Open mike 24/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 24th, 2022 - 136 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

136 comments on “Open mike 24/10/2022 ”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    The Leader of the Free World…..or so we are lead to believe, tells us “America can be defined in a single word”…here it is, straight from the horses mouth….

    [note: Joe Biden has a lifelong speech impediment that included stuttering. The word he was about to say is ‘possibilities’ – weka]

    • Peter 1.1

      If he were the Cognitive Genius his predecessor was it would've come out much easier.

      Trump: "America can be defined in a single word, 'Mine."

    • weka 1.2

      disability shaming, charming. I’m guessing it’s ageism as well.

      For those interested,

      • aj 1.2.1

        I've heard many of Bidens's speechs over the years and stuttering is a very minor issue for him. It's the 'other issue' – I'm not sure if he's quite up to Shadbolt's level yet but getting very very close.

        • weka

          Here's the fuller clip of Biden. Sounds like a stutter to me.

        • weka

          imo, that tweet and video is ageist bullshit. If Biden is struggling because he is elderly, then you cannot demonstrate that in sound bite vid and implication.

          If he has dementia, likewise.

          Elderly people process information and spatial awareness differently than younger people. Doesn't mean they can't think or function.

        • SPC

          The ancient Egyptians use to have a test of a Pharaoh's fitness to rule in their 30th year – he had to run a distance within a set time.

          PS Biden would beat Trump over any distance in terms of mobility. I mention this because Hu Jintao could barely walk by himself. Reagan had issues during his second term as to ability to handle concentration (stay awake) for long periods.

          Biden has a combination of historic speech impediment and aging (part processing his thoughts cogently and part information overload from all those years on Capitol Hill) – that would tend to compound the problem on the communication side.

    • Incognito 1.3

      When confronted with cheap shots by lazy thinkers who judge a lifelong speech impediment as a sure sign of cognitive decline to suit their Trumpian populist propaganda narrative it is never hard to counter it with blissful facts:

      Or with informative and even historically fairly accurate quality entertainment:

      • Shanreagh 1.3.1

        Good grief ageism, pot shots at disability, cheap and nasty shots at Maaris. What are we on about. This is a snarky horrible thread.

        It is Labour Day. We are lucky to have had it for long and to have forward thinkers. doers. change-ers from way back when.

        Can we emulate those people? It is better than falling prey to the Moaning Minnie Virus that still seems to have us in its clutches.

        I thought it was linked pathologically to the Covid virus when this moaning became fulsome. But it seem to have come in coincidently.

        • Incognito

          Much moaning is not on-topic per se but a sign (symptom) of people under pressure. Another example is people snapping at others over trivial things that is generally uncalled for, out of proportion, and out of character. Unfortunately, it does have a contagious element as it spreads itself like a virus. Here on TS most seem to be fairly immune to it – the Mods can isolate & quarantine the super-spreaders aka concern trolls when necessary, but this is a last resort measure as it conflicts with freedoms that we hold high here.

    • Francesca 1.4

      Now look here Adrian, are you suggesting that someone whose mental powers are declining shouldn't have access to the nuclear codes?

      Cos thats just ageist and cognitive deficit shaming .So what if he says his son Beau died in the Iraq war.He just misspoke, thats all, no reflection on the man who holds the fate of the world in his hands.

  2. X Socialist 2

    Mr Kruger reiterates Te Urewera is no longer a National Park. And rebuilding those huts? Yeah, good luck with that. Given the move back to nature so beloved by Greenies and Maori; in principle anyway, my guess is huts are a thing of the past. So it'll probably be back to the future with tents.

    • Incognito 2.1

      What is the Māori word for “tent”? Just asking, for a freedom-camping friend who wants to book one.

      • Shanreagh 2.1.1

        Why not go on Freecycle and ask for one free. Then contact Tuhoe to find out the real picture? Or you could ask them about bivvys. smiley wink

        Best to practice putting the tent up before you leave. Te Urewera, contrary to what some seem to imply, is not a 'walk in the park'. Apart from round the lake(which has its moments), climbing Panekiri, and the trip to Lake Ruapani it can be bush whacking and not country for the unprepared.

        Apart from walking in to Maungapohatu I have not done any of the tracks from the Ruatahuna/Waimana northern end. In my day these were serious difficult tracks used by hunters and possum trappers.

        All the while when visiting in those days you were aware that it was someone's home. People lived in the area when it was a National Park. This is an important difference to many other NZ National parks.

        Have we all got so entitled that this means nothing now?

        Family anecdote 'Children of the mist' was what Elsdon Best called them and Maungapohatu sums this up.

        Maungapōhatu is the sacred mountain of Ngāi Tūhoe. In times long ago, when gods walked the earth and men possessed strange powers, there lived a woman called Hine-pūkohu-rangi, the personification of mist and fog. Her younger sister was Hine-wai, the personification of light, misty rain. It was Hine-pūkohu-rangi who enticed Te Maunga (the mountain) to earth. From their union came Pōtiki I, the ancestor of Ngā Pōtiki, one of the tribes occupying the land before the arrival of the Mataatua canoe. And so Tūhoe claim they are descended from their environment: the rugged bush ranges of the Urewera and the white mist clouds that cover them. '

        My family farmed up close to the boundary of Tuhoe country and my grandfather said they were aptly named as 'children of the mist' just appearing, seemingly from no-where. A tribute to their bush skills/directions.

        • bwaghorn

          Nice,I spent my early child hood on the toe of te uruwera, rode my horse up the horomanga to midway hut a couple of times before I was 11.

          • Shanreagh

            Yes….horses are the thing. My Uncle had a block behind Ohuka and he and my Aunt used to ride across country with children doubled up to visit grandparents. My grandmother used to sew the clothes for the little ones, my cousins. then they would ride back. You think it looks far away but much closer to go overland than into Wairoa, out the Napier Road then up past Raupunga.

            Going up the Horomanga would have been great, far bit of river walking for you and the horse…..

        • Koff

          Walked up from Taneatua to Ruatahuna, camping all the way, years ago, then spent 2 days trying to hitch out of Ruatahuna, eventually getting the NZ Railways bus on its once a week route along SH38. I don't like to see DOC huts being removed and not being replaced, but it should be pointed out that the back country hut system in NZ remains unique. Many other well known tramping/hiking trails around the world you just camp wherever you can, whatever the weather throws at you.

  3. Sabine 3

    Is there a reason why the home page seems stuck on 21/10?

  4. pat 4

    The decline extends past energy

    "Clearly, that was an unwarranted assumption. New Zealand’s education system – once celebrated as one of the most successful in the world – is in free-fall. By all the recognised international comparators, we are failing – and failing fast. So bad have things become that it is increasingly difficult to find a sufficient number of willing and able participants to make our international test-results robust enough, statistically, to stand comparison. In a telling sign of the times, this dearth of suitable participants is being presented by some school principals as a signal that it is time for New Zealand to abandon international comparisons altogether."

    We can add our health system to the growing list.

    Real world consequences of resource scarcity.

    • psych nurse 4.1

      You can blame "National Standards" for this result, educationalists said this would happen when introduced by National ten or so years ago.

      • X Socialist 4.1.1

        How so, PN?

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Are 'National Standards' (partly) to blame?
          Your guess is probably as good as mine, in principle anyway smiley

          Study raises concerns about National Standards [28 Nov 2013]
          NZ Principals' Federation president Phil Harding said: "[The report is] confirmation [that] all the dire warnings and the negative consequences of this national standards policy are coming true.

          "The only fix is a dramatic re-think of the policy. We've now got a high-stakes model … this is damaging the New Zealand education system and it's no better than a national test."

          A spokeswoman for Minister of Education Hekia Parata said she would not be able to comment as she had not read the report.

          National Standards 2016: Retrospective Insights, Continuing Uncertainties and New Questions
          New Zealand’s National Standards policy has been deeply controversial in the education sector, especially amongst primary teachers and principals. This article provides a view of the National Standards from their introduction up until 2016, nearly a decade after they were first mooted.

          National Standards
          The Principals’ Federation has for some time been outspoken about its concerns and the risks its members see in the Government’s National Standards Policy. To this end it joined in the Forum hosted by the New Zealand Educational Institute in November 2009.
          The forum believes that national standards represent considerable risk to student learning and identified various themes and actions. In support of members around the country and those regional associations who wish to share their initiatives, the NZPF has made this page available as a resource to all.

          • Belladonna

            I agree that it's virtually impossible to separate out National Standards as possible cause for dropping educational levels – from all of the other potential causes.

            The actual data seems to show virtually a flat-line in student achievement during the period when National Standards were implemented.

            For what it's worth, the national data shows virtually no change in the proportions of students at or above national standards so far – flat at 78 per cent in reading, 75 per cent in maths and 71 per cent in writing in each of the past three years for which data has been published.


            This could mean a lot of things, e.g.:

            • National Standards had zero impact (it was, after all a measurement tool – not a teaching one)
            • National standards improvements offset declines in student achievement due to other causes.
            • Teachers were deliberately undermining National Standards by inflating results (see article link for the 'poor quality' of the data reported)
            • National Standards needed a generation to embed in (changing teacher practice is a lot harder and takes a lot longer than changing reporting practices).

            Having had a child going through Primary school during the period when National Standards were implemented and then removed – I can say that my experience was that communication over a child's progress was enormously better, when teachers were required to report against National Standards.

            Once that requirement was removed – school 'reports' went back to meaningless jargon – and I was literally told that a child who was clearly struggling with Maths was 'trucking along in his maths group'

            [NB: this was poor teaching, rather than inability – a tutor soon brought him up to speed, and he achieves at, or slightly above his peer group at secondary school. My issue with the teacher/school wasn't the poor teaching (well, it was, but that's another story), it was that they apparently *didn't even see there was a problem*]

            This article from 2016 seems to indicate that having to report to the MoE on kids not achieving, made schools focus greater attention on those kids.


            And, of course, teachers and principals hated National Standards – it made it possible to compare the results achieved by individual teachers and schools. (Comparing the average achievement rate for a class at the beginning of the year, with the average rate at the end of the year – tells you whether that teacher is making a significant difference, is average, or performs worse than average. You can even be more nuanced – and look at the individual or group improvement rates – e.g. Is this teacher good at bringing up kids to average level, but doesn't extend the high achievers, or the other way around.)

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              And, of course, teachers and principals hated National Standards…

              If that's the case, then 'National Standards' operated under a severe handicap. It does beg the question – why would the Gnats enact policy they knew would be "hated" by those charged with implementing it – seems a tad sadistic to me.

              There is renewed interest in studying sadism as a personality trait. Sadism joins with subclinical psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism to form the so-called “dark tetrad” of personality.

              I wonder what proportion of Kiwi MPs (of any political flavour) with children sent/send them to private schools – 'worked for me'? Education eh – what a business!

              School Privatisation: A Review and Critique [1996]

              • Probably not a vast number.

                In NZ we have the post-code lottery for schooling as well as health. If you live in a wealthy area your local school is likely to approach private schools for quality of education (think of the high ratings of Epsom Girls Grammar or Auckland Grammar in Auckland – I'm sure you can plug in the names of the rich area schools in your home town).

                Overseas (UK for example) MPs on both sides of the house routinely send their kids to private schools.


              • Hmm. If you're only ever going to make changes which are supported by the teachers unions, then you run into difficulty make any hard choices at all.

                ATM, my personal belief is that the Ministry of Education (which has a much greater influence on teaching in NZ, than any government does) – has experienced pedagogical capture by a particular educational philosophy. To the extent where they ignore all contrary evidence (dropping ed stds are just one measure).

                I don't know how (if this is indeed the case) that any government can turn this around. Let alone turn it around easily.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Hmm. If you’re only ever going to make changes which are supported by the teachers unions, then you run into difficulty make any hard choices at all.

                  Hmm – maybe just make some changes which are supported by unions?

                  I don't know how (if this is indeed the case) that any government can turn this around. Let alone turn it around easily.

                  "Pedagogical capture" notwithstanding, MoE's strategies have changed, are changing, and will change. We can, however, be certain that there will be no education(al) ‘fix’, easy or otherwise, while our parliamentary representatives treat NZ education as a political football.

                  Might help if Government politicians and MoE staff listened more to the collective voice of the teaching profession. One can only hope that any future NAct government will be less ideologically inclined to ignoring unions than the previous one…

                  "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

                  Interpreting Hekia Parata’s legacy [1 May 2017]
                  It is tempting to suggest that 2012, her annus horribilis, was a turning point and after that things improved. But although the depths of the PR disasters of that year weren’t ever plumbed again, Parata never gained the full trust of teachers. She continued to pursue an agenda that was completely out of step with school leaders, education academics and the teacher unions.

                  'Not remembering the past' could soon be a new NCEA course smiley

                  • And education has been such a success story under Labour, of course….

                  • You tell me….. After the litany of 'failures' under National you recited – I'd have expected to see a comparable positive storm of success under Labour – who, clearly, have no interest in upsetting the powerful teacher unions.

                    Really, we have to stop blaming 'Covid' for everything. They had 2 Covid-free years to set policy in place (because, clearly they had spent the previous 9 years in opposition honing their education policy /sarc/ – and knew exactly what they were going to use to replace National Standards)

                    And, while Covid lockdowns had an impact – it was greatest on the very young (the kids just starting school – who might just as well not have bothered), and the kids in their final NCEA years – who needed to cover specific material to a specific level (and, some of whom, had little or no access to online classes for a variety of reasons). Not to say that other kids weren't affected – but those were the critical areas.

                    If Covid lockdowns were such a major limiting factor on learning – then we should have seen a great chasm between the achievement results of kids in Auckland (who experienced more than double the number of lockdown days), and the kids in the rest of NZ – South Island in particular. I have yet to see any evidence of this.

                    Note that reducing the qualifying level for NCEA (as was done in 2020 and (for some areas) in 2021) – doesn't actually prepare kids for the next level. You still need to know Year 12 chemistry, if you want to be successful in doing Year 13 chemistry.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      You tell me…

                      Hang on – you told me “education has been such a success story under Labour” (@4:20 pm)??

                      After the litany of 'failures' under National you recited –

                      I provided ~10 links (to data and the opinions of others) in response to comments in this thread – but "litany"? Still, "Perception is Reality" for some, including the reality that The Standard is a left-leaning blog.

                      What’s your political ‘angle’?
                      We come from a variety of backgrounds and our political views don’t always match up but it’d be fair to say that all of us share a commitment to the values and principles that underpin the broad labour movement and we hope that perspective will come through strongly as you read the blog.

                      "What is your political angle?" – good question, eh?

                      I'd have expected to see a comparable positive storm of success under Labour – who, clearly, have no interest in upsetting the powerful teacher unions.

                      Bizarre comment for a respectful centrist to make, imho. Why on earth would any effective Government be interested in upsetting a large group of public servants? It might prove difficult to make a case for NZ right-wing political parties being supportive of "powerful" worker (cf. taxpayer) unions, but why would they be interested in upsetting unions? Ideology?

                      As for expecting a "positive storm of success under Labour", that comment seems a tad hyperbolic for a centrist, but I'm biased.

                      If Covid lockdowns were such a major limiting factor on learning…

                      If NZ's Covid response wasn't "a major limiting factor on learning", then that would be an excellent outcome (imho) – the key word in "I have yet to see any evidence of this." is 'yet' – time will tell.


                    • Incognito []

                      NCEA exam attendance was down in regions affected (most) by lockdowns (i.e. Northland, Waikato, Auckland) in 2021. Annual Report came out in May this year, IIRC.

                  • Peter

                    "Make changes supported by the teacher unions' and "Pedagogical capture" raises pertinent points.

                    It's reasonable to say that the place of schooling and teachers in our society has changed remarkably over the past 70 years. (No doubt in a time frame people in forums such as this could understand.) I'm not talking just about the changes technological and curricular.

                    Was a time when there was a thing called 'country service' which saw the mass of teachers trained having to teach in identified country schools. The flow of teachers in and out of communities the length and breadth of the country assuredly had significant impact. Go there for two years, maybe meet a future spouse, become part of the local drama or rugby club, coach or organise kid's sports teams. Then likely move on.

                    Along with that was a system of teachers being 'graded' by Departmental inspectors on a three year cycle. It was an 'appointments and promotions' scheme, hierarchical, giving currency for those deemed capable to move 'up the ladder.' Accommodating those elements were many hundreds of small schools, one teacher, two, or three or four and so on.

                    After being an 'ordinary' teacher the masses aspiring to be head teachers served in small schools, trying to prove their worth, improving their grading and hoping to go onto some school bigger. Someone from Northland might transfer to Taranaki or Southland or Hawkes Bay with the system being national.

                    In their schools teachers tried to prove their worth, experimented, went to courses trying to pick up new ideas and put them into practice. Most consequentially, those who were aspiring to be headmasters/headmistresses were at the chalkface and running a school dealing with every child and their learning from (as it was) primer one to form two. They served apprenticeships in learning how kids learn, steps along the way, and dealing with the ebb and flow of humans on learning journeys.

                    The apprenticeship necessarily too was in teachers learning who they were themselves and their place in communities. And vice versa. ‘The teacher is right’ easily became part of a societal norm.

                    Lifeblood flowed through the countrywide veins of our schools. As the structural elements changed the nature of the business of training teachers and the expectations and demands on those in the business changed. The nature of the beasts in charge changed. The demands on them changed and so what they expect of their charges.

                    At it’s best learning is a magic event, a series of them, and should be that. We want altruistic, creative, demanding, challenging, personable, inspiring people in the job.

                    The job though, with it’s fear and tight underpants accountability demands drones. The managers, the principals need ticks in boxes not magic. And generations of parents are playing that same game. ‘The teacher is right?’ “Only if they see it like I see it.”

                    Changes supported by teacher unions? Teacher unions have no chance of seeing the most essential changes made. And those necessary ones won't be proposed from elsewhere where the lowest of low trust models rule.

      • alwyn 4.1.2

        They were certainly introduced by National, in 2010. However they were scrapped, as one of their first actions, by Labour, in the person of Hipkins, who gleefully announced that they were being dumped in 2017.

        It seems a great deal more likely that the scrapping of National Standards then is more likely to be responsible for the recent collapse in pupil's results than the fact that they were brought in long before the current 14 year olds were anywhere near school.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          National Standards ended [12 December 2017]
          Starting in 2018, schools will no longer be compelled to report annually on National Standards to the Ministry of Education. The process was little more than a compliance exercise and was a major distraction to schools. There are better ways to build a nationwide picture.

          The National Standards 'tap' was turned on in 2010, and turned off in 2018 – the effects of eight years of National Standards are still flowing through schools.

          NZ's education 'system' seems severely damaged – schooling is increasingly unattractive to pupils, and it's difficult to attract and retain any teachers, let alone those who might regard teaching as a calling. The pandemic hasn't helped either.

          Interfering politicians must take some responsibility for this – education is too important to the future of Aotearoa New Zealand for it to continue to be a partisan political football, imho.

          • Belladonna

            However, it's difficult to actually attribute any educational failure to National Standards – given that all of the measures showed that educational measures (reading, writing maths) remained pretty much static while National Standards were in place. [That's not, of course, the outcome that the Government wanted, but it's the one they got]

            I can think of no learning impact which would have been invisible in any measure while NS were in place, only to become apparent when they were removed. Can you?

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              You mean "pretty much static", or "invisible",, as in "pretty legal"?
              See Figure 6 on page 16 of this report [PDF], available from the NZI website.

              National Standards 2016: Retrospective Insights, Continuing Uncertainties and New Questions [2017]
              Looking back from 2016 perhaps the most concerning thing about the National Standards experience is how little genuine commitment there was on the part of the National‐led Government to assess the pros and cons of the Standards and respond accordingly. The ‘Cautionary Tale’ book discusses numerous other instances where evidence that casts doubt on the National Standards was ignored or dismissed by Ministers of Education and senior policymakers of the National‐led Government or where evidence has not been sought in the first place.

              Why don't (can't?) we learn from history sad

              Standards and the professor [6 Feb 2010]
              So it came as a shock when Hattie returned from a six-month study tour in the United States last July to tell the Herald that he was deeply concerned about the direction the Government's policy had taken and worried that it could set back education 50 years.

              "50 years"! Surely you must be joking, Professor Hattie.

              • You seem to have ignored this quote from above….

                The actual data seems to show virtually a flat-line in student achievement during the period when National Standards were implemented.

                For what it's worth, the national data shows virtually no change in the proportions of students at or above national standards so far – flat at 78 per cent in reading, 75 per cent in maths and 71 per cent in writing in each of the past three years for which data has been published.


                This was from 2016. The original data (sadly) appears to have been removed from the MoE website.

                Given that the latest PISA ratings are from 2018 – all we have to compare against are the reported 'test' results from the new NCEA reading/writing/maths curriculum – which had …. poor …. pass rates. This is a base-level competency test – which all students sitting NCEA level 1 should have been able to (on paper) pass. Students were selected to sit the test paper on an opt in/out basis – and schools would certainly have encouraged able students to do so (less able ones, might well have been encouraged to wait a year, to improve their pass-chances); so students sitting are highly likely to have skewed to the higher end of the academic range – which makes the pass-rates even more dismal.


                This is the same John Hattie who supports performance pay for teachers, and increased class sizes (I certainly don't agree with the latter) as well as saying the the critical factor in low income households isn't money, but low parental expectations.

                I've read his visible learning book – and absolutely agree that a major critical factor for effective learning is specific, targeted, timely feedback – from teacher to child – which is almost entirely missing from our education system [Based on my experience as a parent, and shared conversations with friends who are both parents and teachers]

                His point has always been that measurement is pointless unless you are going to do *something* with the information.

                Interestingly the report you quote (Briar Lipson), supports my argument for the pedagogical capture that I believe MoE and the NZ teaching profession has experienced; and is highly critical of their lack of willingness to review the failures in their approach.

                "However, despite at least 15 years of decline, and a total failure to raise equity, New Zealand’s educational establishment keeps doubling down on child-centred orthodoxy."

                Repairing the generational damage of this failed idea will take a coordinated effort. For many New Zealand educators, child-centred orthodoxy is like the air they breathe. It has redefined not only how to teach students, but even the purpose of school.

                She also advocates for an evidence-based approach to education (including, ironically, some form of 'nationalized assessments') – p. 112.

                A very interesting report indeed, I would agree with the majority of her recommendations – thank you for drawing it to my attention.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  The original data (sadly) appears to have been removed from the MoE website.

                  That's a shame. Still, since you're familiar with "PISA ratings", and have read Briar Lipson's NZI report, perhaps you could comment on the trends illustrated in Figure 6 on page 16 of Lipson's report [PDF]. To my eye it looks as if the PISA scores for Maths, Science and Reading all decrease relatively sharply between 2009 and 2012, with further smaller decreases in the 2015 and 2018.

                  It's not, however, all bad news – that same graph shows that between 2009 and 2017 the percentage of school leavers with NCEA Level 2 or higher increased from 70% to nearly 80%.

                  Lipson summarises the constrasting trends thus:

                  While the NCEA paints an illusion of rising standards, students’ scores in the most basic areas have been dropping relentlessly.

                  One might say that treating education as a business was bound to improve apparent student achievement, but I couldn't possibly comment.

                  Lipson is no fan of teacher unions (this is an NZI report), and views National Standards (2010 – 2017) as a means of ensuring accountability:

                  For reasons like these, teachers’ unions have long resisted more accountability in education. In fact, the Primary teachers’ union, the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI), successfully campaigned in 2018 to remove National Standards.

                  Accountability is important, but it seems to me that the National Standards initiative as it was implemented was always going to prove incompatible with a high-trust model of teacher-led education.

                  Maybe it comes down to certain political tribes simple not valuing education.

        • psych nurse

          Your argument about 14 yr old's not being subjected to National Standards is flawed, as the standards were abolished 4 yrs ago they had spent the first five years within that system.

          My partner formerly a secondary schoolteacher long moaned about pupils arriving in that system barely unable to read, she always complained about primary teachers not doing their job. She is now involved in basic literacy and numeracy assessments, can you imagine any 14 yr old not being able to understand any times tables, but this is what assessment is showing and at a private Christian school to boot.

          • Belladonna

            Yes, they spent the first 5 years in the system. During that time – the reported standards were consistent (flat, without improvement, but not dropping).

            Unless you can think of a way that the damage could have been caused – but remained invisible – until National Standards were removed…..

            Times tables haven't been taught in primary schools (at least not as part of the state curriculum) for at least the last 15 years. The old days of the class chanting 3 x 7 = 21; 3 x 8 = 24 – are long gone. Maths teaching is 'student-led' (as is the rest of the curriculum) and focuses on number strategies (rather than teaching a standard way to solve a problem). While this is a successful approach for kids who have mathematical minds – and enjoy number games ; it is (observationally) a poor strategy for kids who *don't* think that way – and would benefit more from a 'this is how to solve the problem' approach. Many get confused, and then withdraw from maths with the 'I can't do it' approach. [NB: from discussion with my kid's tutor, she spends at least the first 6 months with any kid, convincing them that they *can* do it]

            Again, observationally, very few primary teachers either enjoy or are good at teaching maths (there are exceptions) – and it's often a 'pro forma' excercise – rather than the enjoyment that I see in teaching in other areas.

    • Stuart Munro 4.2

      Yup. That's why I didn't go teaching here when I returned from Korea – I have standards.

    • Anker 4.3

      This is troubling to say the least. Not to mention the high truency levels. I wonder how Jan Tinettis adds to get kids back into the classroom are going.?

  5. Mr Kruger reiterates Te Urewera is no longer a National Park.

    And Mr Kruger is correct, you forget this.

    A quick look at the legislation Te Urewera Act 2014 would have removed all doubt.

    12Vesting of Te Urewera establishment land


    Te Urewera establishment land ceases to be vested in the Crown.


    Any part of the establishment land that is—


    a conservation area under the Conservation Act 1987 ceases to be a conservation area:


    Crown land under the Land Act 1948 ceases to be Crown land:


    a national park under the National Parks Act 1980 ceases to be a national park:


    a reserve under the Reserves Act 1977 has the reserve status revoked.


    The fee simple estate in the establishment land vests in Te Urewera and is held under, and in accordance with, this Act.

    this Act is the Te Urewera Act 2014

    The continued non-acceptance of this basic fact seems to indicate that there is a mass happening of 'old man yells at cloud' (anger at things they cannot control) affecting among others, the race scared, those taking Stuff as gospel.

    Does this idea of landowners apply to all people? Some owners of high country land have removed musterers huts that also functioned as huts for others/trampers. Does the shock horror apply to them also? Or does it only apply to Maori & specifically Te Urewera and Tuhoe?

    (My bro in law has been involved with use of these musterers huts over the years working with owners/lessees to make them safe. Over recent years many have been broken into/wrecked – not by trampers in need of a safe haven but by 4WD people (not the clubs) but the yobbo ones)
    4WD may not be able to make it to the hinterland huts but they sure can make a mess on the margins.

    Tuhoe are working to achieve status under this

    • pat 5.1

      The 'fact' of the Te Urewera Act 2014 is not however "old man yells at cloud"….the clue is in the title.

      • Shanreagh 5.1.1

        Title of what? Outrage by locals who wilfully continue to misunderstand the current situation? My heart bleeds, it really does.

        Your Facebook like response is difficult to respond to.

        If Tuhoe has control of its land then what it does on its land is surely up to it. All of this would have been done under a management plan and with the knowledge of the board that has 3 DOC reps on it.

        'Old man yells at cloud' refers to the continued non acceptance of the existence of the legislation. Acceptance or even a reading and undestanding of the legislation would lessen this.

        Is there such yelling when other management functions sich as pest control are undertaken?

        • pat

          The title of the Act.

          The 'fact' is prior to 2014 it was not a 'fact' and there is no guarantee that it will remain (or modified) into the future,

          That is the 'fact' of a democratic system…especially when the 'yelling' becomes sufficient.

          Of course we may not remain a democracy.

          • weka

            what's your point Pat? Please explain, because I've read your two comments twice and I don't get it.

            Shanreagh was using the meme of old man yelling at clouds to point the people who don't seem to understand that the area is no longer a national park and hasn't been for a long time, but are angry about it.

            • Shanreagh

              Thank you Weka…that is it exactly and much more succinctly than I could have put it!

            • pat

              The point is quite simple.

              'old man yells at cloud' is a pejorative expression against those disapproving of something they cannot impact…..and the case of Te Urewera it is not applicable for the simple reason there is every potential to impact that which is causing disapproval.

              Te Urewera Act (2014) is an Act of Parliament that didnt apply prior to that date and can be as easily rescinded or modified by any subsequent Parliament…and as we know public pressure has been known to move politicians …in democracies.

              Democracy is not immutable, that is the domain of theocracies and autocracies

          • Shanreagh

            You have lost me.

            Prior to 1860 it was land owned and occupied by Tuhoe since time immemorial. After 1864, I think, it was taken by the Crown, confiscated, in the terms of the time, for an act that Tuhoe had no part in. In 1954 this land was taken further away by the declaration of National Park status. Tuhoe were not consulted on this.

            When I say 'taken further away' to take land out of a national park involves an Act of Parliament and even had there been a will to return Te Urewera direct from the NP this would not have seen the light of day. If it had been taken up we would have had the unconscionable action of this being politicised/polarised on party grounds. So the delivery of a right and just solution would have been subject to a political whim.

            The investigations are correctly apolitical through the Waitangi Tribunal. Identifying the redress options are also correctly apolitical. The financial options are correctly political as it involves $$$$ from the Govt of NZ. The finalising of the settlement by an Act of parliament is correctly political as we do not want a settlement overturned without great thought.

            The Te Urewera act sets up a Board. There is no time limit on that.

            Is it just this land you have a problem with or are/were you similarly concerned with the many other Treaty Settlements such as Ngai Tahu, Tainui, Sealord. Why this one in particular?

            'Claims to the Waitangi Tribunal are allegations that the Crown has breached the Treaty of Waitangi by particular actions, inactions, laws, or policies and that Māori have suffered prejudice (harmful effects) as a result.





            Some recent claims


            Link to the Whakatohea claim. This contains in language we can understand what the deprivation of land from Maori can mean. This is what I mean when I say that while all of the settlements are written in good clear English, some are lyrical in the language as well. it is this combination that makes them so readable. Having had an involvement on the land side way down food chain I know that great care is taken with the language with many of those involved across many depts being given the chance to say ‘does this say what we mean it to say?’


    • In 2010 – when Tuhoi (including the same leader now quoted) were angling for the transfer of the management from DoC – they made unequivocal statements that public access would not be infringed in any way.

      Chief negotiator Tamati Kruger told the Herald yesterday that Tuhoe had given assurances to the Government that access to some of New Zealand's most rugged and beautiful tracks, Lakes Waikaremoana and Waikareiti "would not be compromised in any way".

      "The public access that is available now will not be limited or diminished in any way – what changes is that Tuhoe now owns that area but the public's interests does not change."

      Now, the statement is – it's our land and we can do what we want – tough luck if what we want to do, doesn't suit the public.

      There is a matter of public trust, here.

      • Sacha 5.2.1

        Access to a place is not the same as buildings there.

        • bwaghorn

          "The public access that is available now will not be limited or diminished

          I would say removing huts is diminishing the experience

          • weka

            I agree. Removal of huts is a significant change. But we're not just talking about huts.

            • bwaghorn

              You do understand lefties don't have to blindly back everything Maōri do

              • weka

                I do. I also understand that people don't have to kneejerk react against Māori having power.

                • bwaghorn

                  I think applying a lityle pressure on Mr Kruger is not a bad thing,he made a deal he needs to honor it,for the sake of co governess deals to follow if nothing else.

                  • weka

                    No problem with that. I've been saying critique is valid. I'm more objecting to the ways the objecting is being done by some.

                    (I don't know what the deal was though, I'm just going off what people are presenting here. I'll guess it wasn't his deal, but the Iwi's legal arm).

        • Belladonna

          I'd interpret "not diminished in any way" to include the retention of the existing infrastructure (tracks, huts, etc.).

          Huts aren't the only issue. Access to the park has also been closed for substantial periods of time – while TUT were arguing with DoC.

          It's open again now – after a very significant public outcry.

          Any comments on the conservation disaster that has resulted from TUT management?


          • weka

            Any comments on the conservation disaster that has resulted from TUT management?

            Any comments on the conservation disaster that has resulted from the dominant culture's management of the whole country?

            Because if we're going down that track, of critiquing Tūhoe's management, and I see no reason not to other than it's rude and hypocritical, then I'll point to the politics that you support as having a massively detrimental impact on nature eg the loss of biodiversity from industrial dairying.

            The reason I'm pointing that out is that there are real and deep differences in world view and values here, and imo that's the stuff we should be wrangling with. It's easy enough to point a finger at any Iwi and the things we don't like, but we're a bit slower to point the finger at Pākehā. Maybe we should look at what the underlying values are and why each set is driving what it is.

            • Belladonna

              Comparing the conservation results in Te Urewera before and after the change in ownership.

              This is not me, saying it's a disaster; it's respected conservation professionals – many who have dedicated a large portion of their life to making a difference in this area.

              • Shanreagh

                Apart from the link you have already posted who are the other professionals.

              • weka

                I already knew about this issue. My point here is the narrative you are weaving here about Tūhoe and its ability to manage things properly. I'm suggesting we dig deeper and look at the conflict of values. I think the time has passed for just writing of Māori and enforcing Pākehā values.

      • weka 5.2.2

        Now, the statement is – it's our land and we can do what we want – tough luck if what we want to do, doesn't suit the public.

        Please link to where either Tūhoe or Kruger have said this. Or own it as your beliefs about the situation.

        I'll also point out that when DOC have removed huts from the conservation estate, they also didn't ask the public. What's the difference?

        • Belladonna

          I was reflecting back the comment made by Shanreagh

          "If Tuhoe has control of its land then what it does on its land is surely up to it. "

          However, statement from Kruger.

          "We are redesigning Te Urewera, we are not copying what DoC has done over the last 60 years. This is no longer a national park," Kruger said.

          Interestingly, the removal of the huts is also opposed by Tuhoe locals (presumably part of the hunters who used them for shelter)

          The move has sparked anger from some Tūhoe locals like Paki Nikora.

          "The lack of consultation has been terrible," Nikora told Newshub.

          Nikora is one of 8000 people who've signed a petition calling for it to stop. He's been using the huts since the 1960s for hunting and tramping and said there's been no proper communication with the community on the matter.

          There is a quantitative difference between the removal of the odd DoC hut (unless you can link to a source which shows a systematic pattern of large scale removal) – and the proposal to remove more than 50 from Te Urewera.

          I also note that DoC go to significant lengths to work with community groups for upkeep and maintenance of remote huts, which primarily benefit their group.

          • weka

            thanks. What I see is,

            1. a commenter on TS expressing their opinion that Tūhoe have control of the land, and that this means it is up to them how they manage it.
            2. a statement from the chair of the governing board of the legal structure Tūhoe were required to have by the Crown as part of the settlement process. He says that Te Urewera is no longer a national park and they will do things differently. I read this as meaning that Māori have their own thinking about management that is different from the Crown's ideas about National Parks. This doesn't surprise me, there are clear cultural differences between Māori and Pākehā on conservation and management of nature.

            What I'm not seeing is

            it's our land and we can do what we want – tough luck if what we want to do, doesn't suit the public.

            although I can see how some might choose to interpret it that way. I am curious if you believe that Iwi should have a consultation process with Tauiwi (or the Crown, or New Zealanders generally) about what they do with the land returned to them under treaty settlements. And if so, what is the rationale?

            My memory is that DOC removed back country huts in the 80s or 90s without consulting the public, and it did piss a lot of people off. It wasn't the odd hut, it was DOC going through and removing the ones they didn't want to keep and it was systematic. Have a feeling that groups intervened, not sure how many were saved.

            If it's the number of huts in Te Urewera that is bothering you, rather than it being Māori doing it not DOC, then I'd like to see an audit of the condition and usage of the huts being removed. Fifty huts seems a very large number for the area. Were DOC keeping them all in good condition? Who was using them?

            Which isn't to say there isn't a place for critiquing what is happening. I think it's useful to tease out what the objections are specifically, and look at to what extent this is an objection of transfer of power from the dominant culture to Māori, and if so, that's a different conversation than issues about huts.

            • Belladonna

              I am curious if you believe that Iwi should have a consultation process with Tauiwi (or the Crown, or New Zealanders generally) about what they do with the land returned to them under treaty settlements. And if so, what is the rationale?

              Apparently TUT don't even have a consultation process with Tuhoe living close by – referencing the quote above.

              DOC are not allowed (by TUT) to do any maintenance in Te Urewera – that is all controlled by TUT – that was a big part of the stoush which saw access to Lake Waikaremoana closed for months.

              My understanding is that these huts are 'shelter-from-the-elements' huts used by hunters (they're not camping venues). As such, they will be predominantly used by local (or regional) hunters – not tourists or backpackers. Apparently Tuhoe among them.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.3

        Some may view the 2014 Act as a recent wrong 'not making a right', whereas to others (me included) it's about righting wrongs. Personally, I would have preferred the land to remain a National Park (sans mining thank-you very much), but NZ's population is growing.

        Buy land. They've stopped making it. – Mark Twain

      • Shanreagh 5.2.4

        As Sacha says access is different from maintaining old and now unserviceable huts.

        Before many of these huts were built you packed in and out.

        I think we need to give Tuhoe time to establish and not automatically assume the worst as many nay sayers are doing.

        I don't think Tuhoe have said what you have said they are saying but in point of fact it their land, vested in the board, it is no longer NP. We may not have an automatic right of access (I don't know) or huts but then we don't have an automatic right of access or to huts to many other properties in NZ do we?

        If the land was illegally taken from someone do we, as the taker ie the Crown as the Treaty partner, have a unilateral right to impose conditions on its return? No we don't. The Crown has broached ideas and Tuhoe has agreed and the two are working through the Board. So in fact we as those that the Crown worked on behalf of have the ability.

        If the public don't have an inbuilt right what is the matter of trust? Is it that arguments over huts may derail other Treaty claims? If so I don't think so as those working in the field will not let irrelevant matters derail the working they are doing to investigate.

        Is it that the current Govt will lose trust? Generally these claims and investigations are apolitical as they should be.

        So is the trust lost from people who don't know the background, can't be bothered to know the background? If so I agree that perhaps greater publicity about the role of Treaty Settlements, the two partners may be useful but then perhaps not.

        People will just continue to follow and believe click bait, ill researched articles in MSM. That is where MSM gets its raison d'etre from. Regrettably this will give people a reason to grumble about anti Maaari this or anti Mowri (depending on your Europeanised pronunciation).

        There does seem to be a bit of a bow wave building up where Maori issues are a convenient whipping boy. Winston Peters and his silly 'apartheid' comments seems to be grabbing this wholeheartedly.

        • weka

          We may not have an automatic right of access (I don't know) or huts but then we don't have an automatic right of access or to huts to many other properties in NZ do we?

          When DOC created the great walks, they introduced a rule that you couldn't free camp along the tracks any more. Because obviously at that point, making money was a new priority. This was loss of pre-existing access. Admittedly it was before the internet, but I don't remember that the same kind of animosity as gets directed a Māori (even allowing for the large degree of antipathy towards DOC from certain parts of society).

        • Belladonna

          The 'trust' that is lost is between the public statements of a lead negotiator before the transfer of Te Urewera, and the public statements and actions of the same individual as a member of the trust board afterwards.

          With co-governance on the table – not just for Treaty settlements, but in a raft of areas (including 3 waters) this kind of situation means that people are much less likely to trust iwi statements about their intentions.

          Would you ever vote for another National Park to move into iwi ownership?

          • weka

            Would you ever vote for another National Park to move into iwi ownership?

            I might if there was a guarantee that mining couldn't happen on/under the land. But the question is off imo, because it's going to depend on which park, and what Iwi reps and others are saying. Or are you saying that all Māori are liars?

          • Shanreagh

            Why would we ever vote on this? It is supposed to be an apolitical process designed to right wrongs? It has worked through both Labour and National Governments.

            It so happens that the land that was taken from Tuhoe, for no reason and then had a another land alienation (to NP) put on top while it was still in public ownership. If this was proven to be the case in another situation I would have no hesitation in supporting a return of land taken unjustly to Maori from whom it was taken.

            As I said above I am struggling to think of another NP where the fact situation mirrors Tuhoe and where the original people are still living on the land.

            Are you able to name other NPs where the original owners, from time immemorial have lived on the land right through its time as a NP?

  6. X Socialist 6

    I have forgotten nothing. However, most New Zealanders don't know what's being done behind their backs on both sides of the fence, regardless of rights and wrongs. These issues are hiving off in unexpected ways:

    We are heading into a future with no defining constitutional references.

    • weka 6.1

      what's being done behind people's backs in regards to Te Urewera? Be specific.

        • weka

          I'm asking you to explain in your own words what *you mean. Links are good, but they're there to back up commenter's points and arguments. The reason for this is that we can't expect people to read a whole article and parse what is in someone's mind. It's on the person making the comment to explain.

          For instance, removal of the huts is clearly not behind people's backs, because it's in the public domain that this is being done. So what did you mean exactly?

          • X Socialist

            Sub groups of Tuhoe have gone behind, or moved forward, ( take your pick) with hut removal without consultation with either the public or other Tuhoe.

            Also I know personally of people who have been assaulted and threatened. I seriously suggest you do not visit this area because Tuhoe are a law unto themselves. They dislike Pakehas, and they call other Maori tribes 'Brown Pakeha.''It's so sad because this area is one of the last in NZ that harks back to a time of the Moa and pre European. It is so beautiful.

            Unfortunately things wont’ be getting better anytime soon.


            • Shanreagh

              If the people have gone there with the entitled and incorrect views that have been exhibited here on TS I am not surprised they have not received a warm welcome.

              Had your friends contacted Tuhoe before arriving? You know how some people like to have a warning of the arrival of others, you know being polite and all that. Finding out if it was possible, where, what cost etc?

              It is a beautiful place and it is also someone's home and it also does not belong to us.

              • Shanreagh

                X Socialist if you follow the links you will see that Tuhoe are having another of their festivals in 2023.

                Why not find out a bit more about this and encourage your friends to do so too.


                Even if you or your friends made contact and asked now about it and if you had the time from now on asked if you could give them a hand, no obligation, with anything.

                It cannot be easy hosting this event with a smallish permanent population and with many living away from home.

                In this way you will get to be better informed, do something to help people, have fun, get to know others.

                • Shanreagh

                  I can't argue with any of this.

                  There is a strategy to rid the area of western influences

                  We remove the western influences and their imprint within Te Urewera. We regrow the belief in ourselves, and that our care practices by Tūhoe hands and hearts will lead the way.


                  We treasure our indigenous ecological systems and biodiversity through significantly reducing key existing pressures, enabling Te Urewera to a natural state of balance.

                  The board membership


                  Having worked with at least two of these people in times gone past I think the Board is well served with its people.

                  A pressure would be the constant upkeep of huts that are either not needed in terms of Tuhoe vision for the future or past their use by date.

            • Sacha

              Who says 'consultation' is part of how Tūhoe want to steward this land?

              • Shanreagh

                Exactly. It is not a public institution where consultation on its functions are enshrined in legislation or practice.

                In fact Tuhoe did consult in 2017 and got many good ideas and presumably these are still being worked through.

              • Incognito

                And even if it [wide public consultation] were, and it isn’t, ‘consultation’ is becoming a euphemism for ‘listen to me and alleviate all my concerns or this is a farce and I’ll moan & complain till the cows come home’. I’d like to think that it is foundational to democracy to agree to disagree throughout each and every process as well regarding all outcomes.

    • weka 6.2

      We are heading into a future with no defining constitutional references.

      NZ doesn't have a written constitution, so do you mean that our current conventions that are the basis of an unwritten constitution are changing to not having any? Please give examples, with evidence.

      • X Socialist 6.2.1

        In the link provided you will notice some legal rulings have been made and legal oversight and jurisdiction established. But nothing is happening. Obviously our ''current conventions'' have no teeth. Maori are now able to thumb their nose at the law because of Maori Tikanga.

        Can you see any way forward as a nation?

        • Shanreagh

          This is a very poor example of some thing, far be it for me to say racial profiling about 'Maaris' and it does nothing to bolster your argument.

          If I was running your argument I would be looking at the threat to our Westminster system of Government posed by the Sovereign Citizens movement. These people, given their head have the ability to turn our style of Govt on its head and bingo we are all back being ruled under Admiralty law and the law of the Sea and Discovery. No thanks I prefer the system that the Ngati Wikitorias have given us at Waitangi in 1840.

    • Shanreagh 6.3

      Behind their backs…….you are joking of course!

      The Treaty of Waitangi Act was enacted in 1975.

      Treaty settlements have been part of NZ life since the Waitomo Caves and Sealord Fisheries claims. There were large settled claims for Tainui and Ngai Tahu in the mid 90s……so at least 25 years.

      ToW claims are between the two Treaty partners

      1 The Maori group

      2 the Crown for and on behalf of the people of NZ

      It does not take much of a sense of right and wrong to concede that taking someone's land as punishment for something they did not do and then compounding this wrong by further alienating under a National Park status is offensive. Yet this is what happened to Tuhoe.

      The need to meet and learn from Treaty of Waitangi Claims has been a feature of both Labour and National Govts with Rt Hon Sir Doug Graham being an enthusiastic supporter. He speaks on YouTube below.

      • X Socialist 6.3.1

        Ngai Tahu have had settlement payments before. I can't find my notes but they had received four payments historicaly leading up to the present if I remember correctly:

        ''The first settlements:

        Other inquiries and commissions followed. All commented on the misery and poverty that Ngāi Tahu endured after the land sales of the mid-19th century. A 1920–21 commission of inquiry suggested they should be paid compensation of £354,000, but no immediate action was taken. In 1928 the first Ngāi Tahu Trust Board was set up, with a meeting the following year to help identify the beneficiaries of the proposed compensation.

        ''It was not until 1944 that the first Labour government passed the Ngāi Tahu Claim Settlement Act. This awarded Ngāi Tahu £300,000, payable at a rate of £10,000 a year for 30 years. This was less than the recommended £354,000 of the royal commission, whose findings had always been contested by Ngāi Tahu. Nevertheless, the act was passed with the intention of making £300,000 a full and final settlement of the Ngāi Tahu claim. In 1946, legislation reconstituted the Ngāi Tahu Māori Trust Board, which enabled the funds to be administered.''

        • Shanreagh

          Of course.

          Your point?

        • X Socialist

          ''Treaty settlements have been part of NZ life since the Waitomo Caves and Sealord Fisheries claims. There were large settled claims for Tainui and Ngai Tahu in the mid 90s……so at least 25 years.''

          It was not until 1944 that the first Labour government passed the Ngāi Tahu Claim Settlement Act. This awarded Ngāi Tahu £300,000, payable at a rate of £10,000 a year for 30 years. This was less than the recommended £354,000 of the royal commission, whose findings had always been contested by Ngāi Tahu. Nevertheless, the act was passed with the intention of making £300,000 a full and final settlement of the Ngāi Tahu claim.

          As I said before there have been other historical payments. One I believe was for 27,000 pounds. Plus, I believe(?) Ngai Tahu will receive payments in perpetuity.

          ”Two iwi have quietly been paid huge top-ups, totalling $370 million, to their supposed "full and final" Treaty of Waitangi settlements.”

          Waikato-Tainui received $190m and the South Island's Ngāi Tahu $180m – more than they originally settled for in 1995 and 1998, respectively.

          The Government made the payments on December 15 without any public announcement, but they were discovered by Stuff and confirmed by the Office of Treaty Settlements this week.

          A source in the Labour-led Government said some ministers were unhappy that every time a Treaty settlement was achieved, another 33 cents in the dollar had to be paid to the two tribes.

          Like I said: There is no way we as a country can move forward with with this type of stuff going on.

          • Muttonbird

            Ok, so the Maoris are bleeding us dry while we appropriate their culture for our own commercial gain.

            Pay for intellectual property, you cheapskate.

          • weka

            Like I said: There is no way we as a country can move forward with with this type of stuff going on.

            What type of stuff? You were asked to clarify and you didn't.

            Let me see if I can guess: you believe that treaty settlements should be full and final? and that if we don't do that, then something terrible will happen.

            Can you please confirm if this is what you believe, and then say what the terrible thing is? I/m sure you think you are being clear, but it's really not.

            • X Socialist

              1- Legal uncertainties around settlements and their outcomes. Different tribes being treated differently re settlement outcomes.

              2- The public being increasingly ostracized by Maori/ Maori organisations around land rights and co governance.

              3- Secretive government agreements behind the backs of the public. Or agreements not explained properly and signalled properly to the public.

              4- Uncertainty around legal obligations/ rights regarding things Maori. Eg Maori health.

              5- Racist legal rulings the allow Maori offenders to have a cultural report presented during criminal trials with judges able to take such a report into consideration.

              6- A real pissed off public. The outcome of that will be apparent at the next election. Only for the public to become pissed off with the next government. No government will be able to fix all this supposed Maori stuff.''

              7- Average Maori who just want to get on with life having to suffer discrimination because racists tar all Maori with the same brush fuelled by a media who sensationalise some stories, and don't report on others. Have you heard the word Maori associated with 'ram raids?'

              My point is there is no coherent way forward as a country. The treaty settlement issue is all over the place. Maori, like The Maori Party, really want separate state within a state. Pakeha have had enough, especially the ones who cannot wrap their heads around the fact that Maori will no longer be out of sight and mind. Maori can't agree amongst themselves over a variety of issues, so they can't move forward as a people. All these issues are now being magnified by the times we live in, especially economic wise.

              And, yes, settlements must be final. But they never will be because some Maori are claiming modern grievances?

              You may be thinking I'm a sad and pessimistic. Not true, I'm only pessimistic about the future of our country. There is no future. I would love to here your argument ''That there is a future for Aotearoa?''

              • Muttonbird

                Maori can't agree amongst themselves over a variety of issues, so they can't move forward as a people.

                Yeah, non-Maori are in constant agreement on every issue. Is that how they are able to move forward as a people?


          • Shanreagh

            Again your point?

            What does

            Like I said: There is no way we as a country can move forward with with this type of stuff going on.


            What is the 'stuff'? payments for unfair Crown actions is that 'stuff'? Does this view only apply to Maori or do we include other payments for 'stuff' such as unfair imprisonment etc. Or are you able to accept payment of $$$ to people wrongly accused of a crime by the Crown but you cannot accept payment of land and $$$ where the payment is because the Crown wronged an iwi?

            If you had read the background to the Ngai Tahu claim you would have realised that it is all not as black and white re earlier claims.

      • Belladonna 6.3.2

        In which case, what were effectively read as 'promises' by both Tuhoe and the Government/DoC – that Te Urewera would be effectively retained as a National Park (even though the ownership had changed) were, at best naive and at worst profoundly dishonest.

        • Shanreagh

          I think to do yourself justice you will need to link to these promises.

          Also please read through their website. Some of the stuff that has been raised here on TS is borderline lacking in honesty because it is from someone's 'friend' or I remember reading . Best to get info from the horse's mouth as it were. Slight Tuhoe pun here. wink

          Neither the legislation nor the Treaty Settlement documents say anything about it remaining as a de facto NP. In fact the legislation clearly and specifically removes references to NP Act, Reserves Act and Land Act as modifiers on the ability to do what is needed, as assessed by Tuhoe on the land.

          • Belladonna

            Quotes as already provided above

            Chief negotiator Tamati Kruger told the Herald yesterday that Tuhoe had given assurances to the Government that access to some of New Zealand's most rugged and beautiful tracks, Lakes Waikaremoana and Waikareiti "would not be compromised in any way".

            "The public access that is available now will not be limited or diminished in any way – what changes is that Tuhoe now owns that area but the public's interests does not change."


            Here's Chris Finlayson on the subject (note that this is after Key flat-out refused to transfer 'ownership' of Te Urewera to Tuhoe)

            Chris Finlayson said the new structure will allow the historical, cultural and spiritual connection between Te Urewera and Tuhoe to be fully recognised for the first time, while the biodiversity of the area is protected and enhanced and public access is guaranteed for all New Zealanders.

            He said while Tuhoe would take an increasing role in management over time, that did not mean that the tribe is getting ownership through the back door.

            The minister said he is happy to leave the ultimate question of ownership of the park to future generations to decide.


            Please note, that there was zero discussion at the time that this was intended to be a transfer into private ownership or into exclusive control of Tuhoe. The expressed intention at the time was partnership (what has later been come to be called co-governance).

            • Shanreagh

              Have you not read the legislation?

              Things are happening and will happen in the future. No-one really expects Te Urewera to be operated as a mirror copy of a national park. Things will happen in their own time and to the timetable of Tuhoe.

              Please also read the aims etc for Te Urewera that I linked to earlier I don't mind linking to them again, it's no skin off my nose. smiley



              • Do you not see the disconnect between the reporting at the time, and the legislation to which you keep linking?

                Do you expect ordinary Kiwis to read legislation? Really?

                TUT aims are all post facto – i.e. they were not published prior to the legislation being passed. And are – as I've pointed out – in conflict with public assurances made by the lead negotiator (same person as is currently fronting for the TUT board)

                • Muttonbird

                  You snooze, you lose.

                • Shanreagh

                  Well it is the legislation that is used to guide the actions from 2014 on. Prior to 2014 when it was a National Park it was legislation that guided administrators. Land administrators would not look for guidance on land management from newspapers. Newspaper reports add colour, explanations that may or may not be correct but would not be relied on for legal guidance.

                  I am not reading that there was any commitment to keeping Te Urewera just exactly as it was when it was a NP. Everyone who had knowledge of how lands handed over to iwi as part of Treaty settlements would be naive to think that the land would remain exactly as it was.

                  From what I can see from looking at the press material it was access that was talked about at the time. Reading the website there is nothing there to suggest access is constrained. Huts do not equal access.
                  What I can see from reading the management plans is that there is a plan to remove old and unsafe huts. There seems to be a plan also to bring the admin down to a number that could be competently managed, to not spread themselves (the workcrew) too widely and thinly.

                  Many NZers read legislation. Every public servant that works in a Govt Dept reads 'their' legislation. Every accountant and accounts administrator reads tax legislation, HR practitioners look at the Health & Safety in Employment Act and legislation about Employment contracts etc, Health administrators read the health & disabilities act. Citizens Advice Bureau staff read legislation. You would be surprised at how many NZers read legislation in the course of their jobs & interest and would find no great hardship in looking at treaty legislation.

                  As I have said before the Treaty legislation is a particularly clear type of legislation.

                  Other people would go directly to the Tuhoe site to get the advice from that on what the plans are. Both legislation and management plans are better sites to gather info from than newspapers.

                  Maori had no obligation to parade their plans before settlement. They knew they would have legislation that would guide them, and that they had to abide by, a board with reps from conservation and management plans to guide day to day, year to year work.

                  I am willing to let people have a go, they now have had land and mana restored. I suggest it would be a good idea for others to do so too.

                  Even by contacting Tuhoe, going to their festival rather than moaning from a distance, visiting packing in and out if need be, going on the close at hand walks.

                  I have seen an unpleasant and anti-Maori side over this thread.

                  I have seen people who are unwilling to let go their prejudices, who rely utterly on MSM and on sniping from a distance.

                  This weekend is the 80th anniversary of the battle of El Alamein. This WW2 desert battle was one where NZ troops featured against the Nazis…..Rommel. The Maori Battalion played a distinguished role in this battle. I had a father who fought alongside them & Australians in this particular battle against fascism. Maori fought so all of us as NZers could live our lives gently and peacefully.

                  Maori are not the enemy.

                  Please learn to live with them gently, respectfully and peacefully. Please learn discernment in what you read. Newspapers/media are here to make money, they do this by exploiting and click baiting. Go to the source rather than let it be interpreted for you.

    • Shanreagh 6.4

      This actually is a specious linking.

      This has nothing to do with a Treaty claim.

      It involves land taken under the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act something could happen to Pakeha. The occupants refuse to move. The occupants seem to identify as Maori. Thye have fought a case against removal to the maori Land court and lost.

      Please, what is the point of link other than the race of the people involved? Or is it just blatant smearing and diverting?

      This case does not bolster your claim:

      We are heading into a future with no defining constitutional references.

      It seems to have worked well with the Police doing their job, with the person against whom the orders being taken having the chance to have the case looked at. All this in a country where we have operated very well using the Westminster system of justice.

      • X Socialist 6.4.1

        You are missing the point. Everything, when its comes to our laws, seems to have flexibility when it comes to Maoridom for a number of reasons:

        1- Organisations and government departments are unsure of their legal footing with regards to their actions. Especially as these departments have solid indoctrination processes into Maori Tikanga.

        2- The Police are loathed to deal with things Maori for fear of public condemnation, woke condemnation, the Race Relations Office and Maori condemnation. Apologies to all who didn't make the list.

        3- UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. What does this mean for our laws?

        ''Please, what is the point of link other than the race of the people involved? Or is it just blatant smearing and diverting?''

        ''Nicholas and his wife do not recognise the Crown’s authority to take the family land''

        ''The local hapū has “unqualified sovereign jurisdiction” over the land, the signs say, and kaitiaki (guardians) “reserve the … right to remove any … aliens at any time.''

        “All presumed claims of title or right in and over our whenua … are not recognised and thus have no validity.

        ''When Nicholas was first served with an eviction notice in 2020, dozens of people – including gang members, activists, lawyers and politicians – descended on the land, vowing to stop the eviction, claiming it was Māori ancestral land.''

        ''Stuff revealed in 2018 that a police iwi liaison officer had got into hot water with her bosses for writing an opinion – later used by Nicholas in his appeals – that the land was Māori land.''

        Shanreagh, I take a global approach. You should, too. This type of rhetoric is happening right across New Zealand. I think a Nat/ ACT government will bring things to a head.

        So I stand by my original assertion:

        We are heading into a future with no defining constitutional references.

        • Shanreagh

          Ok, what say I say the things that the Nicholas family says about their land, about my own land. I am a a criminal and I want no rates or planning. I am free to say it. I am free to assert what ever I like.

          So I get convicted of a crime where the proceeds of crown recovery act applies. I still assert.

          If however I lost a court case involving the land that is where my freedom to do whatever legal things on my land ends. I can continue occupy as some have done when subject to a mortgagee sale. I might even try my luck, if I was mad enough with the sovereign citizens mob. Basically a range of illegal or outside the state options exist.

          The point is that it is not a specifically Maori thing to do all or any of these things.

          I loathe the mindset that says it is just because Maori people are involved that they have special rights or do this or that and 'woe is me'. As I said before these people seem to have done a pretty good job of using all of the avenues our Westminster system of govt has given them. They have used the rules that Pakeha brought. Not with any success mind. Now they are asserting their right by staying. Occupations have been around for years.

          I forsee a skirmish. It could easily have been a Pakeha facing this act.

          The thought of a Nact govt makes shivers run up and down my spine. We have our people here we devise our own solutions. We have a Westminster based system of Govt, lets keep that working as it should.

          • X Socialist

            I will leave things as they are – two differing opinions. People can make their own minds up. If however you want a reply, I will provide one.

            • Shanreagh

              Can we extend that agreeing to have differing opinions to Tuhoe and its ongoing management of Te Urewera.

              That would be a big step forward.

              It would mean instead of grumbling that things are not exactly the same as before 2014 we allow Tuhoe to have and implement its own plans for Te Urewera.

              Some of these plans we may like others not so much.

  7. Boris has withdrawn from his tilt at the UK Conservative leadership.

    At this state, looks like a shoo-in for Sunak. I don't think that Mordaunt – has even passed the 100 supporters threshold.

    • bwaghorn 7.1

      One wonders how much it cost Sunak to get boris to pull out?

      • Belladonna 7.1.1

        Nothing. Boris didn't have the numbers (and both Sunak and Boris knew that was the case).

        Much like the various contenders in our political parties who 'have a go' when a leadership contest happens – but quickly pull out when it's evident they don't have the support.

        If you know you don't have the support, then going ahead with a bid for leadership is simply an exercise in humiliation – not many people are actually into public self-flagellation.

  8. arkie 8

    It could be eight hours that we work here,
    Eight hours for to sleep,
    Eight hours with the family and the company you keep

    Today is Labour Day, it commemorates the struggle to define a work day as an eight hour stretch. Samuel Parnell is credited with forcing the issue in Aotearoa New Zealand as early as 1840. Labour day was first officially celebrated in 1890 and an elderly Parnell was able to attend the celebrations. The day itself is often seen as just another holiday but it also offers us the time to reflect on the philosophy behind worker struggles of history and their continued relevance today.

    • Shanreagh 8.1

      Very good Arkie. I am certainly grateful……though through the excesses of the neo-lib reforms it was difficult to maintain an 8 hour workday and even now in some places one is thought to be a good worker if you work longer than 8 hours unpaid. Sucked in to this for a period of time through from the 1980s……

      In one workplace we decided to leave after 8 hours, but what happens when we get home, what do we do was the cry? Over that time the work got done, and many of us had gardens as we had never had before……, others did exercise. We were all much more productive as human beings, as people.

  9. Incognito 9

    And while some harbour hopes that such long-established drugs will be free of the conflicts of interest often alleged of large traditional pharmaceutical companies, this is not automatically valid. All pharmacological health treatments are invented, produced and marketed by someone who is likely to have personal and financial interest in its widespread use.

    Ouch! Such inconvenient fact; the truth does hurt, sometimes.

    • mauī 9.1

      A financial interest is the least of our worries. As we've found out, if a pharmacological health treatment can capture our media, government, and most industries then something is very, very wrong.

  10. Poission 10

    Australia sees rough weather and headwinds as it sets to announce its budget tomorrow.

    We have responsibly gone through the budget, line-by-line, and identified savings, or re-prioritisations, where we can to begin the task of budget repair or pay for new government priorities," she said.

    It is believed $3.6 billion will be saved through the government reducing its spending on external contractors, advertising, travel and legal expenses, while $2 billion in grants promised by the former government will be cancelled.

    Also learning from the mistakes from the UK were markets in the form of bond vigilantes will punish fiscal imprudence.Australia will still carry on with the Morrison tax cuts ( costing the budget 250b over 10 years) whilst hoping for revenue increases whilst mining revenues start to contract on risks of global recession.

  11. Anker 11

    What is happening on the feeds? It looks like. Closing the Gap, Tracey Sharp is spamming the site

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