Open mike 23/01/2022

104 comments on “Open mike 23/01/2022 ”

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1. pat 1

   23 January 2022 at 8:28 am

   “We need to adopt a whole new mentality now,” Sutherland added. “The psychological approach that we took isn't going to work for Omicron… We can't stamp it out. That’ll take a mindset change.”

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/127539299/covid19-nz-new-zealands-omicron-future-explained.
   • Dennis Frank 1.1

     23 January 2022 at 9:35 am

     Seems like an excellent review to me. Pragmatism will rule – unless a new variant shows up, requiring a new strategy.

     In early January, three Americans proposed a plan for the “new normal”: that is, life with Covid-19. The coronavirus, they wrote, should be seen as another circulating respiratory illness – like influenza or respiratory syncytial virus (RSV)… Think of this as ‘mitigation’, it will likely mean success is gauged not via case numbers but by whether the hospitals are swamped or not… South Africa is also pivoting towards a new approach made possible by the fact, as a trio of public health experts write: “The death rate with [the] Omicron wave in South Africa is on track to be approximately one-tenth compared to the Delta wave.”

     Two triads already, then the traffic-light system is shown in a picture to make three. The fourth triad to show up is here:

     In a recent column Professor Devi Sridhar, the chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh, wrote of three groups of scientists offering, broadly speaking, three different takes on Covid right now: the ones who’ve always wanted to let it rip, the ones who still believe the dangers are akin to March 2020, and the ones who believe the virus has been tempered by treatments and vaccination, and it’s time to find a sustainable way forward.

     Notice how the archetype influences the thinking of the global public health expert. First, to separate out covid scientists into three distinct groups of opinion. Second, to correlate those groups with operational strategies. Third, by implication, public health policies which correlate with those strategies.

     Perceptive readers will notice that I used triadic framing myself to make this point! Observing real-world informing of thought processes in communication by reading the subtext will only appeal to discerning readers of course. The value of doing so with regard to how primary numbers shape thinking is that it shifts gnosis from tacit to conscious, making archetypes useful tools to upskill how we do politics…
     • RedLogix 1.1.1

       23 January 2022 at 9:55 am

       Perceptive readers will notice that I used triadic framing myself to make this point!

       In which case you may enjoy this.

       In this trifold model, each political pole is contending not with one other opponent but two, yet we almost always we tend to conflate the two.

       and the ones who believe the virus has been tempered by treatments and vaccination, and it’s time to find a sustainable way forward.

       And I would firmly place myself in this camp, but that is not tolerated either.

       But otherwise yes – Omicron is increasingly looking like the correct exit ramp, although managing our speed would be prudent.
       • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1

         23 January 2022 at 10:40 am

         If I didn't comment on it at the time it would be due to your specification that there was no place in that framing for radical centrists (of which I am one). However, as a political framing of mainstreamers, it is indeed way better than the conventional one. I agree the triad socialist/liberal/conservative is more accurate than the old left/right binary.

         a sustainable way forward

         That's the gate the sheeple will head for. Seymour & Luxon barking at them will accelerate the flock but I suspect Ardern will be on that bandwagon soon if she isn't already (to avoid being left behind). A new variant would get everyone to focus on the terrain on the other side of the gate!

         almost always we tend to conflate the two

         Binary thinking is ingrained as our default. Powerful evolutionary pressures drive it: is this solution right or wrong? is this stranger good or evil?

         However triads are built into the substructure of life, and they inform us. Time's triad is past/present/future. The binary of sex produces a child – the triad of family. We locate something with our two eyes: focus makes perspective, the thing we focus on forms a triad in our perception to judge position & distance. Walking is binary oscillation but leg connections to body & brain each make functional triads to produce locomotion. I could go on!
         • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.1

           23 January 2022 at 10:48 am

           lol – the simplest analogy I often reach for in my crude engineering mind is a chair or stool.

           Minimum number of legs necessary for stable functioning = 3
           • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1.1

             23 January 2022 at 10:52 am

             That’s why I tend to fall off those bar stools on one leg!!
         • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.2

           23 January 2022 at 10:58 am

           I didn't comment on it at the time it would be due to your specification that there was no place in that framing for radical centrists (of which I am one).

           Well you missed the bus – comments under that post are now closed.
2. aom 2

   23 January 2022 at 9:06 am

   Obviously, National still can't come up with a leader who shows some signs of competence. The latest singing to the faithful by Luxon shows just how out of touch he is.

   His solutions are: "First, we must focus on protecting the vulnerable: those most likely to end up in hospital and ICU.” Of course he has forgotten that from day one, the plan was to avoid the need for massively increased capacity which can’t be provided overnight anyway.

   “We should inundate our rest homes and retirement villages with booster shots, and work around the clock getting boosters into vulnerable communities. We should work with and support Māori providers. We should urgently upgrade our ICU capacity."

   Has he got evidence to prove booster shots haven't been administered in rest homes and retirement villages? It seems he is behind the 8-ball on that too. Besides, the latest statistics on vulnerability show he may have the wrong target.

   Is Luxon unaware that Maori and PI initiatives are now paying dividends despite the revivalist religious money from NZ and overseas having been funneled into anti-vax campaigns targeting those communities?

   How does the aspiring PM think our ICU capacity can be increased? The problem he has here is that he doesn't seem to understand that ICU isn't just the provision of beds in buildings. The issue is the staffing of five or more well qualified nurses required for each bed. We have already syphoned off loads of nurses from counties with lower-waged economies and left their health services struggling. Otherwise, we are unable to attract and train sufficient nursing staff to replace natural attrition and staff 'poached' by overseas health systems.

   All in all, Luxon isn't proving to be a useful tool in the political toolbox, unless his sole purpose is to keep barking at passing cars.
   • vto 2.1

     23 January 2022 at 9:20 am

     the problem is that luxon represents capital

     because of this he is a very limited person
   • Muttonbird 2.2

     23 January 2022 at 10:20 am

     (Rapid Antigen Tests) are still extremely hard to come by; New Zealand companies are waiting weeks for permission to import them. In Australia and many other countries, you can walk into a supermarket and buy one off the shelf.

     This is the first google search for RATs in Australia, no stock. Here's Woolworths, no stock. And Coles, in WA no less, has pulled them from online sale and can't supply stores.

     Luxon is either ill-informed and shooting off at the mouth because that's what has got him where he is today, or he is deliberately lying to the New Zealand public.

     Also, Covid deaths/million: Australia 118, NZ 10. And this clown wants to throw the borders open because the cheap foreign labour model to which he is so wedded is unable to operate.
   • Bearded Git 2.3

     23 January 2022 at 10:47 am

     Luxon wants a timetable for the the border to be opened for his business mates. But Premier McGowan in Western Australia has decided that the economy is working just fine in WA and so has decided to keep the border closed until 80% have been boosted.

     NZ has had the same experience-the economy is doing well despite Covid.

     So I suggest the government give Luxon the timetable and certainty that he wants-the border will open (and MIQ will end) when 90% of Kiwis are boosted. Simple.

     …..of course all of this may be blown out of the water by the 11am urgent Jacinda/Bloomfield press conference just announced. I guess Omicron is here and we are all going to Red?
3. weka 3

   23 January 2022 at 10:01 am

   RNZ.

   https://twitter.com/craigmcculloch/status/1484982966673866753
   • Anne 3.1

     23 January 2022 at 10:04 am

     Red Traffic Light looming?

     I bet the supermarkets are in overdrive.

     Buy your toilet rolls now folks. 😉
     • weka 3.1.1

       23 January 2022 at 10:16 am

       don't peak too soon 😉
     • Blade 3.1.2

       23 January 2022 at 11:09 am

       Talkback is saying the country is going Red. Don't know if that's the whole country, or not.

       If true, it seems Jacinda couldn't help herself.
       • Robert Guyton 3.1.2.1

         23 January 2022 at 11:11 am

         Witless comment there, Blade!
         • Blade 3.1.2.1.1

           23 January 2022 at 11:29 am

           You know, Robert, there's talk about Righties getting an easy ride with the moderators on this site. I don't know whether that is true or not, but I have often wondered how your pithy vacuous comments past muster most of the time.

           I wrote before to Weka that I was wondering whether the PM would be able to go against her instincts and not call a lockdown. Well, she hasn't, but she's at the border by moving us to a red light setting.

           The red light setting will not make an itoa of difference for a number of reasons. Then the PM will have to make a decision about a lockdown.

           But for some businesses, red light means they will be closing.
           • Robert Guyton 3.1.2.1.1.1

             23 January 2022 at 11:33 am

             Jacinda, alone and unadvised, went with her instinct, and made this call?

             That's a pretty witless comment, in my opinion.
             • Blade …

               23 January 2022 at 11:37 am

               It's also stating the obvious. I didn't know the buck didn't stop with Jacinda, especially when given different advice by different ministries and organisations.
               • Blade …

                 23 January 2022 at 11:41 am

                 No need to watch a press conference to know a red light setting won't make a difference.

                 Maybe someone else could explain to you why in a more cogent manner than I am capable of.

                 • reply to Muttonbird
                 • Muttonbird …

                   23 January 2022 at 11:44 am

                   You made the claim. It is up to you to back it up, not hide behind your lack of cognitive function.
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 11:52 am

                     Ok, I'll start the ball rolling. A lock down is a lockdown. People know the score.

                     A red light setting won't make people ditch an orange light mentality. For them it will be business as usual…apart from becoming more FRUSTARTED as new red light protocols come into force.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     23 January 2022 at 11:55 am

                     "a lockdown is a lockdown"

                     "A red light setting won't make people ditch an orange light mentality. For them it will be business as usual"

                     I'm beginning to understand your claim,

                     "Maybe someone else could explain to you why in a more cogent manner than I am capable of."
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     23 January 2022 at 11:56 am

                     Also,

                     "a lockdown is a lockdown".

                     "The red light setting will not make an itoa of difference for a number of reasons. Then the PM will have to make a decision about a lockdown."
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:12 pm

                     "a lockdown is a lockdown".

                     Robert, you are floundering. Here's what a wrote:

                     ''A lock down is a lockdown. People know the score.''

                     No room for pleading ignorance under a lockdown. Of, course under a red light setting there’s a myriad of things that can be ignored or done poorly.

                     Do you understand?
                   • Muttonbird …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:16 pm

                     Also not true, Blade. Large events cannot go ahead, at all. Hospitality must use vaccine passes to be able to have up to 100 people inside and they must be seated. These are not, "things that can be ignored or done poorly".
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:36 pm

                     ''Also not true, Blade. Large events cannot go ahead, at all. Hospitality must use vaccine passes to be able to have up to 100 people inside and they must be seated. These are not, "things that can be ignored or done poorly".

                     But what about Joe's Diner? Millies nail and sensual massage parlour? A Mongrel Mob funeral…and the man in the street that doesn't give a fuck after two weeks of frustration in the red light setting.

                     What about fake vaccine passes? A mainframe check is required to know if they are kosher as I understand it.

                     Of course if the PM was to call a lockdown …ah, then I'm sure that would slow Omicron. Will she…?
               • Robert Guyton …

                 23 January 2022 at 11:44 am

                 The manufactured, overheated, politicised blame will settle there, sure, but your assertion that the decision to implement "red" is down to Jacinda's instinct, rather than an informed, shared, considered process, is a nonsense.
                 • Blade …

                   23 January 2022 at 12:02 pm

                   ''The manufactured, overheated, politicised blame will settle there, sure,''

                   Correct. As it should be. She is our leader.

                   ''But your assertion that the decision to implement "red" is down to Jacinda's instinct, rather than an informed, shared, considered process, is a nonsense."

                   Not only Jacinda's instinct, but Labours caucus as well ( but as released papers have shown, that's not the case with all medical advice, eg Auckland's lockdown). But the bottom line must surely be after the debating is over, and especially if there is contradictory advice, Jacinda must make the call…??? And of course she will go with advice that gels with her instincts.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:06 pm

                     I see.

                     So this,

                     "it seems Jacinda couldn't help herself."

                     Was nonsense, as I first noted.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:07 pm

                     if there is contradictory advice

                     A scenario in which experts disagree with public health officials would be worth discussing – if evidence of such can be cited!
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 12:22 pm

                     I don't know of any contradictory advice, Dennis. Apart from Labour ignoring Ashley Bloomfield's advice that Auckland could have come out of lock down sooner, if I remember correctly.

                     BTW – as a matter of interest – do you believe the red light setting will slow Covid?
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     23 January 2022 at 1:13 pm

                     do you believe the red light setting will slow Covid?

                     Complex systems theory says that transitions between stable states are inherently unpredictable, and can happen fast in response to tiny trigger stimulation causing a cascade of effects flowing through the system.

                     In accord with that, my answer would be that it appears unlikely. However, the red light does change the state of the system itself. The change is from fluid to relatively static. So my answer becomes yes!

                     The only caveat I would apply to the situation is if community transmission is already cascading – in which case no becomes a more feasible answer. I reckon, therefore, that we won't know for a week or two how effective the red light is.
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 1:44 pm

                     Crikey, that's a wicked reply, Dennis. I reckon it'll take me six weeks to understand the import of what you have written.

                     Therefore, let's concentrate on the caveat. Given a negative test result for Covid really means nothing in the scheme of things, and given we already have community spread with maybe many more positive results coming in the next few days, I would have to say your answer would be in the negative for slowing the Omicron spread.

                     The only factor I haven't considered in this debate is:

                     How scared are people once they realise we are in paradise lost??

                     Today at the supermarket I saw full on panic Paracetamol and similar products were gone. Ditto toilet paper and water. Rationing was also in place.

                     Such people who panic like that are not likely to go around looking to become a Covid statistic.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     23 January 2022 at 2:04 pm

                     Crikey, that's a wicked reply, Dennis. I reckon it'll take me six weeks to understand the import of what you have written.

                     I'll help. Dennis is a self-described radical centrist and his comment there is a good illustration of what that means in action. Analyse from every angle, then finally come up with no decision. And this is why centrists, radical or otherwise, get nothing done.

                     Dennis, this is meant to be light-hearted.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     23 January 2022 at 2:07 pm

                     I saw a tv presenter earlier telling viewers not to panic. She probably is too young to know that traditionally this instruction has always been known to be the best way to start a panic!

                     So yeah, there'll be some headless chookery happening out there now. Dunno about scared tho. Folks are more likely to hunker down as if it were an actual lockdown, then cautiously doing wait & see the next week or two.

                     Govt has done ok with both prior waves of covid so people are more likely to trust them than not. Labour's poll rating holding well informs us how powerful this collective mind-set is.

                     Haven't seen Billy TK jr leading a protest recently – maybe he'll come out & defy omicron to compete with the bishop. Heroic public stands build political reputations…
                   • Blade …

                     23 January 2022 at 2:09 pm

                     Dennis is the man.
           • Muttonbird 3.1.2.1.1.2

             23 January 2022 at 11:34 am

             The red light setting will not make an itoa of difference for a number of reasons.

             Yet you haven’t explained those reasons. Not even one.

             Had you been watching the press conference, would know the red light setting slows the spread by, among other things, limiting numbers at large events, reenforcing mask wearing rules, and stopping unvaxxed people from gathering in numbers more than 25.
   • weka 3.2

     23 January 2022 at 10:15 am

     https://twitter.com/NZedAUS/status/1484997560901464064
4. Patricia Bremner 4

   23 January 2022 at 10:30 am

   Buy some panadol ibuprophen nasal spray lozenges and green tea. Make a kit of your medical needs and vaccination status. Make a cleaning and rubbish kit with spray/bleach gloves paper towels rubbish bags and masks. Make a sign for the back and front doors. Buddy with a phone friend. Join an online reading site. Keep up the current advice and try not to stress.
   • Muttonbird 4.1

     23 January 2022 at 10:42 am

     My fear is that my workplaces will get shut down as cases inevitably enter them. Fine if there is government support available but, reading between the lines, that seems to have ended.
     • Sabine 4.1.1

       23 January 2022 at 10:50 am

       Well, take a wait and see approach. But yeah, when customers, and staff are all equally sick it might be that leases, fixed costs and the likes will be paid with good intention in lieu of cash.
     • higherstandard 4.1.2

       23 January 2022 at 11:45 am

       Once numbers of infections get to a certain level I expect a pragmatic approach to be taken as has been the case in certain jurisdictions overseas an example being in Melbourne where COVID positive HCPs who are barely symptomatic work on the Covid ward if they are happy to do so.

       It'll depend what workplace your in I suppose.
   • Matiri 4.2

     23 January 2022 at 11:00 am

     Already done most of that Patricia – it's our emergency preparedness kit plus panadol tissues and masks. We have a well stocked pantry and freezer. Dog has just died so that is one less thing to worry about sadly.
     • Patricia Bremner 4.2.1

       23 January 2022 at 10:46 pm

       Oh that is a shame Matiri. We have one old cat. Yes being as prepared as you can be is one thing we can do.
5. Whispering Kate 5

   23 January 2022 at 11:02 am

   It would seem the Government this time around is promoting the mantra of personal responsibility for everybody. Get a health kit up, batten down the hatches and carry on as usual like the winter flu season. That's all very well and good. What about people who live alone, maybe don't have rellies living close and are reclusive. This will be a classic case of survival of the fittest. What will happen to households who have to isolate for up to a month with family sick. How's that going to work???

   As for the children starting the school year, what a crazy idea that is. Omicron will go through the schools like a dose of salts and fell everybody in its path and a large percentage of the kids haven't had their first shot yet.. I am head scratching with the government this time around. They turn Northland orange and probably within two weeks will have to take it back to red.

   Finally I wish to say that I personally feel terrible for the front line staff in the hospitals who will have to man the lines and face very ill people and the high chance of becoming very ill themselves. As Randy Newman sang in the song "Take Pity on the Working Man" – its a case of take pity on the health professionals each and every one of them.
   • Sabine 5.1

     23 January 2022 at 11:21 am

     I really hope that they announce something like a supplement payment for food for all beneficiaries. There is no way surge pricing will be avoided, and the poor will just go hungry, and hungry makes people angry and angry people lay hands.

     Just for once, be savage Labour Party and hand over a handfull of dollars to those that have none.
   • weka 5.2

     23 January 2022 at 3:00 pm

     It would seem the Government this time around is promoting the mantra of personal responsibility for everybody. Get a health kit up, batten down the hatches and carry on as usual like the winter flu season. That's all very well and good. What about people who live alone, maybe don't have rellies living close and are reclusive. This will be a classic case of survival of the fittest. What will happen to households who have to isolate for up to a month with family sick. How's that going to work???

     I think we will see more on this in the coming week.

     Ardern’s explanation of why bother slowing omicron down: we are a team, some of us are particularly vulnerable, we can look after everyone.

     …

     When we have a larger number of cases in community, systems looking at the more vulnerable people, identify them quickly, get proper medical assessment and getting the care they need. Scaling up from delta system.

     from https://thestandard.org.nz/going-red/

     They're suggesting a neigbourhood buddy system.

     Public Health Units in the DHB are tasked with doing interviews with and then providing support for people who have symptoms onwards.

     I see lots of gaps, but I wouldn't characterise this as survival of the fittest or the govt saying it's on personal responsibility.
6. weka 6

   23 January 2022 at 11:19 am

   Post is up on the current announcement re omicron outbreak and the move to the Red Traffic Light.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/going-red/
7. Dennis Frank 7

   23 January 2022 at 11:25 am

   Just watched the PM explain the red switch. I go along with re-using the precautionary principle & agree that one rule for all must prevail until we see how folks are being hit by the spread of the infection. So the sheeple keen to head for the escape gate will have to keep circling in the middle of the paddock a while longer.

   I'll be looking for the stats on hospitalisation over the next few weeks. If they don't freak everyone out, pressure to ease the red light back to orange will grow & political opposition will get traction…
   • Whispering Kate 7.1

     23 January 2022 at 11:52 am

     Wow its gone Red. Here I was saying its a stupid idea to turn Northland orange only to be returned to Red and it didn't even last two weeks. What a wasted exercise that was.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       23 January 2022 at 11:55 am

       yep, but made for good daily entertainment.
     • Dennis Frank 7.1.2

       23 January 2022 at 11:59 am

       Fickle finger of fate flicked the switch. Risk management defence kicks in accordingly. Public tolerance will prevail for now I expect. Businesses will wonder if complaining is a good idea. Dunno about folks on holiday. Limbo??
   • weka 7.2

     23 January 2022 at 2:55 pm

     unlikely to be a few weeks. We're in a good position to slow the outbreaks, so the first peak may be some time away.

     Red is not particularly onerous other than for large gatherings.
8. swordfish 8

   23 January 2022 at 12:18 pm

   .

   Ms Ardern … BUILD THAT WALL !!! … in fact 2 walls … both plumb through the middle of each Island .. east to west … northern halves of each island become no-go Omicron zones routinely monitored by security forces loyal to the Imperial South … southern halves remain havens of serenity & business as usual … Civilised Ancient Romes to the Uncouth Northern Hordes.

   Wellington, Palmy, Napier, Whangers, Masters, Plimmers, Chch, Dunners, Queeners, Timers, Invers … indeed, even Bluffers … Unite !

   And while we’re at it … let’s draw up a strategic mutual-holiday partnership with our equally refined cousins in the Australian West.
9. higherstandard 9

   23 January 2022 at 12:26 pm

   Weka – I suggest you have a cup of tea and a lie down.

   To repeat I was speaking directly to Swordfish in relation to getting his booster

   If swordfish is vaccinated under 65-70 (or over and healthy) this variant isn't something swordfish should worry him/herself about to any great degree.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [I suggest you pay more attention to guidance from authors. Stay out of that post for the rest of the day – weka]
   • weka 9.1

     23 January 2022 at 12:31 pm

     mod note.
     • higherstandard 9.1.1

       23 January 2022 at 12:46 pm

       No problem – I am out of here for the foreseeable future – happy blogging
   • Incognito 9.2

     23 January 2022 at 12:32 pm

     I suggest you get off your high horse before you fall off it.

     Obviously, swordfish has good reason to worry about access to the booster.

     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-01-2022/#comment-1851432
     • higherstandard 9.2.1

       23 January 2022 at 12:45 pm

       I was unaware of swordfishes personal circumstances – very understandable that he/she is more anxious in that situation.

       The outpatients clinic in wellington will be providing advice on the best time he/she should be getting a booster.
       • weka 9.2.1.1

         23 January 2022 at 12:52 pm

         the point is that it's anyone's personal circumstances.

         You said to someone on the internet you don't know,

         If you are under 65-70 (or over and healthy) this variant isn't something you should worry yourself about to any great degree.

         This is patently not true. Plenty of people have personal circumstances that mean they do indeed need to be concerned and take care. The whole pandemic announcement just made is predicated on that.

         This is why you are banned from the post for the day. I don't spend time writing posts so people can drop in random reckons that promote disinformation and/or derail conversations.

         You've been here long enough to know how it works.
10. julian richards 10

    23 January 2022 at 12:28 pm

    @weka is now the TS version of the 'whole truth'… Careful, he may ban you for having an opposing individual thought and opinion.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

    [That’s Mr Weka to you. Stay out of that post for the rest of the day. And, count this as a warning: if I see you making shit up about my moderation again, or having a go at me personally, I will ban you. Not for having opposing thoughts but for being a dickhead. I already spent a fair amount of time giving you good guidance the other day on how to present individual thoughts and opinions here. I see that fell on deaf ears, so I’m not wasting any more of my time – weka]
    • weka 10.1

      23 January 2022 at 12:35 pm

      mod note.
    • Robert Guyton 10.2

      23 January 2022 at 12:36 pm

      Probably more likely to "provide an opportunity for rest and reflection" for anyone exhibiting stupidity, I'd have thought.; take care, julian!
      Edit: I was too slow with my helpful advice!
      • weka 10.2.1

        23 January 2022 at 12:55 pm

        Robert, what's the deal with toxic algae in the Southland rivers? RNZ had it on the broadcast news, but no update on their website yet.

        Is this water flows as well as pollution? Are farmer takes from the rivers affecting flows or is it climate related?
        • weka 10.2.1.1

          23 January 2022 at 12:59 pm

          Link broken on the Whitestone information

          https://maps.es.govt.nz/index.aspx?app=summer-swimming
          • weka 10.2.1.1.1

            23 January 2022 at 12:59 pm

            broken links on others too.
        • Robert Guyton 10.2.1.2

          23 January 2022 at 3:20 pm

          It's a sad state of affairs, weka. These alerts are becoming more frequent and yes, water levels and nutrient loads are factors. Full and functioning rivers are inured against toxic outcomes like these and the factors that affect those rivers are as you suspect them to be. Rainfall here recently, has been reduced, because of climatic factors, but as you also probably expect, those factors are challenged, depending upon which side of the fence you sit. There are those who want to see a re-nturalising of the rivers and greater restrictions put on water take, and there are those who want to increase that take but compensate by establishing storage facilities for water that falls during other (wetter) seasons. The debate goes on. I pin my hopes on Te Mana o te Wai, but expect climate change to be the real influencer. This probably sounds like political evasion, but hey, it's election year for local government (I jest).
          • weka 10.2.1.2.1

            23 January 2022 at 4:01 pm

            I'm imagining those rivers with catchments full of forests and wetlands and estuaries and aquifers, and less full of farms but still regenag and food forests and ecosystems we have yet to co-arise with.

            Breaks my heart though. Murihiku is a wetland.

            (if people can't farm without stealing from rivers and aquifers, maybe they should be doing something else).
11. Treetop 11

    23 January 2022 at 1:06 pm

    See how many Omicron cases occur from the Auckland marathon being held today? 8,000 expected to participate. At least they will be registered. I do not know if masks are mandatory. Try running in a mask.
    • Gezza 11.1

      23 January 2022 at 1:15 pm

      I strongly doubt any runners will be wearing masks. Masks make breathing slightly harder. You get a wee bit less air. For most healthy people that’s not a problem. But you need every molecule of oxygen you can get when you run.
      • Gezza 11.1.1

        23 January 2022 at 1:17 pm

        🙄 *atom of oxygen
        • Muttonbird 11.1.1.1

          23 January 2022 at 1:35 pm

          You were right the first time. Oxygen exists in the atmosphere as O2, a diatomic molecule.
          • Gezza 11.1.1.1.1

            23 January 2022 at 1:43 pm

            Thanks. I didn’t know that. 👍🏼
            • Muttonbird 11.1.1.1.1.1

              23 January 2022 at 1:50 pm

              Also, did you know that air weighs about 1.25kg per cubic meter (at sea level). I am often amazed by that, but it explains why wind can be so powerful and damaging when moving at pace.
              • Gezza …

                23 January 2022 at 2:05 pm

                Nope. Didn’t know that. That’s a lot heavier than I’d have said if asked to guess.
              • weka …

                23 January 2022 at 2:52 pm

                😎
          • alwyn 11.1.1.1.2

            23 January 2022 at 3:08 pm

            Plus a very, very small amount of Ozone where there are 3 Oxygen atoms in the molecule. That is a very nasty little beast.
            • mac1 11.1.1.1.2.1

              23 January 2022 at 4:13 pm

              Yet ozone allows us to be on this planet else we'd be fried by the incoming radiation.

              https://www.un.org/en/observances/ozone-day/science

              There's a philosophical discussion in there somewhere about the use of context when fact pronouncing……
              • alwyn …

                23 January 2022 at 6:20 pm

                Oh yes. It is indeed very useful when it is up in the stratosphere. That is between 15 km and 30 km up of course and well past the level at which a human being trying to breath without assistance is going to be alive for very long. If you up there without an oxygen supply you would be dead long before the ozone would hurt you.

                Geeza and Muttonbird were of course talking about near sea-level as they were considering people running in the Auckland marathon. There is still some ozone there, mostly from reactions in vehicle exhaust gases. That Ozone is what will hurt you.
      • Treetop 11.1.2

        23 January 2022 at 2:22 pm

        Oxygen and carbon dioxide need to be within the required limits for breathing.
        • Gezza 11.1.2.1

          23 January 2022 at 3:20 pm

          I belatedly googled a couple of queries on whether masks affect breathing & received hit after hit from mostly medical sources saying that tests showed exercising in masks was perfectly fine; that they had no deleterious effect on breathing or gas exchange. Even for people with breathing problems like COPD or asthma, cystic fibrosis etc.

          A couple noted the psychological impact of wearing masks made some people more aware of their breathing, which we mostly do unconsciously. This made some of them hyperventilate or hypoventilate, both of which cause health problems. One of them had suggestions for how to train yourself not to do this.

          But I note after double-checking on YouTube that Olympic athletes competed without masks.
          • Treetop 11.1.2.1.1

            23 January 2022 at 3:42 pm

            I have given it a thought how frontline health workers manage wearing a mask all day and dart from patient to patient. What if no air conditioning?

            I would agree that hypoventilation or hyperventilation affects breathing.
    • Anne 11.2

      23 January 2022 at 4:52 pm

      If you're talking about the one on the North Shore, they woke me up around 5am banging around the joint. God knows what they were doing. Then the main hoard thumped past around 6.30 am shouting at one another.

      Oops, apparently the banging was the toilet doors. They chose to put them close to my home.
      • Treetop 11.2.1

        23 January 2022 at 6:39 pm

        There tends to be a bit of a queue for the dunny in the morning. Running on empty would help. As for the banging doors the runners would have been in a big hurry. I saw that the runs were a symptom of Omicron.

        Sounds like an early night required for you Anne.
        • Anne 11.2.1.1

          23 January 2022 at 11:34 pm

          
12. Whispering Kate 12

    23 January 2022 at 1:22 pm

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-omicron-new-sub-variant-under-investigation-as-it-sweeps-europe/YVTZXUISAZFSFVSWJV6WNBIAJA/

    Well folks as if we haven't got enough on our plates to concern ourselves with Omicron has introduced a sister variant. I think somewhere in another life we "must have killed ourselves some chinamen" as my old granny used to quote when shit was hitting the fan. I have no idea where she got this quotation from but it was her idea of karma. Hang in tight and do your best.
    • Dennis Frank 12.1

      23 January 2022 at 1:36 pm

      The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) identified more than 400 cases in Britain in the first 10 days of this month and has indicated the latest variant has been detected in some 40 other countries, accounting for a majority of most recent cases in some nations including India, Denmark and Sweden.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/22/omicron-sub-variant-throws-up-new-virus-questions

      Yes, looks like this is a competitive strain too. Too early to say more than that.
      • fender 12.1.1

        23 January 2022 at 2:57 pm

        There was a report out of Cyprus a couple of weeks ago, but I don't remember where I heard it, that they had detected a new strain they were calling DeltaCron. Presumably a mix of the two.
      • Poission 12.1.2

        23 January 2022 at 3:59 pm

        The new sub variant BA. 2 is outperforming BA.1,it also has an interesting property of reinfection of those who had been previously infected with BA.1.

        https://twitter.com/yaneerbaryam/status/1484888801155723269?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1484907570380877825%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fquery%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2Fyaneerbaryam2Fstatus2F1484907570380877825widget%3DTweet
        • Dennis Frank 12.1.2.1

          23 January 2022 at 4:26 pm

          Jeez, that'll spook a few folks I reckon.
    • Treetop 12.2

      23 January 2022 at 2:17 pm

      A head start to receiving unwanted Covid news just might be an advantage.
13. alwyn 13

    23 January 2022 at 6:54 pm

    What I find impossible to accept is that she seems to think that having to postpone a party is equivalent to not being able to get home to see a parent in their last days. Or, and even worse, a child who is dying.

    That is nothing like choosing to postpone a big party for a month or two. And yes, I do call it a party. Getting married to someone you have been living with for the best part of a decade and whom you have had children with is a pretty meaningless exercise except to have a big party. Does the fact that you have now married, as opposed to just having been living together for many years actually make any difference?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

    [provide a citation (link and quote) to support the idea that Ardern “seems to think that having to postpone a party is equivalent to not being able to get home to see a parent in their last days. Or, and even worse, a child who is dying”. Or clearly retract. Or take a ban. No, I’m not going to argue about it – weka]
    • Gypsy 13.1

      23 January 2022 at 7:00 pm

      It may make a difference to them, I don't know. But I suspect she is simply giving herself an opportunity to feign empathy in the future.

      A very close friend (a fully vaccinated NZ citizen) was refused a priority place in MIQ to firstly visit a dying relative, and then attend the funeral. Meanwhile DJ's waltz in. The 'be kind' bs is wearing very thin.
    • Muttonbird 13.2

      23 January 2022 at 7:02 pm

      She seems to think that having to postpone a party is equivalent to not being able to get home to see a parent in their last days.

      

      Ardern said, "I am no different to…thousands of other New Zealanders who have had much more devastating impacts from the pandemic. The most gutting of which is the inability to be with a loved one when they are gravely ill – that will far, far outstrip any sadness I experience".

      Alwyn, you take first prize for hardness of heart in these difficult times. And also first prize for spreading misinformation on this particular issue, which is saying something because Blade has been giving everything he has.
    • Robert Guyton 13.3

      23 January 2022 at 8:25 pm

      When you 3 clump together like this, the word, "clot" comes to mind.
    • weka 13.4

      23 January 2022 at 9:05 pm

      mod note.
      • alwyn 13.4.1

        24 January 2022 at 1:51 pm

        My criticism is based on the following statement made by the Prime Minister.

        "I am no different to…thousands of other New Zealanders who have had much more devastating impacts from the pandemic. The most gutting of which is the inability to be with a loved one when they are gravely ill – that will far, far outstrip any sadness I experience".

        She did, in the second part of that statement qualify her comment but it does not change the fact that she said "I am no different to…thousands of other New Zealanders". She is vastly different to the other people she is talking about. They could not get here to see loved ones. She had to postpone a wedding. There is no valid comparison at all, at least in my opinion. In her case she could get married, essentially immediately, in a Registry Office. She can, if she wants have a great party at a later date.

        For the people who couldn't get home to see loved ones there is no second chance. The aren't just delaying something. They are never going to be able to do it.

        However the PM compared the two situations when she said ""I am no different to…thousands of other New Zealanders". You are in a different situation. Full Stop.

        On the other hand I am happy to be able to withdraw my comments about the PM, or the Department, not having any empathy with the girl from PNG. The spot was made available and she is, with her mother, home to get treatment. There may be problems as the bones had started to mend but they should be able to get around them I'd think. I can't really see that a couple of days delay in issuing the visa was the Departments fault. They really do have to check for the real need to give it.
    • Muttonbird 13.5

      23 January 2022 at 9:26 pm

      Oof, hate to be you right now, alwyn.

      You have to provide a link and quote to support the, frankly crackpot, idea that the Prime Minister believes postponing her own wedding is equivalent to an expat not being able to attend a family member's funeral.

      Either that or retract.

      Best of luck!
14. Robert Guyton 14

    23 January 2022 at 8:45 pm

    BY BRYAN GOULD

    AN EASY GIG

    "So Chris Luxon (and we are assured that there is no ’t’ in either of those names) has at last bestirred himself after a long summer break – but he could hardly be said to have broken a sweat. There can be no easier gig for an opposition politician than to complain that the government has taken too long to do the right thing. We must assume that – apart from doing it sooner – he would have done and be doing nothing different.

    So, in one easy press conference, he absolves himself from having anything new or different to suggest or say. Politics must seem to be so simple, after (as he constantly reminds us) running an airline."
    • alwyn 14.1

      23 January 2022 at 9:07 pm

      Give Bryan a break. He is getting rather old and starting to ramble a bit.
      • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.1

        23 January 2022 at 9:23 pm

        …rather old and starting to ramble…
15. Joe90 15

    23 January 2022 at 9:41 pm

    Charming.

    https://twitter.com/GlennJeffrey8/status/1485038040930451456
    • The Al1en 15.1

      23 January 2022 at 9:52 pm

      Being an anti may be hereditary. I'd pick the parents were definitely anti education back in the day.

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