Open mike 24/10/2020

126 comments on “Open mike 24/10/2020 ”

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1. gsays 1

   24 October 2020 at 6:37 am

   Just in case your shadenfreude levels are getting low, here is part 1 of 3 parts, Andrea Vance looking at the recent train crash that was the National election campaign.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300137917/election-2020-the-complete-disarray-of-nationals-campaign-that-led-to-electoral-slaughter
   • Stuart Munro 1.1

     24 October 2020 at 8:50 am

     It's very personality based, and pays little attention policy impacts on the public. It misunderstands Covid too – Labour and the health officials made a credible go of the Covid crisis, which earned them some support – but National's support collapsed when they went full attack on Covid handling without any suggestion of a workable alternative policy. Bridges went full Star Chamber with his committee, and though never impressive before, he went nowhere but down after that. Tova got a bit of the same thing as the daily briefings brought a little sunshine into media behaviour and showed the country what a nasty little rabbit she is.
     • Sacha 1.1.1

       24 October 2020 at 9:26 am

       Worth a read but yes, Vance can only focus on people and what they said. Other writers will apply the missing analysis.
       • Muttonbird 1.1.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 10:16 am

         Yeah, she didn't tell us anything we didn't know before apart from a few tid-bits like the campaign manger working from home in the last week, etc. It was a merely summing up exercise which has become the thing to do these days championed by so called political analyst, Bryce Edwards.

         She got nowhere near what people really want to know (including the Nats themselves) which is what role Bridges and his allies had in all this. She only once touched lightly on the core reason for this unravelling which was Bridges' perverse, self-promoting response to the government's handling of Covid.

         Anyone looking for enlightenment from Vance will be disappointed. Hope she can do better in parts 2 and 3.
   • Bearded Git 1.2

     24 October 2020 at 8:51 am

     Vance's epic failure to understand MMP.

     "The roots of this go back three years, when the caucus was shaken by Winston Peters’ decision to eschew the popular vote and support a Labour-led Government over National."

     Winston agreed to join a coalition that was backed by a majority of the public vote. He didn't eschew anything.

     (If Winston had said nice things in the campaign about the coalition partners, rather than attack them, he might still be in parliament.)
     • anker 1.2.1

       24 October 2020 at 10:31 am

       Vance's epic failure to see her own and the msm role in this.

       The Covid 19 laid bare for all NZ ders to see that in fact Labour and Jacinda were highly competent governing for all NZ's interests when we really needed it. People in lockdown only had to compare our response to what was happening and any one of most countries, take your pick, UK, Italy, US or would you care for a bit of Brazil (excuse the attempt at humour here). No matter how the msm attempted to spin it with the ratty little questions at the end of the daily press conferences and Nationals absurd "Its a shambles! Open the boarders! No close them, Bubble with Oz response",

       NZders could see with their own eyes, could feel it that we had highly competent people doing what govt meant to do…………

       So time for the msm to look in the mirror at how they try to influence things (think the Key years, where that slimy ar…hole got a free pass every time.
     • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2

       24 October 2020 at 11:55 am

       Ah, she's still parroting National's lie that the biggest party needs to be in government.
     • Incognito 1.2.3

       24 October 2020 at 12:26 pm

       Winston agreed to join a coalition that was backed by a majority of the public vote. He didn't eschew anything.

       Winston/NZF could have gone either way, which is why he/they were called “the Kingmaker”. National never got over it, never mounted an effective Opposition based on agonistic & positive politics, and never put effort into a competitive policy platform that is essential to present a realistic government-in-waiting. ACT, or should I say Seymour, filled the vacuum, with a referendum even, and still National did nothing. When the numbers (polls) didn’t go their way, National lost the plot completely but the seeds were sown in 2017, IMO.
     • mac1 1.2.4

       24 October 2020 at 1:35 pm

       Peters was fully telegraphing what his preference was before the election in 2017. I heard him address Grey Power at its AGM and in an electorate meeting. I am no NZF voter but I was surprised by the visceral dislike of National that he evidenced in both meetings.

       It was no surprise to me what he chose to do in 2017 in supporting Labour. I have written of this before in the Standard.

       It's a bit revisionist of writers to believe that Peters had not clearly stated his dislike of National's corporate capitalism, and its failed social policies, to mention two areas of concern to him.

       Why did he lose in 2020? He was a handbrake on social progress and both he and National wore the consequences of having poor candidates, unpopular policies and for making stupid attacks on a popular and competent government and PM.
       • Phillip ure 1.2.4.1

         24 October 2020 at 6:54 pm

         Plus of course..shane jones…
         • mac1 1.2.4.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 7:13 pm

           He is included in the category of poor candidates………
2. newsense 2

   24 October 2020 at 8:53 am

   Tim Watkin likes baiting us huh?

   While in the quote below, in a meme echoed across the media, is that the voters belong to National, but were voting 'tactically'.

   Alternatively they were voting. Collins is reviled within National and has no great or consistent philosophy, but doesn't distance far from Trump. The National rump have had scandals, disloyalty and chaos. On covid they've zig-zagged with the day.

   Looking then at Labour who have not done anything unpopular, but also didn't say- what smoke? That could have been anything! on climate change. When you start growing bananas something is happening…

   It's not tactical voting to pick the team most likely to preserve your health and job, and also who acknowledge climate change. That's just voting! No one wants Sandra Goudie PM.

   Watkin's quote

   "RNZ's Tim Watkin wrote: "With the wisdom of the crowd, centre-right voters have seen National's internal problems, looked around for a handbrake on a Labour-Greens transformative government, and landed on a fascinating champion – Labour itself."

   Or alternatively just that Labour is a better choice for health and well being. Not all of the country aspires to be NZ First. Why is a handbrake needed? The question is who’s best for the job. Jacinda has lead impressively.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/429050/week-in-politics-tactical-voting-could-have-helped-labour-s-landslide-win

   [link added. If you’re going to cut and paste a quote then please cut and post the URL as well, thanks – weka]
   • Sacha 2.1

     24 October 2020 at 9:23 am

     Link please.
   • weka 2.2

     24 October 2020 at 9:41 am

     mod note for you newsense.
   • Bearded Git 2.3

     24 October 2020 at 9:50 am

     Vance's epic failure to understand MMP.

     "The roots of this go back three years, when the caucus was shaken by Winston Peters’ decision to eschew the popular vote and support a Labour-led Government over National."

     Winston agreed to join a coalition that was backed by a majority of the public vote. He didn't eschew anything.

     (If Winston had said nice things in the campaign about the coalition partners, rather than attack them, he might still be in parliament.)
   • Bearded Git 2.4

     24 October 2020 at 9:55 am

     Tim Watkin wrote: "With the wisdom of the crowd, centre-right voters have seen National's internal problems, looked around for a handbrake on a Labour-Greens transformative government, and landed on a fascinating champion – Labour itself

     I think Watkin is talking bollocks.

     The reason why? Let's reverse the situation and say the polling is Nat 46 Lab 32 Green 8 ACT 8.

     How many Standardista's are going to vote National to keep ACT out of government in this situation? Precisely None.

     People voted for Labour because they love Jacinda and did not see Labour policies as detrimental to the economy, farmers etc
     • Phillip ure 2.4.1

       24 October 2020 at 10:22 am

       I think the election was a vote on how j.a./labour handled the covid thing…(it doesn't take much to realise the dire situation we would currently be in..had the establishment/business toadies that are national been in power when the virus arrived…)…the election was a carry-on! message from national voters dismayed at the clown-circus national had become ..this is why they voted for j.a….this hindsight-creation of a mass act of political-nuance on the part of national voters to hobble the greens by voting labour…is a big pile of steaming horseshit I.m.h.o..
       • anker 2.4.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 10:40 am

         100% Phillip
       • sumsuch 2.4.1.2

         24 October 2020 at 11:41 pm

         Ruining our economy for many years because of … a psychological quirk. Does anyone disagree? Climate Change, a slightly little off disaster that kills everything which is undermined because of the eccentricity of democracy for addressing immediate 'problems' over serious problems.

         We need the rich talk of people who believe in their ideas rather than the thin laver of forever dealing with what focus groups tell you.
     • greywarshark 2.4.2

       24 October 2020 at 10:50 am

       BG noted: Tim Watkin wrote: "With the wisdom of the crowd, centre-right voters have seen National's internal problems, looked around for a handbrake on a Labour-Greens transformative government, and landed on a fascinating champion – Labour itself

       I no longer believe in the wisdom of the masses. I think that Labour was elected on feelings of satisfaction about controlling Covid-19.

       And as for National voters making balanced, reasoned judgments about controlling government, they would have been hard-pressed to think of changing to Labour, hence ACT. The votes did go up to Labour though and I suppose someone has done the figures and posited which came from NZF, and which portion from National centrists.
       • Sacha 2.4.2.1

         24 October 2020 at 10:58 am

         someone has done the figures and posited which came from NZF, and which portion from National centrists.

         NZ does not have exit polling on election day, so for that sort of detail we need to wait for the NZ Election Survey polling to be run and analysed – won't be out until next year.
   • Muttonbird 2.5

     24 October 2020 at 10:20 am

     Bridges confirmed their new strategy yesterday on the AM show, which is to frame the huge increase in Labour's vote as 'National voters on loan'. Watkin and others are tasked with re-enforcing this fallacy.

     Voters don't belong to anyone and any politician who thinks otherwise will be punished.
     • greywarshark 2.5.1

       24 October 2020 at 10:52 am

       Voters don't belong to anyone and any politician who thinks otherwise will be punished. I think we have observed that this is not absolute truth.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.5.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 12:18 pm

         Yep.

         Some National voters really do belong to National. That's how National gets to tell their Epsom voters to vote ACT and have it work.
         • Uncle Scrim 2.5.1.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 5:28 pm

           Yes and the core Nats voters still voted for them – that's why they got 26%. Given their shambolic effort it shows how loyal some voters are. Just as Labour's core delivered them 25% in 2014. The soft centrist voters who backed Helen Clark then John Key clearly did not – the great majority of them did not do any tactical voting but weighed up the options, the world around them, and voted for the the most competent, safest, trustworthy, decent and forward-looking option on offer. Those voters (plus avoiding complacency amongst your own core constituencies) are the key to achieving percentages in the mid-40s plus.

           If we are to believe some commentators then NZ has just seen the most massive exercise in tactical voting in any democracy in decades. That wasn’t what happened.
   • francesca 2.6

     24 October 2020 at 10:29 am

     At this stage it's all opinion

     Here's another from a more credible source(in my view anyway)

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300138283/election-2020-there-is-no-evidence-national-voters-backed-labour-to-keep-the-greens-out
     • Incognito 2.6.1

       24 October 2020 at 10:45 am

       At this stage it is it wishful thinking and idle speculation, but the meme has to be cultivated before the facts come in. And after a while, some ex-National voters might start to believe the meme too and change their reasoning for their swing vote to something more ‘interesting’. Even more so, when they think they were not alone in this.
       • Sacha 2.6.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 10:48 am

         And useful idiots like Mr Watkin are.. useful in that process.
         • Morrissey 2.6.1.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 10:58 am

           Tim Watkin has often been an intelligent and incisive commentator. Sadly, however, his penchant for being "nice" and "jolly" at all times means that he has sometimes allowed himself to be manipulated by very unsavoury people. Here he is back in 2011, eager to agree with the hostile and implacable right winger Michael Bassett….

           MORA: Uhhhhhh. We don’t know what to believe. The Japanese government says that Greenpeace readings can’t be believed, and from this distance, uhhhhh, you don’t know who to believe.

           SOPHIE WRIGHT: The authorities are being transparent.

           BASSETT: People accuse the Japanese government of playing politics when in fact it is GREENPEACE that is playing politics! Greenpeace is jumping ALL OVER this. You have to weave your way between competing agendas.

           WATKIN: Mmmmmm, mmmmmm.

           MORA: Yes. Ahhhhh, Ten microcivets per hour. There are nearly seven THOUSAND microcivets from a chest X-ray.

           BASSETT: Precisely.

           MORA: Sophie Wright. She’s in Tokyo. Thank you very much for coming on The Panel! It’s 28 minutes past four. Let’s talk briefly about LIBYA! The humanitarian intervention by the United Nations—uhhhh, don’t we also have to intervene in Syria, the Ivory Coast, Zimbabwe?

           WATKIN: And Rwanda. They did nothing there.

           BASSETT: Zimbabwe. The international community hasn’t exactly covered itself in glory, has it?

           WATKIN: There’s blood on our hands!

           BASSETT: We need to remember, though, that Rwanda and Burundi were TRIBAL wars. But when there is mass slaughter, like in Libya, it’s hard to stomach from the other side of the world.

           WATKIN: Mmmmmm, mmmmmm.

           Note: Watkin did not have the nerve to bring it up, but during another mass slaughter of civilians, in Gaza in 2008-9, Bassett found it exceedingly EASY to stomach. In fact, he applauded and vociferously justified the slaughter. Mora, like Watkin, forbears from mentioning that. ….

           Open mike 31/03/2011
           • Incognito 2.6.1.1.1.1

             24 October 2020 at 11:02 am

             Please stay on the present topic, thanks.
             • Morrissey …

               24 October 2020 at 11:05 am

               The topic was Tim Watkin's credibility, or lack thereof. I pointed out that he is an intelligent journalist who has allowed himself to be misused by the likes of cynical actors such as Sophie Wright and Michael Bassett, and provided evidence that that has been happening for a considerable time.
               • Sacha …

                 24 October 2020 at 11:13 am

                 I did not see anyone claiming Watkin was credible. The word 'like' may help you understand what I was saying.
                 • Morrissey …

                   24 October 2020 at 11:16 am

                   Of course Watkin is credible. He's a serious and intelligent commentator who has unfortunately allowed himself at times to be bullied by less intelligent people on radio, such as Cameron Slater and Larry Williams.
               • Bearded Git …

                 24 October 2020 at 11:13 am

                 Agreed Morrissey…you are on-topic….and Watkin is a little too Jose Pagani-like for my taste.
                 • Incognito …

                   24 October 2020 at 11:22 am

                   Morrissey is either attacking or defending the messenger. It’s so tedious.
                   • Morrissey …

                     24 October 2020 at 11:26 am

                     And sometimes this writer, i.e. moi, is the messenger who is attacked, or defended.
                   • Incognito []

                     24 October 2020 at 11:52 am

                     And often that writer, i.e. toi, is the messenger who is criticised, and feels he has to fend off the intellectual headens who are attacking him personally as if they are doubting his personal integrity.

                     Can we now go back to the topic, again?
                   • Sacha …

                     24 October 2020 at 11:39 am

                     Also applies to Vance: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/eleanor_roosevelt_385439

                     Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
               • Incognito …

                 24 October 2020 at 11:18 am

                 Excellent rebuttal and now we can go back to the topic at hand, yes?
                 • Morrissey …

                   24 October 2020 at 11:20 am

                   Fair enough, my friend.

                   http://gif-free.com/uploads/posts/2018-02/1519648251_kissing-rabbits.gif
         • newsense 2.6.1.1.2

           24 October 2020 at 2:43 pm

           He's a good commentator and producer, who does a fair bit of trolling standardists.
         • newsense 2.6.1.1.3

           24 October 2020 at 2:52 pm

           Should be someone out there countering this view. The leadership's emphasis on Key's legacy, fiscal responsibility, and governing for first time voters plays into this. It allows another version of centre to come along, flank on the left with a PR policy and then the campaign is they're all the same, get the original.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.6.1.2

         24 October 2020 at 12:21 pm

         but the meme has to be cultivated before the facts come in.

         Yep, can't let the facts get in the way of what National wants.
   • xanthe 2.7

     24 October 2020 at 11:57 am

     Well this does raise the question . What percentage of the never greens vote normally see national as the best way to achieve a no greens outcome.

     It is very likely that the combination of the Greens campaign of calling labour "national lite" and collins campaign of "the greens will steer labour" together with the collapse of the national vote drove these people towards labour.

     It is also possible that Ardern can hold these votes thru 2023
     • Bearded Git 2.7.1

       24 October 2020 at 12:15 pm

       So Xanthe, in the scenario I describe above, if National were being labelled "Labour light" would you vote for National? I think not.
       • xanthe 2.7.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 6:53 pm

         no actually i dont believe the green framing of labour. rather I accept Jacindas position that for real change we need to take the people with us. …… but dont for one minute think i forgive rogernomics or the failure of labour to reverse. I just dont believe the Greens have a fricking clue how to move forward!
         • sumsuch 2.7.1.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 11:44 pm

           Agree, Flower.
     • newsense 2.7.2

       24 October 2020 at 2:54 pm

       James Shaw needs to shine this term and take environmentalism to those red/blue electorates.
       • xanthe 2.7.2.1

         24 October 2020 at 6:49 pm

         and replace marama with a person who has integrity ,charisma and is Green!
         • solkta 2.7.2.1.1

           25 October 2020 at 9:45 am

           Could you give some examples of how Marama lacks integrity and is not Green? No, thought not.
           • weka 2.7.2.1.1.1

             25 October 2020 at 10:09 am

             can't see the wood for the trees.
           • xanthe 2.7.2.1.1.2

             25 October 2020 at 6:17 pm

             so you are not disputing that she has no charisma?
             • solkta …

               25 October 2020 at 6:26 pm

               I think such a judgement is more subjective. To me she does. Now, can you answer my question? No, thought not.
3. Morrissey 3

   24 October 2020 at 9:08 am

   Russiagate True Believer Kim Hill delivers the absurd P.C. moment of the week

   RNZ, Friday 23 Oct. 2020, 4:10 p.m. (station promo between news and weather)

   KIM HILL: Tomorrow morning I'm talking to Russian author Masha Gesson on their book Surviving Autocracy.

   ????!!!??? Their book?
   • In Vino 3.1

     24 October 2020 at 9:11 am

     Well, we have to allow for the case of Masha being schizophrenic…
     • Morrissey 3.1.1

       24 October 2020 at 9:20 am

       Well, we have to allow for the case of Masha being schizophrenic…

       Ha ha ha! She has just said, perhaps in jest, that Trump was possibly foisted on the American people by Russia. Poor old Kim Hill didn't even demur.

       She lives in Dumbo—Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass. Another nice place name along with Soweto, Tribeca, and SoHo.
       • Morrisseye' 3.1.1.1

         24 October 2020 at 9:31 am

         Right now Masha Gesson is pointing out that the Russian interference in the election was unsophisticated, and she's impatient with the ridiculous obsession with it by the Democratic leadership and media—including the likes of True Believer Hill.

         Hill is clearly uncomfortable. Right now Masha Gesson is pointing out how incompetent Robert Mueller was. How she must wish she had on someone amenable to her cosy conspiracy theories instead of an intelligent journalist like Gesson, who has just corrected Hill in the most embarrassing manner: "You know, I wouldn't call Trump benign."
         • weka 3.1.1.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 9:43 am

           please fix your name with your next comment.
           • Morrissey 3.1.1.1.1.1

             24 October 2020 at 9:44 am

             Thanks weka!
             • weka …

               24 October 2020 at 9:44 am

               
         • greywarshark 3.1.1.1.2

           24 October 2020 at 10:54 am

           Morrisseye' – take your pills now.
           • Morrissey 3.1.1.1.2.1

             24 October 2020 at 11:03 am

             Could you explain what you mean, please, Shark? Are you offended by my failure to endorse the Russiagate conspiracy theory peddled by the DNC? Then you must also have been offended by Masha Gessen this morning as she pointed out to Kim Hill how exaggerated and foolish the whole campaign was.
       • Phillip ure 3.1.1.2

         24 October 2020 at 10:32 am

         Kinda hard to look past the factors of russian intelligence honey-trapping trump when he was in moscow.. and that he was bailed out by russia(ns) when he was going down the financial gurgler in the 80's…plus his laundering of russian oligarch/mob money by flogging them his properties since then…would have to make him the nearest to a manchurian candidate america has seen…you'd think..?
         • Morrissey 3.1.1.2.1

           24 October 2020 at 10:44 am

           You were doing well until you got to the batshit "Manchurian candidate" nonsense. Unless you’ve smoked too much of that Hokianga Hydroponic, you don't actually believe that hogwash, so why make out like you're some hapless staffer in Nancy Pelosi's office?
           • Incognito 3.1.1.2.1.1

             24 October 2020 at 10:48 am

             I can hear an ad homming bee buzzing around
           • Phillip ure 3.1.1.2.1.2

             24 October 2020 at 11:00 am

             Do I believe that Putin has a firm grip on trumps' gonads..?..yes..I do…(heh..!..if that makes me a 'staffer in Nancy pelosis' office’.?..so be it..)
             • Morrissey …

               24 October 2020 at 11:09 am

               Staffers in Nancy Pelosi's office at least have the excuse of having to do it as a condition of their employment; they fall in line or they don't have a job. You have no such excuse for indulging in such foolishness.
           • Gabby 3.1.1.2.1.3

             24 October 2020 at 11:24 am

             Sure, he just owes some foreign oligarchs some favours, no harm in that.
             • Morrissey …

               24 October 2020 at 11:27 am

               Big difference between that, which is no doubt true, and the insane and evidence-free theory that he is a Russian asset.
               • Gabby …

                 24 October 2020 at 11:37 am

                 Well, he's no liability to them. If they got him cheap, bully for them.
               • Stuart Munro …

                 24 October 2020 at 12:44 pm

                 As has been said of Mitch McConnell, Trump is not an asset to anyone.

                 The suggestion that Putin would scruple to exploit a vulnerable person like Trump to further his nefarious ends however, is laughable.
           • Peter 3.1.1.2.1.4

             24 October 2020 at 12:15 pm

             Is Hokianga Hydroponic the sort of stuff which would have me listening to someone say hundreds of thousands of words, find a couple from the flow of a busy morning like 'their book' and subject it to forensic analysis?
             • Sacha …

               24 October 2020 at 12:18 pm

               P is a terrible thing.
             • Morrissey …

               24 October 2020 at 1:29 pm

               Ms. Hill's foolish exercise in language abuse occurred in a brief (five seconds max) promo for her show. Where do you get the idea I listened to "hundreds of thousands of words" to find that example of foolishness?
             • Morrissey …

               24 October 2020 at 1:33 pm

               Ms. Hill's ridiculous exercise in language abuse occurred in a brief (five seconds max) promo for her show. Where do you get the idea I listened to "hundreds of thousands of words" to find that example of foolishness?
               • Incognito …

                 24 October 2020 at 2:15 pm

                 Getting one word wrong hardly is an “exercise in language abuse” and your ‘suffering’ cannot have been longer than the five seconds the promo lasted although it may felt like eternity to you. I’m quite sure that Kim Hill did not embark on her ‘abusive tirade’ to hurt you personally. You could send her another e-mail to confirm. Please get over this and move on.
                 • sumsuch …

                   24 October 2020 at 11:50 pm

                   Kim was a great hero during the many dark years of rich-rule after our social democracy. Why RNZ had to admit Richard whatisname.
                 • Sacha …

                   25 October 2020 at 8:19 am

                   Hill did not get the word wrong. Quite deliberate, ruffling some who are set in their ways.
                   • Incognito …

                     25 October 2020 at 2:30 pm

                     Sinking lid approach does work best when done in subtle ways.
       • Phillip ure 3.1.1.3

         24 October 2020 at 1:11 pm

         Trump has long held ambitions to be president…back in the 1980's he was a regular on the late-nite talks show's .(letterman et.al…). .and back then he often beat the presidential-ambitions drum..he was laughed at/humoured…but that is also what 'the apprentice' was all about ..him showing the american people/his future base that he was a strong leader ..and him becoming a household name..it was all part of the plan..
         • Phillip ure 3.1.1.3.1

           24 October 2020 at 1:22 pm

           The other thread to trump is his connections to/long record of working with the mafia/mob..back in the 80's again he built skyscrapers in Manhatten…using undocumented/illegal workers..now you don't get to do such things in Manhatten unless you are in tight with the teamsters union..who control the building and garbage collection industries in Manhatten..and the teamsters are the union wing of the mob..and of course casinos in Atlantic City were a major means of money-laundering…trump is so bent ..he is like a human paperclip…
   • Sacha 3.2

     24 October 2020 at 9:27 am

     Pronouns, Breen. Not a hard concept.
     • weka 3.2.1

       24 October 2020 at 9:44 am

       their comment suggests it might be for them.
     • Morrissey 3.2.2

       24 October 2020 at 9:45 am

       Was Kim Hill confused, you think? Did she think Masha Gesson was possibly a male?
       • Sacha 3.2.2.1

         24 October 2020 at 9:46 am

         There is only one confused person here.
         • Morrissey 3.2.2.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 10:39 am

           You're quite right there, Sacha. Every one of yous.
       • Incognito 3.2.2.2

         24 October 2020 at 10:38 am

         Well, there’s Masha Gesson and there’s Masha Gessen so I can see why one would be confused. Perhaps you could ask Professor Longhair.
         • Morrissey 3.2.2.2.1

           24 October 2020 at 10:42 am

           Thanks for the correction, Mr. Cognito. You're on to as usual.

           https://media1.tenor.com/images/2b6138c8abd50d00965e784d948a88df/tenor.gif?itemid=4733491
     • In Vino 3.2.3

       24 October 2020 at 11:18 am

       Just to pour some oil of pedantry upon the fires of controversy, 'their' is not a pronoun. It is a possessive adjective. The pronoun is 'theirs', as in, "Our book is better than theirs," 'Theirs' can stand by itself, as a pronoun should be able to.

       'Their' is only a possessive adjective, and needs the noun 'book' with it.

       So their there.
       • Morrissey 3.2.3.1

         24 October 2020 at 11:23 am

         Careful, In Vino: although of course you are correct, there are some around here who are unhappy with using simple words like his or her.
         • Sacha 3.2.3.1.1

           24 October 2020 at 11:42 am

           Things have moved on beyond Northcote's sepia bounds.
           • Morrissey 3.2.3.1.1.1

             24 October 2020 at 3:43 pm

             You're welcome to slip within Northcote Point's sepia bounds at any time, Sacha.

             https://media1.tenor.com/images/aedf0a83eba45622947b6c988131ded1/tenor.gif?itemid=4731328
4. Morrissey 4

   24 October 2020 at 11:13 am

   Lest We Forget: R.I.P. Journalism in the United States and Britain

   Ten years since WikiLeaks and Julian Assange published the Iraq War Logs…

   https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/10/23/pers-o23.html
5. joe90 5

   24 October 2020 at 1:06 pm

   A dog and a scraped plate…

   TRUMP’S EYES WHEN BIDEN SAID “COCAINE!” Omg! 😳 #DebateTonight pic.twitter.com/wNJNsHmeOl

   — Melissa Cruz (@MelissaWrites22) October 23, 2020
   • Sacha 5.1

     24 October 2020 at 1:09 pm

     Did you like the follow-up explanation?

     Anyone who's ever done blow knows it usually makes you poop soon after those first fat rails. Over time, just hearing the word 'cocaine' or thinking about it can trigger you into a bm. The more you know.🌈

     — GenXresists🆘️😷👊🏼👊🏿🗽⚖🇺🇸🏳️‍🌈☮♀️🌐🌊 (@jenxliberty) October 23, 2020
     • joe90 5.1.1

       24 October 2020 at 1:14 pm

       The better the blow, the greater the urge, apparently.
   • Phillip ure 5.2

     24 October 2020 at 1:38 pm

     That is very funny…that clip..
6. Phillip ure 6

   24 October 2020 at 1:44 pm

   I think I have figured out what biden is good at…gape-mouthed goldfish impersonations..he has it nailed..I’d also like to see his take on kermit the frog .
7. greywarshark 7

   24 October 2020 at 1:49 pm

   Anxiety outside the USA. I have wondered whether music might offer us a road out of our mind-prison under fascist neoliberal rule. Maybe this guy can advise us.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429085/i-am-how-music-helped-a-young-tongan-lawyer-with-anxiety
8. greywarshark 8

   24 October 2020 at 1:58 pm

   Anxiety inside the USA – the flow of money to rich men's pockets is being strangled. This from Gordon Campbell on Scoop featuring the famous Koch Brothers. Dah dah. They recently featured in something else being done along with some other rich person. Funny how some names keep coming up, like yesterday's dinner.

   Herd immunity has recently bounced back into the headlines as a tool for managing Covid-19, and as a supposed alternative to lockdowns. In the US, a group of scientists was recently brought together in the town of Great Barrington, Massachusetts by a think tank funded by the Koch brothers. The assembled scientists signed the so called Barrington Declaration, which promotes herd immunity as a rational means of re-opening US public schools and the economy at large..

   https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2010/S00134/on-why-herd-immunity-isnt-a-valid-option-and-whats-with-our-reluctance-to-wear-masks.htm

   …The Declaration has found a receptive ear at the White House where Dr Scott Atlas has become Donald Trump’s most trusted health advisor on the pandemic, and Trump’s main scientific advocate against lockdowns.

   Atlas is a neurologist, and has no expertise in infectious diseases.

   (If he is a neurologist, then he might be able to keep an eye on Mr T-rump's condition, and prevent his prime excesses.)
   • Treetop 8.1

     24 October 2020 at 8:42 pm

     In the US the death toll has reached 224,000. By the end of the year this figure could double. Daily infections are nearly at the same rate as in March with the first wave. Aljazeera reported this today. It would be hard to be a health worker in the heavily infected countries. The pace would be exhausting and time out is required to recharge. With the flu season approaching there is going to be a shortage of beds and staff.

     The waiting list is growing for other health related matters.

     Is herd immunity the answer in the US and how would the care of those infected be managed?

     There is no quick fix.
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       24 October 2020 at 9:21 pm

       I think the President adopts the 'don't look at it and it might go away' response. As for herd immunity I have read professionals that sound informed saying that there isn't going to be any such thing with this virus. We will have to try and preserve our system as long as we can and try and become a fairer society, and look after our front line staff in particular. I don't know if we can get fixes for things now, new problems will keep rolling along and people switch off or get stuck on one point and get obsessed; just do our best and be resigned to change.
       • Treetop 8.1.1.1

         25 October 2020 at 7:58 am

         Today just after 7am on RNZ a Professor McClean an expert microbiologist on Covid.
         • Treetop 8.1.1.1.1

           25 October 2020 at 8:05 am

           Mc Lean a molecular immunologist.
9. joe90 9

   24 October 2020 at 2:05 pm

   As suspected, right wing white supremacists exploited legitimate protest. But BLM bad.

   /

   In the wake of protests following the May 25 killing of George Floyd, a member of the “Boogaloo Bois” opened fire on Minneapolis Police Third Precinct with an AK-47-style gun and screamed “Justice for Floyd” as he ran away, according to a federal complaint made public Friday.

   A sworn affidavit by the FBI underlying the complaint reveals new details about a far-right anti-government group’s coordinated role in the violence that roiled through civil unrest over Floyd’s death while in police custody.

   Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old from Boerne, Texas, is charged with one count of interstate travel to incite a riot for his alleged role in ramping up violence during the protests in Minneapolis on May 27 and 28. According to charges, Hunter, wearing a skull mask and tactical gear, shot 13 rounds at the south Minneapolis police headquarters while people were inside. He also looted and helped set the building ablaze, according to the complaint, which was filed Monday under seal.

   […]

   Two hours after the police precinct was set on fire, Hunter texted with another Boogaloo member in California, a man named Steven Carrillo.

   “Go for police buildings,” Hunter told Carrillo, according to charging documents.

   “I did better lol,” he replied. A few hours earlier, Carrillo had killed a Federal Protective Services Officer in Oakland, Calif., according to criminal charges filed against him in California.

   https://www.startribune.com/charges-boogaloo-bois-fired-on-mpls-precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/
10. Whispering Kate 10

    24 October 2020 at 3:36 pm

    Off topic here. Have just come in from a 2 hour trip- – out with a friend op shopping and generally looking in different shops and timeout for lunch. This is Auckland North Shore and I can tell you the attitude of our residents here is total apathy towards masks, using tracer apps and using the hand sanitiser left out by shop owners. Young and old just ignoring common sense. It was so mind boggling we ended up quite pissed off excuse the language.

    I even asked one retailer if he could move his stand with the hand sanitiser, app icon and board for entering your name etc with a pen further out into the doorway so patrons couldn't miss the darned thing. We are such an ungrateful ignorant lot we don't deserve to be virus almost-free as we are right now.

    We both have loved ones overseas in hot spots – South America and US and both are trapped in their homes and have people dying everywhere around them and its heartbreaking that we are using and abusing our privileged status here with so many pig-ignorant people ignoring what they need to do. Sorry folks but this incoming Government and poor St. Ashley have their jobs cut out. Enough kindness. We outlawed non-belt wearing in cars and we now need emergency powers brought in for the duration of this virus outbreak and have it mandated that mask wearing, hand sanitising and app using is to be applied. We obviously are simple minded and need to be trained like children.

    Here endeth the lesson.
    • Kay 10.1

      24 October 2020 at 4:21 pm

      Not off-topic at all and +1000. Clearly the lesson hasn't sunk in yet 🙁
    • Anne 10.2

      24 October 2020 at 4:53 pm

      … its heartbreaking that we are using and abusing our privileged status here with so many pig-ignorant people ignoring what they need to do.

      I don't know where on the Shore you live but in the Devonport/Belmont area the wearing of masks and hand sanitising has been excellent. Yes, people are not wearing masks to the same extent since we dropped to level 1, but I think most people wash their hands and sanitise before leaving home and then do it again when they return. I also carry antiseptic wet cloths in my car as I suspect many other people do. In our local supermarket people are using the apps all the time or signing in, but I have noticed some retailers are no longer leaving forms for people to sign.

      I think you are being a bit unfair to many "simple minded" adults. When we dropped to level 1 we were no longer expected to wear masks all the time when away from home. I've stopped wearing them because I don't go anywhere that might be considered unsafe and the same probably goes for most older people anyway.

      What community outbreaks we have experienced were confined to specific circumstances and small groups which did not affect the vast majority of the population. If another community outbreak does occur, mask wearing will immediately become mandatory at all times again – at least in the region or regions that are affected.
      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        24 October 2020 at 5:11 pm

        Whispering Kate I agree that people will have to be forced by regulation, we just aren't a concerned society, except for a short time, or on special occasions. I have to force myself to comply, forget so often. But I keep trying to get into the habit – I see the numbers overseas shooting up. And the effect on the people, the strain on the funeral/burial system, and on the culture generally is not reported much here.
        • Anne 10.2.1.1

          25 October 2020 at 11:31 am

          The point I'm making greywarshark : it is unfair to claim the attitude in my part of the country (the North Shore) is one of total apathy. And the NS would be typical of any other place.

          It is precisely because the vast majority of NZers complied with the rules at each level that we are in a superior position now than most of the rest of the world.

          We're at level 1 now. To assume people are not taking precautions by washing their hands and using sanitiser etc. is a step too far imo. If you're going direct to a store or supermarket and you have already 'washed and sanitised' then you don't have to do it again. Sure, some people need to be reminded every now and then but the government and MoH have already got that well in hand.
          • greywarshark 10.2.1.1.1

            27 October 2020 at 1:51 pm

            Sorry didn't get back to this. It is easy to generalise but as I sanitise my hands at the supermarket I don't see others, not the men going past. And yet sometimes i think I have just washed mine so don't do it. But I do like the freedom to get out and about and I think too many are taking it for granted. I haven't got an ap but if I did it prob wouldn't work on my phone. What's best to do. .. I must practice wearing my mask though.
    • weka 10.3

      24 October 2020 at 5:25 pm

      I'm in two minds about this. None of those things are compulsory under L1. It doesn't make sense for the whole country to be doing all those things all of the time. Down south people certainly aren't (there was no social distancing and no-one seemed to be using the handsanitiser, and def no masks when I voted on election day).

      While I can see the case for being more careful the closer one is to a hot spot (and during public holidays where people travel a lot), there is also the issue of maintaining such behaviour for the long haul and indefinitely (bearing in mind we don't know if/when a vaccine will be available). It's hard to get compliance when people perceive the risk as small, and it's better that we are socialised in to acting when the situation is more urgent so that if we have widespread community transmission again people will do the right thing more quickly and more thoroughly.

      Mostly it's an odds game rather than a black and white one.

      The govt already has the power to mandate actions during a pandemic. I for one and glad they are not using those unless necessary, all sorts of good reasons for the govt to not over use those powers.

      One thing I'd like to see is more limits in travel between areas when there is potential community transmission. But I'm not sure it's warranted yet, and there are the same compliance and fatigue issues. I'm also not sure if it is fair to places like Auckland which will have a higher risk because of population.
      • greywarshark 10.3.1

        24 October 2020 at 9:29 pm

        Not wearing masks gets us thinking we are on our own planet. Then we start complaining because precautions still have to be taken, then the government becomes a whipping boy. We take so many things for granted in NZ – the complacency towards others with problems is amazing, and particularly to the needy in NZ.

        However the government can keep the mask thing in their back pocket and when someone is putting pressure on to open our borders for this or that, they can say well everyone will have to start wearing masks. It is so easy for the transmission to occur – they will have to become mandatory when travelling, in groups etc.
        • weka 10.3.1.1

          24 October 2020 at 11:19 pm

          mask wearing seems reasonable with increased population density, and prolonged contact. On a bus that will take 20 mins to get to its destination for instance.

          People walking down Queens St at lunch time vs the main street of Gore mid afternoon.

          If we don't take things like into account people will get intolerant and less willing.
      • joe90 10.3.2

        24 October 2020 at 10:40 pm

        Mostly it's an odds game rather than a black and white one.

        Helluva game.

        Researchers from two Japanese universities have released video,
        created using a supercomputer, showing how humans spread respiratory droplets. #droplets #simulation #covid19 #ctvnews pic.twitter.com/VQVPgyRv2T

        — CTV News (@CTVNews) October 24, 2020
        • weka 10.3.2.1

          24 October 2020 at 11:16 pm

          what are the different colour droplets?
        • weka 10.3.2.2

          24 October 2020 at 11:23 pm

          "Helluva game."

          Right. So we can see the droplet spread there, but the odds game is whether any of those mannequins have covd, what the viral load is, whether they cough into their arm or not and so on. Is it reasonable to expect 5m people to wear a mask when around other humans because there is one case of community transmission in NZ? I don't think so. The public health approach to containment is working with the odds, not the absolutes, and the various strategies are designed to catch and limit spread as quickly as possible without crashing the economy or driving people crazy.
      • Anne 10.3.3

        25 October 2020 at 11:33 am

        Excellent response @10.3 and 10.3.2.2. Thank-you weka.
    • Patricia Bremner 10.4

      24 October 2020 at 8:38 pm

      100% Whispering Kate.
11. greywarshark 11

    24 October 2020 at 5:24 pm

    Newton Central School stopped its walking bus three years ago after several near misses and after abuse was hurled at children by some cyclists on the northwestern cycleway.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429096/it-s-a-really-dangerous-place-school-s-plea-for-cycleway-upgrade

    "We've actually had one or two children being hit. We've had members of our community that have had serious injuries. It's a really dangerous place – children and bicycles don't mix," he said.

    "No one wants to have a child get hurt or injured. This is an accident waiting to happen…

    A parent at the school, Phoebe Greenbrook-Held, said Auckland Transport tried to educate cyclists about using their bell and giving children a wide berth, but this was not treating the root problem….

    “Unfortunately all those fixes are just short term – within a few months cyclist behaviour reverts. We really need the cycleway to be broadened, so children are safe to walk, cycle and scoot while adults do their commute to work.”
    She said adult cyclists are the main culprits."

    Obvious – the two modes of mobility are incompatible, and it's a 'loss of commons' to put cycles on footpaths, without a fence or something physical separating and providing safety for pedestrians and clear pathway for the others – and not just a line on the path!
12. joe90 12

    24 October 2020 at 6:41 pm

    ACT's an arsehole magnet #eleventy seven.

    'unlike me, most beneficiaries can't be trusted. also, we can totally trust parents to use taxpayer money on private schools, as intended' pic.twitter.com/ydeD4hrtG8

    — lachlan 💚🍉 (@lachlandcp) October 23, 2020
    • greywarshark 12.1

      24 October 2020 at 9:47 pm

      That 'lifestyle choice' is the grind the right came out with in the 1980s – haven't they thought of anything since then? They must show the acolytes and newbies a propaganda video, and teach them some phrases to utter like parrots. When certain words come on they’ll have a Pavlovian reaction. Woof woof the tui (see on google) looked bright and beady-eyed and handsome and had a better vocabulary. Use him or her as a mascot for a young left movement!

      (The Baillie mentioned is a teacher of sorts in Nelson, by the way.)
    • Patricia Bremner 12.2

      24 October 2020 at 10:16 pm

      People can not be trusted with a benefit, but will be trusted with an Education Grant?

      Wow!! some disconnect there!!
13. Sacha 13

    24 October 2020 at 9:31 pm

    How Tova sees her famed JLR encounter: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/24/tova-obrien-my-feral-interview-with-covid-19-denier-jami-lee-ross

    I was just doing my job that morning and the interview did not happen in a vacuum. Journalists all over the world have been calling out lies relating to Covid-19, especially when they’re adopted by powerful figures attempting to legitimise falsehoods.

    They are the journalists who have inspired me my entire career – journalists who know that sometimes balanced reporting isn’t just about providing both sides of the story. It is simply about the facts – the truth.
    • joe90 13.1

      24 October 2020 at 9:52 pm

      boom

      Ross came into the studio for the interview, sat down and said to me: “You’re going to be nice to me aren’t you Tova? You have to be nice to losers.” I was familiar with this entitled, cloying tone from Ross.

      No, I replied. I largely tore up the prepared questions.
    • weka 13.2

      24 October 2020 at 11:24 pm

      that was a super interesting read. Perhaps TO and other journos should explain what they do more often.

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