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Open Mike 25/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 25th, 2017 - 69 comments
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69 comments on “Open Mike 25/11/2017”

  1. The Chairman 1

    “Mr Twyford said the new regulations will still allow investment in new homes and he hopes the effect will repeat the Australian experience.

    “He said in Australia a ban on existing home purchases, effectively channelled $30 billion of foreign investment into new homes.

    “That’s a problem that we would love to have here,” he told RNZ.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/344083/twyford-not-worried-about-chinese-real-estate-promo

    So Labour’s housing Minister would love to have offshore investors adding upward pressure in our new housing sector, thus squeezing local buyers out?

    • tracey 1.1

      No. He would like to see that investment shift from gobbling up existing homes ( some of which sit empty or have 1 student offspring in it) into new homes to create a more energised new home build market.

      The Govt is also legislating against foreign ownership?

      • The Chairman 1.1.1

        But in doing so (creating a more energised new home build market) it will be adding upward pressure, thus squeezing local buyers out. With the displacement resulting in the ripple effect.

        Merely shifting demand and not ceasing it won’t prevent offshore investors gobbling up our land and homes. Albeit new ones.

        • Molly 1.1.1.1

          I agree TC. This tinkering still doesn’t address the problem of escalating prices, or accessibility of housing.

          • crashcart 1.1.1.1.1

            Especially with limited tradesman to build more homes. If all this did was increase the numebr of homes being built great. i can’t see that happening and the price to build a new home will go up.

            • The Chairman 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Allowing this upward pressure is a big mistake that will come back to haunt Labour.

              It will clash with Kiwibuild.

              I’d suggest they look at a form of tax as a disincentive to substantially slow this form of investment. It’s not the type of offshore investment we require.

              • Barfly

                A hefty tax on ghost houses would likely be effective in reducing

                Homelessness

                Rental costs

                House price inflation

                House banking

                Any threat to kiwibuild

  2. Ad 3

    Excellent post from Fran O’Sullivan critiquing the Prime Minister and Minister of Finance for not engaging hard with business:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11947706

    Failing to get business leadership to harness common purpose for this country has the capacity to cripple this administration as it nearly did for the first term of Clark.

  3. Grey Area 4

    The breathless, sycophantic hagiography of Moir and Jenna Lynch on Newshub yesterday is sickening. They come across as National Party PR flunkies not journalists. I am not surprised but it emphasises yet again how poorly we are served by the MSM.

    O’Sullivan’s piece on the other hand was worth reading.

    • Ed 4.1

      Jo Moir really does love National MPS like Collins and Bridges. Wonder if she benefits from their hard right economic philosophies?

    • Ed 4.2

      You do wonder whether it’s a case of bias, but rather ignorance, laziness, bias and incompetence.
      These people have been picked because they are cheap ad they get little journalistic training. They are obsessed with their own egos. They are in the entertainment business not news business.
      They stand for nothing.

    • Ed 4.3

      And more propaganda to be found in the Herald by Trevett.
      55% of the voters in this country did not vote for the National Party.
      About 70% of the adult population did not vote for the National Party.

      Yet over 75% or more of the opinion pieces advocate for the right wing.

      Why?
      Media ownership.

      We need a democratic media.

  4. Ffloyd 5

    I read the Jenna lynch gush piece. A shocker. I wonder who’s pocket she is in?

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      She’s had it in for Labour ever since Nash asked after her health one day.

      • James 5.1.1

        After her heath ? Trying to rewrite history there muttonbird.

        Shortly after, Labour MP Stuart Nash walked in trying to sell some bloody story about cops.
        He looked shocked, almost offended at my face.

        “Gosh, did you have a rough night?”

        • CLEANGREEN 5.1.1.1

          James;

          Showing your right wing skirt again?

          Stuart Nash has been the best MP for Napier since the 156-year-old electorate was red for all but 17 years since the first Labour MP was elected in 1922.

          The only bad Labour MP Napier ever had was Russell Fairbrother who he shocked us all when he closed our Historic iconic Napier hospital and that cost labour the 2008 election.

          Thank God we have re-secured Napier again as a labour strong hold.

          • James 5.1.1.1.1

            Showing you lack of reading ability’s agaim.

            Mutton said he asked about her health.

            He didn’t he was commenting on her appearance for not wearing makeup.

            I was pointing out mutton bird was telling lies. Nothing to do with anything else.

            • CLEANGREEN 5.1.1.1.1.1

              James you have a long history of bad mouthing any other party except National, and on those grounds i have this comment here as a bad mouthing of Stuart Nash “figuratively” speaking.

              We look forward to any statement from you that favours the current Government in future.

              We do need to give the Labour coalition Governement a fair go, and a chance to succeed as we will all benefit from this.

              To quote james;

              “Shortly after, Labour MP Stuart Nash walked in trying to sell some bloody story about cops.
              He looked shocked, almost offended at my face.”

              “Gosh, did you have a rough night?”

              • james

                You are an idiot – thats not quoting me – thats quoting the woman that Nash offended by commenting on her looks for not wearing makeup to work.

                Edit and Muttonbird is an enabler – as he lies and calls it asking about her health.

    • Ed 5.2

      Don’t want to add clicks so won’t ask for link.
      What was the gist of Lynch’s propaganda?

  5. Morrissey 6

    GROPERS
    No. 10: Sir Jimmy Savile

    “He would indulge in sexual touching while working on the set (Top of the Pops or Jim’ll Fix It) and, on at least one occasion, he was actually on camera.

    “Savile would seize the opportunity for sexual contact even in public places such as corridors, staircases and canteens.”

    ….the honours committee advised then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher against recommending Savile for a knighthood because of public warning signs about the presenter, even if the BBC failed to see them. ….

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jimmy-savile-raped-children-as-young-as-nine-while-working-at-bbc-leaked-report-finds-a6824436.html

    “GROPERS” is presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    More gropers. Collect the series!…
    
No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush; No. 2 Bill O’Reilly; No. 3 Al Franken; No. 4 Robin Brooke; No. 5 Lester Beck; No. 6 Arnold Schwarzenegger; No. 7 Joe Biden; No. 8 Rolf Harris; No. 9 Harold Bloom

  6. Andre 7

    Heh. While I really wish the Clintons would just go away and enjoy their millions away from the spotlight and we never hear from them again, I gotta admit this article makes some good points about the upsides of Hillary for 2020.

    https://www.salon.com/2017/11/24/heres-your-leftover-turkey-the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/

    • McFlock 7.1

      I very much doubt Hillary will run in 2020.

      Fuckwits made up so much about her health last election, I’m amazed she’s still alive. She’d be the oldest president taking office if she won (record currently held by Trump). Put those two together, every time she clears her throat the fuckwits will be diagnosing terminal lung cancer.

  7. Sanctuary 8

    Another Saturday, another confused story from John Roughan in the Herald. Seriously, does John “no will use the bus way” Roughan have a fucking clue?

    I THINK his bewildering article, which starts with a sweeping anachronistic generalisation, makes an unsubstantiated assertion, creates a straw man based on a flat out wrong assumption of the past before making another tiresome declaration of the superiority of the market model is actually an inchoate attempt to address the issue of where we direct our tertiarty funding. But who knows with Roughan, the guy is a 1980s dinosaur with but a fleeting connection to the dynamics of New Zealand in 2017.

    Seriously, why does the Herald cling to these old, out of touch op-ed writers? Surely they could find a young woman to write opinion pieces, or maybe an Asian bloke under 40? And surely they’d be more bracing and up to date in their views than have retreads who recycle the same predictable rubbish?

    Just for the record, NZ Universities were always free, or practically free, before the government abandoned it’s core role in tertiary education. when Victoria College was established in 1899, its founding Act stated that the highest fee charged to students by the college was not to exceed the lowest fee set at any other college in New Zealand. Up until 1911, the fee set by Victoria was one and a half guineas (32 shillings, just over one and a half pounds), which was then doubled in 1912. This was when the an unskilled labourer earned on average 140 pounds a year. Based on the minimum wage that would make 1912 university fees about $1500 in todays money. Is Roughan really trying to claim the university funding system that existed before 1990s produced academically inferior universities? Because all the evidence points to the complete opposite.

    Aging ideological halfwits like Roughan like to harrumph from their supposed rarified heights about the fake news and the like – but it is their obsession with ideology and their need to force every fact and every interpretation in that ideological lens, that laid the groudwork for todays fake news world.

    Fuck off and retire Roughan. You’re a handbrake on the countries future.

    • alwyn 8.1

      You must be an extremely wealthy person.
      Any one who can say, apparently with a straight face, that
      “NZ Universities were always free, or practically free”
      and follow it, a couple of lines later, that
      “that would make 1912 university fees about $1500 in todays money”
      is clearly a great deal better off than I am.
      Are you seriously proposing the $1500 is a mere bagatelle and really not worth anything at all? Are you so rich that you consider $1500 indistinguishable from “free”?

      • I believe it was after WWII that tertiary education did become free. The time of the NZ,s and the West’s greatest growth and development. And then neo-liberalism got implemented around the world and things have downhill for them since.

        Although, the inflation calculator says that today’s price for that one and a half pounds would be ~$250 and not $1500.

      • joe90 8.1.2

        Any one who can say, apparently with a straight face, that
        “NZ Universities were always free, or practically free”

        Do you not recall the bursary system?.

        There are, of course, various important conditions governing such matters as eligibility and tenure; for detailed information, reference should be made to the University Bursaries Regulations 1962. The following summary will, however, serve to illustrate the general purpose and nature of the bursaries.

        1 Fees Bursary: This is, in general, available to all students who hold the University Entrance qualification or the Endorsed School Certificate. The bursary is tenable for the minimum period of time in which the student, pursuing his course full time, could complete that course. It provides for the payment of full tuition fees.

        2 Fees and Allowances Bursary: This is available to students who have qualified for the Higher School Certificate. In addition, students who in their first year of tenure of a fees bursary have been credited with passes in three units of an arts or science degree or their equivalent may then become entitled to the fees and allowances bursary. The bursary provides for the payment of full tuition fees and a bursary allowance increasing from £40 in the first year to £100 in the fourth or any subsequent year. It is tenable for the minimum period required for the bachelor’s course.

        3 Master’s Bursary: Students who have completed a bachelor’s degree course in not more than one year in excess of the minimum period and who wish to take a master’s degree may be awarded a master’s bursary for this purpose. The bursary is awarded for one year, with provision for extension. The value is the same as for the fourth and subsequent years of the fees and allowances bursary.

        The tenure of all these bursaries is dependent on the continued satisfactory progress of the student bursar, and there is provision in the regulations referred to above for suspension, reinstatement, and termination of any bursary.

        https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WNJsj67B9asJ:https://teara.govt.nz/en/1966/education-special-aspects-scholarships-and-bursaries+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b

        • alwyn 8.1.2.1

          No, I hadn’t forgotten them.
          I was a recipient of that largesse. However Sanctuary described the Universities as having always been near free and then quoted numbers from 1912 which didn’t look anything like that.

          It was a great deal easier to do such things in the 50s and 60s. Vic had about 3,000 students when I was originally there and there were probably only about 15,000 in the whole country. A lot of the courses, law for example, were part time.

          • millsy 8.1.2.1.1

            Because you didnt need to go to uni to get a job back then. Most white collar jobs and vocational situations had cadetships and inhouse training.

            I would say that the destruction of entry level white collar jobs in this country is one of the greatest economic tragedies of the past 30 years.

      • millsy 8.1.3

        I have asked Vic Uni for a schedule of all fees and charges from 1977 under the OIA. We will see who is right.

        • alwyn 8.1.3.1

          This appears to be a reply to me.
          Can you tell me what the relevance of 1977 is and who you are talking about when you say “We will see who is right.”.

    • Ed 8.2

      The government needs to make sweeping reforms to the media so apologists for the 1% like Lynch, Roughan, Hosking, Moir, Garner, Soper, du Plessis Allen, etc have 1% of the airtime.

    • Ed 8.3

      Roughan only has a job because he says what the owner of NZME want the public of NZ to hear.
      He is a tool for the 1%.

      The owners of NZME

      ‘he JMAD New Zealand media ownership report 2016 observes that New Zealand media institutions are facing major changes in ownership and management, but it is not clear what combinations will eventually emerge.

      For the first time in six years, New Zealand media companies are exclusively owned by financial institutions. ’

      http://www.aut.ac.nz/study-at-aut/study-areas/communications/research/journalism,-media-and-democracy-research-centre/journalists-and-projects/new-zealand-media-ownership-report

    • RedLogix 8.4

      Leaving aside Roughan’s twitterings, it’s my personal observation that during the period in the 80’s NZ Universities went through the transition from ‘virtually free’ to ‘fee paying’ they began to become less attractive places.

      Specifically academic staff could no longer treat students purely on merit, but had to incorporate some awareness that their own salaries were now linked in some manner to their ‘clients’ success.

      That and the disaster that was ‘continuous assessment’ which greatly diminished the social and intellectual life of the place … has placed our Universities on a path of decreasing global value.

  8. Andre 9

    PEEOTUS and the Kremlin: the start of a beautiful friendship.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/19/trump-first-moscow-trip-215842

    • RedLogix 9.1

      Having actually lived and worked in Russia for a short period I rather wish the West would grow out of this pointless Russophobia. Ordinary Russians are a fine people pretty much just like the rest of us.

      As with China, with Russia there are different political and philosophical variants in play that we need to be intelligent and discriminating about engaging with. But ultimately the West is far better served by working towards rapprochement than a reflexive isolation.

      • Andre 9.1.1

        Ordinary Russians are fine people, as are ordinary Chinese, most ordinary Americans, ordinary Indians etc.

        But the elites that hold the levers of power are different, and they operate in different ways. Best not to be naive about how cunning and malicious they can be in service of their long term interests.

  9. Grey Area 10

    Looking at the two pieces by Lynch and Moir again it is the relentless one-sidedness of them that is so obvious.

    There is no attempt at a balanced assessment of these potential National Party leaders. No hint of the stench of corruption that hangs around Collins, or Bridge’s politicking with 10 (no) bridges for Northland, Coleman’s incompetence, any evidence of what Kaye has actually achieved and so on.

    Personally I don’t care who they choose as obviously I’m not impressed with any of them and out of that lot whomever they choose will make the government look better.

    Lynch:

    He (Bridges) had an aggressive start to this Parliamentary term, turning the House upside down and showing Labour who is boss on the opening day. The symbolism of the show of force he exerted by making the Government question its numbers while trying to do a procedural election of a Speaker is that he is ready to take them on.

    Yep, we get it. As Ed says, you think Simon is amazing.

    He’s had a succession of good jobs and none of his ministerial portfolios have caused him any grief.

    They’ve caused us some grief though. Building largely pointless motorways and not investing in ways to build a sustainable transport system that’s not so harmful to the environment and get more huge trucks off our over-stressed roading system has been a successful approach.

    He had a regular head-to-head slot with Jacinda Ardern on morning television in his early days, so he’s proven he can match her.

    At what? Appearing on morning TV?

    And ever since then, like the Crown prosecutor he is by trade, he is building a compelling case.

    Was he any good?

    Just 12 months later he’s found himself on the Opposition benches and has launched a series of blistering attacks on the new Government, whether in the House, through brutally worded press releases or by baiting Ministers on social media.

    Beneath the Brylcreem exterior lurks a nasty piece of work (much like Key).

    Judith Collins – Remains a total threat, performing incredibly in Opposition.

    Really? Oh, I get it. Judith is amazing too.

    Amy Adams – The former Justice Minister has already landed some solid strikes on the new Government and has been given portfolios that will continue to hit where it hurts – particularly Workplace Relations. Her move on Paid Parental Leave was a masterstroke.

    Masterstroke? Or just empty posturing and duplicitious points-scoring?

    Paula Bennett – The job seemed hers a while ago, but at the moment, the desire doesn’t seem to be there. She seems happy taking a back seat after losing the Deputy Prime Minister spot.

    Wonder why?

    Nikki Kaye – Represents the future and is National’s face of Auckland. She’s also beaten Jacinda Ardern twice in Auckland Central.

    One is now the PM the other an opposition MP who doesn’t seem to have achieved much.

    Steven Joyce – He rose rapidly through the ranks and has done pretty much everything but.

    Done pretty much everything just not very well.

    Moir:

    The party says it wants English in the leadership and many are still sore about how much of the vote they won and it not being enough to keep them in Government.

    So they are delusional and still don’t understand MMP then. Great credentials for party that wants to govern again.

    Some have taken to Opposition like a duck to water with the likes of Nikki Kaye and Judith Collins barking at everything passing by them.

    Like dogs chasing cars, that’s smart.

    Kaye and Bridges have been tag teaming as they create chaos for Education Minister and Leader of the House Chris Hipkins and tertiary spokesman Paul Goldsmith, almost invisible in Government, seems to be basking in his newfound Opposition freedom.

    Create chaos? Really? And Goldsmith was useless as a minister but good in opposition? Yep that’s the right way round.

    Both Collins and Bridges are class acts in Opposition – they’re fast on their feet and they’ve both got a bit of pitbull in them.

    Class acts? Seriously, Oriveda Collins? Pitbull? Collins maybe but Bridges seems more like a yappy little terrier, one of those brainless dogs that runs along a residential front fenceline yapping at you as you walk past.

    Kaye is ambitious and can dine out on the fact she beat the hugely popular Ardern in the Auckland Central seat twice.

    So what? How long will this keep getting trotted out?

    Coleman wouldn’t have any qualms about giving it another crack but he’s going to have to school up fast on how Opposition works.

    Pity he didn’t school up on being a minister. This is the guy that ran down our health system and was pretty much a disaster as health minister.

    Then there’s Amy Adams. She’s smart – don’t forget she got given just about every portfolio there was in the last government, given how competent she is.

    Maybe because the others were so useless but at least she didn’t drop the ball like so many of them.

    She’s not an obvious leader …

    Bit like English then.

    • Ed 10.1

      Did Lynch ask Collins orBridges to ghost write the article for her?
      Trevett’s article is ghastly too. These people cannot be called journalists.

      We do not have a democratic media. We have one owned by financial institutions who have a message they want the NZ public to hear. And they own some willing narcissistic puppets ( Lynch, Moir, Hosking, Garner, Roughan, du Plessis-Allan, Soper, Street, Tame) happy to peddle their lies.

      Reform the media.

      • Grey Area 10.1.1

        I agree these people are undermining democracy Ed. I get frustratef when if you criticise someone like Hosking for some rant on TV you are told that he’s entitled to his opinion and if you don’t like it then don’t watch/listen.

        That would be valid if we had a healthy media presenting balanced points of view encouraging vigorous debate. But we don’t. We have a biased media following what seems to be an orchestrated plan to present information and opinion from a very narrow perspective with very specific messages.

        And when the media is owned by interests who benefit from spreading those messages then I dont know how we reform it.

        Having a viable, independent public broadcasting service would be a start.

        .

      • North 10.1.2

        We can’t ‘reform’ the media. Constitutionalism as we know it doesn’t allow that. What we do have are more and more sources of information about the things which touch us, and the opportunity to publicly lampoon. Those aghast at “social media” are lamenting their loss of control that’s all…….there’s no morality to it. It’s money/vainglory. Poor stressed darlings.

    • JO 10.2

      +++
      A great line-by-line audit! What if TS started a regular page like this… like BLiP’s list, it could make an archive of what already looks and quacks like an orchestrated litany.

  10. Peter ChCh 11

    You mean the way they refer to whites as ‘European’? But of course, clearly in your eyes, only whites are racist.

    Strangely enough, we refer to them as ‘Asian’ because they inhabit the continent of Asia.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [there was nothing in CV’s comment to suggest that he believes only whites are racist. Your supposition/accusation is exactly the kind of inflammatory comment that leads to reactionary threads. If you disagree with the points someone has made, then address those points. Don’t make shit up about what they are saying. – weka]

    • tracey 11.1

      You happy being called an Australasian? In fact, have you ever been called one once, twice, more?? Do tell.

      Can you explain the circumstances where being white has resulted in your being discriminated or oppressed?

  11. RedLogix 12

    Way in the distant past I had a go at Fran O’Sullivan in very strong terms. Well time passes and we all change:

    As Luxon said, “We will all get the country — the environment, the society and the economy — we all deserve.

    “Building a sustainable and better New Zealand is a cause well worth putting all our collective efforts and energy behind as business leaders working together with government and community leaders.

    “Fundamentally, business needs a strong society and society needs strong business. The two are intrinsically linked and mutually reinforcing.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11947706

    While I’m sure Luxon and I might quibble the shadings and weightings; this is a starting point the left could surely work with.

  12. Zorb6 13

    Biggest,beat up non story for years.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  13. eco maori 14

    My truck purring when I found the radiator cap loose this had caused the bearing in the water pump to wear out and the temperature to spike I put black pepper in radiator to stop the bearing leaking and when I changed the water pump I found a hose clip on the bottom of the radiator lose it was finger tight
    What the______. Now you people that are doing this shit why don’t you act like real Men and stop getting contracted lies whom are exactly like Frank Gallagher from the TV show Shamles who will say anything for there next drink and hit of pee real Men would arrested me and take me to court and try and confirm Your contracted lies To the hole WORLD. O THAT’S right I’m not human in your eyes Im just a Criminal Maori Iv got a good story that will piss the gisborne man off tomorrow. Kia kaha

  14. One Two 15

    https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/true-syrian-picture-may-not-be-painted-media

    From October 2012

    What level of deceit is exerted throughout NZ media, and indeed [name the country] using a facade of NGO’s, and other foreign funded entities…

    Observing NZ media across the spectrum, it looks as though interference is close to 100%

    • Ed 15.1

      The NZ media is totally owned by financial institutions.
      This means that people relying on the NZ corporate media have no idea of what is going on in the world of economics.

      They have no idea of the elite’s plan for the next financial crisis. Media and neo-liberal Governments are conspiring against their citizens in this.

      The comeback of the last eight years is artificial. A crisis of even greater proportions is imminent.

      Read James Rickards, Steve Keen and other independent economists.

      Ignore the Herald and other media puppets of the finance industry.

      Become informed.

      • halfcrown 15.1.1

        +1

        Also, I don’t read any of that shit and refuse to watch TV, NZ TV that is, and do read Steve Keen.

  15. One Anonymous Bloke 16

    Is this China’s Civic Creche moment?

    Or is it just Fairfax media having another one?

  16. eco maori 17

    Many thanks to Ngai Tahu IWI for choseing the right person for the job to lead there IWI into there bright and prosperous future who is a Maori Lady Lisa Tumahai Ka pai. My IWI have close historical ties to them and Maori always respect OUR Lady’s this changed with colonialism. Kia Kaha

  17. joe90 18

    Yet an awful lot of people prefer to ignore what they know.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/934190255753674752

  18. mikes 19

    I agree that there is only one race, the human race. But you say racism isn’t about race, a statement which I would imagine many people would dismiss as cloud cuckoo land stuff. (and who could blame them)

    If as you stated you agree that having a shared understanding of what racism is is important and a good starting point, then perhaps you need to stop trying to change the definition that most people understand and know in order to have a definition that better suits your own opinions on racism, which are definitely not in line with the majority of people. (In my opinion)

    So are you implying when you say it’s about culture and ethnicity, that a person can be a racist about a culture (amongst other things) rather than a race ??

    So as an example. If I was to say that I believe female genital mutilation is a barbaric practice and I think those cultures within which such a thing is practiced should be made to abolish it. Certainly it should be made clear that it is forbidden in our country regardless of how ‘multi-cultural’ we are. Any culture which permits such a thing as far as I’m concerned is backward, uncivilized and needs to evolve.

    Is that a racist statement?? (No)

    By the way for those here that think Canada is a beacon of progressive success. They have their ‘multi-culturalism’ enshrined in law and according to Mr Trudeau, to criticize a culture for practicing female genital mutilation would be offensive to that culture and criminal because it is part of someone’s culture, therefore is beyond reproach and somehow acceptable. This s how warped ‘progressive’ (more like regressive) thinking is becoming. Any normal, caring, human being with any common sense would say that there are things about other cultures which are simply not acceptable in our civilized, secular, modern , ‘progressive’ society and would put their own culture ahead of that which practices such things, especially when it is that other culture coming to our country.

    Dislike of, criticism of, or even complete disregard of any particular culture due to unacceptable (to any normal moral person) things, that are acceptable within that culture, are perfectly legitimate positions to take should a person choose to do so and they in no way mean that person is a racist. Not standing up for what is right for fear of offending someone or hurting their feelings about their cultural barbarity’s is a cowardly position to take.

    “..it can also be unconscious…” I’ve heard this nonsense floating around, what an unbelievable claim to make. If this were true then how could anyone ever even know they were a racist, let alone stop being racist?? Maybe the ‘unconscious’ thought police could manage such a thing. Racism is something that requires conscious thought, decision making and/or action. If racism could be unconscious then for all we know, you, me and every person on the planet could be racist, it could be part of our DNA and none of us would even know it about ourselves.

    (yes I know that there are tests which suggest such a phenomenon, but for every test there are plenty of experts who rubbish the methodologies and claims)

    Regardless of what you think should or shouldn’t happen Weka, you can’t just redefine words to suit your worldview. The way some people throw around words like racist at pretty much anyone who brings up anything about the Chinese or Asians or any ‘non-white’ foreigners is a disgrace in my opinion. It simply cheapens the word, insults those victims of real racism and diminishes the seriousness of real racism. Some of the things you cry racism at are nothing of the sort.

    I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been accused of making a racist statement for things such as simply stating an observable fact. ‘Racist’, ‘Nazi’, ‘Facist’, etc are all terms increasingly used to try and shut down discussions and debates when unable to make rational counter arguments.

    It seems many people still, no matter how much information they are given, haven’t figured out why Trump won.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 19.1

      “But you say racism isn’t about race, a statement which I would imagine many people would dismiss as cloud cuckoo land stuff. (and who could blame them)”

      You’re on a progressive political blog. There’s an expectation here that people get themselves up to speed on political concepts. That race doesn’t exist but racism does is neither new nor unknown. It’s a common enough idea amongst the left irrespective of whether one agrees with it or not. As I’ve said elsewhere, semantics don’t serve us very well when dealing with racism in the real world. Better to work with concept and ideas that are being used by people in their lives.

      I’m not trying to change the definition of racism, I’m sharing opinion based on the various definitions of racism that exist independent of me. I’m not making this stuff up. If you are unfamiliar with it I suggest googling racism 101.

      The rest of your comment is pretty far off topic especially given you are basically denying the existence of systemic racism, which is in part what the post was about. So I’m moving this one to Open Mike.

      • Zorb6 19.1.1

        What on earth does this mean?’There’s an expectation here that people get themselves up to speed on political concepts.’-concept
        ˈkɒnsɛpt/Submit
        noun
        plural noun: concepts
        an abstract idea.
        “structuralism is a difficult concept”
        synonyms: idea, notion, conception, abstraction, conceptualization; More
        a plan or intention.

  19. greywarshark 20

    USA Trump etc – trying to make sense about it.
    Thomas Frank – Listen Liberal
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZbzsSzu7rQ 9m44s
    and

    What to Make of the Age of Trump by Thomas Frank
    1.32.22

    • Grey Area 20.1

      As one grey to another, thanks for this. Very informative and helped join some dots for me. There were some very relevant echoes to our situation and it reinforced that what we’re up against is a global issue.

      • greywarshark 20.1.1

        Thanks Grey. I get good background and reliable info here, enough to keep me informed on what is actually happening, and reciprocate. I feel we all have to be grown up birds looking for our own fodder and fly from the comforting RW nest instead of sitting there with our beaks open waiting for propaganda birds to drop in morsels they regurgitate for the dependent flock.

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