Open mike 24/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 24th, 2019 - 154 comments
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154 comments on “Open mike 24/08/2019 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    24 August 2019 at 8:35 am

    Fossil fuels used by construction and mining machinery are often cited by those apparently wishing for us all to go back to subsistence-agriculture lifestyles. But those industries can and are going electric too.

    https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/23/volvo-group-brings-electrification-autonomy-to-industry/

  2. Herodotus 2
    24 August 2019 at 8:37 am

    I have noticed greater numbers of tuis around our area and at council parks that Saturday sports are held at, just wondering if this observation can be supported by others( I hope others have noticed the same)

    • OnceWasTim 2.1
      24 August 2019 at 8:44 am

      What area are you in @Heridotus? There's definitely been a huge change in the bird population here in Wellington (adjacent to the Town Belt) since Zealandia has become well established

      • Herodotus 2.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 1:08 pm

        Eastern auckland

        With all this talk of intensification of housing and watching English sport and still seeing large areas of inner cbds with large areas of tree coverage, I worry that Auckland is destroying any resemblance of being anything but a concrete jungle. Council parks, schools establish 1/4 acre blocks having trees chopped down that we will be left with sparrows and miners.

        • OnceWasTim 2.1.1.1
          24 August 2019 at 3:20 pm

          "Eastern Auckland".

          My deepest sympathy. It's going to take a while (unless it all goes tits up as it inevitably will). I think maybe the birds stand a better chance though

    • Anne 2.2
      24 August 2019 at 10:19 am

      Yes. They usually make themselves scarce around my local parts over the winter months and return in the spring when the trees etc. are starting to flower. I have noticed quite a few around in the past few weeks. I live on the North Shore peninsular (Devonport etc.)

    • Psycho Milt 2.3
      24 August 2019 at 11:01 am

      It's now common to hear tuis where I live, and where I work. I often have them in the garden, due to having a couple of bottlebrushes, a coral tree (they love that one) and various fruit trees. I’ve even had a kereru out there a couple of times, and I live well inside the city boundary.

  3. bwaghorn 3
    24 August 2019 at 8:45 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115246462/tainui-saves-the-government-from-a-seabed-and-foreshore-moment

    Garner and news hub are still the only ones saying a deal is done and dusted at ihimatao.

    Newton sidelined.

    • marty mars 3.1
      24 August 2019 at 9:12 am

      if you listen to idiots you'll end up thinking the same – try a better source of info I'd say

      • Wayne 3.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 9:26 am

        And who is a better source? Just because you don't like Garner, et al, doesn't mean he is not well informed.

        The comment by Shane Jones later in the day certainly seemed to indicate that Tainui is likely to buy the land from Fletchers. And Jones seemed to envisage Tainui doing a substantial part of the proposed building development. Perhaps not the full 450 as proposed by Fletchers, but likely a substantial proportion.

        While Pania Newton may not have been the primary negotiator for this outcome, and may not have even been included in the negotiations, the occupation led by her will be the primary cause for Tainui to be involved.

        • marty mars 3.1.1.1
          24 August 2019 at 9:35 am

          lol – there are many better sources – try opening your mind a bit sheesh

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1
            24 August 2019 at 9:45 am

            Such as?

            • marty mars 3.1.1.1.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 9:54 am

              you don't know any other sources of information on Māori issues apart for duncan garner? for real?

              • Incognito …
                24 August 2019 at 10:05 am

                I’d like to think that there are many readers of TS, who are invisible because they don’t comment here, and who would find it helpful if you could provide links to those “many better sources” that you refer to. Some, but not all, may indeed open their minds and broaden their horizons. Isn’t that what you wish for? For real.

                • marty mars …
                  24 August 2019 at 10:08 am

                  lol you sound a bit emotional.

                  • Incognito …
                    24 August 2019 at 10:11 am

                    You are not forthcoming 🙁

                    The likes of Garner are well-connected but they also act as a BS-transformer. You can counter it, if you wish, or you can snipe …

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 10:14 am

                      yes I can do what I want within the rules of the site can't I? Is there a problem with that from your point of view as a moderator?

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 10:21 am

                      lol you sound a bit recalcitrant.

                      From a Moderator’s perspective, we can do without The Smiling Sniper, if you must ask.

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 10:31 am

                      you'll need to be more specific please I don't know what you mean. I don't think garner has any value on this or any other topic – others may disagree – so what.

                      Is there more to this than this mornings posts from me – it seems personal somehow.

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 10:54 am

                      Not personal, I don’t like snipers – they take aim at selected targets – and I’m disappointed when people don’t want to be helpful even when they clearly and easily can be.

                      That’s it from me as I have expressed my hopes clearly enough.

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 11:02 am

                      thanks for clarifying. sorry I haven't met your expectations. I try to be pithy and that has disadvantages for sure. I do try to balance my scintillating attacks with calm pieces too but I am a work in progress. 🙂
                      PS and i try to be funny – always a double edged sword that one

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 4:53 pm

                      Readers come and readers go here. They may look for an authentic perspective not some hyped up piece in MSM. They may want to learn something new. They may come here to confirm their prejudices and stereotypes.

                      I believe this site has much to offer and can help to build bridges based on mutual respect, trust, and understanding. The people who write here, people like you and (much less so) me, make the site what it is. It is a work in progress and it is a collective effort. The work is never done.

                    • Dukeofurl …
                      24 August 2019 at 8:49 pm

                      Thanks thats clearer. I would agree repeating stuff from Garner often isnt worth the effort.

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 9:09 pm

                      Can I ask which actual comment you were replying to? When the reply buttons run out it can get a little confusing 😉

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    24 August 2019 at 11:03 am

                    lol you sound a bit emotional.

                    In other words, no you don't have any better sources of information.

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 11:12 am

                      nice twister – hint – the giveaway is the "in other words" bit – if you want more impact just leave that weak shit out and then you'll be good to go with the twist hidden a little by the outrage generated – similar to dead cat sorta

                    • Dukeofurl …
                      24 August 2019 at 11:22 am

                      The main point of incognito ( if I may summarise?)is lots of people get useful information from posts..because they provide a wider view. Doesnt have to be only stuff you agree with. But it needs to be information not empty catch phrases.

                      I look at the awesome online magazine, https://e-tangata.co.nz/ for a Maori view ( and not Garner) of events

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 12:00 pm

                      it is pathetic that people don't have good info sources – wtf? there should be some lowering of the head but there won't be – I'll be blamed I'm sure.

                      Funny thing is I put lots of links to Māori news sources and thought on this site every week. EVERY WEEK.

                      ffs

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 12:51 pm

                      General comment looking at this thread.

                      1. If you want to know what Māori involved in the negotiations think, go read what Tainui and Kiingitanga have already said on the matter.

                      2. It's an opinion piece from Garner. He's shit stirring, and he's using his considerable institutional power to attack SOUL and support the outcome he wants. It's racist as fuck and fits with his reactionary conservative history on most matters.

                      3. please don't expect the one or two politicised Māori commenters in this thread to do you mahi for you. There are plenty of mainstream Māori media outlets covering Ihumātao. Google them if you don't know (and don't take the first 50 hits from the past week, because they're now loaded with Pākehā voices). Or ask politely from the general commentariat.

                      4. lefites, please don't do the rights work for them.

                      If we want TS to have more diverse commenters and writers, then we have to learn how to make this place work for a range of people. Much could be learned about that from SOUL currently.

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 12:52 pm

                      But they say no deal has been struck despite rumours that they're about to reach into their own pocket to fix the problem.

                      Kiingitanga spokesman Rahui Papa's phone started ringing early this morning when Newshub reported that Tainui was about to buy back Ihumātao.

                      But Mr Papa was quick to pour cold water on the claims.

                      "There is no deal. There is no resolution at this stage and all of the media speculation is unfounded," he said.

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/397328/there-is-no-deal-waikato-tainui-leader

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      24 August 2019 at 3:36 pm

                      nice twister

                      If you comment that there are "many better sources" of information than the one a fellow commenter linked to, are then asked to provide an example of one of these "many better sources" but refuse to provide one, people are entitled to assume you're just a blowhard.

                      Given your history on this site and the fact that there certainly are many better sources of info than Duncan Garner for any given subject, no doubt you're not bullshitting. But some (many?) of the people reading this thread won't know those things and may assume you're a blowhard. Wouldn't it have been better just to give a couple of examples?

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 3:58 pm

                      I just don't like being told what to do in that way.

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 4:13 pm

                      pretty much everyone in this thread is a long termer. If marty is the only one considered to know good sources of information on Ihumātao, or Māori issues generally, that's a problem (I personally don't believe it, but maybe I'm wrong).

                      for comparison, feminists routinely have to deal with this shit, men expecting them to do the mahi of educating them. We have the internet for a reason.

                      I'll just write this off as a weird day on TS, but honestly, having a go at a Māori man who most people here know who criticised using Duncan Garner of all people as a source on Māori issues? Instead of having a go at Garner. Weird.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      24 August 2019 at 4:35 pm

                      "I just don't like being told what to do in that way."

                      There's the nub.

                    • Dukeofurl …
                      24 August 2019 at 5:28 pm

                      Its in the Policy.

                      "…We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.”

                      Saying that assertions dont have to be backed up is contrary to policy as it would seem 'do your own work , thats what the internet is for.'

                      LOL.. so is arguing when asked for 'proof' or some backup.

                      Are you saying these policies dont apply Weka ?

                      [In this context? Of course not. Marty’s original two comments that there were better sources of information on the topic than Garner seem reasonable to me. He was expressing his opinion, people are free to disagree if they believe that there are no better sources of information than Garner, and then we can debate that I guess and people can start linking to support their view.

                      Marty wasn’t starting a flamewar. He also pointed out that he regularly posts links to Māori news sources. I don’t know what’s going on here but I still find it bizarre that people are having a go at him over a couple of brief comments that Garner is not a good source of news on Te Ao Māori.

                      You’ve left out this bit of the policy: What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. This will vary among moderators but my own view is that if we want to not exclude people then as well as behavioural issues there are issues of culture. Hence my comments about Māori or women being expected to do the leg work for others and that this creates an unwelcoming atmosphere.

                      There’s nothing in today’s debate that made me think about moderating until you invoked me. With my moderator hat on I’m inclined to say, don’t be a dick. You yourself were one of the few people who linked to another news source, so I’m not sure what you are doing here other than being argumentative for the sake of it.

                      If you are instead seeking clarity on moderation, I hope this helps. – weka]

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      24 August 2019 at 8:53 pm

                      …but honestly, having a go at a Māori man who most people here know who criticised using Duncan Garner of all people as a source on Māori issues?

                      I wouldn't support using Duncan Garner as a source on any issue, but it pushes my buttons when commenters assert something and then reject any obligation to support their assertion. Whether they're Māori or not isn't a factor, and shouldn't be.

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 10:06 pm

                      I guess it just seemed such an obvious thing as to not need any back up. Like if I said I thought FB was a stupid place to get news from and there were better places. It's an opinion, and people can agree or disagree, but does it really need explaining?

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 10:59 pm

                      I have a different take on it.

                      Sure, people can express an opinion and when they are (repeatedly!) asked to back it up with a smidgen of information I think that is a reasonable request. These requests were denied/ignored in a petulant way IMO because there was no obvious good reason to refuse the requests.

                      I don’t see this as doing the legwork for others. I see it as being helpful and reaching out to others. All it needs to be is a link or a starting point for an internet search. After all, these were “better” sources than Duncan Garner’s one on an imminent deal with Tainui. What are the chances of doing a search, reporting back here in good faith, and then getting pooh-poohed again because that source is not reliable either?

                      To write off another opinion (piece) because (of) Duncan is understandable – I’d do it myself – but Wayne made a good point @ 3.1.1. that it may have more (?) to do with disliking Garner and/or what he said. The whole Garner thing feels like shooting the messenger. It was an unhelpful sideshow.

                      Garner’s piece was on the most recent developments (or not) and it would have been useful and relevant for me and I presume others to find at least one other source that could either confirm or refute Garner’s. None has been forthcoming thus far …

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 11:16 pm

                      I posted upthread to an RNZ piece where Kingiitanga are saying no deal has been done. Afaik the only people in the conversations are Māori with a hand in the game. eg there are no Labour MPs there. Garner may well have a source from inside the tent, who knows how reliable that is, but either way my own view is that Garner is shit stirring, because that's what he does. He's racist, and a misogynist, and yes that colours my view because his history on this is solid. Much like anything that came out of Key's mouth needed to be understood in a certain context.

                      I agree that it's reasonable to ask people to back up opinions. I don't think it's reasonable to demand people do that unless there is something particularly unusual about the opinion. You asked, and you and marty had a conversation about it, kei te pai.

                      Where I disagree is that the idea that there was no good reason to refuse the requests. I can tell you how tedious it gets in gender conversations to have to educate people on gender issues when there is a large degree of denial and antagonism in those convos. People can ask, that's fine, but having a go at someone for not answering under those conditions misses the broader context.

                      Yes, it might be good for this community to have Māori media resources made more available. I just think the onus is on Pākehā to do that, not Māori. Marty already links plenty.

                    • Incognito []
                      24 August 2019 at 11:51 pm

                      Thank you for responding and clarifying.

                      Yes, I did see and read the RNZ piece you posted but is was dated the day before and I wondered if there were other sources and/or possibly updates available.

                      What got my nose slightly out of joint was the way the refusals were made. Yes, we had a conversation and a mutual understanding and I fully respect Marty or any commenter’s right to not oblige. However, his opinion was about other sources being better. We were never able to judge this for ourselves because no links were provided. It is common practice here on this site that when one alleges a fact they should back that up with a link at least when asked. For example, site X is shite but site Y is great is an opinion on their relative merits and quality but there is no denying the fact that they both exist and can be linked to. I hope this makes some kind of sense.

                      You obviously don’t work in education 😉

                      It is relatively easy to educate the ones who are keen; it is next to impossible to educate the ones who don’t want it. One of the most rewarding experiences in education is not when a keen student ‘gets it’ but when an unmotivated one starts to open up and wants to learn and learn more.

                      Yes, it might be good for this community to have Māori media resources made more available. I just think the onus is on Pākehā to do that, not Māori.

                      I must be tired but I didn’t follow this line of reasoning at all.

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 11:59 pm

                      I think that some commenters sometimes let their personal emotion get involved and their dislike of me and my opinions colours their responses. I get hurt but move on because I have a bigger agenda. Today's example was a pretty idiotic one imo but whatever… can't learn some people no matter how much you try to.
                      edit – incog – it’s not my job to do your work – what a cheek pushing those rude questions at me. Not impressed tbh

              • Wayne …
                24 August 2019 at 12:02 pm

                The specific issue is Duncan Garners source for this particular story, not the broader issues of the Maori media.

                And on this specific issue I suspect Duncan is very well informed, either directly from the Tainui leadership or from senior MP’s (probably from NZF) who know how the negotiations are going.

                • marty mars …
                  24 August 2019 at 12:09 pm

                  you seem to love to state the obvious as if it is a revelation

                  you may think a deal is done because duncan says he knows – I think everything about that is tainted and untrustworthy.

                  • Wayne …
                    24 August 2019 at 12:20 pm

                    So why do you think the information/him is “tainted and untrustworthy.”

                    As I said in my initial comment, just because you don’t like him doesn’t make him wrong.

                    In any event he is much more deeply connected into Maori leadership, both traditional and political, than you seem to appreciate.

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 12:55 pm

                      Whether his source is speaking true or not, Garner is plainly shitstirring. What possible public good is there to be had from this leak? Why not let the people involved sort this out without the pressure from a NZ public that is still largely ignorant of Māoridom?

                    • marty mars …
                      24 August 2019 at 12:58 pm

                      I look at who is saying what and who isn't. I look at their previous comment/statement/knowledge/understanding of the issues similar and the same. I then account for or discount their narrative accordingly. Based on this approach I discount most of what garner says. Is that okay with you?

                  • Climaction …
                    24 August 2019 at 2:25 pm

                    garner looks to be stirring shit as he hasn’t provided a single source as back up to his claims. Wayne obviously thinks powerful men in media MUST be better informed without having to prove it.

                    The problem is your alternative is even weaker as all we have is your claim of negation of garners source, who ever that may be.

                    my friend down in Hamilton claims garner is correct and he is unusually close to these things

                    • bwaghorn …
                      24 August 2019 at 4:53 pm

                      I dont rate garner but it seems an insane thing to do to fabricate a whole the deal is done story.

                      I would say if it's not true hes being played by others ,which given hes a bit of a thicko is plausible or there is some truth in it .

                  • Ed1 …
                    24 August 2019 at 7:24 pm

                    I've got this far through the thread, and marty mars I saw your comment that "lol – there are many better sources – try opening your mind a bit sheesh" – and when asked what they were you see to have evaded the issue. I don't generally trust Garner, but I saw his interview with Finlayson who had ideas about Tainui solving it all without government involvement, and now it is of Garner's idea and story so he is pushing it. I haven't generally been following this issue though, so, marty mars, can you post a few of those "many better sources"?

        • Anne 3.1.1.2
          24 August 2019 at 10:27 am

          Yes, Pania Newton can take a bow. A future leader in the making.

          Garner's picked up a scent and running with it so he can boast about being the first to reveal it.

          And I'm not trying to be nasty… that's Garner's MO. smiley

          • McFlock 3.1.1.2.1
            24 August 2019 at 3:30 pm

            ISTR Garner waving a letter a few years ago, adamant that Shearer had less than two weeks in the job – a few months before the actual departure. And Espiner was much more accurate with his own prediction.

            I barely rate Garner on political affairs, let alone Māori issues. He's more of a cold-reading psychic than a reporter – taking a reasonably predictable proposition and saying it with confidence. Or a pump 'n' dump trader, knowing that himself stating something will happen makes people begin to plan as if that's what will happen, increasing the chances he'll be vaguely "correct".

            • Anne 3.1.1.2.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 4:57 pm

              He's a right wing reactionary and his so-called analysis of current events are invariably over-simplistic. Add to that the shock jock culture of mediaworks and his views are to be taken with a grain of salt. Occasionally I think he does get it right but imo in the majority of cases he’s wrong.

              but as you say McFlock:

              a pump 'n' dump trader, knowing that himself stating something will happen makes people begin to plan as if that's what will happen, increasing the chances he'll be vaguely "correct".

        • Alex 3.1.1.3
          24 August 2019 at 11:29 am

          So it's OK for Tainui to develop the land, but not Fletchers? What am I missing here?

          Reminds me of when Tainui and local iwi vehemently objected to Watercare placing biosolids on nearby Puketutu Island on the basis that the island was sacred. The objections disappeared when Watercare offered to pay iwi an undisclosed $/cubic meter for the dumping.

      • Dukeofurl 3.1.2
        24 August 2019 at 9:28 am

        Newton is not the person to decide, she holds no position with Kawerau a maki and the end decision is for the iwi as a whole .

        She can finally move to Rotorua with her boyfriend to work in his fathers law firm that was her original plan

        What a shame some people will no longer have a distant cause

        • marty mars 3.1.2.1
          24 August 2019 at 9:43 am

          lol yeah yeah we know your lines to slur her instead of argue against her. Shows how weak and useless your mana is lol – keep it up homer and make even more of a complete fool of yourself – here's another target for you

          Dame Whina Cooper is our New Zealander of the Year for leading a hikoi from the Far North to Parliament House to demand recognition of Maori land rights.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/new-zealand-herald-150-years/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503278&objectid=11142262

          • Dukeofurl 3.1.2.1.1
            24 August 2019 at 10:51 am

            Whinia Cooper had a long record of service to her own people and the maori community at large before the 1975 Hikoi.

            Its laughable that you compare Dame Whinia with someone after her university studies went to work for her boyfriends daddys law firm.

            Whinia returned to her Te Rarawa people after her schooling in Greenmeadows

            • marty mars 3.1.2.1.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 11:07 am

              ouch – I'm feeling a bit sorry for the sorrow you're attracting but then again who cares – you will reap what you have sown dupe.

              your jaundiced eye is no measure of how people are perceived within Māoridom – but it is a measure of how scared you are – very eh, lol, loving it

        • mauī 3.1.2.2
          24 August 2019 at 10:38 am

          "and the end decision is for the iwi as a whole ."

          Funny, don't you mean to say "and the end decision is for the head of the iwi", because from day one you've attempted to shut down anyone disagreeing with him.

          • Dukeofurl 3.1.2.2.1
            24 August 2019 at 11:00 am

            You are confusing the chair and spokesman of the Marae, who spoke for the decision made previously by the iwi.

            Thats how maori iwi work, surely you should know they work collectively…but clearly you dont. Im not maori but I hear about iwi meetings from those that are.

            Im not shutting down anyone, just referring the previous agreements with Fletchers made by the iwi, also the full and final settlement of their land claims made by the iwi.

            For your phony reality stick to the TV shows

            • Dukeofurl 3.1.2.2.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 11:48 am

              A chance to learn

              https://e-tangata.co.nz/history/treaty-negotiators-not-a-job-for-wimps/

              "For many of the negotiators and those they represent, the gains have little to do with financial and commercial redress. Because, compared to the losses suffered by Māori, there’s stuff-all that can be clawed back from the Crown. It’s about the rebuilding of a tribe, restoration of mana, reclamation of lost stories, putting atrocities and wrongs on record. It’s about the return home of iwi members, the pride in a new generation, embedding the tribe’s role in decision making throughout their district and ensuring a stronger sense of place. It’s about both legacy and potential.

              ““One of the dangers of the whole settlement process,” says Michael Cullen, “is that it divides hapū from hapū, it divides iwi from iwi. Because, of course, traditional boundaries weren’t hard-and-fast lines on the map, like English counties.”

              Its apparent some here , like Marty and Maui, are much more like the human headline Garner than they want to admit- cliches, empty rhetoric , buzz words

              • marty mars …
                24 August 2019 at 12:04 pm

                "Let’s be clear. The whole exercise is painful enough for Māori, but when the process and outcome are a mystery to most New Zealanders, the scene is set for misinterpretation, misunderstanding, and misinformation. Cue the wilfully ignorant and downright racist, dying to rark things up."

                hmmmm

                • Dukeofurl …
                  24 August 2019 at 2:43 pm

                  So it was racism for the iwi alongside Fletchers to call in police to remove SOUL from the land?

                  http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1907/S00265/kaumatua-kuia-call-for-protestors-to-leave-ihumatao.htm

                  Every iwi , I could imagine, have whanau or hapu who disagaree with decisions made collectively by the iwi as a whole?

                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12259969

                  “Taua claims that "Te Kawerau ā Maki are mana whenua of Ihumātao". His fellow trustees take a more nuanced stance, and say "they admit that Te Kawerau ā Maki have claimed mana whenua status…..but [it is] just one group of a number of who are mana whenua of Ihumātao".

                  "Notably, Pania Newton and her five cousins – who founded protest group SOUL (Save Our Unique Landscape) and whakapapa to Ihumātao – have always maintained they are not affiliated with Te Kawerau ā Maki."

                  Which is what I believe too , they arent TKAM, but seem to constructed their mana whenua to suit them. Interesting.

                  Socialist fan-bois who jump in on a cause arent expected to provide answers , but do they love getting in the way. Ive seen photos of them ( like John McCaffery- Irish descent) lined up outside the Council hearing room , with only Pania and one other iwi member.

                  • marty mars …
                    24 August 2019 at 2:51 pm

                    sorry your rant was wasted – in more ways than one I might add – I quoted from the article you linked to dimbob – lol you are floundering now

                  • mauī …
                    24 August 2019 at 7:34 pm

                    lol "constructed their mana whenua to suit them."

                    Dude, the protesting group belong to the marae located on the land!

                    • Dukeofurl …
                      24 August 2019 at 8:59 pm

                      Belong ?

                      The iwi is Kawerau a Maki and Newton and her cousins dont have an affiliation.

                      Mana whenua means authority of the iwi over the land- and even water- if they are not iwi there is another word for Newton and those cousins.

                      A friend told me there is a maori word for that , Ive forgotten but in English is called 'outsider'.

                      Ihumatao is the rohe of Kawerau a Maki, there is no other group to consider in the current circumstances.

                    • weka …
                      24 August 2019 at 10:01 pm

                      I think the word you are looking for is tauiwi. I got taught that it simply means people who aren't our iwi.

                      How do you think mana whenua is established? Then, why do you think that TKAM are the only iwi who derive their mana from that land?

                      My understanding is that there are several iwi with connections to Ihumātao. Also, that Pania Newton has whakapapa to TKAM.

        • weka 3.1.2.3
          24 August 2019 at 6:19 pm

          Mod note for you at 5.28pm

    • Daveosaurus 3.2
      24 August 2019 at 4:49 pm

      So Duncan "Waah waah, this country's too full of icky icky brown people and I hate it!" Garner is trying to reinvent himself as an authority on Maori issues, is he?

      He can just get in the sea and swim back to Pomgolia.

  4. vto 4
    24 August 2019 at 9:00 am

    I think its time for a big shout out to the older white men of New Zealand. This group has, over the last 130 years or more, led NZ to its liberal and progressive place in the world today, with such things as female suffrage (and male suffrage 14 years earlier), anti-nuclear middle finger to the US, the creation of a comprehensive welfare state in the 1930s and the like.

    Similarly in our local Council, the older white men are pretty much all liberal and progressive types, of left persuasion. I suspect this is repeated across many Councils. It reflects the progressive and liberal nature of the older white men in our wider community.

    They are certainly less conservative than many most other identity groups in NZ e.g. Pacifika who are very conservative, Maori, most older women. And they are certainly less conservative than most other males across the planet e.g. Arabia, US.

    This is all good and I thank them for this contribution to our society today.

    Especially for the male suffrage provided 140 years ago this year. Cause for celebration. Is there any celebration planned?

    Yeah

    • Cinny 4.1
      24 August 2019 at 9:07 am

      Having a bit of a giggle here, an old white man who resigned from council is now deciding to standing again because there are women standing in his ward this election.

      But I'm guessing/hoping he is not the type of old white man you are celebrating in your post VTO.

      Where's the celebration happening? I did a google but came up empty.

      • marty mars 4.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 9:17 am

        I heard a barbie was planned – the march was a fizzer cos the rugger replay was on – some action in the malls today with small tables and leaflets I think.

    • marty mars 4.2
      24 August 2019 at 9:13 am

      lol – we stuffed the world up now please worship us – yeah nah – tidy up your mess first

      • vto 4.2.1
        24 August 2019 at 9:17 am

        lol yeah nah

      • Dukeofurl 4.2.2
        24 August 2019 at 9:43 am

        “– we stuffed the world up now please worship us – ”
        Enver Hoxha was only 36 when he became prime minister of Albania , he became first Secretary of the Communist party a few years earlier, was that the young dynamic leader you are thinking of, as he was so good at his job he remained in total control till he died at 77.

        Or is it Bernie Sanders , now 77, and his great accomplishments during his time in office ?

        • marty mars 4.2.2.1
          24 August 2019 at 9:51 am

          I know you can cut and paste from the internet dukey so what?

          • Dukeofurl 4.2.2.1.1
            24 August 2019 at 10:36 am

            Where do you get your ideas? The cornflake muesli box?

            • marty mars 4.2.2.1.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 10:47 am

              seriously, and it is a theme for me today it seems, I don't get your point.

              What has bernie got to do with anything or the other guy? me struggling to comprehend today sorry

              • Dukeofurl …
                24 August 2019 at 11:11 am

                I was giving an example of young leaders and old … and what they did or didnt do , to inspire you..both were socialists might be a clue

                • marty mars …
                  24 August 2019 at 11:24 am

                  I am a socialist, so thanks.

                  Things have to change – I agree 'young' and 'old' are very poor proxies for what we are trying to say. Chronological age is weird and messed up. Yet the truth is we need other voices, different thinking and values to create the world we're moving into imo.

        • Cinny 4.2.2.2
          24 August 2019 at 9:56 am

          If only Bernie was the status quo…. imagine 🤟

          • Dukeofurl 4.2.2.2.1
            24 August 2019 at 10:34 am

            Well Bernies a millionaire now , so the system is working for him. His household income including his wife is almost $300,000 pa. For many years. That puts him in the 1%

            His financial disclosure statements show they have stakes in 36 mutual funds and other investments

            They own 3 houses.

            Elizabeth Warren is worth $8 mill, but then again shes not as 'socialist' as Bernie so thats OK.

            Cinny knock those stars away from your eyes .

            • Cinny 4.2.2.2.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 2:13 pm

              The real value is how people treat others, including the environment, whether one owns 3 houses or has money in the bank. JS

              What was your point again, I think I might have missed it. 💭

    • mauī 4.3
      24 August 2019 at 10:44 am

      Have you thought bout getting into politics?

      You could appeal to the disenfranchised older white male vote.

      • Dukeofurl 4.3.1
        24 August 2019 at 11:59 am

        You speak for about 1% of the vote . Good luck with that in changing anything

        • adam 4.3.1.1
          24 August 2019 at 2:08 pm

          dukeofurl, todays troll with bad statistics.

          "You speak for about 1% of the vote"

          mauī spoke for themselves, or is your racism so ingrained dukeofurl that you can't even grip that basic idea? Because if you missed it – your paternalist racist rants are getting tired, boring, and old.

          That me just speaking for myself, not any % of the public, just me.

          • Dukeofurl 4.3.1.1.1
            24 August 2019 at 2:27 pm

            It was his claim of being a socialist and the roughly 1% vote they get( he talked about election politics)

            Your point is what ? Apart from imitating Garner with buzz words and empty rhetoric

    • Molly 4.4
      24 August 2019 at 5:17 pm

      … do you live on Planet Key, vto? I suspect there will be a knees up at the golf club if you really want to celebrate… Mind you empty your bladder before you attend though, apparently there are no toilets on Planet Key.

      • vto 4.4.1
        25 August 2019 at 5:41 am

        yeah thanks Molly for more smart-arse offensive comments about older men, great.

        You don't want to celebrate men getting the vote in 1870? It was after all monumental and the first time ever. It also paved the way for women getting the vote only 14 years later. That was celebrated. Why not men?

        btw, fuck Planet Key, you shouldnt assume so much. You should also read the bit about older men and their long-established liberal and progressive credentials.

        disappointing Molly, but at least you've revealed your prejudices.

        • Molly 4.4.1.1
          25 August 2019 at 12:47 pm

          I didn't make any " smart-arse offensive comments about older men". I responded to your familiar baiting with light hearted levity about one of our recent prominent older white men, who was held up for celebration.

          I see many celebrations of achievement happening all the time, and often the people lauded are "older white men". So, I was just asking you to consider whether you are in fact tending to see a bias against that demographic, that is non-existent.

          My long-term partner is – as we communicate – becoming an even older white male. My sons will be whitish older men. I celebrate them every day.

          “You don’t want to celebrate men getting the vote in 1870?” Meh. Not so much. That consolidation of political power in this country led to more effecient land confiscations and consolidations, and the 1870 vote was for property owners. Male suffrage – for Pakeha – did not really come in until 1879. I will celebrate the return of voting rights to prisoners. The removal of residential voting rights, which would bring us in line with most of the world. And the return of overseas votes without the need to visit the country within the last three years for ex-pat overseas residents that retain their citizenship.

          I celebrate fairness.

  5. Pat 5
    24 August 2019 at 9:48 am

    Fan inundated with excrement

    "US President Donald Trump says he has "hereby ordered" American companies to leave China, after Beijing announced plans to slap new tariffs on US goods."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/397383/us-firms-hereby-ordered-to-quit-china-trump

    • Sabine 5.1
      24 August 2019 at 10:35 am

      Trump shortening the US…..profits will be made.

      anyways is that not what he was voted in for? To destroy it all. 🙂

      • Andre 5.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 11:01 am

        The idea that King Con is indeed deliberately manipulating markets for personal gain deserves at least some consideration, not outright dismissal as a weird conspiracy theory. He is known to have successfully done it before in the 80s, before others got wise to him and he apparently lost it all again.

        https://www.salon.com/2019/08/13/donald-trump-is-driving-america-off-an-economic-cliff-but-is-it-deliberate/

        But I'm not yet sure I'm ready to totally buy into it. Seems to me the evidence still points much more towards the Fraud from Fifth Avenue playing pigeon chess, not 23-dimensional chess. Y'know, where it flaps in squawking loudly, knocks over all the pieces, shits all over the board, struts around like it's won, then flaps out again still squawking.

        • Sabine 5.1.1.1
          24 August 2019 at 11:21 am

          The speculation has been going on for a while now and frankly yes, he is making money, his children are making money and everyone else around him is making money. And thus the economy is booming. the plebs?

          I don't think its a CT. Who profits. Its not even chess, its simply a mafia/organised crime tactic of pay me to protect you from me, cause it would be sad if something something were to happen to your nice business, your nice house, your nice children your nice country your nice exports ………….

        • Pat 5.1.1.2
          24 August 2019 at 11:38 am

          wouldnt put it past him at all….but whatever the motivation(s) it dosnt change the impact on the rest of us, not to mention the potential for it to transition from a trade/currency war to yet another of the shooting variety

          • Anne 5.1.1.2.1
            24 August 2019 at 12:41 pm

            Well, the petulance he has shown over being denied the opportunity to buy Greenland is a case in point. He claims he wanted to buy it for America but that's a load of rot. There are a lot of valuable minerals in them thar snowy mountains and glaciers and he wants to get his grubby little hands on them.

            • Pat 5.1.1.2.1.1
              24 August 2019 at 1:12 pm

              theres no doubt he spits the dummy when thwarted or critcised…which makes him all the more dangerous

            • Sacha 5.1.1.2.1.2
              24 August 2019 at 1:30 pm

              Someone else's grubby hands. Chump is an obedient little boy.

            • joe90 5.1.1.2.1.3
              24 August 2019 at 2:00 pm

              He claims he wanted to buy it for America but that's a load of rot.

              Prick's all blut und bloden and reckons Greenland is just like Norway.

              While President Trump seemed to pull his interest in purchasing Greenland out of thin air this week, he’s actually been privately talking about buying the semi-autonomous Danish region for more than a year, according to the New York Times.

              In fact, last year the President even joked about trading Puerto Rico — the U.S. territory he’s treated with contempt ever since it was ravaged by Hurricane Maria — for Greenland, according to a former administration official who spoke to the Times.

              https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-greenland-puerto-rico

  6. marty mars 6
    24 August 2019 at 10:05 am

    Nice – I think every Anzac day trees could be planted for the fallen. On each holiday it could be an excuse to plant some trees – christmas, new year, easter, whatever – just another reason to offer commemoration by planting life.

    Overall, more than 3000 native trees would be planted in Dunedin area this month, as living tributes to the men and women of the New Zealand Defence Forces, and marking the 100-year anniversary of the end of World War 1.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/native-trees-%E2%80%98living-tribute%E2%80%99-soldiers

    • adam 6.1
      24 August 2019 at 2:21 pm

      Nice.

      And good work on the whole Garner thread, above.

      Sad day when people here can't think of at least a couple of Māori news sources off the top of their head.

  7. marty mars 7
    24 August 2019 at 10:35 am

    not good this – wrong on so many levels – I have been very impressed with Nanaia Mahuta over recent weeks – great mana

    New Zealand's Minister for Maori Development has advised a Maori group attempting to claim a portion of land in Parramatta to think again.

    https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2019/08/23/nz-maori-minister-urges-rangihou-people-think-again-after-sydney-land-claim

    • Dukeofurl 7.1
      24 August 2019 at 11:08 am

      There is no such thing as Rangihou people. Thats the name given to the farm on that spot established by Samuel Marsden the anglican missionary , around 1815, named after a bay in the Bay of Islands.

      The City of Parramatta give a good background of the location on their website.

      Highly unlikely Te ruki Kawiti a ngapuhi chief was involved, and he certainly wasnt a "king"

      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/te-ruki-kawiti

      • Hongi Ika 7.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 1:04 pm

        Duke you are FOS when did u become an expert on Maori History and Anthropology, climb back in your hole you RWNJ !!!!

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1
          25 August 2019 at 12:32 pm

          Maori dont have customary land rights in Australia.

          Its high school stuff to know that Parramatta – where this park is-was founded as a settlement the same year as Sydney in 1788, and any maori who may have settled there around 1810 or so were part of the British colonisation. Hint -they even called it the Colony of NSW

          That makes them colonisers not an indigenous people.

    • Molly 7.2
      24 August 2019 at 5:23 pm

      My heart fell when I saw this being reported. My primary instinct, followed by rational justification is that no such ownership claim should take place in a country that has systematically stolen land from the indigenous people.

      The only presence that others should have in any such claim, is as support for indigenous people when they do so.

      (This stance also translates into unease at the establishment of maraes overseas. To me, maraes are inextricably linked to whenua, and we have no claim to overseas locations, and should not dispossess others of their own land even in that small way.)

      • marty mars 7.2.1
        24 August 2019 at 5:36 pm

        + 1 yes I agree

      • weka 7.2.2
        24 August 2019 at 6:24 pm

        I felt similarly when reading about this.

        (not sure about marae. Wouldn’t it be like saying that Muslims from other countries shouldn't put their mosques here? People need a place to connect collectively even where they are living in another land. Tricky though, because I hear what you are saying about the inherent connection to whenua).

        • Molly 7.2.2.1
          25 August 2019 at 1:02 pm

          For me, marae are inextricably linked to whenua. Both geographically and in Te Ao Maori, spiritually. As a people who understand land dispossession, the thought of laying that spiritual claim to land in another country just seems discordant.

          Churches, including are a place of worship for beliefs that transcend countries. They are a place of gathering, which can take place wherever the church can be built. It is not usually on a sacred site or area of significance, the consecration takes place after the decision to build is made.

          Small difference perhaps, but a significant one.

          • Sacha 7.2.2.1.1
            25 August 2019 at 1:06 pm

            How do you see pan-iwi urban marae?

            • Molly 7.2.2.1.1.1
              25 August 2019 at 1:38 pm

              “How do you see pan-iwi urban marae?”
              in Aotearoa?

              I often visited Manurewa marae, which AFAIK is a pan-iwi urban marae. It is in Aotearoa, so the connection to land is still there, and is spoken of, in terms of local iwi. It is not another indigenous peoples ancestral land, so I can see how with the creation of urban marae these old connections are rediscovered and strengthened.

          • weka 7.2.2.1.2
            25 August 2019 at 1:42 pm

            that makes sense, although I would say that European churches do have a history of being land based and sites being chosen because of the land. Even here in NZ I think this has been true sometimes, looking at some of the places churches have been put. Pākehā are a long way culturally from belonging to the land, but I don't think it's entirely severed. Also acknowledging the role of colonisation in that history.

            • Molly 7.2.2.1.2.1
              25 August 2019 at 1:52 pm

              Churches in Europe did have that connection, and rightly so in their own lands. (Often though, they seemed to supplant the local peoples sacred places – a usurpation of existing beliefs with organised religion, meted out in wood and stone. )

              So much of Te Ao Maori is linked to whenua. The aspects of kinship and kaitiakitanga are intertwined with the protection of natural resources and awareness of both ancestral links and future descendants need to access those resources. For me, this gives a worldview that is both necessary and heartening. It is less about the geographical space that a marae takes up, but the centre it provides for looking after local people and places.

              • weka …
                25 August 2019 at 2:01 pm

                One of the ways that Pākehā can get over our colonising ways is to learn how to belong to the land again. I see a role for churches or similar in that. While I still have connections back to where my people came from, they're not so strong as to override the connections I experience where I live now. At some point Pākehā will have to come to grips with this, and that includes centering that provides for looking after local people and places. Whether that is by being assimilated into Māoridom, or by living and working alongside in partnership I don't know, but I'm not sure I automatically exclude the latter (and hence the necessity of buildings being deeply connected with place, culture, spirituality).

                • Molly …
                  25 August 2019 at 2:20 pm

                  A strong aspect of Māoridom that I think is neglected, is the allowance of space and growth of the 'other' within Aotearoa, and the sharing of connectedness to land. I value the aspects of the RMA that encourage and facilitate engagement with local iwi, even while I despair at some of the implementations and dialogue around it.

                  There have been some very successful iwi partnerships with local authorities and communities in regards to conservation and environment. The Waikato River management ; is a good example of everyone being connected in a major undertaking, and understanding being a central result.

                  And I'm speaking as an individual, rather than for Māori. I don't even have a clue about how overseas marae are regarded amongst others, it's a personal view that doesn't really have much impact one way or another. I would think the only time it would come up is in discussions like this. Alternatively, if I was asked to contribute or support the establishment of an overseas marae, I would decline and explain why. Hopefully, the result would be a discussion of why I am misguided or misinformed, or a new perspective being introduce to the person looking for contributions. More likely, a defensive reaction, but I live in eternal hope.

  8. Brigid 8
    24 August 2019 at 10:46 am

    Khan Sheikhoun and the northern Hama countryside liberated.

    https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1164988455924969472?s=20

    • Psycho Milt 8.1
      24 August 2019 at 11:04 am

      "Liberated" implies liberty, and is therefore a wildly inappropriate term in this case.

      • Dukeofurl 8.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 11:29 am

        You mean its not 'liberty' in the same way Iraq is after the US occupation, where they can vote and ……something

        Khan Sheikhoun is around 25 km from Mhardeh

      • adam 8.1.2
        24 August 2019 at 2:14 pm

        Your ability to take know term to describing a military event, and then twisting it support the islamic state and it backers is truly surprising.

        So now you're defending the head choppers Psycho Milt?

  9. A 9
    24 August 2019 at 11:14 am

    Not the only Maori area with dirt floors, no running water etc. Plenty about NZ if you stop claiming "there is no poverty in NZ" and actually look around. Good to see it getting coverage – never thought I'd see the day.

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2019/08/horeke-northland-housing-crisis/

    Hey…wouldn't it be great if EVERYONE in NZ could have more than dirt for flooring? There's an idea.

  11. Fireblade 11
    24 August 2019 at 2:12 pm

    Jacinda Ardern attends the Islamic Women's Council of NZ annual conference on Saturday.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115254276/jacinda-ardern-promises-to-look-into-more-opportunities-for-muslim-women

  12. adam 12
    24 August 2019 at 2:24 pm

    Brazil – a corrupt/inept government, elected of the back of a corrupt court case, and totally failing to deal with anything.

    Oh and did you know massive protest against said corrupt/inept government are daily. No. MMmmmmm

    https://fair.org/home/media-blackout-on-brazils-anti-bolsonaro-protests/

  13. joe90 13
    24 August 2019 at 2:43 pm

    *crickets*

    /

    In its newly-released report, AGPS documented the death of 17 Palestinian refugees under torture in Syria-s state-run dungeons during the first half of 2019.

    In most of the cases, the victims’ families received the death reports following years of enforced disappearance.

    AGPS kept record of the secret detention of 1,759 Palestinian refugees in Syrian government prisons.

    http://www.actionpal.org.uk/en/post/9013/

  14. marty mars 14
    24 August 2019 at 2:58 pm

    Interesting facts – I'm pretty impressed by Taylor and Fletchers on this. And I can imagine a dream scenario with multiple benefits across a wide arc of society – wistful thinking for sure

    New Zealand’s largest construction company and controversial owner of the disputed Ihumātao land near Auckland airport has made a $164m profit, a big turnaround from its losses last year. Business editor Maria Slade analyses what it all means.

    …What did it have to say about the dispute over Ihumātao?

    Ross Taylor was asked about it at the media briefing, of course. He reiterated the company line that it was staying out of it. “The prime minister with iwi wanted us to down tools a few weeks ago to allow iwi and government to work through a way forward on that. And we’re very respectfully allowing them that space to do that.

    “We’re not involved in those conversations, so we’re waiting for that direction to emerge so we can then work out how to engage and react to it.

    …How big a deal is Ihumātao for Fletchers financially?

    In monetary terms the project is small beer. Auckland Council currently values the 33 hectare site at $36m, less than a quarter of Fletcher’s $164m annual profit. QV records show the company bought the land in 2014 for $19m when its council valuation was only $11.8m. Once Fletchers got the go-ahead to develop a subdivision the land’s value increased significantly, and that’s also when the long-running protest over its ownership stepped up to the next level.

    When you consider that Fletcher’s revenue was $8.3b last year, $36m is a mere ripple. The high profile stoush didn’t even rate a mention at the investors’ briefing following the results announcement, indicating shareholders aren’t losing any sleep over how the company’s bottom line might be affected.

    When asked at the earlier media briefing whether the hold-up in developing the land would cost the company, Taylor said it would not. “I mean, we’ve been through a planning process over four years so providing this breathing space is not a problem at all.”

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/21-08-2019/cheat-sheet-fletcher-building-unveils-massive-profit-amid-ihumatao-outcry/

  15. phantom snowflake 15
    24 August 2019 at 3:13 pm

    Ihumātao… Te Waiata!



  16. marty mars 16
    24 August 2019 at 3:43 pm

    A great interview – honest, and nuanced and I learned a lot.

    Criminal lawyer and youth justice advocate Kingi Snelgar thinks that tikanga and prison are "chalk and cheese" and a much wider reform of the entire justice system will be required to lower the number of Māori in jail.

    Kim will ask him about his vision for a decolonised justice system and his experiences working as both a Crown prosecutor and a defence lawyer within a system he experiences as both racist and broken.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018710206/decolonising-the-justice-system

  17. cleangreen 17
    24 August 2019 at 6:15 pm

    When is our public free to air channel mcoming to air?

    Labour promised us a voice too remember?i

  18. cleangreen 18
    24 August 2019 at 6:15 pm

    When is our public free to air channel mcoming to air?

    Labour promised us a voice too remember?i

    • weka 20.1
      24 August 2019 at 9:07 pm

      Less fires now than last week?

      • Sabine 20.1.1
        24 August 2019 at 9:17 pm

        nope read is new fires to add to the orange one.

        i read a number of 78.000 + fires.

        we need to change our conversation on what can be done, to what must be done.

        Frankly i would assume this to be the very first of the events that will lead to the destruction of our society as we know it now. No one even talks about it, the pollution that comes with it, etc.

        Not even sure if you can extinguish these fires anymore either, everyone who has an interest will simply just light another one. the green light has been given, and those that profit have decided to take matters in hand. Pretty much the planet is fucked, now its just a question about admitting it.

        Also just for fun, have a look at the fires in Alaska. I have a friend who lives there, Salmon are cooked in the rivers and ocean. Dead wales have been washing up all summer there. She is just desperate and heartbroken. So are my friends in Bresil.

        • weka 20.1.1.1
          24 August 2019 at 9:31 pm

          I don't get it. How can the last 24 hours one be added on? Wouldn't the previous ones show if they were still burning?

          Anyway, I agree with this,

          "we need to change our conversation on what can be done, to what must be done."

          What are you thinking?

          • Sabine 20.1.1.1.1
            24 August 2019 at 9:48 pm

            people are intentionally lightening fires. It is the regular fire season, so farmers are burning plant debris etc, miners burning up smaller areas of forrests, and such. Essentially if you look again in 24 hours you will see more fires added to it. Ad to that lack of rain – again compounded by the fact that the forest is being decimated add to that no will to actually combat the fires and you have a bit of an issue.

            As i said the number that i read about all the ongoing fires in that forest across a few countries not just bresil is 78.000 + . that number alone is staggering and hard to wrap ones mind around.

            what must be done? If i were a benevolent dictator i would demand / decree / order (to use the oranges words)

            a. all public transport free of charge

            b. no more then one vehicle per household ( you better have a good reason wanting more then one and one has to apply for it)

            c. increase food product locally and force supermarkets to carry that local food

            d. incentives, force farmers to reduce herd sizes, plant natives on steep hills, plant in rivers, stop irrigation where it never made sense to begin with.

            e. plant. Plant as much as we can.

            f. no more cutting down of trees for parkings/garages etc

            g. car free sundays (it was fun being with a bicycle on the motorway in the seventies 🙂 )

            high investment in alternative energy, water turbines, wind mills, solar cells

            above all honesty to the populace, that really we shat the bed and if we want to continue to sleep in it we must clean the sheets, the matraze, the frames, the duvet, pillows and the bedroom.

            However nothing will happen because growth, profits, and gutless polititians, pundits, philosphers, and last but least a populace that can't even conceive of not being entertained.

            And for what its worth, i don't have a car. I sold the last toy to insulate my small 55 sqm house, i plant trees, i forage, i get my food locally produced, i don't have mobile phone, my computer is quite old, so is my furniture and yet i seem to miss nothing and still have a good quality of life. I live in a place where going about on foot and on bike is feasable, i have a garden that will feed me- drought and super hot summer permitting. and any protein that i need is provided by the rescue chickens that my relatives haves – they lay an incredible amount of eggs all 63 of the chucks. Non of the chucks ever end up as roast, they live to a long life and are happy sleeping in trees. Well some of them..

            We need to collectively stop participating in this madness.

            Last but least, we must stop electing people in the hope that they burn down the system expecting them to produce a better one. And when they gay bash, women bash, migrant bash, other bash but promote the burning of the land that you live on one should ask if they really have OUR best interest at heart or their own. Cause frankly the guy in bresil does not give a fuck, he knows that chances are he will survive longer then we do.

  21. joe90 21
    24 August 2019 at 9:55 pm

    But HRC would be worse.

    //

    The Trump administration took its hardest line yet to legalize anti-gay discrimination on Friday when it asked the Supreme Court to declare that federal law allows private companies to fire workers based only on their sexual orientation.

    An amicus brief filed by the Justice Department weighed in on two cases involving gay workers and what is meant by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which bans discrimination "because of sex.” The administration argued courts nationwide should stop reading the civil rights law to protect gay, lesbian, and bisexual workers from bias because it was not originally intended to do so.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/trump-scotus-gay-workers

  22. lprent 22
    24 August 2019 at 10:33 pm

    Site works well on the Hipster version of OpenIndiania (a public version of Solaris Unix) using Firefox.

    There was some kind of issue when I was first looking at the page and the reply ‘button’ didn’t show up. Worked fine on a refresh.

    Idle check whilst updating a virtual machine (incredibly slow upgrade mechanism). The operating system works fine in a vmware workstation 15 virtual machine.

    Setting this VM up as a reference cross-compile test.

    Nice fonts for something that is about 10 years since its last major upgrade.