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Open mike 25/02/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 25th, 2021 - 195 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

195 comments on “Open mike 25/02/2021 ”

  1. Jester 1

    Australia are making us quarantine now on arrival due to the latest cluster, which is probably fair dinkum, as we still (and have always) made people coming from Australia quarantine for 14 days.

    Australian states burst travel bubble with New Zealand | Stuff.co.nz

    • David 1.1

      Struth mate, the kiwi government has sat on their hands with this one for over 6 months. Too right then fair dinkum Ozzies start calling time on this one sided deal.

      • Sanctuary 1.1.1

        Nothing betrays the middle class capture of our media like it's obsession with international travel. You'd think every new Zealander has a birthright to visit at least one tropical paradise annually and go shopping in NYC or London bi-annually. Instead of fretting over the chicken entrails about travel re-starting and printing every single whine from the international education and tourism sectors maybe our media could instead ask if this isn't a good time (with climate change and all) to re-set some national expectations around constant flying? This crazy idea that cheap package holidays to the Pacific or Asia are some kind of human right for the middle/lower middle class has been around since the beginning of this century anyway.

        • Ad 1.1.1.1

          Yes but can we please do that after I get to Skara Brae, the Patagonians mountains, and Jerusalem.

        • Jimmy 1.1.1.2

          The Greens must be happy at the moment with very few people travelling overseas between countries, the amount of planes in the sky is well down and therefore the amount of air pollution must be far lower at the moment.

          • Populuxe1 1.1.1.2.1

            Well, except for the Greens themselves of course

            • David 1.1.1.2.1.1

              Spot on.

            • Peter chch 1.1.1.2.1.2

              Yeah, like that nasty hypocrit Ricardo Menendez.

              and he even had the contempt for Kiwis to try and book a slot in MIQ under the grounds of being a critical worker (was he having a laugh?) and then a second time on National Security grounds.

              An embarrassment for the Greens. But then some would say the Greens are an embarrassment in themselves I suppose.

        • AB 1.1.1.3

          Killer first sentence there. Lovely balance and pivot at the mid-point between "media" and "like". 15 syllables one side, 13 the other, and an obsession echoing a betrayal.

        • McFlock 1.1.1.4

          It's Aus, not Rome. Lots of us have family over there, and vice versa. Shit, it's frequently cheaper to get to Aus than it is to get to the damned city the flight departs from (in BC times, anyway).

      • Gabby 1.1.2

        Crocky deck mite, strines larva wan sodded dale cobba.

    • Muttonbird 1.2

      Australian Covid-19 deaths/million – 35

      New Zealand Covid-19 deaths/million – 5

    • woodart 1.3

      the fact that you cant travel freely from state to state doesnt seem to get much attention. when aussies can agree amongst themselves what their rules are, THEN ,lets rave on about travel bubbles. until then, its just another headline in search of clicks.

    • Treetop 1.4

      It is about the risk of transmission in the community. Australia have been accommodating when NZ has had no community transmission.

      • Jester 1.4.1

        Yes but we haven't been as accommodating to them as we make them stay in MIQ for 14 days.

        • McFlock 1.4.1.1

          Only been a week or so since Vic had it's last local case.

        • Treetop 1.4.1.2

          It is a numbers game when it comes to the risk of bringing Covid into a country. It is a mistake to treat Australia differently.

          • lprent 1.4.1.2.1

            It is a mistake to treat Australia differently.

            Pretty much. Trust and diseases are mutually incompatible.

            It is like this company that National are promoting with a saliva test. They’re offering their own testing as proof that it is effective. Having Shane Reti MP pushing it like pharmaceutical sales rep on crack gives me no confidence at all. It just reminds me of the US state and federal representatives who were prostituting themselves with quack remedies mid last year. That resulted in some of the most shoddy fraud that I’ve seen for a while – and probably a lot of extra deaths.

            Covid debate becoming ideological Politik – probably paywalled

            The health department is doing the right thing and I trust them to do that. After all in the event of any outbreak, they are the people who have to clean up the mess. Health have something that they know works – so they concentrate on that. They’ll run their own tests so they are confident in any additions to the testing suite for NZ.

            I might have a different view if we established absolute liability for death and injury on the private sector. Something like hanging for guilty directors and bankruptcy for shareholders would go a long way to making me feel that they would commit to doing a good job.

            In the meantime, I trust civil servants and politicians somewhat more. Unlike the private sector the direct accountability is better.

            Incidentally I see that some self-interested idiots want to import the Scott Morrison diminution of director responsibility here. It appears that having successful cases against delinquent directors is making the director community more in touch with their responsibilities – and this is somehow unfair. Idiots…

            Now is not the time to copy Australia BusinessDesk – may be paywalled.

            • Treetop 1.4.1.2.1.1

              Australia has had issues with their banking directors.

              NZ trusting Australian banks is one thing. NZ trusting Australia to not export Covid-19 is another matter.

  2. Incognito 2

    This is good. No point trying to control and manage the pandemic if it is allowed to remain rampant in poorer parts of the world.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/300238753/covid19-ghana-becomes-first-nation-in-the-world-to-receive-covax-vaccines

      • Incognito 2.1.1

        What is supposed to be the take-home message of your link?

        Do you know what rampant means?

        Did you even read the number of low-and middle-income countries that are receiving vaccines for free through COVAX?

        Answer: 92 + another 90 and eight territories that might agree to pay COVAX for vaccines.

        Did you even read the number of doses of Covid-19 vaccines COVAX intends (AKA hopes) deliver this year around the world?

        Answer: close to 2 billion

        That would be a whole lot of people less to potentially incubate and mutate the virus and spread it.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1

          The purpose of the link is so one can have a wee look and see the countries where Te Virus is running rampant and causing a high number of deaths per million of population.

          These are not necessarily the low and middle income countries such, as Ghana.

          Ghana 80,759 confirmed cases, 582 total deaths, deaths per million 19.3

          Belgium757,696 confirmed cases, 21,956 total deaths, deaths per million 1911.87

          Which country has what could be described as "rampant" Covid 19?

          Roll out the vaccines, as it does look like they just might prevent serious disease in most folk…but they will not necessarily prevent spread of the virus.

          It’s important for everyone to continue using all the tools available to help stop this pandemic as we learn more about how COVID-19 vaccines work in real-world conditions. Experts are also looking at how many people get vaccinated and how the virus is spreading in communities. We also don’t yet know whether getting a COVID-19 vaccine will prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to other people, even if you don’t get sick yourself. CDC will continue to update this page as we learn more.

          Together, COVID-19 vaccination and following CDC’s recommendations for how to protect yourself and others will offer the best protection from getting and spreading COVID-19. Additional information can be found at key things to know about the COVID-19 vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html.

          • Barfly 2.1.1.1.1

            greatly reduced viral load – much lower rate of transmission

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.1.2

            Roll out the vaccines, as it does look like they just might prevent serious disease in most folk…but they will not necessarily prevent spread of the virus.

            Vaccination against COVID-19 is expected to prevent the spread of the virus in some and hopefully many cases, although not (of course) in all cases.

            Here, analyzing positive SARS-CoV-2 test results following inoculation with the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine, we find that the viral load is reduced 4-fold for infections occurring 12-28 days after the first dose of vaccine. These reduced viral loads hint to lower infectiousness, further contributing to vaccine impact on virus spread.

            Vaccinations are generally effective and necessarily imperfect preventative medical treatments designed to train human immune systems – anyone expecting/requiring a universal miracle cure will necessarily be disappointed.

          • Incognito 2.1.1.1.3

            The operative word is “remain”.

            You don’t seem to know the meaning of “rampant”.

            It is not a competition between which country is most rampant, but I’d say that Ghana seems to have much less control over the pandemic than Belgium. Surprising, isn’t it?

            You can make the comparison yourself using simple tools such as Google:

            https://news.google.com/covid19/map?hl=en-NZ&state=6&mid=%2Fm%2F0154j&gl=NZ&ceid=NZ%3Aen

            In Belgium, 731,352 vaccine doses have been given and 288,712 people have been fully vaccinated while in Ghana No data.

            Or here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

            For example, Belgium has conducted 807,546 tests/million people in the population but Ghana only 28,246 [Last updated: February 27, 2021, 08:09 GMT]. Can you spot the difference?

            Indeed, vaccination may not be a magic bullet and other simple tools and behaviours should remain in place.

  3. Incognito 3

    Beginners’ gains?

    Ardern and her colleagues can bask in the glow of some good first moves, but the future looks less rosy.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/437106/tackling-child-poverty-a-mountain-that-keeps-getting-steeper [by Max Rashbrooke]

    • Sabine 3.1

      rather lack of follow up and commitment.

      • Incognito 3.1.1

        Seems that way, doesn’t it?

        When the going gets tough, that’s when you show true commitment and dedication AKA grit and courage; everything else is just meaningless and without real impact in the long run.

        I’m hoping for a big follow-up move/package in Budget-2021 but there’s more chance of finding alien lifeforms on Mars than of that happening.

        • Sabine 3.1.1.1

          i put J.A. in same box that i put Obama. Nice and polite, some good intention that lead no where really, and at the end of the day utterly disappointing.

          • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1.1

            Hampered by consensus, compromise and concession. There's a fixation with bring parties together so that all agree.

            Nothing gets done.

            Well, sometimes you just have to ram through what you do want, and see if it sticks. Worked for our Covid response.

          • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.1.2

            "i put J.A. in same box that i put Obama" yes that is where I position her myself.
            Unfortunately I think that both Ardern and her supporters would be quite pleased with that comparison, while wilfully ignoring the fact that there is a straight line of cause and consequence leading from the massive disappointments and the business as usual terms of the Obama administration to the election of the’ burn the house down’ persona of Donald Trump.

            How the seemingly same ultimate disappointment in the non-delivery of Labour/Ardern will manifest itself in New Zealand is the question none of us can know the answer too yet.

            Turn Labour Left!

          • Gabby 3.1.1.1.3

            She's murdered way fewer people, so that's something.

            • Sabine 3.1.1.1.3.1

              Yes she did that. And so far that is the only thing she has accomplished. And it is a great accomplishment.

              But covid is something that she reacted too, a new event if you so like, while poverty, homelessness, and state sanctioned idiocy and complacency in regards to the aforementioned poverty and homelessness is something that is / has been ignored now for decades.

              And on that point she fails.

    • RedLogix 3.2

      After nearly 8 decades of govts all over the world trying different ways to lift people up off the bottom rungs of the ladder – the lesson has to be that it's damned hard to help people. Even when they want to be helped it can go so easily wrong.

      And how about we start giving this a name that makes sense. There is no such thing as 'child poverty' as a unique issue that can be 'fixed'. Or put another way, all children are 'poor' pretty much by definition. The proper name for this is 'family poverty'.

      NZ is a relatively prosperous little country that generates plenty of wealth – the question is why do some people so egregiously fail to access a decent share of it? Over the years here I can recall a thousand threads that have explored the various reasons why this might be – and most of them have at least some explanatory power – but none seem to be a whole answer in themselves.

      And why does the left persist in framing this as a zero sum game where we always suggest that in order to help the poor we have to take from those who are better off? And why is it so easy to construct narratives that are rooted in blame and divisiveness, rather than ones that appeal – like NZ's astonishing COVID response – to a collective sense of caring, achievement and solidarity?

      Maybe we should cut our governments some slack, we find it hard enough to help ourselves much of the time, so it's not surprising that it's really hard to do this at the scale of a whole society. But I'm actually optimistic in this one sense, rather than rushing in to this problem firing ideological silver bullets left and right – this govt seems to be taking the time to evolve organic solutions that stand a chance of working.

      My simple suggestion – accumulate the positives. Let everything else fall away. (If this sounds hokey, consider that this is exactly how evolution works.)

      • Gabby 3.2.1

        Did you just make up that 'the left … zero sum game' twaddle?

        • RedLogix 3.2.1.1

          In the whole time you've been here I doubt I can recall more than a handful comments from you that were anything more than small minded, petty denigrations or sly trolling.

      • Descendant Of Smith 3.2.2

        That is because the pendulum has swung back so much to "its your own fault get your shit together" from “as a society we can do things to help”.

        I agree that it isn't a zero sum game. Lifting GDP makes everyone richer and the world's GDP increases continues to lift more and more people out of poverty.

        The best description I have seen of it is an elephant.

        There is still across the world a tail of poverty i.e. less than $1 a day to live on, but then massive improvements in the bulk of the world – especially since WWII. Where the squeeze has come is in the middle class as you drop down to the trunk. The end of the trunk is raised as the top 5% have got wealthier.

        That's why we feel it so much in NZ – the working middle class is being squeezed to improve lives overseas.

        Private sector and political decisions however have not focussed on lifting our productivity through added value – they have focussed on low cost, low profit high volume – to some extent maximising the period through the 90's until now of the baby boomer dinkies – double income, no kids for domestic consumption including via tax benefits (lowering taxes when they reached maximum earnings capacity, tax incentives to utilise capital to purchase property, shifting the cost of their free tertiary study onto current generations) – and through rampant immigration and the reduction of added value for low cost exports – milk powder, raw logs. Remember when employers said "We can't afford pay rises unless we get tax cuts – well they got the tax cuts but really only the chief-executives and their ilk got the pay rises (and yep I think those million dollar salaries they get are simply legalised capital theft, a way of transferring company assets to their own pockets)

        In short the short-term profit motive rather than long term societal investment.

        Therein lies the problem. These things can't be fixed by fixing individuals – there are structural imbalances that can't only be fixed via high level change.

        The question that really arises is does the pendulum have to keep swinging further before we see any real significant change i.e. do the rich have to keep getting richer without contributing more to the common good, does the working middle class have to keep getting poorer, does essentially laissez-faire economics have to continue to dominate.

        Both WEAG and COV-ID-19 have given us an opportunity for a resetting of our thinking.

        edit: I would add that I think the right portray this as a zero sum game far more than the left. The mantras of there is only so much money, you have to cut costs, austerity, you can’t do this if you do that, councils should only do roads, sewerage and infrastructure, and so on. The right are the masters of binary thinking. It totally dominates their narrative.

        • RedLogix 3.2.2.1

          That's why we feel it so much in NZ – the working middle class is being squeezed to improve lives overseas.

          Absolutely. This idea has gained some real traction lately with the idea of The Elephant Curve. Or a more formal paper here. What these suggest is that on a global scale the relatively wealthy of countries like NZ have already been required to sacrifice substantially to allow the really poor to escape poverty. In one sense it's an astonishing achievement – except the people who paid for it were never really asked if they wanted to participate.

          The question that really arises is does the pendulum have to keep swinging further before we see any real significant change i.e. do the rich have to keep getting richer without contributing more to the common good,

          The same astonishing economic engines that have lifted so many out of poverty, have an innate tendency to enable exponential wealth accumulation. The basic rule of any and all economic activity is 'the more you have, the faster you can grow it'. This is the fundamental maths underlying all exponential growth.

          So perhaps one explanation for the Elephant curve is that while engine of globalisation has enabled the rapid growth of incomes especially for those offering the lowest and most competitive labour prices, at the same time the impact of exponential wealth accumulation still dominates the very top of the curve.

          And for developed countries like NZ our experience is covered by the top 10% or so of the curve – that steep part where we experience increasing inequality – while we completely miss out of the growth of incomes at the bottom end due to globalisation.

          The challenge here for the left in developed countries like NZ, is that while economic growth and human development have been amazingly good things from a global perspective – for the past few decades we've been missing out. And the finding practical solutions that don't involve 'bombing the village in order to save it' have been elusive indeed.

          Otherwise yes – thanks for the thoughtful response.

          • Descendant Of Smith 3.2.2.1.1

            From the elephant curve link.

            "The third factor is policy: the decline in tax rates, reduced taxation of capital and all of that."

            This is exactly what has happened in NZ. The thing is, is that the impact of this were not unknown. Historians could have told you exactly what would occur. We have been there done that in the past.

            The thing is is that the conservative right knew this as well. They knew they would increase their wealth at a much faster rate if these policies were enacted. There are NZ books on capitalism from the mid-1800's that explain all this.

            To a very, very large extent we are reaping what we sowed.

            • RedLogix 3.2.2.1.1.1

              the decline in tax rates, reduced taxation of capital and all of that.

              All pernicious trends that can be laid firmly at the feet of neo-liberalism – which is what happens when you take an economic model – capitalism in this case – and turn it into an ideology based on a narrow, materialistic value system that places the individual above all else.

          • arkie 3.2.2.1.2

            The same astonishing economic engines that have lifted so many out of poverty

            You attribute this to capitalism however that isn't entirely accurate:

            The biggest poverty victories in the past 30 years, however, aren't in the developed world. They're in India and China.

            721 million fewer people worldwide lived in extreme poverty in 2010 than in 1981 — despite the fact that the global population went from 4.5 billion to about seven billion during that time. About 80 percent of that poverty reduction happened in China alone.

            https://www.vox.com/2014/12/14/7384515/extreme-poverty-decline

            The dramatic progress in reducing poverty over the past three decades in China is well known. According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty; China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 0.7 percent in 2015

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

            • Descendant Of Smith 3.2.2.1.2.1

              Other significant factors I am aware of are:

              1. Educating women – this both increases their economic activity and reduces birth-rates (alongside access to contraception and legalised abortion)
              2. Increased access to electricity – increases productivity, saves time in essential household tasks and education (you can't study in winter with no or poor light)

              Maybe not things we might normally think about.

            • RedLogix 3.2.2.1.2.2

              Both China and India really only achieved that once they gained access to the global economy – and while they've both operated their own economic variants, they did not 'lift millions out of poverty' in isolation from the wider capitalist systems of the rest of the world.

              • arkie

                Ah I see, the rest of the world is responsible for China and India's success. No trace of idealogical bias here. /

                • RedLogix

                  Less 'responsible for' and more 'a condition of'.

                  • arkie

                    And who/what is responsible/a condition of the increasing inequality in the developed world?

                    The average level of inequality in developed countries has risen since the beginning of the eighties, while the population-weighted average indicates that such an increase started in the mid-sixties

                    https://epub.wu.ac.at/4529/1/Roser_Crespo-Cuaresma_2014_RIW_inequality.pdf

                    • RedLogix

                      In short a combination of the innate exponential nature of growth that we all enjoyed post-WW2 overlaid by an extremist neo-liberal ideology that exacerbated the underlying trend toward inequality from the 80's onward.

                      The first factor is in many ways a phase that is coming to an end with ageing demographics almost everywhere and declining populations in most developed nations.

                      The second factor neo-liberalism is an object lesson to politically aware people everywhere – as in 'what happens when you take a good idea and go too far with it'.

                • Peter chch

                  China, under Deng Xioping, was progressively opened up to the global economy and the previously suppressed entrepreneurial spirit of the Chinese was unleashed.

                  Was the 'rest of the world' responsible for Chinas 30 years of near exponential growth? No, of course not. But they did facilitate it.

                  The sad thing is that China could have been where it is now if it had not been for the Cultural Revolution. Mao achieved many great things (One/New China; literacy and so on), but the last 25 years of his life held the Chinese people back.

                  And to be clear, China in 2021 is in no way a ‘communist’ or even a socialist country. It is an empire that now exists for the benefit of its elite.

                  • RedLogix

                    Another way to look at it is – Taiwan being what the mainland could have been if not for the CCP.

                    • Peter chch

                      Yep Red, 100% true. Although Mao did unite China and end the endless internecine wars. Just did not realise when his used by date expired.

      • Muttonbird 3.2.3

        And why does the left persist in framing this as a zero sum game where we always suggest that in order to help the poor we have to take from those who are better off?

        Clearly because those who are better off have taken from the poor.

        • RedLogix 3.2.3.1

          Are our schools perfect? Do all students learn and develop to their best potential equally well? And do schools fall short for other students and can we imagine ways they could do better for them? Well yes of course – that's the wonderful aspect of being an idealist – you can always conceive of something better, something higher to aim at.

          But to argue that the more fortunate students got through their school lives because they 'stole from those who were less fortunate' would be an absurd conclusion because we all understand that knowledge and education are not zero sum games.

          At the other extreme we can understand that for example in a pre-industrial village of farmers, or pre-agricultural band of hunters would have in any given year a strict limit on how much food and resources were available to them. Scarcity imposed this.

          The interesting thing about modernity is that it falls somewhere between these two extremes and over time is trending toward away from zero sum toward something else far more vibrant.

          • Muttonbird 3.2.3.1.1

            You seem to subscribe to the 'life's not fair, deal with it' philosophy, also subscribed to by such luminaries as Mike Hosking and David Seymour.

            This philosophy embraces the current capitalist model with all its flaws, and encourages one to just beat the system. Anyone can do it, right?

            Your school analogy ignores the main driver in vastly differing student progress and that is home life, which as we know is itself a function of an increasingly inequitable society.

            Intergenerationally, the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

            All good though, right?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.4

        the lesson has to be that it's damned hard to help people

        yes for trying to be constructive RL. I have a different PoV – the lessons are:
        (1) It's easy to help people if that help is unconditional (more carrot, less stick); and
        (2) There's not enough unconditional help (nor conditional help) to meet the need.

        A clue is the (large) number of charitable organisations that aim to help those living in poverty. They do fantastic work (and if at first they don't succeed, then…), but when 10% of NZ citizens have accumulated a collective debt of $13 billion, you know there's going to be unmet need.

        Not that $13 billion is large relative to the $800 billion that the 'top' 10% have accumulated. Some might eventually realise that the solution to that $13 billion debt is obvious (and not actually hard at all), but that's an individual choice – "You can lead a horse to water…" Others (typically those who are better off) perceive only the (small) threat to their (relatively enormous) wealth that such an obvious solution represents.

        Maybe the focus on 'child poverty', as opposed to 'family poverty', came about because it neatly sidesteps the criticism so often levelled by wealthy righties that the root cause of poverty is incompetent, lazy adults who are egregiously failing to access a decent share of wealth. Even wealthy righties such as Bill English belatedly recognised the egregious failure of governing adults to address child poverty, so rightly or wrongly the term is here to stay, with political parties from the left and right using it as a stick with which to beat each other.

        My simple suggestion – accumulate the positives. Let everything else fall away. (If this sounds hokey, consider that this is exactly how evolution works.)

        How might letting 'everything' that isn't positive "fall away" help Rebecca?

        Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
        Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."

        A Kete Half Empty
        Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru

  4. Muttonbird 4

    Far out. This stuff has been know for decades and simply approved of by all and sundry.

    It's baffling that some in authority perhaps never agreed with it in the first place but said nothing for so long.

    Housing crisis: Reserve Bank Governor says auctions create FOMO, stops short of saying they should be banned

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/02/housing-crisis-reserve-bank-governor-says-auctions-create-fomo-stops-short-of-saying-they-should-be-banned.html

  5. Jimmy 5

    Has anyone else noticed some rather large price increases at the supermarket lately? I buy Purina One cat food in bags that used to be $18 a bag at Countdown, but were often on special for $15.99. I now notice that the normal shelf price is now $23 a bag! There also seems to be a supply issue as many of the other cat food lines seem to have empty shelf spaces.

    • Jimmy 5.1

      I see Pak n Save have the Purina One on special for $14.99 this week……..wow $8 cheaper than Countdown. Looks like I need to make the effort to go to PNS so the cats can eat this week!

  6. Gosman 6

    Has anyone heard of The Kohimarama Conference that took place between the Governor of NZ and the leaders of Iwi from around NZ in August 1860? It seems to put a lie to the argument that Maori never gave up sovereignty when they signed the Treaty of Waitangi.

    Here is an extract from the resolutions that the Iwi leaders themselves made which show they were well aware of where sovereignty in NZ lay.

    "

    The Chiefs having assembled in the Conference Hall, Paikea rose and proposed the following Resolution:—

    "That this Conference takes cognizance of the fact that the several Chiefs, members thereof, are pledged to each other to do nothing inconsistent with their declared recognition of the Queen's sovereignty, and of the union of the two races; also to discountenance all proceedings tending to a breach of the covenant here solemnly entered into by them."

    "

    http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BIM504Kohi-t1-g1-t4-body1-d2.html

    • Brigid 6.1

      The Kohimarama Conference, organised by Governor Browne, was aimed at convincing Māori leaders to reject the Maori King Movement and justify the Government's war in Taranaki.

      • Gosman 6.1.1

        What is your point?

        • Brigid 6.1.1.1

          My point is:

          "The Kohimarama Conference, organised by Governor Browne, was aimed at convincing Māori leaders to reject the Maori King Movement and justify the Government's war in Taranaki."

          Would you like it in a three part harmony rather than simple text?

          • Gosman 6.1.1.1.1

            Again what is your point? That does not in anyway take away what the Iwi leaders agreed to at the Kohimarama Conference. It is quite clear a significant amount of Iwi knew very well that sovereignty in NZ lay with the Crown in 1860 and that derived from the TOW.

        • Tricledrown 6.1.1.2

          Gosman a few leaders agree is not unanimous or democracy.You are trying to rewrite history you will find some tribes were on the crown side others not.

          You keep using Mana without knowing what its means trying to put up deliberately divisive arguments. Playing your Trump Card remember John Key giving Don Maori Bash a good telling off for undermining Nationals coalition with the Maori Party.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2

      Is that you Dr Brash?

      Brash on Maaaaaris
      Maori are a diluted race who have intermarried until "few, if any" remain full-blooded, says National leader Don Brash. He says Maori are different from other indigenous people around the world and also labelled judges as "out of touch" with the rest of New Zealand over their left-wing views on the Treaty of Waitangi.
      Brash's comments came in a week when Prime Minister Helen Clark labelled him "cancerous", partly over the race-relations debate he sparked in 2004 over his first Orewa address as party leader.
      Brash was asked by the Herald on Sunday to comment on a speech by High Court judge David Baragwanath to the Law Commission last month which raised the possibility that Maori might need separate legal treatment and highlighted the lack of Maori in the legal profession.
      Brash said the judge's approach put him "totally at odds with my view of the way New Zealand should proceed".
      "He continues to talk as if the Maori remain a distinct indigenous people. There are clearly many NZers who do see themselves as distinctly and distinctively Maori – but it is also clear there are few, if any, fully Maori left here. There has been a lot of intermarriage and that has been welcome."
      Brash said Baragwanath's speech would reinforce the opinion held of the judiciary. Asked if that meant they were out of touch, he said: "Yeah, that's probably fair comment."
      Brash also said that nothing should be read into the few Maori at law school. "Non-Maori are under-represented in the All Blacks. It doesn't mean the Treaty failed."

      http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2006/09/now-this-is-reason-don-brash-is-unfit.html

      • Gosman 6.2.1

        That does not seem to address any of the points raised by my post on The Kohimarama Conference. Did you want to discuss that or Dr Brash? I have no interest in discussing Dr Brash so you will be on your own there.

    • McFlock 6.3

      lol where's the Māori translation of that resolution.

      • Gosman 6.3.1

        By 1860 I am pretty sure most of the Iwi leaders taking part had a good working relationship in the English language. In fact if you take the time to read the link I gave you the meeting itself seems to be largely driven by the Iwi leaders themselves.

        • McFlock 6.3.1.1

          How could a resolution be passed unanimously if only "most" of the participants had a working relationship with the language in which it was conducted?

          But it seems that translations were indeed used, and had similar issues of imprecision as had ToW.

          • Gosman 6.3.1.1.1

            Very interesting link thanks McFlock

            I refer you to the following quote from that same document:

            "Thus the proposal was incorporated in a major resolution passed unanimously at the final session: 'That this Conference takes cognizance of the fact that the several Chiefs, members thereof, are pledged to each other to do nothing inconsistent with their declared recognition of the Queen's sovereignty, and of the union of the two races, also to discountenance all proceedings tending to a breach of the covenant here solemnly entered into by them.

            This was, indeed, the kind of endorsement that the government was seeking. Not only did the resolution settle doubts about the allegiance to the Crown obtained in 1840, but it also committed tribes, such as Arawa, who had not signed the treaty. Having gained thereby the unanimous assent of most of the major Maori tribes to the Queen's sovereignty the government had cause to feel reasonably satisfied that the conference had served its main purpose"

            [RL: Please check your Name autofill. You have unintended text in it causing this comment to go into moderation.]

          • Gosman 6.3.1.1.2

            Very interesting link thanks McFlock

            I refer you to the following quote from that same document:

            "Thus the proposal was incorporated in a major resolution passed unanimously at the final session: 'That this Conference takes cognizance of the fact that the several Chiefs, members thereof, are pledged to each other to do nothing inconsistent with their declared recognition of the Queen's sovereignty, and of the union of the two races, also to discountenance all proceedings tending to a breach of the covenant here solemnly entered into by them.

            This was, indeed, the kind of endorsement that the government was seeking. Not only did the resolution settle doubts about the allegiance to the Crown obtained in 1840, but it also committed tribes, such as Arawa, who had not signed the treaty. Having gained thereby the unanimous assent of most of the major Maori tribes to the Queen's sovereignty the government had cause to feel reasonably satisfied that the conference had served its main purpose"

            • Brigid 6.3.1.1.2.1

              Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that indeed several chiefs at this conference did declare recognition of the Queen's sovereignty.

              So what?

              It doesn't invalidate the fact the the two versions of the treaty were not consistent on the issue of sovereignty.

              Or are you implying that the declarations at this conference invalidated the Maori version of the treaty.

              You're so bloody transparent Gosman it's hilarious

              • Gosman

                Except it seems quite clear that what was signed at Waitangi 20 years before was taken to mean by the Iwi leaders present at Kohimarama to be that Sovereignty (Mana) was in the hands of the Crown. There was no dispute around that. There was even an acknowledgement by the son of Kawiti (who rebelled with Hone Heke in 1845) that the actions carried out by his father and Heke were at odds with the Treaty and wrong.

            • McFlock 6.3.1.1.2.2

              This was, indeed, the kind of endorsement that the government was seeking.

              Funny how that happened at a meeting to which they invited the representatives, chaired, and for which they wrote the minutes that recorded unanimous support.

              It's almost as if the people that the government had been, were currently, or were very shortly to be shooting at didn't really turn up to the meeting in any number.

              • Gosman

                I have already given you example of Kawiti's son being present. Te Rauparaha's son was also there and spoke in favour of the resolution. These were representatives of two of the Iwi who had actually got in to armed conflict with the British up till this point.

                • McFlock

                  And so the New Zealand Wars were ended peacefully and we all lived happily ever after.

                  • Gosman

                    If we are going to teach NZ History on a wider basis at school we need to teach the entire History not just one version of it wouldn't you agree McFlock?

                    • McFlock

                      Says the dude who can't even refer to an entire article, just cherry-picks paragraphs that suit his narrative when they are taken out of context.

                    • Gosman

                      No I am quite happy to take the entire article in to account. Nowhere in the article does it dispute that Maori at the conference did not understand that the Queen held ultimate authority (read sovereignty/mana) in NZ and that was derived from the TOW.

                    • McFlock

                      Nowhere in the article does it dispute that Maori at the conference did not understand that the Queen held ultimate authority (read sovereignty/mana) in NZ

                      p74:

                      In 1860, McLean translated 'sovereignty' as nga tikanga me nga mana kawanatanga katoa, the authority and all the powers of governorship, a rendering that expanded on kawanatanga, yet added little of the sense of 'sovereignty'. Later in the conference he omitted any reference at all to kawanatanga, emphasizing instead the protection, or maru, that derived from sovereignty.

                      p75:

                      One might have assumed that the word mana would have caused a degree of unease amongst the chiefs had they considered the Queen's mana to be a challenge to their own. But apparently this was not so. Commitment to the Kuini mana was seen only in terms of benefits to be received. And later, Maoris would claim that their mana had been guaranteed to them at the 1860 conference.

                      also:

                      It seems very likely that several meanings for mana were understood; the first was the mana of the Queen who personified the sovereignty, or maru, ceded in 1840 (an understanding either conveyed during the con-ference or confirmed by conference discussion);72 secondly, beneath this stood the mana kawanatanga, the benevolent governorship deriving from the Queen; and then, alongside kawanatanga existed the Maori mana or rights—the whole confirmed in their relationships by the treaty of Waitangi. That this understanding was possible is suggested by Te Hapuku's exposition of Maori rights. He seems to have believed that Maori chiefs could enjoy a similar, if not equal status to that of gover-nors under the Queen: 'If only a position like that of a Governor were claimed for their King, [Tawhiao]73 there being one Queen, it would be well; and let Taiaroa74 also be made King for the other Island, for he has a separate Island. The Europeans have many Islands, and many Kings; but all derive their authority from the Queen alone.'75

                    • Gosman

                      Your last point is the key one. Maori mana stemmed from (i.e. it was subject to) the mana of the Queen. The Queen (i.e. Crown) held the ultimate mana (i.e. sovereignty) over NZ. There is no dispute about that in the article you linked to.

                    • McFlock

                      There is no "key" one. There were multiple understandings even of the single word you think substitutes perfectly for "sovereignty".

                      And to claim it for a single quote that has multiple equivocations is just typical gossimer-talk, I guess.

                    • Gosman

                      How about you give your take on what YOU think the Iwi leaders thought they were agreeing to when they affixed their marks/signatures to the declaration that came out of the Kohimarama Conference.

                      How about it McFlock? What is your take on what they meant when they agreed to wording and signed it.

                    • McFlock

                      My take is that some tory selectively quoting without context on an online blog is not a substitute for a dedicated commission of professionals considering specific claims in some sort of tribunal.

                      If we have such a commission or tribunal, my take is that any tory raising such a discussion is simply attempting to sow division and discord in NZ for their own duplicitous purposes.

                      The Waitangi Tribunal has made multiple determinations on what Māori did and did not cede when signing the Treaty.

                      But it has been fun watching you slither around trying to sow division and discord by doing the minimum reading possible, hiding behind vague summaries of the words of others, and then dripfeeding evidence for your claims only when requested.

                      It's good to see toryland so weak and infantile at the moment, both in the House and online.

                    • Gosman

                      LOL

                      A variation of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

                      Is that the best you have?

                    • McFlock

                      Says the personification of logical fallacies.

                      It's not an appeal to authority, because I'm not asserting a point.

                      It's a realisation that there are some aspects of NZ that one doesn't become an expert in through arguing with disingenuous tories (who are probably just pissed off that the Māori Party is advocating for increased benefit levels, and a good old stoush about ToW is always a tory go-to way to dogwhistle to their base without being Don Brash-level racist).

                      I'm not making a counter-assertion. I merely sought to clarify your own reasoning as to why you made comment 6, and your assertion seems to be that:

                      • the KC overrules ToW; and
                      • the KC proves Māori ceded the European understanding of "Sovereignty" to the British monarchy

                      Neither proposition can apply to all Māori based on the simple number of signatories, and the second is almost infinitely debatable on an online platform (a point of which you are most probably aware).

                      And as always I suspect you, personally, of having a duplicitous motive for initiating any discussion on this website.

          • Gosman 6.3.1.1.3

            As for the Te Reo translation I refer to this section:

            "Yet 'sovereignty' was also translated at the conference as mana. Tuhaere, in referring to the conference, claimed that it was 'the real treaty upon which the sovereignty (mana) of the Queen will hang'. The final resolution recognized the Queen's sovereignty (mana)"

            People have argued that if the Treaty of Waitangi ceded sovereignty to the Crown then it should have used the term Mana. The Kohimarama Conference did in fact use the term Mana.

            • Brigid 6.3.1.1.3.1

              'People have argued…..'

              Of course they bloody have.

              Jesus effing christ

            • McFlock 6.3.1.1.3.2

              How you manage to pretend a definitive translation for "sovereignty" was used based on a piece that argues the opposite is most entertaining, but you really are full of shit.

              So much for your suggestion that the representatives had unanimously endorsed a statement in English based on their "working relationship" with the language.

              • Gosman

                The article YOU linked to states that the word used in the final declaration in the Te Reo translation was Mana. Why does this not equate to Sovereignty?

                • McFlock

                  Read several pages of the link from page 75 onwards. The nuances and context of the translations are exhaustively discussed.

                  Your proposal that complex abstract terms perfectly "equate" from one language to another is a different type of bullshit.

                  • Gosman

                    I'm just going off what a number of people have stated about the TOW in relation to sovereignty. They have stated that if it was really surrendering sovereignty that it should have been translated as Mana. In this conference it was translated to mean that in relation to what the Crown had as a result of the TOW.

            • Descendant Of Smith 6.3.1.1.3.3

              Yet ultimately the semantics play little part in the subsequent actions by the crown to ride roughshod or alternatively to give Maori the same treatment as british citizens – pay rates at 1/10th of the rate paid to british workers by employers for instance were allowed to run rampant with no protection by the crown, the protection of tenths another, the peppercorn leases to white settlers and so on.Treaty settlements outline that history well.

              The Crown breached their side of the bargain in so many, many ways that continues today.

              • Gosman

                Maori had recourse to the courts. Did they challenge these abuses?

                • McFlock

                  Gotta love that recourse to the courts in the victorian era in particular.

                  Better now, but not perfect.

                • Descendant Of Smith

                  Actually they petitioned the king in many many cases for many many years – the person who was actually the sovereign.

                  And when the courts did decide that many land sales were invalid parliament made them valid again.

                  1894 Validation of Invalid Land Sales Act.

                  ​​​​​​​Any pākehā misdealings concerning Māori land were legitimised.

        • Gabby 6.3.1.2

          Which iwi did the named individuals represent? You'd know that I guess, as you seem to think they were representative of maoridom?

          • Gosman 6.3.1.2.1

            Over 200 Iwi leaders from ALL over the North Island.

            Are you disputing the mana of these leaders?

            • McFlock 6.3.1.2.1.1

              but not ALL iwi leaders even in the North Island (let alone ALL Aotearoa).

              • Gosman

                The TOW was not signed by all Iwi leaders in NZ either. The key thing is that the Iwi leaders at this conference represented a significant (probably a majority) of the Maori population of NZ at that time.

                • McFlock

                  ToW had something like 500 signatories. KC had half that 20 years later. Both had obvious translation issues.

                  • Gosman

                    There are a few reasons why there were more signatories to the Treaty than who signed up to the declarations made from the Kohimarama Conference. What is clear is that the conference was a far more considered affair than the Treaty and the people involved were far more targeted to be key individuals rather than just trying to get as many signatures as possible.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, I'm not disputing that the government targeted invitations with a specific outcome in mind. In fact, I suspect their translations and minutes were equally well considered.

                      Why do I suspect that?

                      Because if the desired outcome were to peacefully and honourably resolve any disputes regarding the Treaty, the KC was a bigger fuckup than the Treaty itself.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  The Covenant of Kohimarama
                  A RATIFICATION OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI
                  – Claudia Orange (1979)

                  'I imagine that a day will come not long hence, when the preposterous Waitangi treaty will be overruled and the ridiculous claims of the native to thousands of . . . acres of untrodden bush . . . will be no longer able to damp the ardour & cramp the energies of the industrious white man'.

                  Consider also this excerpt, given the origin of those "evils":

                  It will be the wisdom of the Maori people to avail themselves of this generous policy, and thus save their race from evils which have befallen others less favored.

                  Re sovereignty:

                  The issue of more immediate concern in 1860 was the government's problem of the crisis in Maori affairs. During the conference, British sovereignty somehow had to be confirmed; but it was essential to obtain Maori assent without appearing to trespass on Maori rights, or mana, particularly those relating to land. Implicit in a European understanding of sovereignty is the acquisition and exercise of territorial rights. Yet to dwell on these aspects would surely have been as unwise in 1860 as it had been in 1840. Almost certainly, then, the Maori chiefs were encouraged to understand 'sovereignty' in the protective sense, as the Crown's benevolence. This is suggested in the Maori records.

                  How can these apparent contradictions be reconciled? Perhaps the answer lies in the understanding of 'sovereignty' and mana conveyed during the conference?

                  An insightful expert analysis of the meaning/understanding of ‘sovereignty‘ during that period (1840 – 1860); well worth a read imho.

                  • Gosman

                    We have just been discussing that very text.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, it's a pretty well-rounded document that looks at the issue from a number of perspectives and sources. You've only been discussing the bits that have the perspectives you agree with.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Claudia Orange's paper on the Covenant of Kohimarama seemed relevant to the discussion. Apologies if that paper had already been linked to upthread, and if II’ve repeated what's already been written – I do try to resist the tendency to introduce certain topics and then go on like a drain about them wink

  7. Ad 7

    The Hong Kong government yesterday announced that anyone running for local councils must be a "patriot". Meaning that they must swear loyalty not to their constituents but to Beijing and the Chinese Communist Party.

    The pro-democracy councillors will be expelled. Disqualified candidates will be barred from running for 5 years.

    After the national security law was passed last year, this was a last vestige of elected members serving the people.

    It just underlines why China must be resisted- by us and every other strong democracy.

    Of course, fools will step in and say this should not be believed and the US is somehow to blame.

    Good to see Canada's Parliament vote against this lie yesterday and rebuke China's scourge of the Uighur peoples.

  8. Heather Grimwood 8

    The wording of the above petition was certainly not phrased by folk with English as a second language!

  9. gsays 9

    Watching Frickin Dangerous Bro last night, waiting for the hour delay Wellington Paranormal.

    The FDB trio visited Feilding, my home town. Looking through the Coach Museum, they came across a sign for Pakeha Butter. There were a couple of quips and the one that stayed with me was: "Is it called Pakeha Butter because it spreads everywhere?".

    It is refreshing, a chance to laugh at ourselves.

  10. Siobhan 10

    Well well well….from the Guardian .this morning

    "Amnesty strips Alexei Navalny of 'prisoner of conscience' status".

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/alexei-navalny-loses-amnesty-prisoner-of-conscience-label

    I do love the obfuscation of the wording…

    "Employees of Amnesty International said the organisation had received messages about Navalny’s past remarks that they felt “were part of a coordinated campaign to discredit him abroad”, but nonetheless felt compelled to change his designation."

    I gather by 'compelled' and "coordinated campaign' they infact mean…the actual facts Navalny being a on the record as a populist racist. (this still being easily verifiable despite Googles sterling job at disappearing 99% of references to one particular video), not to mention Navalny's breaking the terms of his parole, and recieving, by international standards, a light sentence.

    Of course if they had kept this low key ..and not spent a veritable fortune bombarding us with their Navalny message ..they may well have slipt under the radar.

    I'd like to give myself, and anyone else on here, who has been vigilantly responding to the unbelievable tsunami of Amnesty International adverts on Facebook, advocating for Navalny, …a pat on the back.

    One can but hope this is the small crack that leads to the demise of Russiagate in all its various forms.

    • Adrian Thornton 10.1

      "One can but hope this is the small crack that leads to the demise of Russiagate in all its various forms."

      I wouldn't hold my breath on that one..

      Hidden Russiagate docs expose more misconduct, evidentiary holes: ex-investigator

      "As a senior House Intel investigator and Trump administration official, Kash Patel helped unearth critical misconduct by the intelligence officials who carried out the Trump-Russia probe. In his first extended interview since leaving government, Patel tells Aaron Maté that still-classified documents expose more malpractice, as well as major evidentiary holes in the pivotal — and largely unquestioned — claims of a sweeping Russian interference campaign to elect Trump in 2016. According to Patel, the release of these critical documents was "continuously impeded."

    • alwyn 10.2

      "not to mention Navalny's breaking the terms of his parole"

      You do realise that this means he didn't report to his Russian parole officers because at the time he was in a coma in a German hospital after he had been poisoned by the Russian secret police apparatus?

      I have a certain sympathy with his excuse.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/02/02/i-was-in-a-coma-navalny-ridicules-allegation-he-failed-to-meet-parole-officers-in-moscow-court-hearing/?sh=17d9d32a3771

      • Brigid 10.2.1

        Absolute rubbish. He was in a coma for 8 months was he?

        Navalny "was supposed to appear at penitentiary inspection office at least twice a month on the days appointed by the penitentiary inspection. However, he skipped these check-ins at least six times in 2020, specifically on January 13, January 27, February 3, March 16, July 6, and August 17. "

        He "was not summoned for registration during the period of his treatment at Berlin’s Charite clinic."

        https://tass.com/russia/1252005

        So it pays to check the facts before you blithely spread anti Russian propaganda

        • The Al1en 10.2.1.1

          Love the irony when put in context with Arsange skipping bail lol

          • Adrian Thornton 10.2.1.1.1

            Ahhh the camp guard dog enters the fray…sit boy sit!

            • The Al1en 10.2.1.1.1.1

              That's funny. You call me a dog yet you're the one who's barking. cheeky

              • Morrissey

                No, he was pointing out your pavlovian response to any challenge to the official misinformation campaign against Russia. You are the one who's barking, not the person who pointed out that you were barking.

                • The Al1en

                  I think it was more a desperate insult trying to disenfranchise my comment.

                  Going on your amateur stenographer history, I'm not surprised you have issues reading between the lines, but surely the actual words should be easy enough.

                  • Adrian Thornton

                    It was a joke (but yes wrapped in an insult) that I thought worked quite well.

                    Al1en ..frankly I am very disappointed in you, that the best counter that you can come up with today is that I was trying to "disenfranchise" your comment, seriously?…come on man up your game, I know you can do better.

                    C-…must try harder.

                    • The Al1en

                      Yeah, it was sort of funny, which is why I blew the raspberry in my reply that bit back, but to claim it wasn't designed to shut me down and disenfranchise doesn't read correctly.

                      Anyway, still doesn't change the irony that some will attack Navalny for missing check in appointments yet excuse another jumping bail.

        • alwyn 10.2.1.2

          You don't really use Tass as a source of "facts" do you?

          I would trust Tass about as much as I would believe that fellow Trump. On second thoughts that is a bit tough on Trump. I would trust Tass about as much as I would believe something by that Tova O'Brien woman. Not At All.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 10.2.1.2.1

            Tisk tisk – surely there are a few times you've been on the same page as O’Brien.

            Just hours before we meet, O'Brien has essentially called for Health Minister David Clark's resignation on The AM Show, after a third embarrassment in which he admitted moving houses in alert level 3. While the prime minister said she was comfortable with it, he'd already admitted breaking the rules twice.

            Later that night, during a live cross on the 6pm news, O'Brien again says Clark shouldn't be in the job. O'Brien's consistent questioning of the PM about Clark has been criticised as being at the expense of focus on bigger issues.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300000983/political-muckraker-tova-obrien-take-a-step-back-before-you-have-a-go

            • alwyn 10.2.1.2.1.1

              I would suggest that I regard O'Brien as being like a cat that has caught a mouse and plays with the poor thing.

              She runs for the hills though when she runs into someone who really doesn't give a damn about her. Then she behaves like a cat being chased by a German Shepherd.

      • Nic the NZer 10.2.2

        Alwyn, why are you going soft on political criminals?

        Assange was allowed to leave the country just because he never got the prosecutions text (out of phone credit) to say he ought to report to the police now, please. Everybody understands if he had he would probably be enjoying a Cuban holiday by now. Why this other standard for Navalny when the courts already considered his guilt?

  11. Stuart Munro 11

    Pinata anyone? Maybe they can do some local talent too.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1

      Absolutely. Good on David Parker for trying to investigate the true distribution of wealth in NZ. As he says in your linked article

      “I think governments need good data for wealth distribution,” Parker said.

      “It's accurate at the bottom, it's not accurate at the top,”

      Such a shame Labour are so utterly determined to protect and defend appalling wealth inequality. The rich own everything and pay less tax than everyone.

      Treasury figured that the top 10 per cent of New Zealanders owned 59 per cent of all wealth, which it considered to be an “underestimation”.

      At top end of estimates – using Reserve Bank data – Treasury believed the top 10 per cent of New Zealanders owned 70 per cent of all wealth. However it warned that the data was unreliable enough that this could be “underestimated or overestimated”.

      Regardless, the top 1 per cent of New Zealanders owned between 20 per cent and 25 per cent of all wealth depending on which calculation was used.

      • Bearded Git 12.1.1

        Agreed Uncooked….people discuss income/wages far too much when the true issue is wealth distribution/who owns the assets.

        A CGT brought in now will not work in regard to redistributing wealth because it starts from a date where the top 5% already own most of the assets and these are already at high values and they would only have to pay CGT on any price increase from that date when they sell the asset.

        The Greens' Wealth Tax, or similar, is the answer.

    • Sabine 12.2

      We get these write ups about rich people only declaring the lowest income (thanks accountants everywhere and tax loopholes/writeoffs/ etc) every two years, but surely the new wealth tax from Grant Robertson will be the one tax all the rich people with incomes above 150.000 NZD will pay.

      yeah, right Tui.

    • Barfly 12.3

      well a good political move – Let the people decide – include a referendum on a wealth tax in the next election … I predict it would bolt in and essentially mandates the government and give it a big fat push

  12. Anne 13

    Bridges at it again:

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300239000/bridges-v-coster-top-cop-in-fiery-spat-with-national-mp-over-gang-numbers-and-policing-by-consent

    Of course its not really the top cop he's after… its the government. The top cop's crime is he was appointed by this government.

    Yeah… they're soft on crime voters. You're gonna have gang members breaking into your house and trashing everything n' going on killing sprees and the cops are just going to stand by and let it happen.

    That's the message and what's the bet Collins is right there behind him. The good cop/bad cop routine only its hard to tell which is which.

    • The Al1en 13.1

      and what's the bet Collins is right there behind him. The good cop/bad cop routine only its hard to tell which is which.

      I thought that a couple of days ago, with the "wokester" comment and soft hand slap that followed, though I went with shit cop/shitter cop.

      It's still a toss up as to which is which.

    • Barfly 13.2

      Bridges knows full well his target is not allowed to defend himself – it's the usual National arsehole behaviour

    • Treetop 13.3

      Next Bridges will be saying that Coster is over paid.

      Is there any history between Coster and Bridges?

      • Anne 13.3.1

        "Is there any history between Coster and Bridges?"

        Not that I know of. As I said, Coster's crime is, he was appointed by a Labour led govt.

        It is really the govt. Bridges is trying to smear through the Police Commissioner.

        It's so blatant it would take a total dickhead to try it on and think they can get away with it. Bridges is a dickhead.

        • Treetop 13.3.1.1

          Bridges is lacking maturity. Both Bridges and Coster hold positions where they need to ensure the community is safe from guns.

          Hard being an opposition MP when you have no policy with substance to offer.

    • arkie 14.1

      How much of this is the Govt washing its hands of responsibility for housing affordability do you think?

      • Pat 14.1.1

        Can be viewed as the contrary….if they are now directing monetary policy as well

      • Nic the NZer 14.1.2

        http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=46942

        A discussion of how central bank independence alignes with the discipline of markets rather than the discipline of democracy.

        Though the implications of central banks independence is vastly overstated.

        • Pat 14.1.2.1

          All well and good excepting that central bank independence in western economies has been accepted (demanded) practice since the Thatcher and Reagan ….the mantra 'the market knows best' is incompatible with political interference…I doubt it will be viewed favourably.

          • alwyn 14.1.2.1.1

            I think it is a desperate attempt by Robertson to try and set up the RBNZ as the people who cop the blame for the shambles that this Government has been making of the housing market for the last three and a half years.

            I suspect it will backfire on him (Robertson). Orr is far to smart to allow Robertson to get away with such a transparent attempt to pass the parcel.

            Orr is quite likely to take it as an invitation to tell Robertson, publicly, what he thinks will be required to fix the housing situation. Nothing he proposes will be something the the RBNZ can do. Everything will be something that requires fiscal action by Robertson himself. It will be on the basis of "If you don't do this it will get worse". What he will suggest is very unlikely to be acceptable to the Government but Orr can then continue in the future to propose that "if the Government had only followed our advice…… etc".

            I think Robertson will come to his senses and never mention the topic again.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.2.1.1.1

              I think it is a desperate attempt by Robertson to try and set up the RBNZ as the people who cop the blame for the shambles that this Government has been making of the housing market for the last three and a half years.

              Shambles! Shambles? Did someone say 'shambles'?

              There’s no excuse for Government inaction, of course, but I reckon it could be worse; how about a nine-year shambles.

              Instead, we need government leadership that is prepared to focus on the fundamental issues driving the crisis. National is ready to provide that leadership. Earlier this month [August 2007] I announced our four-point plan for improving home affordability:

              1. Ensuring people are in a better financial position to afford a house.
              2. Freeing up the supply of land.
              3. Dealing with the compliance issues that drive up building costs.
              4. Allowing state house tenants to buy the houses they live in.
              • alwyn

                Things weren't too bad from about 2009 to 2012. Then it all went bad again and we went back to the same mad situation that we had from 2000 to 2008 and then from 2013 until today.

                I not sure if anything during this period has been quite as bad though as the Progressive Home Ownership scheme which seems to have spent some enormous amount to house 12 families. I have seen claims regarding the amount spent but I have no real faith in any of the various estimates accuracy. God knows how much it really is and he isn't talking.

                I would like to see someone ask one of our senior Government MPs whether they are embarrassed that their Auckland homes have risen by a million dollars or so during their term in office. I mean the ones who live in a decent area like Sandringham or suchlike rather than those who live in Mangere.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Recent Labour-led and National-led governments have all failed to effectively address NZ's growing housing crisis. Labour has a track record of building state houses, but regrettably appears unable or unwilling to go down that path again, at least on a useful scale.

                  I party vote Green, and will give this Government the benefit of the doubt while it continues to produce excellent pandemic health outcomes. There's simply too much uncertainty surrounding the judgement of the current batch of opposition National MPs – it's a matter of trust, and I can't read those eyebrows.

                  Senior MP breaks ranks with Collins over obesity

                  "I disagree with her position, this is a change for the National Party. Under the leadership of John Key and Bill English, they did take a science and evidence base to this issue.

                  "It is another area you can see this is not the same National Party it once was."

            • Pat 14.1.2.1.1.2

              Im not sure Orr will become any more overt in his public statements…unless its in his resignation speech

          • Nic the NZer 14.1.2.1.2

            Being unpopular with a small number special interests is hardly going to be an impediment to any popular economic policy in a democracy. The main impediment appears to be the publics understanding of public funding which institutions like the DMO create mythology around regularly. Never the less I think joe public has basically figured out that the RBNZ owns 37% of govt debt means the govt has been funding itself and the next question is becoming if you can do that why bother having financial middlemen in that process at all.

            • arkie 14.1.2.1.2.1

              Have Robertson or Orr ever expressed interest in heterodox economics or MMT?

              • Pat

                "Orr said it was up to government to decide if it wanted to go further and give the RBNZ the mandate to buy bonds for fiscal policy purposes, rather than monetary policy purposes – IE buy bonds to help pay for government spending initiatives rather than to keep inflation and employment in check."

                https://www.interest.co.nz/bonds/105145/adrian-orr-more-qe-would-be-simple-way-reserve-bank-boost-economy-going-further-and

              • Nic the NZer

                No, in fact they have mostly indicated they don't do anything according to MMT, ever period full stop.

                But of course once you understand MMT is just a way to understand how the monetary system works thats just makes the finance minister start to look ridiculous.

                A lot of people seem less interested in why but, MMT or no, most seem to have noticed that the RBNZ is funding the government via its QE policy. The finance ministers denials that its happening not with standing.

            • Pat 14.1.2.1.2.2

              In case you havnt noticed our 4 largest banks are foreign owned and get a quarter of their funding offshore…those are vested interests that arnt insignificant…..do you think NZ is ready to nationalise its banking system with all the implications that come with that?

              • Nic the NZer

                You seriously think they are going to leave over a bit of democratic fiscal policy? Come on.

                • Pat

                  Except its not fiscal policy is it….will they leave because of this action?no….is this the end of the political intrusion?…the first step is always the hardest.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    Oh sorry, I meant fiscal policy in an environment where the politicians are aware their spending decisions and the economic impacts of those are to be considered by the voting public.

  13. aj 15

    A 38 minute video discussing the UK response to Covid, very interesting to contrast with our situation.

    A year after the World Health Organisation declared Covid-19 a pandemic, with Britain enduring more than a 100,000 deaths since, a number of major questions remain unanswered. Why was the response of the UK among the worst in the world? How is it possible that the death toll of countries in Europe and North America is so much higher than for poorer countries in Asia such as Thailand and Vietnam? And when will things go ‘back to normal’?

    Discussing that, and more, is Richard Horton – editor of the prestigious medical journal The Lancet and author of ‘The Covid-19 catastrophe, what’s gone wrong and how to stop it happening again’.

    – Intro
    – Britain among the worst Covid-19 responses in the world
    – Why weren't we more prepared?
    – Did China deliberately lie about Covid-19?
    – The role of Covid-denialism
    – When do we go back to normal?
    – Will new mutations render vaccines redundant? Do we need zero Covid?
    – Test-and-trace is here to stay, nobody is saying this
    – A global health guarantee
    – We need a bigger role for science in politics
    – The next pandemic could be our extinction event

    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1

      Really informative interview – thanks for that.

      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        For informative reading about the politics of the UK and their failings, I suggest this book about where the pollies get trained, and their ideas and opinions that guide their lives thereafter are formed.

        Posh Boys: How English Public Schools Ruin Britain: Verkaik …

        http://www.amazon.com › Posh-Boys-English-Schools-Britain

        Posh Boys is a welcome catalyst for that debate.' ― Sunday Herald. 'In his fascinating, enraging polemic, Verkaik touches on one of the strangest aspects of the elite schools and their product's domination of public life for two and a half centuries: the acquiescence of everyone else.' ― Observer.

  14. Treetop 16

    Who keeps altering the status of cases which require a Covid-19 test, the frequency of the test and the isolation period for the close contact and the close plus contact and their family?

    • alwyn 17.1

      They can't do that. The treaty says that Sealord, or at least their owners, can do anything they please in New Zealand waters. There will, no doubt, be a claim to the Waitangi Tribunal to scrap the decision.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 17.1.1

        There will, no doubt, be a claim to the Waitangi Tribunal to scrap the decision.

        Doubtful.

        He [Sealord chief operating officer Doug Paulin] said while Sealord was disappointed with the outcome, they respected the Court’s decision.

        “The Court referred to Sealord as a ‘giant in the industry in which it operates’, and with that comes an expectation that we will be held to the highest possible standards.”

      • Stuart Munro 17.1.2

        The fishing companies will be treated leniently of course – the courts are aware the BPAs are essentially a farce – one of those instances of industry self-regulation carried out to forestall effective legislation. After all, they've run slave ships for forty years with government response amounting to nothing more than sustained bootlicking.

        Time to reform the sector in the public interest – the monopsony of major fisheries players is an ecological failure on top of its innumerable other failures.

        • artisanal fishing
        • locally crewed
        • sustainably managed
        • with a preference for light technology

        Would be the goals of a genuine government.

  15. Jester 18

    This doesn't sound good in Papatoetoe. We've had too many firearms incidents lately.

    Man shot by police in Papatoetoe after firing gun through neighbour's window – NZ Herald

    • alwyn 18.1

      "too many firearms incidents lately".

      But they all stopped about 18 months ago. There haven't been any since St J miraculously removed all the firearms from the people of this country.

      Whatever.

      • McFlock 18.1.1

        Now, now, the guy might have been a law-abiding responsible gun owner. Is David Seymour holding his hand in the ambulance?

    • Treetop 18.2

      The person misusing the firearm is harming the community and theirselves. An innocent person could be shot.

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