Open mike 21/09/2019

105 comments on “Open mike 21/09/2019 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. A 1

   21 September 2019 at 8:34 am

   “To the economically illiterate, if some company makes a million dollars in profit, this means that their products cost a million dollars more than they would have cost without profits. It never occurs to such people that these products might cost several million dollars more to produce than if they were produced by enterprises operating without the incentives to be efficient created by the prospect of profits.”

   — Thomas Sowell

   Hmmm.

   [Changed the font and added WP blockquote using Editor for clarity. Bold is for specific emphasis – if you bold the whole quoted text it come across as shouting – Incognito]
   • Sacha 1.1

     21 September 2019 at 8:39 am

     Are you worried people will not read your quote if you do not make the whole thing bold?
     • greywarshark 1.1.1

       21 September 2019 at 10:04 am

       Now and then being 'bold' can be justified. But of course if used too often it loses its effectiveness, ie our minds get used to it, it just becomes more of the same, or we get irrritated and turn away.

       But so much of our societal habits and practices are usual, accepted and unexamined. Like always wanting higher profits and lower wages. Labour costs are commonly the biggest costs that a firm can face; so that maybe they reflect the truth of how things should be.

       And something that the quote of Thomas Sewell does not mention, is that the profits that are found high enough to be satisfactory, often are that way because economic externalities have been left out.

       That is no money has been paid out or withheld to pay for past damage to workers or the environment and none has gone into studying and implementing practices to prevent future damage. The rest of society bears that cost, which is exponential we find when we look at all the results on the ground and in Climate Change itself.
       • Sacha 1.1.1.1

         21 September 2019 at 10:07 am

         In this place, whole sentences in bold tend to be moderators' comments.
         • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.1

           21 September 2019 at 11:26 am

           I think this is a place for people's thoughts and minds to exchange and learn from each other. Shouldn't that be encouraged, not reduced by rules set by long practice which may be discouraging in this era of disruption which we need to face, discuss and understand? There need to be limits but not too rigid. The times demand we shake ourselves and open up our brains.

           A quote and a query comes to mind. Do we understand why the quote below from Shortland Street has longevity? That might offer us a 'Being John Malkovich' (film) window to our psyche, ie

           "You're not in Guatemala now, Dr Ropata."

           Setting authoritarian and rigid rules has not worked; we see by the mess and despair around us amongst a majority of people. We need looser rules to make us do what the PTB decided and agreed rules to guide us to an amicable living rather than just civil. Can we achieve a new way to handle our future with many hands on it, of people stepping forward who are thoughtful, informed, considered, and collaborative, and whose decisions are practical and mindful of the effect on all.

           I was listening to Radionz this morning with Kim Hill and other interesting speakers. (Do others know Lloyd Cole's music?) One is an author, Sarah Moss from the UK, who I thought had some good ideas. We who are thinking and not just doing, take in and give out ideas, and are trying to be collaborative. So I mention this interview as likely to be interesting to others. I feel good when i hear people who have good ideas and hopes for a human future. Maybe you do too.

           Perhaps we need to think about thinking. Against the ordinary citizen are people who study how our minds work and create propaganda that pushes our personal buttons. We need to understand ourselves and the things that they learn. So this from one google listing on brainstorming.

           https://business.tutsplus.com/articles/top-brainstorming-techniques–cms-27181

           19 Top Brainstorming Techniques to Generate Ideas for Every Situation

           A few techniques for this type of brainstorming include Step Ladder Brainstorming, Round Robin Brainstorming, Rapid Ideation, and Trigger Storming.

           • Step Ladder Brainstorming. Start by sharing the brainstorming challenge with everyone in the room. …
           • Round Robin Brainstorming. …
           • Rapid Ideation. …
           • Trigger Storming.
     • A 1.1.2

       21 September 2019 at 6:13 pm

       Sorry I just copied + pasted and it was bold. Didn't think.
       • Sacha 1.1.2.1

         21 September 2019 at 6:24 pm

         All good. Enjoy your eve.
   • Pat 1.2

     21 September 2019 at 8:57 am

     operative word being 'might'
     • greywarshark 1.2.1

       21 September 2019 at 10:08 am

       It's a pity that when someone puts up a statement or quote that has said something to them and they share it, another person tries to find some small aspect of it that can be used to dismiss the main point of it. Dont uou think? (I am putting some errors into my discourse so you can find something easy to comment on!)
       • Pat 1.2.1.1

         21 September 2019 at 11:04 am

         you may not recognise the importance of the caveat.

         the proverb dosnt say "profit is the mother of invention"
       • Sacha 1.2.1.2

         21 September 2019 at 11:19 am

         'Some small aspect' – or a fundamental flaw..
         • greywarshark 1.2.1.2.1

           21 September 2019 at 11:33 am

           Ah there's the rub. Let's proceed. I can't I must be in the garden but have put up my think piece to add to the fertile field of thought here on this blog. Good growing!
           • sumsuch 1.2.1.2.1.1

             22 September 2019 at 12:45 am

             I do think points of order matter but it's rather tiring. Prefer them to everything but the major matter. You lot ( except me when I want amusement) are terrible. This isn't a Left amusement park, but as a letters depositary that's how it ends up. Climate change, end of resources and the poorest of us, are everything. In comparison, nothing else matters.
   • Sacha 1.3

     21 September 2019 at 9:09 am

     How would this economist manage to ignore lots of factors including externalities? Ah, by being another of these dolts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

     He writes from a libertarian conservative perspective, advocating supply-side economics.
     • arkie 1.3.1

       21 September 2019 at 9:23 am

       Sowell has praised the knowledge and preparation of radio talk shows hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and G. Gordon Liddy.

       Wikipedia

       Oof.
   • Adrian Thornton 1.4

     21 September 2019 at 9:19 am

     Finally someone with a platform being honest and talking about class struggle…time for those companies making millions in profit to share that wealth around with the workers… and here is something that deserves to be bold

     Bernie Sanders' Union Platform Calls for Class Struggle
     • joe90 1.4.1

       21 September 2019 at 9:50 am

       What took him so long?

       https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4779589/class-warfare
       • Adrian Thornton 1.4.1.1

         21 September 2019 at 11:01 am

         I don't think you will see Warren making a big issue with class warfare going forward ( I could be wrong here) I have noticed her rhetoric has shifted to more of a defending the 'hard working middle class' as of late, which would fit in nicely with her new role as saviour of the establishment DNC, I mean she has been obliquely endorsed by the Koch Bros funded Third Way think tank after all…but then you seem to be status quo centrist kind of guy, so I can see how Warren would tick all your boxes…you guys are all about being pragmatic and compromise, even as we head faster and faster toward the cliff…you are like “can’t we slow down just a bit..please”

         Warren emerges as potential compromise nominee

         https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/19/democratic-establishment-elizabeth-warren-136987

         Why Elizabeth Warren doesn’t scare many moderate (read establishment) Democrats..

         https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/campaigns/article231718348.html

         “She believes in capitalism, amazingly we have to say this, but that matters. What she’s offering is not a rejection of capitalism.”

         “She is not tipping over the edge into what is absolutely unsustainable in a general election,” he added. “Our principle problem with Sanders is that he has.”
         • joe90 1.4.1.1.1

           21 September 2019 at 11:24 am

           I have noticed her rhetoric has shifted to more of a defending the 'hard working middle class' as of late,

           Warren was on message long before the advent of St Bern.

           https://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-viral-video-of-elizabeth-warren-going-after-gop-on-class-warfare-2011-9?

           Why Elizabeth Warren doesn’t scare many moderate (read establishment) Democrats..

           Yet she scares the money men.

           https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1171500839686590464

           https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/delivering-alpha-elizabeth-warren-presidency-causes-a-scare.html
           • Adrian Thornton 1.4.1.1.1.1

             21 September 2019 at 11:34 am

             "Yet she scares the money men." you really think so? ..I guess that's why she had the tick from Third Way then, cos they like scaring themselves.

             Look 90, warren is pretty good,of course and no doubt or argument from me, but she is also a shaping up as the compromise candidate for the establishment to back. and they really are scared of Bernie, shit scared, because unlike Warren , he wants real systemic change, he is the only one who will actually 'rock the boat'..and that is just a fact.
             • joe90 …

               21 September 2019 at 12:00 pm

               the tick from Third Way

               What tick?

               Anyhoo, you rock the boat to build movements suitability large enough to affect real, systemic change. Any movement large enough to affect real, systemic change must include the centre and unless he can capture the centre, Sander's won't be able to deliver squat.
             • Stuart Munro. …

               21 September 2019 at 12:25 pm

               I like her. I'd prefer Bernie of course, but she comes across as smart, hard-headed, and looking to address the drivers of many US problems. If the DNC can be persuaded to abandon self-sabotage sufficiently to let go of Biden, Warren can probably beat Trump. If not though, there's that thing about those who refuse to learn the lessons of history.
               • Adrian Thornton …

                 21 September 2019 at 12:36 pm

                 I like her too, but lets face it Bernie is the only one who could possibly change the direction of the US in a real and meaningful way, infact he is the only one who wants too, Warren will end up being like Helen Clark ..thats why Third way like her, in her (Warren's) own words a capitalist to her bones.
                 • The Chairman …

                   21 September 2019 at 12:59 pm

                   Hi Adrian.

                   Just wanted to thank you for your support last week.
                   • Adrian Thornton …

                     21 September 2019 at 3:59 pm

                     No worries, comradeship is what attracted me to Left politics when I was a very young man, and is still what I believe is it's real power.

                     I guess that is why it is always under assault from those in power, and those (like many here unfortunately) on the left who have drunk the kool aid of neoliberalism…it's a damn shame.
                 • McFlock …

                   21 September 2019 at 3:07 pm

                   What do you think Bernie will do/achieve as POTUS?

                   He'll have a couple of years of both houses, if enough dem reps are on board with his plan.

                   He might get one or two big hits, like Obama did with healthcare. Or Warren might with campaign finance reform.

                   But he's not the Chosen One. He's just a man. You're setting yourself up for another four years of bitterness, and that's if he gets elected. If he misses the nom, we'll never hear the end of it. Again.
                   • Siobhan …

                     21 September 2019 at 3:20 pm

                     So far 'All' he's done is entirely move the conversation, and that's just as a candidate.

                     He allows the population who are suffering under a corrupted, ineficient and inhumane system of Health Care, Education, Housing, Employment..realise they can in fact demand better service and protections from their elected Representatives.

                     There is a reason the Corporate powers and DNC would rather he exited stage left…and its not because he has no power to bring about change..
                   • McFlock …

                     21 September 2019 at 4:05 pm

                     Sanders shifted the conversation in 2016 – and it shifted even further last year, from within the Democratic party.

                     As a president, how much do you think he could actually get done?

                     Reforming healthcare requires both houses to cooperate, and SCOTUS to defeat any legal challenges.

                     Reforming administration requires budgetary approval from the legislature.

                     Can he unilaterally end US hegemony around the world?

                     Change minimum wage levels?

                     Role back the attack on reproductive healthcare?
                   • Adrian Thornton …

                     21 September 2019 at 4:25 pm

                     "from within the Democratic party" WTF..really? where exactly did you get that totally outrageous fake news from?…the Russians maybe?
                   • McFlock …

                     21 September 2019 at 4:45 pm

                     From the fact that many of the #metoo wave of candidates, including Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, were members of and activists for the Democrats (and its state affiliates) for more than a few years before 2016.

                     Bernie did change the conversation, but he was an outsider looking to use the Democrat Party machinery. He wasn't a lifelong Democrat. Many of the #metoo crowd are.

                     Maybe Rose McGowan had a stronger effect on the dems than St Bernie did.
                   • Adrian Thornton …

                     21 September 2019 at 5:45 pm

                     I don't think they would like to be described as " #metoo candidates", as I am sure their platform encompasses a little more than that one issue, and further, if you really don't understand that all the progressive gains recently are directly the result of the momentum and energy created by Bernie Sanders, then I would say you have seriously misread the direction of US politics since 2016.
                   • McFlock …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:01 pm

                     Noice.

                     You get precious about the terminology I used to denote a wave of candidates who decided 2018 was the time to put themselves forward, and then you dismiss literally all the work they did in the democratic party before Bernie became a member and continue as democrats after he got re-elected to senate as an independent.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:26 pm

                     St Julian. St Bernie! Can I get a St Greta? Preys Jaysus.
                   • The Al1en …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:30 pm

                     Can I get a St Greta?

                     Only if it's for the greta good
                   • McFlock …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:36 pm

                     People do seem to be warming to her around the globe. Must be some sort of expression for that, like "world-wide mellowing".
                 • The Chairman …

                   21 September 2019 at 7:00 pm

                   @ Adrian Thornton (at 3:59 pm)

                   
         • sumsuch 1.4.1.1.2

           22 September 2019 at 1:07 am

           Sanders fights. It's the right attitude. He talks. Warren making agreements with corrupt power doesne impress. Everything needs to be overthrown. Power needs to bow to the people. No agreement needs to be made with the present. This makes me think he should choose Tulsi Gabbard as his vice-president. But I don't think that plutocracy will allow him.

           I'm saying revolution. Or nothing for our youngers.
   • joe90 1.5

     21 September 2019 at 9:44 am

     Sowell.

     Really?
   • Incognito 1.6

     21 September 2019 at 10:05 am

     See my Moderation note @ 8:34 AM.
   • joe90 1.7

     21 September 2019 at 10:24 am

     And while we're bolding.

     Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers’ goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

     – Albert Einstein

     [Left the bold (!) but changed the font and added WP blockquote using Editor for clarity. Italics is for specific emphasis and effect – if you italicise the whole quoted text it loses its effect – Incognito]
     • greywarshark 1.7.1

       21 September 2019 at 10:37 am

       Good quote. Thanks Joe90.
     • Incognito 1.7.2

       21 September 2019 at 11:04 am

       See my Moderation note @ 10:24 AM.
       • joe90 1.7.2.1

         21 September 2019 at 11:33 am

         I've always block quoted comments I reply to and italicised text I cite.

         Do you have a link to TS's style new guide?
         • Incognito 1.7.2.1.1

           21 September 2019 at 11:52 am

           There is no “TS's style new guide” because it would have been forewarned and announced loudly and clearly and quite possibly after some consultation. That said, Lynn does try to improve the text Editor and other things here by making technical adjustments with various success, as you know.

           I think you might be taking my Moderation note as some kind of authoritarian instruction, when it is/was actually meant to be read as a suggestion. If you don’t agree with the suggestion to improve clarity of comments, I’m keen to hear it and the reason(s) why. Blockquotes and quotation marks have a special function as does font style; I think they are there for a reason. Please don’t get too alarmed and/or read too much into being ‘moderated’.

           Lastly, I thought it was obvious that I was not ‘moderating’ in a vacuum but in the context of the comment @ 1 and the reactions it elicited.

           I apologise if I did upset you, as this was not my intention. NB some commenters here have an idiosyncratic style that’s beyond reprieve 😉
         • Sacha 1.7.2.1.2

           21 September 2019 at 12:05 pm

           I’ve always block quoted comments I reply to and italicised text I cite.

           Tricky when you have a mixture of quotes like that. I seem to have started italicising short initial ones from other commenters like this, but doubt there is any right way.

           Accessibility work taught me it is harder for people to read lots of italics, capitals, or bold. Most of us can test that pretty easily by just reading an average paragraph in different formats..

           FOR INSTANCE, DO YOUR EYES GET MORE TIRED READING A WHOLE CHUNK IN CAPS LIKE THIS WHEN IT GOES ON FOR MORE THAN A LINE OR TWO? MIGHT BE OKAY AS A HEADING BUT AT FOUR OR FIVE LINES THE EFFORT MAY BECOME MORE APPARENT. DOES ALSO DEPEND ON THE FONT USED. MY EYES END UP FEELING A BIT PHYSICALLY SORE THESE DAYS WHEN I ENCOUNTER THIS. HOW ABOUT YOURS?
           • weka 1.7.2.1.2.1

             21 September 2019 at 12:12 pm

             Likewise long blocks of text without paragraphs, or excessive use of ellipses (both are almost a guarantee for me not to read a comment).

             I used to use italics a fair bit, as it seems to convey quoting better than " " for longer quotes. Now I tend to use the blockquote, although it's a bit idiosyncratic (on my browser at least).

             All bold irks me because it messes with my brain over moderation bold.
             • weka …

               21 September 2019 at 12:13 pm

               current bugbear is the gaps that the editor leaves in at the bottom of comments (or between cut and pastes).
               • Incognito …

                 21 September 2019 at 12:31 pm

                 Not so long ago, I think it was after one of the iterations of the Text Editor, I embarked on a personal crusade to improve readability here and enhance readers’ experience (scrolling!). Nobody ever commented on it but I became zealously obsessed and deleted almost every non-breaking space that had no clear stylistic function other than to add unnecessary ‘whitecaps’ to each comment, big or small, and even created large deserts of white space.

                 Suffice to say, it was an exercise in futility and like carrying water to the sea using a bucket with holes in it.
                 • weka …

                   21 September 2019 at 1:12 pm

                   haha, I've been totally tempted. I edit my own, and other people's if I'm moderating. Hopefully Lynn will find a fix.
             • Sacha …

               21 September 2019 at 12:18 pm

               I do feel for you as moderators having to read all this. The new editor adding easy formatting buttons is not necessarily a good thing. 🙂
               • weka …

                 21 September 2019 at 12:24 pm

                 I really like the twitter embeds though, that might be my favourite change.
                 • xanthe …

                   21 September 2019 at 4:16 pm

                   "I really like the twitter embeds though, that might be my favourite change."

                   you do understand that these (twitter embeds) prompt each readers browser to collect a twitter cookie?
                   • weka …

                     21 September 2019 at 5:13 pm

                     what's your point there xanthe?
                   • xanthe …

                     21 September 2019 at 5:30 pm

                     not really making a point but rather referencing a previous discussion here about why do we pick up so many cookies when accessing TS

                     embedded stuff is great but there is a cost in personal data leakage
                   • weka …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:08 pm

                     "why do we pick up so many cookies when accessing TS"

                     I think most people, myself included, won't understand the implications of what you are pointing to.
                   • Sacha …

                     21 September 2019 at 6:26 pm

                     True but I do trust Twitr a lot more than Bookface on that front. Have not managed to monetise our attention very well by comparison.

                     Results from free tracking cookie manager from the EFF:

                     Privacy Badger (www.eff.org/privacybadger) is a browser extension that automatically learns to block invisible trackers. Privacy Badger is made by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit that fights for your rights online.

                     Privacy Badger found 22 potential trackers on thestandard.org.nz:

                     googleads.g.doubleclick.net
                     stats.g.doubleclick.net
                     static.doubleclick.net
                     connect.facebook.net
                     graph.facebook.com
                     fonts.googleapis.com
                     yt3.ggpht.com
                     http://www.google-analytics.com
                     http://www.google.com
                     http://www.google.co.nz
                     secure.gravatar.com
                     api.qrserver.com
                     pbs.twimg.com
                     cdn.syndication.twimg.com
                     platform.twitter.com
                     syndication.twitter.com
                     openparachute.files.wordpress.com
                     pixel.wp.com
                     s0.wp.com
                     stats.wp.com
                     http://www.youtube.com
                     i.ytimg.com
                   • lprent []

                     21 September 2019 at 10:40 pm

                     Yeah, I know. I’ve looked at this a number of times over the years.

                     We use google analytics (keep track of usage – nothing else is remotely accurate), google fonts (the fonts used on the site are from there – which is why it looks familiar across many platforms), gravatar (those personalised icons), QR (the post barcode), twitter (the shout and count on twitter icon), facebook (the shout and count on facebook icon), and wordpress.org (including the wp) because we use wordpress jetpack.

                     Of those, the twitter and the QR aren’t critical. Basically twitter is the peanuts in terms of draw and the home to a noisy minority of wordy loons, QR is only used by a small number of new readers on mobiles.

                     However some of the other cookies (what you’re calling trackers) aren’t ‘on’ the standard. They are either on your client or attached to external videos.

                     Plus of course there is a load of javascript in various portions of the site – mostly jquery. Not that much because I limit its use in favour of site longevity.

                     Down below the level you can see, there are a pile of connections to other systems. The wordfence that prevents site attacks by looking at what everyone is asking for and from where. The AWS cloudfront (via w3 total cache) that looks at the calls for every image and document on the site and supplies it from locations around the world, the AWS route 53 that does the same for the DNS, the shunting through voyager….

                     If you choose to turn all them off – then that is your issue. The site won’t be that usable without them (especially the bits of javascript – which are far more dangerous than cookies).

                     No-one could pay me enough to provide the kind of site detailing that these systems provide. Which is why they are used.. One stacked on top of the other – and they are all potential monitoring systems.

                     Plus of course there is me.

                     Welcome to the net – built in a mound of monitoring systems where the basic anonymity is that really we don’t care enough to turn over the midden enough to clear out the problems.
                   • Sacha …

                     21 September 2019 at 10:52 pm

                     It's a minimal set compared with commercial sites. Privacy Badger is an interesting tool.
2. Sacha 2

   21 September 2019 at 9:47 am

   On the pushback showing up in local politics: https://thespinoff.co.nz/local-elections/19-09-2019/the-two-loud-angry-campaigns-that-could-swing-the-auckland-local-elections/

   It’s possible the anti-change campaigners in both Chamberlain Park [golf course] and Takapuna will be a deciding factor in the final tally even if they’re a minority of the population. After decades of underinvestment in infrastructure, the city’s governing body and local boards could once again see an influx of candidates who are primarily distinguished by their ability to say no to things.
3. weka 3

   21 September 2019 at 9:54 am

   Want some feel good?

   "Be kind to one another"

   https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/1175152974240157697
4. greywarshark 4

   21 September 2019 at 10:35 am

   It seems to me that a more embracing guide for living than being kind is needed, though 'kind' helps. I believe 'kind' creates the feeling of a hippy-sounding mantra. It doesn't stand against the hard-nosed approach of the majority mired in the capitalist system, which I notice comes with a kevlar (more modern than armour) protection from receipt and acceptance of compassionate thoughts and understanding.

   What about being kind and practical in balance in everything. I think that would help us to face off the dismissal of the human condition that is prevalent in neolib economics, and Randian 'The Virtue of Selfishness'.*

   Stephen Fry discusses Ayn Rand and her works 2minsapprox

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbfy6_fMBiw

   Incidentally that is shown as coming from Radio 4. If a country has only private radio, they would not hear or see any of this sort of discussion. Instead it would be full of capitalist jargon very focussed on what were seen to be profitable subjects, ventures and discussions that would be influential in maintaining the wall against expansion of understanding and help.

   * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Virtue_of_Selfishness
5. Incognito 5

   21 September 2019 at 11:27 am

   Synchronicity at work? There seems to be more attention being paid to the use of language and rhetoric.

   It may seem pedantic to make a fuss over language, but it is important to remember the power of labelling and the connotations that go with it. It is a reminder too that we should consider how language is carefully packaged and presented to us by our politicians.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115935261/politicians-treating-labour-party-sexual-assault-allegations-as-a-game-when-it-deserves-gravitis

   Within the binary structure of language, which itself is debatable, words are defined not in and of themselves, but in relation to their opposites. This means that if a "victim" exists within this set of circumstances, then a "perpetrator" must also exist. Hence, the concept of "victim" can be used as a rhetorical tactic to assign guilt to someone in the court of public opinion.

   I think what we have seen being played out in the NZ Media recently is a classic example of a ternary (triangular) structure similar to the Karpman drama triangle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle) involving the Victim, the Rescuer, and the Persecutor (sometimes called the Perpetrator). These roles can interchange. This model describes “a type of destructive interaction that can occur between people in conflict”.

   I’m not going to assign names/entities to the three roles in this drama but like to emphasise that binary descriptions, concepts, and ‘explanations’ can be useful but can also be extremely limiting and overly simplistic depending on the context and their use or aim.
6. greywarshark 6

   21 September 2019 at 11:47 am

   Our need to think – and toss ideas round outside the envelope (is writing letters and NZ Post really a thing of the past, should we be happy to see it disappear?). Random thoughts, like the above, are they useful and valuable or just inefficient?

   The more we rely on technology to make us efficient, the fewer skills we have to confront the unexpected, says writer and entrepreneur Margaret Heffernan. She shares why we need less tech and more messy human skills — imagination, humility, bravery — to solve problems in business, government and life in an unpredictable age. "We are brave enough to invent things we've never seen before," she says. "We can make any future we choose."

   (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4OPtFCs_fw
7. weka 7

   21 September 2019 at 11:57 am

   Fucking unbelievable. That they were cavalier with evidence collection, destroyed evidence, and we don't know who or why. Can't believe the Pike River families are still having to g through this kind of thing.

   Newshub revealed police notes in February that described the way they gathered evidence as "diabolical". Now we know they destroyed exhibits they decided "had no evidential value".

   "It's troubling. It indicates a reasonably relaxed view to the handling of evidence," says independent investigator Tim McKinnel.

   He says evidence is generally only disposed of if there are storage issues or if exhibits present a health and safety risk.

   "Outside of those issues, I can't see why you would begin destroying items from a potential crime scene when so little is known about what happened there," he says.

   Police will not say who exactly ordered the items be destroyed. But the lead police investigator only found out about it late last year.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/09/items-found-around-pike-river-mine-destroyed-by-police-revealed.html
   • Sacha 7.1

     21 September 2019 at 4:59 pm

     Police will not say who exactly ordered the items be destroyed.

     Naturally.
8. joe90 8

   21 September 2019 at 12:32 pm

   Wag the dog and they're off. Iraq 2.0

   https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1175179334933520384
9. mauī 9

   21 September 2019 at 2:13 pm

   I wonder how many golliwogs that odious Trudeau had when growing up. The mind boggles… My guess would be that he had whole "families" of them…
   • marty mars 9.1

     21 September 2019 at 2:21 pm

     How do you 'guess' that? Seems a bit ott to me.
10. Incognito 10

    21 September 2019 at 2:28 pm

    The Nation: Simon Shepherd Interviews James Shaw.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1909/S00285/the-nation-simon-shepherd-interviews-james-shaw.htm

    Nicely balanced middle of the road kind of interview.
11. greywarshark 11

    21 September 2019 at 2:37 pm

    Espots – gaming – not gambling. A shared space for the young brought up on the computer and games since they paid pacman at age 6 probably. Good idea to bring them together for simple friendship even proximity. A guided space where you can hang out with no stress.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/lately/audio/2018713717/game-theory-tom-featonby-on-the-omen-esports-arena

    ..."We also have events during night-time as well where we tend to fill the arena with people, so Tuesday nights – I'm actually at the arena tonight and the boys here are being very quiet … we’ve got them in here playing Formula 1 2019 together, so it’s a racing car game."

    The arena is packed during these weekly events, Featonby says.

    "We’ve got a big group from one of the hostels that come in every Tuesday night without fail and fill the arena for me, which is quite nice. One of the main parts I like about being the esports coordinator is the relationship-building – getting to know them and sharing their passion for gaming."
    .
    …"What we don’t support are realistic first-person shooters, so being the first university to have an esports presence we’re very wary that we need to be above board with everything we do and especially after Christchurch."

    Games that feature realistic-looking guns, blood and gore – like the popular Counter-Strike – are not available at the arena, a move which was unpopular with some, but some of the more cartoon-style shooting games are allowed.
12. greywarshark 12

    21 September 2019 at 2:43 pm

    Labour conference at Brighton coming up.

    Labour conference: Five things to look out for in Brighton

    By Gavin Stamp Political reporter, BBC News

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49767667
13. greywarshark 13

    21 September 2019 at 2:51 pm

    Jonathan Pie in full flow dissing everything in Boorish's Cabnt. Take note – not for sensitive ears – has a go at every bit of virtue signalling from the Conservatives.

    https://www.supernewsworld.com/Jonathan-Pie-Boriss-Britain-9526714.html
14. SPC 14

    21 September 2019 at 4:13 pm

    Media coverage of the economy is drifting into the territory of predicting a recession and then when this does not come explaining that there was little growth but for that via migration.

    This without placing this in perspective – past growth was slightly higher and so was immigration.

    Given continuing demand from employers for more migrants … and the path to a higher MW ($20 in April 2021), those predicting recession connected to local economic factors alone have no credibility.
15. Sacha 15

    21 September 2019 at 4:53 pm

    Govt pissing around on making things fairer for renters: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115955602/governments-rental-law-changes-missing-in-action

    Really, you can still use the same tenancy agreement with all the same clauses you had back in 2016, as long as you cross out the bit about the letting fee.

    This is all despite a Government which came to power promising the first serious change to tenancy laws in a generation, with an end to no-cause termination, limiting and codifying rent increases, more allowances for pets, and more modification of homes.
16. greywarshark 16

    21 September 2019 at 4:57 pm

    This was a good story of community working together for an outcome good for them all. Might have been put up before but worth another go.

    Commenter says: Mike O'Donnell: " If you fail to treat people as the humans they are, at some point it's going to come back and bite you on the bum."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/115591856/a-closing-school-taught-its-community-some-new-skills
17. mosa 17

    21 September 2019 at 6:10 pm

    Public funded election broadcasting should be turned on head – Social Credit

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/21/public-funded-election-broadcasting-should-be-turned-on-head-social-credit
    • McFlock 17.1

      21 September 2019 at 6:29 pm

      Is "social credit" an organisation, an author, or just a generic category of story? Can't seem to find it on the site. Might just be a category from Bradbury – I was wondering if the actual social credit movement was getting more active again.
      • mosa 17.1.1

        21 September 2019 at 6:45 pm

        Here you go Mc Flock

        https://www.socialcredit.nz/
        • McFlock 17.1.1.1

          21 September 2019 at 6:59 pm

          Cheers. Same symbol, must be the same crowd. And it looks like they're the old DSC from the 1990s-2000s.

          Never really followed them, but I think it's a perspective to keep around.
          • The Chairman 17.1.1.1.1

            22 September 2019 at 7:08 am

            Social Credit is New Zealand's oldest, surviving, smaller political party.

            The following (below) is from mosa's initial link.

            Social Credit, which has been part of New Zealand’s political landscape for 66 years, was the first party to propose a comprehensive environmental policy when it published a 28 page booklet entitled ‘You and Your Environment’ in 1973.

            It was also the first party to promote an anti-nuclear position for New Zealand and it campaigned strongly for proportional representation.

            More of us from the left should be supporting them.
            • solkta 17.1.1.1.1.1

              22 September 2019 at 8:06 am

              Yes we know, you think lefties and environmentalists should vote for a party that doesn't have a shit show chance of getting into Parliament rather than the one that is already there. All so boring.
              • The Chairman …

                22 September 2019 at 8:16 am

                Wrong.

                I think we on the left require far better representation than what Labour and the Greens have provided thus far.

                To me (and others) Labour and the Greens representation of the left has largely been disappointing.
                • solkta …

                  22 September 2019 at 8:21 am

                  Like sands through the hourglass, so are the concerns of our lives.
                  • The Chairman …

                    22 September 2019 at 8:34 am

                    With Labour largely having the Greens onside, they know there is hardly anywhere for the left-wing voter to turn. Hence, we on the left need to show them otherwise.

                    The competition would be good for the left, forcing them both (Labour and the Greens) to up their game.

                    And that, IMO, would be a real concern for Labour. They would have to offer us more than merely being a National lite.
                    • solkta …

                      23 September 2019 at 8:31 am

                      I think it is great that Labour is playing nice with the Greens these days. There are two things that are needed now for a more left and environmental government:

                      1. for the Greens to win back the vote they lost back to Labour last election and other stragglers they can pick up so that they are a bigger player in the government

                      2. for Labour to win more of the swing vote from National so that Winston First's support is not required to pass legislation.
            • Psycho Milt 17.1.1.1.1.2

              22 September 2019 at 8:39 am

              More of us from the left should be supporting them.

              You'd like to see more of the left vote directed to parties that won't make the threshold, so that their vote share gets re-distributed to, among others, right-wing parties? So not surprised to hear that…
              • The Chairman …

                22 September 2019 at 8:55 am

                No.

                I'd like to see more of the left vote directed to them (SC) to not only make the threshold but to help them win.

                But clearly, I can't do that alone.

                The left have a choice. Continue to vote Labour and get National lite or force Labour to up their game. The Greens have shown they are ineffective. Shaw won't rock the boat. Hell, they were the ones that came up with the BRR all on their own. Largely robbing Labour of the funding to do little more than National. Therefore, it's time to give SC a go.
                • The Al1en …

                  22 September 2019 at 9:27 am

                  Less chance of them climbing to even get a score on the board in opinion polls than there is of you being taken seriously on this site claiming to be part of "we on the left".
                • McFlock …

                  22 September 2019 at 4:00 pm

                  You're fucking hilarious sometimes.
    • Jimmy 17.2

      23 September 2019 at 11:32 am

      I didn't know Social Credit still existed!

      I remember the days of Bruce Betham and Gary Knapp….whats Gary Knapp doing these days?
18. A 18

    21 September 2019 at 6:12 pm

    https://www.activistpost.com/2019/09/health-concerns-have-stopped-5g-rollout-in-australia.html

    Good to hear! If only NZ would just wait for some kind of study so that we know it is safe or not. But no, why not experiment with our population first (because, rugby!)?
19. mosa 19

    21 September 2019 at 6:20 pm

    For fucks sake i am sick off feckin rugby !!!!!!!!

    It is totally out of control and wayyyyyy over the top.

    Imagine what it will be like when or if we loose or win for that matter.

    If we loose then the NZRFU will hold an inquiry which will regrettably get more publicity than the current Burnham shambles.

    If we win it will be like the second coming of christ and no one even those kiwis who DON'T watch this stupid 80 minutes of utter crap will not be safe.
    • Anne 19.1

      21 September 2019 at 6:47 pm

      Ditto, ditto, ditto.

      I'm currently trying to figure out how I'm going to get through the next 3 weeks without going stark raving mad.
    • Jimmy 19.2

      23 September 2019 at 11:35 am

      Each to their own I suppose. I like sitting down with a beer and watching a game of rugby. (or a few other sports come to that).
20. mosa 20

    21 September 2019 at 6:41 pm

    The media’s war with Bernie Sanders highlights the need to factcheck the factcheckers

    An interesting read that does not mention rugby.

    https://www.thecanary.co/us/us-analysis/2019/09/19/the-medias-war-with-bernie-sanders-highlights-the-need-to-factcheck-the-factcheckers
    • lprent 20.1

      21 September 2019 at 10:24 pm

      Who cares about frigging rugby! That is a subject that belongs to potatoes living on a couch and addicted to watching advertisements.

      If they want to enjoy rugby they should get their arse moving and go and play some while they still can.
      • Anne 20.1.1

        21 September 2019 at 11:15 pm

        What annoys me is: we've got the police ballsing-up the Pike River Inquiry by destroying crucial evidence, and it now transpires senior Defence Force personnel were either total incompetents or downright liars.

        But all we get to hear about is a bunch of macho-ridden boof-heads kicking a funny shaped ball around a field.

        Ok got that off my chest. Back to normal.
    • greywarshark 20.2

      21 September 2019 at 10:24 pm

      Spoiler!
21. joe90 21

    21 September 2019 at 7:29 pm

    Ringo's still got it.
22. millsy 22

    21 September 2019 at 7:45 pm

    Jordan Peterson is checking himself into rehab.

    All those gay couples getting married, casual hookups, and women being able to go on the pill are freaking him out.
23. joe90 23

    21 September 2019 at 7:53 pm

    'heh ''

    https://twitter.com/Muellertime1000/status/1175048736965320706
24. Pat 24

    21 September 2019 at 8:35 pm

    You know things are dire when the arch capitalists start musing thus…

    "Off the record, other senior people in the City tell me they find the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, who has been circulating among them busily in recent months, a serious and intriguing figure: a supposed Marxist who looks, and sometimes talks, a bit like a bank manager.

    A similar thaw is under way in the more thoughtful parts of the business press. With western capitalism having a crisis of confidence, at the very least – this week the Financial Times announced “Capitalism: time for a reset” – Labour’s radical economic alternatives have begun to look more reasonable to some business journalists. The Economist, despite its longstanding support for the Thatcherite free-market reforms that McDonnell would like to reverse, has been covering the development of Labour’s new economic thinking with intense curiosity since 2017. This month, the more cautious, centrist FT has published a succession of long articles about “Labour’s new establishment” and its ambitions for Britain. While the pieces were still spiked with criticisms, the scale of the coverage has suggested a degree of respect – and that corporate Britain needs to understand Corbynism, and be prepared to make some accommodations with it."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/21/bankers-corbyn-tories-no-deal-capitalism-radical-government
    • greywarshark 24.1

      21 September 2019 at 10:23 pm

      Mmmm?
25. Sacha 25

    21 September 2019 at 10:55 pm

    Spark have waved the white flag on their streaming and made the second half of the sportsball free to air on tvnz's Duke channel. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12269739
26. sumsuch 26

    22 September 2019 at 1:15 am

    You above all seem to be committed to showing the last legs of human wealth. Worthwhile aim.

    The other, is ridiculous after-all.

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS