Open mike 23/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 23rd, 2019 - 125 comments
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125 comments on “Open mike 23/09/2019”

  1. i am looking forward to public consternation re climate-change = gloal-fucken-apocalypse..

    to come somewhere near that engendered by a spinning coloured wheel during a fucken thugby-match..

    just saying..!

    (‘would you like some bacon with that..?’..)

  2. lprent 2

    Please keep the rugby down to a background murmer. As we don't advertise, we really don't need to follow the NZ heralds need to attract advertisers.

    Kind of gross their coverage this morning in the printed edition. Was looking at it on pressreader.

  3. (trotters' latest piece is well worth the read – and explains the incrementalism of this govt – trotter makes a strong case that it's all down to roberston…

    and i hafta agree with him..)

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/20/who-will-be-fed-next-to-the-hungry-gods-of-politics/

    (excerpt..)

    'Guided by the éminence grise of Labour’s “Third Way” conservatism, Sir Michael Cullen, Robertson bound Labour in fiscal chains so tight that, in the unlikely event of a Labour-led government being formed, it would lack all freedom of movement. No matter how luminous the promises of “transformation”, without the money to turn promises into reality, the person making them was bound to end up discredited'.

    (robertson has gotta go..!..)

    • Dukeofurl 3.1

      Its a complete rant ,too silly for words.

      " it would lack all freedom of movement. No matter how luminous the promises of “transformation”, without the money to turn promises into reality"

      What promises have  been turned back by no money?

      Housing for one , not restricted by money so much ( capital spending,its not counted against a 'surplus') as the ability to build.

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        meaningful welfare-reform – as just one example..

        are you saying robertson is not a neoliberal-incrementalist – who walks faithfully in the foot-prints left by fellow third-wayer cullen..?

        that's denying the evidence before yr eyes..isn't it..?

        (and yr reference to kiwibuild could not be more apt..

        given it is a classic example of the middle-class welfare so favoured by third-wayers/neoliberal-incrementalists..

        and as for real reform for the poorest..?…

        yeah – nah – eh..?..they don't do that…)

        • Naki man 3.1.1.1

          "given it is a classic example of middle-class welfare"

          I think that is a very generous take on it, seriously who can afford a new home for their first home, i would have said more high income than middle, besides it is welfare for property developers.

    • Pat 3.2

      Mr Trotter has a new piece (and audience) that may paint a different motivation (from a different party)…whos playing who?

      "National’s success thus hinges upon its ability to generate sufficient fury among Gen-Xers to vote against both their parents and their children. They must be encouraged to call down a plague upon the houses of both the old and the young, so that, finally, a government can be elected that listens to them; delivers to them; and only to them. Simon Bridges and Paula Bennett will bend all their powers towards convincing Generation X of the old adage: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

      https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/101787/chris-trotter-looks-how-different-generations-see-and-judge-prime-minister-jacinda

    • lprent 3.3

      Its a complete rant ,too silly for words.

      Have to agree. Nothing in there that you could look at as being evidential. Plus he appears to be simply regurgitating Garner who said much the same thing recently whilst talking about the need of the parliamentary press gallery to feed off blood as a pack.

      “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

      He is a writer in love with rhetoric and he gets paid for it. I wonder what his take was at the Whalerump.

      • phillip ure 3.3.1

        surely 'the evidence' is that roberston is by definition a neoliberal-incrementalist – ?

        and he is just doing what neoliberal-incrementalists do..?

        (and the stellar example of that – is that of the 42 recommendations from welfare reform group – for urgent welfare reform – to provide some relief from the grinding poverty – 3 have been accepted by this govt..(!)

        and one of those three is an easing of the clawback provisions of any part time work undertaken by benificiaries..

        and here is the exciting bit..!..going up in tiny wee increments – benificiaries will be able to – by 2022 – to earn about another twenty bucks a week..(!)

        which we can all agree – will do sweet fuck all…

        this is what neoliberal incrementalists – like robertson – call 'welfare reform'…

        and this is why he has to go..

        (i have eyes tightly-closed/fingers-crossed  – going 'plse plse let the current scandal take him down..!'..)

        ardern should fire him..

        and i agree that trotter often spouts colourful shite..

        but not this time…

        this time he is on the money..

        • David Mac 3.3.1.1

          I think much of our government's reluctance to introduce worthwhile welfare reform is they figure that most of that sector are going to vote left regardless.

          Unlikely to happen but it leaves room for National to campaign on such a platform. This could squeeze the coalition to take action.

          If the right promised sweeping welfare reform would you vote for them Phil? 

          • phillip ure 3.3.1.1.1

            i don't feel like playing silly-hypotheticals..

            that will never happen..

            may as well discuss: 'what if we all had ponies?'..

            it ain't gonna happen..

            meanwhile…

            • David Mac 3.3.1.1.1.1

              The coalition introducing sweeping welfare reforms is also a hypothetical suggestion. A prospect you regularly entertain.

              What would you call your pony? 

              • 'The coalition introducing sweeping welfare reforms'..

                like we were promised – pre-election..?

                i am not talking 'ponies'..

                i am talking broken promises..

                and all do-able…

                • David Mac

                  When the government are questioned on this subject they typically revert to a long list of what they consider to be major steps forward. They deliver their lists with such conviction it's almost like they believe that $200 at the beginning of winter has brought sunlight flooding into 1000's of lives. $200 is of course merely a half full Countdown trolley. 

                  They do usually end their lists with something like "We do acknowledge that there is still an awful lot of work to do…." Political flim flam that indicates 'don't worry Phil, we're getting to your concerns….look at all the fabulous stuff we've already done.'

                   

                  • they have no 'list' to read out on this one –

                    just an embarrassed silence..

                    • David Mac

                      Sepuloni could spend 30 minutes informing us on how life has improved for welfare recipients and not pause for breath.

                    • she could talk about the new pot-plants in the winz offices..

                      and how the winz security-guards have been told to tone down the concentration-camp guards attitudes/rhetoric..

                      that's about it – really..

                    • David Mac

                      But that's not what is happening Phil. Here is 9 mins of Carmel back in May assuring beneficiaries that everything is in hand and that there is nothing to worry about.



                    • David Mac

                      The point I'm trying to make is: It appears they believe they are meeting your wishes Phil.

                    • no….i don't think they are that dumb..

                      they know full well that what they are doing adds up to s.f.a…

                      (and sorry – i can't watch sepuloni..

                      her cant/false-promises/defences of the indefensile – are not good for my blood temperature/blood-pressure..)

          • Janet 3.3.1.1.2

            Seems they would not have to deal with welfare if they confronted very excessive immigration rates as they said they would .



            Michael Reddell

            • Stuart Munro. 3.3.1.1.2.1

              Nice to see some confirmation of my surmises. The neo-liberal technocracy haven't been measuring their outcomes properly, so that the policies they foist on us, allegedly in our interests, based on their alleged expertise, have just been making things harder. The pretense of economic expertise expressed in policy needs to be rubbished until the mandarin class produce some objective results.

              • greywarshark

                That sounds right SM.    I have thought that a lot of what we decide and do is actually based on emotion and personal choice. It gets wrapped up in specially chosen stats and justified because someone said something in a big country or a right wing think tank or Treasury, that fount of all wisdom whose effectiveness is never judged by the actual outcomes on the ground.   It's never their fault, as they have an out for everything.

        • Dukeofurl 3.3.1.2

          perhaps you cant count

          Labour won  46 seats out of the 120 at the election after 37% of the vote.

          The Greens dropped from 14 to 6 seats

           Some of The WEAG report is part of the Confidence and Supply Agreement with the Green Party. – Just ONE paragraph of 20.

          https://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/NZLP%20%26%20GP%20C%26S%20Agreement%20FINAL.PDF

          • phillip ure 3.3.1.2.1

            i can count enough to know that the ability to earn an extra $20  a week – by 2022 – as a measure taken to provide some relief from the grinding poverty suffered by the poorest..

            adds up to a fart in a windstorm…

            how do you read that any differently..?

            mathematically speaking..?

            • phillip ure 3.3.1.2.1.1

              gotta correct an error there – that increase is by 2023 -not 2022…

              (it goes up by five bucks a yr…

              woo-fucken-hoo..!..eh….)

              • Dukeofurl

                Not able to count .

                38% of the vote  doenst  give the labour a majority to make the changes    even when its in their manifesto

                The Phil  Ure party got no votes at all

                Point out where their actions  are against the policy

                What about the $20 per person per week  increase for beneficiaries – sold as a Winter energy grant

                https://www.labour.org.nz/socialdevelopment

                • lab + grns + nz first – they all promised welfare-reform…

                  they have (all) delivered textbook incrementalism..

                  namely – done s.f.a…

                  i understand you are a full-time labour apologist – so relax – the blame is being shared..

                  and what about that twenty bucks per wk (just ended..)

                  so we are now back in the position (except for sole-parents – and goodonthem..! – i begrudge not a cent going to them – they should be getting more..)

                  we are back in the position where the key/tories' twenty dollar raise to base-rates – is the most that has been done for the poorest – in the past 30 yrs..

                  i would be really keen to hear yr take on that..'cos i reckon that fact should have all lab/grn/nz first apologists shifting uncomfortably in their seats..

                  i repeat – the tories/key did more welfare reform…than this lab/grn/nz first has done..

                  and as an apologist for none of the above – i reckon that both sucks and blows..

                  i look forward to yr convolutions…

        • The Al1en 3.3.1.3

          What you need is a far left party that's polling above 40 percent, one which carries the voters with it when offering up its non neoliberal incrementalism, on its way to getting a mandate to govern according to those policies.

          Do you have one of them, Philip?

          • phillip ure 3.3.1.3.1

            no – what i want is a labour party that actually is a labour party –

            not one that has been in the thrall of the neoliberal-incrementaists – since douglas..

            but one that looks to its' own roots..

            to know/see what needs to be done..

            and then to bloody well get on and do it..

            • The Al1en 3.3.1.3.1.1

              Right, so you want the Labour Party to become unelectable by JA sacking the finance minister and implementing policy it 1: wouldn't get into law past nz1st, and 2: hasn't got a mandate from the people for anyway.

              Er, okay, astute punditry 🙄

              • blame nz first if you like..(i'm not buying it..)

                and the/any mandate is already there..

                c.f..the pre-election promises made – and the subsequent election..

                • The Al1en

                  No, no mandate for 180 degree turns when you cobble together a three way broad church government.

                  The thing you types always fail to answer is where the votes are coming from. If as you say 90% of votes are for Neo Libs, and half are split between both major parties, the maths don't add up. You may lose some middle ground labour votes but guaranteed you won't get any back from national. That's pretty basic.

                  Also, there's a to the left of Labour Party already and they only poll 6%. If and when the numbers switch round, that would be a sign for labour to turn more left or change leader like last time the balance was skewed less in their favour.

                  But you want labour to change. Well it's clear to me that won't happen. While the electorate is polarised, it's incremental all the way in the battle for the middle ground. You can of course pay your subs, work from the inside, and do the hard yards to enact your policy direction. You could always do a momentum and take over, stick your guy in the big seat and watch him poll 20% though I won't wish you good luck.

                  • 'you types'..

                    heh..!..i'm pleading for a definition here…

                    tell us all ya know about 'you types'…

                    • The Al1en

                      You types are the ones who have no idea of how politics work in 2019, choosing to peddle daydream slogans without concept of what the voting public is willing to accept, but enough about you, let's hear you rebut and counter the points I raised.

                      I will wait.

                    • what am i not getting about 'how politics works in 2019'..

                      i'll wait..!..)

                      'daydream slogans'..no – pre-election promises made..

                      and re yr above comment..

                      at least you seem to have accepted that incrementalism as the reality..

                      to the extent you are now defending it..heh..!

                      do ya need a t-shirt..?

                      (suggested slogan..)

                      'i'm an incrementalist..! – say it loud – and say it proud..!'

                    • Incognito []

                      I thought that over-use of semi-ellipses is a sure-sign if early-onset incrementalism

                    • The Al1en

                      The numbers, Philip, the numbers. You need to address how you'll take the Neo lib voters with you when you push a full on socialist agenda on those who, according you, don't vote for it en mass.

                      That you see incremental change to the left as such a bad thing, given there's no mandate for making sweeping changes, neither being in a manifesto or campaigned upon, is sort of proof that you don't understand how modern NZ politics work.

                      It doesn't mean people who accept the reality we find ourselves in don't want change, or even change quickly, but it is reality and there's just there's no point posturing over cliches like its some sort of popularity contest. I didn't party vote labour and wanted much more left leaning policy, but without those numbers, remember those numbers phil? You have to take what you get and push for more votes next time.

                      Ill wear that tee shirt and not have a Nat government any day of the week until the polling backs my ideology and I can wear one saying 'My vote won it – and I didn't have to resort to posting like an uninformed dong on the internet'

                       

                    • Dukeofurl

                      "A  Wellington sole parent with a two year old and an income of $45,000:

                    • Sacha

                      Coalition governments do not ‘make promises’ before elections, only after the subsequent negotiations. Aint compromise a bitch.

                    • New view []

                      Sorry Sacha that’s BS. JA stole hearts and minds with Labour’s pre election blurb on how social reform was so badly needed. That’s what people remember. Not post election coalition drivel. She’s had opportunities to show she meant what she said and hasn’t shown any real backbone on anything. I’m from the right and realised we needed a fairer CGT and when she waved the white flag on that I believed she was all BS. Since then there’s been nothing happen that’s changed my mind. 

                    • @ duke of whatever..

                      i have already noted multiple times that sole parents are the only ones who have been helped..and how that is good..

                      so unsure what the fuck yr gotcha! is all about..

                      (see above – still waiting..)

                    • Sacha

                      @Newview Labour is not the whole government. Moan all you want about how that party have not secured what they promised but be clear who you are talking about.

                    • New view []

                      The voters didn’t vote for this Coalition by personally voting for each of the partners . Labour took on NZF to get power and it was JA electioneering  rhetoric That got labour into a position to do that. The voters didn’t give a toss what Winston had to say it was JA they listened to. You can believe what you like Sacha. 

                    • solkta

                      @ New view

                      So if Labour had not agreed to give Winston First as much as they did, then he would have gone with National and you would then presumably be on a right wing site right now moaning about how a National led government was not achieving everything that National had campaigned on. As a centrist party NZF will always act like a dragging handbrake on the government of the day regardless of whether it leans left or right. 

                    • New view []

                      Solkta. I’ve never liked this MMP idea but that’s another discussion. Sometimes the bigger party has to make a stand and call out the other partner if they feel strongly over proposed policy. With the CGT there was no attempt to push the point by labour. If JA had been strong and really wanted legalisation she could have taken it to a vote making the result public. It would then have been seen publicly that Winston was really the problem. That didn’t happen so did Labour really want a CGT we’ll never know. I don’t believe they were that keen. We wouldn’t want to rock the boat in case we loose votes, or upset Winston heaven forbid. It’s wishywashy BS as we’ve seen with the slow progress on other social issues. 

              • David Mac

                Ha! If we all listed the top 20 policy platforms/machinations for our ideal Government most of us would end up with a framework that only 5% of NZers would vote for.

                In my search for contentment I've resigned to operating my household as I would my ideal government. I fear wishing for much more is a recipe for discontent. 

            • mauī 3.3.1.3.1.2

              Wonderful to have your commentary on this blog phillip…

              So called 'left' parties are being smashed worldwide by the rise of the right, and the answer from the elite is just to sit tight and follow the likes of fake lefties Trudeau, Shorten or Hilary to almost certain defeat.

              • The Al1en

                Do you want to walk through that one?

                So called left parties are being smashed by the right. Does that mean if they had real left leaders instead, the people who deserted the fake left leaders and voted right, wouldn't vote right anymore but go back to the left?

                Thats an interesting, if not implausible logic jump.

                • mauī

                  All the momentum was with Sanders and Corbyn during the previous US and UK elections.

                  If they weren't hobbled by their own parties undermining them and were able to be unleashed onto the public, we would have gained one left government today, probably two. 

                  • The Al1en

                    So it would be like someone saying Jacinda isn't left enough so I'm gonna vote for Bridges. Yeah, makes sense. lol

                    As for Corbyn, he got 40% against May, and yet with no challenges from within since, apart from those who left to form change or whatever it’s called, he’s plunged to the low 20s. Go figure.

                    • The Al1en

                      Up until now that is, at the party conference, where grassroots activists are pushing against Corbyn's fence sitting, wanting an unambiguous Remain stance.

                      Trying to shaft the deputy leader won't help win over the majority remainers in the party, either.

                    • mauī

                      Was that a comparison of two political phenoms with the Bridge? Ok… Probably best if I leave you to talk about the failure of Corbyn post election. You seem very good at that…

              • chrs maui..

                i can't believe how – in just political-realities terms – they seem unable to see what you talk about..

                'what do we want..?'

                'incrementalism'..

                'when do we want it..?'

                'at some as yet undefined time in the future..!'

                meanwhile the right rises – and the planet fucken boils..

                well done..!..einsteins…!

            • sumsuch 3.3.1.3.1.3

              This last election was luck, a talking pulpit, but these pricks won't talk. High regards , Ure.

        • Kevin 3.3.1.4

          Neoliberal incrementalist. Isn't that  really just a more palatable name for conservatism?

          • phillip ure 3.3.1.4.1

            pretty much…

            (tho' adherents to neoliberalism don't like talking about it..and don't usually like being identified as such..

            it is the ideology that dares not say its' name..)

        • Ed1 3.3.1.5

          How soon some forget. Labour made some promises before the last election. They did involve more spending than National, but they also included scrapping National's tax cuts that would have applied from April 2018. National campaigned on putting more money into everyone's pockets through cutting tax. Who wouldn't like a bit more money in their pockets each payday?  But National lied about what they would have to do as a result of their tax cuts – they would further reduce services from government, but they never admitted to that – they called their cuts efficiency savings. 

          In order to get votes, Labour promised limits on borrowing, not to introduce new taxes or increase taxes until after a report had been issued (and after the next election) – and coalition negotiations required some funding for Green and NZ First priorities. 

          Now you are wanting a large increase in spending for one sector. Lets be clear, I am sure many Labour supporters would like spending on benefits to increase now, but National is not the only bullshitter, philip ure – any major change in public spending will have implications for either tax raising or other spending,  with other consequential changes to employment, overall borrowing, inflation, etc. 

          So are you simply calling for our current government to be branded liars, or do you have proposals for how to raise the money your spending increases would need? Would you cut spending on hospitals and Pharmac? Would you renege on pay settlements with nurses and teachers? 

          So where does the philip ure party sit? Responsible government that understands that more spending in one area needs changes in another area? Or a liar party that pretends cutting taxes can be matched by "efficiency gains" without cutting services? Be responsible, philip, and give us the other side of your wish-list – "Show us the Money!"

           

           

          • phillip ure 3.3.1.5.1

            '"Show us the Money!"..'

            easy..!

            higher taxes on the richest – a land-tax on the land-bankers..

            a financial transaction tax..

            (how's that for starters….?..)

            • phillip ure 3.3.1.5.1.1

              and at the other end – make the first 20 grand of income tax-free…

              that would end the kafkaesque situation of the poorest being taxed on the miserly sums they are given..and they would get that money instead..

              how am i going so far..?

              • Ed1

                Consistent in ignoring the reality that campaign promises cannot be totally ignored. Honesty and integrity are valuable attributes in gaining votes – or are you happy to see Labour in opposition again so soon?

                • did you miss/not hear the 'transformational welfare-reform' we were promised..

                  i repeat – all i am asking of those three parties – is that they do what they promised to do..

                  that they make good on those pre-election promises they all made..

                  that is all i am asking of them – in that area of policy..

            • Jimmy 3.3.1.5.1.2

              Well overdue for moving the tax brackets.

              Earn over $48k and you pay 30% tax on the bit over $48k….thats way too much tax.

              Earn over $70k and pay 33% on that. 

              I reckon you should pay 30% on income over $70k and 33% on income over $100k. Then have another tax bracket say 39% for income over $150k and 45% for income over $200k

          • Dukeofurl 3.3.1.5.2

            https://www.labour.org.nz/familiespackage

            Its a broad based scheme

            • Boost Working for Families to all those who currently receive it and extend it to 30,000 more families, in addition to the Working for Families changes announced in Budget 2017.
            • Introduce a Best Start payment to help families with costs in a child’s early years.
            • Introduce a Winter Energy Payment for people receiving superannuation or a main benefit. 
            • Reinstate the Independent Earners’ Tax Credit.
            • Implement the Accommodation Supplement increases announced in Budget 2017.
            • Introduce 26 weeks paid parental leave to ensure that families are provided with vital support at a crucial stage in their children’s lives.

             

             

            • Increase the Family Tax Credit base rate for the eldest child to $5,878. This is currently $5,303 for eldest children aged 16-18 and $4,822 for eldest children aged 0-15 (due to be increased to $5,303 according to Budget 2017). 
            • Adopt the Budget 2017 changes to the Family Tax Credit base rate for subsequent children and new abatement rate.
            • Raise the abatement threshold for Working for Families to $42,700, currently $36,350 (due to be cut to $35,000 according to Budget 2017).

             

            All this sort of talk goes way over Phils head. As  hes doesnt support a family or  know or care about this as it wont end up in HIS pocket
            "

            • Introduce a Best Start payment of $60 a week for each child in the first year after Paid Parental Leave ends, and for low to middle income families up to age three.

            How about this one

            A Wellington sole parent with a two year old and an income of $45,000:

            • With Labour, this family gets $107 more a week (plus up to $55 in Accommodation Supplement)

            Fess up Phil ,  as its mostly about those with young kids, you are missing out and beating the drum here about your empty pockets

            • phillip ure 3.3.1.5.2.1

              all that you write about is not for the poorest..

              it is just more for the 'deserving=families' – as defined by clark..

              the 'undeserving' – also as defined by clark – are still being left to rot..

              and i have raised my children – so you can just fuck off with that ad-hom..

              and no – i am not arguing for my 'empty-pockets'..

              once again – you can just fuck off with that one too..

    • tc 3.4

      Another shill singing for his supper. These tame 'left' column fillers seem to like to impress their fellow political anoraks and upset the leftys who think their opinion matters.

      Chris who ? from the echo chamber of nz political repeaters.

      • phillip ure 3.4.1

        @ tc..

        'These tame 'left' column fillers seem to like to impress their fellow political anoraks and upset the leftys who think their opinion matters.'

        um..!..i have read the above sentence four times – and i cannot understand whatever it is you are trying to say..

        would you mind translating for me..?

        • tc 3.4.1.1

          Rhetoric to entertain the masses and impress each other (his fellow soapbox holders like hoots etc) whilst not upsetting his paymasters i.e. the media owners.

          Trotter makes his living saying SFA but still manages to upset people who think he should be saying and doing more in the echo chamber of the NZ media.

          Chris who ? 

        • sumsuch 3.4.1.2

          Reading Marilyn Waring's record of her 9 years under Muldoon he refused to reform the economy at the expense of the poorest. Unlike the last 35 years.

    • JohnP 3.5

      I see we're still on the remarkably dense and blind view that whatever Labour's failing to be transformational in Government is down to everyone who isn't Jacinda, in this case it's Robertson's fault.

      The Peasants Revolt failed because Wat Tyler and the rebels believed the King was actually pure of heart and on their side, but was misled by his 'wicked' advisors. 

      Same as it ever was.

      • phillip ure 3.5.1

        hmm!! – i wonder if robertson has thought of playing the wat tyler/peasants' revolt card yet..?

        maybe he is saving it for when things get gnarly for him..?

        (points tho' for the historical-reach/shout-out in yr comment..)

        • Poission 3.5.1.1

          The historical reach is important. it shows for example that rigorous debate(and discourse) were important parts of a vigorous democracy.

          Isocrates in Areopagiticus some 25 centuries ago.

          The less well-to-do among the citizens were so far from envying those of greater means that they were as solicitous for the great estates as for their own, considering that the prosperity of the rich was a guarantee of their own well-being. Those who possessed wealth, on the other hand, did not look down upon those in humbler circumstances, but, regarding poverty among their fellow-citizens as their own disgrace, came to the rescue of the distresses of the poor, handing over lands to some at moderate rentals, sending out some to engage in commerce, and furnishing means to others to enter upon various occupations;

          for they had no fear that they might suffer one of two things—that they might lose their whole investment or recover, after much trouble, only a mere fraction of their venture; on the contrary, they felt as secure about the money which was lent out as about that which was stored in their own coffers. For they saw that in cases of contract the judges were not in the habit of indulging their sense of equity1 but were strictly faithful to the laws;

          and that they did not in trying others seek to make it safe for themselves to disobey the law,1 but were indeed more severe on defaulters than were the injured themselves, since they believed that those who break down confidence in contracts do a greater injury to the poor than to the rich; for if the rich were to stop lending, they would be deprived of only a slight revenue, whereas if the poor should lack the help of their supporters they would be reduced to desperate straits.

          And so because of this confidence no one tried to conceal his wealth1 nor hesitated to lend it out, but, on the contrary, the wealthy were better pleased to see men borrowing money than paying it back; for they thus experienced the double satisfaction—which should appeal to all right-minded men—of helping their fellow-citizens and at the same time making their own property productive for themselves. In fine, the result of their dealing honorably with each other was that the ownership of property was secured to those to whom it rightfully belonged, while the enjoyment of property was shared by all the citizens who needed it.

          http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0144%3Aspeech%3D7%3Asection%3D32

    • Incognito 3.6

      I thought Trotter’s was a lovely story but not quite at the epic level of Homer, for example. I think he could make a decent living turning it into an audiobook for budding ballet choreographers or as storyteller on a late-night radio show for insomniacs. However, it didn’t pass the mustard as political commentary from a wannabe political historian although I did enjoy his joyous verbosity and I might apply it to spice up my own rants too with more couleur locale and Wayang-like depictions of key political players for more dramatic impact.

      It wasn’t satire, was it?

      • phillip ure 3.6.1

        nah..!..it wasn't satire..

        and i agree that trotter loves the sound of his own voice a bit more than he should..

        but that doesn't discount the validity of what he says here..

        instead of a stream of ad homs directed at him..

        why don't you unpack what he says/demonstrate to us readers how his analysis is incorrect/faulty..?

        'cos i can't see how you could – but surprise me…

        • Incognito 3.6.1.1

          I have already ‘unpacked’ it, but you missed it because you were not reading between the lines.

          Trotter’s opinion piece shows complete disregard for the (political) context, which to me suggests it was not political commentary but a raconteurial rant.

          I know somebody else who “loves the sound of his own voice a bit more than he should” and thinks that his opinion has more validity than the opinions of others..

  4. Sanctuary 4

    I mentioned in the work kitchen the other day to the resident pro-China migrant guy that a good friend of mine had gone back to Hong Kong to take part in the democracy protests. He spent a little while trying to wheedle the name of this person out me, then I went back to my desk and forgot about it.

    Later that afternoon, he came and sat next to me and invited me along to some dinners and meeting the various pro-Beijing front organisations in Auckland run in order to discuss China. I politely declined. But while he is a pleasant enough fellow, this guy has lived here for over ten years and yet he is basically a low rent volunteer spy for Beijing. He will never owe his loyalty to NZ. 

    And then this today from newsroom.co.nz – 

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/09/23/819874/chinese-nz-herald-under-supervision-and-control-of-chinese-state

    And when you see long term Sinophiles and insightful friends of China like this guy bailing out as fast they can, you wonder when will our politicians ever wake up, and how donkey deep is the National party with the authoritarian butchers of Beijing? 

  5. cleangreen 5

    This latest 'Australian News corp' article on the climate emergency will have all the Climate deniers up in arms too.

    https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/fiveyear-period-ending-2019-set-to-be-hottest-on-record/news-story/895e9c2239979888a2089a1311976c9f

    Latest 23/9/19 ‘Australian newscorp’
    (Quote) “Five-year period ending 2019 set to be hottest on record. A few days after kids across the globe marched in support of environmental issues, the UN has released a new report on the current state of the planet, and it’s not pretty reading.” (un-quote)

  6. joe90 6

    They said the world was threatened by WMDs, too.

    /

     

    • aom 6.1

      The US response seems more like a face-saving PR exercise. Pretty embarrassing  that the billions spent by Saudi Arabia on American weaponry was out-gunned by low cost drones launched by a poorly resourced rebel outfit from one of the most poverty stricken places on earth.

      • Dukeofurl 6.1.1

        Not poorly resourced , they seemed to have  a large portion of the Yemen military forces at the start of civil war.. this doesnt sound like they are all that deficient 

        "over 400 Houthi ballistic and cruise missile launches, drone strikes, and naval attacks since June 2015"

    • Dukeofurl 6.2

      An 'ally and friend' ( which was the origin of the 9/11 attackers) who is waging war on its tiny neighbour  with  US  supplied planes and bombs.

      So its OK for US to provide military supplies but not OK for Iran to do so.

      Its nothing new really – except  when it involves the mother lode -oil.

      "FDD’s Long War Journal has tracked and mapped over 400 Houthi ballistic and cruise missile launches, drone strikes, and naval attacks since June 2015. For more information, see the three-part series: Houthi missiles,dronesnaval attacks.]"

      They have been missile attacks on US Navy ships, ballistic missiles against Saudi airports

      "Saudi officials reported late last year that over 200 ballistic missiles have been fired towards its territory."

      The US is well known for launching long range drone strikes against various countries Pakistan, Yemen  Somalia

  7. Pat 7

    How much do we value democratic freedom and the 4th estates role within it?

    "Experts have identified the Chinese New Zealand Herald website as a propaganda outlet for the government of China.

    However, the news outlet's co-owner, NZME, says the Chinese NZ Herald is not beholden to China’s media guidelines and censorship requirements.

    An investigation by Newsroom, with the help of China propaganda experts, found the news organisation's operational structure, and its Chinese state internet and security permits, amounted to the news site coming under the supervision and control of various Chinese Communist Party (CCP) authorities."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/09/23/819874/chinese-nz-herald-under-supervision-and-control-of-chinese-state

  8. greywarshark 8

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/399378/bullying-in-the-police-victim-asked-if-she-had-period-troubles

    How very retro.   Back to the future from the 1970's mindset.   Are we regressing or didn't we ever progress at all?

  9. greywarshark 9

    Where do you look for clues when you are puzzled about behaviour that seems irrational for the good of the country – Money (as cartoon on my book Dilbert and the way of the Weasel says, where he stands by a sign attracting zombies towards> 'Unattended Piles of Money')!

    Revealed: Arron Banks puts controversial diamond mine up for sale
    The millionaire businessman Arron Banks, who spent £8m on the Brexit campaign, has put a controversial South African diamond mine on the market. Mr Banks confirmed to Channel 4 News that the Newlands mine in Barkly West, Northern Cape province is up for sale for ZAR10m – just over £500,000. In a statement Mr Banks told…

    and further on Brexit :

    London Mayor Sadiq Khan calls for Labour MPs to commit to stopping Brexit amidst party civil war    The infighting at the top of the party has continued following yesterday’s move to unseat Deputy Leader Tom Watson. Today Jeremy Corbyn was forced to defend reported allegations from a senior advisor that his team lacked ‘professionalism, competence and human decency’. Jon Snow spoke to London mayor Sadiq Khan, who today made a direct appeal…

    https://www.channel4.com/news/   (They have a zingy pile of news items.)

    This one is amazing.  German villages bulldozed to make space for coal mine    Europe’s biggest economy, Germany, has promised to phase out coal by 2038 in order to meet climate change commitments. Yet it is expanding one of its biggest open cast mines, which is 48 square kilometres in size. The expansion will demolish five villages in the process, but the coal company responsible says it is not…

  10. Sacha 10

    How come that 'averagekiwi' thing is in the Feeds? Sounds alarmingly similar to Kiwibog.

  11. marty mars 11

    sickening and real – make sure your people are safe, ask them, don't just assume they are

    When you're strangled, it takes just 10 seconds to lose consciousness. At 15 seconds you lose control of your bladder. Within two minutes … death.

    That's the timeline of strangulation, an offence so closely linked to deaths from domestic violence that if someone puts their hands around your neck and squeezes, you are seven times more likely to go on to die, because people who get angry enough to strangle are more likely to do it again and at some point they might get too angry to release their grip.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018713972/getting-tough-how-new-zealand-could-stop-domestic-violence

  12. Ad 12

    Ardern is doing the keynote speech at the UN Climate change summit tomorrow.

    And all-gases bill debated shortly. Not easy optics.

    I wish her well 

  13. Have a reply in moderation. Was it the d word that rhymes with Kong?

    Sorry about that.

  14. aom 14

    What, no media at the Ardern/Trump meeting? Someone must be scared of being toweled  by relative youth, gender, empathy and intellect. No p**sy grabbing this time!

    • greywarshark 14.1

      You underestimate Trump I think.   If he wants to do something he does it, conventions no respect for, respect no convention of.

      • greywarshark 14.1.1

        Concerning Trump and our brave young PM riding forth Quixote-like, if you can get to see today's stuff with  Jeff Bell's cartoon on the hairpiece and our  PM, (with apologies to Lewis Carroll) I think you'll find it good.

    • Dukeofurl 14.2

      What, no media at the Ardern/Trump meeting? Someone must be scared of being toweled  by relative youth, gender, empathy and intellect. No p**sy grabbing this time!

      You are confused about  what is a meeting with  discussions and the photo ops which precede it.

  15. joe90 15

    Wouldn't hold my breath but Netanyahu could be out.

    • greywarshark 15.1

      Interesting how my computer behaves (twitter etc as previously discussed). Your full comment came up, flashed, and then faded back into the bushes.

      But no matter, your one sentence above is spell-binding, I hope anyway.

  16. I've got a serious question for Mr Ure – it could either amuse you, or drive you into a severe depression, the like of which I'm not sure there's a cure for – even IF there was something synthetic to ease the symptoms:

    Did you ever come across Glenda H in your travels in the past? There's a billboard or two around Mt Victoria (one of which I saw a Toy Boi weilding a hammer with).

    I just received my voting papers and discovered it's standing for local gummint, as is its ….. [for the sake of civility] ….. followers.

    My first thought was that it’s taking the piss – but it (and all)'re actually serious!!!
    I’ll know when it’s time to leave town if ever that got a foothold

     

  17. marty mars 17

    bigotry alive and well – and these numbnuts supposedly run the place lol

    While most of the councillors were agreeable to the idea of being more inclusive, councillor Steve Bielski was horrified.

    He said he would not accept Muslims or any non-Christians praying at council because they believed in different gods.

    …Manawatū District Council Mayor Helen Worboys said Mr Bielski would not be reprimanded for his comments.

    She said the councillors have had similar animated discussions about the Māori wards.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/rnz/councillor-stands-anti-muslim-sentiments

     

  18. A 18

    Lets be grateful he wasn't born in NZ.  Sympathy for the victims.

     

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12270125

  19. greywarshark 19

    Announcement:  Come in No.1 to 150,000, your holiday with Thomas Cook is over.  Did you think this was a Butlins holiday camp?   Time's up you suckers.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-travel-firm-thomas-cook-collapses/

  20. Eco maori 20

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    I think that it's haters who use tech platforms to pedal there hate content but the tech companies have to try and stop them using their platforms. 

    Kia Kaha Greta that is the correct measage to give to the people who are leading the Papatuanuku to our destruction. I agree chasing economic growth over the wellbeing of our future environment has to change to chasing sustainability and countrys being rewarded for this behaviour. 

    I agree its good to change the school funding system to include economic back ground and other factors to help our tamariki that need help the most that is looking after our future. 

    For some reason I always get restricted phone calls can you guess who is making them you would be correct. 

    Thomas Cook collapse  has stranded heaps of people on holiday let hope not to many people are left in a mess because of that. 

    The people of the Manuatu will be wrapped to have a new route for their main road. I have not been on that road in decades. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

  21. Eco maori 21

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    That's is what needs to happen Winston including Farmer in the emissions trading skeem by 2025. If Our Farmers were not included in the Emissions skeem what phenomenon will encourage Our farmers to reduce there carbon footprint.

    I tau toko Te tangata whenua who are championing to stop seabed mineing. 

    I Rotorua has a housing shortage itcs not on that people have to live under a bridge most of our cities have this problem to.

    Eco Maori tau toko online voting let's not wait to long for this great initiative. It will make the process more efficient and will bring in more voters..

    A 3. Month payed course teaching Wahine life skills teaching them how to grow Kai and encouraging Te Wahine to give up drugs is cool

    Ka kite Ano 

  22. Eco maori 22

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    simon you know that you would have been kissing trumps ass say yes sir no sir

    Its awesome to see heaps more people seeing reality about OUR Global Warming Papatuanuku. The champions of Our futures Climate have done A awesome job the Phenomenon is a unstoppable force now Kia Kaha to you ALL.

    That's Commission of enquiries into state staff abuseing people looks like a choreography set up.

    That's is sad seeing people praying on our inenecint elderly using phone calls and scamming them out of their money. 

    Duncan Greta has got The Am Show attention Greta has the Papatuanuku attention on Our Futures Environment NOW if you are not on board of Our WAKA looking after our futures environment you will be washed into Our History Books. 

    You know that was hard I haven't seen anyone get it correct. 

    Using cloth nappies will save you heaps of putea and our environment. I would not trust others picking them up and cleaning them as babies skins are quite sensitive we used a hygiene products that are designed for sensitive skins. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

     

     

  23. Eco maori 23

    We can have low or no carbon footprint larger passengers plane travellers. We just need to invest the time and putea into the new goals of low carbon flights. Solar and batteries are increasingly becoming more efficient made bio fuel for take of and landing and solar and batteries for gliding around Papatuanuku. 

    This Solar-Powered Plane Can Circle the Globe With No Pollution | That’s Amazing

    Some dreams are so fantastic, it takes an unprecedented bid for adventure and glory to see them blossom to fruition. Bertrand Piccard and André Borschberg, captivated by the spirit of great expeditions of the past, partnered to make the first flight across the world in a solar-powered plane that produced no pollution. Storing solar energy in batteries, the Solar Impulse is capable of staying aloft indefinitely. However, as Piccard and Borschberg learned, this didn't make the adventure easy—or require any less intrepid heroism from the co-pilots. Ka kite Ano 

  24. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    Lioyd their is a big shift happening for the better Ma Te Wa.

    A bottle return machine /system is needed to protect our environment from the waste they end up becoming.

    Ingrid I hope that it doesn't hale to much in my neck of the woods it could damage our solar system. 

    I say that Manuka Honey should be a Aotearoa only brand they can call there's Tea tree honey. 

    Ka kite Ano 

  25. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Tauranga Tangata Whenua you would think that the Tauranga council should have a duty to fix some of the wrongs of the past. The whenua is not billions like Tangata Whenua have lost. If they have a humane thought then they will give that whenua to Mana whenua.

    That's cool in Tamiki Makaurau the council are putting system in place to get more Maori to vote.

    The new app teaching practical life skills is a good idea to teach Rangatahi skills in how putea works and other skills that are needed to thrive in Aotearoa society. 

    I think it's not acceptable that Iwi data is not available for Tangata Whenua to use to plan for our Mokopuna future. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

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    1 week ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
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    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
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    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
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    1 week ago
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    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
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    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
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    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
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    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
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    1 week ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
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    1 week ago
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
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  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
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    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
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  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
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    1 week ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
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  • Are GNUs extinct?
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  • Labour chickens out again
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
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    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
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    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
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    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
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    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • 2018 – Submission to the NZ Government Tax Working Group
    Read our submission here ...
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  • Guardian: Poll shows DISASTER for Corbyn and the End of Times
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  • How prostitution became the world’s most modern profession
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    2 weeks ago
  • Clever legal fellow on Scottish challenge to Brexit
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  • An Open Letter From Closed Minds.
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    2 weeks ago

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    31 mins ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
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  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
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  • More progress for women and we can do more
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  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
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    19 hours ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
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    23 hours ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
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  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
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    1 day ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
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    1 day ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
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  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
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    1 day ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
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  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
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  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
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  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
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  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
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  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
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  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
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  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
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  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
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  • CTU speech – DPM
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    3 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
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  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
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    3 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
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    3 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
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    3 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
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    4 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
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    4 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
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    5 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
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    6 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
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    7 days ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
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    7 days ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Further details of Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall visit to New Zealand
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    1 week ago
  • O’Connor in Thailand to push for RCEP deal
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • Young Pacific people can access earning and learning opportunities in Hawke’s Bay, Otago and South...
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago