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Open mike 22/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 22nd, 2019 - 147 comments
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147 comments on “Open mike 22/05/2019 ”

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  2. Cinny 2
    22 May 2019 at 7:34 am

    national said a report on their culture was ready in back in April. At the time they said they would wait until the bullying report about parliament was released, then they would release their own report.

    Now that the parliament report on bullying has been released, all of a sudden nationals report on their party culture is not ready……. why is that? Sounds dodgy as to me.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/05/22/597817/mixed-messages-from-national-on-culture-review

    • Incognito 2.1
      22 May 2019 at 7:41 am

      Maybe it’s being ‘re-calibrated’ as we speak …

      • Sacha 2.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 7:42 am

        Some hurried editing, for sure.

        • Incognito 2.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 7:47 am

          Something like ‘how to turn a white-wash into something that vaguely resembles a damning report that is more credible given the other report that has just been released’.

          Edit: which impartial third party has put their name(s) on the National Party report?

        • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2
          22 May 2019 at 8:04 am

          Editing probably advisable inasmuch as the party folk who work in parliament participate in the toxic workplace culture reported by the Francis review. Their in-house culture review therefore has a parliamentary interface component, which will be illuminated by yesterday's news.

          Plus we heard Mallard telling NatRad this morning that he's under the impression that rape has happened in parliament in recent years. He's encouraging any victims to report to that police, and giving reassurance complainants will be supported in doing so. Sufficiently serious to make the Nats want to check if any of their people are involved, eh? Reasonable to postpone release of their review pending that check…

    • Gabby 2.2
      22 May 2019 at 10:27 am

      They just have to pencil in a guarantee of anonymity, you know, to safeguard the victims.

    • Shadrach 2.3
      22 May 2019 at 9:03 pm

      I wonder if it's gone the same way that Labour's Youth Camp investigation went. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/labour-refuses-to-release-youth-camp-report.html

  3. Adrian Thornton 3
    22 May 2019 at 7:50 am

    Not mentioned on any NZ news source that I am aware of, as I said in my official complaint to RNZ, all we ask for is fair and balanced reporting…is that too much to ask for from at least one news source in NZ?, and especially our state broadcaster.

    Massive May Day March in Defense of the Bolivarian Revolution.

    • weston 3.1
      22 May 2019 at 9:27 am

      Yep RNZ's a wierd scene alright adrian , free to air funded by us and yet run exactly along the lines of a fully commercial station .The only sources it seeks are uk and us based cnn ( which they apparently have playing in the office )and bbc .Odd and out of all perspective also is the number of interviews of americans who seemingly are first choice to consult on almost anything happening arround the world buggered if i know why !!

      • WeTheBleeple 3.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 9:52 am

        Well, if you look between the lines… it's an old white boys club. Our news is the world according to old white boys.

        Tokenism accepted begrudgingly.

        • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 10:00 am

          @WeTheBleeple, You are right except is has now turned into more of a white boys and girls club I think…with tokenism accepted begrudgingly.

        • greywarshark 3.1.1.2
          22 May 2019 at 10:52 am

          What we want is Tolkienism so the Hobbits get to be the centre of civilisation!

      • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2
        22 May 2019 at 9:55 am

        Yes weston it is a damn shame alright, even our beloved Kim Hill has over time turned into a real reactionary, and I used to so look forward to her political interviews, she was one of NZ's greats, but unfortunately no longer.

        Bizarrely one of the few places in MSM media that I know of that offer a critique to a lot of these stories is Tucker Carlson on Fox (and believe me I am no fan of Fox)…what a crazy situation we have ended up in.

        • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2.1
          22 May 2019 at 11:56 am

          Tuckers reasoning as to why he'd block driverless trucks (to protect truck drivers jobs) is something I'm sure all lefties would agree on

          • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 12:15 pm

            Bipartisan anti-robot bias in the media? So what do we call this new syndrome – antiroboticism?? devil

          • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2.1.2
            22 May 2019 at 12:44 pm

            Yeah, he also did a piece in support of Bernie and AOC's bill to bring the credit card industry into line on their interest rates, all very strange, I would never have predicted that Fox would be one of the few place in US main stream media to find a bit (and to be fair it is only a bit) of fairness and balance in reporting, but all the same it says volumes about 'liberal' media today.

      • Gabby 3.1.3
        22 May 2019 at 10:28 am

        You can't trust johnny foreigner and his foreign jibberjabber to give the right facts westie.

    • greywarshark 3.2
      22 May 2019 at 10:50 am

      I feel that we have a special deal with Voice of America for our news.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America

      Weston 3.1: Odd and out of all perspective also is the number of interviews of americans who seemingly are first choice to consult on almost anything happening arround the world buggered if i know why !!
      You lay it on the line westie – we have found out why and now know we are buggered!

  4. vto 4
    22 May 2019 at 8:15 am

    In the last week Paddy Gower on newshub and Seymour and Wallis on Q&A have all claimed that we have a white supremacist and race problem in NZ which was exposed by the terrorist attack in Chch.

    Pardon me, but the attack was carried out by a foreigner attacking New Zealanders. New Zealand was a victim, not the perpetrator.

    There is no evidence to support the contention made by Gower, Seymour or Wallis.

    Sure, there may be a problem in NZ with white and other supremacies and with racism, but there is no evidence linking those problems to the attacks. Those problems exist in most every country on the planet so the logic isn't there.

    We were attacked by a foreigner. We were a victim. NZ was not a party to the attack, as Gower, Seymour and Wallis state.

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      22 May 2019 at 8:44 am

      You're right. A reality check often reveals that folks are being driven by perceptions only. In the aftermath of the massacre I made a few comments to similar effect: we know there's been a skinhead subculture in Chch for yonks, with white supremacist culture seemingly attached. Yet no media report connecting the shooter to it ever showed up – just media reporting a speculative connection.

      I also queried the others arrested in the vicinity of the massacre on that day, media-linked to it, yet lack of follow-through by police suggests no link to the shooter. I commented at the time that they may just have been regular viewers of tv crime shows. Media reports of those arrests said they were carrying guns.

      Raises the question of what percentage of any random selection of Chch locals carry guns, eh? Hollywood syndrome: gun glamour. Brainwashed followers acting out fantasies produced by the mystique…

      • Sabine 4.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 8:55 am

        he is right insofar that the perpetrator of the crime was a "foreigner' and australian.

        but he is not right with white male supremacy. The western/white world actually has a big issue with predominantly white blokes that have an issue with the loss of privilege, the fact that women will not go back to the kitchen and endless pregnancies without a fight, and that people of color will also not go and sit at the back of the bus without a fight.

        So the issue is our culture, our white western christian culture is breeding these guys, and thanks to our privilege he moved here without issues, bought guns legally without issues, and then one day decided to kill 50 people.

        And he did so out of stated reason, but then, because Ms. Ardern said so we were not allowed an open discussion on these reasons. No we have to not name him, not talk about him and simply pretend it did not happen the way it happend, and now VTO comes along and is trying to whitewash history.

        The 50 people got killed because they were brown, of a different religion and are currently the one group of people that every one can demonise with nary a slap one the hand.; Hence why only murder charges when terrorism charges would apply.

        Its like some saying we must 'End Iran' cause Iran is doing shit we are actually doing but its easier to blame Iran and besides they are brown and muslim so there. Just much smaller on the scale of things.

        • vto 4.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 9:07 am

          Anything to have a crack at white men eh sabine. Grab at those wispy leaves blowing in the wind wont you, try and tie them into something with substance eh, leverage other memes off those weak knots then. You are predictable, tedious, offensive and lack credibility.

          Some time ago you demanded I not respond to your posts. How about you do the same with mine.

          • marty mars 4.1.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 9:47 am

            ummm hey buddy Sabine actually answered your question – how about listening – you may eventually get the answer that agrees with what you already have decided to believe.

            • bewildered 4.1.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 4:26 pm

              Sabine did not answer anything she just dropped a lot of stereo types and revealed her own bias

          • Sabine 4.1.1.1.2
            22 May 2019 at 12:05 pm

            its not my fault that there are a shit load of white men behaving like utterly depraved people like that white middle class boy from Australia with lots o money from Grandpa who migrated to NZ because he knew that as a white boy its the easiest thing for him to – also did i mention he is from OZ"?, buy a few guns, get some target training in and then rock up on a Friday at a house of prayer and shoot 50 men women children in the back like the fucking coward he is.

            so there go whinge some more about how men are hard done by especially the white ones.

            • vto 4.1.1.1.2.1
              22 May 2019 at 12:59 pm

              your bitterness betrays you

              btw, i didn't "whinge about how men are hard done by eespecially the white ones" but the fact you think I did also betrays you and your agenda

              In addition this wee white-man-hating gem also betrays you and your agenda "there are a shit load of white men behaving like utterly depraved people ". Delusional.

              you wanted me to stay away from you, which is easily done and has been done as you asked. I ask you to stay away from me too. But if you don't then expect your extreme claims to be confronted.

              • marty mars …
                22 May 2019 at 1:06 pm

                "Anything to have a crack at white men eh sabine"

                that is what you said at 9.07am

                "btw, i didn't "whinge about how men are hard done by eespecially the white ones" but the fact you think I did also betrays you and your agenda"

                and then you said that at 12.59pm? looks like a whinge to me or have you forgotten what you wrote. Bit agenderary by you I fink.

                • vto …
                  22 May 2019 at 1:17 pm

                  Detail, specifics and accuracy are not your fine points are they marty. That was clearly a whinge at sabine and her white-man-hating ways, not at how white men are hard done by.

              • Sabine …
                22 May 2019 at 1:46 pm

                good grief, stop with the 'bitterness' bullshit. Seriously the one who is bitter is you.

                I simply laid out the fact as they are. Nothing more nothing less.

                And yes dear, you whinge a lot.

            • Foreign Waka 4.1.1.1.2.2
              22 May 2019 at 8:27 pm

              Sabine, NZ has a problem with all races killing their babies and/or partners. Domestic violence is rife. Weapons are carried by gangs which are of all races. I don't want to state the obvious but I think you need to do a fact check before you make these statements.

              It is true that the world we live in was and still is designed by the wealthy upper class, in the majority men but certainly not whites only. But brutality is carried out by those who are fanatically inclined or emotionally disturbed with many shades of one or the other in between. I view it as a complete failure of society,communities and governments to have allowed mentally disturbed people to be "treated" by using the label "community care"which means nothing more than medieval methods of denial of care. It is an abdication of responsibility to leave such vulnerable group to their own devices and too many are becoming victims or perpetrator. Whether or not a deranged person has wealthy parents is irrelevant unless policy of envy is at play.

              • Sabine …
                22 May 2019 at 8:57 pm

                again, you miss the point.

                my post was in response to vto who spoke about the white man who killed 50 brown and white people in their temple.

                nothing to do with anything else but that.

                And i, as a white person don't feel entitled to speak about the way others live their lifes, or how they choose to break the law. What i know is that a lot of the issues Maori have in NZ is due to the discrimination suffered at the hands of the colonials that came first, then by the subsequent governments who took their language, their rights of passage (moko), their land, and replaced it with white mens clothes and hairdoes, alcohol, poverty, hunger and war fare for that land.

                so while i don't disagree with you i also don't see the point in regards to what the original post was about.

                And agin, even the wealth of the murderer has little to do other then it enabled him to travel to meet up with white supremacist in europe, get indoctrinated, travel to nz ( i migrated here and thus now what it costs and it is not cheap by any means) find a flat, buy guns, pay a gun club fee and train to shoot 50 predominantly brown people – men women and children – in their temple of worship because as he himself stated, it was the easiest country for him to do so. And one reason it was so easy was because he is a white australian with money and they have no issue migrating here – because we consider australians our neighbors.

                And us white people will start to have to look at what is and not what we want there to be. And white supremacism, a fear of 'being replaced', a fear of loss of privilege is there and it is causing a whole lot of trouble and death. We have had no issue demanding all sorts of answers from muslims when they had their young ones commit terrorism, and we should not shy away from asking us the same question. Why does a young, average looking man, healthy, with some wealth go and kill 50 people. People who had no intend on doing any harm to him, who had no intend of replacing him, people who Greeted him "Welcome Brother'.

                Maybe we should think about that, rather then find excuses that are rather flimsy. And i stand by that.

      • vto 4.1.2
        22 May 2019 at 9:01 am

        You know what those taggers-on were doing on the day of the massacres and the several days following? Was intentionally not reported much methinks..

        They were the camo'ed survivalist and other nutters of various shades who came out thinking this was the time. That armageddon was here. Weapons locked and loaded, camo on, out they came. Not white supremacists. The Papanui High couple were out to help the coppers.. We had one with a samurai sword in our suburb.. there were reports of others elsewhere around the country.

        The thin veneer of civilisation was peeling back there for a moment for us to get a peek…

    • marty mars 4.2
      22 May 2019 at 9:39 am

      It has been explained a few times to you when you asked the same question before. Why not write a letter to Jacinda and see what she says – you might get in the paper again lol

      • vto 4.2.1
        22 May 2019 at 10:22 am

        no nothing was 'explained'. and certainly no evidence was provided. the question remains. despite your 'witty' one-liners again lol.

        • marty mars 4.2.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 10:28 am

          write the letter big boy and put the answer up BEFORE it makes the news – make sure you comb your hair before the TV people arrive lol

          • vto 4.2.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 10:38 am

            you love to make fun of people don't you.

            is a poorly trait

            • marty mars 4.2.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 10:58 am

              I think if you were genuine and sincere in your inquiry you would have, by now, gone out and found the answer to this burning question that troubles you so. But instead you use the question to sow seeds of distrust and doubt.

              But why not ask the leaders and get your answer, why not? cos you already know the answer.

              • vto …
                22 May 2019 at 11:08 am

                too much muddle-headed assumption in there to waste more time

                facts and evidence

                so hard to keep to facts and evidence

                • marty mars …
                  22 May 2019 at 11:34 am

                  yep insincere – time for your real agenda eh – time for game playing to be over eh, time for fronting up to your REAL issue eh, time for vto to put up eh.

                  answers

                  no

                  no

                  no

                  no

                  answer – bau

                  [Peace to both of you. Please calm it down – MS]

    • WeTheBleeple 4.3
      22 May 2019 at 9:57 am

      Those local white supremacist losers have been talking about killing others for decades, here in NZ. All because the bulk of them lack the conviction to carry through with their evil doesn't mean they aren't here cheering the shit on and trying to recruit loose cannons.

      They are all part of global networking now, and as such are (an even bigger) real and present danger to society.

      You sir, are either ill informed or dishonest.

      • vto 4.3.1
        22 May 2019 at 10:20 am

        The supremacist/extremist issue within wider society was acknowledged wtb, no problem. The problem is linking the attack to NZ – the only evidence being pointed to which could link the attack to NZ society is the extremist element within society and as already pointed out, those local extremists exist in every society – 'white', muslim, african, maori. So the logic is missing. You need something more specific to link it to NZ. Otherwise your evidence links it to every society and not specifically NZ.

        • marty mars 4.3.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 10:26 am

          You need something more specific to link it to NZ. Otherwise your evidence links it to every society and not specifically NZ.

          The white supremacist's attack against and murdering of innocent people at prayer happened in New Zealand, in fact it happened in your city Christchurch. THAT is your link and your evidence.

          here is another if you care to read.

          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/05/revealed-how-white-supremacists-terrorised-new-zealand-for-decades.html

          Why is this an issue for you – why not answer that instead of beating around the bush as you like to do – don't be scared – what's your fucken issue son.

          • vto 4.3.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 10:31 am

            "happened in New Zealand"

            I thought it was because we have extremists here? That is the point above. You have introduced a new element.

            In addition you are ignoring the fact that it was not a New Zealander, it was a foreigner. Was New Zealand fingered when the Rainbow Warrior was blown up and a man killed by foreigners who came here for that purpose?

            Your evidence fails.

        • WeTheBleeple 4.3.1.2
          22 May 2019 at 10:26 am

          There is no need to link the NZ attack to NZ, as it occurred in NZ…

          I get your point but it is merely semantics and you can do much better than semantics – I've seen it.

          Fact is we have a lot of white supremacists here. These are not just the bike clubs and skinheads, but the business class who associate with them, or worse, the secret societies.

          I've met a white power enforcer who worked for businessmen in Invercargill. His job was to beat up black people who got uppity with their affairs. It's not worth my life to expose the pricks, that is the Police's job, except, they're probably in the police force too.

          I wish it were not so. We've got some absolute dirtbags in this country.

          Interestingly, in Christchurch, when my mate tuned up a few National Front members, they hired a Maori hitman to get us. White power – lolz!

          • vto 4.3.1.2.1
            22 May 2019 at 10:41 am

            I dont consider the point 'semantics' at all – it is fundamental.

            NZ society did not do this, despite having elements of the offending group in society.

            In the same way NZ society did not sink the Rainbow Warrior, despite having elements of the offending group in society.

            • mauī 4.3.1.2.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 11:02 am

              frown If some New Zealanders had dumped a pig's head on the Rainbow Warrior, hurled abuse at the crew and talked about getting Greenpeace boats out of our waters all prior to the event, you can bet they would have been implicated.

              • vto …
                22 May 2019 at 11:05 am

                Plenty harboured and expressed such ill will towards greenpeace back then, and continue to today. But NZ did not sink the Rainbow Warrior. The point remains.

                • greywarshark …
                  22 May 2019 at 11:44 am

                  vto The point is well made. People mutter and utter words of extremes – 'I'll kill you you little bastard' might be shouted by some parent with a lack of controlled language. But it is very unlikely to happen.

                  Tuhoe apparently used to voice angry threats, and practice martial arts; the police spied and read intention and invaded their village. But they hadn't done anything except use wild launguage and perhaps they were practising stuff they might have learned from being in our Defence Forces,

                  The USA Forces carry out maneouvres with our Forces, and other countries', on our soil regularly. We haven't been attacked yet, though there may be willingness and intention, but so far no action to point at, except the deaths of a soldier or two.

                  • vto …
                    22 May 2019 at 11:55 am

                    yes grey, and I believe it is one of the fundamentals to whole of the terror attacks matter.

                    The matter is too large and significant to let this particular fundamental take on a life of its own (that NZ society is responsible for and led to the terror attack), when there is no evidence for it (as outlined imo above).

                    • greywarshark …
                      22 May 2019 at 9:58 pm

                      I agree 100% vto. It particularly upsets me that the Oz has dumped this on us. However Jacinda has turned it round and used the attention of the world on it to try and make improvements. If it had happened in Australia it would have vanished without a trace? Or would they have been exposed as harbouring some nasty behaviours and been shamed into releasing the Manus Islanders? I hear they are contemplating suicide again after Labour managed to shoot themselves in the foot.

        • Gabby 4.3.1.3
          22 May 2019 at 10:33 am

          You got to wonder why Shatpant thought he'd get away with it here don't you veety.

          • RedLogix 4.3.1.3.1
            22 May 2019 at 10:37 am

            He never imagined he would 'get away' with it; he fully anticipated being caught and imprisoned for the rest of his life. The only reason why he switched to a local target was that he belatedly realised they would be easier.

            • WeTheBleeple 4.3.1.3.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 10:45 am

              I thought he'd anticipated being killed. Could be wrong but had the impression he failed in his plans when taken alive.

              • RedLogix …
                22 May 2019 at 11:28 am

                Well either way the notion of 'getting away with it because NZ just loves mass murderers’ seems a tad far fetched.

                • vto …
                  22 May 2019 at 11:37 am

                  Since 9/11 I had always thought NZ would make an excellent target for terrorist attack. Reason being that we are perceived as the safest place in the world so if people aren't safe here then they aren't safe anywhere – terrorism aim achieved.

                  • Sabine …
                    22 May 2019 at 12:57 pm

                    and then it was a white boy that came and killed people en masse and not the advertised threat of brown muslim boy.

                    And that is the issue here VTO, if it would have been a brown muslim boy we would not stop discussing the religion of 'hate', how they are all out to get us, and such, and finally how to prevent it.

                    Instead we are told to not discuss it, we are told to not name the men who did it, we are told to not show is ugly mug, we are told to not read/discuss and disect his manifesto, and above all we are told to never discuss why on earth he would choose a. NZ (and white people find it relatively easy to migrate here especially people from OZ – and to be fair NZ'lers get easily into OZ), why he would choose Christchurch (yeah, a town with Ersatz Nazis and wanna be white supremacists) for his attack, rather then say live in South Auckland and try it there.

                    Fact is that there is a lot of terrorism that comes from white people. And us white people we now need to wonder and ask ourself and i have raised that question often, Why is a white boy, from one of the most desirable places on this planet, from a well to do family so hateful so fearful and so fucked up that he would migrate to a neighboring country ( he could have killed muslims in OZ) got himself plenty o guns and ammuniton, learned how to shoot real good, and then killed 50 people by shooting them in the back.

                    And that question we have repeatedly refused to ask, in fact we have been told by our PM to never ask to never speak about it. And that is also cowardice.

            • marty mars 4.3.1.3.1.2
              22 May 2019 at 10:45 am

              yes the murderer of children, women and men knelt at prayer thought it through with cunning – a life behind bars is too easy imo

        • mauī 4.3.1.4
          22 May 2019 at 10:39 am

          "The problem is linking the attack to NZ – the only evidence being pointed to which could link the attack to NZ society is the extremist element within society and as already pointed out, those local extremists exist in every society"

          According to Gower's report, people from the Al Noor mosque believe the terrorist had help.

          Probably best to wait for a completed investigation too before claiming New Zealand's innocence on this.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 4.3.1.4.1
            22 May 2019 at 11:57 am

            Maybe 'NZ' played no part in the 15 March acts of terrorism – maybe Muslims in places of worship in Christchurch are the (murder) victims of a foreign terrorist acting alone, and 'we' (wider NZ and all NZers other than the victims) are simply innocent, albeit naive, bystanders. Unfortunately, there are currently insufficient facts available to decide.

            Maybe the terrorist plotted secretly in complete isolation and received no encouragement or assistance from any like-minded NZers. I fervently hope that's true, but agree with maui that it's prudent to at the very least suspend judgement on the complicity of any NZers, and (given the unprecedented seriousness of the events of 15 March) proceed with caution until the Royal Commission of Inquiry has reported.

            The naivety of NZ's security and intelligence professionals regarding 'our' vulnerability to white supremacist terrorists was certainly a contributing factor.

          • Sabine 4.3.1.4.2
            22 May 2019 at 12:12 pm

            This is the thing when you demand that a society does not discuss these things in public. You don't know what is, you leave lots of speculation and as we can see we already have apologists rock on up denying it was one of us, it was a Foreigner. Lol, cause Australians are foreigners. Yeah, right Tui.

            The white first dudes of this planet are international, they meet, they greet they go to concerts, they go to readings/discussions etc.

            Why do you think Bannon is hanging about in Europe? To sightsee?

            The making any discussion of this criminal act essentially 'verboten' was so far – in my eyes – the single dumbest thing Labour and Ms. Ardern as PM could have done and they have done a few dumb things since they came to power.

            But by essentially pretending it did not happen here, and this is not 'us' and such, they laid the groundwork for future deniers and also they laid the ground – most likely unwittingly (at least i hope this is the case) for it to happen again, cause we ain't learning and we still don't know – the public – with what we are dealing here.

            But then we can't upset dear white people.

            Disclaimer, i am a white person.

    • Anne 4.4
      22 May 2019 at 10:57 am

      @ vto.

      Your comment @ 4 and Paddy Gower's claim "a white supremacist and race problem in NZ has been exposed by the Chch attack"…

      I don't think he was suggesting a direct link with the perpetrator. Rather he is highlighting the fact that white supremacists and racists have been present in NZ for decades which is true because I knew a group of them.

      They didn't roam the streets in leather jackets and boots waving swastika flags. Nor did they call themselves anything. It was back in the 1970s (and part of the 1980s) before social media was a thing and cell phones hadn't been invented. What they did do (among other things ) was roam around disrupting political gatherings and hoaxing individuals. Some of those hoaxes targeted persons of Catholic or Jewish persuasion and in the case of two of them… went on to have serious consequences for the targets and the political party they represented. That is, the Labour Party.

      As a group they hated Maoris, they hated Jews and some of them hated Catholics. They hated Greenpeace and similar groups and they hated unions with a passion – at least in the case of two of them. If they were still around as a group today they would hate Muslims too. I see them now as the fore-runners to the alt right, white supremacists that exist throughout NZ today.

      And here's the crunch: they were members of the Labour Party!

      • vto 4.4.1
        22 May 2019 at 11:13 am

        Yes, understand and appreciate all of that Anne and have seen them for years too. That is all explained in the points above re extremists like them in every society and how it interacts, or doesn't, with the terror attacks.

      • gsays 4.4.2
        22 May 2019 at 1:02 pm

        I have been a guest at 3 Lions Club meetings in the last decade.

        Granted they were small town clubs but the national anthem was only sung in English.

        Felt and feels jarring.

        I don't know if other clubs have different anthem 'policies'.

    • greywarshark 4.5
      22 May 2019 at 10:59 am

      Who is Wallis? Is that a surname? I hope it isn't Wallace Chapman.

  5. vto 5
    22 May 2019 at 8:19 am

    Aussie oi !

    Want to know why the Aussie election went that way? It had nothing to do with Labour, or Liberals or any other party or any of their campaigns. It had nothing to do with the leaders and their charisma or lack of. It had nothing to do with the economy or the local factory or anything else.

    The Aussie election went that way because western voters are now voting in preparation for conflict. And conservatives are where that voting goes.

    That's it.

    And the Christchurch terror attacks, perversely, would have pushed this along.

    edit: this phenomenon has consequences for us in our elections next year…

    • RedLogix 5.1
      22 May 2019 at 8:34 am

      Then there is this interesting analysis:

      The Liberal first preference tally actually fell by close to 1 per cent, according to Australian Electoral Commission counts posted at midday.

      The Liberal vote was 3,293,099, a 0.91 per cent fall from the 2016 level. It’s barely moved over two years, and certainly was not a flood of support.

      So it must have been a Labor decline that did it in. No so. Labor’s first preference vote fell even less than the Liberals’. The ALP had 4,016,676 primary votes, a drop of 0.87 per cent from 2016.

      The lesson, as in all modern elections, is not how many votes a party gets, but where they are cast. The Liberals won 27.76 per cent of the primary vote and Labor 33.86 per cent. But we know who won the election.

      https://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/raw-voting-figures-reveal-the-real-losers-in-saturdays-shock-election/news-story/8401c6ad677fae3ca6af0bd9a6ce161d

      At the same time I’m not against the point your making; there is a real disquiet and the possibility conflict does tilt people towards being cautious.

      • vto 5.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 8:51 am

        A couple of things pointed to the point.

        Firstly, the polls indicated a Labour win, but that didn't eventuate. In other words, people were thinking left, but when push comes to shove and people have been put in fear, then they will vote along different lines – those of self-preservation. And there is plenty to put the people in fear – boat people, Trump NK and Iran etc, Chch.

        Secondly, it is going on worldwide and has been for a few years now – brexit, trump, various euro elections, even the Ukraine comedian. It is a rising phenomenon.

        But yes Red, the point made in your link above is also relevant. Next year's election here will be very interesting – maybe NZ is the last western holdout against the rising tide of conservatism and conflict.

        When's the wedding?

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 9:23 am

          True. I've repeatedly made the point that Australia electorate is not all that politically different to NZ, but their electoral system is. And this more than anything else has driven the result.

          The Greens collected 10.04 per cent of the first preference vote, a total of 1,190,776. The Nationals had 4.89 per cent, or 579,457.

          But the Nationals have won 10 seats and the Greens one. It depends where the votes land.

          • Macro 5.1.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 10:00 am

            Interesting statistics Red.

            It was like that here, but it's the same or even worse, in the US, and the UK. Rural seats tend to be heavily favoured for conservative voters, and the "ruling class", whereas urban seats, with far greater numbers, get much less say in the electoral booth. It's not one person, one vote in such systems. The power of a vote in California, for instance, is only about 1/84 that of a vote in Wyoming.

            • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 10:41 am

              Exactly. I guess what irks me more than a little is the rampant kiwi conceit that our Australian cousins are all six fingered redneck boofheads. No doubt some are, and there is a modest surplus of them in Queensland, but for the most part they're very much like us.

              It's the quirks of their electoral system that make them look more conservative.

              • WeTheBleeple …
                22 May 2019 at 10:47 am

                Aussies are mostly awesome, be prepared for mud slinging, fire it straight back. 😀

                • RedLogix …
                  22 May 2019 at 11:32 am

                  I now have a modest repertoire of sheep jokes for pre-emptive strikes; although sadly they seem to have gone out of fashion in recent times.

      • greywarshark 5.1.2
        22 May 2019 at 11:02 am

        RL That points to an unsatisfactory Oz electoral system. A bit like the FPP that we changed to get a better measure of public sentiment.

      • Gabby 5.1.3
        22 May 2019 at 11:02 am

        Well Labour is cautious to the point of cowardice so they should be fine.

  6. francesca 6
    22 May 2019 at 8:45 am

    And still no mainstream coverage of the document leaked by OPCW staff to the group of UK academics who comprise The Syria Working Group

    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/05/17/confirmed-chemical-weapons-assessment-contradicting-official-syria-narrative-is-authentic/

    The OPCW in its final report refers to "experts" unnamed, rather than its own Fact Finding Team who visited the site

    Newsworthy ,I would have thought.

    The 15 page document is very thorough, and explores different scenarios, eventually concluding that the only plausible scenario was that the cylinders were manually placed rather than dropped by air

    Could Putin and Assad have maliciously brain washed this senior, vastly experienced OPCW investigator?

    Read the report yourself , it addresses elements of the Bellingcat findings (incidentally, unlike the OPCW engineering report,Bellingcat operatives did not visit the site. As always their investigation was conducted in front of a computer screen)

    • Stuart Munro. 6.1
      22 May 2019 at 11:12 am

      Yeah, but you would think that because you rate Consortium News above Bellingcat. Bellingcat have earned a reputation for finding out the truth by image analysis, Consortium News are just another Kremlin mirror site.

      • francesca 6.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 12:05 pm

        OK Stuart

        Consortium news is out for you despite being founded and run until recently by an acclaimed US journalist , Robert Parry

        Wikipedia ok for you ?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

        Perhaps this source won't trigger you , it gets down to the nitty gritty.

        https://opensociet.org/2019/05/19/truth-vanishes-beneath-a-cloud-of-poison-gas/

        • Stuart Munro. 6.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 1:26 pm

          Have you read some of the columns allegedly written by Parry? They are not consistent with a PhD qualified native English speaking journalist. As of several years ago this site abandoned all pretense of journalistic integrity and became a purveyor of wildebeests of dubious provenance – your preferred kind of gnus.

          • Poission 6.1.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 1:59 pm

            Did you read the engineering assessment report by the OPCW ?

            The conclusions (under multiple hypothesis analysis) suggest strongly the containers did not arrive from the air.

            https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayBv-nEOMTtIc-QOvejQBdCnZQXTuJ5z/view

            • Stuart Munro. 6.1.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 2:21 pm

              Yet the conclusions are not robust. The report asserts that the gas cylinders were "more likely to have been placed than to have arrived by air". Ok – but open and shut, which would have required a stronger statement "could not have/were unlikely to have/did not arrive by air".

              Nor, despite the use of OPCW forms, did this form the official report. These were minority views that were ultimately excluded.

              Consortium News has recent form as a largely unreliable bunch of repeaters of proPutin bullshit. Bellingcat is open source – if moved to do so you can check their images and conclusions for yourself.

              • Poission …
                22 May 2019 at 2:27 pm

                Its a probability analysis, it was not a binary problem.

                • Stuart Munro. …
                  22 May 2019 at 2:35 pm

                  It was an unpublished dissenting opinion.

                  It may have been left out for good reason – lacking factual backing for instance. No surprise that a pack of Putin boosters like Consortium would dig it up and circulate it though – most "Independent News Sources" don't have agents in the OPCW however, and the question arises as to how an outfit as threadbare as Consortium manages to fund them.

                  • francesca …
                    22 May 2019 at 3:42 pm

                    Seems you haven't read the links

                    OPCW staff leaked the report to The Syria Working Group, a group of UK academics who I predict you will say are deep in Putin and Assad's pocket

                    From there any media organisation was free to pick it up

                    Our very own Scoop did

                    • Stuart Munro. …
                      22 May 2019 at 3:47 pm

                      Look I know you'll do absolutely anything to push Putin's lines. Why not cite Fancy Bear as evidence? They've attacked Bellingcat unsuccessfully too.

                      Strive to be evenhanded enough not to be dismissed for bias.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    22 May 2019 at 9:12 am

    "Speaker of the House Trevor Mallard says it's his impression from the report on bullying at Parliament that people have been raped there, and he is urging the victims to go to police or support agencies." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/389766/parliament-bullying-mallard-urges-rape-victims-to-seek-support

    "He said his reading of the report was that the offences were all committed by one person, and said he did not know who that person was. He admitted that having them tell their story over and over again was a problem with the court system, "which I know people are looking at, at the moment". "I'm not aware whether they're MPs or staff. Reading the report carefully I get the sense that the man is still on the premises … I don't know who it is, if I knew who it is I would tell the police.""

    JLR triggered this, so many will assume he's the one. Ain't necessarily so. Lack of official rape complaints can be explained by perception that they are a bad career move, I guess. Confidentiality of the review process means crimes get disclosed, and all participants remain anonymous. Nonetheless, Mallard deserves credit for taking responsibility for his past parliamentary violence & trying to do what's right for current victims…

    • marty mars 7.1
      22 May 2019 at 10:06 am

      I don't know who it is, if I knew who it is I would tell the police.""

      JLR triggered this, so many will assume he's the one.

      You are crossing a line there imo – YOU may think that and I've never yet heard another person say it – own your shit dennis and it is shit – dirty and smelly.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 10:28 am

        Not sure what your problem is this time. If it's that you think I believe JLR is a rapist, you're dead wrong. He doesn't seem that kind of person. However, recalling what one of the women he had an affair with told the media last year, it's understandable some would jump to that conclusion.

        So Marty, the shit is all in your mind! Wouldn't it be better to clean it out and dispose of it?? Projecting it onto others seems a waste of time and energy, eh?

        • marty mars 7.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 10:47 am

          it is not understandable at all – your mind thought that up – own it.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1.1
            22 May 2019 at 11:34 am

            There's absolutely no way any of us can own the comment made by that woman last year. Only she can do that. The impression formed in the minds of the readers of her comment is also theirs alone. Nothing to do with me whatsoever!!

            • marty mars 7.1.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 11:42 am

              think on this

              You – i turned off game of thrones at the start – too full of american accents and isms.

              BM – there was only 1 american actor in the first series

              You – oh really? anyway, and so on

              You've got opinions not based on reality and it behooves you not to extrapolate or tenuous connect too far because often you do so with little knowledge as you did with the tiny example I have given.

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 May 2019 at 12:10 pm

                Reminding me that I'm just as human as everyone else isn't actually necessary, incredible though it may seem. My comment was about likely perceptions created in the minds of many, as the result of political developments. You tried to warp the thread into something about me, instead. Better to keep to the topic!

                • marty mars …
                  22 May 2019 at 12:40 pm

                  in case i'm wrong please put one link of anyone else saying what you said and implied – just one example of someone else and these 'likely perceptions in the minds of many' please.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    22 May 2019 at 4:53 pm

                    Why? You believe other commentators on the Standard ought to do research for you? Why? Seems rather irrational. Isn't it obvious that we all have different values and priorities? Human nature!

                    • marty mars …
                      22 May 2019 at 4:58 pm

                      Yep – didn’t think I was wrong on this one. Thanks for the confirmation dennis.

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.2
          22 May 2019 at 11:18 am

          He doesn't seem that kind of person.

          Can anyone help with advice on removing the coffee sprayed on my laptop?surprise

          Pray tell, DF, what does a rapist look/sound like? Because if we knew, we wouldn't have to suspect all of you.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.2.1
            22 May 2019 at 11:40 am

            Come on Rosemary, is there really any point in posing as simple-minded? You know that none of those women would have had affairs with him if they thought he was a rapist, don't you? Would any woman choose to have affair with someone they thought could be a rapist? Obviously they also believed "He doesn't seem that kind of person.

            • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1.2.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 12:13 pm

              You are once again prattling on about things you know nothing about.

              Did you know abused partners go back to an abusive spouse on average SEVEN TIMES before leaving for good.

              "Would any woman choose to have affair with someone they thought could be a rapist?"

              You are so ignorant it's incomprehensible you think you know stuff about this. Have something valid to contribute or just give it a rest for all the victims sake.

              I struggled mightily not to hit you with strings of invective.

              But STFU!

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 May 2019 at 12:38 pm

                Your opinion about what you think I may or may not know is totally irrelevant to the political issues raised by the controversy. No, it is not all about me!! Why is that so hard for you to understand??

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1.2.1.2
              22 May 2019 at 12:33 pm

              "Those women" aren't mind readers, and so might not have been able to determine ahead of time whether or not they were choosing to have an affair with a rapist.

              Even some rapists might not be aware they would rape prior to first offense. 'Reckons' and 'seems' aren’t always on the money – it's not Rosemary who's being simple-minded.

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 May 2019 at 1:23 pm

                So you're agreeing with me: people form impressions about the character of others, and identifying the rapist in parliament isn't a simple matter. Cool.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  22 May 2019 at 1:26 pm

                  So you're confirming how poor your comprehension is? Cool.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    22 May 2019 at 2:02 pm

                    Oh, you intended a different meaning?? Perhaps delineating it explicitly could work better. Elliptical obfuscation only gets us so far…

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 May 2019 at 4:34 pm

                      I agree with your contention that it's unlikely any of those women would have had entered into an affair with someone they thought could be a rapist.

                      "Would any woman choose to have affair with someone they thought could be a rapist?" – DF

                      Perhaps the nub of our disagreement is that you seem to believe that those women (and presumably, by extension, all women) can reliably identify a (potential) rapist prior to engaging in an affair (or whatever.) Now I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but wouldn’t that mean you think rape is the woman's fault, because she ignores the signals from her infallible ‘rapist radar‘, choosing to pursue the affair regardless!

                      If you believe something different then perhaps you should consider taking a course in Plain English! "Elliptical obfuscation" !! Praxis Dennis, praxis.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      22 May 2019 at 4:44 pm

                      You're kidding! Why would anyone feel responsible for whatever impression someone else got?? Of course I don't have such unrealistic expectations of women! I have no idea why you hallucinated such a wacky notion…

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 May 2019 at 5:06 pm

                      Hi Dennis. Now I'm genuinely puzzled. English is my first language, but from your subsequent comments I am obviously misunderstanding the thrust of your comment @7.1.1.2.1.

                      Come on Rosemary, is there really any point in posing as simple-minded? You know that none of those women would have had affairs with him if they thought he was a rapist, don't you? Would any woman choose to have affair with someone they thought could be a rapist? Obviously they also believed "He doesn't seem that kind of person.

                      So it’s simply a matter of belief? You 'believe' that JLR isn't a rapist, and the evidence you cite in support of your belief is that it matches your view of the apparent belief of his multiple sexual partners (the ones we know about)? Is this really the sole basis of your belief?

                      Seems flimsy, but I bow to you superior reasoning and logic.

                    • RedLogix …
                      22 May 2019 at 5:30 pm

                      @DMK

                      'Would you enter into a business partnership with a person who you thought was a fraudster?'

                      I somehow doubt you have any trouble parsing this sentence.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      22 May 2019 at 5:35 pm

                      No, I would never claim "superior reasoning and logic". I don't recall claiming superiority ever, to be honest. And I too am puzzled. Beliefs about other people form in one's mind as the result of impressions they make. Doesn't everyone know that? Hardly contraversial, really! Reasoning doesn't even come into it. Just common knowledge about human nature.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 May 2019 at 5:47 pm

                      'Would you enter into a business partnership with a person who you thought was a fraudster?'

                      I've never entered into a business partnership, but my (uninformed) answer to your hypothetical question is no. My answer might be representative, but I sincerely doubt it is universal.

                      P.S. Did I just believe/feel my potential business partner was a fraudster, or were my thoughts based on objective evidence? That would matter to me. If possible, I would prefer to have some objective evidence to support my thoughts/reckons/feels, but in the absence of such evidence I’d have no option but to follow DF’s lead and ‘go with my gut!

            • Sabine 7.1.1.2.1.3
              22 May 2019 at 2:33 pm

              Would any woman choose to have affair with someone they thought could be a rapist?

              https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/30-01-2019/what-does-a-rapist-look-like/

              One in three women being sexually abused in some way in their lifetimes is met not with horror but with a stream of comments saying, “it’s more one in five!” or “What about men!” or “where do these stats come from?”

              Every woman I know has been sexually harassed, abused, or assaulted. Every single one. If anything I think one in three is lower than the reality. We talk about victims, and how many attacks, because otherwise the question is:

              Who is raping us?

              The answer is your teacher, your mentor, the man whose book you kept next to your bed, your GP, your flatmate, your uncle, the police officer you asked for help, your dentist, your neighbour, your plumber, your best friend, your brother, your manager, your editor, the bouncer at your favourite club, the barista who makes your coffee, your Tinder date, a politician, the guy who fixed your sister’s computer, the bus driver, your cousin, your best friend’s brother, your ex-boyfriend, your husband, the waiter at that restaurant, your dad, your personal trainer …

              That’s harder to ignore than:

              A monster.

              An evil man.

              A guy who was “a bit off”.

              Someone who was “not right”.

              And ignoring the issue of sexual violence is what we do.

              It’s estimated that 90% of sexual violence is committed by someone known to the victim. They didn’t see something off, because there wasn’t anything off. There wasn’t any indication. No early warning system. No alarm. No red flag.

              • RedLogix …
                22 May 2019 at 5:32 pm

                @ Sabine

                In your view what percentage men are rapists?

                • Sabine …
                  22 May 2019 at 6:25 pm

                  a very small one actually. Maybe 5 – 10 % are rapists. I would also venture that rapists are repeat offender.

                  And because we don't actually treat rape as the crime that it is, and we still put the blame on women and girls and lets not even go to the fact that men have their own issues – re toxic masculinity – in reporting this crime, the fact that the police is only sometimes happy enough to actually do its job – often times only when the victim is so bad that they can't really not do anything these rapists get away and do it again and again and again.

                  But, and this is important RL, us women we don't know who is going to rape us. When i went to bed that night as a preteen – sharing the room with my 6 year old sister – i did not know that my stepfather would come and rape me that night. And frankly i am sure that i was not the only one, but just one of many.

                  and that is the issue. We don't know who is going to rape us. We don't know who is going to sexually assault us. We don't know until they do.

                  so to me know it is simple. So as long as i don't know the bloke, i am not going to accept drinks, not going to drive in his car, not going without a weapon of sorts alone in a carpark, tell my friends where i go, with whom, and i as billions of other women do have a whole scenario that i follow so as to not get raped, assaulted, mugged, killed.

                  but maybe you want to read this, and then you might want to answer me my question, what did you think i will tell you, and what do believe?

                  https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/13/pastor-raped-daughter-14-gets-light-prison-sentence-man-god-9515582/

                  David Richards, 41, was sentenced to 12 years in jail on Thursday in Knox County Tennessee for raping his adoptive daughter – 60 years less than the maximum term sought by prosecutors. As he handed down the lenient sentence, Judge Steve Sword cited Richard’s work as a pastor and the Bible study he began in jail as mitigating factors. Richards was found guilty of rape, incest, and sexual battery by an authority figure for abusing his daughter, Amber Richards, for two years beginning when she was 14, according to the Knoxville News Sentinel.

                  she is just lucky he did not impregnate.

          • greywarshark 7.1.1.2.2
            22 May 2019 at 12:44 pm

            Rosemary About coffee on your laptop, not sure. But I dropped quite a bit on my keyboard once. Turned it upside down over a towel and let it drip out then dried off, using a cottonbud for awkward places, and it was fine. It liked the blend. Hope this is helpful.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.3
          22 May 2019 at 12:22 pm

          DF Better not have referred to JLR at all don't you think. Gathering in possible suspects on innuendo is not what I thought a practical man with principles would do.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.3.1
            22 May 2019 at 12:41 pm

            I've made the point about the relevance of political psychology many times: these situations emphasise how relevant it is! Some commenters here try to shoot the messenger, but who cares?? Mass psychology drives public perceptions of political events, regardless how many commenters try to be puerile.

            • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1.3.1.1
              22 May 2019 at 12:47 pm

              Utter gobshite of a man.

            • McFlock 7.1.1.3.1.2
              22 May 2019 at 4:50 pm

              If it's a conclusion that many people would make by themselves, your connection between the report and a specific individual would be redundant.

              For those people who hadn't made that (extremely unreliable) association, you have now made it for them.

              I'm not seeing a good side to that aspect of your comment.

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 May 2019 at 5:00 pm

                You think reminding people of the political context of Mallard's impression isn't good?? Would you like to explain why you believe historical context is bad to include in political discussion? Or do you believe JLR's affairs didn't trigger the review. Or both??

                • McFlock …
                  22 May 2019 at 5:13 pm

                  so many will assume he's the one.

                  That's the bit to which I can't see any good side, but it's also the only bit that adds any information. "reminding people of the political context" is just you being patronising.

                  You could just have easily said "JLR triggered this, so perhaps some good has come out of that entire tawdry series of events: exposing the toxic culture of parliament".

                  edit: Stuff reports it was a staffer anyway. Thanks for your concern.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    22 May 2019 at 5:44 pm

                    Glad it wasn't him. No, my concern for him doesn't need thanks, & I ain't nobody's patron. angel

                  • greywarshark …
                    22 May 2019 at 10:05 pm

                    DF has that unremitting unrepentant side. Being a rational man, everything he says is rational, it just follows.

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    22 May 2019 at 10:33 am

    British aristocrat resorts to centrism: "Lord Heseltine made clear he would resist any attempt to force him out of the party over his stance on the election on 23 May." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/european-elections-michael-heseltine-brexit-lib-dems-conservatives-a8920376.html

    "Tory grandee Michael Heseltine has said he will not be supporting the Conservatives in the European election, and will instead vote Liberal Democrat. The former deputy prime minister and lifelong pro-European said the party has become “infected by the virus of extremism” and he cannot endorse its support for leaving the EU."

    "In an article for The Sunday Times, he said: “The reason for my experiment with the Lib Dems is, of course, the government’s position on Brexit. I cannot, with a clear conscience, vote for my party when it is myopically focused on forcing through the biggest act of economic self-harm ever undertaken by a democratic government.” His call for the Tories to reclaim the political centre ground was echoed by former prime minister Sir John Major."

    • greywarshark 8.1
      22 May 2019 at 11:12 am

      I think the study of history generally and that of politics should include the cycles that occur where countries and large groups go into a spasm of self-harming behaviour. Is it a default position to go for some apparently pure and uncompromising method when times get hard and a certain level of anxiety is reached? Many countries or large social entities are definitely suffering from 'spasms' at present.

  9. David 9
    22 May 2019 at 10:43 am

    Speaking of those self identified Christians and regarding abortion laws Chris Hedges has

    a reasoned piece;

    "Ignore the religious rhetoric and moral posturing about abortion. This debate is not about the sanctity of life. It is about corporate capitalists who desperately need more bodies and intend to coerce women to produce them"

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/americas-reproductive-slaves/

    • Sabine 9.1
      22 May 2019 at 12:30 pm

      coercion – /kəʊˈəːʃ(ə)n/ noun

      1. the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

        synonyms:force, compulsion, constraint, duress, oppression, enforcement, harassment, intimidation, threats, insistence, demand, arm-twisting, pressure, pressurization, influence

      well that is a polite term to say – criminalise an act and remove it to the point were the only way to have an abortion is a self induced one.

      but yes he is right.

  10. mosa 10
    22 May 2019 at 11:08 am

    With regards to this report on bullying at parliament this from RNZ

    "Now it has been laid bare in the report by independent reviewer Debbie Francis but still the elected representatives guilty of grossly abusing their positions remain anonymous and will likely never be publicly identified."

    We have a right to know who these individual MPs are after all they are responsible for their behaviour as elected and appointed individuals.

    This is a cop out !

    • greywarshark 10.1
      22 May 2019 at 11:27 am

      Oh come on mosa. Just getting the information was important to build the picture, and complainants and informants were promised that it would be kept private. We do know it goes on. We cannot afford to go into a 'spasm' of blame and punishment over past practice when our attention needs to be on CC and international machinations. And it has happened, so our lagging attention to the future mustn't be dragged away again from facing forward.

      So no it is not a cop out, that's just ignoring facts:

      1. Informants were promised privacy.
      2. It would be disruptive of the uneasy balance in Parliament and its efficacy for its big job.
      3. If the victims of serious harassment and rape want to bring an action they should be assisted in this but need to understand that others who don't want to bring it to the light of day will unwittingly be exposed to public gaze.
      4. The Labour government will again be going further than its mandate of running the country well, in wanting to be ideologically pure, instead of being both principled and practical. That part will be in establishing a sleaze-free approach to what we have been told is a government process that can be very demeaning and bullying to those not part of the in-group.
      • mosa 10.1.1
        22 May 2019 at 12:03 pm

        greywarshark sensitivities aside what i am arguing is that if these MPs remain hidden then how can the public and those wanting a career in parliament have any confidence that the house of representatives is dealing with the culprits and that people will take responsibility for their actions.

        When you choose to serve the public and be paid by them how you conduct yourself is important and should be transparent.

        This from No right turn.

        The report of course refuses to name those MPs, meaning that the independent reviewer is effectively part of this conspiracy of silence as well. Which is not acceptable. Naming names is the first step towards accountability, and that needs to happen if anything is to change.

        http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/05/a-toxic-workplace.html

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1
          22 May 2019 at 12:35 pm

          It's a difficult one. People who err so arrogantly should be brought to account. They are getting away with nasty stuff.

          But then there has been a pact of privacy. We know that stats say that much sexual misbehaviour and crime is not reported so can't be taken further and justice meted. So BAU if nothing is done from this report.

          And one lack of justice does not excuse another lack of justice and respect – to those who came forward. The Witchhunter Generals' opinions that purity and sanctimony will prevail if the victims are burned along with their perpetrators will, I am absolutely sure, not be agreed with by those most affected who will feel persecuted.

          Sometimes there is no easy answer to achieving probity. Back off WG's and pour cold water on your hot breaths of retribution; put your simplistic interference to one side to avoid adding further trauma to this unhappy revelation.

  11. OnceWasTim 11
    22 May 2019 at 1:12 pm

    @greywarshark.

    I've just had to drop EVERYTHING! Jesse had a bad experience in the RNZ lift.

    (I'm thinking of the children of course – what IF the worst had happened? And fresh from going over some handlebars)

    I really don't think I could cope

    • greywarshark 11.1
      22 May 2019 at 4:12 pm

      Huh. He should try commenting on TS. I've had and seen some bad experiences. What a wimp.

  12. Poission 12
    22 May 2019 at 2:42 pm

    A new peril on high street.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/rnz/new-christchurch-building-has-serious-flaws-engineers

    The leaked report – from engineering firm Beca to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment – said the narrow, glass-fronted block at 230 High Street has:

    • piles that are about 10 times too weak
    • a support column that is overloaded by five times
    • steel frame fixings that are not strong enough
    • inadequate foundations

    The report also said calculations underestimated the earthquake loading by 25%.

    Time for some selective logging with council.

    • greywarshark 12.1
      22 May 2019 at 4:08 pm

      The Korean engineer assures us it is quite okay. And I am sure that his credentials are also as we have good standards in NZ and good surveillance of those standards.

  13. greywarshark 13
    22 May 2019 at 4:06 pm

    This am on Radionz there was a report on the use of a computer check on social welfare call centre responses. This check was designed by a person at AUT. I am wary of computer paradigms being the deciding factor of people's entitlements. But the check on the program would help to establish if there had been racial bias I think. So it was helpful to run calls past it to see how it registered. They looked at calls that had been passed on for action and calls that were recorded and not actioned, to see if this resulted in further calls indicating real need for action.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018696159/can-a-computer-model-accurately-identify-kids-at-risk-of-abuse

    Kathryn speaks with Stanford University Associate Professor of Medicine, Jeremy Goldhaber-Fiebert, who has evaluated the effectiveness of a predictive risk assessment tool developed by a New Zealand researcher and implemented for two years in the United States. The Ministry of Social development originally commissioned Professor Rhema Vaithianathan, Co-Director of the Centre for Social Data Analytics at AUT to develop the model. It uses data about children and their families to identify those at risk of physical, sexual or emotional abuse before the age of two. MSD stopped short of implementing the tool, but Allegheny County in Pittsburg, Pensylvania began using it in 2016, and commissioned Stanford University researchers to evaluate it.

    Oranga Tamariki dispensed with this a year or so ago. I am concerned that we don't instead get into sanctimonious, pious territory of 'We know best' and judgmental rather than compassionate, appropriate support responses.

    The rise of RW conservative women with an opinion of themselves as model cultural templates is noticeable, finding platforms such as anti-abortion and anything that is a change in societal norms. They adopt towards the precariat and women considered below their societal level, attitudes of derision, or patronising and officious power.

    Their success in the anti-abortion measures in eight states of the USA will whet their appetite to fight here. The large response against the attempt to introduce a very mild euthanasia bill is an example of their reach and influence. A backgrounder on the citizen consultation held throughout NZ says that the 9 minute time allowed for oral submissions was applied for by thousands who often merely stated their disagreement. Nick Smith and Maggie Barry facilitated this process, though Ms Barry was accused of adopting a disrespectful tone to some.

    The conservative religious, such as the conservative Catholic and conservative Pasifika congregations combined will be a force against rights that women hold dear. Choosing overseas people for appointments over NZs, may increase the type of conservative, neo-liberal official or CEO. We have Irish conservative Catholic Mrs Moss at Oranga Tamiriki for which a local person could easily have been found. We also have Dr Mary English who is conservative Catholic and has Pasifika roots, building relationships in health and welfare for Pasifika people. These are people in key roles. When the National Party stopped funding the suicide health line and gave the contract to Dr English's organisation, *The Daily Blog cried favouritism and nepotism for Bill English's wife. Many community organisations working at the coalface of welfare, with much experience have felt the cold winds of funding neglect. We need to watch where the funding goes, and that it is fairly distributed to those who do much with little, without much patronage.

    *https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/08/02/hold-on-national-cut-suicide-helpline-to-give-contract-to-bill-englishs-wife/

  14. Eco maori 14
    24 May 2019 at 8:08 am

    Kia ora The Am Show.

    Students strike today kia kaha it agree make it 0 carbon by 2040 moving the goal ahead by 10 years .

    Banning sugary or big taxes is a know brainer it should have been implemented years ago the bad facts are all there to see WTF.

    The big hole in the government balance sheat was created by joyce

    Amanda that is a powerful tawhirimate in America tossing cars around like toys don global warming its staring you in the FACE.

    Duncan Its good to see that you get it with the police chasers the people who are being chased are out of control.

    The parents of these tamariki being chased could be working 2 jobs to survive with the low wages and high living cost take the glasses off Mark.

    Geffory Rush I quite like the characters he has played its good to see him get JUSTICE.?????????????????????????????.

    If the policys look like a Christian party it a Christian party why don't they run a Wahine up and lift Maori Wahine all Wahine mana up. Its good you want good changes. But I am protecting the left from the cheating rednecks who will strip the common persons wealth and give our powercompanys to the wealthy. I know who is pushing this I can see the consequences of your actions. I agree the housing situation is bad thanks to national this phenomenon has swept the western world I wonder why House less tangata. If this movement was logical and not emotional you would target the drugs that actually cause harm even target sugar.???????????

    There you go judy a pauleen hanson you're views are very similar hence your toilet won't float in Aotearoa maybe you should go to Australia.

    Don't compare Aotearoa to Venuzla it a total tug of war between the east and west that is tearing apart that country .

    I'm still suspicious of your polls

    Ka kite ano

  15. Eco maori 15
    24 May 2019 at 10:14 am

    We should commit to reducing our carbon footprint as fast as possible.

    Its the correct thing to do it is what humans have done for millions of years providing a better future for our tamariki.

    What is happening now is not human or humane money is the root of these inhuman traits to rise to the top of humanity's way of doing things.

    Some are totally focused on today and not on our mokopuna tomorrow's our futures well being the neanderthal are blinded by money they use this money to blind the common people of the world to believe there lies that are all about protecting the oil barons wealth and POWER.

    Why you should take action on climate change

    mpact on the environment because I want a future I can look forward to. And at the rate we're going, I know my hope is unrealistic, to say the least.

    One million species are threatened with extinction. Make that one million and one – the human race should be on there. We are already seeing the direct consequences of climate change on real people as natural disasters are exacerbated by heat rise and people are made to flee their homes due to the damage done by these catastrophes. It's no secret that climate change is already showing its claws to the human race.

    We are lucky, however, that we are so privileged to have the opportunity to stop it. We are the people who, in the future, will either be venerated for making the changes necessary to stop the full effects of climate change on the human race, or despised for ignoring the warning signs Ka kite ano links below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/112939231/why-you-should-take-action-on-climate-change

  16. Eco maori 16
    24 May 2019 at 11:17 am

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  17. Eco maori 17
    24 May 2019 at 12:39 pm

    Humans causing shrinking of nature as larger animals die off

    Average size of wild animals predicted to fall by a quarter in 100 years through extinctions

    The researchers estimate that more than 1,000 larger species of mammals and birds will go extinct in the next century, from rhinos to eagles. They say this could lead to the collapse of ecosystems that humans rely on for food and clean water.

    Humans have wiped out most large creatures from all inhabited continents apart from Africa over the last 125,000 years. This annihilation will accelerate rapidly in the coming years, according to the research.

    The future extinctions can be avoided if radical action is taken to protect wildlife and restore habitats, and the scientists say the new work can help focus efforts on key species.

    Animal populations have fallen by 60%since 1970, suggesting a sixth mass extinction of life on Earth is under way caused by the razing of wild areas, hunting and intensive farming. Scientists said this month that human society was in danger from the decline of the Earth’s natural life-support systems, with half of natural ecosystems now destroyed and a total of a million species at risk of extinction Ka kite ano links below

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/23/humans-causing-shrinking-of-nature-as-larger-animals-die-off

  18. Eco maori 18
    24 May 2019 at 1:41 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  19. Eco maori 19
    24 May 2019 at 4:28 pm

    It is cool that the environmentalist are being given honors and recognize for their hard work.

    Environmental heroes: the environmental awards

    On May 1, Princess Anne, patron of the Whitley Fund for Nature, presented the fund’s awards recognising community-based conservation projects

    Ka kite ano links below. P.S I know one who deserves recognition.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2019/may/21/environmental-heroes-the-2019-whitley-award-winners

  20. Eco maori 20
    24 May 2019 at 6:26 pm

    Kia ora Newshub

    Kia kaha to the Students Strikes to much you give Eco Maori a sore face with the numbers that turn out today.

    I say its good to make the banks hold more money in reserve for a 1 in 200 year financial crash the markets are all over the place .

    Lloyd it doesn't look good for may .and it looks like the right necks have hacked the system again while the right and left were fighting.

    It's a warm start to winter this year we have not even needed to light a fire yet that's usually for Vags

    Mike I seen that Geffory Rush getting his JUSTICE he is a good actor.

    I see the don through his toys out of his cot .

    Ka kite ano

  21. Eco maori 21
    24 May 2019 at 6:48 pm

    Kia ora te ao Maori news

    Thanks to Nanaia and the Provenance growth fund giving 50 million over 5 years to assist Maori farmer whanau in the development of there whenua in te taiwhiti.

    Pee is a shocking poison its just as bad in te taiwhiti it is making a mess of te tangata

    I think is a awesome idea to combine studying papatuanuku and getting the Kaumatua knowledge on the subjects

    The Pacific music awards were on last night was very good Eco Maori loves his music ka kite ano

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