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Open Mike 22/02/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 22nd, 2017 - 63 comments
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63 comments on “Open Mike 22/02/2017 ”

  1. dv 1

    Starter for 10
    Who said this-

    denounced recent threats against Jewish community centers as “horrible” and “painful” and said more must be done “to root out hate and prejudice and evil.”

    • Bearded Git 1.1

      Its from Planet Trump.

    • joe90 1.2

      Trump, a day late and after he decided mollifying his alt-right extremist supporters wasn’t a good look, politically.

      • marty mars 1.2.1

        And trump has caused riots in Sweden – anti C ?

        • joe90 1.2.1.1

          I’m not quite with you there, Marty, but to clarify – Trump shows a real reluctance to even mention minority concerns.

          The White House celebrated Holocaust remembrance day without mentioning the Jewish victims, (the alt-right trope is other people died too so the Jewish experience isn’t particularly notable) and Trump neglected to even mention the Muslim victims of the recent Canadian Mosque attack, (damned Muslims are the real enemy) and he left it to his daughter to comment on the bomb threats against multiple Jewish community centres across the US.

          His silence emboldened those who took him at his word when he campaigned on the evils of political correctness and validates the notion, again, that it’s acceptable to openly despise people who aren’t like you.

          • Brutus Iscariot 1.2.1.1.1

            FYI here’s the text of his statement:

            “It is with a heavy heart and somber mind that we remember and honor the victims, survivors, heroes of the Holocaust. It is impossible to fully fathom the depravity and horror inflicted on innocent people by Nazi terror.

            Yet, we know that in the darkest hours of humanity, light shines the brightest.‎ As we remember those who died, we are deeply grateful to those who risked their lives to save the innocent.

            In the name of the perished, I pledge to do everything in my power throughout my Presidency, and my life, to ensure that the forces of evil never again defeat the powers of good. Together, we will make love and tolerance prevalent throughout the world.”

            Criticism of Trump misses the mark on this occasion – as far as i can see, this acknowledges the suffering of EVERYONE which includes the homosexuals, gypsies, disabled and yes, Jews that were killed.

            Basically the Jewish/Zionist lobby depends so heavily on holocaust guilt to promote their cause that they get upset when insufficient obeisance is paid to their historical suffering. Even though from an objectively humanist point of view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Trump’s statement.

            • JanM 1.2.1.1.1.1

              I agree with you here – there were a number of groups who were the focus of the Holocaust and we are often in danger of forgetting that.
              It is actually an excellent speech, no matter who said (or wrote) it

            • joe90 1.2.1.1.1.2

              So the two thirds of European Jewry who were systematically exterminated didn’t rate a mention by the least anti-Semitic person that you’ve seen in your entire life because other people died, too.

              Righto…..

              • Brutus Iscariot

                No-one else got a specific mention either. He made a broad, overarching statement about the horrors of the Nazi regime.

                You WOULD have a point if he had mentioned all the other groups by name, and left Jews out.

          • marty mars 1.2.1.1.2

            Yep agree with you.

            I was just mentioning that trump says riots in Sweden and the next thing we have riots in sweden. Not really related to your point sorry.

            • joe90 1.2.1.1.2.1

              says riots in Sweden and the next thing we have riots in sweden

              Ah yes, I see.

              Rioting in Rinkeby does appear to be a local pastime, 2010, 2013 and 2017, but who’s to rule out some mighty fine ratfucking…..

      • Morrissey 1.2.2

        Trump’s “alt-right” (i.e., extreme right) supporters support Israel, but they are rabidly anti-Semitic, in the same way they are anti-Arab, anti-Iranian, anti-Mexican and anti-African-American.

        • Sabine 1.2.2.1

          its ok, he will make america great again. for all those that are not arab, not iranian, not mexican, not african american, not women – or at least women who are only a 1 – 9 on the trump scale of beauty, not christian – again only evangelics are good christians, not rich, not connected, not golf players. But hey, don’t call them out on that, that would not be polite.

          • Morrissey 1.2.2.1.1

            You live in the real world, Sabine, and you actually think about things. Trump’s supporters, on the other hand, do not….

            http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trump-supporters-see-a-successful-president-and-are-frustrated-with-critics-who-dont-20170220-guhd8y.html

            • Sabine 1.2.2.1.1.1

              i don’t have an issue with his cult followers, that shit sandwich they are so eager to serve to those that they consider expendable will eventually served to them. Such is karma, and history books are full of it if someone cares to read.

              i have an issue with supposed sane people on the left supporting this fuckwit casue reasons, like he is not gonna start nuclear war with russia, and he is not corrupt like the others, and he is paying for his own ‘campaign’ and and and.

              i fucking pity everyone who will be in the cross hairs of the tea party and their pen. Cause that is all trump is, a pen. When he has served and has no more uses it will be either impeachment or resign for family reasons.

              Luckily for myself, i am a women who does not live in the US of this Arsehole.

              • Morrissey

                Who on the left supports him?

                • McFlock

                  Anyone who wanted Sanders so voted for Trump out of spite.
                  Anyone who diligently spread lies about Clinton in response to truths about Trump was a trump supporter.

                  Whether they otherwise identified as “left wing” or not has more individual variability.

                  • adam

                    Who are these mythical people McFlock?

                    • McFlock

                      mythical.

                      Yeah, right.

                    • McFlock

                      I’ll add the 50-odd thousand people who voted “green” in Pennsylvania, handing the state’s 20 electoral votes to Trump. Plus the 6,000 write-ins for Sanders in that state.

                      No, I’m not blaming them for handing trump the election. But they didn’t know beforehand whether those 20 EC votes would come in handy and still voted for Stein or Sanders.

                    • adam

                      I was a bit glib, sorry. My question is who at this point is doing that on the left? I’m not seeing anyone supporting him, except some wishy-washy types saying we should give him a chance – which I say he had his chance, and he chose a bloody awful cabinet.

                      You are speaking about a lost election, and blaming voters has never been a winner. Not for anyone.

                      I think you should blame the two party system, which puts up such revolting people. As you can’t expect people to eat a shit samwidge (sandwich) every election.

                    • McFlock

                      I don’t doubt that there’s a huge amount of buyers’ remorse going on, trouble is that the election was the last quantifiable snapshot of people aiding a right wing option while simultaneously aligning themselves with a fundamentally left wing position.

                      Like I said, I wasn’t blaming, just looking for clear examples.

                      It’s unlikely that all of them regret their decision, surely?

                    • Morrissey

                      Should we be blaming the voters who were faced with the unpalatable choice of Clinton or Trump? Or should we blame those outstanding strategists in the Democratic National Committee?

      • rhinocrates 1.2.3

        Meanwhile, Sean Spicer once again loses his temper and says that Trump is the real victim here:

        http://dcpols.com/sean-spicer-nothing-is-ever-good-enough-for-these-anne-frank-people/

        “Nothing Is Ever Good Enough For These Anne Frank People”

        Jesus fucking Christ.

  2. mauī 2

    Oh what a socially concious conservative government we have, keeping us safe and leading by their strong religious values… yeah right.

    New Zealand’s attempted suicide rate jumps 30% in a couple of years.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/89633923/police-default-mental-health-service-as-attempted-suicide-call-outs-jump-30-per-cent

    I will just say that if you are struggling with mental health issues or suicidal thoughts do whatever you can to keep yourself safe and well. Stay connected, talk to a friend, talk to a stranger, going out and getting some fresh air, getting some exercise. Little things like that can break a negative thought pattern. There’s helplines to ring too of course.

    • Sabine 2.1

      and the help lines to ring have had their resources cut and so on.

      Depression is a nasty thing, first you don’t know you have it, then everyone tells you to harden up and get over it, and once you realise that you are affected you need to find a doctor that you can afford, who actually listens and does not tell you to ‘sleep well, eat well, and get out more! (which was said to me after massive surgery several years ago that affected and re-directed my life), but is actually happy to listen and then is happy to spend the time with you to help and figure out how to manage it.

      I follow Rats – riders against suicide, a group that works with youth predominantly and gosh everytime its another kid, and there are so many it just breaks the heart. The future of this country is committing suicide and very little is being done about it.

  3. joe90 3

    When eye of newt, and toe of frog ain’t going to cut it, you make shit up.

    .

    As the Wall Street Journal first reported (and as I’ve independently confirmed through my own sources), the Trump transition team instead ordered CEA staffers to predict sustained economic growth of 3 to 3.5 percent. The staffers were then directed to backfill all the other numbers in their models to produce these growth rates.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trump-team-is-already-cooking-the-books/2017/02/20/a793961e-f7b2-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.a92138ddf129

  4. Ad 4

    If you would like commentary that puts together the economic policy appeal of a Trump presidency, in a manner that links together:

    – the 2008 recession and medium-length changes to GDP;
    – how fast and how far the dreadful collapse of work has been;
    – the accelerated divergence of an economy that produces massive wealth for its wealth-holders, while paying markedly less for its workers; and
    – an interesting section connecting health, wellness, the ability to work, the growth in recreational drugs, jails, and the economic legacy of incarceration, SEE:

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/our-miserable-21st-century/

    It’s not making that 20-20 hindsight case of Trump’s inevitability. But what it does do is flesh out the landscape beyond quick anecdotes about the rustbelt factories of the central-northern states, into something that shows an accelerated economic hollowing-out of America on a broad set of fronts.

  5. Morrissey 5

    So people fighting back against illegal occupation forces are “attackers” now

    How much more biased and misleading can the ABC get than this?….

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-22/israeli-soldier-jailed-for-killing-injured-palestinian-attacker/8291826

  6. Anne 6

    Okay, so Trotter has a propensity for exaggeration but his latest epistle is worth a read:

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/02/littles-broad-church-widens-labours.html

    … there are many in Labour’s ranks who do not like the idea of the party once again becoming a “broad church”. How better to prove the unwisdom of Little’s policy than to orchestrate a week-long outpouring of protest against the Jackson recruitment, culminating in a falling-off in support for Labour – and Little – as measured in the oh-so-conveniently scheduled Colmar Brunton survey?…

    … the campaign failed to achieve its objective. Far from registering a falling-off of support for Labour, the poll revealed a small, but very welcome, rise in support. At last, Labour was back in the 30s – an important morale-boost for both the caucus and the wider party. The recruitment of Jackson and the selection of the former Police Association President, Greg O’Connor, had produced precisely the effect which Little and his team had be working for…

    … How many more percentage points might Labour have advanced in the Colmar Brunton poll had “discontented party activists” not spent the week prior to its execution demonstrating rank disunity and ideological extremism?

    Some words for some to ponder on including those mentioned in the article. Unfortunately they won’t…

    • Morrissey 6.1

      Exaggeration is the least of Trotter’s failings. His condescending and inaccurate remarks about “Waitakere Man”—apparently working men, and in particular Maori working men, are too dim to think, unlike intellectual luminaries such as Chris Trotter and Jim Mora and Jeremy Elwood—make him signally inappropriate to quote for anything.

      And then there’s his carefully thought out support for Deep South lynch law….

    • weka 6.2

      Yeah, but he’s telling lies about The Standard, so why should the rest of the conspiracy theory be believed? It might be true, but the lie still stands out.

      • Anne 6.2.1

        @ weka
        If you don’t think there was an orchestrated campaign going on behind the scenes during the week in question then your knowledge of the Labour Party is scant. They (or at least some of them) invented such campaigns. The political countryside is littered with them over a long period of time!

        I have acknowledged Trotter is prone to exaggeration and certainly doesn’t always get it right. But this time he has got it right. Labour will never survive without being a broad church but there are some who are so blinded by their respective ‘bonnet bees’ they just can’t see – or don’t want to see – the damage they inflict on the party every time they go off half cock in public. They remind me of kamikaze pilots during WW2.

        • weka 6.2.1.1

          Anne, I’ve already said that it might be true. I’m not part of Labour, so how would I know? But at least 3 people who probably do know are telling lies about TS’s role in that (Trotter, Harmen and I think Bradbury), and I think that’s not insignificant in evaluating what is going on.

          You yourself, who do have insider knowledge, have just sidestepped my point completely. Again, this doesn’t build trust.

          I personally don’t have a problem with Labour being a broad church, which is why (look it up), I’m on record as saying that my issue isn’t with WJ being part of Labour but how Labour handle it. I actually said that before any of this shit went down.

          • Antoine 6.2.1.1.1

            Hey Weka

            People like Trotter and Bradbury do talk a lot of cr*p, I wouldn’t sweat it, life’s too short

            Also if you make a habit of doing what could be interpreted as criticising Labour on here, you are going to get some aggro from Labour people, again I wouldn’t sweat it

            A.

            • weka 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Yeah, but as I’ve noted down thread, that’s not actually what’s been happening. There’s not a lot to be done about Trotter etc (and my time is way better spent on writing posts), but when regular Standardistas bring it up, I think it’s worth addressing 🙂

        • Jenny Kirk 6.2.1.2

          and what’s more Anne, Little managed to “deal” to those involved with that orchestrated campaign – quietly, quickly, behind the scenes. The mark of a true Leader. Thank goodness. And about time !

          • Anne 6.2.1.2.1

            Thanks Jenny. I’m getting heartily sick of the criticisms levelled at Labour and Andrew Little. It’s like there’s a game in progress on this site to see who can be the nastiest about Labour instead of concentrating on the real nasties, the Nats.

            The way Little handled the ‘campaign culprits’ was worthy of accolades – not criticism.

            • adam 6.2.1.2.1.1

              Come on Anne, please.

              If labour actually had a economic policy that was different from nationals, I would never criticism them again. But in the real world and in political terms, political economy terms, the differences between labour and national are hard to find. And before you do the whole smug link thing, please note I read both parties policy on economics, and quite frankly liberal economics, is liberal economics, when it is liberal economics.

              The Tory scum are a terrible government, that is not up for discussion. What should be up for discussion rather than people getting abused or sneered at, is political economy. If labour party and there activists can’t handle that discussion, then maybe they should get out of the way.

      • Red 6.2.2

        To be fair he only quoted Harmen re the standard, so can’t be lying

  7. Morrissey 7

    The Arch-Terrorist Himself Comes Down Under

    Australia, which makes apartheid South Africa look humane, is laying out the red carpet for one of the worst human beings on the planet….

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-22/benjamin-netanyahu-arrives-in-sydney/8291846

    • tc 7.1

      He’ll be right at home alongside malcom, tony, the one nation senators and hard right breakaways like bernadi.

      Strip away the veneer and you will find Oz is not bothered about human rights.

  8. adam 8

    Class should be in the debate, because it is necessary. You don’t throw out other issues to talk about class. But you need to talk about class. We need to talk about class.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YsjDYPNPfw

    • Siobhan 8.1

      For a while there the average NZer (and American, and Brit…) thought that ‘working class’ meant you worked as a ditch digger or a washer woman, and that the fact you owned a big screen TV and could afford a car (albeit by incurring massive debt) meant you were ‘middle class’.
      The penny has finally dropped.
      I think, I hope, that ‘class’ will once again be an issue that people understand and discus. Without acknowledging ‘Class’ we are wasting our time trying to improve our lot in life.

      • adam 8.1.1

        I agree, we need to talk about class, but not at the exclusion of everything else. It as a essential issue, we can’t pass it up.

        The worst part here in NZ is we have a very deep myth about it being a egalitarian society, like most myths, very hard to break down.

      • North 8.1.2

        Spot on Siobhan. Your last sentence says it.

  9. weka 10

    Violet, from here https://thestandard.org.nz/kaupapa-pakeha/#comment-1302361

    We all know, that in little NZ, blogs like TS are often referred to. We also know that one of the biggest arguments against the left in NZ is that they fight amongst themselves constantly, and therefore are not capable of governing the country. The constant criticism of Labour here over the last few months, feeds directly into that view. And yes, I know this not a Labour blog, that is really not the point.

    And as a reader for many years, I am sure this has been a relatively recent change. In the past, I have come to this blog to read a practical opposition to the government from a practical left wing perspective. Of late, it seems to be more often a fanciful view of what politics could be if everyone behaved in a way that is so far from practical reality.

    A couple of points. One is that the Labour-bashing was going on for most of last year. I spoke against it quite a few times. I’ve even written a post about that that I haven’t published yet. It’s been delayed because of the US election mess here last year, and then more recently because of all the hooha over WJ (I had it loaded and just about ready to go). So whatever changes have happened in the past few months that you are seeing, Labour-bashing is not new here.

    A large part of that was the fact that an author and prolific commenter had a lot of leeway here last year to Labour-bash. He’s not here now as an author and hasn’t been here as a commenter for much of the past few months either.

    I”ve just had a look through the posts tagged Labour, and apart from the Kaupapa Pākehā one and the Poto Williams one, there aren’t really any ones that are that critical of Labour. Back in early Dec there were some but they weren’t critical of Labour so much as responding to criticism.

    I”m not saying your perceptions are wrong, but that unless you can be specific they’re not that helpful in understanding what you mean or looking at what needs to change. I really like it when people talk about what works here and what doesn’t, so have it. I’d just ask that you give examples so we can know what you are referring to.

    • Antoine 10.1

      I hear what you’re saying, and I don’t necessarily disagree with it, but I still bet there are a bunch of Standard readers who’re annoyed with you for being a Labour-basher

      A.

      • weka 10.1.1

        Why?

        • adam 10.1.1.1

          So what if people are offended or annoyed weka. Who cares if they have little hissy fits. There will always be a pernicious few, so ideology rigid to call anyone who can’t handle a open, free, and frank discussion, a splitter.

          A good example was the Poto/Willie argument. So quick were they to condemn her for critique, they missed that it ended up being a victory for her and Willie. That happens a lot here, people quick to judge, coupled with people not understanding some basics of politics.

          Me, I dislike parliamentary politics, it is a distraction. Plus it burns up the good people. I’d rather people got on with organising, and doing things outside the system to change society for the better.

          And as you know, this fetish of left right means nothing when people don’t understand economics.

          Personally weka, you have been doing a great job. Especially in difficult times.

          • Karen 10.1.1.1.1

            “Personally weka, you have been doing a great job. Especially in difficult times.”

            I endorse this – I don’t always agree with Weka but I do think she is patient and fair under sometimes trying conditions.

  10. Anne 11

    I am so disappointed that this blog has turned this way over the last few months. What we need now, is strong support for a change in government at the next elections. And no, that doesn’t mean no criticism of Labour. But the reality is, like it or not, Labour doing well in the upcoming election is crucial for a change in government.

    My sentiments too Violet. Thank-you for expressing them so well. I have yet to figure out what exactly has happened to TS over the past few months, but there is a sense of intolerance and a lack of respect towards points of view that don’t always fit nicely with what the majority are saying on this site. I say that with some reservation because it only applies to a relatively few number of commenters who happen to be more prolific contributors, and by no means are all of them are at fault. However if it continues, it will start to turn people off coming here.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Antoine 11.1

      > a relatively few number of commenters who happen to be more prolific contributors

      Who are we talking about here?

      (Without wanting to get anyone moderated)

      A.

      • weka 11.1.1

        That won’t get you moderated. I’d like to know too, because without people being explicit we’re just talking in riddles.

    • Anne 11.2

      I replied to Violet who was just above me. Now she’s gone!! What the hell.

      A little of something I was talking about………

  11. adam 12

    Oh look one more point where trump and co. believe their own lies.

    https://www.publicintegrity.org/2017/02/17/20725/lobbyists-helped-bankroll-donald-trump-s-transition?

    Oh look the guy who was calling transgender perverts falls from grace because he is a major sicko himself. Arguing in favour of young boy and older men having sexual relationships. Mind you lets you how much the right wing are willing to accept; Racism, transphobia, and sexism – and of course just plain bigotry.

    That said could not have happened to a better Muppet. Calling Larry Wigmore dumb, what a smug little tosser, no wait – what a smug little pedophile.

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/20/14673036/milo-yiannopoulos-cpac-pedophilia-tape

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