Open mike 22/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 22nd, 2019 - 104 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

104 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2019 ”

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  1. The Chairman 1
    22 September 2019 at 7:15 am

    Ouch!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115898326/the-labour-party-is-allergic-to-women

    Warning!

    Defenders of the Labour Party on this matter won't want to read this. It will do your head in. And don’t come gunning after me for highlighting it.

    Nevertheless, this is how a number of New Zelanders see this issue being played out.

    The mishandling is continuing. Got to wonder who is advising them? And if it ends up costing Labour the election, they only have themselves to blame.

    [baiting the community this time. Two day ban last time, four days this time. People who want to have considered debate on this topic are more than welcome to start or continue a discussion. Those that want to use it to bash Labour, concern troll, or shit stir can expect to get my attention – weka]

    • Rapunzel 1.1
      22 September 2019 at 7:30 am

      I read it online I had already cancelled Stuff, then I "tweeted" this "So glad I cancelled Stuff Sun paper at least I avoided paying for that. Winston Peter's & Tracey Martin's unsolicited opinions on this carry much more balance than Vance's. The twisting of the context of Shane Jones' words the other day shows just how conflated the facts now are."

      Who are these "Nevertheless, this is how a number of New Zelanders see this issue being played out." A number of others are waiting on straight facts not Vances interpretation of them. I can see this not playing out well for the National Party, once this is reviewed the media will be very tempted to turn their thoughts back to the unresolved internal matters. I had forgotten until yesterday the murky offer to Lee Ross to return in time with possible promotion.

      • The Chairman 1.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 8:05 am

        One assumes Winston and co knows how damaging this can potentially be for Labour.

        Hence, it's logical to assume it's in their own (NZF's) self interest to lessen the damage. As I've already explained to you, Winston requires Labour and National to be in a position where they both require his Party's support. Allowing him to play them both off against each other so as he and his Party can secure a better deal.

        And again, as I've already explained to you, I've not spoken (out in the real world) to anyone who trust Labour over this. And of course, Labour require voters to trust in Jacinda as without it (voter trust) they are unlikely to do well come next election.

        Moreover, Labour party defenders of this matter seem to be totally unaware of how their defence is only making things worse for the party.

        This is an issue the party needs to own and correct. Constant denial is only making it (the wider public perception) worse. So is being secretive as it looks as they are covering up.

        Moreover, if we are to take Jacinda on her word of only recently finding out, hence for the party to take action on this. Then of course those that knew but failed to tell her where preventing action from being taken. Hence, protecting and enabling the culture to continue.

        • peterh 1.1.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 10:45 am

          Anyone with half a brain would sit back wait , see how this plays out, then make a comment, and this goes for you and the media

          • Treetop 1.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2019 at 1:50 pm

            There is an exception to sitting back. It is never ok to sit back when someone may be having harm caused to them.

            I have just looked back to May 22 2019 a NZ Herald link on the approach which was taken to the sexual allegations in Parliament.

            At the least Mallard needed to speak to Bush to get some direction.

            Did Mallard speak to the Minister of Police or the Commissioner of Police?

            Were there any discussions between the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police?

            Is the Commissioner of Police currently investigating any matters raised by the Francis report?

            • lprent 1.1.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2019 at 5:31 pm

              Why would you expect the police commissioner to get involved at that level of detail?

              The commissioner of the police has a particular role inside the police, and it really isn't about running around working on individual cases. It is mainly administrative.

              The chief executive of Police is known as the Commissioner and is appointed by the Governor General. Mike Bush (MNZM) is the current Commissioner of New Zealand Police. The Commissioner of Police is accountable to the Minister of Police for the administration of police services, but acts independently in carrying out law enforcement decisions.

              Nationally we have 12 districts, which are administered from Police National Headquarters in Wellington, and a number of national service centres that provide administrative and specialised support, such as forensic services.

              At best this would be a district level issue for investigation and would come after a complaint is made to the police.

              To take just one other out of the jumble of topics you raised, the Francis review was an internal review undertaken by parliamentary services.

              In other words it was done by an employer looking at how to better serve all of their employees and the institution. There are 85 recommendations in the review report. I just read them – perhaps you should indicate which one of those said that the police should be involved in rejigging parliamentary services HR system?

              But even if criminal activities like sexual assault were identified by the Francis review, there would have been little that could have been done anyway at a criminal level – which is what you appear to be asking for.

              In my view, the problem with our current system for dealing with sexual assaults is that it depends far too strongly on having a complainant, and the complainant being the victim or someone responsible for them like a parent or guardian. This makes it difficult through to impossible to deal with even something as awful as serial rapists without a complainant.

              The process of going to the police is never going to be easy, and never more so in the wake of the revelations of the Louise Nicholls about Rotorua police culture or in the wake of the police treatment on complainants in the roastbusters in West Auckland. That makes it really difficult to think that going to the police about a sexual assault is going to do anything.

              That is the basic problem that needs to be looked at. Personally I think that sexual assaults should be able to be reported to the police by anyone and the police should be required to take a case even if they don't have the complainant, but there is sufficient evidence to lay a charge.

              I'd also like that decision about laying a charge to be taken away from the police or at least oversighted from outside the police because the idea isn't to just win cases – it is to make sure that offenders are aware of the consequences.

              Of course amongst the public having John Tamihere and Willy Jackson waving their dicks on radio didn't help either. They sounded like they were only sorry they weren't out there raping with the boys. I'd have liked to laid complaint of offensive behaviour on that as well. Why bother going to a useless patsy rubber stamp like the BSA.

              But FFS: please try to actually offer realistic ideas. Handwringing is so useless.

              • Treetop …
                22 September 2019 at 6:31 pm

                I know what the role of Bush is, he is in charge of enforcing the law. Perhaps he needed to make a statement when the Francis report was released so that people could have confidence in the police when reporting harassment, intimidation or a sexual crime.

                Without a complaint a conviction cannot occur.

                The police dragged their heels over Bazeley's recommendations. The same cannot be done about the Francis recommendations within Parliament.

                Do Parliamentary Services actually know what to do and what to recommend a complainant does?

                Bush could give some direction on this.

                • lprent …
                  23 September 2019 at 4:52 am

                  Do Parliamentary Services actually know what to do and what to recommend a complainant does?

                  Bush could give some direction on this.

                  So could anyone.

                  https://www.employment.govt.nz/resolving-problems/types-of-problems/bullying-harassment-and-discrimination/general-process/

                  That refers mostly to bullying, harassment, and discrimination to be dealt with by the organisational HR.

                  You can also go direct to the Human Rights Commission, especially if it is systemic within the organisation.

                  There are other legal options

                  Sometimes behaviour which is bullying or harassment, may also be civil harassment covered by the Harassment Act 1997 and the complainant could apply for a restraining order.

                  If behaviour includes violence, is criminal harassment (where the person intends, and knows it is likely, for the harassment to cause the other person to reasonably fear for their own or their family’s safety) or is another criminal offence, it should be reported to the Police.

                  The police are pretty strictly there for crimes. Which they pretty much have sole jurisdiction over.

                  https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/victims/victims-rape-or-sexual-assault

                  While anyone can make a report, generally the police will only act on an actual complaint. There are exceptions. But they are mostly to do with minors, dependents, and people unable to make complaints.

                  Now I personally wouldn't be adverse to some changes in the laws around this. However, that is a matter for parliament to introduce and actually pass. With our system, arbitrarily trying to make the rules up according to some individuals idea of what is a good idea just leads you into criminal or civil legal hot water.

                  The police above all other groups are aware of this – they work at the intersection between parliament's mandate to them, the courts who judge if they have made a case, and the population going off and exploring the limits to the laws. It tends to make them somewhat cautious about exploring new territory outside of their mandates – not helped by being chronically understaffed.

                  What does piss me off is fools who seem to not know what the current situation is and then somehow want to believe in weird magic rather than considered legislation that tries to see the bounds of natural justice and the limits of the law in seeking it.

                  Personally I tend to view such fools as just being the lynch mob and being just as big a nuisance as the perpetrators of crimes.

                  • Treetop …
                    23 September 2019 at 9:25 am

                    Protected Disclosures Act 2000

                    The Act requires public sector organisations to operate internal procedures for receiving and dealing with reports of serious wrong doing.

                    So much is always asked from the complainant when a sexual assault has occured.

                    What to do and where to go should not be such a hard decision to make.

      • greywarshark 1.1.2
        22 September 2019 at 8:09 am

        Advice – Avoid the National Party. The word is out that they have a very bad strain of measles, the sort that goes on and affects the brain. Keep clear and don't pay attention to their ravings.

    • Psycho Milt 1.2
      22 September 2019 at 8:30 am

      Thank you for your concern.

    • Psycho Milt 1.3
      22 September 2019 at 8:34 am

      Nevertheless, this is how a number of New Zelanders see this issue being played out.

      Yep, currently around 38 – 43% of them, depending on whose polling is correct. And you, of course – drawing a discreet "a number of New Zealanders" veil over your personal opinion is very Pete Georgian of you, and just as transparent.

    • Treetop 1.4
      22 September 2019 at 9:28 am

      Winston has some history of his own, Owen Glenn. Probably on Bennett's agenda next week. Bennett probably can't wait until the PM returns.

      Seriously, there needs to be a strategy to protect a complainant from being used as a porn by any MP. Parliamentary privilege has been abused by Bennett. To think a mature woman would put a 19 year old into the position of not knowing how the situation would play out and the outcome is irresponsible.

      • The Chairman 1.4.1
        22 September 2019 at 9:55 am

        To think a mature woman would put a 19 year old into the position of not knowing how the situation would play out and the outcome is irresponsible.

        Nevertheless, Bennett pushing the issue got Labour to act on it.

        And if Labour handled this better from the get go, Bennett wouldn't have this stick to bash them with.

        Whichever way you look at it, it all comes back on Labour.

        • Incognito 1.4.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 10:13 am

          Whichever way you look at it, it all comes back on Labour.

          Your lame labour lashing is legendary.

          You were in it early this morning to steal ‘souls’ away for your misguided agenda to ‘save’ the Left. I wonder who pays the Piper.

          Nevertheless, Bennett pushing the issue got Labour to act on it.

          Your admiration for Paula Bennett, the Scarlet Pimpernel of National, is quaint and fits well with your MO on this site.

          I know you cannot reply to this comment of mine but I wanted it out there to let you and others know what I think. As such, it does not need a reply.

          • greywarshark 1.4.1.1.1
            23 September 2019 at 10:45 am

            incognito

            Your word wisdom is wonderful. It’s good to draw attention to TC and his/her approach to the left with, what is it called, compassionate trolling? Which is an underhand way of distracting attention from latent hostility, which sooner or later leads to sinking teeth into (left) ankles when everyone thought it was such a nice wee doggie.

        • Treetop 1.4.1.2
          22 September 2019 at 10:39 am

          I cannot ask you a question as you are unable to respond for 4 days.

          Bennett had other options available to her, discussions with the speaker.

          Even though the identity of the 19 year old is not publicly known, she can easily be identified by some people, this alone is problematic for her to be able to process being caught up in a situation which she needs a lot of support with and legal advice.

          It is about the wellbeing of the complainant and not putting any further pressure on her.

          • Dukeofurl 1.4.1.2.1
            22 September 2019 at 1:08 pm

            So going to the Spinoff, who would turn it into headlines for over a week was 'a comfort to her'?

            Was there not a woman MP , even in the Labour party, she could confide in

            • Treetop 1.4.1.2.1.1
              22 September 2019 at 2:25 pm

              There is a police process in making a complaint. The Spinoff could have handled the situation much better and made it about the process and how overlooked the Francis report has been.

              With any crime, once out of the hands of the police, then it is the job of the court.

              The complainant is the person who the verdict has a direct impact on.

              • lprent …
                22 September 2019 at 5:38 pm

                Another issue about the Francis review was that it was about parliamentary staff (including the members). I don't think that you're likely to find a single word in it about parliamentary staff interactions with volunteers or even parliamentary staff interactions with members of the public

                Perhaps you should just do something useful and read it. In particular look at Appendix B at the terms of reference. The scope of the people being covered is in point 3 of appendix B

                Waving the Francis review around like a rugby talisman really just indicates that you need to learn more before speaking in public.

                • Treetop …
                  22 September 2019 at 6:40 pm

                  I can see another report with recommendations on parliamentary staff and volunteers.

                  • lprent …
                    23 September 2019 at 4:23 am

                    Where is it? Links are far more useful than unsubstantiated assertions. Apart from the informational and debate aspects, it also allows a verification that you have actually found something relevant rather than everyone having to spin bullshit into thin air.

                    The comment editor has a link function in the bar – looks like a chain link.

                    • Treetop …
                      23 September 2019 at 8:58 am

                      There is no report it was an expression. There needs to be a separate report done for parliamentary staff and volunteers.

                      The terms of reference in the Francis report were not wide enough. It needed to be mandatory for every MP and going back a decade. The same for Parliamentary Services staff.

                    • lprent …
                      23 September 2019 at 9:14 am

                      Entirely likely.

                      However you should really actually read the recommendations of the Francis review for instruction. You will find a very large number of the 85 recommendations come down to writing down expectations so that people have to sign to show that they have seen them. This is a normal part of everyday life in business and work.

                      Even then, there are quite a lot of the sections of which I sign rights away on. One of those is to be able to work for whatever volunteer organisations I chose to – like this one. Or women’s refuge or helping people with their websites or training people or helping kids get holiday jobs or even (gasp) the Labour Party along with numerous others

                      The problem here is that by the sound of it, most if not of the incidents occurred when all, complainants and complained against were working as volunteers rather than as employees of the parliamentary services. Certainly there has never actually be anything specific to indicate that the incidents occurred in the workplace or as part of the work that the complained was doing for his employer.

                      It is not the usual thing that you find volunteers who don't get paid for their effort signing contracts about their behaviour. By several parts of contract law, that would make a for a void contract because of the lack of consideration. There are also a number of issues with it in labour law as well – mostly to do with condition similar to slavery or serfdom.

                      If you want to destroy all volunteer work, then please don't hesitate to declare yourself. Just at present you're sounding like a Taxpayers 'union' advocate.

                      Perhaps you could start addressing the issues and the problems rather than just trying to fire up the old magic please… You are pretty awful at mixing up the impossible to do without any reference to the known facts. It makes your contribution rather moot.

                    • Treetop []
                      23 September 2019 at 9:29 am

                      I intend to read the Francis report.

                      You raised some good points and have given a blunt opinion on some matters I raised.

                    • lprent …
                      23 September 2019 at 1:11 pm

                      …have given a blunt opinion on some matters I raised.

                      I'm known for it. You have managed to have less blunt (ie hammerfall) opinions than it seems that I am wont to do these days .

                      I had to go back and rapidly reread the Francis review – which looks like every other HR review I have ever read. But was worth a second run through. BTW: never read a HR review lying bed on a tablet unless you want to go to sleep is all that I can say. I lost two hours due to the involuntary nap.

            • Naki man 1.4.1.2.1.2
              23 September 2019 at 12:22 am

              It's pretty obvious that Sara trusts Bennett more than anyone in the Labour party. If you read the time line it's not hard to see why.There is an excellent article that the chairman links to at the top. Vance absolutely nails it.

              • lprent …
                23 September 2019 at 5:24 am

                There is an excellent article that the chairman links to at the top. Vance absolutely nails it.

                No it doesn’t. What it demonstrates is that Andrea Vance is determined to act as judge, jury and executioner.

                It seems to me that the Andrea Vance would prefer to ignore natural justice (which is exactly what her saying that Simon Mitchell shouldn’t have spoken up in his on defense is), and that there has been direct contradiction of her and Paula Bennetts assertion that anything more than allegations of bullying and harassment were put in front of them.

                Clearly Vance seems to thinks that there was – presumably based on what the complainants have said or presented to her (at least I hope so). The problem is that there is contradictory evidence being offered that she appears to be not willing to look at. She doesn’t even refer to it in her rant except to denigrate it without saying why.

                Naki: it is exactly the same kind of behaviour that I expect to see from you on these pages – but you are a simple minded troll. She is a senior reporter and one who I’d usually trust a little. Assertions without saying why she believes one account over another. A complete lack of supporting evidence apart from unseen material. And a simple minded denigration of those contradicting her without offering any basic argument. Ir just diminishes my respect fro her writing without offering anything new to chew on,

                Perhaps she should take her own advice. Perhaps she should review why she is willing to believe what appears to be one side but not the other and why she isn’t making it obvious why she thinks that.

                Sure I can understand that she doesn’t like certain politicians (at least one of those, like Shane Jones, have long been in my shit list). However that is about the only thing that Vance’s rant did offer some clarity on.

                The complainants have several other avenues for them to proceed through. If they have chosen their only route to be Paula Bennett, then that is a decision they will have to live with. Paula Bennett isn’t renowned for her ability to follow through past her own advantage.

                If they actually want to get something resolved, then they should look at the review of the original allegations and the other option being provided to look at the differences between their accounts of what went on with the NZ Council and what the council members are saying.

                Plus based on the allegations she has been making ‘Sarah’ should at the very least report a possible crime to the police and maybe lay a complaint. She is alleging some kind of sexual predator around. Better the police know about it with direct information on them rather than having it filtered through a parliamentary media more known for their delight in waving bloody political scalps around than accuracy.

      • greywarshark 1.4.2
        22 September 2019 at 9:56 am

        porn or pawn? I am not clear on this.

      • Treetop 1.4.3
        22 September 2019 at 10:22 am

        Correction to 1.4 correct word is pawn not porn.

    • Anne 1.5
      22 September 2019 at 10:46 am

      TC @ 1

      What a load of laughable tosh from Andrea Vance who would appear to be a little sick in the head or she's a closet Nat. I suspect a bit of both.

      I have been in and out of the Labour Party since 1972 and at no time did I experience or witness any antagonism towards women. The truth is the opposite. What is more, it has been a darn sight safer than National over the years!

      We have two alleged cases of harassment and sexual assault (one of them by someone who was not a party member) and that constitutes:

      "rot in the Labour Party and the Party being allergic to women?"

      Bear in mind this is the same woman who started out as a hack for that piece of now defunct British trash called "The News of the World". We had our own version once called "The Truth" which printed anything but the truth.

  2. Ad 2
    22 September 2019 at 7:43 am

    Dunedin rocked last night.

    Fleetwood Mac with Mr Finn gave us I Dont Know Why Sometimes I Get Frightened and a welter of 1980s MOR romance-rock for a big and generous show at the stadium.

    And in town Michael Houston, our best ever pianist pianist, rocked the Town Hall with the local synphonia.

    Very big weekend for this beautiful city.

    • greywarshark 2.1
      22 September 2019 at 8:03 am

      May the spirit of the music live on in Dunedin. The drummer is fantastic in Fleetwood Mac – Fleetwood himself?

      And Mr Houston – I think these are his last concerts. A man who managed to relearn how to use his hands and continue with his career after he was affected by carpal syndrome I think. Wonderful dedication.

      • Ad 2.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 10:29 am

        Mr Fleetwood drove the show from start to finish via rhythm section. Total stage leader.

        Houston, well, full mastery of Mozart, and the Southern Synphonia in fine form. And excellent acoustics in the Town Hall compared to the stadium.

        • greywarshark 2.1.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 10:38 am

          Good for Dunedin – music of all sort abounds there. Would Dunedin like to be known as the NZ City of Music? As a change from being the hosts of uni students in slum dwellings which is an image I have.

          Also Rapunzel asked about a Mark Knopfler mention – did you hear what it was, she would like to know?

    • Rapunzel 2.2
      22 September 2019 at 8:17 am

      If you have a moment I was a bit intrigued by a reference to Mark Knopfler in regards the show – love to hear what that was in regards to.

  3. greywarshark 3
    22 September 2019 at 8:41 am

    Film about 5g doing the rounds of the rohe I think. We have seen it in Nelson. About it – film Generation Zapped. https://www.flicks.co.nz/movie/generation-zapped/

    Coming 9/10 to Auckland – Titirangi. https://ourauckland.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/articles/events/2019/10/generation-zapped-film-screening/

    And stuff on what it is all about. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/109733512/this-year-is-all-about-5g-heres-what-you-need-to-know

    Mass surveillance at the back of it all will be the outcome. Every new development, invention gets weaponised. https://www.rfsafe.com/5g-network-uses-nearly-same-frequency-as-weaponized-crowd-control-systems/

    Queenstown will be the first. How nice for them having everything foisted on them because their place is a big money magnet for profit. https://www.odt.co.nz/business/queenstown-among-first-get-5g

    (Do these guys look grey and bloodless to you?)

    • Graeme 3.1
      22 September 2019 at 9:42 am

      Queenstown will be the first. How nice for them having everything foisted on them because their place is a big money magnet for profit.

      Big money magnet for exposure is more like it. All the big brands are here for the exposure, not the profits they might generate in town. Losses are rationalised by the perceived brand exposure they get by being in and associated with Queenstown. And some of those annual losses are substantial.

      Will be interesting how 5G goes here. 4G is patchy and variable between providers. At our gallery in CBD Spark is fine, Voda customers have to go outside to take a call. Similar story out in the basin where there's large where one or both providers are 2G or nothing because of terrain, 50m away it'll be full 4G.

      • greywarshark 3.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 9:52 am

        Interesting bit about the exposure. Big outfits will buy in to a site to prevent a competitor gaining a position in the great competitive shuffle and shoulder pushing before they can settle down to a nice cartel. It's really like being on the ground under the hooves of stampeding cattle forthe ordinary person, the micro business of the local.

        And you watch Graeme with a bemused expression as there is nothing you can do but try and foot it finely amongst the herd. I hope you are doing good business coming into Christmas.

        • Graeme 3.1.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 11:06 am

          I know of one major NZ retail brand that has downsized their Queenstown operation dramatically after huge losses and won't be bringing any other of their stable of brands to Queenstown, they'd be in most NZ malls or main streets and often anchor tenant. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the big box retailers that have sprouted this cycle don't pack it in as well, some of the stories doing the rounds regarding their performance can't be sustainable, even for big corporate retailers. These are like on a good day they might take enough to cover the wages, just staff / low level manager pub chatter but probably got some truth to it.

          We're fortunate we're in a niche that the corporates can't handle, too small and specialised, so keep it small and personal with overheads to match. Have watched lots of cash bonfires in this town. That's the main driver of the economy (cash burn)

          • greywarshark 3.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2019 at 11:29 am

            I think cynically that is the way of the neolibs. Without any sanctions on them, till we force them, they can push some sort of business and if it goes belly up the ordinary people have lost their all, while they can go on and invent some more money to finance another lot of wealth creation? and also they can make money out of dealing with any problems.

            See-saw, they win at the top and can hedge for a crash, and then they win at the bottom when they produce some panacea, open a private hospital for the survivors etc. And that is why Donald Trump is a success and a good businessman; he understands that having the money and power is what it's all about. Laws and limits are just mosquito bites to the wealthy. Climate change controls go hand in hand with Money creation controls. And we don't let them take over our cash systems, and should be anxious how Kiwibank thinks it is getting modern by banning cheques. B.stards.

            It sounds justifiable but looked at closely it stinks like a dead kangaroo. https://cecaust.com.au/media-releases/morrison-banning-cash-so-australians-cant-escape-bail-negative-interest-rates

            And we tend to go skipping after the Aussies. We don't have kangaroos but we do have wallabies. Hey that rhymes, perhaps someone would like to make a rap about it.

  4. greywarshark 4
    22 September 2019 at 9:31 am

    Radionz has sport and rugby dominating its page except for a celebration of a ‘great’ losing event of WW2 the Battle of Arnhem 'Operation Market Garden'. Celebrating famous cock-ups with lots of blood and gore – is that all that deadheads can find to do?

    ' The British 1st Airborne Division lost nearly ¾ of its strength and did not see combat again. '

    There were about 8,000 of the Allies dead or captured or missing. Indefinite about the Germans – one figure is 3,300. 453 I think of Dutch dead and a large number turfed out of their homes which were looted and the contents sent to bombed out Germans.

    … the bridge that the 1st Airborne had fought so hard for was eventually destroyed by the Allies to deny German forces its use. On 7 October, it was bombed and destroyed by Martin B-26 Marauders of 344th Bomb Group, USAAF…

    This is the British for you – might explain the enthusiasm for Brexit. It's not the winning that counts, it's the bravehearted community charging forward and trying that is so great' sort of thing. Being wrongheaded elevated to an art!

    Although a disaster for the British 1st Airborne Division, their fight north of the Rhine is considered an example of courage and endurance and one of the greatest feats of arms in the Second World War. Despite being the last great failure of the British Army, Arnhem has become a byword for the fighting spirit of the British people and has set a standard for the Parachute Regiment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arnhem#British_plan

    • Psycho Milt 4.1
      22 September 2019 at 10:33 am

      Nothing warms the English heart quite like a glorious defeat. Of course, this kind of heroic but doomed mission in which you lose most of your combat personnel was just about routine for German elite divisions in the last years of the war, but no-one makes a fuss about that – sucks to be the losers, I guess.

      • greywarshark 4.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 10:41 am

        Well they should take a leaf out of the history book and celebrate their own glorious losses? It can be a new tourism venture. Think how the tourist dollar could flow into the Middle East when the oil runs out. They will travel by camel of course, it will be very special and high priced.

    • Dukeofurl 4.2
      22 September 2019 at 11:20 am

      The Arnhem Road bridge was destroyed by Dutch Engineers upon the German invasion, then rebuilt by the Germans and completed in 1944.

      What has this , one of many failed UK military operations, have to do with Brexit?

      Was there a referendum too ?

      • greywarshark 4.2.1
        22 September 2019 at 12:43 pm

        Don't worry your pretty head about it, it brings two ideas, like two colours together, and they turn our brown, so unexpected who'd have thunk it.

        Here is an explanation from wikipedia that will enlighten you on colours and you will have learned something today.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown

  5. greywarshark 5
    22 September 2019 at 9:47 am

    Oh dear, there are hurdles to jump for real estate agents that will lessen their lightness of being as they float in their hot-air balloons within the housing bubble.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/399296/anti-money-laundering-laws-costing-real-estate-industry-multi-millions

    A survey of 1861 real estate professionals around the country found 59 percent cited changing regulation as their top concern, whereas two years ago it was sixth on the list.

    The Real Estate Institute said implementing new anti-money laundering laws has cost the industry tens of millions of dollars.

    "The real estate industry has had to deal with more legislative changes in the last two years than we've dealt with in the five years prior," REINZ chief executive Bindi Norwell said.

    They would complain – they are in an elite business level with top money. Their CE seems to be from UK and worked in Australia as well in top jobs. All has been tops for them, why should it change? They have had more change in the last two years (Labour) than they had in the prior five (National). QED

    • David Mac 5.1
      22 September 2019 at 12:53 pm

      "The Real Estate Institute said implementing new anti-money laundering laws has cost the industry tens of millions of dollars."

      Another way of reading this comment would be "Real Estate Sellers are finding things more difficult now they aren't able to sell as much property to dubious offshore buyers and meth traders."

      Is the industry unable to see that most of us are delighted with this pressure they complain of.

      • Nick 5.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 4:30 pm

        Went to a barfoot auction house in Auckland last week and mostly kiwi buyers /sellers and not that many, not like the old days, packed with Asian buyers.

  6. joe90 6
    22 September 2019 at 9:52 am

    You'd have to wonder why ScoMo would want his personal paedophile protector to hold his hand.

    https://twitter.com/benpershing/status/1175033473591119876

  7. greywarshark 7
    22 September 2019 at 10:30 am

    A number of links connecting in thought. First had a headline – Strangulation offences: Five a day charged since law changed.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018713972/getting-tough-how-new-zealand-could-stop-domestic-violence

    Then a slanted rather poisonous piece as PM Jacinda attempts to deal with bad behaviour from a male in the Party's employ against women within his ambit.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/398745/if-only-the-czar-knew-how-long-will-jacinda-ardern-get-benefit-of-the-doubt-over-sex-assault-claims
    Liam Hehir This article first appeared on Pundit.co.nz.
    * (Liam Hehir is a Palmerston North lawyer and conservative political columnist and blogger for Pundit who has formerly volunteered for the National Party.)

    And the last about snakes possibly finding NZ comfortable. And an image of a green snake looking unpleasantly menacing which makes me think of Hehir above.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/399142/counting-the-ways-climate-change-will-affect-us-and-how-we-will-affect-the-climate

  9. greywarshark 9
    22 September 2019 at 10:57 am

    Oh dear, we are going to have to think, if only we had Rutherford here now some might say. But we do have thinkers here still, they just haven't been given the space and equipment and the action after their discoveries and models have shown us the way. Rutherford didn't have a royal suite but managed with his great team, to do world shifting stuff. Now we can shift rubbish to a Better Useful End.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/environment/399221/indonesia-to-send-contaminated-recycling-back-to-nz

    And have we got it in our heads that we are supposed to be kindly, thoughtful people who aren't cruel to cows and other animals. Recently a ship with 8000 cattle was being refused docking overseas because of a legal wrangle over unpaid bills I suspect. Or perhaps they didn't have the certification as to disease or legalities of ownership. And the country was being begged to allow docking so they could obtain more food or the cattle would starve. Don't know what happened, but if good people don't watch out for other sentient beings, the machine minds will rule!

    Now we have problems in NZ. We don't want international ships arriving without certification that they are clean, for our own sakes. And we don't want them arriving without complying with our rules about live animal transport. Should we allow this level of transport anyway? We have had enough problem with imported disease through the M.bovis – don't we ever learn? Hah. Silly question, of course we do, usually after lacking any precautionary, or rigid measures to ensure effectiveness.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/398930/live-export-ship-arrives-in-napier-for-thousands-of-cows-without-certification

    The Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) says until it's satisfied the Yangtze Fortune meets animal welfare conditions, the export certificate won't be issued.
    The ship arrived at the Napier Port yesterday afternoon to collect 4700 breeding cows to set up dairy farms in China.

    No doubt one of the milk-rush companies has set this up, probably a National Party supporter. (I'm going out on a limb there. But it's 80:20 likely.)

  10. Incognito 10
    22 September 2019 at 11:30 am

    Simon Bridges showing his true colours, again. Businesses and property rights trump everything else; Māori don’t get a single mention, of course.

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/5/348381

    • McFlock 12.1
      22 September 2019 at 5:40 pm

      I wonder if Warren will offer the VP to Biden? Always the bridesmaid… 🙂

      yeah yeah one result way out and all that – just a funny thought

      • The Al1en 12.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 6:12 pm

        I think when Biden doesn't get the nomination he'll head off into the sunset to spend more time with his record player phonograph wax cylinder.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 7:40 pm

          Fair bet.

          A Warren/Sanders team would be interesting, but while I think he might go for it if he got the nom, she might be more inclined to go with a blandstander, especially from one of the the swing states. Strategy.

          • The Al1en 12.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2019 at 8:05 pm

            Can't see a Warren Saunders ticket happening, so yeah, probably a lesser candidate from a swing state or minority group, such as Beto, Harris or mayor Pete.

            But a long way to go yet, and Biden has to go first.

          • Wayne 12.1.1.1.2
            22 September 2019 at 8:13 pm

            There is absolutely no way she would go for Sanders. Much safer to go for a younger candidate, probably male, and probably from the midwest. So O'Rouke or Buttigieg.

          • McFlock 12.1.1.1.3
            22 September 2019 at 8:29 pm

            Yeah, she probably wouldn't, but it's not as crazy as it sounds.

            Firtly, I think they have much more sympathetic platforms than Warren and anyone else.

            Secondly, Sanders would play "bad cop" making Warren a "compromise builder".

            Thirdly, it might shut up the "bernie or bust" idiots, which would go a huge way to making the dems a unified force (rather than the candidate having to face the republicans while being sniped at from the back).

  13. greywarshark 13
    22 September 2019 at 12:45 pm

    Joe90 – are you putting up links with your comments? There is none showing. You are wonderfully enigmatic but you usually have some explanation to enlighten.

    • weka 13.1
      22 September 2019 at 1:07 pm

      They're there, some of us can't see them. I have to open a different browser to see the twitter embeds. I've been assuming this is to do with the adblocks and such I run on my main browser, but I haven't tested that. I'll tell Lynn.

      • Sacha 13.1.1
        22 September 2019 at 1:08 pm

        Pretty sure that's it.

      • weka 13.1.2
        22 September 2019 at 1:11 pm

        just restarted Firefox with extensions disabled and all the tweets are visible now. Will try turning them on one at a time to see which extension is doing that.

        • weka 13.1.2.1
          22 September 2019 at 1:17 pm

          Looks like it's the DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials addon. Which makes sense, so check for any extensions you have that are designed to limit tracking or provide extra privacy when browsing/searching.

      • lprent 13.1.3
        22 September 2019 at 5:47 pm

        I've been assuming this is to do with the adblocks and such I run on my main browser, but I haven't tested that.

        It will be. I'm using OEmbed with for things like facebook, twitter, and youtube embeds (and a number of others). It is really restricted, but to make them 'live' with links, linkable they have to live and active.

        Some adblockers will block them out. That is really up to user taste. I could just get the code to treat them as being empty comments without at least some text 🙁

    • Sacha 13.2
      22 September 2019 at 1:08 pm

      You can click directly on the embedded Twitter 'cards' that work like links do.

      • weka 13.2.1
        22 September 2019 at 1:19 pm

        good point. Grewarshark, what can you see in Joe90's tweets? Can you see the embedded tweet? Or only Joe's words?

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.1
          22 September 2019 at 2:08 pm

          Only Joe's words. I thought there must be some thing like you have said. I have my adblocker turned off i think. I need peaceful background to be able to concentrate on the news which is usually startling enough to keep me awake at night if I let it. So I will know what to do if I want to see tweets. Thanks for info.

          • weka 13.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2019 at 2:36 pm

            I also can't use a browser with lots of things flashing at me or moving images. With Firefox you can restart in safe mode, which turns off all extensions. Restart again, then go into the extensions list and turn them back on one at a time. This will tell you which one it is. It wasn't adblocker on mine, it was an extension blocking tracking.

            I also have a second browser with no extensions, so I can view webpages that aren't loading right.

            • lprent 13.2.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2019 at 5:48 pm

              Try turning it off for this site. Most ad blockers will allow you to exclude particular sites from their attentions.

              And we don't have ads…

              • weka …
                22 September 2019 at 5:54 pm

                It wasn't the adblocker, it was some DuckDuckGo extension (don't even know why I had it). See up thread. Am relieved I can see everything again, it will make writing posts easier too.

              • weka …
                22 September 2019 at 5:55 pm

                Just disabled for this page and can't see whatever used to be on the right hand side below the Feed. Is that gone now? I used to see links to things.

              • weka …
                22 September 2019 at 6:15 pm

                Ug, the problem I have now is that when I click on a link to a specific comment, my browser tries to load that but ends up off by half a page. I assume that's the tweets loading doing that.

                • Sacha …
                  22 September 2019 at 6:30 pm

                  Ah, mine has been doing that for ages as well. Must be a different calculation.

                  • greywarshark …
                    22 September 2019 at 8:41 pm

                    Mine does that jumping around. When I go away from where I have been looking, it's a devil of a job to find it again sometimes. Goes to the right place then dashes off. I am on Firefox/Linux. Thanks weka for advice above will have to try that tomorrow.

                    • Incognito …
                      23 September 2019 at 7:51 am

                      I think it is something to do with slow page loading. I get it too on other websites such as Stuff. The only thing that seems to work (for me) is to slow down and be more patient 😉

                • Andre …
                  22 September 2019 at 6:36 pm

                  Mine only does that if I'm in a different post, say I'm reading an Open Mike comment then click a lying: the preferred denier comment. If i'm already in today's Open Mike and click on another today's Open Mike comment it correctly goes straight there.

                  The tweets loading might be doing it, but it also used to behave like that before the latest editor in previous versions that didn't load the tweets.

                • joe90 …
                  22 September 2019 at 7:10 pm

                  Mine was doing the same before the site allowed embedded tweets.

    • joe90 13.3
      22 September 2019 at 1:18 pm

      Humanity's self inflicted disaster, greed, and polling trends pretty much speak for themselves. Anything I could say would be verbiage, I reckon.

  14. mary_a 14
    22 September 2019 at 12:50 pm

    Methinks next year's general election will have a very strong focus on Climate Change. Something for Greens and Labour to seriously work closely on together in the meantime, to keep National in Opposition.

  15. Eco maori 15
    23 September 2019 at 11:27 am

    Thanks to all the Australian academics how have come out in strong tau toko of the extinction Rebellion. Ka kaha to all the intelligent tangata who protest the pollies who are trying to lead US down the wrong PATH.

    'We declare our support for Extinction Rebellion': an open letter from Australia's academics

    Leading academics from around the country say it is their moral duty to rebel to ‘defend life itself

    We the undersigned represent diverse academic disciplines, and the views expressed here are those of the signatories and not their universities. While our academic perspectives and expertise may differ, we are united on one point: we can no longer tolerate the failure of the Australian government, or any other government, to take robust and urgent action to address the worsening ecological crisis.

    It is unconscionable that we, our children and grandchildren should have to bear the terrifying brunt of this unprecedented disaster. When a government wilfully abrogates its responsibility to protect its citizens from harm and secure the future for generations to come, it has failed in its most essential duty of stewardship. The ‘social contract’ has been broken, and it is therefore not only our right, but our moral duty, to rebel to defend life itself

    We also recognise the crucial role First Nations people in Australia and across the globe, have played for tens of thousands of years, and continue to play, in maintaining species, and caring for the land, water and air. We therefore declare our support for the urgent establishment of a treaty with First Nation Australians, to recognise Indigenous sovereignty and to support Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities to continue protecting what they have already cared for, for so long Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/sep/20/we-declare-our-support-for-extinction-rebellion-an-open-letter-from-australias-academics

  16. Eco maori 16
    23 September 2019 at 4:22 pm

    I…. Papatuanuku has already given us the tools for sequestration of CARBON trees mash wetlands habits . We don't have to spend billion trying to perfect a machine to do the job that a Forest already does for us. We just need to spend billions planting trees and restoration of other natural habitat. We could also us wood products to replace alot of(steel high carbon) commodity we have the tech to do this. After all its not ROCKET SCIENCE. We can plant trees in all the land that is erosion prone and still be able to farm the land to as Te Whenua holds more water when trees are planted in the correct places fence lines steep gullies. Let's move away from the mono styles of farming and work with Papatuanuku to restore our future to have a habitatable climate.

    Greta Thunberg: ‘We are ignoring natural climate solutions’

    Film by Swedish activist and Guardian journalist George Monbiot says nature must be used to repair broken climate.

    The protection and restoration of living ecosystems such as forests, mangroves and seagrass meadows can repair the planet’s broken climate but are being overlooked, Greta Thunberg and George Monbiot have warned in a new short film.

    Natural climate solutions could remove huge amounts of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as plants grow. But these methods receive only 2% of the fundingspent on cutting emissions, say the climate activists

    In the film, Monbiot says: “There is a magic machine that sucks carbon out of the air, costs very little, and builds itself. It’s called a tree.” A recent scientific analysis concluded that growing billions of trees across the world is the single biggest and cheapest way to tackle the climate crisis, though coal, oil and gas burning must also end.

    “We are living in the beginning of a mass extinction and our climate is breaking down,” says Thunberg in the film. “But we can still fix this – you can still fix this.”

    “It’s simple,” she says. “We need to protect, restore, and fund.” That means protecting tropical forests that are being cut down at the rate of 30 football pitches a minute, she said, restoring the large areas of the planet that have been damaged and stopping the funding of things that destroy nature and instead paying for activities that help it.

    The film’s producer, Tom Mustill of Gripping Films, said: “We tried to make the film have the tiniest environmental impact possible. We took trains to Sweden to interview Greta, charged our hybrid car at George’s house, used green energy to power the edit and recycled archive footage rather than shooting new.”

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/19/greta-thunberg-we-are-ignoring-natural-climate-solutions

  17. Eco maori 17
    23 September 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    That was someone policy important heaps of people don't build housing warla a housing short banks and realestate rubbing there hands together.

    Jenna Google is investing 2 billion dollars into new Renewable energy to power there operations with Renewable energy all over the Papatuanuku.

    I can remember seeing Thomas Cook was a big thing in Aotearoa a few years ago.

    The Pike River whanau are finally getting what they want. Hopefully they will get JUSTICE.

    Ka kite Ano

  18. Eco maori 18
    23 September 2019 at 6:53 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Te tangata whenua o Aotearoa need business advice from genuine Maori a lot of Te pakiha business men can't help them selves they just see innocent tangata whenua as sheep to be fleeced that's CAPTILSIM.

    Yes all Our Marae need to be insured we have heaps of Marae in Te Tairawhiti.

    We must nurture Te tamariki mental health as we only get one chance with some of our Rangatahi. Some Tangata have to stop being self-centered and put Te mokopuna welbing in the centre of our way of planning for the future.

    Ruahine to much on your win in the Tarakihi Rugby league championship. I have been thinking about coming for a tiki tour there to check out a renewable energy outfit there. Ma Te Wa.

    Te Waiata is good for the wairua Te Haka is awesome Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa Culture is Papatuanuku famous Ka pai kia kaha Whanau.

    Ka kite Ano

  19. Eco maori 19
    24 September 2019 at 8:30 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    The reason someone can't get a good Wahine is because they are to selfish self-centred muppet.

    Ka kite Ano

  20. Eco maori 20
    24 September 2019 at 10:55 am

    Eco Maori thinks that this is the best way to get poor countries to preserve their natural habitatable forests. Rewarding them to keep the trees in the Papatuanuku maybe offer Brazil money to keep the Amazon safe Maybe Jeff could pony up some putea to make this a reality. Our Papatuanuku is A living being we only get one chance if we make a big MESS our future will be Stuffed.

    Gabon becomes the first African country to receive funding for preserving its rainforests

    About 80 per cent of Gabon is covered by forests, sheltering a rich variety of wildlife.

    (CNN) — In an effort to fight climate change, the United Nations announced Sunday that Gabon will become the first African country paid with international funds to preserve its rainforest.

    Through the Central African Forest Initiative (CAFI), Norway will pay $150 million to Gabon to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and battle deforestation. The announcement was made at the Climate Action Summit in New York, where world leaders gathered to discuss how to reach net-zero greenhouse gas emissions.

    CAFI is a collaborative partnership between the UN Development Program (UNDP), six Central African countries, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), the World Bank and a coalition of donors including the United Kingdom, Norway and South Korea

    Covered in forests

    Up to 80% of Gabon is covered with forests, according to a report in Mongabay, a website of environmental news.

    In the statement, Ola Elvestuen, Norway's minister of climate and environment, said he hopes the partnership will help Gabon maintain 98% of the forests.

    "I am very pleased with this results-based partnership through CAFI, which includes a historic carbon floor price to further encourage Gabon to continue to preserve its rainforest. This is a major breakthrough for REDD+ in Africa," Elvestuen said.

    For many years, Gabon has been a leader in Africa in preserving its rainforests Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/09/23/africa/gabon-paid-to-fight-deforestation-intl/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2Fafrica%3Fno-st%3D9999999999