Open mike 22/05/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 22nd, 2023 - 51 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

51 comments on “Open mike 22/05/2023 ”

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  1. bwaghorn 1
    22 May 2023 at 6:29 am

    Question??

    Is the funding for Glenbrook mills new electric burner being funded by carbon credits, if not why not??

    Sorry in a hurry so no links etc

  2. Incognito 2
    22 May 2023 at 9:11 am

    I just love it when a sharp mind with excellent critical skills destroys manipulative populism from David Seymour and ACT.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132087865/why-critical-maths-adds-up

    Well done, Donna Miles!

    • ianmac 2.1
      22 May 2023 at 9:56 am

      Well spotted and thanks Donna. Maths needs contexts otherwise it is meaningless to learners. Kids should use maths in order to understand social problems but those who see maths as just 1+1= 2 are likely to turn out like Seymour. Sadly.

  3. Sanctuary 3
    22 May 2023 at 9:15 am

    Anyone else think the free prescription subsidy was also a massive lifeline to local pharmacies struggling with the competition from the Chemist Warehouse?

    The more I think about it, the more assinine Nicola Willis's kneejerk response to that bit of the budget was – locally owned small businesses feeling the pressure of an Aussie owned corporate ought to be the bread and butter of National's support base. It shows how far modern “cponservatism” has strayed toward culture war crony capitalism that she didn’t instinctively know how that comment might play in Ashburton.

    • Incognito 3.1
      22 May 2023 at 9:19 am

      Yup, levelling the playing field, somewhat.

    • Patricia Bremner 3.2
      22 May 2023 at 2:12 pm

      Yes I thought so Sanctuary, as there are hardly any independent Chemists on Gold Coast, as they found Chemist Warehouse impossible to compete with.

      That could happen here, so a great move by the Government to favour our own by covering charges.

      CW has been offering "free" postage (over a certain buy) and free script charges on click and collect.

      Chemists do far more since the pandemic, and we need them to remain viable.

  4. tWiggle 4
    22 May 2023 at 10:00 am

    Talking of culture wars..

    For those who may be interested, this study in the journal Race and Class maps the incestuous nature of British 'anti-woke' ideologues, their think tanks, media vehicles and campaigns.

    An anatomy of the British war on woke

    Cited in a Guardian article on the UK National Conservatives, a recent political face of the movement.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/21/tories-opposition-danger-national-conservatism-conference-rightwing

  5. tWiggle 5
    22 May 2023 at 10:45 am

    Finally, some real NZ data on reported assaults in public spaces like toilets, and in prisons by transgender women.

    ‘A recent long-form read by David Fisher in the NZ Herald (paywalled) talks in depth about “scaremongering” around bathrooms and changing rooms: “The arguments espoused most fervently come with the least evidence,” Fisher wrote.

    Fisher cites police reporting, both here and overseas: 'Police here have no reported cases of women being assaulted in toilets or changing rooms by trans women. That matches with research done in the US after exclusionary bathroom laws were passed in some states. A 2018 study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law found no evidence supporting fears of privacy and safety violations involving trans people.'

    Similarly, there is no evidence of this risk in prisons: 'The Department of Corrections reports no sexual violence involving the 16 trans women who have served time since 2018. Violence, too, is low with two non-serious assaults recorded since July 2020 in which a trans woman was identified as the perpetrator. Over the same period, there were 324 assaults in total in women’s prisons.” ‘

    The quote comes from a Spinoff article posted today.

    What is the media’s responsibility when reporting trans disinformation?

    • Molly 5.1
      22 May 2023 at 11:20 am

      Data – and quality data are not the same thing. Data regarding harm needs to be comprehensively and determinedly collected by objectively neutral researchers before you can come to conclusions. The statistics we do have that are robust relating to sexual assault – of all kinds, indicates a significant benefit to single-sex provisions.

      As you appear to have absolutely no consideration for safeguarding, privacy dignity or consent in regards to women and girls in single-sex spaces, I make the following suggestion:

      Leave those who see value in such spaces to them and join the men whom you want to share with in the men's provision.

      The advantages of this are easily noted:

      1. No continued conflation of sex and gender identity, which just confuses people.
      2. Female facilities remain single-sex provisions, (albeit with the acknowledgement that females – such as you – who want to share with men, are doing so without everyone's consent and with no respect for male privacy and dignity)
      3. This allows women – such as yourself – to practically and visibly show their support for men with gender identities – without imposing or assuming all other women and girls feel the same.
      4. Men with gender identities – can now pee – which apparently was impossible without the presence of women – reducing the likelihood of urinary tract infections or bladder or bowel explosions.
      5. One significant benefit – ANY discussion about transgression (wink) over single-sex boundaries is redirected AWAY from the men with gender identities – whom you no doubt consider already persecuted – and towards yourself and all the other women who join you in the men's facilities. This allows you to protect them from further harm, by making you the transgressor.

      (Note: This is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion… unless it solves the issue…)

      The Spinoff article is the usual conflation of links and and confident assertions with poor quality basis for such.

      Jennifer Shields has (fore)skin in the game, and the article shows this.

      What is not apparent, is the demonstration of this wordsmith’s skills when making threats against women online. Now, I understand that without screenshots, you will be asked to make a choice on who is believable here, article writer – Jennifer Shields or Ani O'Brien – but that will depend on personal factors – so will just leave this here for you to consider:

      https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1660384773876101120?s=20

      https://twitter.com/jennifilm/status/1660390420818563072?s=20

      • tWiggle 5.1.1
        22 May 2023 at 1:22 pm

        Ani O'Brien who works for The Platform and Sean Plunkett?

      • tWiggle 5.1.2
        23 May 2023 at 6:44 pm

        And this happened in 2014-5, when Shields was 21, two years into hormonal transition, and perhaps a little vulnerable?; while O'Brien was a few years older. I wonder what O'Brien said or did that elicited Shield's insults? Just thinking of the context.

        Article confirming Shield's age

        • Molly 5.1.2.1
          23 May 2023 at 7:45 pm

          " Just thinking of the context."

          When you have a chance to put your "thinking" to paper, I'd be interested in hearing what "context" expressing the hope that someone is raped with a chainsaw is acceptable.

          Also, in what "context" such an expression is labelled an insult, rather than a violent threat.

    • Visubversa 5.2
      22 May 2023 at 12:51 pm

      Toko Shane (Ashley) Winter is in Paremoremo prison where he belongs. However, "Pandora Electra" is in Springhill Women's prison, but as a person with convictions for violence (including a knife attack on his former partner and others) and what is described as "complex" needs, he will be under very close supervision.

      Ireland, of course has the infamous "Barbie Kardashian" in Limerick Women's prison. https://thecountess.ie/limerick-prison-the-rights-of-female-prisoners/

      And there are gatherings of evidence on the international stage. https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/rights-and-wrongs-how-gender-self-identification-policy-places-women-at-risk-in-prison/?mc_cid=fc75df3a16&mc_eid=602ecaffca&fbclid=IwAR3A_NnfBrP0XG4C6L30NpkYG6nYaL5SskrjBmT0yGms1SXyejH8bS89GZo

      There are a lot of other reasons why men who claim special identities should not be imprisoned with women.

      https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/male-prisoners-who-claim-to-be-women?fbclid=IwAR0h2QnLv35yY_6S3_UV8r1zvf41MUS1OYFKzZoq3ddUPtkmGrcQ1JuuQLc

      "It shows that nearly 60% of trans-identified male prisoners in the UK are sex offenders, making them 3.5 times more likely to be sex offenders than men who don’t identify as women. It should surprise no one that they are also nearly 18 times more likely to be sex offenders than women in prison.

      The first time this fact was brought to wider attention was with official United Kingdom Ministry of Justice statistics obtained in 2020. The data was submitted as evidence by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock, and Professor Alice Sullivan to the Reform of the Gender Recognition Act inquiry."

      • tWiggle 5.2.1
        22 May 2023 at 1:24 pm

        And that is why entry into NZ's womens' prisons is not a right in NZ, but is evaluated for each case, according to Corrections.

        • tWiggle 5.2.1.1
          22 May 2023 at 1:26 pm

          …a right for transgender women..

          • Visubversa 5.2.1.1.1
            22 May 2023 at 1:37 pm

            And who asked why these men who have opened their mouths and uttered the magical incantation "I identify as" should have the "right" be imprisoned with some of the most vulnerable women in our society, many of whom (if not most of them), have suffered from male violence, and do not have the "right" to refuse to be housed with men.

            Self ID means that any man – repeat any man, – who says he is a woman mysteriously becomes one. No diagnosis, no hormones, no surgery is required. He does not even have to shave off his beard.

            • tWiggle 5.2.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2023 at 2:54 pm

              This is a treadmill argument from you, Visubversa.

              As I have discussed before, Stats NZ gives around 11,000 people identifying as transgender women in NZ. Ireland (similar population to ours), introduced a self-id law similar to ours in 2015. Around 100 transgender women a year actually use the self-id option, primarily for legal reasons like wills, etc. Many other countries round the world have self-id laws, like, eg. Brazil. I found this out from a 5 min internet search.

              The transgender community already use most public spaces such as womens' toilets in NZ, and have been for decades. The article I cited gave at least a link to NZ data on transgender crimes associated with these spaces. The police do not identify a problem with self-id, or they would have made a submission when the self-id legislation came up. You cannot take away others' rights without hard facts.

              • Visubversa …
                22 May 2023 at 3:56 pm

                Yes, the trans community did use public and private toilets that corresponded with their "gender identity" for decades, and still do. I I have been in the "Women's Rest Room" at the same time as Georgina Beyer at several Labour Party Conferences. We were both there to do the same thing, use the convenience, flush, wash our hands and depart. Trans people like Georgina are no problem to lesbians like me. Georgina and others of her generation were gay men at a time when sex between men was unlawful. They "transed away the Gay" but were still same sex attracted.

                These days it is quite different. Even the term "same sex attracted" is called an "anti Trans dogwhistle". Many of the people claiming trans status of one sort or another are heterosexual.

                And there is always this sort of problem.

                https://transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/02/katie-dolatowski/?fbclid=IwAR0EFtiQ8R6shurVxfq8kaggKJcxg3B1-5A5y5AWkTHq4P2qUTWHENxmy18

          • Molly 5.2.1.1.2
            22 May 2023 at 2:22 pm

            Why assume the Department of Corrections is absolved from the responsibility of treating men with gender identities with humanity, dignity and respect while in the male prison estate? What right are you referring to?

            https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/policy_and_legislation/human_rights_in_new_zealand_prisons

            Prison policy was changed without public knowledge or discussion in 2018:

            https://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/42324/C124483_Information_on_transgender_and_gender_diverse_individuals_in_custody.pdf

            In March 2018, Corrections introduced a policy for the management of transgender individuals, with a focus on being more responsive to them and their circumstances. Each transgender individual has a customised support plan and is able to choose the gender of staff who conduct searches. The provision of a support plan does not depend on whether the transgender individual has legal recognition of their gender identity, or whether they have undergone medical or surgical steps.

            (Note: No mention of any assessments of the impact on the female prison estate or female prisoners.)

            I.10 Management of transgender prisoners

            https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/policy_and_legislation/Prison-Operations-Manual/Induction/I.10-Management-of-transgender-prisoners

            • tWiggle 5.2.1.1.2.1
              22 May 2023 at 2:57 pm

              And where is the issue again?

              • Stuart Munro …
                22 May 2023 at 4:23 pm

                It reality comes down to throwing one's weight around.

                Relatively recently, trans in NZ began to assert 'rights' as opposed to behaving in a manner that respected others.

                As one youtuber commented:

                "If a grown man wants to pretend to be a woman he has a perfect right. But if he wants someone else to pretend he's a woman, that person has a perfect right to refuse."

                In pursuit of these non-existent rights they vilify and antagonize or assault anyone that dares to question their dodgy new orthodoxy.

                • tWiggle …
                  22 May 2023 at 8:13 pm

                  I saw a man wearing a backpack and ordinary mens’ clothes assault a woman in video of that incident. A 20 year-old from Tauranga has been charged. Any evidence he was transgender?

                  He could have been upset for a family membe. Not an excuse, but don't forget Posie Parker has said some horrible things about trans people and their families.

                  Tasmanian senator denounces Posie Parker for her words in Hobart

                  Other people have been charged with assault in the same protest. Including an older man with neo-Nazi affiliation who repeated physically harassed a short woman marshall from the anti-PP counterprotest. The incidences of physical violence in the crowd were very few, and the police are prosecuting without bias, as they should.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    22 May 2023 at 11:20 pm

                    And all of this violence stems from asserting rights that impose upon others.

                    It is not enough to live quietly in new gendered identities – the demand is that they be respected. So much for not doing it in the streets and frightening the horses.

                    This is difficult, because contemporary theories of gender identity sit poorly with little things like genetics. And, there are plenty of ordinary persons (especially journalists) that almost no-one respects anyway.

                    In time the matter may calm down, and result in accommodations akin to religious and single sex schools.

                    At present however, dissent is heretical – dangerous and forbidden.

                    • tWiggle …
                      23 May 2023 at 9:09 pm

                      Actually Stuart Munro, the violence happened because Posie Parker, a UK media personality, who has expressed violently anti-trans ideas, visited NZ to stage public events. Her funding came from CPAC, a right wing political group which with policies against LGB people, trans people and which is anti-abortion.

                      PParker has said trans women suffer from an abnormal sexual fixation that leads inevitably to pedophilia, thinks trans men should be forcibly sterilised, calls families who support their trans children 'groomers', and calls on US men with guns to use womens' toilets, in order to 'protect' womenfolk against a nonexistant threat from trans women (as validated by years of trans inclusionary toilet policies in 10 US states). All of these words of hers are documented, if not to be found on her website.

                      Violent words are not violent deeds, it is true, but they csn incite others to act. I don't think anyone in government was aware of the extent of Posie Parker's hate speech at the time she was allowed entry. As for the counter-protest, it was organised to be noisy but non-violent.

                      If some had heightened emotions in response to PParker at her event, well that's easy to understand given her anti-trans rhetoric. PParker was also seriously let down by the Mickey Mouse security firm she chose to hire at the last minute. Even more let down by that firm, and also let down by Posie, who appeared to abandon them, were the women who were to speak at her event.

                      PP's hate speech goes a long way beyond complaining, as you and others here do, that inclusionary language, increased social visibility and acceptance for the small group of trans NZers (around 24,000) somehow excludes or invalidates the other 5 million of us and our identities. Seems a disproportionate response to me.

                      I oppose PP's hate speech, and dislike the mush of disinformation around trans issues, which is why I post on this topic. Also, in examining the pros and cons of the trans debate recently, I have found that I value being part of an incusionary, not an exclusionary society.

                      Having week-on week-off custody of my child with their father from early on, I believe that parenting, not mothering or carrying a foetus, defines our relationship with our children in families. Not highly identifying with girlie-girl culture, I don't mind stretching the term 'woman' to include a few others. I know who I am, and am happy with my identity.

                      I don't perceive trans people as being more threatening than anyone else about their usual business on the street or in a public toilet. Neither do I believe that trans people should be saints – merely as human as the rest of us, with the usual numbers of bad apples and criminal offenders.

                      I also recognise that Posie Parker and anti-trans messaging comes from a well-funded international right-wing political movement, which is cunning in its use of social media.

                  • Anker …
                    23 May 2023 at 8:24 pm

                    Stop making excusing for the violence against women meeted out by the trans rights activists at Albert Park. This is frankly a disgusting thing to do.

                    I might have some little bit of respect if the tras and the likes of Marama Davidson who when asked failed to condemn the violence against women (when she is Minister of Violence Prevention) had outright condemned the violence metted out by the angry, threatening menacing mob.

                    We have fought for years to stop this bloody blame the victim of violence agaubst women. Shame on you.

                    The older man whoever he was should be investigated by the police and charged if found he has a crime to answer for.

                    The only older man I saw at Albert Park was an old geezer who was pushed and shoved. Not by the Let women Speak mob.

                  • Belladonna …
                    23 May 2023 at 8:28 pm

                    Other people have been charged with assault in the same protest. Including an older man with neo-Nazi affiliation who repeated physically harassed a short woman marshall from the anti-PP counterprotest.

                    Was this at the Auckland event? Or the Tasmanian one (I can't tell from the structure of your comment).
                    If it was the Auckland one, can you link – I've not seen this reported.

                  • Belladonna …
                    23 May 2023 at 8:47 pm

                    There is very little information over whether or not the 20-year old (apparently from Gisborne, not Tauranga) is or is not a man; or whether they self-ID as a woman, or as a man, or are an ally, or anything at all about their motivation.
                    The police statements, as far as I can see, appear to be gender neutral – and have shut down all further comment while the case is before the courts

                    Earlier, police said in a statement a 20-year-old had been charged over an "assault on an elderly female at the Albert Park protest" on March 25.

                    It's the press who have reported that this person is a man.

                    https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/04/20/man-appears-in-court-accused-of-punching-woman-at-parker-rally/

                    There is, however, no doubt about the trans-woman who poured tomato juice over Parker. Her transition history is given in the linked article.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300848339/protester-pleads-not-guilty-to-assault-after-throwing-juice-on-posie-parker

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    23 May 2023 at 9:41 pm

                    By their works shall ye know them.

                    And the trans activists' work is an elderly woman with a fractured skull.

                    If you think you can justify that, you'd better think again.

                  • Belladonna …
                    23 May 2023 at 10:32 pm

                    Actually Stuart Munro, the violence happened because Posie Parker, a UK media personality, who has expressed violently anti-trans ideas, visited NZ to stage public events.

                    Actually, the violence happened because a violent person chose to engage in violent actions against someone else.
                    For which, they have been arrested and charged in court.

                    There is no excuse.

                    It doesn't matter what PP might have said earlier (there was no chance that anyone heard what she might have said that day – so she can hardly have inflamed the crowd)

                    Anyone can choose to participate in a protest. Can chant slogans, and wave signs, and make their voice and perspective heard *without* feeling the need to haul off and hit someone.

                    Being at a protest is, by definition, an environment of heightened emotion. People don't go and protest because they feel mild disagreement with someone or something – they care passionately.

                    However, choosing to cross the line into violence is not something that most of our society finds an easily forgivably transgression.

                    If the counter-protest was designed to be non-violent, then the protest organizers failed miserably in their organization. And have continued the failure by choosing not to condemn the violence which occurred.

                    Personally, I disagree with much of what I've read from PP. I find some of her rhetoric distasteful, and …. unkind … to say the least.

                    However, I do *not* support the violent suppression of free speech.

                    If you disagree with something, by all means express your disagreement. Present your arguments. But do not try to silence your opposition.

                    The cancel culture has gone more than far enough.

                    Regardless of what you believe in this particular situation – it's a profoundly dangerous principle to be espousing.

    • Anker 5.3
      23 May 2023 at 8:18 pm

      There is plenty of evidence of the danger of trans women in women's spaces in both the UK and US. You must remember that a male bodied person being allowed into women's change rooms automatically makes two sexual offences legal: voyerism and exhibitionism.

      But that is only part of the arguement. You people don't understand that most people don't support gender self ID (vote compass poll before the last election, link previously posted on her and I will re link if required).

      You people miss a good part of the gender critical arguement. It is not only about a direct threat to women (i.e. our objection to male bodied people in our change room). We just don't want to have a male bodied person in our change room while we are in a state of undress (and we are certainly not wanting a male bodied person in a state of undress in our change room) End of story. And I certainly object to a male bodied person being in women's change room with girls and teen girls.

      Any decent male bodied person would get this point of view and not try and insert themselves in women's spaces. It speaks volumes about the male bodied people (transwomen) who don't respect this.

      How about those women who support transwomen (male bodied people) in women's change room start using the mens change room in support of trans women, thus turning the men's into unisex???? How would that work for you?

    • Anker 5.4
      23 May 2023 at 8:47 pm

      David Fisher is a man and can present all the data he likes. He has no business arguing for transwomen in women's spaces. He is a man

  6. roy cartland 6
    22 May 2023 at 11:12 am

    Gotta love those free trade rules! Sure, sure it's technically correct, but is UK and Oz honey what you think of when you think of Manuka? This is how France must feel seeing us produce brie and camembert.

    But the Australian Manuka Honey Association has been appealing the effort in multiple markets – saying honey produced there can also be called mānuka.

    and

    In 2021 the UK rejected a bid by the Mānuka Honey Appellation Society to trademark the term 'manuka honey' in the UK.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/490383/new-zealand-manuka-honey-producers-lose-trademark-bid

    • alwyn 6.1
      22 May 2023 at 12:05 pm

      Sorry Roy but when I think of Manuka honey I think of the bees having obtained their nectar from Manuka flowers and that is what happens in both Australia and New Zealand.

      Provided you blood pressure is well under control I suggest you read this article. A warning though. It is not for the faint hearted. As it says

      "The truth is, there are far more manuka trees in Australia than New Zealand. Australian manuka trees produce quality Australian Manuka Honey that is every bit as pure, natural, and beneficial to health."

      https://simplyhoney.com.au/what-is-australian-manuka-honey/#:~:text=The%20truth%20is%2C%20there%20are,natural%2C%20and%20beneficial%20to%20health.

      You can’t equate it to Brie and Camembert as both are geographical locations in France. We might have had a case if we had named it “New Zealand Leptospermum Scoparium” honey or suchlike.

      • AB 6.1.1
        22 May 2023 at 12:23 pm

        Yes – so called 'branding' is an exercise in fetishism.

      • Mike the Lefty 6.1.2
        22 May 2023 at 5:13 pm

        It's all in a name isn't it?

        The alternative name to Manuka is Tea-tree, sometimes spelled Ti-tree.

        Tea-tree oil is commonly used in soaps and cosmetics overseas and is one of the most effective natural remedies for head lice. Same here except we call it Manuka.

    • tWiggle 6.2
      22 May 2023 at 1:30 pm

      Splitting hairs here. But theoretically NZ producers can trademark the mācroned name, as, while there is a history of teetrees there being called manuka, the macron is local to Te Reo Māori and NZ.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1
        22 May 2023 at 2:18 pm

        A map of NZ with our NZ product label would differentiate our honey.devil

        • tWiggle 6.2.1.1
          22 May 2023 at 2:36 pm

          Apparently, the NZ manuka honey producers association has successfully trademarked Unique Mānuka Factor UMF TM. Australian honey producers are free to market their own validated bioactive trademark. It just can't be UMF.

          The reason why Aussie honey producers want in is because NZ honey exports increased from $97k to $480k from 2010 to 2021. Most of this increased value is due to NZ investment in bioactive quality validation and to brand marketing into the wellness food space.

          You can't import Australian honey to NZ, so UMF is all you'll get. For disease reasons, imports of honey can only come into NZ from a few Pacific Islands.

      • alwyn 6.2.2
        22 May 2023 at 2:49 pm

        That sounds like a very good idea. I'm not a lawyer though.

        I guess the problem would be that no-one living outside New Zealand would realise there was a difference between the word with and without the macron. They would probably assume a bad printing job for the label.

    • Belladonna 6.3
      22 May 2023 at 6:32 pm

      I'd have thought that going down the route that the EU uses in AOC (Appellation d'origine contrôlée) might well pay dividends on the trade side.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e

  7. Tony Veitch 7
    22 May 2023 at 4:14 pm

    The latest Horizon poll – Labour and the Greens on 61 seats and able to form a government.

    National on 23% support – which must be close to their historic low! Thanks, Christopher!

    https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/668/labour-and-

    • Alan 7.1
      22 May 2023 at 4:34 pm

      oh no!

      and Horizon is so accurate!

      • Phillip ure 7.1.1
        22 May 2023 at 5:55 pm

        What is your case for sneering@horizon…?

        At first glance the regional info is impressive…and the clear explanation of the various coalition formulae is useful..

        And national are a political party in decline..

        They have no idea of what to do to fix what we face..

        Just the same old same old key era styling promises for big tax cuts for the richest..and chewing gum tax givebacks for the rest of us…

        The words coming from them only demonstrate that bankruptcy of ideas..

        Words/promises/imperatives from a byegone era…and it shows..!

        And voters eyes then flick to the raving loons they would be in coalition with..

        And aside from that small tranche of true believers who vote for them..the rest of us just shift uneasily in our seats at the very thought of it…

        One valuable role that act plays is that they make the greens seem…to middle new zealanders…with an ill-defined but growing environmental awareness..like a safe pair of hands..

        Whereas act froth at the mouth at the idea of cutting benefits..and the like..

        Total bastards..basically..

        (And if I could shoehorn in a prediction… should nact get over the line..the country will explode into direct action on matters environmental..and the like..)

        But back to my original question..what is yr problem with horizon..?

        • Tony Veitch 7.1.1.1
          22 May 2023 at 9:32 pm

          And national are a political party in decline.

          Absolutely! And the poll shows the right-wingers are turning to Act and NZ First (both in despair, I suspect!)

        • Belladonna 7.1.1.2
          23 May 2023 at 9:03 pm

          I don't have a problem with Horizon – however, looking at the combined results of polls over the last 5 months – they have National weighted way lower than any of the rest. Every other poll since the last one they did in January (where they had National at 27%) – has had National between 32-35%. We then go back to their previous poll in October (National 26%) – but every other poll between October and January had National between 32-40%

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

          Now that may be accurate – they may have a hotline to the 'truth' (who knows until we get to October) – but when there is an outlier result like that, I'm more inclined to view it with several grains of salt.

          The only explanation in their methodology I can see is that they only poll people who are 100% likely to vote. So are likely to get higher representation from those who are party loyalists who have already made up their minds. The relatively high ACT total (in comparison to other polls) would support this interpretation.

          FWIW – I think that the right and left are too close to call ATM – as they have been for the last year or so.

      • Tony Veitch 7.1.2
        22 May 2023 at 9:30 pm

        As accurate as any other poll at this stage of the game!

  8. SPC 8
    22 May 2023 at 5:24 pm

    The average home in the UK is now – 300,000 pounds.

    Our's now $900,000 – at 50p, 450,000 pounds.

    Our homes were value c$700,000 at the end of 2019, 350,000 pounds.