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Open mike 24/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 24th, 2022 - 147 comments
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147 comments on “Open mike 24/06/2022 ”

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  1. barry 1
    24 June 2022 at 8:23 am

    How to help people facing poverty?

    This is a good read about scientific studies.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01679-y

    • Jenny how to get there 1.1
      27 June 2022 at 6:55 am

      Thanks for this Barry.

      The scientific evidence is clear, reducing inequality with cash injections to the most disadvantaged gives them the resources they need to escape poverty benefiting and enriching the whole of society.

      Where does the cash come?

      It comes from government which gains its income from taxes on the more well off.

      The political representatives of the more well off, like National and ACT are against taxing the well off for any sort of social programs even if those programs would benefit the whole of society. And so will campaign to oppose them.

      Fundamental to this campaign is the promotion of the idea, that the poor are indigent, irresponsible, stupid and lazy, and responsible for their own distress and powerlessness.
      Relentlessly the representatives of the rich will push the idea, that taxing the well off to fund social programs will only see the less well off spend more on drugs and booze and gambling and other social evils.
      Again and again studies like this prove the opposite. That given the resources the poor will use them raise themselves and their families out of poverty.

      There is more than one way that society's wealth can be distributed more equitably, While the benefits of governments doing this directly is backed by studies like this.

      Governments are not the only agencies that have the power to redistribue the wealth of society more equitably. More traditionally, trade unions have played this role.

      I am reminded here of the rise of South Korea to become the economic power house that it is today. This transformation began with the rise of powerful trade unions that led successful struggles to wrest more of that society's wealth for the working people. The increase in well being of the working population led to increases in productivity, the continuing rise in incomes and resources at the bottom of South Korean society led to higher achievement levels for South Korean children in schools leading to more children of working families to be more able to move up to receive the advantages of higher education. The struggle of the trade union movement in South Korea was also linked to the struggle for more democracy and openness in South Koran society.

      These hard won advances were fought every step of the way. As will the proven benfits of government led redistribution will be too.

    • Jenny how to get there 1.2
      27 June 2022 at 9:50 am
      • NEWS FEATURE
      • 22 June 2022

      These experiments could lift millions out of dire poverty

      Randomized trials are changing the way governments and aid organizations study — and deliver — measures to reduce inequality and poverty.

      In 2012, the government of Niger began giving some of its poorest citizens free money. Over the next few years, around 100,000 participating households received 24 monthly payments of roughly US$16 — which more than doubled their typical spending power.

      The programme was based on decades of evidence from carefully controlled trials, suggesting that simple cash infusions can transform lives…..

      https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01679-y

      Everything is connected

      On Saturday Mickysavage, posted in praise of UK union leader Mick Lynch.

      Attached to the bottom of his post, Mickysavage added the Green Day rendition of John Lennon's song 'Working Class Hero'.

      The Green Day backing video features refugees from tyrannies where campaigns for social justice and against extreme inequality are suppressed with massive violence and oppression. Local ruling elites of these countries, quick to suppress any sort of trade union or democratic activity, are often supported and backed, (and also armed with military aid), by Western powers that benefit from the neo-colonial oppression, exploitation and looting of these countries in an international web of binding business contracts, trade deals and political and military partnership links.

      What reminded me of your comment, Barry, and the link you provided to proven studies of how to relieve poverty, was the first line sung by Green Day,

      "As soon as you're born, they make you feel small
      By giving you nothing instead of it all"

      Despite the proven success of the trials in relieving poverty by providing resources and funds to poor people, these trials will never be rolled out as government programs. The international links between the local ruling elites and the ruling elites in the West who in partnership also benefit from the inequality, poverty and low incomes in these countries, (possibly even more than the local elites), will simply not allow it.

      It will take a hard fought campaign against these vested interests, the same for the struggle of the RMTU workers, led my Mick Lynch.

      Everything is connected.

    • Jenny how to get there 2.1
      24 June 2022 at 4:49 pm

      Royal Navy could escort grain ships through Odesa blockade

      Tuesday May 24 2022, 12.15pm BST

      Britain is in discussion with allies about sending warships to the Black Sea to protect freighters carrying Ukrainian grain. A “coalition of the willing” would aim to break Russia’s blockade in weeks by providing a “protective corridor” from Odesa through the Bosphorus….

      …..the coalition could include some Nato countries and other countries reliant on the grain.

      It is thought that Egypt, which has been hit hard by the wheat shortage, might be willing to take part….

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/royal-navy-could-escortgrain-ships-through-odesa-blockade-6cdp626xq#:~:text=Britain%20is%20in%20discussion%20with,protect%20freighters%20carry

      While the US hegemon might regard the Pacific region as a US Lake.
      (on a smaller scale), Russia regards the Black Sea as a Russian lake,

      Moscow claims it sees ‘true’ plans behind Ukrainian grain coalition

      RT – 23 Jun, 2022 13:16

      Russia’s foreign minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

      “The attempts to organize some kind of international coalition for the implementation of these procedures are aimed solely at interfering in the Black Sea region under the auspices of the UN. And we see this quite clearly,”

      UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss on Thursday also addressed the issue of helping Ukrainian grain leave the ports, saying that it would require “an international effort.”

      https://www.rt.com/news/557686-ukraine-grain-lavrov-truss/

    • Jenny how to get there 2.2
      26 June 2022 at 4:03 am

      Both war and climate change have the same drivers.
      It follows, that if we can't stop the war, We can't stop climate change.

      Stopping war, is stopping climate change.

      …..Austria has already had to restart a mothballed power plant running on coal (which is much dirtier as a fuel than gas). Germany is also firing up its coal generators. That’s bitter for a country that had instead been planning to exit coal power altogether. It’s especially wrenching for the Greens, who are running the combined energy and commerce ministry and have to implement this policy U-turn.

      https://theprint.in/opinion/for-decades-putin-made-europe-dependent-on-russia-now-he-is-exploiting-those-weaknesses/1010193/

      Russian warlord Putin gloats at Europe's dependence on Russian fossil fuel supplies while mocking the urgent need to turn toward renewables. A turn which would undermine Europe's (and the world's), dependence on fossil fuels, and Putin's ability to use this dependence as a weapon.

      RT 17 Jun, 2022 18:20

      HomeRussia & FSU

      Russian leader has buried the old world order and outlined his view on Russia’s and the world’s future, in a key address

      …..“blindly believing in renewable sources” and abandoning long-term natural gas contracts with Russia led to the spike in energy prices last year, according to the Russian leader.

      https://www.rt.com/russia/557346-putin-spief-speech-takeaways/?

  3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3
    24 June 2022 at 9:02 am

    When asked why Mr Ross was allowed to run for election in Botany last year given the earlier complaint about his behaviour, Mr Goodfellow said the matter was simple.

    "It was a matter that was raised by a couple of people and was dealt with – and actually to the satisfaction of the parties," he said.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/369246/national-defends-handling-of-woman-s-complaint-against-jami-lee-ross

    At the time of the agreement Ross was the senior whip for the National Party and one of their best fundraisers. He went on to be promoted to the front bench after serving as Bridges' "numbers man" during the leadership election.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107956180/national-party-president-peter-goodfellow-signed-confidentiality-agreement-with-woman

    Yeah….not hush money at ALL. JLR allgood… until he wasn’t. Dirty politics for sure

  4. Red Blooded One 4
    24 June 2022 at 9:20 am

    Happy Matariki to everyone. I have a question about the Commercialisation of the celebration. I know it has been discussed recently but, in my opinion, posed by bad faith actors on this site. Am watching the TVNZ Matariki Special and in ad breaks they are advertising a "Give me a Clue Matariki Special" If they can advertise that, why can't other commercial identities use Matariki in their advertising. I'm just asking about consistency. Cheers.

    • Molly 4.1
      24 June 2022 at 9:45 am

      Only really caught up on yesterday's conversation later in the day.

      I don't really understand the impulse to determine how others view this holiday, and pre-determine what significance it holds for all.

      The Christians I know celebrate Christmas in both the commercialised cultural way, and with attendant church activities and sermons. They neither demand the same from others, or begrudge those that hold different faiths from not recognising the religious component.

      I don't know any monarchists that have a particular form of celebration on Queen's Birthday, or unionists that hold particular celebrations on Labour Day. If they do, I've heard nothing from them about how everyone celebrated the same.

      Isn't the point of any state holiday is a day to do what you wish, with those you want to share it with?

      In response to any references to the commercialisation of a Māori holiday. Well, I view it as a holiday named in recognition of a Māori calendar event, which has been allotted in a multicultural society. The recognition and assignment of that name is enough.

      An assumed world view about all Māori is not helpful.

      Although, I choose to be a feminist, I have differing ideas about feminism than other feminists, and often disagree on feminism. As a Māori, I recognise that the diversity of individuals and their thoughts and perspectives – as with non-Māori – do not often align. As with other demographics, even if there is agreement on a topic, there remains diverse views on both outcomes and implementation.

      In this region, Māori were the prime traders and were exporting produce to England, in the mid-late 1800's. To assume that they would be against trading on a holiday (if the concept of national holiday was understood) is just that… an assumption.

      If to be treated and accepted equally is the goal, the the use of Matariki in advertising is an indicator.

      • Sabine 4.1.1
        24 June 2022 at 10:09 am

        Funny thing about this all is that i was asked by Maori – last year and this year – to make "Matariki Stars" for them to give away to children in foster care and children in school.

        Should i have refused? Lol, of course not. As a native Caucasian /nonmale/nontrans/formerly known as woman person thingy from a country were we happily invent food to eat for special holidays it was a pleasure for me to make these chocolate stars and i will do them again last year.

        Manawatia a Matariki to you Molly. My the ‘new’ year bring you many blessing and happiness.

        • weka 4.1.1.1
          24 June 2022 at 10:55 am

          why shouldn't you make stars? This has nothing to do with the commercialisation argument.

          • Sabine 4.1.1.1.1
            24 June 2022 at 11:28 am

            You could call it commercialisation as it is literally the same as making Easter Bunnies for Easter or Santas for Christmas. It is a product made for sale for that particular day. It just depends on which step of the ideological purity ladder one stands.

            To me any holiday needs a special food that you can only get that one day or few days during which the festival/holiday is feted. It makes it a celebration. But i am roman catholic and grew up with pretend drinking of blood and eating of flesh of Christ and thus have no issue with symbolism in food attached to ones culture. Food is part of celebrations.

            • weka 4.1.1.1.1.1
              24 June 2022 at 11:40 am

              you were paid to make the stars?

              • Sabine …
                24 June 2022 at 12:22 pm

                Absolutely, without pay I don't work. I am too poor to not charge, and for what its worth i was not expected to make these for free either.

                • weka …
                  24 June 2022 at 12:25 pm

                  I thought it was a community thing.

                  I don't have a problem with people being paid, and I don't think this is commercialisation in this context either. Commercialisation would be a business making up some product to sell to take advantage of Matariki and putting on a big sale.

                  • Sabine …
                    24 June 2022 at 12:39 pm

                    I view both to some extend as 'commercialisation, but i don't understand why we are ok with boxing day sales, Easter sales, Queens birthday sales but suddenly draw the line at this holiday. Either we do or we don't. Re- Community thing, making these stars cost money, and i no longer – like many other small businesses my size that used to support various charities fully and for free- can no longer afford to support these charities without at least charging for cost of making hte products that they would like to get from us. Premises, lisencing, material, etc all that costs money.

                    In fact i am open and working today. Just as i would do on any other holiday. Too poor to not work. 🙂

                    • weka …
                      24 June 2022 at 12:46 pm

                      Boxing Day sales are evil, and a direct result of the whole global system that is killing the planet, enforcing slave labour in poor countries, and undermining worker rights in places like NZ.

                      I fully support shops to be closed on those days other than essentials.

                      Like I said, no problem with you making the stars as part of your business, it just wasn't apparent in the first comment where you talked about the stars being given away and I assumed it was a community thing.

                    • weka …
                      24 June 2022 at 12:48 pm

                      and yes, yes, I understand poor people need sales to be able to buy stuff. However politically, we still have to argue against neoliberalism and for a better system. Otherwise we're just saying sorry underclass, this is the way it is, adapt if you can or die or whatever.

                  • Incognito …
                    24 June 2022 at 1:21 pm

                    A Big Sale that happens to coincide with a public holiday when many flock to the shops & malls to kill time wandering with their heads bent down focussed on the little screens they hold in their hands and spend money to re-fill their materialistic needs. Viva la Commerce!

                    • weka …
                      24 June 2022 at 3:14 pm

                      thanks for that. I was starting to wonder if I'd wandered into a parallel lw universe where consumerism was a desired god.

                    • Incognito []
                      24 June 2022 at 3:31 pm

                      These neoliberal attitudes are almost impossible to shake. They have become normalised (as in normative), legalised & regulated, and embedded and permeate almost everything and everybody in our society. It took a few decades, but here we are.

                      Briefly toyed with the idea of a ‘quick’ Post but quickly running out of time, as usual 🙁

                    • Molly …
                      24 June 2022 at 3:50 pm

                      From my perspective, giving the role and responsibility of making a statement about neoliberalism and commercialism to this new Māori named state holiday is disrespectful to people as a whole, and a disservice to Māori long-term.

                      Address the issue across the board, instead of placing that whole conversation and burden on Māori concepts.

                    • Incognito []
                      24 June 2022 at 4:51 pm

                      You’re accusing me of something I have not committed and reading way too much into it – I did not mention or imply anything specific about Māori and/or Matariki.

                      But since you provoked me, I’ll give you something to sink your teeth in.

                      Māori concepts and culture are being (mis-)appropriated all the time, usually for commercial (and political) reasons. At the same time, Māori concepts and culture are under permanent threat, socially, economically (e.g. tourism), and demographically and they are in chronic danger of being assimilated into our Westerns ways. To keep up, to get ahead, and to counteract past damages that have led and still lead to inequality and inequity in our society the answer/solution for some seems to be education, career, success, and then trying (out-)compete with Pākehā in the Pākehā world. In doing so, these Māori, with their heart and spirit in the right place, sell their soul to the Devil and lose their spirit in the process. It is a Catch-22 unless we, collectively as a society as a whole, come together and help their cause. The reaction to this is cries and outbursts and first twisting and then weaponising terms & concepts such as partnership and co-governance.

                      As you can see from the above rant, hopefully, I am not disrespectful to Māori and do not do a disservice to Māori long-term. Neither am I placing a burden on Māori concepts. You have turned it upside-down and back-to-front.

                    • RedLogix []
                      24 June 2022 at 8:54 pm

                      I don't want to quibble with much of what you say here. In particular I fully agree that culture can be easily misappropriated. We are for example seeing this play out as Putin steals the Russian memory of their honourable role in defeating Hitler, for a wholly debased purpose in Ukraine.

                      But it is also true that any living culture evolves all the time, adapting as the world around it shifts. We cannot and should not demand the Maori world remain frozen in a kind of fantasy pre-European aspic.

                    • Incognito []
                      25 June 2022 at 2:59 pm

                      Yes, I agree completely, cultures evolve, which is something entirely different from being assimilated by a dominant and/or colonial culture. What I see happening is ‘Māori- washing’ thanks to the good intentions of PC warriors and the likes. It is superficial and commercial and only has the veneer of the culture it is supposed to represent but it is just empty hollow packaging and meaningless as such. Having good intentions is not the same as doing the right thing.

                      Te Ao Māori cannot remain frozen “in a kind of fantasy pre-European aspic” because: 1) it no longer exists; 2) who determines this way anyway? If we were to trust and respect and allow Māori some agency in determining these things for, by, and with themselves we would be on the right track, IMO. However, this seems to lead to absurd notions and equally absurd resistance, IMHO.

                      Final note: I guess that because some of the efforts feel so superficial and meaningless people feel more (easily) inclined to take a stance against them, i.e., they object and attack what they see as ‘virtue-signalling’ and ‘posturing’ rather than a genuine cause.

                    • weka …
                      24 June 2022 at 4:47 pm

                      Not following that Molly. My comment about consumerism was in reference to discussion on TS.

                    • Molly …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:12 pm

                      @Incognito

                      I apologise. My comment was not directed at you specifically. It was a generalised comment about the idea of treating this holiday in a different way to other state holidays, and addressing the reasons for doing so.

                      "In doing so, these Māori, with their heart and spirit in the right place, sell their soul to the Devil and lose their spirit in the process. It is a Catch-22 unless we, collectively as a society as a whole, come together and help their cause. The reaction to this is cries and outbursts and first twisting and then weaponising terms & concepts such as partnership and co-governance."

                      In some cases this may be true, in other cases individuals will make choices that are not congruent with Māori values, because of other reasons, including personal selfishness, ego and sometimes for reasons of opportunity. These universal impediments to collective thinking are also experienced and acted on by Māori and non-Māori individuals.

                      "As you can see from the above rant, hopefully, I am not disrespectful to Māori and do not do a disservice to Māori long-term. Neither am I placing a burden on Māori concepts."

                      As I said, this was not intended as being directed at you as an individual, just the general idea that Māori are assigned this responsibility, in such a way in regards to this holiday. I don't believe that is fair.

                      I'm going to have to re-read these conversations, because I have probably lost track of it as I've come back and forth over the last few hours. I do agree with what you have said above, but I don't think it is the whole picture in regards to Māori and this holiday.

                      Right. I apologise again. Was making the erroneous assumption that it was in reference to the original question regarding Matariki and the advertising, but it obviously was not.

                      (I'm leaving the start of this comment, where I got it all wrong, to show that I got it all wrong, and responded to something that you did not say.)

                    • Incognito []
                      25 June 2022 at 5:56 pm

                      Just letting you know I’ve seen your reply and all is good 🙂

                      I appreciate and respect your views in general and specifically as Māori and look forward to future convos on this topic. I think your attention is directed elsewhere today 😉

                    • Kiwijoker …
                      24 June 2022 at 9:23 pm

                      So true and sad.

                  • Sabine …
                    25 June 2022 at 10:04 am

                    "Otherwise we're just saying sorry underclass, this is the way it is, adapt if you can or die or whatever."

                    We have been saying that for a while now, in fact in Rotorua we have a street full of 'underclass' people whom we tell just that.

                    I am very over 'talking points' and purity spirals and the likes. People who have no money or who have obligations in this current environment all have a hustle to survive, and that hustle gives no fucks about holidays, culture, and the purity levels of people in
                    Academia, Arts, Politics, Pundit class etc who are either on benefits by the government or on good salaries. Those of us who are on no wages by an employer or on a benefit will have to work. And we will work when people are there and go out and about to have a good time.

                    Boxing day Sale is no more and no less evil then any other sale. People have money, people gift money – specially for young ones and they tend to spend it in their holiday period. And Businesses that would like to stay closed or don't want to incur the expense of paying extra to staff can stay closed. And some do.

                    I personally like sales to be organised as it was in Germany, i.e. Winter sale the first two weeks of January, and Summer sale the first two weeks of August (might be September not sure) and that is it. Any other promotion needs to be called just that, a promotion.

                    But keep in mind for some people Boxing Day Sales is a day out with their family.

                    • weka …
                      25 June 2022 at 10:09 am

                      if you cannot politically analyse (or won't) the dynamics and forces at work in capitalism, including Boxing Day sales, then there's no pathway out of poverty at the class level. There's only adaptation to neoliberalism and sorry for those that can't adapt. That's basically Labour's position.

                      I'm not arguing purity, I clearly said there are reasons why people need the sales. This is a both/and situation. We can both acknowledge that people need to adapt as well as talk about why this adaptation thing exists in the first place.

        • Molly 4.1.1.2
          24 June 2022 at 12:01 pm

          Thanks, Sabine. You too.

      • RedLogix 4.1.2
        24 June 2022 at 10:18 am

        Typing on phone promotes brevity. But I do want to reach out and wholeheartedly support your underlying sentiment here. Rational, tolerant and most importantly to my mind, celebrating diversity in our common universal humanity.

      • Bazza64 4.1.3
        24 June 2022 at 10:30 am

        Great comments Molly

        Cheers

      • Red Blooded One 4.1.4
        24 June 2022 at 10:39 am

        Agree with all that Molly. Thanks.

      • weka 4.1.5
        24 June 2022 at 10:54 am

        The Christians I know celebrate Christmas in both the commercialised cultural way

        What does that mean? They have adverts? They try and sell thing on Christmas day?

        If people don't see commercialisation as a negative then it makes sense to commercialise Matariki. But commercialisation causes problems in society. Consider alcohol or tobacco or pharmaceutical advertisements. Or if we get to the point of advertising breast binders, puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on TV.

        Commercialisation puts pressure on workers to be available on public holidays.

        We know from long experience with neoliberalism, that if commerce is given free reign then bad shit happens. Pākehā culture no longer has the sense to keep some things free of that for the betterment of socidety, thankfully Māori does.

        In this region, Māori were the prime traders and were exporting produce to England, in the mid-late 1800's. To assume that they would be against trading on a holiday (if the concept of national holiday was understood) is just that… an assumption.

        But Māori also had cultural containers for right action, including how to look after the group. It's almost impossible imo to compare 1800s practice with contemporary Pākehā practice given we are so encultured into individuality.

        • Molly 4.1.5.1
          24 June 2022 at 11:13 am

          I meant that the Christians I know, do the whole holiday spiel. Including the buying of gifts, etc. Or at Easter, include the pagan symbols of Hot Cross Buns or Easter Eggs. It doesn't seem to create much angst for them to do both.

          As an atheist, my family has it's own traditions. One that the children hate – and I love – is that they are not allowed to give me anything, but if they do, it has to be made by them. I sometimes get nothing – but do have several years of short videos made by them as they have grown. My point is, individuals and families create their own ways to mark holidays in ways that are significant to them.

          Whether it is because people are a mix of their religious beliefs, and their cultural environment is for the social sciences to provide evidence for.

          As an individual, I just know that for several years in my young adulthood, I both looked forward and participated enthusiastically in St Patrick's day. Neither my digestion or inclination trends that way at this stage of may life.

          The significance of Matariki as a holiday, is going to be different for all, and that significance will change. Some may celebrate by use of stories and symbols – most particularly in education, maraes etc. Others who have stronger connections to Matariki will probably have their own way of celebrating that is more traditional and proscribed. But many others will just be grateful that they have another day to spend with friends and family.

          Exposure to advertising that recognises and promotes the symbols of Matariki, is a commercialised but gentle reminder of the recognition of the Maaori aspect of the holiday, that replicates the advertising of other events such as Easter and Christmas.

          • weka 4.1.5.1.1
            24 June 2022 at 11:33 am

            I don't consider buying Christmas presents to be commercialisation per se. Depending on how people do it I guess, it's definitely become much more consumerist over my lifetime especially with children.

            People and families marking/celebrating Matariki in their own way is also not commercialisation. Has someone objected to people doing this?

            Exposure to advertising that recognises and promotes the symbols of Matariki, is a commercialised but gentle reminder of the recognition of the Maaori aspect of the holiday, that replicates the advertising of other events such as Easter and Christmas.

            Oh, interesting. See I see the holiday as wholly te ao Māori, and Māori have been generous to share it with non-Māori. I don’t see it as a mainstream, Pāhekā dominant culture holiday with a Māori name that has a Māori aspect. I suspect this right here is the fundamental disagreement about commercialisation.

            Plenty of ways for people to come to understand what it means without commercialising it, and I can't see how commercialising it will improve understanding of te ao Māori, I would guess it will make it worse. We will see.

            • Molly 4.1.5.1.1.1
              24 June 2022 at 11:41 am

              "Oh, interesting. See I see the holiday as wholly te ao Māori, and Māori have been generous to share it with non-Māori."

              That make sense. We are approaching this from completely different perspectives.

              I consider it to be a government recognition of Māori by the assigning of a name of a state holiday. The significance to some Māori and is neither enhanced or impacted by this act. A separation of state and 'church' in terms of its implementation.

              I wouldn't really want it to be otherwise, on reflection.

          • Molly 4.1.5.1.2
            24 June 2022 at 11:33 am

            Sorry, meant to address your question re the pressure to work on holidays.

            "Commercialisation puts pressure on workers to be available on public holidays."

            I was one of many workers who loved being rostered on a state holiday, because of the day in lieu and the extra hourly. Many of our lower income households are the ones that already work the shifts, and weekends. They already accommodate within their households the varying conflicts of their work with the assumption of normal schedules for schooling, activities etc. Those families co-ordinate their time off with other family members, rather than the community at large.

            It is a consequence of falling incomes and rising costs, but we shouldn't ignore those that welcome the financial benefit of increased wages by working on a state holiday.

            "But Māori also had cultural containers for right action, including how to look after the group. It's almost impossible imo to compare 1800s practice with contemporary Pākehā practice given we are so encultured into individuality."

            Pakeha history also contains examples of group knowledge and support. Māori, historically and now, have individuals that also are proponents of individual enrichment.

            I believe it is as vitally important to recognise the diversity of views and life practices within the Māori demographic, as we automatically do within the non-Māori demographic.

            It is both a sign of respect – and equality – to do so.

            • weka 4.1.5.1.2.1
              24 June 2022 at 11:39 am

              It is a consequence of falling incomes and rising costs, but we shouldn't ignore those that welcome the financial benefit of increased wages by working on a state holiday.

              Yes, but this is an argument for adapting to neoliberalism. Understandable and I support the pragmatics, but politically I'm in favour of system change. Better employment law, living wage etc. Public holidays with strong symbolic meaning are a chance to shift culture.

              Pakeha history also contains examples of group knowledge and support. Māori, historically and now, have individuals that also are proponents of individual enrichment.

              Yes, and British and Māori cultures were quite different in the 1800s, as are Māori and Pākeha today. My point stands, that us now, are engrained in individualism, and this is in contrast to Māori culture which has a much stronger emphasis on the collective good. The problem with commercialisation centres on the collective good.

              • Molly …
                24 June 2022 at 11:49 am

                "Yes, but this is an argument for adapting to neoliberalism. "

                Could be viewed that way. Personally, I see it as one of the more inventive and pragmatic ways that people find to deal with the failures of neoliberalism. Until the political landscape improves and material changes are felt at individual levels, people find ways to adapt and thrive.

                "Māori culture which has a much stronger emphasis on the collective good. "

                Many cultures have this emphasis. Many demographics also contain individuals that practice this without cultural reference, whether it be through religion, environmentalism, socialism etc. It's a perspective to support, but not necessarily adhered to by all Māori individuals or organisations.

                • weka …
                  24 June 2022 at 12:34 pm

                  there's a balance to be had about adapting and political change. Much of the GI debate is centred in adapting to and making the most of neoliberalism.

                  It's a perspective to support, but not necessarily adhered to by all Māori individuals or organisations.

                  Of course. When I talk about cultural norms, it's a given that not every individual or org fits or adheres to that. But I don't think it's incorrect to say that Māoridom is currently better at attending to the collective than Pākeha society, generally.

                  • Molly …
                    24 June 2022 at 3:36 pm

                    I understand what you are saying.

                    But I am cognisant of the difference between a concept, and how the concept is lived across modern Maoridom.

                    Part of that comes from my lived experience with my relatives and marae, some from the same observational scrutiny I use for others. I am fully aware my experience is only one of many, and not necessarily representative, but it is still true, and not one-off.

                    • weka …
                      24 June 2022 at 4:49 pm

                      not following this one either, sorry!

                      For me it's a given that in any culture (or set of cultures) there is variation. Is it me making a general statement about Māori culture that is the sticking point here? Is it an untrue statement? Or are you wanting to make more visible the variation within Māoridom?

                    • Molly …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:30 pm

                      "But I don't think it's incorrect to say that Māoridom is currently better at attending to the collective than Pākeha society, generally."

                      Purely from my personal perspective, it's a generalisation that I think it is not necessarily helpful.

                      If Māori have a really good functioning community, this is where the best aspects of Te Ao Māori can be lived, and seen. But there are Pākeha examples of the same too. We can recognise both, without the need for a comparison of merit.

                      As in all common groups, there is the possibility of those within in acting outside of those values, but not being held to account because of the roles, or power, or relationships they hold in those groups. Eg. Marae based organisations have the same vulnerability of church based in this regard, and just as my Pākeha friend has borne the brunt of that protection in her church, I have direct Māori relatives with similar experiences in their marae, that were also failed because of the commitment to solidarity rather than individual accountability.

                      I love those aspects of Te Ao Māori, and I acknowledge their value. But for me credit is given to whomever encompasses those values, in all ways. Whether Māori or Pākeha. Growing up with both Māori and Pākeha relatives, that had similar methods of sharing and community endeavours, I had always thought of it as New Zealand culture, and am reluctant to let that understanding go, so I realise it might be a personal one, rather than one that expresses adequately the conflict between the cultures today.

                • RedLogix …
                  24 June 2022 at 8:19 pm

                  This deprecation of individualism out of hand omits the enormous benefits it brings. The kind of overreaching tribalism that readily sacrifices personal welfare for the greater good comes at its own terrible cost. It is why most people choose modernity at the first opportunity they get.

                  Unconstrained individualism on the other hand carries its own alienation and social ills.

                  I would suggest these two principles are best thought of as mutually interdependent, each necessary to support the other. It is impossible to imagine a good, healthy society full of depraved, dysfunctional people. Equally a tyrannical, oppressive society will fail to inculcate admirable people.

                  • Molly …
                    25 June 2022 at 8:19 am

                    In conversations where I know the understanding and perspective of the other person, it is easier to give my perspective without going into areas I did not intend.

                    So, it is easier to explain in principle, rather than specifics.

                    I believe that in most cases – if not all – when implementing a process, or determining a solution, there is going to be impact or cost. This recognition doesn't mean that the solution is not the right one to undertake, just that there are costs to that decision that should be recognised and accommodated in some way.

                    As you say, both unconstrained individualism and tribalism carry both their own benefits and costs. A system that finds a way to capture the benefits of both would be ideal. Of course, in some situations one approach will predominate, while in others the opposite will be true.

                    Regardless, there is a cost to either of those approaches.

                    Effective (rather than punitive) regulation and policies might address the excesses of individualism, while processes that ensure individual accountability despite a recognition that the group embraces us in all our flawed humanity need to be included.

                    It is the optimal balance between the two that is so very hard to achieve, and requires ongoing review and tinkering. Sometimes, in real life, people who see the benefits of either approach, champion that approach and don’t recognise the costs when they occur – because we are not trained to look for additional problems resulting from our mostly great solutions.

              • Belladonna …
                24 June 2022 at 12:30 pm

                And some people have to work, regardless of whether it's a holiday or not (or our civilization will grind to a halt). Nurses, electricity workers, sewerage station workers, water supply, etc., etc.

                Public holidays have never (and can never) include everyone.

                Was in the CBD this morning catching up with a friend, and came across a Matariki festival. Maori musicians, stalls selling food, and general Maori themed nicknacks, jewellery, clothes, etc. Observationally (I didn't instigate a whakapapa check), these were all Maori – happily commercializing 'their' festival.

                Absolutely don't have a problem with this. And I think that it reflects a range of views on this from within the Maori sphere, just as there are a range of views on Christmas/Easter within the Christian sphere.

                • weka …
                  24 June 2022 at 12:44 pm

                  I think there's a real miscommunication about commercialisation here. To me it's not selling things per se. It's appropriating something into the neoliberal market with the intention of making profit with no regard for the wider good. I gave examples above about areas we restrict eg alcohol advertising.

                  People having a local market and selling stuff isn't commercialisation, it's community.

                  Public holidays have never (and can never) include everyone.

                  Obviously. The point was that commercialisation has enforced more people having to work on public holidays, unnecessarily. Easy to make a case for nurses being needed every day of the year. Not so a $2 shop, or a baby shop.

                  • Molly …
                    24 June 2022 at 12:50 pm

                    "I think there's a real miscommunication about commercialisation here. To me it's not selling things per se. It's appropriating something into the neoliberal market with the intention of making profit with no regard for the wider good. "

                    OK, I think I understand the distinction here.

                    If I do, I believe this to be a bigger conversation, rather than application to Matariki as a state holiday.

                • Kiwijoker …
                  24 June 2022 at 9:34 pm

                  You realise that our economy and civilisation will implode. Just ask Kirk Hope.

                  Who incidentally produces nothing.

              • swordfish …
                24 June 2022 at 2:16 pm

                My point stands, that us now (sic), are engrained in individualism, and this is in contrast to Māori culture which has a much stronger emphasis on the collective good.

                Noble Savage Romanticism.

                The public adoption of this posture is a form of narcissistic virtue-signalling from affluent Culturalists utterly divorced from cold hard Reality.

                • weka …
                  24 June 2022 at 3:11 pm

                  you appear to be the one with noble savage notions in your head Swordfish. There's absolutely nothing overt or implied about the nobela savage in the observation that Māori cultures are more collective focused than Pākehā in NZ. Neither is there anything controversial in my statement. Nearly 40 years of neoliberalism ffs.

                  By all means use lazy anti-woke virtueless signalling in lieu of an actual argument against what I said though.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  24 June 2022 at 3:40 pm

                  Reality is cold and hard?

                  No, it ain't.

                  • Poission …
                    24 June 2022 at 3:50 pm

                    Reality is binary,

                    • SPC …
                      24 June 2022 at 4:26 pm

                      Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary. The term is also used to refer to the ontological status of things, indicating their existence. In physical terms, reality is the totality of a system, known and unknown.

                      Then again

                      https://medium.com/encounter-in-nineveh/the-binary-universe-and-simulated-reality-dfc578658ac9

                    • Poission …
                      24 June 2022 at 4:45 pm

                      It from Bit (John wheeler)

                      Information gives rise to "every it-every particle,every field of force,even the space time continuum itself"

                      Not only is the observer observing,she is asking questions,and making statements that are expressed in discrete bits,"what we call reality" as Wheeler wrote "arises in the last analysis of yes/no questions'' and added 'All things physical are information -theoretic in origin,and this is a participatory universe'

                      From Gleick (the information)

                    • Incognito …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:10 pm

                      It is or it is not. There’s no question about it.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:15 pm

                      Binary?
                      Christian mystics (and others) would argue that it's a ternary.

                      Your thoughts, Poission?

                    • Poission …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:17 pm

                      H=n log s

                    • Poission …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:22 pm

                      Christian mystics (and others) would argue that it's a ternary.

                      Reality is binary.Or as Democritus said the only things that exist are atoms in the void,everything else is opinion .

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:29 pm

                      Democritus though, failed to understand what opinion is.

                    • In Vino …
                      24 June 2022 at 8:18 pm

                      No it isn't. (sarc) (Reply to Poision at 3.50pm. – Reality is binary.)

                      I suspect it is unitary

                      You are writing of our perception.

                  • swordfish …
                    24 June 2022 at 4:09 pm

                    Certainly not for affluent old virtue-signaling hippie fantasists in the rural idyll of small town Riverton.

                    You wouldn't have too much of a clue about life elsewhere, however.

                    • Ad …
                      24 June 2022 at 4:59 pm

                      "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"

                      – John Ch1, v 46.

                      It's surprising what comes out of the periphery.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      24 June 2022 at 5:17 pm

                      How unkind, swordfish, and ad hom 🙂
                      “affluent old virtue-signaling hippie fantasists in the rural idyll of small town Riverton.” is harsh.
                      Why are you so harsh?

                    • Blade …
                      24 June 2022 at 10:33 pm

                      There has been some interesting korero today. I had hard day behind the chainsaw, followed by the weed eater for desert. Nothing like some honest levity to end my day.

                • Ad …
                  24 June 2022 at 4:57 pm

                  Those who hold your view are dying.

                  Those who hold political and increasingly commercial power in New Zealand are a rag-tag battlefleet of educated post-settlement Maori, gays in all their forms, remaining unionists, urban activists, environmentalists, feminists, sustainability types, fitness and muesli freaks, poverty activists, all the massive companies addicted to the state, the deep left within key ministries, the great HoMoPoMo conspiracy of them …

                  … and together they have changed the language of political discourse forever.

                  It's OK. We know you hate them all. But your view will soon die.

                  Today is just one day where all of them break out into the open, official and permanent. Hoisted to something as real as the stars.

            • Robert Guyton 4.1.5.1.2.2
              24 June 2022 at 12:08 pm

              Many years ago, I became aware of aspects of the Matariki cluster (I drove a Subaru back then) and it's importance to gardening. The two "figures" around whom on the ground action was centred, Rongomatane and Haumietikitiki ( nga atua of cultivated & wild food) really inspired me, as did the focus on assessing food stocks and planning the next seasons mahi nga kai. I've marked Matariki ever since then, with regards to those aspects. I'm not a good star-gazer – myopia and colour-blindness aren't advantages to peering into outer space, so the earthier effects are where I connect with nga whetu. The national celebration we are enjoying now, hasn't changed my prosaic view of the celestial event; I still only consider Matariki from the growers point of view, but I do celebrate the wider involvement and awareness of all of us living here on these South Pacific islands of ours.

              • Molly …
                24 June 2022 at 12:24 pm

                A good friend of mine, who has just complete a degree in weaving, incorporated the Matariki cluster in her final submissions and her graduation korowai. The stories related to her pieces are both connected to her iwi's stories, and her own life.

                Such personal recognition and how we honour it at individual levels will be wonderfully diverse and significant, even if that recognition is not universal.

                Your personal story is another example, and with your circle of influence – which I know is considerable – may spread that knowledge wider and create another unique but shared celebration of Matariki in your community.

                I hope that is the case in many different rohe, but believe that it is sustainable only as an organic and personal process rather than a proscribed one.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  24 June 2022 at 12:57 pm

                  That's a good perspective, Molly.

                  Chris Trotter has a go at the issue and sweeps across many of the points, but ends with this:

                  "Isn’t it possible that Matariki may yet prove a cure for, rather than a cause of, racist contention? Maybe, as the Earth grows warmer, and the pretensions of science and modernity are increasingly laid bare, the hunger of all Aotearoans for gods and heroes will increase. Perhaps, when we realise that these islands are all we’ve got, the thought may grow in our hearts and minds: If all things are, indeed, related and alive, then why not be guided by the stars?"

                  I like that.

                  • Molly …
                    24 June 2022 at 1:27 pm

                    That's a good quote from Chris Trotter, but I think fails to acknowledge the overlap between the Te Ao Maori view and many other perspectives that are also aligned with recognising the connectiveness of all things, and the value of recognising this in the day-to-day choices we make. I also don't need a god or superhero to follow in order to make informed choices, but I can understand the residual longing for such easy solutions to the problems we have ahead.

                    When I first became aware of, and was finding out as much as I could about climate change – I can date this by one of my children – so around 23 years ago, I included in my immersion searches for organisations around NZ that were not only identifying the problem, but recognising the scope of it, and inviting solutions.

                    There were a few, but none organised that did all three. It was easier to find individuals speaking out or writing about the issue.

                    As the children got older, I looked in particular for Māori organisations, and found one Māori youth group – bookmarked on a now defunct desktop. But even then, the understanding of the impact of climate change was limited.

                    Over time, references to climate change started to appear in organisations Māori and non-Māori alike, but mostly in reference to getting funding or grants for local conservation or regeneration efforts, rather than a demonstrated understanding of the impact of the whole. Thankfully, this has slowly changed over time.

                    My point is that Māori, just like non-Māori – despite their common good view – often treated the example of climate change as it affected their group and rohe, not as the wider global problem it is, even though they had the concepts to consider the whole, in practice the scope was limited to the familiar immediate.

                    I agree with the concept of understanding the value of the living biosphere.

                    For me, I recognise that in a myriad of ways: in teachings of Te Ao Māori, in the environmental perspectives that I follow, my understandings of science, my personal values and political views, my concern for those who follow us… etc. The more we encounter that perspective in our lives, the better.

  5. Joe90 5
    24 June 2022 at 9:26 am

    Nope, no Israeli influence over US policy.

    //

  6. pat 6
    24 June 2022 at 11:43 am

    "You don’t have to like or agree with Vladimir Putin to take seriously the speech he made to the St. Petersburg Economic Forum last week. Five paragraphs – from an otherwise long and somewhat dull presentation – stand out:"

    https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2022/06/22/the-new-new-new-world-order/

  7. Bearded Git 7
    24 June 2022 at 12:34 pm

    I don't know if this has been discussed before on TS but apparently Putin was aboard the Mikhail Lermontov when it sank in the sounds in 1986. Shame he made it off the ship.

    • SPC 7.1
      24 June 2022 at 1:46 pm

      Mikhail Lermontov Mikhail Yuryevich Lermontov, born October 15 1814, Moscow, Russia died July 27 1841, Pyatigorsk, the leading Russian Romantic poet and author of the novel Geroy nashego vremeni – A Hero of Our Time – 1840.

      Albert Camus' novel The Fall begins with an excerpt from Lermontov's foreword to A Hero of Our Time: "Some were dreadfully insulted, and quite seriously, to have held up as a model such an immoral character as A Hero of Our Time; others shrewdly noticed that the author had portrayed himself and his acquaintances. A Hero of Our Time, gentlemen, is in fact a portrait, but not of an individual; it is the aggregate of the vices of our whole generation in their fullest expression."

      In Ian Fleming's From Russia with Love the plot revolves upon Soviet agent Tatiana Romanova feigning an infatuation with MI6's James Bond and offering to defect to the West provided he'll be sent to pick her up in Istanbul, Turkey. The Soviets elaborate a complex backstory about how she spotted the file about the English spy during her clerical work at SMERSH headquarters and became smitten with him, making her state that his picture made her think of Lermontov's Pechorin. The fact that Pechorin was anything but a 'hero' or even a positive character at all in Lermontov's narration stands to indicate Fleming's wry self-deprecating wit about his most famous creation; the irony is lost, however, on western readers not familiar with Lermontov's work.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hero_of_Our_Time

      • Bearded Git 7.1.1
        24 June 2022 at 3:56 pm

        Excellent…I will read The Fall…Camus is good value…quirky.

        Lermontov died at 27 like all of the good artists.

    • alwyn 7.2
      24 June 2022 at 2:00 pm

      I had heard that Putin was supposed to have been in New Zealand and attended the inquiry into the sinking. I hadn't heard the idea that he had actually been on the ship though. Where did you hear this?

      My favorite memory of the event was David Lange's quip about the sinking. "Lange declared that little old New Zealand was "the only nation to sink a Russian Ship since the Second World War."

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/tv-no-show-leaves-that-sinking-feeling/FKJ67R5OQ7JDEZ7KNSVTUEXUDA/

      • Bearded Git 7.2.1
        24 June 2022 at 3:57 pm

        A usually reliable friend of mine told me last night. Happy to be contradicted if wrong. I must admit I thought I would have heard about this before if it is true.

        • Graeme 7.2.1.1
          24 June 2022 at 5:50 pm

          There was funny goings on with that ship

          It was, and probably still is, normal practice of the Soviet submarine service to mask the acoustic signature of their submarines with a surface vessel when transiting shallow waters where the opposition could be listening.

          Many of the Pilot's actions, going close to shore and going through the channel that turned out to be a bit tight, could be interpreted as trying to minimise or remove this masking.

          It was also odd that our navy arrived to pick up the pieces within minutes, they were doing a hydrographic job nearby.

          I suppose that once the details of the affair are disclosed, (aren't they held in Richard Prebble's personal library?) we may get to know a bit more.

          There was a cartoon in Southern Cross of a Fred Dang character telling one side to bugger off, turning around and telling the other side to bugger off too. I understood that related to NZ telling USA to bugger off with it's nukes, and someone else.

          PS How do you upload an image (jpeg) to TS? I've got the cartoon but not as a url

          • Anne 7.2.1.1.1
            24 June 2022 at 6:43 pm

            There was funny goings on with that ship.

            I remember that. Didn’t Winston Peters make some allegations along the lines we were not being told the truth about it?

      • Anne 7.2.2
        24 June 2022 at 9:12 pm

        That man's wit is legendary.

        Maggie Thatcher sent Baroness somebody-or-another to NZ to tell David Lange he wasn't to do the Oxford Union Debate. The encounter was contentious to say the least and when she left his office he called out to her "hey Baroness you've left your broomstick behind".

  8. Anne 8
    24 June 2022 at 12:51 pm

    For anyone who may be interested, the following is the latest session from the US Congressional hearings into the Jan. 6th Capitol riots:

    It covers the shenanigans in the weeks leading up to the riot. Lengthy but gripping stuff.

  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    24 June 2022 at 1:01 pm

    Could have had worse!!devil

  10. joe90 10
    24 June 2022 at 1:42 pm

    Our wannabe crusher will be green.

  11. joe90 11
    24 June 2022 at 1:56 pm

    This is who they are and the Bethlehem school mob are singing from the same sheet.

    https://www.mediamatters.org/tucker-carlson/right-wing-media-are-pushing-vigilantism-against-trans-people-and-drag-queens

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1
      24 June 2022 at 2:38 pm

      This is who they are and the Bethlehem school mob are singing from the same sheet.

      I've looked….but I can't find where the Bethlehem School are saying that LGBTQ people should be killed. Or that violence should be directed towards them.

      Pray, joe90, provide a link to where you found the information that led you to make this claim.

      (There's a difference between believing that 'God doesn't make mistakes.' and 'LGBTQ people should be killed.')

      • joe90 11.1.1
        24 June 2022 at 3:19 pm

        WTF would I bother providing anything to you.

        /

        • Anker 11.1.1.1
          24 June 2022 at 9:51 pm

          No link then Joe90

          • Incognito 11.1.1.1.1
            24 June 2022 at 9:56 pm

            Can you read between the lines?

            • Anker 11.1.1.1.1.1
              24 June 2022 at 9:59 pm

              If I read between the lines there is a good chance I am making an interpretation that is not correct.

              • Incognito …
                24 June 2022 at 10:15 pm

                It may be correct or it may be incorrect, if you want to deal in/with binaries only. Question is what you’re going to do with it that adds to the convo here?

      • Red Blooded One 11.1.2
        24 June 2022 at 3:37 pm

        Defend them all you want, but statements like 'God doesn't make mistakes' does get people killed. Either by gun or pills it makes no difference. If you're beaten down enough by words from those you are supposed to look up to, life can become very bleak.

        • Molly 11.1.2.1
          24 June 2022 at 4:04 pm

          "Defend them all you want, but statements like 'God doesn't make mistakes' does get people killed."

          How does that get people killed?

          Their Statement of belief contains references to the sovereignty and will of God, https://www.education.govt.nz/our-work/information-releases/issue-specific-releases/integration-agreements-for-state-integrated-schools/integration-agreements-for-state-integrated-schools-a-b/ .

          One oft repeated Christian viewpoint, when people are going through personal struggles, or times of crisis is: 'God doesn't make mistakes' or 'God moves in mysterious ways'. Not particularly helpful, from my point of view, but not deliberately meant to harm, but rather to console.

          And so, we really need to know the context of that quote. How the conversation was initiated, and who was involved. If a student has made the statement that God had given them the wrong body, then I am not surprised that it has been challenged with the response that 'God doesn't make mistakes' within a Christian environment.

          Why are so many feigning surprise at this viewpoint, as if we know nothing at all about Christian beliefs?

          • Red Blooded One 11.1.2.1.1
            24 June 2022 at 4:23 pm

            Suicide. If a member of the LBGT Community continues to be told they are a mistake or you're going to hell because you're an abomination, etc etc etc, either by their church leaders or idols (looking at you, Folau), the potential for suicide is elevated. If they show welcoming and inclusion in their Religion then they show the good and right side of Christianity, it seems to me, these people show the opposite.

            • Ad 11.1.2.1.1.1
              24 June 2022 at 6:50 pm

              Suicide or lifelong depression.

              From the inside of a fundamentalist church for my early life I know exactly what it's like to watch people question their sexuality, let alone their gender assignment.

              I've seen the demon outcastings, the shunnings, humiliations, the one-on-one interviews, the training camps to re-educate you. Usually they leave, to start their entire life again, fairly damaged.

              And yup, suicide and lifelong depressions among a few.

              • Anker …
                24 June 2022 at 9:40 pm

                https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2022/06/uk-transgender-patient-suing-national-health-service-after-changing-mind-about-reassignment-surgery.html

                A story about a man who had surgery to transition as a woman and now is suiing the NHS. good on him. It is a harrowing tale.

                • weka …
                  24 June 2022 at 11:13 pm

                  good on newshub for covering that.

                  He claims he confronted his GP about his doubts and said there was no guidance for those who regretted the surgery.

                  I wonder if the new funding for trans healthcare will cover such situations.

                  The mental health impact on detrans people is intense. I don't think it's controversial to say that gay and trans people in fundamentalist churches can also have their mental health put at risk. Maybe we could have consideration for all people.

              • Sabine …
                25 June 2022 at 7:58 am

                Can you explain how a gender is assigend at birth?

                Sex is 'identified' early on in a pregnancy and then confirmed by birth. Sex being the visual secondary sexual characteristics of a human being i.e in an new born it is a boy – penis/scrotum, a girl – vagina.

                But last i checked babies are not born without these sexual organs (or like barbie dolls with nothing down there blelow) , and no doctor will order a nurse to go into a Storage room in wich there are shelfes full of spare penises/vaginas that can then be affixed to the new born child on the whims of a doctor/midwife/nurse. If that would be the case i believe that femicide in India or China for that matter would not happen as all the parents would choose the 'boy tackle' to be affixed to the sex less new born.

                Sexed bodies are OBSERVED at birth and not 'assigned'

                assign

                /əˈsʌɪn/

                verb

                past tense: assigned; past participle: assigned

                1. 1.

                  allocate (a job or duty).

                  "Congress had assigned the task to the agency"

                  Similar:

                  allocate

                  allot

                  give

                  set

                  charge with

                  entrust with

                2. 2.

                  designate or set (something) aside for a specific purpose.

                  "managers happily assign large sums of money to travel budgets"

              • Molly …
                25 June 2022 at 9:03 am

                I have a dear friend that also had harms that were not helped by the involvement in such a church.

                It affects all those who fall outside of the church doctrines in any way, not only those with different sexual orientations or gender expressions.

                That constancy of having someone tell you the right things to do comes at a a very high cost to all. The church either adapts or fails, as the people within it find they are able to survive without such control.

                I'm sorry to hear that your upbringing meant that you witnessed such things as a child, Ad. But it doesn't seem that Bethlehem College is at that extreme from what has been reported so far.

            • Molly 11.1.2.1.1.2
              25 June 2022 at 8:58 am

              Suicide, is not "getting people killed".

              Mental distress, and not being able to get appropriate support for that distress makes people more likely to attempt, and possibly succeed at ending their own lives.

              " If they show welcoming and inclusion in their Religion then they show the good and right side of Christianity, it seems to me, these people show the opposite."

              Given that I – and it seems many of the commentators who dictate a "good and right side of Christianity" – are atheists, I fail to see what the intent is here.

              Tell those whose sense of self falls outside the teachings of the church in about the failures of historic religious doctrines to serve anyone other than the church.

              Tell them, that they can find other more understanding churches to accommodate their belief in God. If they don't have a belief in God, then encourage them to dismiss anything they say.

              AFAIK, Bethlehem College did not put up a display or make a determined point in regards to this question. From the (very little) that was reported a teacher answered a student with "God doesn't make mistakes" – a familiar and oft used Christian phrase.

              Give ALL students the resilience and tools to deal with disagreements without resorting to self-harm as a response.

              Now, let's address the common use of suicide ideation in transgender advocacy. Despite this being against every suicide prevention guideline, advocates bring up the issue of suicide as impetus for non-therapeutic social and medical interventions.

              This is using the threat of suicide as a means of coercive control and manipulation.

              Surely, the answer to mental distress at this level is extensive and comprehensive therapy (and only therapy).

              Further point: The student was told that there was NO mistake in their existence. Not the opposite. They wanted to be told there had been a mistake.

        • Visubversa 11.1.2.2
          24 June 2022 at 4:44 pm

          How about "no child is born in the wrong body"? The vast majority of young people with bodily dysphoria related to their sexed body will resolve that with the right support by the time they finish puberty. Most will grow up to be perfectly "ordinary" same sex attracted people.

          • Red Blooded One 11.1.2.2.1
            24 June 2022 at 5:16 pm

            Thanks for your diversion, but that's not a road I'm able to go down, other than 'if NO child is born in the wrong body' how come only MOST will grow out of it, that leaves a lesser number who will not grow out of it, they are still people and will still suffer. I'm off out to join a diverse group of people to celebrate Matariki so, Cheerio.

            • Anker 11.1.2.2.1.1
              24 June 2022 at 9:46 pm

              The people who don't desist from their gender dysphoria I think will likely have a tough life and I do feel for them. I hope they get the right support.

              I posted further down about a man who had gender reassignment surgery and woke up full of regret and realized he had been castrated. He is now suing the NHS and I wish him luck.

            • Molly 11.1.2.2.1.2
              25 June 2022 at 9:32 am

              "… how come only MOST will grow out of it, that leaves a lesser number who will not grow out of it, they are still people and will still suffer. "

              If we had the answer to this, then any concerns about the long-term effects of inappropriate treatment would melt away like morning dew.

              It is precisely the inability of being able to determine who will persist and who won't that makes the issue of both social and medical interventions for minors such a contentious issue.

              If the majority do grow out of it – and there are other issues here regarding the very large increase in adolescent girls – then caution regarding treatment is well advised for this cohort. Not providing medical interventions until they are grown seems a precaution that seems advisable, given the permanent and long-term outcomes from intervention.

              For those that do persist – is there a way to alleviate the distress until such time they are fully cognitive adults?

              This is the conversation we need to be having about treatment for minors.

              It is one that requires a lot of research, input, perspectives and considerations. But the consequences of failing to even contemplate this discussion by the adults, will – as ever, be borne by the children and young people we are entrusted to protect.

          • Populuxe1 11.1.2.2.2
            24 June 2022 at 6:39 pm

            How about canning the whataboutery just to shoehorn in your favourite bogeyman just this once? That would be nice. We know where you stand on that particular issue, ad nauseam.

            • weka 11.1.2.2.2.1
              24 June 2022 at 11:16 pm

              I think there are parallels between 'god doesn't make mistakes' and 'born in the wrong body' that are worth exploring. If you don't like the conversation, maybe just scroll on by. Telling other people to shut up because you don't like their politics isn't going to run on a political blog.

            • Molly 11.1.2.2.2.2
              25 June 2022 at 9:21 am

              The original post on this thread was about the harm to transgender people by adherents of Christianity.

  12. Incognito 12
    24 June 2022 at 3:24 pm

    Rosemary yesterday mentioned (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-23-06-2022/#comment-1896276) this Microsoft Report:

    Defending Ukraine: Early Lessons from the Cyber War

    https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE50KOK

    Not an awful lot of data in it though and heavy on rhetoric. But it is more than what our Government has shared with us, so far.

    • Poission 12.1
      24 June 2022 at 6:59 pm

      SVR

      • Historical revisionism
      • Think tanks & academia

      Who would have thought that could be so divisive.

    • mauī 12.2
      24 June 2022 at 9:05 pm

      Quite helpful russian propaganda though, giving kiwis a heads up on vaccine effectiveness and side effects was probably useful for many.

      • joe90 12.2.1
        24 June 2022 at 9:18 pm

        With half the cases and ten times the deaths per capita. Nah.

        /

      • Incognito 12.2.2
        24 June 2022 at 9:39 pm

        😀 You're by far the funniest commenter around here on TS and that's saying something. 😀

    • weston 12.3
      24 June 2022 at 11:05 pm

      Uncle sam the old rooster wants to gather in as many of his loyal hens as he can reminding them that they need him to keep them safe but he knows the cold wind of change is beginning to stir and he sees the young challengers on the periphery strutting their stuff……….

    • Jenny how to get there 12.4
      25 June 2022 at 6:15 am

      From the Microsoft report

      During the last six months, similar Russian cyber influence operations sought to help inflame public opposition to COVID-19 policies in New Zealand and Canada…..

      I had noticed that a number of the covid-19 deniers and anti-vaxxer commenters also supported the Russian Federation invasion and war against Ukraine.

      I had thought it was just the same old anti-government useful idiots pushing wacky right wing pseudo-science conspiracy theories.

  13. newsense 13
    24 June 2022 at 7:44 pm

    Anyone able to fill out Josie Pagani’s CV? I’ve seen an awful lot based on her candidacy for a Labour seat a decade ago. Then I hear rumors about her being an oil lobbyist or having connections to one which you never see listed at the bottom of her columns. Does she have P.R. or lobbying clients?

    Just sticking my nose in really, but you know it would be interesting to know when reading her writing.

  14. Corey Humm 14
    24 June 2022 at 8:49 pm

    The newly merged media company will be named "Aoeteroa New Zealand Public Media " lmfao oooh boy that's a name that'll catch on.

    ANZPM. Could they fit any more letters on it?? That's the best this govt and it's army of pr reps and gargantuan legions of consultants can come up with ?!? Really?!? Lmao. Ridiculous. Call it NZBC like ABC CBC , BBC.

    When the majority of the public see ANZ they think ANZ Bank or Australia/New Zealand and NZPM is shorthand for the Prime minister.

    If ANZPM is the name of this new organization, thanks but no thanks rnz and tvnz can keep.

    Ridiculous.

    If they name it anzpm I'd almost be inclined to vote act in the hopes that shit gets privatized.

    I'm a millennial, My generation has no interest in watching NZ content, why should we have to pay to fund it ?

    • Muttonbird 14.1
      24 June 2022 at 9:00 pm

      The world according to Corey Humm. Speaks for a generation, does young Corey.

      I’m not surprised you want to vote ACT because they, like you, are culture killers.

      Check your ego, son.

    • Anker 14.2
      24 June 2022 at 9:48 pm

      Corey Humm you have nailed it again! 100%

    • Molly 14.3
      25 June 2022 at 9:41 am

      ANZ – does have a resonance here in NZ, as standing for Australia New Zealand.

      ANZ bank is one. But ANZAC is another, and so is ANZUS.

      I agree it is a fail on the acronym side.

      Have to disagree here though:

      "My generation has no interest in watching NZ content, why should we have to pay to fund it ?"

      My response, typical of an old fuddy-dud, and partly – but not wholly – tongue-in-cheek: Eventually, you'll grow up.

    • SPC 14.4
      25 June 2022 at 10:10 am

      We have two official names – and the media concerned is as much "consumed" online than by broadcast.

  15. joe90 15
    24 June 2022 at 10:35 pm

    Sounds familiar.

    On Wednesday, these anti-vaccine groups kicked off a summer of planned protest with an event inside Canada’s Parliament buildings in Ottawa, supported by sitting Members of Parliament. Outside those buildings is where the so-called “freedom convoy” took over Canada’s capital for several weeks this past winter, setting off similar movements across the globe.

    […]

    The Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre, an arm of the Canadian intelligence community that provides intel to local law enforcement agencies, warned in a special bulletin that they’re seeing mounting “aspirations to overthrow the federal government or to engage in mass violent resistance.” The bulletin was provided to VICE World News by a law enforcement source.

    According to the intelligence assessment, the chance of an organized attack, a storming of Parliament, or another occupation of the city is “unlikely,” and Canadian intelligence and law enforcement believe the protests will most likely be peaceful and lawful.

    Yet, they warn, they’re increasingly witnessing “a culture in which individuals, including supporters of ideologically motivated violent extremism (IMVE), feel that they can threaten, incite, and celebrate violence online without consequence.”

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pz7x/conservative-mps-anti-vaccine-convoy-ottawa

  16. Jenny how to get there 16
    25 June 2022 at 5:43 am

    Follow the money.

    Who would have guessed that Wall Street has an interest in denying abortion rights.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-finance-anti-abortion-lawmakers-2022-5?utm_source=notification&utm_medium=referral

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