from here on – at least until the next 2 year project needs my serious attention.
      - Jilly Bee 3.2.1.2.3
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:30 pm
        
        Absolutely, fender and I get the very distinct impression that Councillor Brewer is positioning himself for a run at the Auckland mayoralty next year, which scares me somewhat.
  - Draco T Bastard 3.2.2
    
    20 July 2012 at 1:21 pm
    
    and edit albeit in a rather ugly iframe
    
    Better than not having the frame at all which is what I’ve had for the last few months.
    - lprent 3.2.2.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 1:48 pm
      
      Sorry. I got busy at work and php maintenance was the last thing I was capable of doing with my head full of c++ and structure.
      
      I’d usually do it at work during breaks because my home workspace is crap. Too small and either too hot or at present too cold. But we move back to my apartment next month. That is a place that I know that I can work. I worked from home there for most of 11 years in one job.
    - lprent 3.2.2.2
      
      20 July 2012 at 2:08 pm
      
      The actual problem (if anyone was interested) was a conflict between two different versions of jQuery being used by two different plugins including the affected one or two different versions of LightBox being used by the affected one and another one.
      
      One of the plugins was mine, so I just used the joys of symbolic linking. The other plugin was admin only, so I pulled it and set it aside for replacement hunting. Not sure which of those was the issue. It’d work sometimes depending on what version it loaded and cached on the client side.I had to go through several iterations of browser and server cache clearing tests before I’d get find the damn thing.
      
      I also had to do it on the live server because for some reason neither my workstation or laptop at home would display the problem reliably with an image of both the code and database from the server. Then I had to bypass cloudflare’s caches as well. Changing my etc/hosts to point thestandard.org.nz to direct.thestandard.org.nz allowed me to do that without disrupting anyone else.
debatewatcher 4

20 July 2012 at 8:52 am

Message for Lynn Prentice – thanks so much for restoring the full RSS feeds! Much appreciated. Also I think the mobile version of the site is less sluggish now – did you do anything to it? Thanks again!
- lprent 4.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 8:55 am
  
  It is going through cloudflare as well which probably accounts for it..
fnjckg 5

20 July 2012 at 9:19 am

On! this mornings world-wide MSM, acknowledgement that russia and China in “proxy war with remainder over Syria (all prophesized, over and over and over…) in historical texts from multiple sources, scribes and priests.

Clinton-“russia and China on wrong side of history”, ticker-tape, (yeah Right.)
US and allies appear to be on the “wrong” side.

Go with flow, all roads lead to China
xtasy 6

20 July 2012 at 9:28 am

Hi there –

I thought you guys may just like to be informed of the ‘Education Show and Tell’ event in downtown Auckland tomorrow (01 pm, 21.07.12, outside Britomart), which is published also via this link:

http://www.facebook.com/events/233426863443947/

Again I find NO mention of this on many forums and certainly not in the mainstream media, so apart from those who know of the Facebook page, I fear hardly anybody will be informed, hence resulting again in a feared LOW turnout.

At least it is mentioned here now, so interested students, tutors, public members interested in attending, same as the often so “vague” and ambiguous political party membership, may also be informed and can consider going there tomorrow.

A march up to the National Party Conference at Sky City Casino’s Covention Centre (strange “co-incidence”) is apparently planned by some to follow the event!
Pascal's bookie 7

20 July 2012 at 10:23 am

Back in school there was this stupid list of things that humans did that ‘animals’ didn’t. Can’t remember it all, but language, tool making, planning ahead, that sort of guff.

Idea still floats around when people talk about animals just having ‘instinct’ where humans have our blessed reason and our holy free will, dontchaknow.

Of course, one result of this is that animals have the rights we decide they have and no more, and that it would be stupid to think that an animal could have property, for example.

Read this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/7314415/World-first-Gorillas-take-fight-to-poachers

I think that as a species we’ve taken far too much of these persons’ land. We should leave them be, and more.
- fnjckg 7.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 10:40 am
  
  Arnold Chamove (primatologist) ran a very helpful course in animal behaviour at massey,pn campus. he was an “evolved” man and encouraged exploratory learning;( people explored research from own interest from conceptualistion)
  
  People could learn much from Understanding animal behaviour, learning, and consciousness; way to avoiding ass-umptions, along with “Vital Lies, Simple Truths; the psychology of Self-Deception”-Goleman, or the scrolls of literature on this “subject” (is/not language a marvelous tool?)
  “i (insert People) can change the world with their own two hands”-Ben Harper
  or
  “i (People) hurt (my)self today, like i always do…”NIN or Cash
bad12 8

20 July 2012 at 10:37 am

In todays Granny-Herald there is a link to a web-site where those of us who puff on tobacco products can have our say on such things as the rack-raising of excise taxes upon tobacco products,

It’s an industry sponsored web-site so i wont put up a link to it as it might be seen as advertising, i am tho of the view that just as Grey Power did, the users of tobacco products need to collect their thoughts within an organization that is able to elucidate such into the political process,

With tobacco users numbering 600,000 in New Zealand such a political voice would go some way in protecting the users of the product from measures that can be seen as revenue gathering far above the cost of the use of the product to the community….
Dave Kennedy 9

20 July 2012 at 11:45 am

In today’s Southland Times, S Osborne attempted to support the construction of a private tourist tunnel in Fiordland National Park by claiming the impacts would be minimal. Using the Manapouri Power scheme as an example of minor impacts only displayed the ignorance of the writer.
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/private-tunnel-impacts-on-park.html
joe90 10

20 July 2012 at 11:53 am

Bill McKibben writes: Global Warming’s Terrifying New Math.

Some context: So far, we’ve raised the average temperature of the planet just under 0.8 degrees Celsius, and that has caused far more damage than most scientists expected. (A third of summer sea ice in the Arctic is gone, the oceans are 30 percent more acidic, and since warm air holds more water vapor than cold, the atmosphere over the oceans is a shocking five percent wetter, loading the dice for devastating floods.)
fnjckg 11

20 July 2012 at 1:23 pm

anyWay, semiotics-Signals- the way
in all nature, -Signals-
organism adapts to signals; writ LARGE societies adapt to signals
hence
the importance of signals

(no inter-mine-able, epistol-airy “novel”, fore that is the way of the scribes.-J

and then
machine designed to respond to signals too-eg, governor on internal combustion engines.
however governor is “set” within limits by human Be-ing to be helpful to human.

send signal to “setters” by People ie, to the left as we warm up.

Great machine this, off into the “ball of string”
(imagine “watchers” around “sphere”)

“To The Left, To The Left i say…..”
fnjckg 12

20 July 2012 at 1:43 pm

last post;
signal value
not
close vice
fender 13

20 July 2012 at 1:53 pm

Must only be a matter of time until Paula Bennett gets fired. If WINZ staff can be sacked for accessing confidential information then Bennett HAS to be fired for doing the same and then releasing the information to the public.

Oh wait, it’s do as I say not as I do, silly me.
Stephen Doyle 14

20 July 2012 at 2:39 pm

I don’t know where else to be grumpy. When will central government let the elected Mayor of Auckland get on with his job without interference. All he wants to do is make Auckland actually work.
- Draco T Bastard 14.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 3:46 pm
  
  Under this government? When Aucklanders elect the mayor that this government wants us to elect.
  - Stephen Doyle 14.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 3:57 pm
    
    This or any govt scared of a powerful Auckland?
    - fender 14.1.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 7:42 pm
      
      This govt. would be scared of a powerful Auck. if their mates were not the ones weilding the power. Imagine the damage Banks could have done if Len hadn’t won.
      - Jilly Bee 14.1.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:34 pm
        
        Agree with you fender and I suspect Councillor Brewer is making a very loud pitch to run for the Auckland mayoralty next year which I find pretty scary.
        
        muzza 14.1.1.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:57 pm
        
        That would be interesting, Brewer is a nasty piece of work, but a lighweight.
        
        If he decided to have a go, it would almost be a signal that anyone should get amongst it.
        
        Brewer is not popular outside of Remuera.
    - Chris 14.1.1.2
      
      21 July 2012 at 5:25 am
      
      Is your version of a powerful Auckland just one who can levy tolls or petrol taxes? Is that all it takes to make it powerful?
      - fender 14.1.1.2.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:40 pm
        
        Auckland is powerful.
        
        Tolls and petrol taxes are unpopular with many and does seem unimaginative as a way to gather revenue for roading and public transport projects, but it gets the discussion started and central govt to pay attention.
        
        This governments ideas are likely to begin and end with Auck selling PUBLIC ASSETS to their rich buddies.
        
        If Banks had won mayoralty half of Auck assets would probably belong to a few rich opportunists by now, as per Keys instructions from the debunked neo-liberal bible/theft manual.
Morrissey 15

20 July 2012 at 4:52 pm

http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang

Women question the unusual zeal in pursuing Julian Assange for rape allegations
Letters, Guardian, 9 December 2010

Many women in both Sweden and Britain will wonder at the unusual zeal with which Julian Assange is being pursued for rape allegations (Report, 8 December). Women in Sweden don’t fare better than we do in Britain when it comes to rape. Though Sweden has the highest per capita number of reported rapes in Europe and these have quadrupled in the last 20 years, conviction rates have decreased. On 23 April 2010 Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs-Posten that “up to 90% of all reported rapes never get to court. In 2006 six people were convicted of rape though almost 4,000 people were reported”. They endorsed Amnesty International’s call for an independent inquiry to examine the rape cases that had been closed and the quality of the original investigations.

Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine. For two years we have been supporting a woman who suffered rape and domestic violence from a man previously convicted after attempting to murder an ex-partner and her children – he was granted bail while police investigated.

There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

Katrin Axelsson
Women Against Rape

http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang
- McFlock 15.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 5:10 pm
  
  Bail is considered in relation to flight risk. Given that he’s now fled the jurisdictions of two sovereign nations, I’m not sure they went far enough.
  
  And of course it’s not really going to help the reporting, prosecution and conviction rates if prominent people are seen to swan away with no trouble. even after multiple allegations of separate offences.
  - Colonial Viper 15.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 7:19 pm
    
    Bail is considered in relation to flight risk. Given that he’s now fled the jurisdictions of two sovereign nations, I’m not sure they went far enough.
    
    Which two sovereign nations did he flee from while under arrest?
    - McFlock 15.1.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 8:05 pm
      
      Nice insertion of words I never used, specifically “arrest”.
      
      He skipped Sweden and his arranged interview there.
      He went beyond the reach of the UK police when he lost his appeal – although I note on further reading that embassies aren’t technically the sovereign territory of the represented state. It’s just that the cops aren’t allowed in.
      
      So you get technical points for that, I should rephrase to “fled the reach of the police forces of two sovereign nations”. My mistake.
      
      Of course, the authorities wouldn’t have had to deal with this if he’d turned up to his interview in Sweden. You never know, he might not have been arrested for rape etc.
      - Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:27 pm
        
        You never know, he might not have been arrested for rape etc.
        
        And according to the letter printed in the Guardian, had he been arrested in Sweden there was still a 99.85% chance, on average, of being found innocent.
        
        Which is irrelevant to Assange, since his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US.
        
        McFlock 15.1.1.1.1.1
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:32 pm
        
        “his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US”
        
        Yeah, right.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 8:52 pm
        
        Hey now, McFlock, Sweden is, like, a known pawn of the United States. It’s the only explanation, because people with pretty haircuts like Julian Assange are incapable of raping people, even when their own lawyers pretty much admit they did.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:20 pm
        
        If Assange was just one of many, many foreigners the Swedish routinely pursued over this sort of charge … then this would be likewise a routine matter.
        
        But we know that the circumstances and nature of these extradition proceedings are for all practical purposes … unprecedented. Logically the motives here have nothing to do with the sexual allegations made against him, and everything to do with derailing Wikeileaks.
        
        I thought you of all people would have understood how this ‘derailing’ thing works.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:24 pm
        
        RL, here’s the problem: Assange’s own lawyers have admitted to versions of events which are consistent with most people’s understanding of the term “rape”, and certainly with Swedish law.
        
        Further, Assange’s own defenders have consistently abused the complainants, including leaking their personal information online and declaring that the whole thing is a CIA plot.
        
        At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).
        
        If Wikileaks is so feeble it cannot survive the fall of one figurehead … well, then fuck Wikileaks, frankly.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:38 pm
        
        Yes. And if there was not the real world certainty that extradition to Sweden meant extradition to the USA (and the Swedish prosecutors have said nothing about ruling this out) … then plausibly Assange would be best advised to return to Sweden and face the Courts. That’s another problem is it not?
        
        And while I have not followed the details at all; there appears a considerable range of opinions around exactly how serious these charges are and how probable a conviction would be. Lot’s of agenda’s at work here and I’m not sure whose interpretation is credible. If any.
        
        And in the absence of a proper trial it is all opinion at this stage…. but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:43 pm
        
        but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.
        
        I’ve determined already that he’s a rapist because his own lawyers said so.
        http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange
        
        But please, explain how pinning a woman to a bed while she’s trying to reach for a condom is totally cool and not “nonconsensual sex” or something.
        
        Thanks for truly outing your misogyny, by the way. I just hope you do the same favour for any women you come into real life contact with.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:05 pm
        
        Ah give up on the predictable ‘misogyny’ crap QoT. That’s a lazy, sleazy tactic used by ideologues of all stripes.
        
        There has not yet been a trial, nor a conviction. Therefore Assange is NOT yet a rapist. He MAY be one, and I never ruled that out. It is the job of the Courts to hear all the evidence from both sides and reach a decision. However very imperfect and biased this process is … it’s way better than ideological lynch-mobbing.
        
        As I made it clear it would be best if Assange went to Sweden and faced trial. Unfortunately there are as is obvious by the wider context beyond these charges … real reasons why he should be reluctant to go there.
        
        Mission accomplished … liberal wikileaks support beautifully and permanently wedged.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:08 pm
        
        of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.
        
        Sorry, RL, these are kind of your exact words, right?
        
        And you are aware that the good old “man-hating feminist” trope is kind of … misogynist, right?
        
        Let me know if you need help with the math.
        
        Also, since I am, you will be surprised to find out, not a court of law, I am quite happy to call Assange a rapist. Because he nonconsensually penetrated multiple people with his penis, and his lawyers even said so.
        
        So, that “Wikileaks is too feeble to survive the fall of one figurehead” comment I made was right on the money, I see. There’s a wedge issue for you.
        
        Jackal …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:26 pm
        
        QoT
        
        Further, Assange’s own defenders have consistently abused the complainants, including leaking their personal information online and declaring that the whole thing is a CIA plot.
        
        There are links between the prosecution and the CIA. These are not allegations, they are verifiable facts. Any high profile case has a degree of investigation into the backgrounds of each party. I fail to see how somebodies hairstyle or the usual machinations of such cases is any sign of guilt.
        
        At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).
        
        Made up your mind already? You’re correct that rape victims are often treated badly, but by the same token this is no different to how the establishment destroys the credibility of anybody it opposes. It’s not a precedent, it’s been happening for ages. Denouncing people for their political views is an American institution.
        
        If Wikileaks is so feeble it cannot survive the fall of one figurehead … well, then fuck Wikileaks, frankly.
        
        Fuck Wikileaks… Surely you jest? Wikileaks has been a great tool for informing the public about the underhanded tactics of the establishment by imparting information that we would not normally be aware of. To dismiss that good work just because of accusations made against one person seems rather unhinged! They’re completely separate issues.
        
        Here’s what Crikey reported a few months back:
        
        In summary (a detailed account is below), the near identikit police record/accusation/Amnesty report come amidst a police investigation characterised by an investigation begun peremptorily by an untrained prosecutor, dismissed the next day by a senior prosecutor, reinstated by a prosecutor known for advocating the expansion of the “s-x crimes” remit, following the involvement of former government ministers as legal counsel, the destruction and alternation of evidence by Anna Ardin, allegations of police coercion by the other complainant (Sofia Wilen), the close involvement of a police officer, Irmeli Krans, who was a political associate of Ardin’s in the initial investigation, her public commenting on the process (during prosecution), and a reprimand and investigation by the police board, and conflicting evidence of collusion between the complainants and others in subsequent witness statements to the police.
        
        The correspondence between the Amnesty report and the accusation against Assange can only increase speculation that the pursuit of Assange has become politically motivated as part of the fraught politics of s-x crime in Sweden. The country has a respectable level of s-x crime prosecution — around 4.7 convictions per 100,000 people, nearly triple the Europe average of 1.8, and far in excess of some countries (Portugal’s rate is 0.5, for example).
        
        However, Sweden also has one of the highest rates of inquiry about and report of s-x crimes — the rate of s-x crime reporting has gone up more than 500% since 1975. In particular, it leapt sharply when a new s-x crimes bill was introduced in 2005-6 — inaugurated by a dying Social Democrat administration, brought in by the new Moderate Party government.
        
        The politics of the case aside, the question really comes down to force. Witness SW did not articulate that she wanted a condom used, and was the description she gave a part of normal sexual activity, that was consensual? Did Assange know she was reaching for a condom, because it is mere speculation that he was stopping her from acquiring protection?
        
        I find it strange that you’re accusing anybody who questions the motives behind this case as misogynists. It’s somewhat detrimental to woman who make legitimate rape complaints that somebody is accused of sexism because they might defend against potentially false rape accusations.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:27 pm
        
        There has not yet been a trial, nor a conviction. Therefore Assange is NOT yet a rapist.
        
        RL, I’m assuming you’re not denying the existence of the many women who get raped, by men, and never go to the police let alone anywhere near a court. The rapes happened, and each time some man IS a rapist, irrespective of the presence of a trial or not.
        
        So if Assange raped, then he is already a rapist, and a court simply determines whether he fits a legal definition that allows the state to take action. Lack of that doesn’t make him innocent or ‘not’ a rapist if he has already raped. The courts don’t determine if someone is a rapist, the rapist does that.
        
        This may sound like quibbling over semantics but for the massive black hole in the middle of our world that is rape culture. Please don’t make that worse, and please choose your words with more care.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:30 pm
        
        Nah, weka, it’s all about the courts. And therefore Harvey and Jeanette Crewe weren’t “murdered” because no court has found anyone guilty of killing them. *eyeroll*
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:30 pm
        
        All RL is doing is asking people not to presume guilt before a trial.
        
        rosy …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:32 pm
        
        “but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.”
        
        RL I think you’ve missed the memo…
        
        A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?
        
        Rapists do.
        
        They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.
        
        Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better.
        
        And, btw Assange is the one whose made this all about him. He did a good thing with wikileaks, on the back of someone else – Bradley Manning. But he’s also done some very stupid and possibly illegal things that he needed to account for. He needs to give-up on pretending to be a superhero, he doesn’t have the character for it.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:40 pm
        
        At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).
        
        Made up your mind already? You’re correct that rape victims are often treated badly, but by the same token this is no different to how the establishment destroys the credibility of anybody it opposes. It’s not a precedent, it’s been happening for ages. Denouncing people for their political views is an American institution.
        
        I’m not sure which QoT was specifically referring to, but IMO it’s the actions of the left that are reinforcing rape culture here as much as anything. Yes the establishment takes down its enemies, but women get that AND undermined by their own allies.
        
        This is old, tiresome stuff from the left. Issues that affect women are supported up to the point that they interrupt the (white) male agenda on the left, and then they get dumped, because apparently it’s too complex.
        
        What is so hard about acknowledging Assange for what he did for wikileaks AND acknowledging that he is (probably) a rapist?
        
        I find it strange that you’re accusing anybody who questions the motives behind this case as misogynists. It’s somewhat detrimental to woman who make legitimate rape complaints that somebody is accused of sexism because they might defend against potentially false rape accusations.
        
        QoT called out RL on misogyny, quite specifically in response to something he did in this thread – he used a misogynist trope as a way of undermining her argument. It was bullshit, and I would have called him on it too.
        
        I don’t see QoT calling anyone who questions the motives behind this case misogynist. I see her calling anyone who displays misogyny a misogynist.
        
        It’s time to up your game boys. If you want to be allies with women against rape, you have to do better than this.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:47 pm
        
        Rosy,
        
        Well I was responding to QoT’s repeated statements that Assange is a rapist. In the absence of a conviction I was asking out loud whether that was just because he was a male.
        
        Maybe growing up in the 70’s I was hit over the head with the ‘all men are rapists’ dogma once too often. \
        
        Absolutely there are allegations that should be tested in Court. But we all know that this is a politically motivated case and that is the real problem you cannot ignore either.
        
        weka
        
        It was bullshit, and I would have called him on it too.
        
        Now call QoT out on determining Assange is a rapist (that means convicted of rape) before he has been tried. That’s undermining too.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:48 pm
        
        All RL is doing is asking people not to presume guilt before a trial.
        
        CV, that’s not all RL is doing, but did you read the link above that quotes Assange’s legal team? Here it is again, with the actual words. I’m not prejudging the outcome of a trial. I’m saying that if the descriptions from his legal team are true, then Assange is a rapist.
        
        Assange’s lawyer described the sexual encounters with the two witnesses as follows, based on their statements (emphasis mine):
        [Witness AA] The appellant [Assange]’s physical advances were initially welcomed but then it felt awkward since he was “rough and impatient” … They lay down in bed. AA was lying on her back and Assange was on top of her … AA felt that Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina directly, which she did not want since he was not wearing a condom … She did not articulate this. Instead she therefore tried to turn her hips and squeeze her legs together in order to avoid a penetration … AA tried several times to reach for a condom, which Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without using a condom. AA says that she felt about to cry since she was held down and could not reach a condom and felt this could end badly.
        
        [Witness SW] They fell asleep and she woke up by his penetrating her. She immediately asked if he was wearing anything. He answered: “You.” She said: “You better not have HIV.” He said: “Of course not.” She may have been upset, but she clearly consented to its [the sexual encounter’s] continuation and that is a central consideration.
        
        http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange
        
        McFlock …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:51 pm
        
        And if there was not the real world certainty that extradition to Sweden meant extradition to the USA
        
        Why do you insist on believing Assange should be treated as innocent and Sweden should be treated as guilty?
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:53 pm
        
        These are witness statements that his lawyers have put into the public domain weka. Are you saying that Assange’s lawyers are accepting these statements uncontested?
        
        Or that Assange has pleaded guilty?
        
        weka
        
        RL, I’m assuming you’re not denying the existence of the many women who get raped, by men, and never go to the police let alone anywhere near a court. The rapes happened, and each time some man IS a rapist, irrespective of the presence of a trial or not.
        
        But in the absence of a trial all you have is allegations. If all you have is allegations then every act of sex is potentially a rape. And who amongst us has not had sex that afterwards we regretted … at least a little bit?
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:53 pm
        
        Absolutely there are allegations that should be tested in Court. But we all know that this is a politically motivated case and that is the real problem you cannot ignore either.
        
        Not quite RL. Yes, there are obvious political motivations around Assange being targeted for his involvement in wikileaks. But can you also acknowledge that there are political motivations from the left, to undermine the intentions and credibility of the women who have made accusations against Assange, because they don’t want Assange to be undermined? Including in this thread. And that those political motivations are supporting rape culture?
        
        As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.
        
        Jackal …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:59 pm
        
        rosy
        
        And, btw Assange is the one whose made this all about him.
        
        What complete rubbish! The initial claims were dismissed… Despite this, the details were illegally leaked and then widely published. The case was then reopened. Do you really think Assange chose that?
        
        weka
        
        I’m not sure which QoT was specifically referring to, but IMO it’s the actions of the left that are reinforcing rape culture here as much as anything.
        
        I fail to see where the left is “reinforcing rape culture,” by questioning the motives behind the case? In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:01 pm
        
        As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.
        
        False dichotomy.
        
        Wikileaks set itself against the ‘death cult’ of global hegemony and empire; of which ‘rape culture’ is an integral component. The two cannot be separated out; they are aspects of the same beast.
        
        Again the whole matter would disappear overnight if the Swedes gave an assurance around no extradition to the USA.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:11 pm
        
        These are witness statements that his lawyers have put into the public domain weka. Are you saying that Assange’s lawyers are accepting these statements uncontested?
        
        Or that Assange has pleaded guilty?
        
        RL, as far as I can tell Assange is not disupting the general story but is instead contesting interpretation. And his lawyers are arguing technicalities to do with differences in the legal systems in the UK and Sweden.
        
        You can see more here
        
        http://jezebel.com/5820468/julian-assange-back-in-court-now-with-less-victim+blaming
        
        This has been heralded in some quarters today as a tacit concession from Assange’s camp that the women weren’t lying about the events. But they’ve never officially said the women were — early on in press statements, one lawyer, Mark Stephens, painted them as honeytraps, something there’s never been any evidence of and from which Assange backtracked, saying his lawyer claimed he’d been misquoted
        
        rosy …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:24 pm
        
        Do you really think Assange chose that?
        He chose not return to Sweden to answer questions from Swedish investigators. That is the crux of the matter for me – not the public arguing about whether he raped, or whether he was set up. And in making that choice he set off a circus that detracted from Wikileaks and Bradley Manning.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:28 pm
        
        @ weka
        
        But then the same link goes on to say:
        
        “After a while Assange asked what AA was doing and why she was squeezing her legs together. AA told him that she wanted him to put a condom on before he entered her. Assange let go of AA’s arms and put on a condom which AA found.”
        
        So this part were he stops and puts on a condom, is this rape too? And why did you not quote the whole passage?
        
        @rosy
        
        That is the crux of the matter for me – not whether he raped, not whether he was set up
        
        Easy for you to say. You don’t face the plausible outcome of a US military court sentencing you to life in some hell-hole. Or death.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:31 pm
        
        I fail to see where the left is “reinforcing rape culture,” by questioning the motives behind the case? In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.
        
        Jackel, I accept you find rape abhorrent and you are on the left. But what is missing from your comment is that you understand what rape culture is, how it is created and sustained and that you find that abhorrent as well. If you don’t know those things then it doesn’t surprise me that you fail to see how the left is reinforcing rape culture here.
        
        Would you be willing to consider that there are people in this thread who have a very good understanding, analysis and working knowledge of what rape culture is, and that they know a great deal more about this than you do? If so, then there could probably be some useful dialogue and it might help to elucidate the problems in the Assange case.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:34 pm
        
        As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.
        False dichotomy.
        
        Oh I agree RL. It’s just that it’s the responses of some on the left, yourself included, that are creating that false dichotomy.
        
        rosy …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:53 pm
        
        “Easy for you to say. You don’t face the plausible outcome of a US military court sentencing you to life in some hell-hole. Or death.”
        
        I’ll just go with Pascal’s bookie’s comment. I don’t feel the need to reword something that says it all imo.
        
        Edit: I’d change ‘raped’ to possibly raped… that’s all. If he answered the questions, we’d know.
        
        Jackal …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:12 am
        
        weka
        
        If you don’t know those things then it doesn’t surprise me that you fail to see how the left is reinforcing rape culture here.
        
        I’m failing to see that the left is reinforcing rape culture on this thread because it’s a figment of your imagination weka. Questioning the motive behind the case does not reinforce the disgusting act of rape. It is somewhat shameful to accuse people of supporting such a barbaric act just because they are open to the possibility that the claims against Assange are false and based on political motives.
        
        Would you be willing to consider that there are people in this thread who have a very good understanding, analysis and working knowledge of what rape culture is, and that they know a great deal more about this than you do?
        
        I’m sure there are people who have more knowledge, however this does not discount my opinion in the least. In fact it seems rather arrogant to claim that I’m ignorant in comparison, just because you don’t agree with my argument.
        
        If so, then there could probably be some useful dialogue and it might help to elucidate the problems in the Assange case.
        
        The “problems with the Assange case” have been well documented… Which ones do you want to discuss exactly?
        
        Assange is not disupting the general story but is instead contesting interpretation. And his lawyers are arguing technicalities to do with differences in the legal systems in the UK and Sweden.
        
        Interesting that you think Assange is guilty already, and then make up false claims about what his lawyers have been saying… As usual law does come down to interpretation. It is the correct interpretation of law that is important. The actual law in this regard is the Swedish chapter, which states:
        
        A person who by assault or otherwise by violence or by threat of a criminal act forces another person to have sexual intercourse or to undertake or endure another sexual act that, having regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse, shall be sentenced for rape to imprisonment for at least two and at most six years.
        
        This shall also apply if a person engages with another person in sexual intercourse or in a sexual act which under the first paragraph is comparable to sexual intercourse by improperly exploiting that the person, due to unconsciousness, sleep, intoxication or other drug influence, illness, physical injury or mental disturbance, or otherwise in view of the circumstances in general, is in a helpless state.
        
        If, in view of the circumstances associated with the crime, a crime provided for in the first or second paragraph is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall be imposed for rape. If a crime provided for in the first or second paragraph is considered gross, a sentence to imprisonment for at least four and at most ten years shall be imposed for gross rape.
        
        In assessing whether the crime is gross, special consideration shall be given to whether the violence or threat was of a particularly serious nature or whether more than one person assaulted the victim or in any other way took part in the assault or whether the perpetrator having regard to the method used or otherwise exhibited particular ruthlessness or brutality.
        
        I’m a little confused with QoT’s link, being that the original quote was from one witness and not two. The question of law arises (as far as the witness statement is concerned) because Assange apparently tried to stop her accessing a condom, which RedLogix has provided further information on. It also arrises because it’s alleged Assange had sex while she was asleep.
        
        There is no question concerning violence in this case, and therefore Assange is not guilty of rape as outlined in the first paragraph. Without information concerning the initial consensual sexual intercourse, and when exactly this ended, it’s hard to say whether Assange is guilty of rape as outlined in the second paragraph.
        
        The judge would need to give consideration to the circumstances in general, and it’s dependent on the agreement to have intercourse. You can claim he’s a rapist if you like, but without further corroborative information I don’t to see how such a claim can be made.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:38 pm
        
        “his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US”
        
        Yeah, right.
        
        Scenario 1: Instead of spending 5 years in a comfy Swedish jail when found guilty of rape, a jail where he is likely to have good meals, regular vistors and practically full internet access, Assange chooses lifetime asylum and exile in Ecuador.
        
        Scenario 2: Instead of being extradited to and tried for capital crimes in the US, spending many years in US federal (or even military – perhaps even Guantanamo) prisons on appeal, facing the death penalty by lethal injection the entire way, Assange chooses lifetime asylum and exile in Ecuador.
        
        You do the fucking math.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:56 pm
        
        But please, explain how pinning a woman to a bed while she’s trying to reach for a condom is totally cool and not “nonconsensual sex” or something.
        
        That’s what he did, hey? You know that how? You make it sound so violent and hostile, which if it was, raises the question of why she was so happy and joyfully boasting to all and sundry that he was the latest notch on her bed-post… until she found out about the other woman!
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 9:59 pm
        
        You have previously been provided with plenty of links, Vicky. You could easily Google Assange’s lawyer’s own statements. But clearly you get some kind of warm fuzzies from abusing assault victims and sucking up to rape apologists. I shall not bother you with any more inconvenient facts, especially since you continue to never, ever back up your own statements with evidence.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:07 pm
        
        never, ever back up your own statements with evidence
        
        And yet, and yet when I do, I am link-whoring! 😀
        Oh, you poor stupid cow. Your link to the Zionist lawyer was hardly credible, and knowing that, I skipped your latest one. Please however, feel free to point me to where Assange’s own lawyer says that he ” pinned a woman to a bed while she tried to reach for a condom”!
        I know it would hurt like an acid bath for you to admit even the faintest possibility of this – but newsflash. Sometimes even women tell lies! 😀 😀 😀
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:09 pm
        
        If you insist, Vicky. This one last time I’ll do your homework for you.
        http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange
        
        Personally I’d be horribly embarrassed to be caught parrotting other people’s bullshit in a public forum, but you go your own way.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:12 pm
        
        The other question of course, is “is he bigger than his cause?”
        
        I’m genuuinely confused as to the lengths people go to to defend Assange.
        
        He is not wikileaks.
        
        He is not wikileaks.
        
        He is not wikileaks.
        
        But he might just kill it.
        
        He might end up tarnishing the idea so badly that it doesn’t get a serious try again.
        
        For god’s sake.
        
        If you are going to take on what wikileaks took on, you have to be serious about it. It’s either important, or it’s a hobby.
        
        His admitted behaviour was appalling, and indefensible.
        
        Crying about how the US want to get him and lock him up for ever or maybe kill him so therefore blah blah blah, is not a credible defence. It’s a damnation of the guy. The people wikileaks went up aginst were always going to want to get him. And look what he fucking did! Acted like a celebrity with a rockstyle james bond fetish, and raped someone. Not the best strategic play there.
        
        Fuckwit as far as I’m concerned.
        
        He should hand himself in. If it comes to a US trial, then there will be all sorts of arguments to made on a global stage. Those arguments would be a lot more effective for his cause if he was a sympathetic character.
        
        But, look what he fucking did.
        
        And you’ll note that none of the abpve is a defence of the US or a suggestion that he isn’t in the shit.
        
        Just look at what he fucking did, not just at wikileaks.
        
        QoT …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:13 pm
        
        *standing ovation*
        
        rosy …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:18 pm
        
        and more cheering
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:05 pm
        
        and even more standing and cheering.
        
        marty mars …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:12 pm
        
        I also support Pb’s comment and Qot’s and weka’s and rosy’s and McFlock’s posts about this issue.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:21 pm
        
        Thanks for making it clear that you believe extradition from Sweden to the US to face charges of capital crimes there is a real risk facing Assange.
        
        I believe the Swedes should guarantee Assange that they will never allow him to be transported to the US on unrelated charges. Then, Assange should go to Sweden to face the music.
        
        But answer me this: why the hell should Assange risk being forcefully shipped to the US and be possibly incarcerated at Guantanomo Bay?
        
        Your letter writing campaign will be a lot of comfort to him then, won’t it?
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:31 pm
        
        Because he fucked up.
        
        That has happened. The fuck up is fact. It’s not something that can be run away from.
        
        So the question for the wikileaks style cause, if there is such a thing still existing, is how does the cause survive the fuckup. How can it be salvaged?
        
        A trial of assange on trumped up charges that don’t actually fit and would potentially require the Supreme Court to either overturn the whole undertsanding of what Freedom of Speech means, or throw the charges out and therefore make wikileaks legal?
        
        That might work.
        
        So what’s that first question I asked?
        
        “Is he bigger than the cause”
        
        That’s only a question he can answer. He knew what he was taking on.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:36 pm
        
        So you support the possibility Assange will be shipped to the US to face charges of capital crimes because “he fucked up”. That’s just great.
        
        Nothing to do with what these women claim that he did to them, in Sweden.
        
        And you believe Assange should pin his hopes (and his life) on the judgement of the US Supreme Court?
        
        btw the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over military tribunals.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:53 pm
        
        I think he has to decide whether or not he is bigger than the cause. I thought I’d made that clear.
        
        That choice that he has to make stems from the fact that he fucked up. He raped someone, based on what he admits, I’m calling it rape. If he wants people to stop calling it rape, he needs to get himself in court. That means he can’t hide from the US if the Swedes won’t protect him.
        
        Now that’s not “just great” It’s shit. And it’s his fault. He fucked up, and this is the situation his cause is in. And now he has a decision to make. And he doesn’t seem to be making ones that are in the best interest of his cause.
        
        Do you think he is bigger than the cause?
        
        And, BTW,
        
        “btw the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over military tribunals.”
        
        is pretty weird. The USSC has ‘juristriction’ over the fucking constitution, under which it is decided whether or not military tribunals even exist.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:59 pm
        
        You dodged the point. If Assange is held in the military tribunal system, he will never have a chance to be heard by the US Supreme Court.
        
        So you are ok with him being transported to the US for capital crimes, with Swedish sex charges as the facilitating cover?
        
        I don’t care how big Assange’s ego is, but that does not seem like justice to me.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:26 pm
        
        “So you are ok with him being transported to the US for capital crimes, with Swedish sex charges as the facilitating cover?”
        
        Replace “facilitating cover” with “the plate he handed himself to them on” and you’ll be closer to what I’ve already said, more than enough times.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:51 pm
        
        @weka
        
        Sorry this thread is getting messy to follow and reply to.
        
        RL, just so I can be clear, if the statements given by the women were a true account of what happened, would you agree that it was rape, or would you consider it to be unwise actions?
        
        First of all I would want to read ALL of their statements and ALL of Assange’s defence. Why do I have to convict solely on the selectively quoted statements of one party?
        
        Secondly we would need to be able to define exactly what constitutes ‘rape’. For all practical purposes most people tend to think that once you have gotten willingly into the same bed with each other and you are both naked … then you have also gotten to consent.
        
        I can think of many reasons why you may disagree with that, and you can feel free to put as many more layers onto the precise meaning of consent as you want. But you and I both know that sex is not such a cerebral act that you’d want it to support anything less than a fairly robust test and that works for most people.
        
        Because at the other extreme of simply defining that ANY time ANY woman decides that ANY sex act was ‘unwanted’ for ANY reason is rape… is going to for all practical purposes define all men as rapists. Or at the very least no sane man would ever go near any woman ever again. (And apologies for being so hetero-normative here.. but that is the context.) Nor does any sane person demand a legal document be signed up to before each act of sex.
        
        Any useful test of consent has to lie somewhere between the sheets of each extreme as it were.
        
        Thirdly I don’t know of anyone who on visiting another country immediately swots up on the subtle shades of legal connotation around their sex laws. These laws vary quite widely around the world and are a very easy way to literally fuck up if you are unwary.
        
        In the end it’s not my choice as to whether Assange is legally a rapist or not. That’s for a Swedish Court to decide.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:25 pm
        
        Which bit makes him the rapist? The ‘penetrating with penis’ or the ‘non-consensual’? The latter right?
        
        So this hinges on the legal interpretation of the ‘non-consensual’ bit ..yes? Fine, so exactly where am I going wrong in wanting to see that tested in Court. Or do you have some other mechanism in mind?
        
        Because while I understand that you have reached an strong conclusion based on what you have read; over the last few years I’ve read so many contradictory claims that I’m nowhere near as sure as you are. Sorry if that makes me a women-hating pig.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:36 pm
        
        But, look what he fucking did.
        
        Hyperbole some? Sex makes fools of us all. Every single one of us have done something sexually that in hindsight was unwise. Most especially when our lives spin way out of the ordinary. This does not make him a monster, just fallible.
        
        As everyone says; the best course is for Assange to face the charges in Sweden.
        
        This matter could have been cleared up ages ago if the Swedes had given an iron-clad assurance that there would be no extradition to the USA. The fact that they have not is at the root of this.
        
        McFlock …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:09 pm
        
        I don’t believe that the Swedes should even consider giving such an assurance to anyone.
        Two reasons:
        Firstly, it’s a police investigation, not a negotiation.
        Secondly, if any nation approaches with an extradition order, each one needs to be evaluated on its merits. Because maybe someone from the US or NZ claims he raped them or did something else on his last visit to that country. And if the yanks really want to get him, they’ll try to formally extradite him simply because he’s not an anonymous Egyptian who can be “disappeared”. People are watching him, and disappearing him would be more trouble than it’s worth – and as has been said, wikileaks should be able to continue without him.
        
        weka …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:21 pm
        
        Hyperbole some? Sex makes fools of us all. Every single one of us have done something sexually that in hindsight was unwise. Most especially when our lives spin way out of the ordinary. This does not make him a monster, just fallible.
        
        RL, just so I can be clear, if the statements given by the women were a true account of what happened, would you agree that it was rape, or would you consider it to be unwise actions?
        
        Here’s the descrptions again. I’m not asking you to say if Assange is a rapist, I’m asking hypothetically, if a man did those things, would you consider it to be rape?
        
        [Witness AA] The appellant [Assange]’s physical advances were initially welcomed but then it felt awkward since he was “rough and impatient” … They lay down in bed. AA was lying on her back and Assange was on top of her … AA felt that Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina directly, which she did not want since he was not wearing a condom … She did not articulate this. Instead she therefore tried to turn her hips and squeeze her legs together in order to avoid a penetration … AA tried several times to reach for a condom, which Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without using a condom. AA says that she felt about to cry since she was held down and could not reach a condom and felt this could end badly.
        
        [Witness SW] They fell asleep and she woke up by his penetrating her. She immediately asked if he was wearing anything. He answered: “You.” She said: “You better not have HIV.” He said: “Of course not.” She may have been upset, but she clearly consented to its [the sexual encounter’s] continuation and that is a central consideration.
        
        http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange
        
        Draco T Bastard …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:34 am
        
        This matter could have been cleared up ages ago if the Swedes had given an iron-clad assurance that there would be no extradition to the USA. The fact that they have not is at the root of this.
        
        That doesn’t make any sense any more. The US could have extradited him from the UK. If he went to Sweden to face charges and got extradited to the US the world would know damn well that it political and have nothing to do any crime.
        
        IMO, his lawyers are either advising him very badly or he’s ignoring them.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:55 am
        
        @DtB
        
        The US could have extradited him from the UK.
        
        I’m not at all sure the UK Courts would have played ball with that.
        
        If he went to Sweden to face charges and got extradited to the US the world would know damn well that it political and have nothing to do any crime.
        
        Same situation Bradley is in. Hasn’t helped him any much. Once the US military get their hands on him, and especially if a Republican wins this upcoming election … there’s a plausible chance they’d execute him.
        
        Draco T Bastard …
        
        21 July 2012 at 1:39 am
        
        I’m not at all sure the UK Courts would have played ball with that.
        
        Which would reinforce the idea that it was a political move by the US via Sweden.
        
        Once the US military get their hands on him,
        
        That would be an if which is becoming more unlikely by the day as, like I say, extradition from Sweden when the US could have tried extradition from the UK would just prove that it was political.
        
        McFlock …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:46 pm
        
        Scenario 3: He is a narcissist who refuses to acknowledge what even his lawyers acknowledge, and instead of being forced to do that he would prefer to spend the rest of his days in a tropical country being defended by interwebz acolytes who think that because he developed a website that pissed off the US government then he either (at best) is incapable of rape or (at worst) should get away with it.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:56 pm
        
        Yeah right.
        
        McFlock …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:15 pm
        
        Didn’t Ronnie Biggs spend longer on the run in Brazil than he would have spent inside?
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 8:40 am
        
        Everyone quoting Assange’s lawyer (Emmerson), in particular the passage where he repeats the allegations, should be aware that in the same piece of legal argument – as presented to Lord Justice Thomas and Mr Justice Ousely – see The Guardian’s article, which goes on to say:
        
        “Emmerson told the court the case did not hinge on whether Assange accepted this version of events and others…”
        
        So in fact, Emmerson has not accepted that the witness statements are accurate representations of events.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:27 pm
        
        No.
        He was arguing that even if the complaints were 100% correct, the arrest warrant was invalid so extradition should be refused. Didn’t work. Valid warrant. Another Team Assange fail.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        22 July 2012 at 4:29 pm
        
        So in fact, Emmerson has not accepted that the witness statements are accurate representations of events.
        
        Interesting, that! (and not what’s been claimed)
        
        muzza …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:05 pm
        
        Wondering how long its going to take for people to work out the wikileaks charade, complete with Assange hiding out in plush parts of London, reporting on RT, speaking out against Syria and so on.
        
        As usual, things are not even remotely like what they appear to be!
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:14 pm
        
        Not everyone is as smart as you muzza, so why don’t you just tell us?
        
        muzza …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:29 pm
        
        Nothing to do with being smart, its simply being able to recognise shit when you look at something.
        
        If anyone really wanted to get Assange, he would have been got many times over by now.
        
        Enjoyed your comment on the Syria article, PB.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        20 July 2012 at 10:38 pm
        
        If anyone really wanted to get Assange, he would have been got many times over by now.
        
        NO NO NO
        
        They are getting to him now
        
        His value to TPTB is as a living example to others of suffering under the gun
        
        “Don’t mess with us, we will make your life a living misery for years” is the message. And think of Bradley Manning.
        
        muzza …
        
        20 July 2012 at 11:19 pm
        
        CV, I hear what you say, but in the Assange situation, for me, too much is out of place, its a shambles trying to pick through it.
        
        Its a long way from what it seems for mine, thats about as much of a fuck I give about assange and wikileaks.
- just saying 15.2
  
  20 July 2012 at 5:25 pm
  
  sigh.
  
  Here we go again.
  
  Even if (and it’s a big if) the case was being taken advantage of by forces with a political agenda, that would certainly not prove Assange innocent of the charges.
  
  Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.
  
  Women victims don’t take kindly to having their reputations and lives shredded by those who claim to represent them, in their attempts to suck up to the big boys, I suspect.
- Vicky32 15.3
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:17 pm
  
  There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.
  
  Brilliant! Thanks for that, Morrissey…
  - Morrissey 15.3.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 1:09 pm
    
    Thanks for that, Morrissey…
    
    My pleasure, Vicky. Not so pleasurable is to read the befuddled contributions by our friends QoT, rosy, McFlock and marty mars.
    
    It’s intriguing, and disheartening, to see them simply recycling what they’ve heard on talk radio and read in the “liberal” press, which has treated Assange with a hostility to facts and a level of brutal vituperation that you would have found in Red China in the 1960s or Russia in the 1930s.
    - QoT 15.3.1.1
      
      21 July 2012 at 1:11 pm
      
      Yeah, we’re all just swayed by talk radio, that noted bastion of radical feminism and man-hating. WTF?
      - Morrissey 15.3.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 1:16 pm
        
        Yeah, we’re all just swayed by talk radio, that noted bastion of radical feminism and man-hating.
        
        I think you’re more swayed by the “liberal” media, which parrot the U.S. regime’s propaganda line against Assange and Wikileaks. You probably haven’t noticed that, though.
        
        I imagine you think you’re superior to the oiks on talk radio. At least most of them know they’re ignorant.
        
        WTF?
        
        This baffled refrain has pretty much become your signature, my friend. Keep it—it suits you perfectly.
    - rosy 15.3.1.2
      
      21 July 2012 at 1:17 pm
      
      Women question the unusual zeal in pursuing Julian Assange for rape allegations
      Letters, Guardian, 9 December 2010
      
      But of course you didn’t recycle a 2010 letter from the exact same newspaper I read most of the time?
      - Morrissey 15.3.1.2.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 1:34 pm
        
        But of course you didn’t recycle a 2010 letter from the exact same newspaper I read most of the time?
        
        I printed a letter from the Women Against Rape organization. You, on the other hand, choose to parrot the editorial line of the notoriously pro-establishment, pro-war, pro-government Guardian.
        
        Can you see the difference?
        
        rosy 15.3.1.2.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 1:36 pm
        
        Whose editors printed that letter.
        
        marty mars …
        
        21 July 2012 at 2:09 pm
        
        + 1 🙂
        
        Morrissey …
        
        21 July 2012 at 2:48 pm
        
        + 1
        
        Now there’s a clever, well thought out contribution. Keep it up, my friend: the politicians need people like you.
        
        marty mars …
        
        21 July 2012 at 3:13 pm
        
        thank you
        
        I find reading the arguments to be a good way to understand the issues but I do like to show support for a well made point via ‘+ 1’, however the smiley face was because in this instance I thought rosy, using minimal language, beautifully made her point.
        
        Morrissey …
        
        21 July 2012 at 4:29 pm
        
        I find reading the arguments to be a good way to understand the issues
        
        Could I suggest that a “good way to understand the issues” is to watch something other than what you see on British state television and read something more rigorous and honest than you see in (nominally) “liberal” corporate newspapers. You might, for instance, read Media Lens—go on, why don’t you Google it, then read it? Then come back here and post something informed on this topic instead of unwittingly rehashing government lies.
        
        but I do like to show support for a well made point via ‘+ 1′, however the smiley face was because in this instance I thought rosy, using minimal language, beautifully made her point.
        
        Rosy made her point using minimal language, and minimal reading, and minimal understanding. Which means that the only point she made was that she has nothing intelligent to contribute.
        
        If she is serious—and to date it looks like she is not—then she will read this and think about it….
        http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=686:incinerating-assange-the-liberal-media-go-to-work&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=69
        
        marty mars …
        
        21 July 2012 at 8:02 pm
        
        “go on, why don’t you… ”
        
        I did, and I enjoyed the article.
        
        “and post something informed on this topic”
        
        If I deem it necessary, I will.
        
        Morrissey …
        
        21 July 2012 at 2:46 pm
        
        Whose editors printed that letter.
        
        Printing a letter demonstrates what, exactly? That the Guardian is a liberal and serious newspaper rather than a partisan outlet for business and government propaganda?
        
        marty mars …
        
        21 July 2012 at 3:17 pm
        
        Sorry to poke my nose in but, Morrissey it demonstates whoosh or woooosh if you prefer
        
        Morrissey …
        
        21 July 2012 at 4:19 pm
        
        Sorry to poke my nose in but, Morrissey it demonstates whoosh or woooosh if you prefer
        
        No, I’m afraid it does not do that, marty. It demonstrates only that our friend Rosy, who no doubt congratulates herself daily that she is a “liberal”, is impressed by the fact that the “liberal” Guardian has deigned to print a letter from Women Against Rape pointing out that the campaign against Assange, which the Guardian unquestionably accepts and endorses, is politically motivated and probably entirely bogus.
        
        On second thought, you could be right, actually: that whooshing sound you heard was Rosy’s credibility and integrity disappearing down the gurgler.
        
        rosy …
        
        21 July 2012 at 7:14 pm
        
        Morrissey you have no idea what I read, and will notice, if you’ve read my stuff that I haven’t argued that he won’t be extradited, I’ve written that he should front up – he has questions to answer. That’s my view.
        
        But anyways, the link you gave lists quotes from authors that write for the guardian who don’t support Assange’s bid for freedom (note these authors are not ‘The Guardian’ the have stuff published there – they also have stuff published elsewhere). As a quick response…
        If searching ‘comment is free’ (where most of those authors write) in the guardian using ‘assange’ in the search box you get:
        
        – Whistleblowers need our help – let’s move on from WikiLeaks bickering | James Ball
        – Evidence of a US judicial vendetta against WikiLeaks activists mounts | Birgitta Jónsdóttir
        – My client Julian Assange would not get a fair trial in Sweden | Per Samuelson
        – Open door: The readers’ editor on… reporting Julian Assange’s extradition battle
        – An appeal to Ecuador to grant Julian Assange political asylum | Open letter
        
        as the first 5 headlines. Guess what – that section prints a range of views. I suggest Media Lens is selectively quoting to support it’s view (as we all do, btw). Still, a worthwhile link, so thanks for that.
    - McFlock 15.3.1.3
      
      21 July 2012 at 5:41 pm
      
      Screw you, Morrissey.
      When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”, smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them is not rape, you know what that looks like to me? People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be. I don’t need talkback radio to see that.
      - Colonial Viper 15.3.1.3.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:55 pm
        
        When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”
        
        Counter to your point, you’re in fact the first to bring up “sex by surprise” in this thread.
        
        McFlock 15.3.1.3.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 6:13 pm
        
        Oh, so no rape minimisation in this thread then? Good, he must be innocent then…
      - Morrissey 15.3.1.3.2
        
        21 July 2012 at 6:56 pm
        
        We knew this was going to happen of course: the redoubtable internet warrior “McFlock” has given up on rational argument and chosen the easy way out: melting down in public. Depending on how charitable one feels toward the poor fellow, it was either quite funny or quite sad. Let’s zoom in for a closer look….
        
        1.) Screw you, Morrissey.
        
        Nice start. A stylish and thoughtful opening salutation sets the tone well and establishes the intellectual tenor of his post.
        
        2.) When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”
        
        Of course, that nonsensical, fantastical non-charge was concocted by the vengeance-driven TeamUSA, backed up all the way by its bewildered “liberal” cheer squad, which includes a few of the more bewildered regulars on this usually excellent website. But wait, there’s more! This U.S. regime-endorsing “liberal” is not finished yet. I personally enjoyed the following farrago for its (entirely unwitting) comic brio….
        
        3.) …smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them [sic] is not rape, you know what that looks like to me?
        
        There is no rape complaint. Anyone with a shred of intelligence knows that. With the exception, of course, of the “liberals” who have swallowed the government-sanctioned Kool-Aid.
        
        3.) People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be.
        
        Nobody is “minimising sexual assault”. The allegations are driven by the U.S. government, and are fraudulent. You would know that if you read seriously on the topic.
        
        4.) I don’t need talkback radio to see that.
        
        I don’t believe you. Your words, and your ridiculous recycling of official lies and black propaganda is no better than what we suffer from the most cynical talk radio jocks.
        
        McFlock 15.3.1.3.2.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 7:20 pm
        
        1.) Screw you, Morrissey.
        
        Nice start. A stylish and thoughtful opening salutation sets the tone well and establishes the intellectual tenor of his post.
        
        You started it, dude.
        
        2.) When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”
        
        Of course, that nonsensical, fantastical non-charge was concocted by the vengeance-driven TeamUSA, backed up all the way by its bewildered “liberal” cheer squad, which includes a few of the more bewildered regulars on this usually excellent website. But wait, there’s more! This U.S. regime-endorsing “liberal” is not finished yet. There’s more….
        
        Really? Because it seemed to come from his lawyer…
        
        3.) …smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them [sic] is not rape, you know what that looks like to me?
        
        There is no rape complaint. Anyone with a shred of intelligence knows that. With the exception, of course, of the “liberals” who have swallowed the government-sanctioned Kool-Aid.
        
        Seems to be probable cause without a complainant, then.
        
        3.) People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be.
        
        Nobody is “minimising sexual assault”. The allegations are driven by the U.S. government, and are fraudulent. You would know that if you read seriously on the topic.
        
        Really? Because your two previous claims of fact in this comment seem to be, at the very least, debatable.
        
        4.) I don’t need talkback radio to see that.
        
        I don’t believe you. Your words, and your ridiculous recycling of official lies and black propaganda is no better than what we suffer from the most cynical talk radio jocks.
        
        Yeah, whatever dude. Assange developed wikileaks, so any harsh word against him comes from the black helicopter brigade. Keep maintaining that “intellectual tenor”.
- weka 15.4
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:43 pm
  
  There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety.
  
  True. Problem is, the case against Assange still needs to go through proper process, as should all rape allegations. And obviously Assange could be guilty AND his case could be being used politically, they’re not mutually exclusive.
  
  Unfortunately Katrin Axelsson doesn’t give any useful suggestions.
  
  I note the date of the letter is Dec 2010.
just saying 16

20 July 2012 at 5:08 pm

Some good news. ET has finally made it home. Joanna Black is taking up a new position as Double-Dipton’s ~~personal apologist~~ press secretary. And isn’t it sweet that she and her husband can help save the planet by car-pooling. After a peck on the cheek in the parliamentary foyer in the morning, each can make their way to the Top dog and the Deputy dog’s offices respectively.

At least now we must be spared hearing the dreadful woman pretending to be a journalist on ‘the panel’.
- Jim Nald 16.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 5:31 pm
  
  Joanne on the RNZ panel? And also from Listener …
  
  “Finance Minister Bill English has appointed a new press secretary – Listener features editor Joanne Black. Ms Black’s husband Grant Johnston is an economic adviser to Prime Minister John Key. She will replace Grant Fleming, who is moving to Westpac. Ms Black, a former NZPA and Dominion Post journalist, takes up her role early next month.”
  
  http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7312655/Today-in-politics-Friday-July-20
  
  and from sometime back:
  http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/national/politics/46079/Keys-players
  - Carol 16.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 5:38 pm
    
    What’s with Nats & Westpac? – first Simon Power, now Grant Fleming.
    
    Joanne Black and English?! A gruesome twosome!?
    - Jim Nald 16.1.1.1
      
      20 July 2012 at 5:56 pm
      
      umm … perhaps, that could be a question to be crowdsourced to help join the dots
      
      to kickstart, how about …
      
      a common denominator is a particular bankster?
      
      westpac provides the government’s banking
      
      … ?
    - Colonial Viper 16.1.1.2
      
      20 July 2012 at 5:56 pm
      
      Banksters united.
    - Jilly Bee 16.1.1.3
      
      20 July 2012 at 9:32 pm
      
      Absolutely Carol – I won’t miss her editorials and her Black Page at all.
      - Morrissey 16.1.1.3.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 2:56 pm
        
        I won’t miss her editorials and her Black Page at all.
        
        Is Joanne Black the unfunniest “humorous” writer since Helen Brown? I can think of nobody else as mirth-free.
        
        At least not in this country.
    - muzza 16.1.1.4
      
      20 July 2012 at 10:13 pm
      
      Wespac is the governments bank…
      
      Expect to see Power come wheeling back into politics not many years from now.
      - mike e 16.1.1.4.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:42 pm
        
        Power was head hunted by ANZ as their high rollers banker I thought former national Cabinet members seem to get an automatic golden parachute to one of the major banks.
        I don’t think its because of their abilities.
        But on the other hand it could be because of their PR skills(Lying ability).
        Tory trade minister was in charge of HSBC when money laundering took place.
        Like wise latest time magazine reveals John Keys Closest work mates were deeply
        involved in currency fraud.
        As usual key has denied Knowing any thing.
        Being their boss he must have known!
        
        Colonial Viper 16.1.1.4.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:47 pm
        
        headhunted by Westpac you mean.
Penny Bright 17

20 July 2012 at 6:14 pm

PRIVATISATION AND INCREASED COMPETITION FOR NATURAL MONOPOLIES LIKE WATER AND ELECTRICITY REDUCES PRICES?

BOLLOCKS!

The evidence…..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzt78xdczyqi1zv/A%20Tale%20of%20Two%20Networks.docx

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
- RedLogix 17.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:14 pm
  
  Penny.
  
  I can personally confirm that the figures for quoted in that linked article for the GWRC Bulk Water Supply are accurate. Those remarkable numbers are the direct result of technology driving substantial productivity gains over the period in question.
  
  This has been achieved because the Division is run by competent, capable leaders who believe in the public interest. Instead of those gains being pocketed by the capitalists … they have been directly returned to the ratepayers of Wellington as reduced rates.
  
  Nothing is perfect; but the idea that somehow the private sector is always magically more efficient that the public sector is a complete and utter myth.
  - Draco T Bastard 17.1.1
    
    20 July 2012 at 8:30 pm
    
    I’ve worked in both public and private sectors, of the two, the public sector was more efficient. The private sector was too busy cutting costs to maximise profit to be efficient.
Carol 18

20 July 2012 at 6:56 pm

So the Nats have given up on their promise to stop so many Kiwis to go to Aussie. Instead Bill (Double Dipton on a comfortable wage) wants NZ public servants who will work well for less money.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10821023

English: Stop crying over Australia
By Audrey Young

[…]
“Can we stop stop them going to Australia?” he said in a speech today to the Trans Tasman Business Circle in Auckland. “No. What’s the point of standing in the airport crying about it? We’ve just got to compete.

“They can pay more but it’s hot and there’s lots of flies. We pay less but you can go for a bike ride at lunchtime. Let’s stop being so defensive about it.”

Mr English made the comments in the context of describing the new sort of public servant he wanted.

It was someone who could work well for less money, who could work with others, who was adaptive, practical, disruptive, lateral thinkers and could take risks.

“None of those are the obvious qualities of a public servant but we need to make them the core qualities of the public servant,” he said.

Disruptive, eh? I would be too if the NAct government is intent on driving wages down.
- RedLogix 18.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:05 pm
  
  It was someone who could work well for less money,
  
  I was wondering if Sir Double Dipton was going to lead the way … by offering to work twice as hard for half the pay.
- fender 18.2
  
  20 July 2012 at 7:54 pm
  
  I’d have thought his ideal public servent would be a relative of his with a lifetime contract as consultant earning 2-3 times more than the going rate.
Penny Bright 19

20 July 2012 at 8:39 pm

WHO IS REALLY RUNNING THE AUCKLAND $UPERCITY COUNCIL – AND IN WHOSE INTERESTS?

Some of you folk may be interested in this?

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/auckland-council-headquarters-move-vy-124051#comment-468930
________________________________________________________________________________

Any untoward conflicts of interest between those who bought this property and those from whom this property was bought?

Where are the publicly-available ‘Registers of Interest’?

WHO IS CHECKING?

I did some checking.

This is what I found…………….

________________________________________________

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816011

Council eyes $122m ASB tower for new HQ
By Anne Gibson
5:30 AM Thursday Jun 28, 2012

The Auckland Council plans to buy new upmarket headquarters so it can quit a civic high-rise block tentatively earmarked for demolition.

The council has entered private negotiations to buy the ASB Bank Centre, valued by an Australian institutional fund at $112 million, substantially upgrading it for its staff and housing many of them under one roof.
………………………………..

ASB Bank Centre, 135 Albert St.
Valued at $112 million, owned by Brookfield Multiplex
31 levels with extensive carparking.”
____________________________________________________________

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/886938
_______________________________________________________

BROOKFIELD MULTIPLEX CONSTRUCTIONS (NZ) LIMITED (886938)

Last updated on 14 Dec 2011

Company number:886938
Incorporation Date:17 Dec 1997
Company Status:Registered

Company Addresses:Registered Office
Level 8, 66 Wyndham St, Auckland , New Zealand

Address for service
Level 8, 66 Wyndham St, Auckland , New Zealand
View all addresses

Directors Showing 2 of 2 directors

George KOSTAS
36 Johnston St,, Annandale, Nsw 2038, Australia ,

Peter George WALL
233 Beach Road, Campbells Bay, North Shore City, 0630 , New Zealand ”

______________________________________________

EXECUTIVE TEAM OF AUCKLAND COUNCIL PROPERTY LTD

http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/ABOUTCOUNCIL/REPRESENTATIVESBODIES/CCO/Pages/council_property.aspx

“Peter George Wall
BCA – Bachelor of Commerce and Administration
ACA – Associate Chartered Accountant

Peter has enjoyed over 30 years in the Property industry participating in development, investment management and the acquisition and disposal of some $1.2 billion of Property assets. He has held CEO roles in public property companies, operated in UK, France and Canada and for 3 years
was Managing Director, Property for Brookfield Multiplex in NZ and he continues to provide consulting services to this company.

Peter is a past National President of the Property Council in NZ, President and Trustee of the North Harbour Charitable Trust, Trustee of the Graeme Dingle Foundation trust and Chair of the Harbour Access Trust which has as its responsibilities the development of the National Ocean Water Sports Centre at Takapuna and ferry services to Takapuna and Browns Bay.”

__________________________________________________________

hmmmmm…………………….????

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
fnjckg 20

20 July 2012 at 9:46 pm

And if one is in the mood for something apocalyptic then the film “The Road” may bring one up to speed- or alternately-the Mad Max trilogy; its all about OIL

New Zealand Aotearoa is a seismic country, not a Fractured c.ntry
chris73 21

20 July 2012 at 11:06 pm

So has Red Alert basically given up and The Standard become the default left-wing blog of NZ?
- QoT 21.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 11:08 pm
  
  I think the Standard always was based on having a rather more diverse range of authors. And some Labour MPs seriously need to learn how to blog in that happy online-writing medium between “GIANT WALL OF POLICY TEXT” and “Short Clare Curran sentences. Something to think about. Maybe an idea?”
- lprent 21.2
  
  21 July 2012 at 12:52 am
  
  Probably not. It looks to me like Red Alert is having one of the change of major author moments that multi-author blogs get. I haven’t read there for a while because I barely have time to read here. But Mallard and Curran appear to writing a lot less and they were the mainstays of the authors.
  
  We have those moments periodically as well. It is when people move off in a different direction. For instance in our case we have had major contributors like all_your_base, Tane, Steve Pierson, Marty G drop off writing for one reason or another. Others like myself or Irish or rocky and others tend to fluctuate a lot in how much we post over the years
  
  What usually happens is that there is a shortage of posts for a while and then the gap slowly gets filled. Provided the technical and financial framework and the readership is there, then people will tend to either start writing guestposts or get tapped as an author – usually because they want to.
  
  Multi-author blogs are less dependent on individuals than singleton sites. Which is why that most of the singleton sites on our blogroll appear to be moribund (last cleaned it in ummm March 2011). I need to write a page to allow people to add links for checking, and find a tcp/MD5 checker for sites that have died.
Vicky32 22

20 July 2012 at 11:07 pm

In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.

Me also!
Vicky32 23

20 July 2012 at 11:29 pm

And in making that choice he set off a circus that detracted from Wikileaks and Bradley Manning.

What would you choose, Rosy? The risk of Guantanamo? Maybe detracting from Wikileaks is the whole point! That’s why Assange hasn’t been ‘disappeared’ yet …
and best of all, the self-righteous and the fanatical get to attack Assange for his sin of self-preservation?
- bad12 23.1
  
  20 July 2012 at 11:46 pm
  
  Red Logix comment at 11.28 sort of throws a bit of a spanner in the works,it’s funny what some people will try and do with half a description of an event, add the other half of the statement tho and we have something entirely different,
  
  Perhaps the Assange is a rapist side of the debate believe this to be so because he and the supposed victim didn’t sit down and compose and sign a 32 page mission statement outlining the full proceedings of matters that would happen in the bedroom that night,
  
  Other than that if what Red Logix comented at 11.29 is in fact ‘fact’ then i cannot see where rape has occurred, damn i must be part of the problem too then…
Vicky32 24

20 July 2012 at 11:33 pm

So this part were he stops and puts on a condom, is this rape too? And why did you not quote the whole passage?

Excellent point, RL!
weka 25

20 July 2012 at 11:51 pm

I’m probably not going to reply to any more posts upthread because it’s getting too difficult to follow TS thread format. But I did want to say a few things.

It’s become increasingly obvious that the issues around the Assange case are convoluted to talk about because some of the men here don’t think that what was described constitutes rape. That is different from believing it is rape but that it didn’t happen. I just think that people should be honest and upfront about this at the start. Otherwise the issues all get mixed up.

I also think it would be useful to be upfront because some men seem to have alot of difficulty understanding what constitutes consent and what rape actually is. By this I mean there appears to be alot of confusion. And if we were upfront about it maybe we could clear up some of the confusion.
- RedLogix 25.1
  
  21 July 2012 at 12:13 am
  
  Well I do not think it was rape. I’m not an expert on the case so there may well be details I have not read and I reserve the right to change my mind.
  
  Assange may well have been rather too self-absorbed for his own good, and who would not be given the enormous circus that was going on around him? None of us are so immune to our own egos that when thrust into such an extraordinary situation that we might well find ourselves off-centre.
  
  Assange’s in a new country with more than one attractive women taking her clothes off and getting into bed with him Willingly. In my own life any time I have found myself with a new partner, especially when in another country, that the entire negotiation process is deeply fraught with the potential for misunderstanding. So yes things may well have gone awry for a moment or two.
  
  And when he finally twigs as to what is going on he stops and puts on a condom as requested.
  
  Nah…
  - weka 25.1.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 12:20 am
    
    Thanks RL. Your last couple of comments raise some important issues. It’s getting late, so another time I think.
  - just saying 25.1.2
    
    21 July 2012 at 8:29 am
    
    I don’t know if this thread has become obsolete, but I wanted to respond to this comment RL
    
    1. I suspect that the reason both complainants didn’t end up blaming themselves, or, given the ambiguities inherent in the situation, allowing Assange the benefit of the doubt in regard to the deliberateness of his actions, was that when they compared stories the full picture made it clear that Assange really had been trying to force unprotected sex on them despite clearly knowing that intercourse without a condom was against their wills.
    
    2. An alternative interpretation of the situation with the first woman: Assange clearly knew that the complainant was trying to reach for a condom, and that she was physically resisting penetration to prevent unsheathed intercourse in response to Assange using physical force to try and impose his will. The reason he eventually stopped this and asked what was wrong, was that given the strength of her physical resistance, in order to force intercourse he would need to notch-up the violence to a level where he would lose ‘plausible deniability’, ie he’d have to hit her or something.
    
    3 With the second complainant, Assange was unable to persuade her to forgo a condom during consensual intercourse the previous evening. (Her former partner has said that she was always adamant about condom-use and that she had never had intercourse without one prior to Assange).* However, when she was asleep she couldn’t refuse, and once he was “in” the damage was done, and she was highly likely to allow him to continue. Apart from anything else, no-one does their best thinking two seconds after waking up.
    
    *I’m busy today and shouldn’t be writing this,. I’ll dig out a link for this if anyone wants me to when I get back this afternoon.
- bad12 25.2
  
  21 July 2012 at 12:15 am
  
  OK but you go first then, but first tell me, i read the piece from the victim AA’s statement someone put up as a comment right,
  
  Now it took a while but Red Logix at 11.28 posted a later paragraph of that statement and what i want to know does your view still hold after reading the paragraph Red Logix put into the debate from the victim AA that Assange is definitely a rapist,(in the case of victim AA)???…
  - weka 25.2.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 12:24 am
    
    Bad, I have no idea what you are talking about. You will have to link to posts (use the date in blue as the link), or quote in the whole.
    - bad12 25.2.1.1
      
      21 July 2012 at 12:41 am
      
      Gee i am a self taught computer illiterate,no i didnt teach myself to be illiterate that’s one of my natural skills,
      
      OK,having side stepped the issue of having to post specific links here’s what was initially posted from victim aa’s statement,(in my words), basically Her and Assange got naked on a bed and while Assange is trying to have sex with Her, She is trying to hold Him off and reach for the condoms all the while keeping her legs crossed,
      
      OK, everyone seemingly based on that piece of the statement is saying Assange is a rapist,
      
      But,
      
      At 11.29 tonight RedLogix posted the next paragraph of the statement in which the victim then says that Assange stopped trying to have sex with Her and asked why She had Her legs crossed and when She told Assange that she wanted Him to use a condom He let go of Her arms and She grabbed the condoms,
      
      SO,where’s the rape???…
  - McFlock 25.2.2
    
    21 July 2012 at 12:27 am
    
    Personally? Nah, that’d just be the molestation and coercion charges.
    For me, the rape is having unprotected sex with a sleeping woman.
RedLogix 26

21 July 2012 at 12:39 am

For me, the rape is having unprotected sex with a sleeping woman.

More an act of stupidity than criminality. (And it’s not like he sneaked into her room and into her bed unaware as your context suggests.) It may well carry a criminal charge of a lessor degree than rape in Sweden, but to call this rape veers off into the dreaded deserts of trivialisation.

Still if everyone who had done something stupid during sex had been convicted and sentenced to prison for it … the world would be a much better place. No?
- McFlock 26.1
  
  21 July 2012 at 12:51 am
  
  Regardless of whether you argue implied consent for sex in the situation, the failure to use a condom is blatantly removing the ability to refuse consent for unprotected sex.
  
  Similarly, in the case of AA his actions do seem to be towards overruling his partner’s control over what happens to her body.
  
  Yes, many of us have done “something stupid during sex”. But a pattern of overruling the bounds of one’s partners’ consent probably is something that people should go to court for. It’s not a charming peccadillo like having a pet name for one’s willy..
  - Kotahi Tane Huna 26.1.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 8:59 am
    
    Assange’s lawyer didn’t accept this version of events.
- RedLogix 26.2
  
  21 July 2012 at 1:07 am
  
  I never suggested it was ‘charming pecadillo’ either.
  
  I guess I’m just deeply uncomfortable with something as fundamentally wild and messy as sex being reduced to a set of do’s, don’t and mechanistic rules.
  
  Sometimes, like when I’ve leapt into the head of a massive river gorge with nothing but my pack to float on, and no idea what’s around the next few bends, you just have to accept that there may be fuck-ups and consequences. If I didn’t want to take that chance then I’d take the slow, safe boring route over the bluffs. With two people it gets more complex; but in the final analysis you’ve both chosen to be in the rapids.
  
  Be careful not to misinterpret this as saying what he did was ok; but neither was it the crime of the century either.
  - McFlock 26.2.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 1:26 am
    
    Nobody’s saying it is the crime of the century.
    
    Similarly, nobody’s reducing sex to “a set of do’s, don’t and mechanistic rules”. Unless you think “make sure that you know what you’re doing is welcomed by the person you’re supposedly having sex with” takes all the fun out of it.
    
    I have exactly the same opinion of the Assange case as I do of the DSK case in New York. If a notable figure is accused of a crime, especially a crime with a microscopic reporting and conviction rate, then it needs to be seen to be thoroughly and exhaustively investigated. The fact is that it’s already in the media, and if it’s brushed away then that’s a powerful signal about the priorities that the society has in relation to that crime. And if the case is dropped or allowed to lapse without being thoroughly investigated, it encourages that behaviour in others even if the accused turns out to have been innocent.
    
    Based on the most rational and closest-to-source links I’ve seen, I think Assange is a rapist. But even if he is found not guilty at least it has been demonstrated that the alleged crime is taken seriously. And frankly, I think that’s far more valuable to society than even wikileaks.
    
    As to the terror of rendition from Sweden, I think it’s bull in his case. Too well known.
    - muzza 26.2.1.1
      
      21 July 2012 at 9:54 am
      
      What did you think of the DSK case when it all fell apart?
    - RedLogix 26.2.1.2
      
      21 July 2012 at 9:58 am
      
      And as I have repeatedly said .. it would be best if the matter went to a trial. (Well remember that the Swedish authorities have not even charged him with anything yet. So far all they have been demanding is that he return to Sweden to be put in prison … before they have even interviewed him again.)
      
      But we all know that the this is not an ordinary prosecution. You cannot ignore the fact that there is a massive political agenda at work here and that no sane person would voluntarily go back to Sweden to face undefined time on remand in prison, no definite charges and the very real probability of being extradited to the USA on unrelated charges.. something the Swedes have refused to rule out even though it would cost them nothing to do so. No-one can have any confidence in a fair trial under these extraordinary circumstances; to suggest otherwise flies in the face of all reason.
      
      In the meantime we can parse the sexual politics of all this to our hearts content, and I don’t mind that discussion. On the scale of these things, the allegations made fall fairly close to the threshold of what some people think is rape or not, and that in itself is worthwhile discussion. If a fair trial found him guilty I would accept that the Court had heard all the evidence and made a fair decision .. but again … there is no longer any reasonable prospect of that happening is there?
      
      In the meantime we are allowing this wedging of the liberal movement to effectively taken our eye of the ball which seems a pretty massive self-inflicted injury if you ask me.
      - KJT 26.2.1.2.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:20 am
        
        No way would I go back to Sweden. Whether innocent or guilty.
        
        The chances of ending up incommunicado in solitary confinement somewhere at the USA’s behast is too high.
        
        Note: our own authorities turning out in force to enforce a “dubious’ US indictment for copyright violation. NTM Bradley Manning.
        
        Te Reo Putake 26.2.1.2.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:32 am
        
        Yeah, because Sweden is soooo beholden to the USA, unlike the UK where he has been living for the past few years without so much as a hint that the yanks want to extradite him.
        
        Seriously, Sweden is one of the places that most people fleeing political oppresion head to, because it has a tradition of standing up for the downtrodden. Even if the yanks did expect to be able to extradite him from Sweden, and there isn’t a scrap of evidence to say they are, so what? This a problem of his own making. If he had any respect for the women he was sleeping with, he would not be on the run now.
        
        If Assange is innocent, he should fight the charges, if they are ever laid. The man is an arrogant, gutless tool. And nice of you to mention Bradley Manning, another of Assange’s many victims. Is anybody keeping track of how many lives his pompous irresponsibility has damaged?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:37 am
        
        Nice image of Sweden. Holiday-esque.
        
        Except in 2001 Sweden assisted the US intelligence services to extradite 2 people back to Egypt, where they were subsequently interrogated and tortured.
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_and_Muhammad_al-Zery
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:47 am
        
        I don’t think much of a place where a politician, acting as a prosecutor, can over-ride the ruling of the chief prosecutor.
        
        Say what you like about Assange, but that’s that’s just plain dodgy.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:50 am
        
        Yeah, because Sweden is soooo beholden to the USA, unlike the UK where he has been living for the past few years without so much as a hint that the yanks want to extradite him.
        
        No.. do some research. Sweden is not the unalloyed social-liberal utopia you may in mind. Like most places it has it’s own peculiarities and vulnerable points and as CV rightly points out, they have record.
        
        Bear in mind that so far the Swedes have not laid charges despite having already interviewed him once and released him at that time. Assange was co-operative until it became apparent there was an agenda at work. Moreover it is perfectly plain that Assange has been singled out for an extraordinarily zealous prosecution effort, something quite unprecedented.
        
        Besides if Sweden’s tradition of standing up for the downtrodden is really at work here; why not simply fly to London to interview him? Why not lay definite charges and give a clear assurance that there will be no extradition to the USA on unrelated political charges relating to wikileaks.
        
        If what you say is true it would cost them nothing to give this assurance.
        
        My simple question to you is this; do you think there is a political motivation to this prosecution or not? And if so would you have any confidence in the likelihood of a fair trial?
Te Reo Putake 27

21 July 2012 at 11:13 am

“My simple question to you is this; do you think there is a political motivation to this prosecution or not? And if so would you have any confidence in the likelihood of a fair trial?”

No to the first, yes to the second. Assange is not above the law, no matter what fantasies you attribute to his circumstances.

Edit: reply to RL. The other ones weren’t worth replying to.
- Colonial Viper 27.1
  
  21 July 2012 at 11:18 am
  
  Really, no political motivation? That’s generous of you, considering that many in the US Congress consider Assange to be an enemy of the state, while the Australian Government has deliberately not given Assange any assistance whatsoever.
- RedLogix 27.2
  
  21 July 2012 at 11:20 am
  
  Assange is not above the law,
  
  And I think I’ve clearly stated at least four times on this thread that it the Swedes get around to actually laying charges then a trial is highly desirable. Where did I for an instant suggest otherwise?
  
  no matter what fantasies you attribute to his circumstances.
  
  Denying that there is a political element to this entire matter has to be the most blatant example of ‘head up arse’ syndrome I’ve seen in a while. And round here that’s saying something.
  - Te Reo Putake 27.2.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 11:32 am
    
    “And I think I’ve clearly stated at least four times on this thread that it the Swedes get around to actually laying charges then a trial is highly desirable. Where did I for an instant suggest otherwise?”
    
    Who knows? Not me, I never mentioned that rather sensible opinion of yours. But at least we appear to agree that Assange is not above the law.
    
    There is no political element to the rape allegation. It’s a legal argument, not a political one. It can and should be defended on the facts of the matter.
    - Colonial Viper 27.2.1.1
      
      21 July 2012 at 11:55 am
      
      Then Sweden can take all doubt out of it by guaranteeing that Assange will not be extradited to the USA under any circumstances.
      
      That will leave Assange with no excuse whatsoever.
      - Te Reo Putake 27.2.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:22 pm
        
        Yeah, good point. Sweden should change its laws because of a non- existent threat to St Julian.
        
        Colonial Viper 27.2.1.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:27 pm
        
        So simply guarantee that Sweden will not hear any extradition request from the US for Julian Assange to face any capital crime or any military tribunal or military detention.
        
        No law change is needed. And its entirely standard to turn down extradition requests where the detainee faces possible execution, torture or corporal punishment.
        
        By addressing that concern Assange will have no excuse whatsoever not to turn himself over to Swedish authorities.
        
        Te Reo Putake …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:32 pm
        
        Why should Sweden change any aspect of their law to make life easier for any rape suspect?
        
        BTW, Sweden already has laws that stop extradition if the death penalty is a potential outcome. Not that the US has shown any interest whatsoever in extraditing him.
        
        RedLogix …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:47 pm
        
        Not that the US has shown any interest whatsoever in extraditing him.
        
        What other than the US Congress declaring him an enemy of the state? Besides:
        
        http://ccrjustice.org/newsroom/press-releases/ccr-condemns-reported-sealed-indictment-against-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange
        
        A sealed indictment against Julian Assange would underscore the very thing Wikileaks has been fighting against: abuses the government commits in an environment of secrecy and expansive, reflexive calls for “national security.” From the shocking, inhumane treatment of Bradley Manning, to secret grand jury proceedings, to Stratfor’s apparent knowledge of the existence of a sealed indictment before either Mr. Assange or the American public had such knowledge, the government’s conduct in this case reveals why more transparency, not more secrecy, is essential.
        
        mmmm…
        
        RedLogix 27.2.1.1.1.2
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:27 pm
        
        Sweden should change its laws ..
        
        Sorry but I’ve lost you there. Are you telling us that the Swedish have a law that says they have to hand over anyone that the US asks for? No questions asked and no discretion?
        
        Jeeze that’s even worse than I imagined!
    - RedLogix 27.2.1.2
      
      21 July 2012 at 12:02 pm
      
      There is no political element to the rape allegation.
      
      Again no problem if this was just a routine allegation being pursued in a routine manner; and if that was the case the Courts could be left to routinely sort the matter out.
      
      But you are being deliberately obtuse if you want to pretend that this is anything like a routine prosecution. Or that there is not a long, long history of the legal process being misused for abusive political purposes.
      
      And that this affair shows all the signs of being another example of it.
- Colonial Viper 27.3
  
  21 July 2012 at 11:27 am
  
  Edit: reply to RL. The other ones weren’t worth replying to.
  
  I’d appreciate it if you responded to the case of Sweden extraditing 2 Egyptian men in 2001 to be interrogated and tortured, at the behest of the Americans.
  - Te Reo Putake 27.3.1
    
    21 July 2012 at 11:36 am
    
    I would if it had the slightest relevance to the Assange rape allegation. But clearly it doen’t. What about the dozens of renditions via England? As I pointed out previously, the UK regularly extradites anyone the yanks ask for, but strangely, the USA doesn’t seem to give a flying one about Assange. They’re probably just having a hearty laugh at the mess he’s got himself in, not to mention the fun to be had giggling at left wing men on blog sites trying to trivialise rape.
    - Kotahi Tane Huna 27.3.1.1
      
      21 July 2012 at 11:41 am
      
      What about left wing men on blog sites who are concerned that if a chief prosecutor throws out a case, only to have it reinstated by a politician, that politicises and therefore trivialises any alleged wrongdoing, especially alleged wrongdoing where no charges have been laid?
      - Te Reo Putake 27.3.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:49 am
        
        Not a problem. That’s the system in Sweden, the country where the sexual assaults are alleged to have taken place. Their country, their rules. Best to avoid raping people in Sweden I would have thought. Or anywhere, obviously.
        
        By the way, I will acknowlege that there is a political element to the judicial process in some countries, in that the heads of police and prosecutors are sometimes elected positions. That’s the case in the UK and the States, for example. But that’s not what I suspect is meant by ‘political element’ in this discussion.
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna 27.3.1.1.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:15 pm
        
        It depends whether you think the case can be separated from what is going on with Wikileaks – a considerable amount of resources has gone into attacking that organisation, denying it banking facilities, etc. It would be naive to assume that Assange would not receive similar attention as an individual – and therefore very stupid of him to behave as he has – even if these allegations are entirely false.
        
        But here’s the thing – even if the allegations are false, we are then in the familiar narrative of powerful man exploits women, sleeps around, ruins own career.
        
        So either Assange is a rapist or a disrespectful idiot, and Wikileaks still can’t get banking facilities.
        
        Sweden’s justice system doesn’t look too flash either.
        
        Te Reo Putake …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:29 pm
        
        Yep, you’re right re: wikileaks. He didn’t just have unwanted sex with those women, he fucked Wikileaks too. As I said earlier, he’s an arrogant tool. And now he’s an arrogant tool hiding from the judicial system of a modern liberal state. Not because he’s worried about the US, but because he’s worried about Sweden. He’s a coward, too scared to face his accusers. He simply doesn’t have the spine to stand up in court and defend himself. Which is ironic, given his reputation was built on transparency and openess.
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:47 pm
        
        Depends whether you think the threat of extradition to the USA is real. Or, more importantly, whether Assange thinks it’s real.
        
        I suppose on strictly ethical terms he should go to Sweden even if he’s certain of extradition to the USA, but then “strictly ethical” behaviour would have kept him out of trouble in the first place.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:42 pm
        
        Arguing imminent peril of extradition to the US because of one case three months after 9/11 is precious. The US has burned a lot of goodwill since then.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:45 pm
        
        So you’re saying extradition to the US would not happen now? Even if the US decided that it was a matter of national security?
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:51 pm
        
        Never say never, but it’s pretty bloody slim imo.
        
        Much less than the yanks pulling him from the UK, or pulling a Vanunu in Ecuador.
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:53 pm
        
        So far as I am concerned the argument hinges upon evidence that a secret grand jury has been convened. The previous rendition was illegal, was it not? Assange’s would be procured through legitimate legal channels, where I’m not sure “goodwill” would be part of the test.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 6:00 pm
        
        Never say never, but it’s pretty bloody slim imo.
        
        You should tell this to Assange then. Sounds solid enough to bet his life on. Or at least a friendly stay at Guantanamo.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 6:05 pm
        
        So out of interest, if indeed he did commit the alleged crimes, exactly how many people is he allowed to rape before, in your opinion, he should actually risk facing a criminal justice system?
        
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 6:11 pm
        
        “…should…”
        
        If we’re discussing what he “should” do – I’ve already answered that – the ethical path is to go to Sweden despite the threat from the USA.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 8:32 pm
        
        So out of interest, if indeed he did commit the alleged crimes, exactly how many people is he allowed to allegedly rape before, in your opinion, he should actually risk facing a criminal justice system?
        
        FIFY
        
        You might remember that quaint trifle, the ‘presumption of innocence’ which applies to any and all charges laid either now or in the future.
        
        Sweden gives Assange a public assurance that he will not be extradited on unrelated charges (an assurance which costs Sweden nothing and in fact disarms Assange’s last arguments) at which point Assange should present for questioning ASAP.
        
        Easy as.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 8:49 pm
        
        “If he did indeed commit the alleged crimes” removes the need for your added “alleged”. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.
        
        And if he goes to Sweden and someone tries to extradite him for an alleged sexual assault in France, should he be able to be extradited?
        
        What about if he hacked into corporate records in the states? Does wikipedia mean he should be able to commit any crime without fear of extradition on legitimate charges?
        
        Just theoretically, not saying he has done anything wrong, but what crimes should he be able to commit before the investigating country no longer needs to negotiate his conditions of extradition to your satisfaction? Rape is out. Bank robbery, maybe?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:11 pm
        
        “If he did indeed commit the alleged crimes” removes the need for your added “alleged”. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.
        
        Except you referred to additional new allegations by asking “how many”. Unless you wish to assume his guilt in those additional hypothetical incidents as well?
        
        And if he goes to Sweden and someone tries to extradite him for an alleged sexual assault in France, should he be able to be extradited?
        
        What about if he hacked into corporate records in the states? Does wikipedia mean he should be able to commit any crime without fear of extradition on legitimate charges?
        
        Keep discussing irrelevant hypotheticals with yourself if you wish.
        
        Back to the actual case in point: Sweden should step forwards, publicly state that they will not be extraditing Assange to the US on unrelated matters. This would effectively disarm all of Assange’s key arguments for not presenting to Swedish authorities.
        
        Assange, having received that assurance should present to Swedish authorities posthaste, allowing the criminal investigation against him to continue.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:39 pm
        
        Back to the actual case in point: Sweden should step forwards, publicly state that they will not be extraditing Assange to the US on unrelated matters. This would effectively disarm all of Assange’s key arguments for not presenting to Swedish authorities.
        
        It’s a criminal investigation, not a negotiation. And the yanks could have extradited him from the UK just as easily – I know you have tremendous faith in the UK legal system, but besides injustices like the Guiford 4 and Brimingham 6, they also shoot Brazilian electricians in the head. I’m not so sure that Sweden is so much worse than that.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:59 pm
        
        It’s a criminal investigation, not a negotiation.
        
        So despite the fact it would achieve your goals – i.e. get Assange in front of Swedish authorities asap – you don’t think the Swedish authorities should give those assurances?
        
        BTW I didn’t imply that this assurance would be given as part of any negotiation; I’m suggesting that Sweden simply take the initative to get what they want: Assange in front of their criminal investigators asap. That’s quite different to conceeding some kind of negotiating point.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:05 pm
        
        Oh please.
        
        So if someone skips the country on an investigation, any country should arbitrarily limit their legal system in the hope that the suspect will return?
        
        Should this happen for everyone, be limited to famous people, or maybe just apply to St Julian?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:38 pm
        
        You want to leave the door open for Assange to be extradited to the US then?
        
        I thought you wanted Assange in front of Swedish investigators asap. I’ve detailed how that could happen. Why are you resisting that outcome?
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:48 pm
        
        For the reasons above.
        
        To maintain credibility, a legal system can’t be seen to negotiate or compromise just because someone is famous.
        
        Oh, and didn’t TRP respond to the bullshit ‘extradition to execution’ scenario?
        
        RedLogix …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:26 pm
        
        Mc Flock.
        
        Quit digging. Your argument only holds together until you examine any facts of the case. Sure if we were talking about a routine nobodies like you and I, none of this would apply.
        
        But this is the man who more or less created wikileaks and has made many powerful enemies; people who are entirely capable of misusing a legitimate legal process to covertly achieve a political end. So yes Assange is a special case.
        
        You are in utter fucking dreamland if you will not, cannot take take that into account. Of course you are not such a fool really, you know what I’m saying is true… but hell there are all those serious feminist brownie points to think of.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:44 pm
        
        Awww feminist brownie points. That’s sweet.
        
        Funnily enough, the “facts of the case” would be easier to examine if teamassange groupies didn’t make shit up. And I’d give more credibility to the extradition theory if the same camp putting it forward hadn’t made shit up from the get-go.
        
        Yes, there are political factors. He knew that before he slept around, consent or otherwise. He knew that when he made himself the face of wikileaks. Maybe the yanks did construct the entire thing. But maybe he did exactly what he is suspected of. This is what criminal investigations are for. And at the moment, it doesn’t seem to be the investigators who are making shit up.
    - Colonial Viper 27.3.1.2
      
      21 July 2012 at 11:57 am
      
      I would if it had the slightest relevance to the Assange rape allegation. But clearly it doen’t.
      
      Disingenous mate.
      
      YOU made it relevant by claiming that Sweden was
      
      one of the places that most people fleeing political oppresion head to, because it has a tradition of standing up for the downtrodden.
      
      Which my example shows is clearly BOLLOCKS when the US intelligence services have an interest.
      - Te Reo Putake 27.3.1.2.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:23 pm
        
        Wow, big logic failure there, CV. Must try harder.
        
        Colonial Viper 27.3.1.2.1.1
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:29 pm
        
        Didn’t you say that Sweden was a protector of human rights and a great country to seek protection within?
        
        Didn’t my 2001 example of two Egyptians being extradited and subsequently tortured prove that you were full of shit?
        
        Where was the logic fail? Please point out.
        
        Te Reo Putake …
        
        21 July 2012 at 12:39 pm
        
        Yep, that’s Sweden’s history. It has taken more than its fair share of asylum seekers and one unrelated example of poor behaviour (which I’ll take your word for) doesn’t change that. If he’s not guilty he should get over there and defend himself. But he won’t, mainly because he’s chickenshit.
        
        You do understand that the UK routinely extradite even the mentally ill to the US at the drop of a hat? This is not about America, it’s about your favourite alleged rapist not wanting to justify his behaviour in court. Your paranoia can’t alter that, CV.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 5:08 pm
        
        This is not about America, it’s about your favourite alleged rapist not wanting to justify his behaviour in court. Your paranoia can’t alter that, CV.
        
        Why should Assange have to justify his behaviour in court? Wait until charges have been laid, I suggest, before you start talking about appearing in court. It makes me think that you’ve already decided that Assange is guilty for whatever reason. Let me remind you that the presumption is of innocence.
        
        You use the term “paranoia” suggesting an irrational, unrealistic and unjustifiable fear.
        
        Given that:
        
        – Sweden has extradited people at US request previously, people who were subsequently interrogated and tortured, and that
        
        – Bradley Manning (the other half of why some US congressmen think that Assange should be executed) has been held in utterly inhumane solitary confinement conditions and denied any semblance of legal justice, and that
        
        – Sweden will not give any reassurance that Assange won’t be on a plane direct to Guantano Bay soon after arriving in Sweden
        
        I’d suggest that Assange’s fears are actually rational, realistic and quite justifiable.
        
        Te Reo Putake …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:11 pm
        
        So what? He has got into this situation entirely because of his own behaviour. Even if extradition to the US was absolutely, 100% certain, he should still go to Sweden. Unless, of course, you think the consequences outweigh the alleged crime.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:17 pm
        
        Even if extradition to the US was absolutely, 100% certain, he should still go to Sweden. Unless, of course, you think the consequences outweigh the alleged crime.
        
        If he gets sent to the US, he may be charged with capital crimes, with penalty by lethal injection. You may be OK with that, but I am not.
        
        Te Reo Putake …
        
        21 July 2012 at 9:36 pm
        
        Did ya miss the bit where I pointed out Sweden won’t extradite if the death penalty is a possible outcome?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:03 pm
        
        Well, then it’s just fine.
        
        Kotahi Tane Huna …
        
        21 July 2012 at 10:39 pm
        
        Hmm – if Assange “should” go to Sweden, Sweden most definitely “should not” hand him over to the USA. Life imprisonment would mean exactly that, if he survived it long enough to die of old age. Not to mention that the charges are a joke and a fraud.
        
        But Sweden almost certainly will extradite him if required to – they will seek assurances that the prosecution will not seek the death penalty, then follow the rules.
        
        So even if Assange had behaved honourably I doubt the Swedes would have paid him the same courtesy.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:08 pm
        
        So many people here are OK with Assange facing life imprisonment or worse in a US federal or military institution, just for upsetting TPTB with wikileaks.
        
        Anything which happens to him later is fine as long as the rapist gets whats coming to him.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:17 pm
        
        Not one rapist.
        All of ’em.
        
        Am I fine with the scenario you portray? Nope.
        But the alternative is to dilute an entire criminal justice system for every case of sexual assault from now on, simply because Assange couldn’t keep it in his pants. And it’s already pretty damned diluted. That is the scenario that you seem to be okay with. ‘Upset TPTB and you don’t need to be extradited to face trial and investigation for other suspected crimes’. That’s your world. Frankly, I don’t like either option – but Assange put everyone else in this position.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:23 pm
        
        Yeah ok I get it McFlock, you want to make sure that Assange gets made a proper example of.
        
        Because if he doesn’t, then (somehow) every rapist around the world from now on will have an out.
        
        And any price he pays after that at the hands of the US will be “regrettable”, but “his fault”. You know, because he “couldn’t keep it in his pants”.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:30 pm
        
        And yet “somehow” I don’t think you do.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:40 pm
        
        You’re willing for someone else to risk paying an extraordinary price with the rest of their life so that their moral and sexual failings are adequately punished. Pretty clear mate.
        
        McFlock …
        
        21 July 2012 at 11:46 pm
        
        Nope.
        
        He was prepared to risk paying the price of becoming the face of wikileaks by becoming the face of wikileaks.
        
        I’m just saddened that he’d risk paying it for such a pointless act.

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Today is a special member's morning, scheduled to make up for the government's theft of member's days throughout the year. First up was the first reading of Greg Fleming's Crimes (Increased Penalties for Slavery Offences) Amendment Bill, which was passed unanimously. Currently the House is debating the third reading of ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
Going Backwards

We're going backwardsIgnoring the realitiesGoing backwardsAre you counting all the casualties?We are not there yetWhere we need to beWe are still in debtTo our insanitiesSongwriter: Martin Gore Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

5 days ago
Blaming Treasury & Labour, Willis looks for even more Austerity

Willis blamed Treasury for changing its productivity assumptions and Labour’s spending increases since Covid for the worsening Budget outlook. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, December 18 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast above ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
December-24 AT Board Meeting

Today the Auckland Transport board meet for the last time this year. For those interested (and with time to spare), you can follow along via this MS Teams link from 10am. I’ve taken a quick look through the agenda items to see what I think the most interesting aspects are. ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

5 days ago
The Making of a Mental Health Rockstar

Hi,If you’re a New Zealander — you know who Mike King is. He is the face of New Zealand’s battle against mental health problems. He can be loud and brash. He raises, and is entrusted with, a lot of cash. Last year his “I Am Hope” charity reported a revenue ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

5 days ago
It could have been worse

Probably about the only consolation available from yesterday’s unveiling of the Half-Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) is that it could have been worse. Though Finance Minister Nicola Willis has tightened the screws on future government spending, she has resisted the calls from hard-line academics, fiscal purists and fiscal hawks ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

5 days ago
The Deep Divisions of Local Government

The right have a stupid saying that is only occasionally true:When is democracy not democracy? When it hasn’t been voted on.While not true in regards to branches of government such as the judiciary, it’s a philosophy that probably should apply to recently-elected local government councillors. Nevertheless, this concept seemed to ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

5 days ago
Willis’ austerity strategy just isn’t working

Long story short: the Government’s austerity policy has driven the economy into a deeper and longer recession that means it will have to borrow $20 billion more over the next four years than it expected just six months ago. Treasury’s latest forecasts show the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s fiscal strategy of ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
Sabin 33 #7 – Are solar projects hurting farmers and rural communities?

On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...

Skeptical Science

6 days ago
Join us for a pop-up Hoon at 5pm on HYEFU

Come and join myself and CTU Chief Economist for a pop-up ‘Hoon’ webinar on the Government’s Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) with paying subscribers to The Kākā for 30 minutes at 5 pm today.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream to watch our chat. Don’t worry if ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
‘Ideas Worth Saving’: A Call for Papers

Some years ago, I found myself pondering the power of literature to endure. Or at least the power of some of it to endure, while the rest vanishes in mere decades: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/07/look-on-my-works-ye-mighty-and-despair-the-literary-future/. I have similarly had fun with the subject in some of my short stories, such as Another Alexandria ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

6 days ago
Corrections is torturing prisoners again

In 1998, in the wake of the Paremoremo Prison riot, the Department of Corrections established the "Behaviour Management Regime". Prisoners were locked in their cells for 22 or 23 hours a day, with no fresh air, no exercise, no social contact, no entertainment, and in some cases no clothes and ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

6 days ago
HYEFU and BPS data shows New Zealand is way off track

New data released by the Treasury shows that the economic policies of this Government have made things worse in the year since they took office, said NZCTU Economist Craig Renney. “Our fiscal indicators are all heading in the wrong direction – with higher levels of debt, a higher deficit, and ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

6 days ago
“Better economic management”

At the 2023 election, National basically ran on a platform of being better economic managers. So how'd that turn out for us? In just one year, they've fucked us for two full political terms: The government's books are set to remain deeply in the red for the near term ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

6 days ago
Shameless, clueless

AUSTERITYText within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedMy spreadsheet insists This pain leads straight to glory (File not found) Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

6 days ago
Minimum wage ‘increase’ is an effective cut

The NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi are saying that the Government should do the right thing and deliver minimum wage increases that don’t see workers fall further behind, in response to today’s announcement that the minimum wage will only be increased by 1.5%, well short of forecast inflation. “With inflation forecast ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

6 days ago
Crazy ’bout a Sharp-dressed Man

Oh, I weptFor daysFilled my eyesWith silly tearsOh, yeaBut I don'tCare no moreI don't care ifMy eyes get soreSongwriters: Paul Rodgers / Paul Kossoff. Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
How much should you worry about a collapse of the Atlantic conveyor belt?

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Bob Henson In this aerial view, fingers of meltwater flow from the melting Isunnguata Sermia glacier descending from the Greenland Ice Sheet on July 11, 2024, near Kangerlussuaq, Greenland. According to the Programme for Monitoring of the Greenland Ice Sheet (PROMICE), the ...

Skeptical Science

6 days ago
8% ACT Party Creates One Ring To Rule Them All

In August, I wrote an article about David Seymour 1 with a video of his testimony, to warn that there were grave dangers to his Ministry of Regulation:David Seymour's Ministry of Slush Hides Far Greater RisksWhy Seymour's exorbitant waste of taxpayers' money could be the least of concernThe money for Seymour ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

6 days ago
When austerity worsens public debt & cuts GDP

Willis is expected to have to reveal the bitter fiscal fruits of her austerity strategy in the HYEFU later today. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/TheKakaMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, December 17 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
Govt to double number of toll roads

On Friday the government announced it would double the number of toll roads in New Zealand as well as make a few other changes to how toll roads are used in the country. The real issue though is not that tolling is being used but the suggestion it will make ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

6 days ago
Luxon’s pre-emptive strike

The Prime Minister yesterday engaged in what looked like a pre-emptive strike designed to counter what is likely to be a series of depressing economic statistics expected before the end of the week. He opened his weekly post-Cabinet press conference with a recitation of the Government’s achievements. “It certainly has ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

6 days ago
Gordon Campbell On The Coalition’s Empty Gestures, And Abortion Refusal As The New Slavery

This whooping cough story from south Auckland is a good example of the coalition government’s approach to social need – spend money on urging people to get vaccinated but only after you’ve cut the funding to where they could get vaccinated. This has been the case all year with public ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

6 days ago
More public service contempt of parliament

Back in 2023 the New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties raised concerns about the inherent conflict of interest involved in public service agencies supporting parliamentary select committees. Our parliament is run on a shoestring, so depends on the public service for advice. But public service agencies work for Ministers, not ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

7 days ago
If There Is A God

And if there is a GodI know he likes to rockHe likes his loud guitarsHis spiders from MarsAnd if there is a GodI know he's watching meHe likes what he seesBut there's trouble on the breezeSongwriter: William Patrick Corgan Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

7 days ago
A Lipstick Government

Here’s a quick round up of today’s political news:1. MORE FOOD BANKS, CHARITIES, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS AND YOUTH SOCIAL SERVICES SET TO CLOSE OR SCALE BACK AROUND THE COUNTRY AS GOVT CUTS FUNDINGSome of Auckland's largest foodbanks are warning they may need to close or significantly reduce food parcels after ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

7 days ago
NZCTU open letter to Treasury on undue restrictions on restricted briefings

Iain Rennie, CNZMSecretary and Chief Executive to the TreasuryDear Secretary, Undue restrictions on restricted briefings This week, the Treasury barred representatives from four organisations, including the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi, from attending the restricted briefing for the Half-Year Economic and Fiscal Update. We had been ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

7 days ago
Why you won’t hear me advocate for electric cars

This is a guest post by Tim Adriaansen, a community, climate, and accessibility advocate. I won’t shut up about climate breakdown, and whenever possible I try to shift the focus of a climate conversation towards solutions. But you’ll almost never hear me give more than a passing nod to ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

7 days ago
Coalition forced to back down on tolling Pahiatua track

A grassroots backlash has forced a backdown from Brown, but he is still eyeing up plenty of tolls for other new roads. And the pressure is on Willis to ramp up the Government’s austerity strategy. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

7 days ago
Thank You

Hi all,I'm pretty overwhelmed by all your messages and emails today; thank you so very much.As much as my newsletter this morning was about money, and we all need to earn money, it was mostly about world domination if I'm honest. 😉I really hate what’s happening to our country, and ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #50

A listing of 23 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, December 8, 2024 thru Sat, December 14, 2024. Listing by Category Like last week's summary this one contains the list of articles twice: based on categories and based on ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
Making Gravy

I started writing this morning about Hobson’s Pledge, examining the claims they and their supporters make, basically ripping into them. But I kept getting notifications coming through, and not good ones.Each time I looked up, there was another un-subscription message, and I felt a bit sicker at the thought of ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Nothing here but the shadows

Once, long before there was Harry and Meghan and Dodi and all those episodes of The Crown, they came to spend some time with us, Charles and Diana. Was there anyone in the world more glamorous than the Princess of Wales?Dazzled as everyone was by their company, the leader of ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
The United Right: the FSU’s Continued Efforts to Undermine Academia

The collective right have a problem.The entire foundation for their world view is antiscientific. Their preferred economic strategies have been disproven. Their whole neoliberal model faces accusations of corporate corruption and worsening inequality. Climate change not only definitely exists, its rapid progression demands an immediate and expensive response in order ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Showing the Americans how to do it

Just ten days ago, South Korea's president attempted a self-coup, declaring martial law and attempting to have opposition MPs murdered or arrested in an effort to seize unconstrained power. The attempt was rapidly defeated by the national assembly voting it down and the people flooding the streets to defend democracy. ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
2 Men, 1 Haircut

Hi,“What I love about New Zealanders is that sometimes you use these expressions that as Americans we have no idea what those things mean!"I am watching a 30-something year old American ramble on about how different New Zealanders are to Americans. It’s his podcast, and this man is doing a ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

1 week ago
Chris Penk’s Hate Parade

What Chris Penk has granted holocaust-denier and equal-opportunity-bigot Candace Owens is not “freedom of speech”. It’s not even really freedom of movement, though that technically is the right she has been granted. What he has given her is permission to perform. Freedom of SpeechIn New Zealand, the right to freedom ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Tell me a story

All those tears on your cheeksJust like deja vu flow nowWhen grandmother speaksSo tell me a story (I'll tell you a story)Spell it out, I can't hear (What do you want to hear?)Why you wear black in the morning?Why there's smoke in the air? Songwriter: Greg Johnson.Mōrena all ☀️Something a ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago

National’s Greatest Misses 2023-4

National has only been in power for a year, but everywhere you look, its choices are taking New Zealand a long way backwards. In no particular order, here are the National Government's Top 50 Greatest Misses of its first year in power. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Minister’s plan for tertiary sector a backwards step

Returning to the model that was failing for most polytechnics and Institutes of Technology is not the answer. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: National buries 1019 planned homes

It’s been revealed that National has cancelled 60 percent of its housing projects planned before mid-2025 amidst housing woes. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Rule-Czar bill a right-wing power grab

The Government is quietly undertaking consultation on the dangerous Regulatory Standards Bill over the Christmas period to avoid too much attention. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Why not both? Luxon shuns Waitangi celebrations

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is running away from problems of his own creation, with his decision not to go to Waitangi. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
Govt’s ‘free speech’ legislation stokes fear, not freedom

The Government’s planned changes to the freedom of speech obligations of universities is little more than a front for stoking the political fires of disinformation and fear, placing teachers and students in the crosshairs. ...

Greens

4 days ago
Release: Nicola Willis spirals country deeper into recession

The economy shrank 1% this quarter and New Zealand has tumbled into the depths of a recession of Nicola Willis’ making. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
Release: Hikes for company directors but not ordinary Kiwis

Working people are going backwards while company directors are being given huge pay hikes. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
ECE no place to cut corners

The Ministry of Regulation’s report into Early Childhood Education (ECE) in Aotearoa raises serious concerns about the possibility of lowering qualification requirements, undermining quality and risking worse outcomes for tamariki, whānau, and kaiako. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Release: Strengthening Justice Services for New Zealanders

A Bill to modernise the role of Justices of the Peace (JP), ensuring they remain active in their communities and connected with other JPs, has been put into the ballot. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Release: Labour will continue fight against destructive projects

Labour will continue to fight unsustainable and destructive projects that are able to leap-frog environment protection under National’s Fast-track Approvals Bill. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Green Government will revoke dodgy fast-track projects

The Green Party has warned that a Green Government will revoke the consents of companies who override environmental protections as part of Fast-Track legislation being passed today. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Government for the wealthy keeps pushing austerity

The Green Party says the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update shows how the Government is failing to address the massive social and infrastructure deficits our country faces. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Release: Visa changes let migrant workers be paid less

The Government’s latest move to reduce the earnings of migrant workers will not only hurt migrants but it will drive down the wages of Kiwi workers. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Release: Nightmare before Christmas for Nicola Willis

With more debt and a larger deficit, Nicola Willis’ reputation is in tatters after her failure to return the Government’s books to surplus. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Warning to Fast-Track Applicants – ‘Exploit the Whenua, Face the Consequences’

Te Pāti Māori has this morning issued a stern warning to Fast-Track applicants with interests in mining, pledging to hold them accountable through retrospective liability and to immediately revoke Fast-Track consents under a future Te Pāti Māori government. This warning comes ahead of today’s third reading of the Fast-Track Approvals ...

Māori Party

6 days ago
Release: Govt cuts wages for lowest paid NZers… again

For the second year running, the government has effectively cut wages for the lowest paid workers in New Zealand. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Govt’s miserly 1.5% minimum wage will take workers backwards

The Government’s announcement today of a 1.5 per cent increase to minimum wage is another blow for workers, with inflation projected to exceed the increase, meaning it’s a real terms pay reduction for many. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Release: Govt shirking responsibility for rate hikes

All the Government has achieved from its announcement today is to continue to push responsibility back on councils for its own lack of action to help bring down skyrocketing rates. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Luxon’s ‘localism’ strikes again

The Government has used its final post-Cabinet press conference of the year to punch down on local government without offering any credible solutions to the issues our councils are facing. ...

Greens

7 days ago
Release: Govt breaks promise on EV chargers

The Government has failed to keep its promise to ‘super charge’ the EV network, delivering just 292 chargers - less than half of the 670 chargers needed to meet its target. ...

Labour Blog

7 days ago
Greens call for end to subsidies for Methanex

The Green Party is calling for the Government to stop subsidising the largest user of the country’s gas supplies, Methanex, following a report highlighting the multi-national’s disproportionate influence on energy prices in Aotearoa. ...

Greens

7 days ago
Govt child poverty targets allow for increase in poverty

The Green Party is appalled with the Government’s new child poverty targets that are based on a new ‘persistent poverty’ measure that could be met even with an increase in child poverty. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: Four weeks annual leave under threat

The Government’s attack on workers continues with news it is scrapping work on the Holidays Act. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Govt’s emissions plan for measly 1% reduction

New independent analysis has revealed that the Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan (ERP) will reduce emissions by a measly 1 per cent by 2030, failing to set us up for the future and meeting upcoming targets. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Greens stand in solidarity with Whakaata Māori on sad day

The loss of 27 kaimahi at Whakaata Māori and the end of its daily news bulletin is a sad day for Māori media and another step backwards for Te Tiriti o Waitangi justice. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Sanctions regime to create more hardship for families

Yesterday the Government passed cruel legislation through first reading to establish a new beneficiary sanction regime that will ultimately mean more households cannot afford the basic essentials. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Govt gifts renters housing anxiety for Christmas

Today's passing of the Government's Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill–which allows landlords to end tenancies with no reason–ignores the voice of the people and leaves renters in limbo ahead of the festive season. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: National Party urged to support modern slavery legislation

Labour is urging the Prime Minister to walk the talk and support legislation combating modern slavery. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour has lost confidence in the Speaker

The Speaker of the New Zealand Parliament made an unprecedented decision on the government amendment to the Fast Track Approvals Bill last night. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
One year on, still no progress on new ferries

Today’s announcement from the Government on its plan for new ferries throws more uncertainty on the future of the country’s rail network. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Nicola Willis’ smaller ferries will cost more

After wasting a year, Nicola Willis has delivered a worse deal for the Cook Strait ferries that will end up being more expensive and take longer to arrive. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Bill to sanction unlawful occupation of Palestine

Green Party co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick has today launched a Member’s Bill to sanction Israel for its unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, as the All Out For Gaza rally reaches Parliament. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour fully supports greyhound racing ban

The Government has done the right thing in moving to ban greyhound racing. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Greyhound racing industry ban marks new era for animal welfare

After years of advocacy, the Green Party is very happy to hear the Government has listened to our collective voices and announced the closure of the greyhound racing industry, by 1 August 2026. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Rangatahi voices must be centred in Government’s Relationship and Sexuality Education refresh

In response to a new report from ERO, the Government has acknowledged the urgent need for consistency across the curriculum for Relationship and Sexuality Education (RSE) in schools. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Govt introduces archaic anti-worker legislation

The Green Party is appalled at the Government introducing legislation that will make it easier to penalise workers fighting for better pay and conditions. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Winston Peters – Kinleith Mill Speech

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you tonight on behalf of the political party I belong to - which is New Zealand First. As we have heard before this evening the Kinleith Mill is proposing to reduce operations by focusing on pulp and discontinuing “lossmaking paper production”. They say that they are currently consulting on the plan to permanently shut ...

NZ First Press Release

2 weeks ago
Swarbrick calls on Auckland Mayor to end delay of revival of St James Theatre

Auckland Central MP, Chlöe Swarbrick, has written to Mayor Wayne Brown requesting he stop the unnecessary delays on St James Theatre’s restoration. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
He Ara Anamata: Greens launch Emissions Reduction Plan

Today, the Green Party of Aotearoa proudly unveils its new Emissions Reduction Plan–He Ara Anamata–a blueprint reimagining our collective future. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago

Internationally-trained doctors jump at chance to boost health workforce

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says Health New Zealand will move swiftly to support dozens of internationally-trained doctors already in New Zealand on their journey to employment here, after a tripling of sought-after examination places. “The Medical Council has delivered great news for hardworking overseas doctors who want to contribute ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

21 hours ago
PM appoints business leader to APEC Business Advisory Council

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has appointed Sarah Ottrey to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). “At my first APEC Summit in Lima, I experienced firsthand the role that ABAC plays in guaranteeing political leaders hear the voice of business,” Mr Luxon says. “New Zealand’s ABAC representatives are very well respected and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
New intelligence oversight appointments

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced four appointments to New Zealand’s intelligence oversight functions. The Honourable Robert Dobson KC has been appointed Chief Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants, and the Honourable Brendan Brown KC has been appointed as a Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants. The appointments of Hon Robert Dobson and Hon ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
New housing developments able to progress more quickly

Improvements in the average time it takes to process survey and title applications means housing developments can progress more quickly, Minister for Land Information Chris Penk says. “The government is resolutely focused on improving the building and construction pipeline,” Mr Penk says. “Applications to issue titles and subdivide land are ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Actions to speed up air travel delivering results

The Government’s measures to reduce airport wait times, and better transparency around flight disruptions is delivering encouraging early results for passengers ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Improving the efficiency of air travel is a priority for the Government to give passengers a smoother, more reliable ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Ending contracted emergency housing in Rotorua

The Government today announced the intended closure of the Apollo Hotel as Contracted Emergency Housing (CEH) in Rotorua, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. This follows a 30 per cent reduction in the number of households in CEH in Rotorua since National came into Government. “Our focus is on ending CEH in the Whakarewarewa area starting ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Vocational education and training decisions support return to regions

The Government will reshape vocational education and training to return decision making to regions and enable greater industry input into work-based learning Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds says. “The redesigned system will better meet the needs of learners, industry, and the economy. It includes re-establishing regional polytechnics that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Reducing the environmental impact of synthetic refrigerants

The Government is taking action to better manage synthetic refrigerants and reduce emissions caused by greenhouse gases found in heating and cooling products, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds says. “Regulations will be drafted to support a product stewardship scheme for synthetic refrigerants, Ms. Simmonds says. “Synthetic refrigerants are found in a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Ngāruawāhia section of Waikato Expressway back to 4 lanes for Christmas

People travelling on State Highway 1 north of Hamilton will be relieved that remedial works and safety improvements on the Ngāruawāhia section of the Waikato Expressway were finished today, with all lanes now open to traffic, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“I would like to acknowledge the patience of road users ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Appointments to the ENZ board

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds, has announced a new appointment to the board of Education New Zealand (ENZ). Dr Erik Lithander has been appointed as a new member of the ENZ board for a three-year term until 30 January 2028. “I would like to welcome Dr Erik Lithander to the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government to celebrate Waitangi Day around NZ

The Government will have senior representatives at Waitangi Day events around the country, including at the Waitangi Treaty Grounds, but next year Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has chosen to take part in celebrations elsewhere. “It has always been my intention to celebrate Waitangi Day around the country with different ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
More gangs added to Gangs Act list

Two more criminal gangs will be subject to the raft of laws passed by the Coalition Government that give Police more powers to disrupt gang activity, and the intimidation they impose in our communities, Police Minister Mark Mitchell says. Following an Order passed by Cabinet, from 3 February 2025 the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Judicial appointment announced

Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Justice Christian Whata as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Whata’s appointment as a Judge of the Court of Appeal will take effect on 1 August 2025 and fill a vacancy created by the retirement of Hon Justice David Goddard on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
GDP data highlights importance of growth

The latest economic figures highlight the importance of the steps the Government has taken to restore respect for taxpayers’ money and drive economic growth, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Data released today by Stats NZ shows Gross Domestic Product fell 1 per cent in the September quarter. “Treasury and most ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Strengthening Free Speech in Universities

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Minister of Education David Seymour today announced legislation changes to strengthen freedom of speech obligations on universities. “Freedom of speech is fundamental to the concept of academic freedom and there is concern that universities seem to be taking a more risk-averse ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Launch of Emergency Cellular Priority Service

Police Minister, Mark Mitchell, and Internal Affairs Minister, Brooke van Velden, today launched a further Public Safety Network cellular service that alongside last year’s Cellular Roaming roll-out, puts globally-leading cellular communications capability into the hands of our emergency responders. The Public Safety Network’s new Cellular Priority service means Police, Wellington ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Minister reopens Mangamuka Gorge

State Highway 1 through the Mangamuka Gorge has officially reopened today, providing a critical link for Northlanders and offering much-needed relief ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“The Mangamuka Gorge is a vital route for Northland, carrying around 1,300 vehicles per day and connecting the Far ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Funding confirmed for second Ashburton Bridge

The Government has welcomed decisions by the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) and Ashburton District Council confirming funding to boost resilience in the Canterbury region, with construction on a second Ashburton Bridge expected to begin in 2026, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Delivering a second Ashburton Bridge to improve resilience and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government boosts support for avian influenza response

The Government is backing the response into high pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) in Otago, Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard says. “Cabinet has approved new funding of $20 million to enable MPI to meet unbudgeted ongoing expenses associated with the H7N6 response including rigorous scientific testing of samples at the enhanced PC3 ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Levelling the playing field for media advertising

Legislation that will repeal all advertising restrictions for broadcasters on Sundays and public holidays has passed through first reading in Parliament today, Media Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “As a growing share of audiences get their news and entertainment from streaming services, these restrictions have become increasingly redundant. New Zealand on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Inspector-General of Defence appointed

Today the House agreed to Brendan Horsley being appointed Inspector-General of Defence, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Mr Horsley’s experience will be invaluable in overseeing the establishment of the new office and its support networks. “He is currently Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, having held that role since June 2020. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Fire and Emergency New Zealand final levy rates confirmed

Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government has agreed to the final regulations for the levy on insurance contracts that will fund Fire and Emergency New Zealand from July 2026. “Earlier this year the Government agreed to a 2.2 percent increase to the rate of levy. Fire ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
More AML relief on the way for Kiwi businesses

The Government is delivering regulatory relief for New Zealand businesses through changes to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act. “The Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill, which was introduced today, is the second Bill – the other being the Statutes Amendment Bill - that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Hawke’s Bay Expressway moving at pace

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed further progress on the Hawke’s Bay Expressway Road of National Significance (RoNS), with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board approving funding for the detailed design of Stage 1, paving the way for main works construction to begin in late 2025.“The Government is moving at ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Government seeks partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned-land

The Government today released a request for information (RFI) to seeking interest in partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned land with low farming and conservation value (excluding National Parks) Forestry Minister Todd McClay announced. “Planting trees on Crown-owned land will drive economic growth by creating more forestry jobs in our regions, providing more wood ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Wide ranging legislation to make justice system more efficient

Court timeliness, access to justice, and improving the quality of existing regulation are the focus of a series of law changes introduced to Parliament today by Associate Minister of Justice Nicole McKee. The three Bills in the Regulatory Systems (Justice) Amendment Bill package each improve a different part of the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Diverse skills in community trust appointments

A total of 41 appointments and reappointments have been made to the 12 community trusts around New Zealand that serve their regions, Associate Finance Minister Shane Jones says. “These trusts, and the communities they serve from the Far North to the deep south, will benefit from the rich experience, knowledge, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Torture redress for survivors of the Lake Alice Unit

The Government has confirmed how it will provide redress to survivors who were tortured at the Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital Child and Adolescent Unit (the Lake Alice Unit). “The Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care found that many of the 362 children who went through the Lake Alice Unit between 1972 and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
A busy year in the House

It has been a busy, productive year in the House as the coalition Government works hard to get New Zealand back on track, Leader of the House Chris Bishop says. “This Government promised to rebuild the economy, restore law and order and reduce the cost of living. Our record this ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Consultation opens on working with engineered stone

“Accelerated silicosis is an emerging occupational disease caused by unsafe work such as engineered stone benchtops. I am running a standalone consultation on engineered stone to understand what the industry is currently doing to manage the risks, and whether further regulatory intervention is needed,” says Workplace Relations and Safety Minister ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Greater reporting on Treaty settlement commitments

Mehemea he pai mō te tangata, mahia – if it’s good for the people, get on with it. Enhanced reporting on the public sector’s delivery of Treaty settlement commitments will help improve outcomes for Māori and all New Zealanders, Māori Crown Relations Minister Tama Potaka says. Compiled together for the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
New appointments to the Charities Registration Board

Mr Roger Holmes Miller and Ms Tarita Hutchinson have been appointed to the Charities Registration Board, Community and Voluntary Sector Minister Louise Upston says. “I would like to welcome the new members joining the Charities Registration Board. “The appointment of Ms Hutchinson and Mr Miller will strengthen the Board’s capacity ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Building consent processing times improve

More building consent and code compliance applications are being processed within the statutory timeframe since the Government required councils to submit quarterly data, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “In the midst of a housing shortage we need to look at every step of the build process for efficiencies ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Faster access to support through Innovation Fund

Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey is proud to announce the first three recipients of the Government’s $10 million Mental Health and Addiction Community Sector Innovation Fund which will enable more Kiwis faster access to mental health and addiction support. “This fund is part of the Government’s commitment to investing in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
New Zealand to assist Vanuatu on earthquake response

New Zealand is providing Vanuatu assistance following yesterday's devastating earthquake, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. "Vanuatu is a member of our Pacific family and we are supporting it in this time of acute need," Mr Peters says. "Our thoughts are with the people of Vanuatu, and we will be ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Government takes steps to reduce card fees for Kiwis

The Government welcomes the Commerce Commission’s plan to reduce card fees for Kiwis by an estimated $260 million a year, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says.“The Government is relentlessly focused on reducing the cost of living, so Kiwis can keep more of their hard-earned income and live a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Review recommends ECE regulation shakeup

Regulation Minister David Seymour has welcomed the Early Childhood Education (ECE) regulatory review report, the first major report from the Ministry for Regulation. The report makes 15 recommendations to modernise and simplify regulations across ECE so services can get on with what they do best – providing safe, high-quality care ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Offshore Renewable Energy Bill passes first reading

The Government‘s Offshore Renewable Energy Bill to create a new regulatory regime that will enable firms to construct offshore wind generation has passed its first reading in Parliament, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says.“New Zealand currently does not have a regulatory regime for offshore renewable energy as the previous government failed ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Local Government (Water Services) Bill passes first reading

Legislation to enable new water service delivery models that will drive critical investment in infrastructure has passed its first reading in Parliament, marking a significant step towards the delivery of Local Water Done Well, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly say.“Councils and voters ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Gene Technology Bill passes first reading

New Zealand is one step closer to reaping the benefits of gene technology with the passing of the first reading of the Gene Technology Bill, Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins says. "This legislation will end New Zealand's near 30-year ban on gene technology outside the lab and is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago

Māori ‘under siege’ in 2024, must fight back in 2025 – Ngarewa-Packer

Te Pāti Māori has had to adopt a new way of debating, operating and even thinking in Parliament in response to the Government’s “onslaught” against te ao Māori, co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer says.In an end-of-year interview with Newsroom, the Te Tai Hauauru MP reflected on how 2024 has differed from her ...

NewsroomBy Marc Daalder

47 minutes ago
The real story behind the Government’s maths narrative

Opinion: The latest Trends in International Mathematics and Science report was announced earlier this month, yet it didn’t get the flurry of media attention and political hand-wringing that typically accompanies these announcements. This might be because it presented good news, or you could argue, no news; the results paint a ...

NewsroomBy Dr Lisa Darragh, Dr Raewyn Eden and Dr David Pomeroy

47 minutes ago
Pretty much every common nut in Aotearoa, reviewed and ranked

At long last, The Spinoff shells out for a nut ranking. The Spinoff needs to double the number of paying members we have to continue telling these kinds of stories. Please read our open letter and sign up to be a member today. It recently came to The Spinoff’s attention ...

The SpinoffBy Shanti Mathias

2 hours ago
What it’s like to be made redundant by the Ministry of Education

I was one of hundreds of people who lost my government job this week. Here’s exactly how it played out. The Spinoff needs to double the number of paying members we have to continue telling these kinds of stories. Please read our open letter and sign up to be a ...

The SpinoffBy Anonymous

2 hours ago
Why can’t I pick up my own dropped phone on a plane?

Summer reissue: One anxiously attentive passenger pays attention to an in-flight safety video, and wonders ‘Why can’t I pick up my own phone?’ The Spinoff needs to double the number of paying members we have to continue telling these kinds of stories. Please read our open letter and sign up ...

The SpinoffBy Gabi Lardies

2 hours ago
Juggernaut: The ghosts of 1984

Summer reissue: Why do those Lange-Douglas years cast such a long shadow 40 years on? The Spinoff needs to double the number of paying members we have to continue telling these kinds of stories. Please read our open letter and sign up to be a member today. First published June ...

The SpinoffBy Toby Manhire

2 hours ago
Newsroom daily quiz, Monday 23 December

Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Monday 23 December appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Newsroom Puzzles

2 hours ago
Govt walks away from infrastructure alliance

The Government’s social housing agency has backed out of a billion-dollar infrastructure alliance that would have built about 6000 new homes in Auckland – less than 18 months after signing a five-year extension.Labour says the decision to rip up the contract and sell off existing state houses could lead to ...

NewsroomBy Sam Sachdeva

2 hours ago
Daily crossword, Monday 23 December

.wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles article .entry-title { font-size: 1.2em; } .wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles .entry-meta { display: flex; flex-wrap: wrap; align-items: center; margin-top: 0.5em; } .wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles article .entry-meta { font-size: 0.8em; } .wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles article .avatar { height: 25px; width: 25px; } .wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles .post-thumbnail{ margin: 0; margin-bottom: 0.25em; } .wp-block-newspack-blocks-homepage-articles .post-thumbnail img { height: auto; width: 100%; ...

NewsroomBy Newsroom Puzzles

2 hours ago
Vanuatu quake: Warnings as bad weather threat looms for Port Vila

By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor New Zealand’s Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) says impending bad weather for Port Vila is now the most significant post-quake hazard. A tropical low in the Coral Sea is expected to move into Vanuatu waters, bringing heavy rainfall. Authorities have issued warnings to people ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

8 hours ago
Signs of the hīkoi: More than just ‘words on cardboard’

The placards seen at the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti conveyed "huge kōrero with immediacy", expert says: "People know the power of the word." ...

Radio NZ – political

17 hours ago
A final Ode to .. King Luxon

Cosmic CatastropheThe year draws to a close.King Luxon has grown tired of the long eveningsListening to the dreary squabbling of his Triumvirate.He strolls up to the top floor of the PalaceTo consult with his Astronomer Royal.The Royal Telescope scans the skies,And King Luxon stares up into the heavensFrom the terrestrial ...

NewsroomBy Victor Billot

1 day ago
A hater and an enthusiast review The Royal Free by Carl Shuker

Spinoff editor Mad Chapman and books editor Claire Mabey debate Carl Shuker’s new novel about… an editor. Claire: Hello Mad, you just finished The Royal Free – overall impressions? Mad: Hi Claire, I literally just put the book down and I would have to say my immediate impression is ...

The SpinoffBy Claire Mabey

1 day ago
Survive to 25 (December, that is)

Christmas and its buildup are often lonely, hard and full of unreasonable expectations. Here’s how to make it to Jesus’s birthday and find the little bit of joy we all deserve. Have you found this year relentless? Has the latest Apple update “fucked up your life”? Have you lost two ...

The SpinoffBy Anna Rawhiti-Connell

1 day ago
All I want for Christmas is modern day slavery legislation

Despite overwhelming public and corporate support, the government has stalled progress on a modern day slavery law. That puts us behind other countries – and makes Christmas a time of tragedy rather than joy, argues Shanti Mathias. Picture the scene on Christmas Day. Everyone replete with nice things to eat, ...

The SpinoffBy Shanti Mathias

1 day ago
Israeli-American historian describes attacks on Gaza as ‘war of annihilation’

Asia Pacific Report “It looks like Hiroshima. It looks like Germany at the end of World War Two,” says an Israeli-American historian and professor of holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University about the horrifying reality of Gaza. Professor Omer Bartov, has described Israel’s ongoing war on Gaza as an ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

1 day ago
NZ govt plans to make ‘heavy handed’ change to free speech rules for universities

The New Zealand government coalition is tweaking university regulations to curb what it says is an increasingly “risk-averse approach” to free speech. The proposed changes will set clear expectations on how universities should approach freedom of speech issues. Each university will then have to adopt a “freedom of speech statement” ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

1 day ago
Caitlin Johnstone: Where does the aggression really begin?

Report by Dr David Robie – Café Pacific. – COMMENTARY: By Caitlin Johnstone New York prosecutors have charged Luigi Mangione with “murder as an act of terrorism” in his alleged shooting of health insurance CEO Brian Thompson earlier this month. This news comes out at the same time as ...

Evening ReportBy David Robie

1 day ago
OECD Report Highlights That More Is Needed

This report reflects that gap in our dealings overseas, and it shows that legislators, the public sector and businesses need to walk the talk. ...

Scoop politics

2 days ago
Government quietly scraps waste minimisation policies

The government has quietly cancelled plans to improve recycling and roll out a kerbside food scraps composting scheme. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
MEAA welcomes News MAP funding ‘leg up’ for Australian journalism

Pacific Media Watch The union for Australian journalists has welcomed the delivery by the federal government of more than $150 million to support the sustainability of public interest journalism over the next four years. Combined with the announcement of the revamped News Bargaining Initiative, this could result in up to ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Transmission Gully partnership breakdown will not hurt future public-private partnerships, Infrastru...

The roads partnership unravelled under a confidential settlement this week, meaning NZTA will now finish off what it had said was incomplete work. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Funding cuts to charity particularly felt over Christmas period

The number of people seeking help from Lifeline is expected to increase by 10 to 20 percent over Christmas. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Nelson Hospital conditions ‘unbearable’ – staff

One worker says the building is decrepit and falling down around them. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The Secret Diary of .. Luxon at Xmas

MONDAY“Merry Xmas, and praise the Lord,” said Sheriff Luxon, and smiled for the camera. There was a flash of smoke when the shutter pressed down on the magnesium powder. The sheriff had arranged for a photographer from the Dodge Gazette to attend a ceremony where he handed out food parcels to ...

NewsroomBy Steve Braunias

2 days ago
Stand by for cricket’s Smash Palace

It’s a little under two months since the White Ferns shocked the cricketing world, deservedly taking home the T20 World Cup. Since then the trophy has had a tour around the country, five of the squad have played in the WBBL in Australia while most others have returned to domestic ...

NewsroomBy Aiden McLaughlin

2 days ago
Early-onset dementia under the microscope

Comment: If we say the word ‘dementia’, many will picture an older person struggling to remember the names of their loved ones, maybe a grandparent living out their final years in an aged care facility. Dementia can also occur in people younger than 65, but it can take time before ...

NewsroomBy Shruti Sharma and Dr Brigid Ryan

2 days ago
Keeping the pirates at bay: Should the Australian ‘Blocking Order’ case prompt a discussion in N...

Piracy is a reality of modern life – but copyright law has struggled to play catch-up for as long as the entertainment industry has existed. As far back as 1988, the House of Lords criticised copyright law’s conflict with the reality of human behaviour in the context of burning cassette ...

NewsroomBy Tania Goatley and Oscar Zambuto

2 days ago
‘We were as famous as Tom Cruise’: Craig Parker on 90s Shortland St fandom

As he makes a surprise return to Shortland Street, actor Craig Parker takes us through his life in television. Craig Parker has been a fixture on television in Aotearoa for nearly four decades. He had starring roles in iconic local series like Gloss, Mercy Peak and Diplomatic Immunity, featured in ...

The SpinoffBy My Life in TV

2 days ago
‘I prioritise the mission, not my health’: Adam McGrath’s perfect weekend playlist

The Ōtautahi musician shares the 10 tracks he loves to spin, including the folk classic that cured him of a ‘case of the give-ups’. When singer-songwriter Adam McGrath returns to Kumeu’s Auckland Folk Festival from January 24-27, he’s not planning on simply idling his way through – he wants the late ...

The SpinoffBy Weekend playlist

2 days ago
The rescue dog bringing joy to Christchurch retirement homes

Alex Casey spends an afternoon on the job with River, the rescue dog on a mission to spread joy to Ōtautahi rest homes. Almost everyone says it is never enough time. But River the rescue dog, a jet black huntaway border collie cross, has to keep a tight pace to ...

The SpinoffBy Alex Casey

2 days ago
Fiji pro-Palestine nativity scene exposes Gaza as ‘hell on earth’ at Christmas

Asia Pacific Report Fiji activists have recreated the nativity scene at a solidarity for Palestine gathering in Fiji’s capital Suva just days before Christmas. The Fiji Women’s Crisis Centre and Fijians for Palestine Solidarity Network recreated the scene at the FWCC compound — a baby Jesus figurine lies amidst the ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Vanuatu quake: ‘Our shop was flattened like a deck of cards’

By 1News Pacific correspondent Barbara Dreaver and 1News reporters A number of Kiwis have been successfully evacuated from Vanuatu after a devastating earthquake shook the Pacific island nation earlier this week. The death toll was still unclear, though at least 14 people were killed according to an earlier statement from ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
How diplomats have broken the law in NZ – and what happened next

A handful of foreign diplomats have misbehaved during their time here - and not all of them have been brought to justice. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Swim schools report sinking enrolments as downturn deepens

Being able to swim is often considered a life skill, but tough economic times are forcing many families to pull their children out of lessons. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 days ago
‘There will be deaths because of this’ – Warning over Health NZ IT cuts

A West Coast IT worker is warning patients will die as Health New Zealand aims to slash its data and digital staff. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 days ago
Polytech sales possible but unlikely when Te Pūkenga disestablished – minister

In a surprise move, the sale of polytechnics will be on the table when the national institute of technology Te Pūkenga is disestablished. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 days ago
Parliament’s final sitting day an insight into party factions

On Parliament's last day of the year, there was a rare glimpse of the factions within the major parties. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 days ago
Former Labour MP, North Shore mayor Ann Hartley dies

Former Labour MP and mayor of Auckland's North Shore City Ann Hartley has died. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 days ago
The closest thing Australian cartooning had to a prophet: the sometimes celebrated, sometimes contro...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard Scully, Professor in Modern History, University of New England Bunker. Image courtesy of Michael Leunig, CC BY-NC-SA Michael Leunig – who died in the early hours of Thursday December 19, surrounded by “his children, loved ones, and sunflowers” – was the ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

3 days ago

Open mike 20/07/2012

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