Open mike 21/07/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 21st, 2023 - 73 comments
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73 comments on “Open mike 21/07/2023 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300931923/stores-within-stores-the-loophole-dairies-exploit-in-vape-store-restrictions

    What's the point of electing a supposed left wing for the people government if they allow another generation to get addicted to something that will in all likelihood lead to their early deaths.

    Just ban all public sails of vapes, prescription only for those quitting smoking.

    • Patricia Bremner 1.1

      Yes, the Health Minister has this wrong. I agree, as an addict to nicotine for many years, helped to stop by patches, I despair that these children are getting hooked again. The tobacco industry has just shifted their nicotine vehicle to vapes. Your suggestion would slow this uptake.

    • adam 1.2

      Party vote Te Pāti Māori is an option bwaghorn.

      As it's young Māori women who are addicted the most, and who we need most, for all our future. So the nicotine companies can bugger right the %$$#@@#%$@^^@& off.

  2. Muttonbird 2

    Was at the football last night, but missed the goal of course 🙁

    Full stadium with 42,000 in attendance. The crowd started quiet, Kiwis generally unsure about football, but became vocal and electric as the game went on, hanging off every defensive and attacking win.

    Amazing scenes.

    • Bearded Git 2.1

      I was watching on TV and was a couple of minutes late getting back after half time and missed the goal of course. But I saw the other 98 minutes…wonderful.

      • Roy Cartland 2.1.1

        It was a stupendous, clinical and perfectly executed goal. The machine was in full motion, they'd opened the door, all they had to do was walk through, and they did with aplomb. There was a moment I was afraid she wouldn't pass for the old one-two, but she did and it was smashed in with gusto. Made it look easy, but it was anything but.

        Tremendous.

        • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1

          The initial pass to Hand was superb.

          I'm going to the Switzerland game in Dunners and hoping that NZ will have already qualified by then.

          • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1.1

            The initial pass to Hand was superb.

            Indiah-Paige Riley, nicked off Australia by Klimková.

            • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Thanks Mutton….didn't know that.

            • alwyn 2.1.1.1.1.2

              "The initial pass to Hand was superb."

              I read that and thought you must have been quoting Maradona after the 1986 World Cup quarter final match against England.

    • Mike the Lefty 2.2

      For the last ten minutes it was like "blow the bloody full-time whistle, won't you!"

      A great moment for the Black Ferns. They played the game of their lives and kept their cool under pressure.

      • Michael P 2.2.1

        "A great moment for the Black Ferns."

        Yep.

        How did the Football Ferns go though?

    • Hunter Thompson II 2.3

      I saw the match on TV and waited (with my usual cynicism) for the NZ team to behave as if they'd never seen each other before, giving the ball away under the slightest suggestion of pressure, coupled with poor ball control, slow reactions and all the rest.

      Not so. I was amazed at their passing. They owned the mid-field for the first half at least, never letting Norway settle on the ball and defended well.

      And the goal reminded me of Man City at work in Premier League.

  3. Sanctuary 3

    In 1908 the Wright Brothers took their aeroplane to Europe and in a series of flights utterly dispelled the large numbers of doubters that they were the first proper aviators – the French in particular had dismissed them as "bluffers".

    Leading French aviation promoter Ernest Archdeacon wrote:

    "For a long time, the Wright brothers have been accused in Europe of bluff (largely by the likes of Mr. Archdeacon it has to be mentioned) … They are today hallowed in France, and I feel an intense pleasure … to make amends."

    After this comment – https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-07-2023/#comment-1960596 – I feel the need to make pleasurable amends to the ladies of our national soccer team – after I have finished the delicious plate of hat I promised to consume if we won. My dear wife kindly baked the hat for me this morning with, I have to say, an indecent amount of alacrity given my discomfiture.

    So well done to them, onto the knockout stages!

  4. miravox 4

    An inconvenient truth: you can’t sell the green revolution to people who can’t afford it

    In the UK, but we have echoes here. Basically the middle-classes have to give up something, because the poor simply can't afford to – e.g. they need to buy the organic milk at the organic store, rather than skiting about how cheap they can get it from pak 'n save. Take the public transport instead of calling a bus a losermobile. Pay the taxes for trains 'n things. It put NZs car discount and energy schemes into perspective.

    Investing in changing what is happening in the atmosphere, water and land the only to mainstream change. The article ignores the massive consumption of the super-rich (as usual) and corporations (as usual) none of us can afford for them to be exempt from the changes required to keep pollution in all it's forms at bay – there's a crisis of everything now.

    • Sanctuary 4.1

      Having impoverished the working class, the rich now use that poverty as a wedge issue to delay action on climate change.

      • miravox 4.1.1

        I pretty much agree with this, it's also the manipulation of the individual, each with little power, to solve a whole of society problem while at the same time the people with the ability to make the big changes are kicking it to the kerb.

    • weka 4.2

      Completely agree. And we're getting to the point now where it's ok to talk about sacrifices.

      One of the things that should help is narratives, lots of them, that show that the middle classes can improve their lives by making the changes now.

      There also needs to be a lot of education about how bad things will get if we don't act now, so acting now is also self interest (or interest in one's kids/grandkids). But that has to be done along side education about our potential pathways for transition.

      I think the framing for working and underclass people needs to change though. Not so much 'they don't have to do anything', but 'we're all in this together and even small things help'. How can lower income people transition? What does that look like for them? How can they be supported? The idea that people can be upwardly mobile to a consumerist middle class lifestyle has to change to something like laterally mobile to a better standard of living that fits with transition without the whole money will save us bullshit.

      What if a UBI enabled someone to quit their second job at night, and they got to spend more time with their kids?

      Or the local council funded community gardening and people's grocery bills decreased.

      • Phillip ure 4.2.1

        The seeming ignoring of the 'self interest' aspect of/from enacting meaningful legislation/lifestyle changes to try to stem/slow/lessen the ever escalating effects from what we have done to the planet..has long puzzled me..

        How could self-interest to the degree that our very survival could be under threat..be so ignored..?

        Lemmings are standing back.. laughing/pointing at humanity…as we rush.. self-propelled..towards our own cliff..

        (Would you like some bacon with that..?..)

        • tWiggle 4.2.1.1

          Because of active and massive funding of propaganda by energy companies and others who benefit ftom oil and gas use.

          This 2013 Smithsonian article estimated a billion dollars pa spend. It's only got cheaper and more pervasive. My very intelligent son and his dad pfft man-made climate change. It comes packaged up with entry-level CT stuff. Say it a thousand times and probably 60% sticks.

        • Sanctuary 4.2.1.2

          Well, no point gilding the lilly on this one. A majority people in developed countries are concerned about climate change, but not so concerned they want to do anything about it to the extent of chaning their lifestyle or even accepting a lower standard of living. Why? Because they all deep down imagine they are rich enough to ride it out, and the people who will die in their nameless millions come from places they don't care about.

          • tWiggle 4.2.1.2.1

            Because non-incremental change comes from governments, not people. The governments get bought out too, in one way or another.

            As a very small example of societal inertia against a positive environmental change, remember the extended and loud moaning of the legion who liked the free bin liners their plastic disposable supermarket bags represented. And opposition was unfunded for that particular step change.

            • Belladonna 4.2.1.2.1.1

              A rather unfortunate example, considering the subsequent increase in plastic bin liners for sale at the supermarkets. What used to be 'free' you now have to pay for…. Of course the supermarkets were happy to transition!

              • tWiggle

                Some of those are biodegradable choices. I use newspaper from the local throwaway rag or real estate freebie. Or you can forgo the liner, and many will. And wasn't it around a billion bags removed from the environment?

                Your comment rather makes my point.

                • Belladonna

                  I thought the market opportunity the supermarkets immediately exploited rather made your point.

                  The biodegradable plastic bag options sold in NZ aren't biodegradable in landfill.

                  • tWiggle

                    Say that 1.5 mi multiperson/family households used 2 supermarket bags per week to line their bins, 400 single person households used 1 bag a week = 166 mi bags per annum. That's 10-15% of the actual bags produced, leaving 85% of plastic shopping bags as plain rubbish, versus the reuseable bag options we have now.

                    In the good old days of non-tabloid newspapers, my mother would sew four sheets together round three edges to line the big bin outside, where non-compostible kitchen rubbish went at the end of each day.

                    This being Wellington, dirty-faced men with big burlap sacks would slope their way through your section to the bin once a week, and heave-ho the rubbish out to their trucks. They certainly were fit.

                    This life experience has perhaps shaped my values on bins and liners and plastic shopping bags.

            • Sanctuary 4.2.1.2.1.2

              Well today we've seen the astonishing sight of a main stream media keener on whipping up a law and order panic over yesterday's Auckland shootings than our politicians. RNZ actually had a dude saying it looks like something may have gone wrong so we need an inquiry to if anyone is to blame and Corin Dann went onto the attack with the police minister with pompous statements masquerading as questions relating to a law and order scandal that no one else could see.

              The coverage in the MSM of the tragic triple murders in Timaru is literally obscene and hovers close to deviant voyeurism.

              Given that that sort of febrile, post truth hysteria passes as routine for even "respectable" news coverage in NZ is it really surprising that any attempt of the government to do anything that impacts on anyones standard of living is met with wall to wall vox pops of people whining about it? Remember, in our post truth media facts don't matter – it is how you feel that counts. Why, TVNZ was interviewing people on the street about their opinion on who is to blame for the slips on the new Puhoi to Warkworth motorway the other night, as if the view of some 68 year old retired dude picking up milk at the local Four Square is of any relevance whatsover.

              And therein lies a huge governance problem for climate change policies. The MSM likes to talk endlessly interview each other in an exasperated and perplexed tone about the rise of misinformation, fake news, inchoate anger, climate denial and conspiracy theories that are stoked to resisit real political action on climate change – but they'll never admit that in their own post truth news coverage where their audience is constantly told their angry and ignorant opinion on any topic is as valid as an experts is delivering an audience already primed to take to the same misinformation, fake news, inchoate anger, climate denial and conspiracy theories propagated on social media that they spend so much time hand wringing about.

              • tWiggle

                This shooting does not sound like a predictable, or preventable event. He rang family and told them he loved them the night before. He'd had a visit with his parole officer the day before, which rang no bells, or not enough to predict his violent attack.

                Without his social media history, there is no telling what pushed him to a suicide by cop choice, which is what this was.

              • Belladonna

                "where their audience is constantly told their angry and ignorant opinion on any topic is as valid as an experts"

                I feel this started with the interviewing of celebrities on any topic of popular interest. X may be an outstanding rugby player, and his opinion is possibly valuable on rugby in general; but he has nothing informed to offer on politics, economics or crime.

                Celebrities 'using' their status to influence is a pernicious trend.

          • weka 4.2.1.2.2

            pretty much. Even where it's hitting NZ, it's relatively easy to ignore the West Coast or Hawkes Bay. Am kind of surprised about Aucklanders though.

          • adam 4.2.1.2.3

            Because they all deep down imagine they are rich enough to ride it out, and the people who will die in their nameless millions come from places they don't care about.

            I'd suggest a smug sense of entitled racism exists in the west. But, who would have thought it with all the newspeak we have??!?

      • Sanctuary 4.2.2

        A UBI is always a bad idea. How about advocating for an UBS – Universal Basic Services? Guarantee people accessd to a raft of free basic services?

        Affordable housing

        Guaranteed sustenance

        Universal health care

        Free education

        Free and frequent public transport

        Free information (access to libraries and internet)

        Guaranteed public safety (police, fire, courts)

        Universal justice (access to the legal system for everyone)

        If a political party adopted UBS as a principle, it can build election policy from it.

        For example, I am a strong advocate of the government requiring all ISPs to zero rate the cost of data to any .govt.nz site, and the government being a free ISP of last resort for people who for whatever reason have no access to a contract with a private ISP.

        The government ISP would simply only whitelist .govt.nz sites, and could run a portal giving access to, say, .rnz.co.nz or .ac.nz domains – it might even do deals to whitelist private sector partners to it's portal.

        • bwaghorn 4.2.2.1

          Yip that's my preferredethod rather than handing cash out and subsidizing rents.

        • Ad 4.2.2.2

          +100

        • AB 4.2.2.3

          Yes. A UBI is unlikely to ever be set at a level that would guarantee the ability to purchase from a market those services you describe – and a UBI is too easily managed downwards by hostile governments to a level of the ugliest subsistence.

          UBS on the other hand risks being seen as a 'vision', an end goal that never really arrives. And it lends itself to niggardly forms of targeting or voucherisation by those same hostile governments. It is impossible to actually live decently without cash in the pocket and a bit of financial padding in the bank. So ideally we would see both UBI and UBS working together.

          • Sanctuary 4.2.2.3.1

            I don't understand why some people on the left advocate for a UBI. A UBI is a libertarian wet dream, the ultimate neoliberal expression of an atomised society made up of notional, individual, and rational economic actors with perfect information.

            A UBI gives the libertarians and plutocrats the fig leaf they need to walk away from any form of responsibility for society. Sure, for a while the UBI will be OK – but the right will say "oh, you don't need free or compulsory state education – here is your UBI education vouchers" or "Health? You can buy private insurance with your UBI" or "You can't get enough to eat? Not my problem, you get a UBI!" And right wing governments will tinker with the amount – the value of the UBI will dwindle away to nothing over time, while the plutocrats get tax cuts.

            UBS implicity says we are part of a society, that we have duties to fund and support basic services, we measure how successful we are as a society in providing those service, and we find ways to pay for those basic services.

        • adam 4.2.2.4

          A ubi will eventually lead to a Republic of Haven. Which in my opinion, is hell in space.

          https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Republic_of_Haven

          • tWiggle 4.2.2.4.1

            RoH was a mash-up of a never-ending revolutionary state with an entrenched bureaucracy, a soft stand-in for nominal socialism ruled by a political elite.

            The positive option presented in that SF universe, as I remember, is a benign capitalist monarchy with an ennobled technocratic ruling class. Charles III Rex, with a helping of Baron Musk, anyone? No, thanks.

        • Roy Cartland 4.2.2.5

          With you on this one, then we don't need a ubi

        • Patricia Bremner 4.2.2.6

          100% agree Sanctuary.

        • miravox 4.2.2.7

          ^^this

      • miravox 4.2.3

        "One of the things that should help is narratives"

        I read somewhere about the framing of climate disaster and being caused by pollution is easier to understand that talking about gasses and climate that people can't see. "pollution" also enables us to talk about all those other environmental crisis points. Working on something like regenerative farming ticks a lot of preventative and restorative boxes, for example.

        I honestly don't know how lower income people can transition or even support reduction in planet-sapping activities, unless the actions they take due to necessity (e,g, taking public transport) are made better and are considered valid transport choices rather than class signifiers.

        Agree with the laterally mobile concept – the unreachable goal of upward mobility is destroying the working class as well as the planet.

        But look…. pot holes!

        • Anne 4.2.3.1

          "Pot holes" are the 2023 version of the 2008 "shower heads and light bulb" controversies. It says something about NAct's M.O. that they have to rely on contrived scandals in order to win over the voters. Not sure its going to work this time around.

          • miravox 4.2.3.1.1

            I get your point (and NAct got through because of that campaign for the right to not care about limits – even the most sensible). But lighbulbs and showerheads supported the idea that growth was not infinite. Pot holes does exactly the opposite – drive those beasts!

            Depressing how we've gotten worse in terms of all things environmental, rather than more aware of our trashing of the planet.

  5. bwaghorn 5

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132581670/commerce-minister-wants-to-see-supermarkets-super-profits-come-down

    $430 million a year sounds like alot , but it works out at about $1.70 per person per week in nz, is it really worth the time and $ having a big commission enquiry

    • arkie 5.1

      That's excess profits, that's over and above what is considered a fair profit, so that's $430 million more than they need to be functioning and profitable enterprise. $1.70 per week is $88.40 per person per year and I'm certain there are plenty of people who could use that money better than it just accumulating in supermarket owners pockets.

    • Phillip ure 5.2

      While your cost/benefit analysis point is a valid one..I see this as more an attempt to fix in some form of long-term accountability to a duopoly that has been screwing us since forever..

      That goal negates that short term shortfall you identify ..

      • Phillip ure 5.2.1

        What also needs to be addressed is the localised gouging by the duopoly..

        A recent example:..waiuku only has one of the duopoly..a new world..and boy..!..do they gouge..!

        Pam's basic soy milk $3.50…in pak 'n save..in pukekohe..$1.99…

        The examples of this are legion..

        • Cricklewood 5.2.1.1

          In essence the individual supermarkets set pricing to cover costs and then make a relatively small (in percentage terms, large in $ terms) net margin at the end of the year. In very simplistic terms they're looking at a formula that calculates markup needed based on available shelf space to achieve the above.

          The size / turnover of the supermarket has a massive effect on the pricing to achieve the above. To use your Soymilk as an example the New World might only sell half the units the Pack n Save does but utilizing the same volume of available shelf space in the store hence its sold at a much higher price.

          Where the duopoly really hurts us is a layer back that supplies into the supermarkets.

          • Sanctuary 5.2.1.1.1

            In countries with supermarket competition the supermarkets will loss lead on staples – milk, bread, onions, pasta. Governments also routinely don't apply GST/VAT taxes on a basket of staples. That might include a range of dry, tinned or frozen goods. NOT fresh fruit and vegetables, which is the sort of dumb thing middle class people who can afford a high level of spoilage worry about and call for in the media.

            If NZ had proper supermarket competition with a range of loss leading staples plus a government list of, say, 50-100 basic food items that don't attract GST the impact on the cost of weekly shopping for cash-strapped families would be considerable.

          • Phillip ure 5.2.1.1.2

            Re new world waiuku/pam's soy milk..

            It is a big mover..big shelf space..often sells out..

            It’s gouging…pure and simple..

        • Sanctuary 5.2.1.2

          Avondale market just last Sunday – Chinese man selling fresh firm tofu for a few dollars, he cuts to size by eye, and bags it for you and for 500g you get change from a fiver.

          Countdown at St Lukes charges $16 for the same amount.

        • bwaghorn 5.2.1.3

          You want to try ohakune new world, its over an hour to the nearest town that has anything other than a new world.

          • Sanctuary 5.2.1.3.1

            Ohakune New World exists to soak all the skiiers from Grey Lynn.

            • bwaghorn 5.2.1.3.1.1

              Long supply line I guess ,although I did go to countdown whanganui recently didn't think it was much cheaper .

    • adam 5.3

      Yes.

      An informed public is a participating public.

    • Ad 5.4

      Wanaka's 2 supermarkets are both New World for 11,000 residents.

      There's a wee 4 Square and a tiny Woolworths pickup point.

      As the prophet Roger Whittaker said,

      "Everybody talks about a New World in the morning; don't they know tomorrow never comes."

  6. psych nurse 6

    Some six weeks ago the Minister of Health officially opened fantastic new facilities at Hillmorton Hospital to replace the maligned old PMH site. Did the large media presence report this good news story, hell no, they are only interested in bad news stories. Nothing there to beat the Government about the head with.

  7. Phillip ure 7

    On rnz now:

    Isn't gimme shelter by the rolling stones..one of the best songs ever…?

    It works on me..every time..

  8. tWiggle 8

    Uxbridge and Ruslip, Boris's old seat, retained by Conservatives by 500 votes in yesterday’s by-election, down from Johnson's 7000 majority. Looks like UK Labour didn't do quite enough campaigning, by a smigeon. However, they have requested a recount.

    Voter turnout, at 46%, was lower by 17% than 2019 (around 7000 votes). So Boris’s admirers stayed home.

    Labour blame the result on a low-emission zone proposal from Sadiq Khan, London's Labour major that would affect locals.

    • Sanctuary 8.1

      “…Labour blame the result on a low-emission zone proposal from Sadiq Khan, London’s Labour major that would affect locals…”

      No, this has to be owned by Starmer and the Labour right.

      This is an enormous slap in the face Keir "sinusitis" Starmer and the authoritarian right faction of the party he's surrounded himself with.

      The UK Labour right's purge of the left using weaponised anti-semitism and retrospective trial by fiat in an attempt to out Tory the Tories on the right to toady up to the Murdoch press is going to be a massive misfire.

      Let's be honest about this – if Starmer and his merry band of MOSSAD sleepers can't win the next election, Labour in the UK is finished.

      • tWiggle 8.1.1

        Jamie Driscoll, the very successful mayor in the North of England was pushed out of re-running by Starmer and Labour Central. Stalinist-type erasure.

        Politics Joe interviews Driscoll, who resigned from Labour two days again to run as an independent, after crowd-funding enough for his campaign in 24 h. A good listen of a clear thinker, who says he believes that Britain should be run for the benefit of the people who do the work.

    • observer 8.2

      Much worse for the Tories, they have managed to lose 2 ultra-safe rural seats, both Tory heartland, one each to Labour and the Liberal Democrats. People voted tactically for the best placed anti-government candidate.

      Taking all three together, it's a disaster for the Tories. And to put it in perspective, much, much worse than anti-government sentiment in NZ.

      • Anne 8.2.1

        It will be the old story though observer. The Tories stayed at home and didn't vote to deliver a warning to their government. But when their election rolls around (1924?) they will be voting Tory again.

  9. SPC 9

    The huge difference in support for Labour – women under 50 and women over 50 is something for the government to consider. And vice versa among men.

    A JA effect, or something else?

    I'd recommend something direct, such as allowing those with partners independent access to income support (no work test till children are age 2).

    And adjusting the independent earner tax credit.

    It has not changed since introduction in 2009

    https://www.gra.co.nz/articles-by-john-rowe/independent-earner-tax-credit

    ($24,000 and $44,000 – you get $10 per week; $44,001 and $48,000 – your entitlement reduces by 13 cents for every dollar you earn over $44,000).

    It should apply in the minimum wage to median wage c$40-60,000 band (more people get it).

    https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9292-nz-national-voting-intention-june-2023

  10. SPC 10

    Europe, please remember: the current heatwave is tough. But your kids will remember it as the coldest summer of their lifetime.

    https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/1680525859038404609

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