Open mike 21/12/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 21st, 2023 - 69 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

69 comments on “Open mike 21/12/2023 ”

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  1. Robert Guyton 1
    21 December 2023 at 8:01 am

    Luxon pronounces "te reo" incorrectly.

  2. Robert Guyton 2
    21 December 2023 at 8:18 am

    He didn't attend the first time around – his wife did.

    Nick Rockel points us to The White Man Behind a Desk's very funny lampoonery:

    https://youtu.be/3BKH5jdXu6o

  3. Ad 3
    21 December 2023 at 9:52 am

    I would say this against Biden or Trump or whoever team was running their show, but the State Department acting to shield Israel from investigation into breaches of the Geneva Conventions in Gaza is sickening.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/un-security-council-us-block-accountability-international-gaza_n_6583338ce4b04da984257b9c

    Israel must stop degrading its human rights to be as bad as everyone else in the Middle East.

    • Barfly 3.1
      21 December 2023 at 10:37 am

      IMO Israel hasn't changed it's modus operandi – what has changed is the volume of and coverage of their atrocities.

      angry

  5. SPC 5
    21 December 2023 at 10:37 am

    Has the migrant worker tap been turned off yet?

    Employers are looking for help in managing restructuring and redundancies at a rate not seen since the global financial crisis, the Employers and Manufacturers Association (EMA) says.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/301029438/record-level-of-employers-looking-for-help-laying-off-staff-ema

    • bwaghorn 5.1
      21 December 2023 at 12:26 pm

      Didn't you get the memo , 5% + is the target unemployment rate to keep wages down and inflation in check.

      There's obviously no one intelligent enough in government to fins a better way.

    • Descendant Of Smith 5.2
      21 December 2023 at 1:12 pm

      Can't read the article but:

      Fired yesterday: 750 Filipino workers for recruiter ELE from 10 building sites

      Likely more great monitoring by MBIE as well. I still don't know why Labour let such high volumes of workers in when local benefit numbers were still higher than before COVID. MBIE at times seemed to be working against the interests of New Zealanders.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fired-yesterday-750-filipino-workers-for-recruiter-ele-from-10-building-sites/U54OHRRZWNHX3L72VGC2ULLGXU/

      • SPC 5.2.1
        21 December 2023 at 1:21 pm

        Apparently Labour, under pressure from business opened up the taps, Immigration staff expressed concerns about the future mess that would result but MBIE bosses told them to process the migrants in as fast as possible with bare minimum checks, coz that is what the government wanted.

        Unsurprisingly National are not making doing anything a priority coz they can just blame Labour for it all.

        • Craig H 5.2.1.1
          21 December 2023 at 10:47 pm

          Par for the course in my experience at INZ – quality mattered until time frames blew out, and then quality was suddenly optional.

  6. adam 6
    21 December 2023 at 10:49 am

    Abby Martin Speech on Julian Assange at National Press Club

    7 minute speech – well worth the watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafy7yYuAfA

  7. Robert Guyton 7
    21 December 2023 at 2:40 pm

    The Speaker wishes Ricardo Menéndez March, "Feliz Navidad" – classy 🙂

      • Molly 8.1.1
        21 December 2023 at 6:56 pm

        I understand that NZ First took active steps to contact and listen to women, when concerns were raised fairly early on in the campaign trail.

        It's likely that informed their response rather than Fox News.

        • SPC 8.1.1.1
          21 December 2023 at 8:07 pm

          The emerging consensus in international sport based on fair competition and community sport rules having provision for safety in contact sport meant this was a minor issue.

          The coalition agreement states the new government would “ensure publicly funded sporting bodies support fair competition that is not compromised by rules relating to gender”.

          Major sports bodies will continue to work on transgender inclusion guidelines, despite the agreement between National and New Zealand First which aims to remove transgender women from women’s sport.

          Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said on Thursday that transgender New Zealanders would still be able to play sport under the new government, but “balance, fairness, inclusion and safety” were key. He said new sports minister Chris Bishop would “pick that up” in the new year.

          “We want sporting organisations – and by and large many have been doing a fantastic job – working their way through what is quite a complex issue with a range of emotion on all sorts of sides, to say they are finding ways to balance safety, inclusion and fairness,” he said.

          That said, it is obvious that emphasis has changed

          Sport New Zealand introduced its transgender guiding principles in December 2022, which stated transgender athletes could participate in community sport and athletes would not need to “prove or … justify” their identity.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/301030897/sports-continue-with-transgender-inclusion-despite-coalition-agreement

        • Muttonbird 8.1.1.2
          21 December 2023 at 8:14 pm

          NZ First took active steps to contact and listen to women* the same way they took active steps to contact and listen to anti-vaxxers. For political position and votes.

          *By women, I think you mean transphobic women.

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.2.1
            21 December 2023 at 9:07 pm

            Wot Mutton said.

          • weka 8.1.1.2.2
            21 December 2023 at 10:06 pm

            *By women, I think you mean transphobic women.

            Says the misogynist.

            See how that works?

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.2.2.1
              22 December 2023 at 8:37 am

              Well, no. You've personalised it and slighted a commenter here, and it's given Populuxe1 whiplash!

              Muttonbird didn't do that.

              Winston hoovered up the votes of the natural remedies people, the antivax people and quite possibly, the transphobic women, by speaking at their meetings or engaging with the leaders of those groups/movements. Do you believe politically-astute women, such as several who comment here, who could otherwise have given their vote to the New Zealand Women's Rights Party, would have attended a meeting for Winston, or voted for him because he represents their key issue? If so, why? I think Muttonbird is more likely to be correct in this instance.

              • weka …
                22 December 2023 at 9:19 am

                Do you believe politically-astute women, such as several who comment here, who could otherwise have given their vote to the New Zealand Women's Rights Party, would have attended a meeting for Winston, or voted for him because he represents their key issue? If so, why?

                Yes, I do. Because I actually listen to and talk with them. And because anyone who is voting strategically and is no longer committed to the left (there are many like this), voting NZF gives them political power.

                Maybe it's a surprise to some that women's sex based rights are a primary, overarching political issue for many women.

                Winston hoovered up the votes of the natural remedies people, the antivax people and quite possibly, the transphobic women, by speaking at their meetings or engaging with the leaders of those groups/movements

                And how about the gender critical women in those communities who aren't transphobic?

                Well, no. You've personalised it and slighted a commenter here, and it's given Populuxe1 whiplash!

                Muttonbird didn't do that.

                I made it personal to one person, MB made it personal to a number of people. His commented as pointed to Molly. He will know she is a gender critical woman, and while he didn't call her transphobic directly, he may as well have.

                Besides, I was making a point about communication and politics. I didn't call MB a misogynist. I mirrored what he did in a way that would bring home both the problem with his communication on this topic, and the problem with his politics.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  22 December 2023 at 9:34 am

                  Well, yes, I see that you hold the view that "gender critical women" may have chosen to vote for Winston. I can see that Muttonbird holds the view that Winston would more likely have attracted "transphobic women" to vote for him, in light of the other groups he cultivated prior to the election. I favour Muttonbird's assessment, not because of any qualities "gender critical women" may have, but because of what I perceive to be Winston's strategies and the audience he seems to appeal to most. I guess there's no way to know for sure, the ideological makeup of the women who voted for Winston because of his expressed views on this issue, but my feeling is in line with Muttonbird's. That's without taking into account any previous comments made here on The Standard.

                  • weka …
                    22 December 2023 at 10:39 am

                    MB's politics on gender/sex mean that the term transphobic is almost meaningless. Does he mean women who hate trans people? What does hate mean there? JKR kind of hate, or KKK kind of hate, or something else?

                    Or does he also mean women who think women's sex based rights matter, that women have the right to single sex spaces (toilets, changing rooms) and single sex services (rape crisis, cervical screening) separate from males?

                    Peters is a grifter who play the gender wars like maestro violinist while the left wrung their hands wondering what was going on. But the prospective voters that Peters was courting still have agency, and aren't a hive mind. It was the women voters that MB called those women transphobic, as if any woman who had concerns and was interested in NZF's person was transphobic.

                    I see no evidence at all that the only women attracted to Peters' messaging were those that hate trans people.

                    I guess there's no way to know for sure, the ideological makeup of the women who voted for Winston because of his expressed views on this issue, but my feeling is in line with Muttonbird's.

                    Other than listening to and talking with such people.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      22 December 2023 at 10:50 am

                      What, all of them?

                      How might you do that?

                      Who could determine whether they were "gender critical" or"transphobic".

                      My point is that there's no way to know and therefore the guess that the Winston-magnet would draw reactionary, rather than reasonable thinkers, seems fair to me.

                    • weka []
                      22 December 2023 at 11:04 am

                      What, all of them?

                      How might you do that?

                      I know it’s the silly season, but that takes the Christmas cake lol

                      Who could determine whether they were “gender critical” or”transphobic”.

                      It’s not that hard. Many of us have been doing it for a long time. It’s not too different from any other political sphere, but it does require knowledge of the issues. What I see in this debate on TS is people often arguing from a place of relative ignorance. Calling JKR transphobic without understanding what her positions are would be an example.

                      My point is that there’s no way to know and therefore the guess that the Winston-magnet would draw reactionary, rather than reasonable thinkers, seems fair to me.

                      Whereas I think the people that chose to vote for Peters covers a range of people. My dad used to vote Peters, he wasn’t a reactionary. Besides, the dividing line wasn’t reactionary vs reasonable, it was transphobic vs gender critical. There seems to be an a priori implication here that anyone voting for Peters because of gender/sex is inherently transphobic/irrational. I can see the reasonable rationales for voting for Peters over gender even though I disagree with them. The reason I know this is because I had these conversations in the past year with women and men leaving the left over gender identity politics, and I talked and argued with them about the issues in voting on the right instead, and in that my position was to understand their positions, not simply pillory them.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 December 2023 at 8:11 am

                      You are confident, weka, that you can talk with all of the women who voted for NZFirst?

                      I remain puzzled, but am pleased to have earned my slice of Christmas cake.

                    • weka []
                      23 December 2023 at 11:30 am

                      well no.

                      NZF voters cover a range of people and politics. I know NZF voters who aren’t reactionaries.

                      On the specific issue of women voting for NZF over gender/sex, I have zero doubt that some of them are reactionaries and that you know some of those. I know some too. I’m not claiming I’ve talked to all NZF women voters, nor that I know all their motives, so I’m not sure how you got to that question, hence my comment about the silly season.

                      What I’m pointing to is a dynamic of former left wing voters, now not voting on the left, because of gender/sex policies. This is well known. I’ve been talking with those people for ages, and it’s not restricted to NZ. I’m not saying they are the only NZF voters, I’m pointing out that the characterisation of NZF women voters as inherently transphobic and/or reactionary is unfounded.

                      I’m less interested in establishing a narrative of which groups is the bigger number than I am in teasing out a more nuanced perspective, as well as straight up resisting the GI political approach of castigate and ostracise (for reasons I often talk about).

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 December 2023 at 8:41 am

                      Weka wrote:

                      " I can see the reasonable rationales for voting for Peters over gender even though I disagree with them."

                      People may have voted for Peter's over gender, but now they are getting the rest of his political package; attacks on the media, Māori language, Te Trite, "woke" thinking etc.

                      The "natural health" crowd I'm familiar with, which overlaps the anti-tax crowd I also rub shoulders with, switched their support to Winston following his series of meetings up and down the country. I regard them as reactionaries who didn't look past their singular issue to see what they were supporting. Extrapolating out from that experience, I suspect that many of those who joined the NZFirst circus late in the piece, as a result of Winston's honeyed words, are similarly reactionary. Is that not a reasonable assumption to make?

                    • weka []
                      23 December 2023 at 11:38 am

                      Extrapolating out from that experience, I suspect that many of those who joined the NZFirst circus late in the piece, as a result of Winston’s honeyed words, are similarly reactionary. Is that not a reasonable assumption to make?

                      Tbh, I think it speaks more to your politics than theirs. I likewise move in the natural health crowd, although I don’t put scare quotes around that because I think it’s normal and natural 🙂 In that group I know people who fell hard down the rabbit hole, and I know people that are still the same thoughtful people they were before the pandemic even where we disagree on issues. I would never characterise a whole sub culture as reactionary, not least because it’s not been my experience of them.

                      Regarding gender identity politics, it’s not really a feature in my community yet, but it’s starting to become apparent. And the big problem we face is that because of TRA politics and the castigate/ostracise approach, few liberals and progressive will speak to the gender critical issues. Because they are afraid to. This is how reactionary politics comes to dominate.

                      (again, I don’t see that whole subculture as reactionary).

                      No Debate was an intentional strategy from pro-GI lobby groups esp in the UK, it was very successful for a long time in preventing progressives from talking through and resolving the conflicts between women’s rights and trans rights. That left a vacuum which the right and the reactionary alt cultures have filled. Own goal lefties. It serves TRA pol, because it’s much easier to ignore the feminists and continue with the narrative of good trans allies, bad everyone else who wants to talk about the issues they must be evil conservatives. But that narrative is simply, flat out wrong.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 December 2023 at 11:52 am

                      "I would never characterise a whole sub culture as reactionary…"

                      Nor I – I labeled those who committed their vote to Winston late in the piece, following his charm-offensive across the motu.

                      I have a question for you, weka. Do you know if any of the women who were planning to vote New Zealand Women's Rights Party, shifted their vote to Winston?

                    • weka []
                      23 December 2023 at 1:20 pm

                      Cool, so we’ve narrowed it down to counter culture women who voted NZF after NZF adopted a GC policy.

                      I see no evidence that all or most of those women are reactionary, although obviously some are. Nor do I see any reason to draw the conclusion that they are, unless one is unaware of the range of positions within GC politics (or chooses to ignore them).

                      Do you know if any of the women who were planning to vote New Zealand Women’s Rights Party, shifted their vote to Winston?

                      Off the top of my head, no. I could ask around. I could ask on TS, but it’s not safe to do so /irony.

                      I can tell you that if I weren’t a committed deep green leftie, and I decided to vote based on women’s rights, I might choose NZF over NZWRP because voting NZF would increase the chances of a brake on GII being further rolled out in NZ policy, law and society. Voting NZWRP is the long game. The problem is that much damage can be done in the meantime.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 December 2023 at 1:36 pm

                      Thanks, weka, that's what I was angling for.

              • Populuxe1 …
                22 December 2023 at 3:42 pm

                Ow, my neck

          • Molly 8.1.1.2.3
            23 December 2023 at 8:01 am

            Cool. I know who they consulted with.

            Apparently, you (and Robert below) do too. Unless you just drag out the "transphobic" accusation for those who may hold a different perspective than you.

      • weka 8.1.2
        21 December 2023 at 10:17 pm

        That's a fucking stupid article, why did you present it as something worth reading?

        The probably updated headline reads,

        Transgender athletes could be banned from publicly funded women’s sport under new Government policy

        Why would transmen who are not using testosterone be banned from publicly funded women's sport? It's not about transgender atheletes, it's about male bodied people being allowed to compete in female bodied people's sport. Safety and fairness and plain old sexism are the core of the problem.

        What is actually happening is that there is a push to set boundaries on participation in sport based on biological sex not gender. Anyone presenting this as a gender identity/bigotry issue is either ignorant or disingenuous.

        Pro-gender lefties upset at NACTFirst sorting this issue out in a conservative frame should have thought about that when attacking gender critical people on the left that wanted good solutions for women and trans people /

        • Populuxe1 8.1.2.1
          21 December 2023 at 11:41 pm

          So why not let individual sports organisations make those decisions? How is this anything the government should be involving itself in?

          Pro-gender lefties

          Honestly, it's breathtaking how your language switches straight to right wing idioms when your hobbyhorse gets trundled out. I get whiplash.

          • roblogic 8.1.2.1.1
            22 December 2023 at 2:08 am

            It's more breathtaking to me that this is the issue that (mostly younger) lefties choose to rally around and protest about. And they can't see how offensive and unreasonable their behaviour is, and how it probably influenced the election.

            #LetWomenSpeak

            https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/12/14/the-trans-colonisation-of-womens-sports/

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.1.1.1
              22 December 2023 at 8:42 am

              If it influenced the election it was only because Winston exploited the inflamed who were gullible enough to believe he represented the issue that most inflamed them.

            • Populuxe1 8.1.2.1.1.2
              22 December 2023 at 10:56 am

              Firstly, that doesn't negate the wrongness of the government setting itself up as moral arbiter of an issue like this. Second, they have a democratic right to protest. Third, Spiked! is so ideologically suspect I wouldn't touch it with lead gloves.

              • roblogic …
                22 December 2023 at 12:28 pm

                . 1. That didn’t stop L/G from making an equivalent judgement, but you happened to agree with it

                . 2. That wasn’t a protest it was a thug’s veto, the violence is well documented around the world, but ignored by craven NZ media

                . 3. So you didn’t read the article and prefer to remain ignorant of the very real issues at play and the increasing degradation of women’s sports and violations of their safety

                These aren’t simple black and white issues with goodies and baddies. But if the left continues to force this issue and prioritise male peccadilloes over women’s rights, then fair minded people will vote accordingly

                (nb, this comment box markup is messing up numbered lists!)

                • Populuxe1 …
                  22 December 2023 at 2:36 pm

                  . 1. That didn’t stop L/G from making an equivalent judgement, but you happened to agree with it

                  First of all, you're assuming I had an opinion in the first place, and second of all, when did Labour threaten to cut off contestable funding for groups unless they exclude certain demographics?

                  . 2. That wasn’t a protest it was a thug’s veto, the violence is well documented around the world, but ignored by craven NZ media

                  To paraphrase Blackadder, yes, it was awfully sharp tomato soup. And attacking the media is always the first stop of a fascist.

                  . 3. So you didn’t read the article and prefer to remain ignorant of the very real issues at play and the increasing degradation of women’s sports and violations of their safety

                  The article is woefully out of date and fails to take into account more recent medical research and the rules individual sporting organisations have put in place to endure fair competition. I realise some people do like to drag out the outliers and pretend its a conspiracy, but reality rarely works like that.

                  These aren’t simple black and white issues with goodies and baddies. But if the left continues to force this issue and prioritise male peccadilloes over women’s rights, then fair minded people will vote accordingly

                  No, but then I'm not the one treating them like "simple black and white issues with goodies and baddies" – that would be you and this government seeing everything as a nail when all you have is a hammer, and does nothing to address the issue of an entire demographic being excluded from the right to participate in organised sport.

            • SPC 8.1.2.1.1.3
              22 December 2023 at 1:36 pm

              That article is out of date on international sport.

              The first position was transsexual status and hormone levels within the female norm. As it notes this was challenged because of the advantage of going through puberty as a male. It has already been determined (under fair competition rules) those who went through puberty as males are excluded (or are to be) from near all international sport.

              Following on from that is the issue of player safety in community sport involving physical contact, if those who went through puberty as males are allowed to participate. That is on-going.

          • weka 8.1.2.1.2
            22 December 2023 at 8:48 am

            So why not let individual sports organisations make those decisions? How is this anything the government should be involving itself in?

            Sure. And why not let sports organisations start discriminating against women in other ways? Why should we have Human Rights Legislation covering things like this?

            Pro-gender lefties

            Honestly, it's breathtaking how your language switches straight to right wing idioms when your hobbyhorse gets trundled out. I get whiplash.

            Honestly, it's breathtaking how many lefties a) refuse to acknowledge the existence of the large number of left wing gender critical feminists and allies who were working on this for a good decade before the right jumped in.

            Even more breathtaking is the implication that feminists can't think for themselves and might very well have reached their conclusions based on class analysis, feminism, and fairness.

            Btw, your argument about letting sports organisations choose rather than having central government protections for women, is straight out of the RW play book. Very libertarian.

            See how that works? I don't think you are RW/libertarian (I think you are ignorant as well as having chosen a side against women). But when we react from relative ignorance, we comes to stupid assumptions like the on you made about my language. Would it hurt you to learn the history of gender/sex politics and understand the various dynamics and groups involved?

            • Populuxe1 8.1.2.1.2.1
              22 December 2023 at 11:08 am

              I am quite familiar with the history of gender/sex politics, thanks, and you are not its pope. You're welcome to think for yourself. That's absolutely swell and grand. I just find it interesting how quickly you rush to embrace the authoritarian right whenever anyone disagrees with you on this particular topic, even though historically they'd prefer you stay in the kitchen.
              I'd rather let sports organisations choose (and let's face it, you're more worried they'll choose to include trans people than you are about the libertarian right) because most of them operate at the community level.
              Anyway, I'll leave it there. The straw people are giving me hay fever.

              [please produce three examples of where I ‘rush to embrace the authoritarian right’ on GC politics. Examples need to be quotes of my words, links, and an explanation from yourself on what you think I am doing. This is mandatory.

              You’ve been throwing out such statements generally in the past day, but when it comes to authors, you cannot misrepresent what we say. It’s not that you have a particular opinion about my or others’ politics, it’s that you are using slurs with zero evidence or argument to support your assertion. I won’t moderate for disagreement, I will moderate for disrespect to authors or moderators.

              You can either present the evidence I have asked for, or clearly and genuinely withdraw the assertion, or risk a ban. You are in premod until the is resolved. Know that given the time of year, my patience is pretty thin. – weka]

              • roblogic …
                22 December 2023 at 12:36 pm

                You’d know all about straw, since you seem incapable of even acknowledging there is a legitimate clash of rights here. But you do you. Whitewashing and wallpapering over problems, and accusing people who complain of being hateful bigots, is a great recipe for the future 👍🏼

                • Populuxe1 …
                  22 December 2023 at 2:40 pm

                  Actually I do agree that there is a legitimate clash of rights. The difference is I don't see a particularly good outcome in "solving" it by using state power and threats to funding in order to marginalise and excluding an entire class of people.

              • weka …
                22 December 2023 at 7:30 pm

                mod note.

              • weka …
                22 December 2023 at 7:45 pm

                Additional notes: examples of where you have been making claims as slurs, without evidence.

                https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22-12-2023/#comment-1982111

                https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22-12-2023/#comment-1982099

                The problem here is that when someone says something like this,

                My personal feeling is that while J K Rowling has become quite loathsome with her doubling down on being all chummy with outright fascists on social media, banning a harmless exhibition is the worst kind of superficial virtue signaling.

                it's very hard to argue back politically. The slur is clear (JKR is chummy with outright fascists on SM), but there is not only no evidence provided for this, but the outright fascists aren't even named. So the casual slurring continues in a long running political war that is fraught with this kind of low level debate manipulation.

              • weka …
                25 December 2023 at 10:05 am

                I've now shifted you from premod to the ban list until 6/1/24, because I'm on holiday.

                You will be back in premod at the end of the ban. If you comment before the 6th the comment will go into Trash, but I will see it in the back end and can take it from there. Otherwise, please comment in the week starting the 6th

                Please attend to the mod request above sooner rather than later, or I will ban you for a longer time just to get it off my workload. This is resolvable, it's simply a matter of establishing the boundaries here on what is ok and what isn't.

              • weka …
                13 January 2024 at 9:43 am

                Banned another 2 months because I'm sick of waiting. If you respond before then to moderation I will pick it up from Trash and take a look.

          • Molly 8.1.2.1.3
            23 December 2023 at 8:11 am

            Administrators (often volunteers) are susceptible to coercion and funding directives. They can be excellent administrators for the sport, while being ignorant of the reasons behind any of the sports categories within their code.

            They should – as responsible adults – maintain the categories within their sports codes – unless there is compelling evidence (which there is not) for removing those sports categories from their codes.

            The principle most applicable here is Chesterton's Fence:

            https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

            We maintain weight classes, and age categories for the same reasons of safety and fairness that sex categories exist.

            However, the ill-considered erosion of the sex-category has already bled into age category infiltration. When the adults leave the room in this respect, they tend not to look back in case something bad happens:

            https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-will-no-one-stand-up-for-common-sense

            "More recently, there’s the shameful case of the 50-year-old man — who identifies as a teenage girl — who was allowed to compete against young girls in a swim facility in Barrie, Ontario.

            Apparently, no one in authority thought to protect the young girls who had to share a changeroom with that person. In this brave new world, no one had the courage or the common sense to tell him he should leave immediately or be thrown out."

        • SPC 8.1.2.2
          22 December 2023 at 1:09 pm

          I added that link, because it was the earlier news report on the government decision and should have been in the original post.

          Fairness was already at the core, thus it is being decided that those who went through puberty as males are to be excluded from near all of international women's sport.

          Safety was also already at the core, with community sports organisations able to make decisions on safety grounds, whether age, weight or sex.

          What was

          Sport New Zealand introduced its transgender guiding principles in December 2022, which stated transgender athletes could participate in community sport and athletes would not need to “prove or … justify” their identity.

          What now is

          The coalition agreement states the new government would “ensure publicly funded sporting bodies support fair competition that is not compromised by rules relating to gender”.

          The real issue in community sport is safety. The National Party PM and Sports Minister get that

          So while

          Major sports bodies will continue to work on transgender inclusion guidelines, despite the agreement between National and New Zealand First which aims to remove transgender women from women’s sport.

          There is this

          Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said on Thursday that transgender New Zealanders would still be able to play sport under the new government, but “balance, fairness, inclusion and safety” were key. He said new sports minister Chris Bishop would “pick that up” in the new year.

          “We want sporting organisations – and by and large many have been doing a fantastic job – working their way through what is quite a complex issue with a range of emotion on all sorts of sides, to say they are finding ways to balance safety, inclusion and fairness,” he said.

          PS I mentioned Fox News because its focus is on college/university sport (where the scholarships are an incentive for grifters and deprive women of opportunity or make for unfair competition – this is not where we are). And otherwise unbalanced reporting on this and other issues, leading to societal conflict for exploitation by the GOP/politicians.

          • Molly 8.1.2.2.1
            23 December 2023 at 8:19 am

            I submitted to the Sports NZ consultation on this policy. I know that some women's organisations, and individual sportswomen also attempted to have their concerns addressed, but were not given access to the process other than as individual submitters.

            You can look at the list of involved stakeholders to determine whether the policy was predetermined – despite the pretence of consultation:

            https://sportnz.org.nz/diversity-equity-and-inclusion/transgender-and-rainbow-inclusion/

            "How were these created?

            Through consultation on the Guiding Principles for Transgender Inclusion in Community Sport, the sector identified a need for more resources to support understanding and awareness of rainbow communities more broadly. A working group was then formed with sector representatives from NZ Rugby, NZ Cricket, NZ Football, NZ Netball, Golf NZ, Swimming NZ, School Sport NZ, Waka Ama NZ and Aktive Auckland, whose help and expertise made this work possible.

            We partnered with InsideOUT Kōaro, who are leading experts in inclusion of rainbow communities, to develop a suite of resources to support rainbow inclusion in community sport and recreation.  Through this, InsideOUT consulted with many groups in Aotearoa that support members of various rainbow communities."

  9. SPC 9
    21 December 2023 at 3:58 pm

    It's surprising no one has considered the option of Oz and other foreign based gangs, associated with organised crime, being banned from operating branches here.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/12/21/analysis-the-govt-gets-tough-on-gangs-but-the-laws-already-exist/

  10. Peter 10
    21 December 2023 at 3:58 pm

    Reti announces $50 million immunisation programme for Māori. Wonder if it includes a jab for smoking.

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