Open mike 24/05/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 24th, 2015 - 146 comments
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146 comments on “Open mike 24/05/2015”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    The Irish have voted for gay marriage in a referendum, good news. But in a week which featured a lot of nonsense about gender assignment surgery again wedging a bunch of hapless white male MP Labour twits what are the lessons for the left in NZ from the Irish referendum?

    Anyone who favours my posts by generously reading them will know I’ve lately been much taken by the ideas of Pablo Iglesias and Spain’s Podemos. One of the things that Podemos advocate is the left forming broad alliances for specific issues, looking not to the parliament for top down leadership, but rather by-passing the political & media elites to force change. This piece in the Irish Times –

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-ireland-has-left-tolerance-far-behind-1.2223838

    notes that “…It looks like a victory for articulacy. This was indeed a superb civic campaign…” A civic campaign that gave the political elites in Ireland absolutely no choice. Compare and contrast a confused, ideologically exhausted Labour party bickering over gender re-assignment surgery with the sort of populism of Podemos, and the sort of mechanisms (referendums, civic campaigns) in Ireland and the sort of “new left” we need for the 21st century here in NZ is becoming clearer.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1

      Podemos are interesting in that they’ve used Loomio in such a massively constructive way. They’re a true grass roots political movement.

      It’s what we need here in NZ. Where the representatives are representing the choices of the people and not their own desires and beliefs as we have now.

      • weka 1.1.1

        maybe the standardistas should set up a loomio and run through various scenarios/decisions based on current posts. See what happens when we have to actually work together 😈

    • weka 1.2

      “but rather by-passing the political & media elites to force change”

      Completely with you on that one.

      Can you recommend some reading on Podemos for someone who’s unfamiliar with it? Something easily accessible and not too dense to start with would be good.

    • Charles 1.3

      If you (or anyone) look into Ireland’s distant past, and where its culture has come from and the general default “mindset” of the Gaelic people, the way Gay marriage has been dealt with comes as no surprise.

      Without wanting to present the idea that the Irish are all a bunch of happy dancing leprechauns, unlike NZ, Ireland’s cultural heritage is one of the most advanced and… hmmm… “liberal” or “progressive” in the Western world.
      Where NZders traditionally seek advantage between peers, and maintain inequality between gender and sex, foreigners and locals, and enforcement of law comes from the State – as per their English/Monarchist roots – Ireland traditionally seeks equality and community, and enforcement of law is the decision of the family/clan – as per their Clan roots.
      In very loose terms, of course, but that’s the point: despite having a modern tendency to shoot each other over which street one lives in, and despite early culture still being Patriarchial, they are more prone to integration of all-comers lifestyle requirements (women, gays, and foreigners) , rather than exclusion. The source of the cultural echo being Brehon Law.

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2

    Secret meeting in London to discuss making cash illegal, meaning total government control over taxation, spending….or more specifically what is able to be brought and sold.

    http://armstrongeconomics.com/archives/30862

    • b waghorn 2.1

      Cashless society is a natural evolution IMO all cash is is glorified shells and pebbles.

      • ianmac 2.1.1

        Probably inevitable b waghorn but this was suggested not as evolution but a sudden lurch. Imagine a cashless society where a Government agency could if they wanted, track a dissident and know exactly their activites. And no more coins for the buskers or charity collectors. Why even the very rich could be tracked and taxed so what a calamity that would be!

        • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1.1

          Yes this is all part of implementing authoritarian big brother control and surveillance over every aspect of our lives. True democratic dissent will be ending shortly thereafter.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      A cashless society will be a great step on the way to the total removal of money. Interestingly enough, it’s happening anyway:

      Approximately two-thirds of total spending in New Zealand is done electronically on eftpos and credit cards,” says Paul Whiston, spokesman for electronics payment provider Paymark.

      The question isn’t that we’re going cashless but if we’re going to continue to let the private banks control our money and our spending. I’m of the opinion that we need to stop that ASAP. When we go cashless it needs to be a government service, well backed up and with very strict rules about access.

      Going cashless brings about a number of advantages:

      1. It would be near impossible to lose money. Sure, you could drop your swipe card but that can easily be replaced and any money spent via it returned and the thief caught.
      2. It would be impossible for someone to break in to the server and steal your money that way either. They can’t transfer it out to another country because any NZ$ outside of the server doesn’t exist and any internal transfer will be readily apparent even if the hackers managed to hide their own tracks.
      3. Taxes. It would be incredibly easy for IRD to track where money is going and thus be able to determine who owes what taxes. In fact, they could do it in real time making a Financial Transaction Tax viable (At the moment implementation of an FTT would have many people moving to cash to prevent having to pay the tax).
      4. Crime. Money laundering would be a thing of the past. It’s difficult to launder ill-gotten cash when it doesn’t exist. Other crime networks would also be easily detected. Essentially, crime that involves money would be gone along with the money laundering.
      5. Inflation could be more accurately measured. Instead of having people go around shops recording the prices for a basket of goods all sales would be reported back with the system then automatically measuring inflation in near real time.
      6. The recording of every sale would be great for informing people where they would get the best deal via a government funded website similar to PriceSpy.

      As I say, it’s not a question of if we’re going cashless (We are already) but when, how and who controls it. IMO, we need to do so ASAP and we need to control it and not the private banks (although I’m sure that the private banks would love to rip us off some more for allowing us to use our own currency).

      • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.1

        You’re kidding yourself, backing the movement towards a cashless society when that movement is completely engineered, supported, and structured from the ground up by the large capitalist institutions.

        • weka 2.2.1.1

          Yep, the only way NZ will get to be cashless is if it is forced to do so (and people will just invent new forms of non-traceable tokens for recording exchange anyway). That we have increasing tech for managing transactions is a different thing than removing cash as well.

          I’m expecting increasing adverse events (weather, economy) that make a cashless society the far less resilient option.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.1.1.1

            Absolutely. Trying getting food from a supermarket when the EFTPOS network goes down. Usually a “cash only” check out opens up, but fuck all people have enough cash on hand to use it, so you get hundreds of hungry people milling around surrounded by groceries unable to transact any business.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2

          As I said, we need to stop the large capitalist institutions from doing it and do it ourselves via our government. Private industry should not have control of our money and they will have if we don’t do something to stop them.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.1.2.1

            Yours are all fantasy conditions. I’m talking about what the actual conditions are, now, today. The fact is that moving to a cashless society, which is simply a part of moving to a fully online security and surveillance state, needs to be opposed on all fronts.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2.1.1

              Moving to a cashless society needs to be done properly but it does need to be done.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                That’s nothing more than a recital of faith from the Religion of Progress.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Nope. We need to keep track of our resources so that we can use them sustainably and for the benefit of NZ. Cash doesn’t allow us to do that in a meaningful way as it’s so easily untraceable.

                  • The Murphey

                    Q. How do you come up with this sort of thinking Draco ?

                    Q. Do you actually believe in your own thoughts ?

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    We need to keep track of our resources so that we can use them sustainably and for the benefit of NZ.

                    That has got nothing to do with having a cashless society. Societies have managed to keep a close eye on their resource use for millenia without electronic money. Often on stone tablets and papyrus.

                    You are linking ideas as pre-requisites when they are not.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Societies have managed to keep a close eye on their resource use for millenia without electronic money.

                      Not really. They’ve been able to keep track of transactions but not resource use in relation to what resources are actually available. This is a rather important development that we need to implement to help us becoming a sustainable society.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Whatever Draco. Ancient armies on the march could keep track of their provisions and their rate of use precisely but you imagine it your way.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      /facepalm

                      How much oil is left in NZs wells?
                      How much food is produced daily on NZs farms?
                      How much water is there available to those farms to produce that food?
                      How much iron ore in our black sands?
                      How much titanium?

                      Now, how much is available sustainably (ie, in perpetuity) and how much is actually being used?

                      There’s a reason why I kept saying in relation to. One of the main reasons that Rome collapsed was over use of resources. They ran out of the resources needed to maintain the empire.

                      A cashless society would allow better booking keeping of the use of those resources. Of course, we still need to measure what resources we have available.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Yeah I’m over this Draco.

      • sabine 2.2.2

        you see and all your points are why i like cash – the government issues legal tender, and it is untracable unless othewise marked.

        as for the cashless world fantasy, and then you have a day or three without electricity and non of your eftpos machines works.

        As for your bullet points: essentially all of you points listed we already have with our eftpos accounts.

        * Any purchase you make is already tracked, just have a look at your bank statements. (anyone can have access to that, as identity thiefs and hackes have proven on more than one account)

        * you are already getting ads in regards to your spending….Just look at the farmer emails that come courtesy of your farmer card, google, hack even the aa knows what you buy on your smart cad, every single one of your online purchases is recognised adn will reflect the next ads you see courtesy of google

        * the government could/should prevent tax evasion, but considering that the polititians are at the front of tax evasion, maybe we should simply stop dreaming that they will do something to prevent it. 🙂

        * loose your bank card and you risk loosing more then just a 20 $ bill.

        * anyone who knows how to hack can steal more then just your money from your bank account….i think they made a few movies about that already.

        * criminals don’t care what government do. They will find a replacement for cash, like cigarettes, coffee, chocolate, sexual favors, etc etc

        * non criminals with no access to a bank card will also find a replacement of official cash such as cigarettes, coffee, chocolate, work for food/housing, sexual favours for food/housing or jobs, … etc etc (this was how life was handled in the direct year/s after the war ended in germany. my grandmother and my mother had a few stories of cleaning cigarette butts, rolling new zigs out of them and selling them for a few pennies or some potatoes)

        No for the poor, cash is king, because it is untracable. Having a Food card that prohibits certain stores, or certain foods, or certain hygiene articles etc etc is not going to make your life easier.
        those that are rich or very rich already have their cash less society, and their bank accounts in switzerland, singapore, hong kong and london and they still don’t pay any tax.

        • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.2.1

          also note that the legalised gangsters and banksters in our society seem to transact their business electronically and cashlessly just fine. It’s their system after all.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2.1.1

            Which is why I keep saying that we need to take it off them.

            • NicTheNZer 2.2.2.1.1.1

              I don’t think a purely government operated banking system is a good idea. The current system has the advantage of creating a separation of roles between government regulators and the banks themselves.

              The standard of regulation is not strong and should be increased but that is another issue.

              Ireland seems to show what happens when politicians get too cozy with bankers. An entire political party lost its hegemony due to massive corruption which was fueling a property bubble there.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2.2

          you see and all your points are why i like cash – the government issues legal tender, and it is untracable unless othewise marked.

          That one sentence shows that you failed to understand what I said. The most important being that we actually need to track resources used. That’s not an option, not if we want to become a sustainable society.

          as for the cashless world fantasy, and then you have a day or three without electricity and non of your eftpos machines works.

          Shit happens and it really doesn’t happen that often. We mitigate against it but it’s still going to happen. As an example I’m pretty sure that a hell of a lot of Wellington couldn’t go shopping during the recent storm nor for some time after.

          As for your bullet points: essentially all of you points listed we already have with our eftpos accounts.

          I’m pointing out that the private sector shouldn’t actually have that information because of the many point you make about advertising and tracking.

          loose your bank card and you risk loosing more then just a 20 $ bill.

          As I pointed out, there’s actually less risk because of the nature of electronic transactions. A simple call to the help desk to report it lost and it gets frozen.

          anyone who knows how to hack can steal more then just your money from your bank account…

          There’s a risk of that but a) not as high as people believe and b) we need to risk a bit to become a better society.

          criminals don’t care what government do. They will find a replacement for cash, like cigarettes, coffee, chocolate, sexual favors, etc etc

          And that would be why we still have police.

          Having a Food card that prohibits certain stores, or certain foods, or certain hygiene articles etc etc is not going to make your life easier.

          Doing that would have to be illegal and any government that tries should immediately go to jail for a minimum of 5 years. I did say strict rules about it.

          those that are rich or very rich already have their cash less society, and their bank accounts in switzerland, singapore, hong kong and london and they still don’t pay any tax.

          That requires other tax and law changes but one point I should point out is that, with a cashless society, NZ$ would only exist in NZ on the government servers.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.2.2.1

            That requires other tax and law changes but one point I should point out is that, with a cashless society, NZ$ would only exist in NZ on the government servers.

            Not if you want a convertible currency

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2.2.1.1

              I never said that offshore people couldn’t have NZ$, only that they would exist only in the government servers.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                jeeezus Draco that still means that the NZD would not be a convertible currency. It would be like the renmenbi from four or five years ago.

          • mikesh 2.2.2.2.2

            It will make it easy for banks to introduce negative interest rates.

            • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.2.2.2.1

              Which they effectively do anyway, charging “fees” on small deposits.

              • mikesh

                That’s not the same thing as negative interest.

                • Colonial Viper

                  oh you mean like the difference between the “finance rate” and the “interest rate” in a consumer debt agreement?

                  The bank takes money from you for holding your deposit. Thats effectively a negative interest rate, albeit you are correct technically that it is not the same thing.

                  • mikesh

                    [The bank takes money from you for holding your deposit. Thats effectively a negative interest rate, albeit you are correct technically that it is not the same thing.]

                    Interest charged, whether positive or negative, is proportional to the amount deposited and varies with the duration. A bank charge is a fixed charge intended to cover the bank’s processing costs.

                    We could of course avoid both negative interest and and bank charges by only using cash. Which would be one reason the banking fraternity would be very much in favour of bringing about a cashless society.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      to cover the bank’s processing costs? I know what you are saying but that is not true. Its straight out gouging of our economy to the tune of billions a year.

                      You can regard those charges and interest as separate or categorise them differently as much as you like but the bottom line is that they are taking money off you for holding your deposit and you can calculate that as an effective negative interest rate based on the principal that you have with them.

                    • mikesh

                      [You can regard those charges and interest as separate or categorise them differently as much as you like but the bottom line is that they are taking money off you for holding your deposit and you can calculate that as an effective negative interest rate based on the principal that you have with them.]

                      If we were to abolish (positive) interest I don’t see how the the banks could remain in business were it not for bank charges. Even state owned banks wouldn’t want to have to rely on subsidies from the taxpayer to meet their running costs.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      not sure what world you are living in man, if you’ve been following the news, the banks with direct access to the Fed funds window get their money for free, then lend it to us charging us shitloads.

                      Lack of bank profitability is not an issue we are facing right now but i am sure that the banksters find your concern touching.

                    • mikesh

                      [not sure what world you are living in man, if you’ve been following the news, the banks with direct access to the Fed funds window get their money for free, then lend it to us charging us shitloads.]

                      Whatever. Bank charges and interest (positive or negative) are still two different things. So if the banks charged negative interest on deposits it would place an additional burden on depositors – additional, that is, to bank charges, which are generally accepted by customers as a reasonable charge for the services provided in operating cheque accounts, clearing of cheques, provision of plastic cards, etc. If the banks started charging negative interest I would want to be able to take my money out of the bank and operate mostly in cash. This however would not be possible in a cashless society.

          • sabine 2.2.2.2.3

            1. the private sector allready has all the information, especially the banks.
            2. loose your card in the morning, or have your bag stolen, and not know it for a few hours….your idendity is stolen, and your money is gone, and someone signed you up for a loan. Happens all the time, and been happening for years. Even when peeps call in to cancel a card, with wave and pay the chances are you are gonna loose more than a bit.
            3. Identity theft, and subsequent financial abuse is a big issue. It does not just happens every now and then. This is what the FBI says about financial crime together with Identity theft.
            4. In cash less world the cops will be payed off with Cigarettes, booze, sex, chocolate etc etc etc. They will be as corrupt as they are today.
            5. Food cards have been already introduced by WINZ http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/individuals/payment-card/ and now, the approved businesses that one can use are not forcibly the cheapest businesses to use for someone on welfare. (but heck we must take away choice in the name of welfare fraud, lest they buy something that offends our, mine, yours and humpty dumpty sensibilitys. Cause we all know lazy, bludgers and the likes. – Still waiting for the government to resign.
            6. And the government servers are immune to hacking, will never crash, always work and …..Novo pay?

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2.2.3.1

              1. Yes and they shouldn’t
              2. and 3
              3. Last time I lost a CC I called them up and they asked me what was my last transaction stopping it from that point. There hadn’t been any other transactions but I’m sure that they would have taken the correct action in correcting them if there had been including the return of any monies spent. Can’t do that with cash
              4. Which means we need procedures that find and correct that corruption
              5. yep and they need to be removed
              6. Nope but then, neither is cash – stolen wallets have been around forever. And Novopoay wasn’t a government problem per se but a private sector problem brought about by the dismantling of government over the last 30 years

        • RedBaronCV 2.2.2.3

          And the trouble with Winz payment cards is that people can’t use cash at the local market where the vegs are so much cheaper.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.2.3.1

            This is all designed to fuck with peoples lives and to remove control from people over even the smallest details of their day.

            An authoritarian big brother security and surveillance centralised state is the absolute inversion of a democratic, liberal society.

            • The Murphey 2.2.2.3.1.1

              Odd that there are a number who post here that seemingly can’t or won’t connect the dots between the total financial disaster foisted upon the planet and its inhabitants and the to move towards a ‘cashless’ society

              Note: Cashless can’t and won’t work unless all nations implement it at the same time and if that ‘big bang’ was to come into effect the consequences would be nothing short of catastrophic

              It is impossible to rid the world of cash money and impossible to police the creation of ‘unofficial’ forms of cash money which is why the exercise is propaganda which has been openly talked about by the establishments for an age now

              In my opinion the forces behind this blindly believe such a system of control will lead to the utopian digitized slave state but are forcing the swing back towards localized production and community based society as human beings realize what is necessary for the their own survival

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Yep. It’s hardly a conspiracy theory when they are basically laying it out in the open.

      • The Murphey 2.2.3

        http://www.cnbc.com/id/101266173

        Cashless society: A huge threat to our freedom

        1. It would be near impossible to lose money. Sure, you could drop your swipe card but that can easily be replaced and any money spent via it returned and the thief caught.

        What you meant to say is it will be impossible to stop the bank or other institutions taking your ‘money’

        2. It would be impossible for someone to break in to the server and steal your money that way either. They can’t transfer it out to another country because any NZ$ outside of the server doesn’t exist and any internal transfer will be readily apparent even if the hackers managed to hide their own tracks.

        Your faith in technology is bizarre and your understandings primitive while simultaneously endorsing Capital controls which will be immediately implemented and you can wave good-bye to freedom of movement….for everyone else

        3. Taxes. It would be incredibly easy for IRD to track where money is going and thus be able to determine who owes what taxes. In fact, they could do it in real time making a Financial Transaction Tax viable (At the moment implementation of an FTT would have many people moving to cash to prevent having to pay the tax).

        Corporations already do business electronically so you have not thought this through at all

        4. Crime. Money laundering would be a thing of the past. It’s difficult to launder ill-gotten cash when it doesn’t exist. Other crime networks would also be easily detected. Essentially, crime that involves money would be gone along with the money laundering.

        Q. You understand the crime networks own and control the financial systems eh ?

        The banks will continue laundering they will not even break stride while stopping your access anytime they like

        5. Inflation could be more accurately measured. Instead of having people go around shops recording the prices for a basket of goods all sales would be reported back with the system then automatically measuring inflation in near real time.

        You don’t understand what you’re talking about or what inflation is or the causes

        6. The recording of every sale would be great for informing people where they would get the best deal via a government funded website similar to PriceSpy.

        Yes we are aware of your big brother authoritarian preferences which you openly parade once again

        • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.3.1

          You don’t understand what you’re talking about or what inflation is or the causes

          It’s bizarre actually as current day point of sale systems already allow real time monitoring of economic activity and prices throughout the retail and service sectors.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3.1.1

            The problem being that it’s the corporates with the information and not the people. And that information is then used against the people rather than supporting them.

            • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.3.1.1.1

              The information is already there, its already being collected in real time, the infrastructure already exists to do all of that, further the government already has the capability to take all that information, sort it search it and store it into perpetuity

              Seems to me the answer is already right there in front of our faces if you want to go down that road (to a turnkey authoritarian central state).

        • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3.2

          What you meant to say is it will be impossible to stop the bank or other institutions taking your ‘money’

          No, if I’d meant that then I would have said that.

          … endorsing Capital controls which will be immediately implemented and you can wave good-bye to freedom of movement….for everyone else

          That’s below your usual standard of meaningless drivel but still meaningless.

          Corporations already do business electronically so you have not thought this through at all

          Actually, I have. The problem is that you didn’t get the full article which states that the servers would be government owned and no NZ$ would exist outside of those servers. This means that it would be very easy to trace where money has gone and thus what taxes the corporations owe on it.

          You understand the crime networks own and control the financial systems eh ?

          Which, again, is why I keep saying that our monetary system needs to be removed from the control of the corporates.

          You don’t understand what you’re talking about or what inflation is or the causes

          Yes I do.

          Yes we are aware of your big brother authoritarian preferences which you openly parade once again

          Allowing people to see where they can get the best deal is Big Brother? Man, are you fucken delusional.

          • The Murphey 2.2.3.2.1

            Allowing people to see where they can get the best deal is Big Brother? Man, are you fucken delusional

            No it’s the faith in such systems who would own the systems and how the information will be used is delusional

            Before we even begin to discuss the delusion that the ‘government’ will be in control of any such systems

            Q. How do you propose the government will ‘assume control’ over the private banking system which currently operates throughout most of the worlds nations ?

            Q. Do you believe governments event want to take control ?

            • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.3.2.1.1

              corporations, the government and the 0.01% are all merging into the same authoritarian establishment…

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3.2.1.2

              How do you propose the government will ‘assume control’ over the private banking system which currently operates throughout most of the worlds nations ?

              I don’t expect them to. I expect them to assume control of the NZ system and integrate it into the global systems. I expect other governments to follow suit.

              Do you believe governments event want to take control ?

              This is an important point about democracy – it’s not parliament that are the government but the people.

              • The Murphey

                I don’t expect them to. I expect them to assume control of the NZ system and integrate it into the global systems. I expect other governments to follow suit.

                Q. How would you remove the barrier of ‘state capture’ ?

                Do you believe governments event want to take control ?

                This is an important point about democracy – it’s not parliament that are the government but the people.

                Yeah great but that’s currently not the situation going around the Western World

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Yeah great but that’s currently not the situation going around the Western World

                  Yes, we need to do something about that.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.2.3.2.2

            Dude the way you insist that centralised infrastructure locking people in to establishment systems is the only way ahead, is pretty bloody scary.

            Its like you have never paid attention to how payment systems are used by the elite as weapons of war against Russia, Wikileaks, Kim Dotcom etc. Anybody and any organisation the establishment of the day thinks is a dissenter and a threat to them. And now you want to tie everyone in NZ to similar?

            Sorry mate, get fucking lost.

            • The Murphey 2.2.3.2.2.1

              Forced vaccinations and cashless society…

              Q. Why the heck would anyone wish to be living under such conditions ?

              • Colonial Rawshark

                The modern Left appears riven with incoherancy and incongruent principles. Patients rights but force vaccinations. Abortions more available but treasure babies. Cut down emissions but increase consumption of the masses.

                • sabine

                  question.

                  why are you here if you despise the modern left so much.

                  would you not be happier hanging with the modern right?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    a fair question. The pot needs to be stirred if there is any hope of this stew getting better. The pro-establishment greasers and the political careerists won’t.

                    btw the “modern right” are just as locked into ultimately self defeating behaviours. They just spend more of the time in power during.

                    The energy and resource crunch is coming, fast.

                  • swordfish

                    CV (or CR depending on the time of day) is simply engaging his critical faculties. Something I wish a few more of my fellow Lefties would do.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Chur. The older I get the less of an establishment loyalist I feel like being. Especially when “the establishment” is that which has lead us to this shite place in history.

                • DoublePlusGood

                  “Abortions more available but treasure babies”
                  These aren’t contradictory. Indeed a society that protects the rights and wellbeing of women is going to be a better society for babies.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3.2.2.2

              Its like you have never paid attention to how payment systems are used by the elite as weapons of war against Russia, Wikileaks, Kim Dotcom etc.

              I’m quite aware of that which is why I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, that these systems need to be removed from the elites control.

              Anybody and any organisation the establishment of the day thinks is a dissenter and a threat to them. And now you want to tie everyone in NZ to similar?

              They’re already in that position – I want to remove them from it.

              The point that you seem to fail to understand is that we do need a system. It’s not optional.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Dunno who the uncorruptible angels you are going to get to run your all seeing all reaching system. Maybe you want it run by AI?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Dunno who the uncorruptible angels you are going to get to run your all seeing all reaching system.

                  I don’t expect incorruptible angels – I expect everyone to have a say/voice/power rather than just a few. Overall, everyone isn’t corruptible but a few are.

                  • The Murphey

                    I don’t expect incorruptible angels – I expect everyone to have a say/voice/power rather than just a few. Overall, everyone isn’t corruptible but a few are

                    Q. Will you be proposing a solution about how you foresee this coming about ?

    • mikesh 2.3

      I suspect that we all may start using cigarettes as cash as in the POW camps. A cashless society would give the banks too much control.

  3. Chooky 3

    ‘Robert Fisk: Who is bombing whom in the Middle East?’

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robert-fisk-who-is-bombing-whom-in-the-middle-east-10222938.html

    “It amazes me that all these warriors of the air don’t regularly crash into each other…”

    Into this mess walks New Zealand troops ….at the command of jonkey Nactional and chicken hawks

    …the New Zealand Labour Party along with the Green Party and NZF and Mana/Int co-Left ( who opposed sending them there in the first place)…..should demand NZ troops are pulled out now!

    • ianmac 3.1

      Chooky. The article on the sidebar “After Vietnam: changes in imperialist strategy” gives a different take on the Middle East activity. Essentially that the West now has learned to get the unfortunates to carry out the bloodshed by proxy. Suits us to see the barbaric bad guys as an excuse to carry out remote “defence” activity. No more disasters labelling USA as bad guys as in Vietnam eg MiLai Massacre.
      https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/05/23/after-vietnam-changes-in-imperialist-strategy/

      • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.1

        Essentially that the West now has learned to get the unfortunates to carry out the bloodshed by proxy.

        Uh, this has been a hallmark of western empire for 400 years

  4. Incognito 4

    Debunking the child poverty myths by Rob Stock is an excellent read, in fact a must read.

  5. Camp Taji, were NZ’s troops are stationed is surrounded by ISIS on three sides with one side open towards Baghdad. Baghdad is facing an ISIS assault. That is according to the New York Times propaganda rag du jour in the US (Responsible for the yellow cake story that got the US invading Iraq in 2003 in the first place) that is.

    The distance between ISIS troops and Camp Taji is only ± 15 km.

    Why don’t we hear about this in the MSM?

      • Clemgeopin 5.1.1

        From the link:

        Vice President Joe Biden declared in early April that “ISIL’s momentum in Iraq has halted, and in many places, has been flat-out reversed.”

        A couple of weeks later, the President proved equally upbeat following a meeting with Iraqi leader Haider al-Abadi: “We are making serious progress in pushing back ISIL out of Iraqi territory. About a quarter of the territory fallen under Daesh control has been recovered. Thousands of strikes have not only taken ISIL fighters off the war theater, but their infrastructure has been deteriorated and decayed. And under Prime Minister Abadi’s leadership, the Iraqi security forces have been rebuilt and are getting re-equipped, retrained, and strategically deployed across the country.”

        But that was so last month. Post-Ramadi, conservatives like Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton, and Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-South Carolina, have lost no time in labeling such views out of touch and “delusional.” And, indeed, Obama sounded strangely detached on Tuesday when he told The Atlantic that ISIS’s advance was not a defeat.

        “No, I don’t think we’re losing,” he said, adding: “There’s no doubt there was a tactical setback, although Ramadi had been vulnerable for a very long time, primarily because these are not Iraqi security forces that we have trained or reinforced.” It was rather like the captain of the Titanic telling passengers that the gash below the waterline was a minor opening that would soon be repaired.

    • Maui 5.2

      Because the mainstream media only report what the Defence Force wants them to. Journalists get to be embedded within military forces on the ground, only if they tow the line and report what the hierarchy wants.
      John Pilger talks a little about general western media bias here, from 12:40 in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41YTAZHIWN8

  6. weka 6

    The first really big polar blast of the season arriving today, straight off the edge of Antarctica. Bundle up folks, esp in the South which is expecting heavy dumps of snow.

    http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=173.90,-52.04,512

    http://www.metservice.com/warnings/severe-weather-outlook

  7. Colonial Rawshark 7

    US government documents show rise of ISIS was predicted, supported and considered an “asset” in getting rid of Assad

    Supporting militant Sunni extremism in Syria and Iraq would also act to curb Iranian influence, it was noted. Fueling militant Islamic extremism in Syria/Iraq has also given the same security and surveillance state the excuse to demand more power and more budgets to use on its own western citizens.

    However, the newly declassified Pentagon report proves unambiguously that years before ISIS launched its concerted offensive against Iraq, the US intelligence community was fully aware that Islamist militants constituted the core of Syria’s sectarian insurgency.

    Despite that, the Pentagon continued to support the Islamist insurgency, even while anticipating the probability that doing so would establish an extremist Salafi stronghold in Syria and Iraq.

    As Shoebridge told me, “The documents show that not only did the US government at the latest by August 2012 know the true extremist nature and likely outcome of Syria’s rebellion”?—?namely, the emergence of ISIS?—?“but that this was considered an advantage for US foreign policy. This also suggests a decision to spend years in an effort to deliberately mislead the West’s public, via a compliant media, into believing that Syria’s rebellion was overwhelmingly ‘moderate.’”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-23/secret-pentagon-report-reveals-us-created-isis-tool-overthrow-syrias-president-assad

    • ianmac 7.1

      Imperialism by proxy?

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        Pepe Escobar refers to this as the empire of chaos.

        the US has history of shipping in Islamic militants, training and arming them, in order to undermine entire states. And interesting isnt it how despite all these anti ISIS US airstrikes, ISIS is able to close in on Damascus and Assad quite rapidly.

  8. felix 8

    Something Draco has often bought up here is the need for us to get out of the mindset of needless duplication, i.e. everyone having everything in every home.

    This looks like an example of a step in an interesting direction: Four tiny homes on a shared piece of land. Each tiny home has its own bathroom, but the kitchen and living area is in a shared building.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/home-property/68805274/Best-mates-build-tiny-row-of-houses-in-new-take-on-small-living-trend

    • Colonial Rawshark 8.1

      Yep. And these solutions are not new. Communitarian or social accommodation. Barracks, student hostels and monastaries all have set ups with similar principles. Simply update with modern ideas and for the modern sensibility – and voila – save a tonne of money on corporatised retirement accomodation.

    • weka 8.2

      Nice overview article. Biggest thing stopping this from happening in NZ is the lack of legal models for shared ownership.

      Chch was an ideal opportunity to work with these alternative housing options. I think a few people have done tiny homes there but not the shared resources bit.

      • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.1

        Biggest thing stopping this from happening in NZ is the lack of legal models for shared ownership.

        ???

        What do you mean??? Shared ownership of financial assets is an utterly standard situation. Whether it is company shareholders, spouses or people who have an account at a bank or managed by a hedgefund.

        • weka 8.2.1.1

          Outside of marriage it’s rare for people in NZ to share ownership of homes/land. It does happen but we don’t have good cultural practice yet on how to do it, and people get stuck on assets issues, what happens when someone wants out, how to make decisions collectively etc.

          There are many people wanting to do this but few really good examples that can be easily replicated. I know about it from people trying to go this with larger pieces of land, and it’s possible it might be easier on smaller suburban blocks. But again, Chch was the obvious opportunity and it hasn’t really happened. I think that’s because the right models don’t exist yet.

          • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.1.1.1

            Legal models for shared ownership of assets including property are a bog standard part of property and commercial law.

            Day to day living arrangements and how they would suit individuals living together are another matter.

      • joe90 8.2.2

        Biggest thing stopping this from happening in NZ is the lack of legal models for shared ownership.

        Off the shelf.

        http://www.homelegal.co.nz/tenancy-in-common/

        • weka 8.2.2.1

          Thanks. Let me clarify, by ‘model’ I mean the whole thing not just the legal structure. See my comment to CV above. Probably should have left the word legal out of my first comment.

          • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.2.1.1

            Everything from traditional Kiwi flatmates (shared cooking and shared bills) to communal student hostel living and everything in-between. There are many models and ideas familar to NZ culture to pick from. And if they don’t work, try out a Pasifika or Maori model extended family mode of living.

            • weka 8.2.2.1.1.1

              I’m talking about ownership. Try reading my comments properly.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                weka, I already answered above that there are many options for shared or joint legal ownership of assets including property.

                Now it is hardly my fault if you cannot accurately formulate what you are asking for. Ownership of assets falls under the area of commercial and property law. It’s very clear.

                • weka

                  🙄

                  I’m not asking for anything. I’m sharing some experience. I’m talking about what ordinary people are trying to do in sharing ownership of homes and why that is difficult in NZ. I’m guessing you are commenting again from a place of poor knowledge. If you can’t tell the difference between ownership and flatting, you could try listening instead of pontificating.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    So educate me. For starters maybe you can tell me what the non-legal aspects of property ownership structures you were referring to.

                    • weka

                      If a group of people buy land together with the intention of forming community, some of the issues that arise are around how to make decisions, and how to remove assets if someone wants to leave. Yes, the technicals on that exist, but how it plays out in real life isn’t always so straight forward (eg what happens if you want to sell but the other owners get to have a say in who buys in and you can’t find someone suitable?). There’s also a whole class thing that happens as well, around people with assets and how they protect them vs how they share them.

                      And how to just get on with each other in a living situation that many aren’t used to (I agree with you that Māori and Pasifika are better at this than Pākehā). The ‘model’ I am referring to is how to navigate this without having to reinvent the wheel all the time. Lots of people in NZ have done various models, and many have failed (esp intentional communities). There are some good successes too, but my original comment was pointing to these things not being cultural norms yet, so both regulations and patterns of relating haven’t evolved to support them.

                      In the linked article, the couples have known each other for 20 years. That makes a big difference.

                      Co-housing seems one of the more successful models in NZ, but most cohousing is for people with large buy in (eg they sell an existing house/have a big mortgage). I was interested in the article that was looking at medium level buy in (although I don’t think they talk about the land price), plus what felix was pointing to about shared ammenities.

                      I know of a few groups of people who’ve done rural subdivisions privately where the land is owned collectively but each family builds their own home. You need a certain group of people who know and trust each other for that to work. It does work, but it’s not common and I think the reason for that is that both around regulations on rural land, and that we’re not that good at sharing when it comes to larges amounts of assets, or how to make decisions in small groups once we get past whānau size. These are not unresolvable problems, we’re just not there yet.

                      Beyond that, and esp in response to what Maui said, I’m thinking of even lower buy ins. The moveable tiny home allows people more flexibility re commitment, and is way cheaper if land is rented instead of bought. There are still issues on how to live together.

                      Community Land Trusts are one of the models now being used in NZ. I’m not sure how successful that is yet and the one I am familiar with still has a substantial buy in.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_land_trust

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      There are a lot of nuances that you raise, and important ones weka.

                      In olden days, blood ties, tribal ties, religious ties, formed the basis of the trust, mutual understanding and common culture required for these things to work and work well.

                      I agree with you that its more difficult now and that it depends on each specific situation and each specific group of people and their dynamics.

                      If people want to be really arms length and independent away from each other then residential units or town house units might be used. But that’s not really communitarian living either.

                    • weka

                      what I find is that if you ask people you know who are talking about housing or home ownership whether they would share land with others, most people will just say no flat out, others will say yeah maybe, but it’s generally unclear what it means and how to do it and when they realise it’s a lot of work that becomes a barrier. A few will respond positively. What we need are models that make it much easier for the middle group to be more interested, as simple as say buying a house, or renting long term.

                    • weka

                      “In olden days, blood ties, tribal ties, religious ties, formed the basis of the trust, mutual understanding and common culture required for these things to work and work well.”

                      Yep that’s the one.

                      “If people want to be really arms length and independent away from each other then residential units or town house units might be used. But that’s not really communitarian living either.”

                      True, but it’s probably a step in the right direction. The set up in that article looks much more workable for most people I know than say an intentional community where families are more in each others space. It’s a mix of own space and shared space, and it sounds like they figured out how to make it work for them specifically. That’s closer to what most of us have been raised with so it makes sense.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Appreciate you taking the time to share the thoughts you have on this topic. I think this kind of project is going to be an important way forward for many.

          • joe90 8.2.2.1.2

            Ownership models and protocols were covered in this episode of Kevin McCloud’s Grand Designs about a self build community.

            (If you can beat the geo-blocking)

            http://www.channel4.com/programmes/grand-designs/on-demand/26262-003

            google turns up a few examples too

            http://www.cohousing.org.uk/category/4/27/case-studies

            http://www.selfbuild-central.co.uk/first-ideas/examples/hedgehog-co-op/

            http://www.selfbuildportal.org.uk/case-studies

            • weka 8.2.2.1.2.1

              Thanks joe. McCloud is always good. Not sure if I’ve seen that one, will have a look.

          • joe90 8.2.2.1.3

            This answers a few questions about structure and ownership.

            http://www.lilac.coop/about-lilac/faqs.html#ecovillage

      • Maui 8.2.3

        Yep sign me up! I’ve thought about looking for a small piece of land to put a tiny house on. Unfortunately land parcels don’t come in sizes of 50sqm.. Minimum Lot sizes where I live would be around 300sqm according to Council zoning, so no chance of subdividing existing land. The most feasible way would be finding a friendly farmer who doesn’t mind you renting a portion of paddock.

        • weka 8.2.3.1

          Would you consider shared ownership?

          The great thing about moveable tiny homes is they circumvent so many regulations. Renting land is going to be a good option for many going forward. It also means no mortgage and thus not supporting the pro-CC global economy.

          • Maui 8.2.3.1.1

            Yeah, I would. The trouble is I don’t really know anyone else who wants to do this – maybe it’s time to join the Transition Towns group. And then finding a vacant piece of land close to the city is important for me too.

            • weka 8.2.3.1.1.1

              Sounds like a good plan.

            • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.3.1.1.2

              There will be a lawyer or planner here who can give you suggestions. From an amateur standpoint it sounds to me like you need a bit of land which can be zoned for high density housing. Buy the land as a group. Buildings can then come and go on to the land leasehold. Just an example. Need to talk to the local council and its planners early on as if the concept does not fit into the district plan in some way, it won’t be able to proceed.

            • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.3.1.1.3

              Alternatively, find a group of people and buy a 5 bedroom house together. Knock off the mortgage collectively in a few years. It’s then collective and supportive living in your own home – for the younger set it’d be called flatting.

        • Macro 8.2.3.2

          Another solution is the movable cabin (less than 10 sq m so no need for building consent). A shared utility provides the kitchen, bathroom (building consent required here – but once that hurdle over your on your way). Decks between cabins and utility allow flow. A separate cabin as communal living space.
          I’ve seen a number of these springing up at my local beach. 4 or 5 small cabins linked by decks sharing a communal utility and living space.

          • felix 8.2.3.2.1

            No need for a 10m2 cabin to be movable. Schedule 1 of the building act applies. The important part is that to be legal as sleeping acom, it must be used in connection with a dwelling on the same property, which is where the fully consented kitchen/bathroom/living room comes in.

            As long as you have this legal “dwelling” on the property, and your 10m2 buildings contain no cooking or sanitary facilities, you can have as many of them as you like. There may be restrictions on how many people can live on your property at any one time, but that’s a question for your local council.

            You also have to make sure they’re no closer to each other or to any building or boundary than their own height.

            • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.3.2.1.1

              Ahhhh ha good tip felix

              • felix

                Schedule 1 is here: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0072/latest/DLM5770963.html

                It lists all the building work that you can do without a permit. Clause 3 is the relevant one in this matter.

                The work still needs to comply with the building code standards (NZS:3604) so you can’t build them out out cellophane and coat hangers.

                And as noted above, you still need to comply with the district plan for your area as well.

                BUT as long as you haven’t made enemies with your council officers or your neighbours you’re probably not going to be inspected, and you can avoid all the extra cost and hassle of the consent process.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Yes…can’t really start a community living project in a sincere fashion by pissing everyone off…

            • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.3.2.1.2

              Referencing my own comment above

              Jointly buy a decent sized section with a small house on it. Due diligence on the LIM to ensure that all consents are present and correct. Then build a number of those 10m2 sleeping huts around the site, within what is considered a permitted activity.

              • felix

                Excellent idea.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Ideally there would be money (and consents) to refit the main house as a common space; additional bathroom, open plan living area/dining, high capacity kitchen etc.

                  Whole thing could be owned as a company with the residents as shareholders; people could then buy in/sell their shares and come and go as their life circumstances required.

              • Maui

                Heh now we’re talking, just don’t call it a commune 😉

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  LOL. Well, social isolation is a killer; if there was a common area with a bar, a pool table, some arcades and board games, hobby space, piano etc. that would be a lot of fun. A different kind of living than sitting in front of a screen surfing the interwebs 😯 lolz

            • weka 8.2.3.2.1.3

              Felix, what’s the limit on how many dwellings with kitchen/bathrooms you can have on a residential site?

              The advantages of having it be moveable are that you don’t need building consent above the 10m2 (which makes it much cheaper), and you don’t have to own land. It’s a very affordable way to get housing for people that either build, or pay someone to build.

              Or in Macro’s scenario, you don’t need the cost of a consented shared amenities block.

              (I have a feeling some councils have reduced the minimum dwelling size to prevent people from doing this).

              • felix

                “what’s the limit on how many dwellings with kitchen/bathrooms you can have on a residential site?”

                That’s down to the zone rules of your local District Plan. Where I am it’s one, or one + an ancillary dwelling (sometimes called dependent person’s dwelling or granny flat, which contains all facilities but is limited to a certain maximum size). I don’t know how much this varies from place to place.

                Macro’s scenario still includes a shared utilities building of some sort. This has to be consented.

                • weka

                  Ok thanks.

                  “Macro’s scenario still includes a shared utilities building of some sort. This has to be consented.”

                  But not if it’s moveable I think. Sewerage and greywater would have to be though.

                  • felix

                    Ah yes that’s right. Sewerage and greywater, and stormwater, and probably a potable water supply.

                    And if your section is big enough and in the applicable zone you’re allowed to dispose of all of that on site (with an engineer’s design specific to your site for the council to approve), so that could work with a mobile building of some sort.

                    • Macro

                      Yes I have a mobile building at my beach section – its actually bigger than 10 sq m and comes in 2 parts that are wheeled onto the site and then placed together. The advantage is that it can be quickly built off site and located and ready to use within the day, and moved t a new site if necessary. I bought mine new about 7 years ago and it has been moved from just north of Auckland to the Coromandel Peninsula in that time.
                      We have this technology in NZ and i never ceases to depress and astound me that such buildings were never employed to house those who lost there homes in Christchurch. It takes 6 weeks to construct these small dwellings and they are of a very high standard complete with bathroom 2 bedrooms and well equipped kitchen. carpeted, outside deck areas, the lot. I understand Alan Gibbs has one on his property north of Helensville as well – so it gives you some idea of the standard of finish.

                    • weka

                      + zillion re Chch. They could have set up apprentice and owner/builder schemes too, so they would have upskilled a whole bunch of locals. Instead the dumb fucks in charge spend all that money at the start on motorhomes that no-one wanted to live in.

                      What’s involved in the move Macro? Is the building towable? By what?

                    • Macro

                      the web site is here:
                      http://www.go-homes.co.nz/
                      They are transported to the site then moved into position using a standard 4×4 ute. Hooked up to facilities – caravan plug (builders pole), water, waste can be normal sewage collection – but we used a separate septic system on the farm (separate grey water and black water)
                      http://www.naturalflow.co.nz/

  9. weka 9

    @GenerationZer0: The final #climatemeeting is in Wellington tomorrow 7pm at Rydges Hotel, 75 Featherston St. #fixourfuture

  10. weka 10

    Good interview for anyone wanting to understand the Greens co-leadership contenders (being chosen next weekend), or just the GP in general.

    http://ruminator.co.nz/its-not-easy-being-green-while-running-for-male-co-leader/

    • Incognito 11.1

      Have you seen the recent posts here on TS re. XX not even trying anymore with the nice middle digit gesture? Key has never tried because he never has, he doesn’t, and never will give a shit; it has nothing to do with ineptness although there’s a lot of that too.

  11. Draco T Bastard 12

    Nothing to Lose But Our Fears

    The paradox is that the Labour leadership (not just in Britain but elsewhere in the English speaking democracies as well) are so paralysed by fear and lack of confidence that they have failed to notice that the world has moved on. All the major central banks have abandoned the cautious conservatism of conventional monetary policy. The IMF has turned its back on austerity as a proper response to recession. The OECD says that inequality is not the price that has to be paid for economic efficiency but is a major obstacle to that efficiency.

    Other countries have shown how living standards higher than our own can be raised still further through an appropriate policy mix. The way is open to learn from them and to offer the British people a new approach to running the economy – one that does not require us to choose between social justice and economic efficiency (or, for that matter, between Labour’s core values and Tory “aspiration”) but that recognises that we will all be better off if we give proper value to all our citizens and to the contribution they can all make to the general welfare. There is no mystery as to how this can be done if we only open our eyes; the necessary policy levers are just waiting to be pulled.

    Hammer -> nail.

    • Maui 12.1

      Ok, so basically he’s saying Labour needs a new Vision because they can’t move left or right.

      “As to precisely what alternatives should be adopted, why not at least begin to think about them? They are not in short supply.”
      For the uninitiated, what policy ideas do you think Gould is thinking of for Labour?

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1

        I think he’s saying that Labour need to stand on principles again and to believe in those principles. The RWNJs are wrong but they believe in what they’re saying and people can tell. Labour, on the other hand, don’t really believe in what they’re saying largely because they’re saying the same things as the RWNJs and people can tell that too.

        It’s pretty much a giveaway when both major parties are selling the same vision.

  12. Craig H 13

    The remits up for discussion today at the Labour Region 5 conference were clearly concerned about that. Linking minimum wage to the average wage so they move upward of their own accord rather than at a politician’s whim, taxing wealth as well as income, UBI (some of the remits had clearly come from someone who had read the Big Kahuna), abolishing youth, training and starting out minimum wage rates, repealing a number of ERA amendments, promoting collective bargaining and awards etc.

    The Future of Work was also a big part of the day’s activities, as Grant Robertson gave a speech and then we did some workshopping on it. This commission’s work will inform Labour policy in this area, and is huge. UBI was also brought up here, and I suspect will become Labour policy at some point in the nearish future.

    Housing was brought up, and it is acknowledged as a big part of any future Labour government.

  13. joe90 14

    heh

    Manchester MP Gerald Kaufman described the new SNP intake as ‘goons’ and their behaviour as ‘infantile’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093537/Invasion-McManiacs-Boorish-Boozy-Picking-fights-Nicola-Sturgeon-s-alarmed-Commons-antics-SNP-s-yob-MPs.html

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