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Open mike 25/04/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 25th, 2015 - 111 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags: ,

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

111 comments on “Open mike 25/04/2015”

  1. Morrissey 1

    Why you should NOT wear a red poppy

    In late 1918, after the war had ended, New Zealand and Australian soldiers rounded up more than one hundred boys and men in the Palestinian village of Surafend, then methodically clubbed them to death. After that, the ANZAC soldiers burned the village to the ground/

    General Allenby called these ANZAC troops “cowards and murderers”.

    
Far from apologizing for the massacre, the RSA ran poems in its magazine praising it.

    http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/index.blog?topic_id=1115959

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/massacre-that-stained-the-light-horse-20090723-dv3o.html

    • Saarbo 1.1

      Thanks Morrisey, from memory there is also an example of Kiwi troops war crime on display in the Auckland War Memorial museum.

      War is an ugly and complex thing and I imagine that there are plenty of examples of this, fuelled by seeing one of your mates killed.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.2

      This is the Anzac tradition followed by FJK and Abbott. The Australian Light Horse machine gunning unarmed demonstrators in Egypt also plays a role.

  2. big bruv 2

    Well done to those who attended Dawn parade. Those of you who did attend showed more respect than former PM Helen Clark who refused to attend dawn parade. It seemed that she could not be bothered getting out of bed early on that one day of the year. [r0b: Moved this comment from the Anzac day post to Open Mike. Also banned BB for a year on the charge of inappropriate politicisation and being a POS.]

    • mickysavage 2.1

      Big bruv you are going to have to let it go. Helen has not been PM for 7 years now. We have an ex merchant banker hair fetishist in control now.

      Besides it appears that what you say is not true.

      It appears she attended a dawn ceremony in 2005 (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0505/S00060.htm), and 2006 (https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=0d_QAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22helen+clark%22+attends+anzac+dawn+parade&source=bl&ots=Ih2WMKgweW&sig=JuUefIPLjqgGmraJaI6edCG51Zk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8Ko6Ve6VEqi1mwXFnIHQAQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22helen%20clark%22%20attends%20anzac%20dawn%20parade&f=false). In fact Google suggests that she attended a huge number of ceremonies.

      In 20 years time BB are you still going to have your obsession with Helen?

      • lprent 2.1.1

        Helen attended several ANZAC services on each ANZAC day while she was in parliament. I usually saw her at the Mt Albert one, starting in 1990 when I shifted back to that one. She routinely did several around Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, Avondale, Pt Chev and other local ones around her home.

        She attended the War Memorial dawn service frequently… At least as frequently as I did, and I was a soldier.

        Many of her family were soldiers in various of our wars.

        FFS This can be found with a simple google. Why didn’t you do one? Rather than just lying.

        You sound like another lazy armchair general. Too damn lazy to get off your arse to volunteer for anything. A critic of those who do. Playing the patriotic card to send other parents kids to fight for you. Basically a parasite on society and as r0b said, generally a piece of shit

    • idlegus 2.2

      BFD, i get up before dawn every fucking morning to go to work you moron. what pisses me off is the sheep who go to the dawn parades then go to the warehouse or malls or cafes feeling superior to us who refuse to be sucked in to celebrating & supporting military conflict, so fuck you you sanctimonious dick.

      • Lanthanide 2.2.1

        +1

        Never gone to a dawn service, probably never will.

        • last one I went to was in Cambridge a few years back .When the local Nat MP/lance -Adams Schider used tyhe whole time telling us how we needed Nuclear Powered Ships.Never been since.Any way I do not have to attend such meetings to realise the horror of war.

    • weka 2.3

      what’s a POS?

    • Heather Grimwood 2.4

      My recollection is that Helen went to Gallipoli and certainly spoke out about her uncle who died there if my memory serves me right.

    • Anne 2.5

      What does POS stand for? Primeval Old Shit by any chance?

    • Olwyn 2.6

      What rot! It was Helen Clark who solemnly unveiled the tomb of the unknown warrior in Wellington.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.6.1

        Of course it was rot. RWNJs have to lie and put others down so as to put themselves up on a pedestal of their own delusion, to tell themselves how much better they are than everyone else.

        • Visubversaviper 2.6.1.1

          Can we please get some better trolls around here? The ones we have are getting far too predictable and boring.

    • Kriss X 2.7

      This sort of censorship would make Kim Jong-un blush. It reflects very poorly on the site and your ideology. Though it is to be expected from a Clark apologist.

      When people see this it drives them into JK’s arms, as the lessor of two evils.

      I want a decent choice in the next election and if the left continues the way it is going, I will be denied that choice.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.7.1

        Oh, look at that. Another RWNJ telling lies.

      • Sabine 2.7.2

        but but, you could always vote for dear leader as the lesser of two evils, or the only evil left tugging 🙂

      • RedLogix 2.7.3

        BB claimed Helen Clark never attended Dawn Services. This is a repeat of a common lie – a lie that can be readily shown for the smear it is with a few seconds googling.

        BB is not expressing an honest opinion. He knows he is lying, and continues to do it over many years. This is not behaviour we are obliged to tolerate.

        There is a difference between ideas and opinions – and behaviour. This site has long tolerated the expression of a very wide range of opinions, but does not allow repeated bad behaviour to disrupt the debate.

        • Kriss X 2.7.3.1

          Then expose their lies. Surely that is a better approach. It also makes things much more interesting.

          If JK told a lie you could expose, would you really want to hide the lie and stop him telling more lies ? With thinking like that, you must have been a Labour strategist in the past few elections.

          The “behavior” argument is at best subjective and at worst unconvincing.

          • RedLogix 2.7.3.1.1

            bb is well known here. For years he posted here in a similar vein. He’s said that lie many times before and been pointed to the correct information before. An honest person would accept the correct information and not repeat the mistake. There would be no problem this at all.

            But knowingly repeating a lie is a different thing to expressing an honestly held opinion. Then it becomes bad behaviour.

            I agree that this can be a subjective thing. I used to moderate here for years (I don’t have the time nor inclination to do it any more) and I know it is not easy deciding where the boundaries are. But there is no doubt that boundary exists, and the site owners are entitled to make up their minds as to where it lies.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.7.3.1.2

            The comment directly beneath BB’s refutes his lies.

            What would be “interesting” about allowing disruptive tr*lls to ruin the discourse? There are plenty of live issues to pick over without resuscitating long dead zombies.

    • Chooky 2.8

      big bruv…my uncle never attended the RSA or ANZAC Day …let alone Dawn Parades… so disgusted was he with the futility and tragic waste of war….if it was good enough for him not to attend , it is good enough for any of the rest of us to remember in our own way….and hopefully we will simply remember their sacrifice … the tragedy that is war ….and resolve to strive for peace

      my uncle, the navigator in the tail of a Lancaster, was shot down over Germany ( only he and one other survived)…ended up on a German forest….walked for a week at night trying to get into France and then back to the UK ….ended up in a POW camp and then towards the end of the war did the Long March in winter( he said they would not have survived without the Red Cross and their parcels)

      …i remember him and those returned servicemen ( many of them scarred) of my childhood who did not want to talk about war but who wanted to live!…..and who loved life!…and believed fervently in PEACE

      (incidentally he never said a bad word about the Germans because he was reasonably well treated and he recognised that we are all capable of war atrocities)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_March_%281945%29

  3. Morrissey 3

    ….fuelled by seeing one of your mates killed.

    No doubt there were incidents similar to this in French and Belgian villages; petty thievery is universal. Yet it is unthinkable that New Zealand and Australian soldiers would have contemplated the mass murder of innocent civilians in a French or Belgian village. The Arabs in Palestine, on the other hand, were regarded with contempt by many of the soldiers; they were untermenschen on a level with the natives of Australia and New Zealand.

    The New Zealand establishment has continued to refuse to apologize for this massacre—doggerel poems in the RSA magazine treated the murderers as heroes. It renders hollow this morning’s words by the Governor General, praising the “courage, compassion and mateship in adversity” and “moments of astonishing humanity”, and the Prime Minister’s words about those who “fought so gallantly for what we believe in.”

  4. adam 4

    More media on John Key – not sure if funny or more disturbing.

  5. gsays 5

    i must get this off my chest.

    what is it with all the folk having to go to cafes, burger chains etc on this solemn morning.

    i have long ranted about businesses that choose to open on anzac day and vowed not to darken their doors during the rest of the year.

    it occurs to me the businesses are just doing as businesses do. meeting a demand.

    couldnt we skip the trim flat white and bacon and eggs (not too hard please), and instead gather together at the local rsa, or at someones home and break bread together?

    come on folks, just for today.

    • Molly 5.1

      We stopped at a cafe this morning – as we always do, with my father-in-law and another resident from the retirement home, and enjoyed the morning coffee with them. It is the one regular visit out for one of them, and I’m glad that we did it.

      I am one of those who commemorate the wastefulness of war and conflict with sadness and contemplation, and to be surrounded by others who seem to be celebrating is quite disconcerting.

      I am finding the emphasis of the Gallipoli celebrations this year to be particularly disheartening, in light of the deployment of troops to Iraq. I don’t want to participate in this appropriation of loss by those who have their own agenda, or who “enjoy” this day. Our local MP used one ANZAC service to speak about his politics for over 20 minutes – a gross display of disrespect.

      I don’t need a particular day to join with others in regretting our continued involvement in other people’s conflicts – without a decent strategy or exit plan. This is happening for me every day, the waste of human potential is always depressing.

      • rawshark-yeshe 5.1.1

        as it is, molly, exactly as it is.

      • gsays 5.1.2

        hi molly, my experience of todays dawn service was far from celebratory.
        two speakers, local high school boy, and returned soldier.
        both eloquent, the veteran cited casualty numbers and gave context with the population of our town in 1915.

        there was plenty of contemplation, solemnity, sacrifice (it was cold), coming together, reflection.

        the experience with your mp electioneering, says more about that member than anzac service.
        our mayor gave the g.g. address and that was the politics over with.

        i do share your disheartedness re troops deployed.

        i simply feel, surely some things are sacred.
        maybe we could sacrifice by going without a visit to the cafe?
        disclaimer- i work in hospitality.

        i am curious, what was the atmosphere in the cafe this morning?

        • Molly 5.1.2.1

          Hi gsays,

          Very quiet in the cafe this morning. The realist in me thinks this is due to the carpark being empty because of the retail stores not being open, rather than attendance at ANZAC day or a recognition of sacrifice.

          …”surely some things are sacred”…”
          Strangely enough, I agree with you there. Except my heart and my mind recognise this sacredness every day, every time it is considered. To my oftentimes awkward realisation – I have never been someone who is entirely comfortable with requiring others to share my sentiments at “appropriate” times, so I find it difficult to do myself. If I observed this day in the way that you do, I would be assuming a persona specifically to say – to paraphrase Keri Hulme – “I wear my heart on my sleeve, mind you look at my sleeve”. The sincerity of the action would not be present. I consider this to be disrespectful in itself.

          My thoughts on this topic are fairly constant. And if engaged on the thought of war and engagement, I will express my thoughts with anyone on any day of the year, in order to have a better understanding. This is how I personally recognise the “sacred” that you observe on this day. My approach can be contentious, and requires a lot of internal fortitude, particularly coming up to ANZAC day – but for me it is the only way I can see for myself to come to grips with past and present deployments of our troops, and the consequences for those that live in the countries where they are deployed. I am past the point where I need others to agree with me by the end of the discussion, so I am more adept at keeping discussions flowing, but the ego in me, does try to make them understand my point of view.

          Perhaps after a few years, this too will pass.

          • gsays 5.1.2.1.1

            hi molly,
            thanks for expanding on yr thoughts. a lot of it resonates with me.
            especially “I am past the point where I need others to agree with me by the end of the discussion, so I am more adept at keeping discussions flowing, but the ego in me, does try to make them understand my point of view.”

      • rawshark-yeshe 5.1.3

        Never again.

        Deeply moving ….

        http://tewharewhero.blogspot.co.nz/

    • Sabine 5.2

      for some there is just little meaning in this day, as they might not be New Zealanders by birth i.e. Tourists and the likes.
      for some, they might not need a particular day to remember the death, especially in a world where on every other day we have no issue not only in forgetting the death, but often in blaming the death for their own demise…Gaza comes to mind, or Africa, or other parts of the world, where the dead are not ours.
      for another lot, they might plant a tree instead, or go out and clean a river from pollution.

      You could lobby the government to declare Anzac Day a day where no one but First Responders, Nurses and other medical staff at hospitals, and Police are allowed to work.

      We are closed on Monday, but we are open today. First customer of the day a US American on a visit in NZ…all others were Kiwis coming back from the dawn service buying breakfast items to be shared at home with family.
      My staff is off, but my Hubby and I are working.
      We are one of those famous small Mum and Pop business, and keeping a day off is not really an option in these times general austerity.

      • gsays 5.2.1

        hi sabine,
        i accept that anzac day aint for all.
        it is an important part of our heritage, identity and culture.

        i, too, work for a mom and pop business.
        i fortunately have the ability to say i am not available today.
        the rest of the staff arent.

    • Tigger 5.3

      So observance that doesn’t involve turning up to a sanctioned memorial isn’t ‘observance’? Righteous bullshit.

      Never been to a dawn anything. Never will. You remember the dead in your way, I mine. But don’t tell me my grief isn’t the same as yours because you demanded businesses close.

      • gsays 5.3.1

        hi tigger
        So observance that doesn’t involve turning up to a sanctioned memorial isn’t ‘observance’? Righteous bullshit.

        i have no comment on yr observance.
        nor do i wish to comment on yr grief.

        i simply fail to see the need to excercise my consumer rights on this day is all.

        • Funny how you’ve gone from complaining about what other people choose to do with their time to pretending it’s just about your ~personal preference~.

          • gsays 5.3.1.1.1

            Hi stephanie, molly, tigger,
            The motive for my posting was twofold: testing the waters re anzac days
            sacredness, and garner sympathy for some of the lesser paid, sometimes exploited work force.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1

      +1

      A must read.

      Considering the ever increasing corruption in our government and businesses how much do we trust each other today?

      EDIT: This applies

  6. les 7

    Deputy P.M tries comedy–‘The Government has effectively left nothing “undone” to tackle sky-rocketing house prices in Auckland, Finance Minister Bill English says’

    • dv 7.1

      ‘The Government has effectively left nothing “done” to tackle sky-rocketing house prices in Auckland, Finance Minister Bill English says’

      There fixed it for you.

  7. Bill 8

    In less than surprising, but utterly sickening news from the UK….

    The former Conservative deputy prime minister (Michael Heseltine) is being lined up by the shadow business secretary, Chuka Umunna, to advise Labour in government.”

    & (cause that’s not all folks!)

    Labour also hopes to sign up the business secretary, Vince Cable, (Lib Dem)and his predecessor Lord Mandelson (Blairite).

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/24/labour-to-call-on-michael-heseltine-if-it-wins-election

    • millsy 8.1

      Tory lite…

    • swordfish 8.2

      Extraordinary, isn’t it. If there’s one thing UK Labour have conspicuously failed to do since the last Election, it’s win over 2010 Tory voters. They’ve won over a huge chunk of the 2010 Lib Dem vote and made inroads into the Non-vote but next to no Tories (most polls suggest about 3 or 4% of 2010 Conservatives have swung to Labour, representing at most 1.4% of all voters. The Tories have attracted roughly the same proportion – comprising about 1.0% of all voters – from Labour). Nothing suggests this is suddenly going to change over the next few weeks.

      The reality is that if Labour manage to cobble together a Government after this Election (as seems more than likely) then – compared to the Blair regime – it will be far less dependent on keeping newly-won-over former Tory voters happy. It will be a Government firmly grounded in a social democratic support-base – voters who have stayed with Labour through thick and thin, voters who swung to Labour from the Lib Dems the moment the latter went into coalition with the Tories, decidedly Left-leaning SNP supporters, along with Greens, the communitarian-socialist Plaid Cymru, Ulster’s SDLP, not to mention the member for Bradford West (even if in some cases, we’re talking about informal/tacit/policy-by-policy support).

      Unfortunately, the Blairites still hold some sway in the Party (even if their voice isn’t quite as dominant as it once was).

      • Bill 8.2.1

        🙂 I take it you haven’t heard Sturgeon openly saying the SNP will court Labour’s left wing mps to kill austerity/Blairite/Tory lite policies?

        I’m looking forward to the unofficial ‘grand alliance’ of Tory/Labour that’s going to come into being in order to push through unpopular policies. Well, the reaction to it from the voting public. 😉

        • adam 8.2.1.1

          I’m hoping at that point, people will realise that the labour party is the boot at the neck of working people.

          It is good to see many Kiwis understand it here. Labour keeps worshipping at the altar of liberalism, and wonders why people don’t want a bar of them. Poll after poll and little or no movement for labour. When will they wake up and notice the wind change?

  8. weka 9

    Some feel good from Action Station on Campbell Live http://www.actionstation.org.nz/video_campbell

    Plus their latest email with overview of the actions being taken. I’m starting to be quite impressed with this group (although I’m not sure I agree with using the “je suis…” line in situations like this)

    More than 90,000 people like you signed petitions to save Campbell Live.

    More than 3000 of you wrote emails to MediaWorks or sent messages to Campbell Live sponsor Mazda.

    Campbell Live was TV3’s top rated show last night.

    Hundreds of people showed up at rallies across the country today.

    John Campbell and his team came out to meet and thank our campaigners today, saying: “Thank you so much to everyone involved, from petition organisers and signers, to video makers. Thank you all.”

    All in all, as Bill Ralston said yesterday, this has been an amazing display of people power and it seems MediaWorks would prefer it if we went away quietly. When Laura showed up at the MediaWorks office today to deliver those 90,000 signatures, MediaWorks CEO Mark Weldon and Head of News Mark Jennings refused to meet her.

    As you know, this petition was originally to be delivered via a crowdfunded television commercial:

    http://www.actionstation.org.nz/video_campbell

    More than 1100 of you chipped in to make this video explaining why Campbell Live matters to so many New Zealanders, but when Marianne tried to secure an advertising spot on TV3, they flat-out refused.

    In other words, not only will TV3 bosses not meet with someone representing 90,000 fans of their top rated show, they also refuse to accept paid advertising from fans of the show. What they have done, however, is delay the announcement of the outcome of their review of Campbell Live for a few weeks, no doubt in the hope that we’ll all get bored, stop watching and go away. But we don’t give up that easily.

    Our job for the next two weeks is to keep Campbell Live in the forefront of people’s minds. This beautiful video, made by people like you, is the perfect way to do it. So we are going to put this video all over the internet!

    Will you chip in $10 to put our member-funded video all over the internet? Or if you can’t chip in right now, you can still help by watching and sharing the video with your friends and networks.

    MediaWorks may refuse to meet us and refuse to air our ad, but they cannot ignore 90,000 of us, not when our video is all over the internet!

    At your service,

    Marianne and Laura

  9. Barbara 10

    I wish to pay a tribute to my late uncle and the many others who served overseas today, He volunteered during WW2 and went off with the 1st Echelon to the Middle East and served for 4 years. His given peacetime occupation was a printer so he was placed with the Sappers. He defused bombs and set charges on important installations like bridges etc all of this time and escaped death twice from strafing while on land convoys in the desert. He was a cynic through and through and was knicknamed “why” for obvious reasons. He was a dynamic and delightful man but had no time for the military. On his return he and the other returned servicemen had to apply for their service medals (if they chose to) and he naturally told them to put them where the sun doesn’t shine. His thoughts were if they hadn’t the courtesy to take the trouble to send the medals personally they weren’t worth having. He never attended ANZAC Day services but always remembered his mates he served with with much affection and pride. He was above all a man with bravery in his heart and honour deep into his bones.

    I, like him do not attend the ceremonies – there is a history world wide of veterans not being looked after like they should be and the grandstanding at these commemorations doesn’t do it for me one little bit. I salute my Uncle today and will have a drink or two and chat with him off and on throughout the day – he is one of the thousands of treasures we have in this country – Lest We Forget”.

  10. keyman 11

    i cant be leave how nasty the people on this site are calling the prime minister a pervert or worse where is your respect for the high office and your betters John key is leader of this nation and you should hold your noses and bow before him. just make sure your wearing protection hat or swimming cap

    • Ha! Full burqa to be really safe?

    • Hami Shearlie 11.2

      John Key may be “better” than someone but for the life of me I just can’t imagine who!!

      • Stuart Munro 11.2.1

        Gerry Brownlee – makes Key look like a cross between Gandhi and Einstein…

        • Rodel 11.2.1.1

          C’mon Stuart. You cannot mention Brownlie in the same sentence as Einstein, and I don’t think he measures up ( sorry- down) to Gandhi’s somatic s.

    • This comment is perfectly placed downthread from big bruv’s attempt to smear Helen Clark’s memory. The right do love to trot out the “respect your betters” line … as long as it’s the betters they personally agree with.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.4

      I think keyman may be being sarcastic there but it’s hard to tell.

    • Murray Rawshark 11.5

      The Key is my harrasser; I shall not be silent.
      He maketh me to let down my golden locks: he fondles my hair beside the till.
      He violateth my locks: he grabbeth me on the way to serve for his name’s sake.
      Yea, though I walk between the tables of the Tories of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art not near me; thy rod and thy staff they will not touch me.
      I preparest a table before you in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with pudgy fingers; my bile runneth over.
      Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and my story will live in the blog of the Bomber for ever.

    • Murray Rawshark 11.6

      Very good. Some of us got it.

  11. millsy 12

    I feel really uneasy at the whole glorfication of the whole ANZAC thing. I dont blame the vets or even the RSA though. Its the politicians and media who are milking the whole thing.

    I think we can find way better ways of defining ourselves than by war and militarism.

  12. mac1 13

    Gallipoli – Memorial at Anzac Cove by Ataturk.
    “Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
    You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
    You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.”
    Ataturk, 1934

    I was very moved to read these words at Anzac Cove ten years ago. Such generosity of spirit and a call to reconciliation.

    How markedly different from our current crop of leaders.

  13. keyman 14

    jacina adern needs cover up with creepykey on the loose

  14. North 15

    John Armstrong in the Herald this morning is hilarious – sage advice against premature us of the “R” word re Trichy-Key. I take that as an apology for his bullshit outburst
    over the 11 year old letter and Cunliffe. Even if not intended. His words today condemn his words of last year.

  15. Philip Ferguson 16

    A couple of plugs:

    Gallipoli invasion – a dirty and bloody business: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/gallipoli-invasion-a-dirty-and-bloody-business/

    The absurdity and obscenity of Gallipoli – three NZ writers accounts: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/04/24/the-absurdity-and-obscenity-of-gallipoli-three-new-zealand-writers-accounts/

    And, of course, just the previous year, NZ invaded Samoa and ruled it as a colony for the next near-50 years, carrying out the Black Saturday massacre, and caring so little for Samoan lives that thousands died during the influenza epidemic after the war: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/samoa-what-new-zealand-did/

    Then the NZ state compounded its disgraceful behaviour in relation to Samoa: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/depriving-samoans-of-immigration-and-citizenship-rights/

    • RedLogix 16.1

      I always understood Gallipoli as a catastrophe. My grandmother’s younger sister’s husband served right through WW1 and his War Diary – while constrained and understated – makes no bones of what an inglorious and disgraceful business it all was.

      And this is the reason why Gallipoli ranked so highly in the minds of the New Zealanders who lived through it. Before Gallipoli most New Zealanders still regarded Britain as the mother country; and themselves as citizens of the Empire. The images of naive young farm-boys queuing up for conscription, loading their farm horses onto ships for an ‘adventure’ in Europe are bitter indeed.

      After Gallipoli the monstrous, incompetent and catastrophic bungling of the British High Command was laid bare. Their unspoken, but palpable contempt for the lives to the ‘colonials’ they so culpably threw away in a futile, pointless campaign – was seared into the minds of many. It marked the critical turning point in the conciousness of this nation – and gave birth to a determination for New Zealand to grow as a nation with it’s own political agency.

      To my generation and earlier I believe this was a widespread understanding. The Dawn Services I attended as a youth were sombre, solemn affairs. The still living returned servicemen in attendance would not tolerate much foolish jingoism or flag-waving. They were there to remember their mates. And to grieve for their own loss of innocence.

      • Molly 16.1.1

        “The Dawn Services I attended as a youth were sombre, solemn affairs. The still living returned servicemen in attendance would not tolerate much foolish jingoism or flag-waving. They were there to remember their mates. And to grieve for their own loss of innocence.”

        This reflects my experience too.

        Have avoided the ANZAC parades since my son left the scouts many years ago, and the last I attended was the aforementioned one which was appropriated for a party political broadcast by our local National MP.

        I watch the children decked out in the medals of their unmet ancestors and I wonder at their knowledge of what it truly means. I understand the need to make sense of the loss, I’m just not sure the current method of doing so will lead us in the right direction, but unfortunately I have no answers to what will.

      • lprent 16.1.2

        To my generation and earlier I believe this was a widespread understanding. The Dawn Services I attended as a youth were sombre, solemn affairs. The still living returned servicemen in attendance would not tolerate much foolish jingoism or flag-waving. They were there to remember their mates. And to grieve for their own loss of innocence.

        Mine too. They were grim people about what happened in war. And quiet about it. Incredibly staunch if they felt that something needed to be done. Very reluctant to put younger bodies on the line if they didn’t think it was required. Very inclined to get drunk after the remembrances. Especially the ones who cleared Europe in 1945.

        It wasn’t until I went into the army in 1977 and ran across RF who’d been active in Vietnam, who would occasionally talk about it (usually when drinking), that I started to understand. Mind you, clearing the range of sheep with bren gun was a pretty graphic introduction.

        It goes both ways.

        Being a pacifist when you have conscienceless sociopathic arseholes around isn’t an option. At a local level, and just for an example, how on earth Cameron Slater got a gun license is an good example.

        On the other hand you don’t want inexperienced parasites like John Key who appears to have no background in any activity that doesn’t directly benefit himself being able play the ‘patriotic card’. because he will screw it up by the numbers. I am thinking about bloody David Lange thinking that he could send the troops into Fiji during the first coup as an example.

        The ideal would be to make sure that we have a counterbalance in the system that protects soldiers from the daft politicians, yet allows them to be used when they are useful. In the latter case East Timor comes to mind.

  16. Draco T Bastard 17

    PMs just wanna have fun …

    The question, that is, isn’t whether or not Key likes to characterise himself as a ‘joker’. Instead, it’s what he uses his ‘joking’ for?

    If the waitress’ account is anything to go by, it seems his ‘banter’ had the effect on the waitress of dominating, demeaning and cowing her while, simultaneously, asserting his power in the situation.

    As the research on humour makes clear, far from being entirely ‘innocent’ and ‘naive’ such “horsing around” may function primarily to aggress against and control others.

    That would be my take on JK’s joking. He’s using it to show his power over others.

  17. esoteric pineapples 18

    Hawkes Bay wedding photographer and syndicated columist Eva Bradley says in the Wairarapa Times Age today that New Zealanders didn’t die at Gallipoli so that we could worry about silly things like the Prime Minister repeatedly fondling a waitress’s hair.

    • idlegus 18.1

      anna stretton has penned something along those lines too, its online somewhere i really don’t want to look at it again. ‘its hardly a crime’ she opines.

    • marty mars 18.2

      we don’t want to bloody worry about it – she should send a text to John Key because he has let us and our ancestors down – he has disrespected everyone.

    • repateet 18.3

      Did Hawkes Bay wedding photographer and syndicated columist Eva Bradley say in the Wairarapa Times Age today that New Zealanders didn’t die at Gallipoli so that we could have a Prime Minister who could take away our rights?

      Did Hawkes Bay wedding photographer and syndicated columist Eva Bradley say in the Wairarapa Times Age today that New Zealanders didn’t die at Gallipoli so that we could have a Prime Minister who was a dicktator?

      • freedom 18.3.1

        it’s not exactly what one might call an enlightened read.

        And so this week in order to never be able to forget the sacrifice made by my forebears I have been making sure I know what there is to remember. I have been consuming the Gallipoli ‘‘special edition’’ sections of the various media, asking the odd old person in my life about what they knew about it as young tykes and soaking up history Hollywood-style with a couple of the flood of films timed to coincide with the anniversary.

        little wonder her view of the PM’s actions are so submissive

  18. North 19

    A foul colonisation of Anzac Day by Anna Stretton.

  19. Chooky 20

    Todays war… financial and sovereignty takeover is more subtle and by stealth and subterfuge ?….corporate takeover via TPP?

    ‘Rep. Alan Grayson blasts TPP’

    http://rt.com/shows/big-picture/252605-us-tpp-eu-greece/

    “Thom discusses fast-track and the TPP with Rep. Alan Grayson and whether European officials are pushing for regime change in Greece with Mark Weisbrot of the Center for Economic and Policy Research. In a special edition of Conversations with Great Minds, Thom talks with Constitution Society for Law and Policy’s Caroline Fredrickson, author of the new book ‘Under the Bus: How Working Women Are Being Run Over’….

  20. Murray Rawshark 21

    When a group of pre-adolescent Chilean schoolgirls were leaving on a trip to Wellington, the president, Michelle Bachelet, was asked if she had any advice for them. With a completely straight face, she said “Don’t have lunch with the Prime Minister.”

  21. alwyn 22

    You have a reputable source for this story do you Murray?
    Something better than your fertile imagination I hope?
    Please provide a reference.

    • logie97 22.1

      Loosen up alwyn. Read it again, reflect on the events of a recent NZ prison escapee, Key’s press interview comments that followed.

      I suspect that these might have been the words the president might have said to the children if such a trip existed.

    • Murray Rawshark 22.2

      Thanks for the laugh. You never fail to meet my expectations.

      • alwyn 22.2.1

        Just what I expected. It’s old b.s Murray at work again.
        It was so much better on this site when you were banned.

        • Murray Rawshark 22.2.1.1

          Do you think anyone who jokes about FJK should be chastised? I’d hate to think it was just me. And while we’re at it, get whatever’s stuck up your bum surgically removed. You might develop a reasonable facsimile of a sense of humour after that.

          Good to know you don’t like what I say. I don’t aim to please the site’s leading Tory apologist.

  22. Weepus beard 23

    alwyn is taking things seriously.

    PM needs to do the same.

  23. Weepus beard 24

    I’d be surprised if more women didn’t come forward before this is all finished.

    • Chooky 24.1

      yes i have been waiting for this too

    • Murray Rawshark 24.2

      The thing that hits home to me is that we have learned that the man who is our PM has been acting in the same manner as a sexually aggressive 12 year old and almost no one has come out and said “John Key would never do that. I don’t believe it.” Apart from one or two, most people seemed to have expected reports of something like this sooner or later and are not at all surprised. How low has our society sunk when we get to this?

      • Chooky 24.2.1

        well i did NOT expect it from a New Zealand Prime Minister!

        ….however now that the waitress Amanda Bailey has come forward with her story I find it entirely believable and would not be surprised if there are other women who have been similarly harassed ( eg. Bill Clinton did not make an inappropriate pass at just one woman….generally these abuses of power are serial)

        ( and btw congratulations are due to Bomber for breaking the story so sensitively with Amanda’s own account)

  24. jenny kirk 25

    “…almost no one has come out and said “John Key would never do that. I don’t believe it.”

    Its not how low has our society sunk, but how low has John Key taken us Murray R.

    And I personally think there has been so little surprise because we’ve been waiting for something to come out into the open ever since we learned about the “suppressed important NZer” indecent assault charges and the resultant buy-election. Something had to give : these things can’t be kept secret for ever in a small society like NZ – and the fact that there are now popping up on Facebook and other places many photos of the sleazy creepy PM fondling young girls’ hair indicates people have been keeping these pics in the wings, waiting for the right time to bring ’em out.

    • Murray Rawshark 25.1

      In the age of the internet, nothing goes away.

    • Chooky 25.2

      +100 agreed jenny kirk…there does seem to be a pattern of power abuse and corruption and hidden secrets and blatant, arrogant, cover ups with this Nact government led by John Key

      ….so it does conform to this pattern and therefore is not surprising at a subliminal level

    • Atiawa 25.3

      We are a country of many secrets Jenny. You rightly made reference to this in respect of the Waikato Maori wrongly imprisoned at North Head during WW1 because they refused to fight for a crown who stole their land. How many NZer’s would be aware of that story do you think? An important part of asserting pakeha dominance and their laws.
      I often wonder how many errant son’s were sent to these shores by their embarrassed family. This country grew up with secrets.
      We wouldn’t know the half of it. We have an ingrained culture of turning a blind eye or sweeping under the carpet and silence. Don;t we?

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