Open mike 26/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 26th, 2020 - 156 comments
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156 comments on “Open mike 26/04/2020 ”

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  1. RedLogix 1
    26 April 2020 at 7:49 am

    Malcom Turnbull's kiss and tell has spiced up an otherwise steady diet of COVID news on this side of the Tasman for some weeks. From a climate change point of view he's come out pointing the finger of blame for the denialist cult firmly at the Murdoch empire:

    He argues that the "crazed ideology" dictating the Liberal Party's policy on climate could now only be altered by a crushing electoral defeat, or an about-face on the issue from media magnate Rupert Murdoch.

    …

    Mr Turnbull describes Rupert Murdoch's media empire as "the largest endorser of climate denialism in the world".

    "I think if Lachlan Murdoch decided to become a greenie overnight, the Coalition would switch instantly. They'd turn on a dime. Andrew Bolt would suddenly discover he was a greenie, Alan Jones would develop a passionate love for solar panels, Peta Credlin would be, you know, into pumped hydro — they'd all switch," he insists.

    • Cinny 1.1
      26 April 2020 at 9:49 am

      Mr Turnbull describes Rupert Murdoch's media empire as "the largest endorser of climate denialism in the world".

      How long has it taken him to work that one out? Well at least he's being vocal about it, credit where credit is due.

      From earlier in the year… first story up approx 11 mins long.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZmdrDaH4eo

      Murdoch's media empire has long held a disproportionate influence over Australian politics and he and Prime Minister Scott Morrison are united on this issue. Throw in Murdoch's close ties to Australia's powerful fossil fuel lobby and all the elements are there for a conspiracy of disinformation on the biggest, gravest story of our time.

    • Sacha 1.2
      26 April 2020 at 10:58 am

      At least Turnbull is finally acknowledging who was really in charge. What ripples is that causing in the current govt and their backers?

  2. Sacha 2
    26 April 2020 at 9:07 am

    That's nice for you. Mind telling the rest of us what it is?

    • halfcrown 2.1
      26 April 2020 at 9:12 am

      Can't you see it? I might cancel this and try again.
      It was a funny to bring a smile to one’s face, unfortunately I cannot seem to get the thing to work on the Standard
      Will have to “study” a bit more how to paste items on here.

  3. Cinny 3
    26 April 2020 at 9:42 am

    Spoke to my friend who is an ECE worker at a busy childcare centre.

    In a normal day there would be around 30 -35 pre-schoolers attending their facility.

    Of that number only four, are going to return to preschool this week.

    • aj 3.1
      26 April 2020 at 9:57 am

      Which shows that parents are following advice. Use their own judgement and send children to these facilities only if absolutely necessary.

    • Heather Grimwood 3.2
      26 April 2020 at 10:01 am

      to Cinny at 2 : At least shows that most littlies and their teachers will be safe…guess keeping distance no problem with possibly one-to- one correspondence! Also would seem to indicate that most emergency workers have either organised otherwise or have no small ones. ( depends of course on the locality of this one example.)

    • Treetop 3.3
      26 April 2020 at 10:30 am

      Are you aware that there is no before school or after school care for children at level 3?

      The ECE centres which are opening appear to be doing so in bubbles of about 4.

      I would like to know whether there is a difference in privately run centres and government run centres when it comes to opening?

      I do not envy ECE teachers/ workers or teachers of new entrants, year 1 and 2.

      At some point children will need to return to school. I did hear that there is going to be social distancing at level 2.

      With winter to consider and children being indoors and the flu season, the Ministry of Education need to work closely with the Ministry of Health. The measuses taken need to be able to be implemented and based on proven science in a NZ setting and the season of the year.

      • I Feel Love 3.3.1
        26 April 2020 at 10:34 am

        I've got my kids staying home and their teacher told me none of her kids are showing up next week.

      • Cinny 3.3.2
        26 April 2020 at 10:38 am

        I would like to know whether there is a difference in privately run centres and government run centres when it comes to opening?

        I'd suggest you contact the Ministry or search the Covid website as it appears to be an issue for you Treetop.

        You could contact kindergartens (govt) and childcare centres (private) in your own area and share your findings. Same for after school care.

        Parents are rather wise and will keep their children home whenever they possibly can during a pandemic. NZ people are great like that, they work together.

    • Incognito 3.4
      26 April 2020 at 12:49 pm

      Baby steps.

  4. Stephen D 4
    26 April 2020 at 10:00 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121249170/paul-godsmith-getting-new-zealand-working-again-heres-my-plan

    Paul Goldsmith, bring the same old crap to the party. The market will provide!

    For some weird reason, I can post, but not reply.

    Ps, Stuff really do need a sub editor.

    • ianmac 4.1
      26 April 2020 at 10:18 am

      Stephen I thought that that call from Mr Goldsmith could have just as easily come from the current Government. Except that the Government sees more infrastructure being needed after years of neglect. And a willingness to consult with the expertise of many interested parties. And clear leadership from the top.

      Perhaps Goldsmith would prefer a hands off approach and leave smitten businesses to sink – with no handouts.

      • Sabine 4.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 10:34 am

        well to be fair…….

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12327486

        Labour MP Deborah Russell has backtracked on her comments regarding small businesses' own responsibility for being in trouble in the pandemic.

        Earlier this week, Russell made headlines when she said businesses in trouble "after only a few weeks in a pretty bad situation" was a sign they did not have the necessary strength.

        During a select committee hearing on Tuesday, the Labour MP for New Lynn, a former academic, questioned Finance Minister Grant Robertson about her "concerns around small and medium business" and what was being done to build up business strength.

        "We are seeing a number of small businesses really struggling, after only a few weeks in a pretty bad situation, which must speak to the strength of those small businesses going into this lockdown.

        there is not much difference between the highly paid and rather useless suits in government. The blue don't hide their contempt for the workers of the country, and labour pretends to be 'kinder and gentler' in their contempt. Both parties don't give a shit about the working class of this country. And if anything, it shows with ever passing day that the government does nothing for small/medium/large and micro businesses.

        • Treetop 4.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 10:55 am

          Small business were always going to take a hit when it comes to a consumer accessing their product, if the service/product is a want before a need.

          Some businesses may survive if they combine with another business and this would reduce overheads.

        • Peter 4.1.1.2
          26 April 2020 at 11:24 am

          Russell said some businesses in trouble "after only a few weeks in a pretty bad situation" was a sign they did not have the necessary strength.' Was she right?

          If Russell had said "Bauer being only a few weeks in a pretty bad situation was a sign they did not have the necessary strength' would she have been right?

          Does her saying that mean that she and her party don't give a shit about the working class of this country and shows with ever passing day that the government does nothing for small/medium/large and micro businesses?

          Did Russell condemn business owners for not having the 'strength'?

          • pat 4.1.1.2.1
            26 April 2020 at 11:48 am

            "That's not sustainable," says Steven Scheckter, owner of On Trays Emporium in Petone. Shepherd Elliot of Shepherd estimates the over-supply may run as high as 10 to 15 per cent.

            Such fierce competition means New Zealand restaurateurs are loath to be the first to put their prices up. Yet this they desperately need to do, in order to recover their own dramatically escalating costs – of wages, rent and food. There's also a dire shortage of skilled staff.

            Already the cracks are beginning to show in the number of high-profile closures in main centres this year."

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/food-news/115028830/done-like-a-dinner-nzs-hospitality-crisis

            August 2019

          • mary_a 4.1.1.3.1
            26 April 2020 at 2:19 pm

            Hi Chris @ (3.1.1.3). I read about this greedy, despicable arsehole earlier today.

            How Black could possibly act like he has done and then boast about it during a nationwide crisis, thieving from Kiwi workers is totally beyond comprehension. Then has the gall to ridicule the government for "throwing money about," while pocketing it himslelf, claiming it's to help his business, so as to keep his workers in a job! A liar and a cheat of the worst kind.

            A dishonest, thieving, fraudulant creep, is to put it mildly. Can only hope the law deals with him and his ilk harshly.

            Yep, National would love Black, if he's not one of them alreasy!

            • Peter 4.1.1.3.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 3:45 pm

              It's about Stuff trying to make a story and finding someone to oblige. According to what was there:

              'It was just a stupid idea from the Labour Government, the Government was "stupid" to pay out, ”We've got people making really big decisions without a lot of forethought."

              To me it sounds like he hates Labour, doesn't want them in power and thinks the alternative, National I suppose, would have acted with forethought

              When he said, "it frustrates the hell out of me," I assume he means Labour being in Government. If the Government trying to help businesses frustrates him he should change his name to Dick.

          • McFlock 4.1.1.3.2
            26 April 2020 at 5:10 pm

            Seems to me he's saying the subsidy did its job, and now he gets a free audit lol

    • Ad 4.2
      26 April 2020 at 11:22 am

      If National really have the inside running on private sector leadership, then they should demonstrate that by bringing together a massive group of the good and the great of NZ business leadership to outlines their plans.

      I wish someone would.

    • Grantoc 4.3
      26 April 2020 at 12:05 pm

      Stephen

      You're misrepresenting Goldsmith.

      His article discusses the way different sectors can contribute to our ability to recover from the economic impact of Covid -19.

      He acknowledges the role of government, alongside the role of the private sector. Neither can drive the economic recovery on its own; both of these key sectors need to be involved in an inter related way.

      • ianmac 4.3.1
        26 April 2020 at 1:17 pm

        If I was a small Business Owner, what was Goldsmith actually promoting for my 3 person business to survive that was not already in the wings?

  5. Morrissey 5
    26 April 2020 at 10:26 am

    Possible Replacements for Bumbling Bridges
    No. 1: SIMON O’CONNOR

    Positives:
    (1) He has a lovely wife.

    (2) He’s opposed to old and sick people being “euthanized.”

    Negatives:
    (1) He’s a Simon. That carries very bad associations right now.

    (2) He’s a rather ridiculous royalist, who a few years ago drove the doddering old reprobate Sir Robert Jones into the following spittle-flecked denunciation….

    You’re a thirty-five-year-old octogenarian! If you are the future of the National Party, then—- arrrrrrrggghhh!

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/womans-mag-editor-humiliates-dyspeptic.html

    This series is compiled by the team at Daisycutter Sports, Inc.

    Coming up: Paula Bennett

  6. Andre 6
    26 April 2020 at 10:27 am

    Worldwide fatalities from COVID are certainly being undercounted. One way to get a handle on how large the undercount might be is to compare actual deaths to expected deaths for that time period. The Economist article linked below (not paywalled) takes a look and it's scary.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

    • I Feel Love 6.1
      26 April 2020 at 10:32 am

      20,000 covid deaths in the UK, and that's not counting covid deaths at home, resthomes or hospices, so yes, there's def under reporting.

      • Peter 6.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 11:27 am

        Can you see the Trump going on about his mate Boris fudging the figures? Last week on the podium when the graphs were up he said (paraphrased, "But you don't believe those numbers from Chine A, everyone knows they're fake."

    • Treetop 6.2
      26 April 2020 at 10:46 am

      Everything that Covid-19 does is undercounted. Watch a spike in medical conditions for survivors. Probably there is just the one cause of death being entered Covid-19 and not organ failure or an antecedent cause. I have not raised anxiety/depression and grief which many will require support for.

    • patricia 6.3
      26 April 2020 at 12:07 pm

      Thanks Andre, a thought provoking post. I look forward to your take on things as you present facts rather than reckons.

  7. Andre 7
    26 April 2020 at 10:50 am

    New York City now has approximately 16,000 deaths attributed to COVID, roughly 40,000 hospitalisations, and roughly 150,000 and those almost certainly undercounts. While those rates may have dropped off their peak a little bit, new cases, hospitalisations and deaths are still coming thick and fast. Even with their lockdown.

    Per million, that's 1900 deaths (0.19% population death rate), 4750 hospitalisations, 18,000 cases. Scaled to New Zealand's population, that's 9100 deaths, 23,000 hospitalisations, 86,000 cases.

    Just something to keep in mind when people publish stuff claiming infection fatality rates might be as low as 0.1% (obviously laughably wrong), or that New Zealand's response was too tough or that we really need to charge hard to go back to how things were before.

    Particularly when those comments come from people whose only ideas for dealing with the coming pandemic were tax cuts.

    • Cinny 7.1
      26 April 2020 at 10:53 am

      I read last night something like 1 in 56 New Yorker's are infected. sad

      • joe90 7.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 11:23 am

        Worse.

        • New York City reported its first confirmed COVID-19 case on March 1; a new model from Northeastern University says nearly 11,000 people in the city could already have been infected by then, NYT reported
        • 13.9% of people tested in a New York COVID-19 antibody study tested positive, meaning they had the virus, Cuomo says; that means up to 2.7 million people could have been infected statewide
        • Nearly 23,000 lives have been lost to coronavirus in the tri-state area to date; more than 386,000 people have been infected — and those are just the ones we know about. NJ will eclipse 100k cases Friday

        Preliminary results from New York's first coronavirus antibody study show nearly 14 percent tested positive, meaning they had the virus at some point and recovered, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Thursday. That equates to 2.7 million infections statewide — more than 10 times the state's confirmed cases

        https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/new-york-virus-deaths-top-15k-cuomo-expected-to-detail-plan-to-fight-nursing-home-outbreaks/2386556/

        • Treetop 7.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 12:13 pm

          Did you catch up with the first case of death from Covid-19 on 6 February 2020 in California? The next death was on 17 February 2020. Obviously was in the population undetected. Cannot do a link on my phone.

          Cuomo is doing a good job compared to Trump. Cuomo is being a leader. Shame Cuomo is not standing for president. I need to look it up if he put himself forward as a candidate.

      • Andre 7.1.2
        26 April 2020 at 11:27 am

        Yup. 8,400,000 New York city residents divided by 150,000 cases is indeed 1 in 56.

        But that's almost certainly a massive undercount. More than half the tests they do come back positive, so there's a shitload out there with it that have never been near a medical facility to get counted. More realistic estimates from credible sources range from 5% to 20% infection rate. Which is still a long way short of the 50% plus needed before the epidemic would naturally burn itself out.

        • Cinny 7.1.2.1
          26 April 2020 at 12:27 pm

          FOrk!

          I also heard that the tests cost money. Have you heard that Andre, that you have to pay to get a test?

          Another thing I wondered is due to no free health care, would people hold off seeking medical help until it was too late?

          • I Feel Love 7.1.2.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 12:37 pm

            Of course in the USA tests cost money, lots of money. There's also medical centres closing down and laying staff off because they're profit making businesses, by shutting down surgery and other procedures they're not making money. It's a very poor system.

            (I was shocked how much abortion costs over there, thousands of dollars, it's such a sad country).

          • Andre 7.1.2.1.2
            26 April 2020 at 12:43 pm

            One of the coronavirus relief bills already passed includes free coronavirus testing. But medical centres are still finding ways to stick people with huge bills for turning up to get free testing.

            https://www.cnet.com/how-to/are-coronavirus-tests-free-yes-but-you-still-might-get-a-bill/

            Prior to this, I read about bills averaging $1500 and going as high as $3000 to get a test done. Even if you had insurance that should have covered it, there would still be huge co-pays plus the hassle of dealing with insurance.

            All in all, there's huge incentive to keep well clear of the US medical system unless you are desperately in need of help and willing to risk bankruptcy to get it.

            Even with a good insurance plan, there's still good reason to keep clear. Over the 9 years I was there in the 90s, I basically wrote off about a couple grand in doctors visit fees for routine simple things that my insurance should have covered, but in the end I gave up on the hassle of getting the insurance to pay up. It will be way worse now.

          • Stunned Mullet 7.1.2.1.3
            26 April 2020 at 12:54 pm

            'Another thing I wondered is due to no free health care, would people hold off seeking medical help until it was too late?'

            Well as it's happening in NZ even with a free healthcare system it is easy to predict it would happen in the USA.

    • Sacha 7.2
      26 April 2020 at 10:55 am

      people whose only ideas for dealing with the coming pandemic were tax cuts.

      Some easy clips for an election campaign.

    • Stunned Mullet 7.3
      26 April 2020 at 12:52 pm

      I can't see why anyone would compare NZ's COVID-19 response and outcomes to those of NY ?

      NZ has little inc common with NY apart from we both speak a common language (kind of).

      • Incognito 7.3.1
        26 April 2020 at 1:18 pm

        Fair question. No two countries/regions are the same. Just pick any one to compare with NZ to suit your narrative. When it no longer suits your narrative, find another one to compare with. Rinse and repeat. Steve Elers made the same mistake in his blatantly biased and stupid opinion piece on Stuff yesterday; thick as a brick, IMHO.

      • Andre 7.3.2
        26 April 2020 at 1:29 pm

        When I'm looking at what might be a reasonable response to a situation, I find it useful to look for something that could plausibly represent the worst-case scenario. Along with a bunch of other better scenarios for comparison.

        New York gives a hint at how bad things could have got here had we held off on lockdowns until our situation became much worse.

  8. Cinny 8
    26 April 2020 at 10:50 am

    Strange going's on in the USA ….

    NO presser for trump today, that's a first.

    He's going full nato on twitter re fake news. I guess he's upset that people are calling him stupid.

    What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately. They get record ratings, & the American people get nothing but Fake News. Not worth the time & effort!

    Fun fact, trump respects the american people soooo much that he is always, always late to these conferences, from 15 mins to up to an hour late, every single day.

    USA is going to implode, the division trump is causing is off the hook.

    • ScottGN 8.1
      26 April 2020 at 1:15 pm

      According to New York Times Republicans are getting some very scary polling coming thru. They’re suggesting that as well as the White House there’s a growing possibility that even the GOP’s majority in The Senate could be overturned in November. They’ve got to rein Trump in before it’s too late

    • Peter 8.2
      26 April 2020 at 2:18 pm

      I wouldn't get at Trump's tardiness to the conferences. I don't know what happens out the back with people trying to get their stories together and extra time being needed to at least try to get Trump to see the point.

      No doubt sometimes the delays are theatrics. He knows he has everyone in the room and around the world in the palm of his hand, waiting. They rely on him, they need him and while he can't control what they think making them wait is a childish way to exercise some power.

      It would be good if the empire struck back like an April fools prank and deserted the room before he and his entourage entered, every single person including all the TV people. (One of the worst 'conferences' was the April 1st one as it turned out.). That isn't going to happen what with Fox and the White House itself beaming coverage out.

      One journalist stuffed up one day when he asked a perfectly fair, ordinary question. He was insistent when Trump wouldn't answer properly. Trump said, "If you ask that again I'm leaving." The journalist didn't ask it again. Had the journalist been as narcissistic as Trump he would have taken the challenge. Didn't want to take away the public's access to information I think. Unless he thought his life would have been over by carrying through. It spoiled what should have been our fun and denied him the chance of being a legend.

  10. coge 10
    26 April 2020 at 11:47 am

    Are any of you thinking Labour should call an early election?

    Good chance to lock in the gains, which might not endure later this year. An announcement of level two, might be the best time. Clearly changes would need to be incorporated at polling stations. These could also be announced at the same time.

    Going to the people to secure a mandate, for these difficult times.

    • Andre 10.1
      26 April 2020 at 11:49 am

      Maybe it's just me, but that kind of cynical opportunism would piss me right off.

      • Chris T 10.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 1:58 pm

        Indeed.

        To the point of probably back-firing on them.

        Doubt Winston would agree any way.

        • observer 10.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 2:23 pm

          It would backfire, and I'm sure Ardern does not intend to do it anyway.

          But for the record, she would not need Winston's agreement. The PM announces the date, no approval required from NZF. That's why she's picked September, and his own preference for November is irrelevant.

    • Sacha 10.2
      26 April 2020 at 11:50 am

      You need to have communicated a plan before securing a mandate for it. That takes a few months at least, after securing internal agreement. How does say September sound?

      • weka 10.2.1
        26 April 2020 at 12:06 pm

        Hard to secure a mandate when there are three parties involved, one of whom is notorious for keeping their cards close to their chest pre-election.

    • observer 10.3
      26 April 2020 at 12:17 pm

      "Clearly changes would need to be incorporated at polling stations. These could also be announced at the same time."

      That's the Electoral Commission's job. NZ is not the USA, election rules are not decided by gerrymandering incumbents. So, no.

      There is no chance of Ardern trying to "cash in" with a snap election. She's no fool, and knows what the reaction would be. There is a slight chance of one being forced, by NZF imploding, but still unlikely.

      September it is.

  11. joe90 11
    26 April 2020 at 11:55 am

    I guess the one country two systems was always a convenient nonsense.

    With the world distracted by the novel coronavirus pandemic, China has carried out a power grab in the former British colony, whose way of life it had pledged to preserve until 2047. In recent days, authorities have said for the first time that Beijing’s representative offices in the territory can “supervise” Hong Kong’s internal affairs — a step that legal experts say violates its constitutional firewall with the mainland. The Basic Law stipulates that the city should run its own affairs, including the police and immigration system, apart from defense and foreign relations.

    Beijing officials also called for Hong Kong to introduce a national security law — shelved when an earlier attempt at its introduction sparked massive protests in 2003 — and reached further into the city’s legislature with attacks on pro-democracy lawmakers.

    The shift “signals the death of the ‘two systems,’ ” said Eric Cheung, a legal scholar at the University of Hong Kong. “It is quite clear that they are now bringing the mainland system, the mainland idea of supervision and rule of law, here.”

    http://archive.li/XiYk2

  12. Treetop 12
    26 April 2020 at 12:00 pm

    I have been giving redundancies a thought.

    Will a privately run business fall over before a government funded business?

    Which businesses are likely to have the highest redundancies?

    Which level is going to create the worst unemployment?

    I cannot see people having the same interest in running a daycare or a rest home if privately run. As well working in these professions a person's health would need to be assessed more carefully. The fees are out of reach already for some and increasing fees would probably not be enough to save the business.

    • Cinny 12.1
      26 April 2020 at 12:24 pm

      20 free hours childcare, that means childcare centres won't fall over, makes no difference if its private or a kindy.

      Aged care…. if you can't pay for it the state will. So that's taken care of too.

      Treetop, don't worry about the aged care and child care going broke, they'll both be just fine. Instead how about thinking of new ideas and innovations, cup half full and all that.

      • Treetop 12.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 12:53 pm

        The 20 hours free ECE is for age 3 and above. Often there is a surcharge on top of this. There is a MSD subsidy for fees but again often not enough and it is means tested. Kindergartens are insulated due to being fully government funded. There is a disparity in pay between privately run and government run ECE staff.

        Rest homes have been understaffed for decades and some of the food is not nutrious enough for the health of the residents.

        Improvements are required and there is a cost for this. Often the young and the old are the most overlooked when it comes to their needs being met.

    • Blazer 12.2
      26 April 2020 at 1:38 pm

      In the Great Depression working for the Govt was the best job you could have.

      • Treetop 12.2.1
        26 April 2020 at 2:02 pm

        So I believe that was the case.

        Do you know if there was a wage cut for a government worker during the depression or longer hours without pay were worked?

        • Heather Grimwood 12.2.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 2:23 pm

          to Treetop at 11.2.1 : I know my father as principal of a sole school was able to KEEP his job because he had a child…..me. Presumably the intention was to substitute an untrained teacher. As well, teachers' training colleges were shut for some time and for a year, entrance to school was raised from five to six years. I estimate the latter would have been in 1934.

          This info must be in government records somewhere.

          • Treetop 12.2.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 3:15 pm

            Thank you for sharing this family history. You would have seen a lot of changes in your lifetime in so many ways.

            I can see by what you wrote that the government tried to reduce educational costs during the depression.

            I have a friend with 2 young children who is in her last semester for her degree. It is a long semester and she will need to rely on daycare for her youngest and ECE care for her preschooler. I find the terms ECE and daycare to have their separate issues. I tend to use daycare for under age 3 and ECE for age 3 and 4.

  13. RedLogix 13
    26 April 2020 at 12:04 pm

    You're probably right.

    Weka was making a good point in her OP that mocking and sneering at Trump's weak grasp of the science is counterproductive. And yet the comments mostly headed off in just that direction (with some honourably constructive exceptions).

    I've been in this boat many times before, defending the unpopular. Hell remember Philip Field? I still think at least part of his treatment was racist as hell, and I mean that word in it's original powerful meaning. But pointing that out was not what most people wanted to hear at the time.

    It never meant I supported what Field did; it was clearly a bad misjudgement and he was always going to be pinged for it. But the way he was utterly crushed struck me as vengeful and beyond just.

    Yes I'm well aware that it would be so much easier to self-censor sometimes. But in the end silence is complicit.

    [“Weka was making a good point in her OP that mocking and sneering at Trump’s weak grasp of the science is counterproductive.”

    No, I didn’t say that at all. I said that ridiculing anti-vaxxer/conspiracy theory/alt health types is ineffective for the same reasons that calling Trump supporters deplorables is. Trump himself deserves to be ridiculed.

    I don’t think what I wrote is hard to parse, and I’ve offered to clarify. You’ve admitted you didn’t read the post properly. This is something like the third time I’ve asked you to stop mispresenting/misinterpreting my post. Please stop doing this because it looks like your misusing my post to run your own lines in the comments. – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • RedLogix 13.1
      26 April 2020 at 2:30 pm

      Trump himself deserves to be ridiculed.

      If it's perfectly OK to mock Trump with inaccurate headlines that you openly accept he didn't say, then exactly why do you feel it necessary to move comments to OM when you feel I've misrepresented your own words?

      You get to run the rules as you see fit on your own threads, but this is now in OM.

      My point is an important one; if the left wants to present itself as kind, empathetic and inclusive … we cannot pick and choose who is on the inside or outside. If you want to make justice the pivot of your worldview, then you have to be as just to Trump as you are to anyone else. No matter how much it pains you to do so.

      Yes by all means point out his lack of clarity and correct it if you really feel the need. Although I have to say when I first watched the video I managed to translate it without concluding I had to run out and inject Janola in my veins; as did most grown-ups. Trump as usual made a mess of this; but gratuitously mocking him for his weak grasp of the science is the same as mocking his supporters. And these are the people we want to vote Biden in a few months time.

      The man is utterly unfit to the President in any meaningful sense; but this is not the way to remove him.

      • weka 13.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 2:54 pm

        I wasn't mocking Trump with the headline, I was poking at people who think Trump's not so bad. You still don't understand the post, which is fine, but please stay out of it for the rest of the day, because this is solidly in derail territory now.

        • RedLogix 13.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 3:22 pm

          I want Trump gone more than anyone else. Coming from an internationalist perspective (and with my climate change hat on), Trump has been nothing but a disaster.

          You made a perfectly sound point when you said that mocking and sneering at people whose minds you want to change is counterproductive. I don't believe I misused it at all. Far too many people who might otherwise happily support progressive causes are repelled by the open hypocrisy of the left when it says how fair and kind it is, and acts cruelly on the other.

          In political terms the US Democrats hold their own fate in their hands. The factional alliances that underpin both the Republicans and Democrats are in complete turmoil at the moment; and the party that gets it's act together first will be the one that takes power in the US. The Democrat establishment have wasted much the past four years on tearing down Trump rather than building their own alliances. Ironically some of their primary candidates actually got that … but they all got eliminated.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 3:26 pm

            "I want Trump gone more than anyone else."
            I just want him gone – it's not a ‘virtue signalling‘ competition wink

      • Gabby 13.1.2
        26 April 2020 at 5:16 pm

        Gratuitously?

  14. Scumbag Andy 14
    26 April 2020 at 12:10 pm

    No, I didn't write this. No one would believe it.

    Asshole tells everyone he an asshole, no one cares.

    I wonder what his lawyer will do. I wonder what his accountant will do. I wonder what the government will do. I wonder what the IRD will do. I wonder what his employees will do. Nah, I'm just fuckin with ya. I know what all those people will do.

    These are the kind of cunts our government sought to appease by easing a level 4 lockdown that was almost working. For the price of four working days, and any claims of bold leadership or coherent planning, we can go back to work for the Tony Black's of our country on Tuesday. Some come on down, bring the kids, there's a BBq'd sausage waiting for you!

    • weka 14.1
      26 April 2020 at 12:48 pm

      Sacha saved me from writing many sentences,

      https://twitter.com/kaupapa/status/1254207356541390848

      • McFlock 14.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 6:21 pm

        Lol he's changed his story a bit now.

        Apparently now he'll happily pay the money back that doesn't go straight to staff.

        So much for his "lolly scramble".

        • I Feel Love 14.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 6:26 pm

          I just thought it was macho king of industry macho postering, a catch 22 really, if his business doesn't need the money he'll have to pay it back, if he does need it he won't have to. He's shown himself to be quite a dick really.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.2
          26 April 2020 at 7:13 pm

          If the money had just been deposited into the business account he might have had a point but he applied for it and met the eligibility criteria and unless his situation has changed markedly he’ll still be entitled to it. Actually, his employees are entitled to it since it is a wage subsidy scheme.

          • weka 14.1.1.2.1
            26 April 2020 at 8:42 pm

            It's not clear to me that he can hang onto the money for the rest of the financial year if he doesn't use it over the 12 weeks. Would also like to know what happens with the interest earned in that time.

    • pat 14.2
      26 April 2020 at 12:56 pm

      forensic audit

      • AB 14.2.1
        26 April 2020 at 3:28 pm

        Yep – his entire tax arrangements over several years could perhaps do with some scrutiny.

    • Stunned Mullet 14.3
      26 April 2020 at 1:07 pm

      At the risk of being shouted down at least he is being honest.

      Add to that the primary eligibility criteria is….

      Is your actual or predicted revenue down at least 30% in any four-week period between January and 9 June 2020 because of COVID-19?

      Being a fairly low bar when the majority of business is locked down for a five week period, he makes some reasonable points through clearly not in the way many at this forum would like.

      Do people really believe that there won't be many many businesses that will have taken a similar view ?

      • pat 14.3.1
        26 April 2020 at 1:14 pm

        It is a low bar…but comes with obligations that must be fulfilled.

        "Employers must pass the full amount received onto the employee, except where a person’s income is normally less than the subsidy amount (i.e. $250 a week), in which case they can be paid their normal salary. Any difference should be used for the wages of other affected staff – the wage subsidy is designed to keep your employees connected to their employers."

        "The modified Wage Subsidy Scheme, and the previous COVID-19 leave and wage subsidy schemes, are considered excluded income to businesses and are also GST exempt. When passed on as wages, businesses don’t get a deduction for income tax purposes.

        Payments to employees under the modified Wage Subsidy Scheme, and the previous COVID-19 wage subsidy and leave schemes, are wages. Therefore, they are subject to standard deductions like PAYE, ACC levies, KiwiSaver contributions and student loan repayments."

        https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/other-types-of-leave/coronavirus-workplace/wage-subsidy/

        • Stunned Mullet 14.3.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 1:48 pm

          Yep – and there's no indication he doesn't intend to abide by those requirements.

          I understand the indignant responses to his comments which to be fair isn't helped by the way the article framed them.

          • pat 14.3.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 2:39 pm

            There will be thousands of SMEs cursing him to hell and back for highlighting his fortunate position….not to mention a few industry representative bodies.

            • Stunned Mullet 14.3.1.1.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 2:43 pm

              No doubt.

              What it also highlights for me is that updates of the pandemic response plan in future should include detailed information on governmental economic response and allowable activities during and after lockdown informed from our experiences now and over the next 6-12 months.

              • pat …
                26 April 2020 at 3:22 pm

                His criticisms of the subsidy are pedantic as it was in place and delivering the needed assurance within days to enable the lockdown….and covered a period required to enable elimination of the virus.

                Support programmes overseas have been panned for failing to deliver support in weeks or indeed sometimes months (trump cheque anyone?)…I think we know how it would have been received here had there been a protracted application and approval process.

                • KJT …
                  26 April 2020 at 3:31 pm

                  "Throwing money around" is the only possible response. Even the most "anti Government spending" proponents have their hands out, now. And the most "Small Government" right wing Governments, are doing it.

                  Fine Targeting is impossible in the necessary time frame.

                  Some will end up in the wrong places, but as long as overall, it supports workers and businesses to continue, it has succeeded.

                  • Graeme …
                    26 April 2020 at 8:59 pm

                    We are receiving the subsidy and have found the process completely seamless and efficient. The design, with having the recipients published, is quite elegant and will have kept a lot of people a bit more honest than they otherwise may have been. Although after making the application I thought "Is that all I have to do???"

                    Have been audited too, two payments to the same account got the flags up. That was about a week after the payments came through and was professional and courteous. Most impressed with the job MSD have done here.

            • McFlock 14.3.1.1.2.1
              26 April 2020 at 5:38 pm

              The only way for him to make money off it is to have money coming in while the govt pays his employees. Fair enough. Good for him.

              Anything else (inflating his salary/wage as director, inflating his predicted profit, not paying his other employees) would make his little puff piece a very foolish move indeed.

  15. pat 15
    26 April 2020 at 12:10 pm

    “Rescue measures absolutely must come with conditions attached. Now that the state is back to playing a leading role, it must be cast as the hero rather than as a naive patsy. That means delivering immediate solutions, but designing them in such a way as to serve the public interest over the long term.”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/26/1141709/a-message-for-the-timid-fearful-and-selfish

    "Conversions from selfish to selfless are rare. Those who benefited the most from the status quo will fight hard to restore and enhance their position. Examples abound in this crisis."

  16. dv 16
    26 April 2020 at 12:37 pm

    Two interesting (scary) articles

    1 As mass coronavirus testing expands in U.S. prisons, the results are revealing a shocking truth about the virus — large numbers of infected inmates are showing no symptoms. In four state prison systems — Arkansas, North Carolina, Ohio and Virginia — 96% of the over 3,200 inmates who tested positive for the coronavirus were asymptomatic.

    https://play.stuff.co.nz/details/_6152092116001

    2 Young people, with mild to no symptoms of Covid-19, are dying of strokes related to the virus, doctors have warned.

    The experts say Covid-19 seems to be the cause for sudden strokes in adults in their 30s and 40s, who are otherwise healthy.
    The virus seems to be causing increased clotting in the large arteries, leading to severe stroke,” Dr Thomas Oxley, a neurosurgeon at Mount Sinai Health System in New York, told CNN.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12327627&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&fbclid=IwAR3wtCgqFAjDWOCrLLh6v1uCYj453O4qrrpf9OFLhFigwfc41NNOIpqNJ3c

  17. adam 17
    26 April 2020 at 1:08 pm

    Personalisation of politics is not helpful.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 17.1
      26 April 2020 at 1:16 pm

      Personally I find indirect casting of aspersions on others via language that avoids being specific much more of a problem.

      This isn’t just politics. It’s also human interaction in a very specific culture and as an author and mod that often requires being specific to individual people.

      I did you the respect of responding in depth to your comment under my post. A comment that had some interesting points, but appeared to be ignoring the content and point of the post. Your response is to that is to make another indirect criticism of me or my comment.

      • adam 17.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 1:19 pm

        Feel free to delete it.

        Edit: Because I’m not attacking you – but you think I am. If that is what you think then deleting my post seems the only option.

        • Incognito 17.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 1:29 pm

          Feel free to miss/ignore the point.

          Ever wondered why comments are moved to OM instead of outright deleted here, even with, or particularly with a note or comment from a Moderator?

          • adam 17.1.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 1:33 pm

            Thanks for the condescension incogneto.

            • weka 17.1.1.1.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 1:38 pm

              Take the day off please adam. It's not that what you are doing is hugely problematic, but I'm out of patience for long termers here not paying attention to what moderators are asking or suggesting.

            • Incognito 17.1.1.1.1.2
              26 April 2020 at 2:02 pm

              Any time 😉

        • weka 17.1.1.2
          26 April 2020 at 1:36 pm

          "Because I’m not attacking you – but you think I am"

          No, I don't, I just think you are disrespecting me somewhat as an author, and unwilling to engage in debate /shrug. I still hope that will change for you because I think you have important ideas to bring to the table.

          Plus, what Incog said.

  18. Chris T 18
    26 April 2020 at 2:33 pm

    I am sad and pathetic I know, but was just looking at the order paper for Parliament restarting Tuesday.

    It has oral questions listed

    Will be interesting to see how that works.

    It might have already been brought up, and forgive me if it has, but are they just having minimal MPs in the chamber itself, or are they doing it online?

    • observer 18.1
      26 April 2020 at 2:36 pm

      Plan is for minimal MPs (not sure how many).

      At least there will be a lot less "Who said that?" from the Speaker. Hard for the naughty ones to hide.

      • Chris T 18.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 2:41 pm

        “Which MP just said that watching online!! Get out of bed and withdraw and apologies at your laptop. And for christs sake put some pants on first!”.

      • Treetop 18.1.2
        26 April 2020 at 3:33 pm

        There could be a strong National party presence. Don't know how they will manage the 2m physical distancing. Will be interesting to see how they do the seating.

        How mobile are the seats in the debating chamber?

        As for the naughty ones, yes could be a bit exposed if low numbers.

  19. joe90 19
    26 April 2020 at 3:25 pm

    Get ready everyone, it's happening.

    [Sure is, but what? Only way to find out is to click on a non-descriptive link, which I refuse to do, for a number of reasons. Remember good old Ed the commenter here? Do you remember what one of his main ‘crimes’ was? – Incognito]

    [lprent: It is funny though. joe – how about learning how to embed a image. ]

    • Incognito 19.1
      26 April 2020 at 4:06 pm

      See my Moderation note @ 3:25 PM.

      • joe90 19.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 4:56 pm

        Or folk could mouse-over and see that it's a reddit image.

        • Incognito 19.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 5:10 pm

          Didn’t see the three letters “png” in the long link; do you know how many bloody links I see here every day? Anyway, what Lynn said.

      • McFlock 19.1.2
        26 April 2020 at 5:44 pm

        I'm actually a bit hazy on how to embed images here.

        • weka 19.1.2.1
          26 April 2020 at 5:53 pm

          lots of them end up being too large.

        • lprent 19.1.2.2
          26 April 2020 at 6:09 pm

          Use the “Source” to shift to HTML.
          <img href=”URL” width=”550px” />

          Change the URL to whatever the image address is. Don’t abuse it or have extra large images. I tend to turn off the ability to use it rather than educating people.

          • McFlock 19.1.2.2.1
            26 April 2020 at 6:14 pm

            ah old school, cheers

            Any chance of a UI button like the hyperlink & blockquotes?

            • lprent 19.1.2.2.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 7:13 pm

              Nope. I'm using a standard tool for the comment editor, and that isn't an option.

              Plus I think I am going to have to look at images and video. I just realised that those are why the jump to a comment #comment-xxxxxxx isn't working too well. Need to look at changing the timing of the jump to the anchor.

  20. Treetop 20
    26 April 2020 at 3:37 pm

    That is so funny.

  21. Muttonbird 21
    26 April 2020 at 7:54 pm

    Farrar watch:

    Farrar, in his delivery of National Party strategy, has started posting Australian stats state by state in comparison to New Zealand. He even made his own table (he provided no link).

    He’s a stats man and his is a deliberate attack on New Zealand to make us look worse. Miraculously, it places NZ near the bottom of a table of ten!

    But the real cynical bit was his use of "ANZAC" in the title of the post.

    This politicises our pandemic response using the sacrifices of Kiwi servicemen and their families. The same servicemen who went to war to end persecution of Jews in Europe.

    It is a new low from Farrar and completely tone deaf.

    He and his paymasters seriously need to take a look at themselves and start reading the room.

    • Incognito 21.1
      26 April 2020 at 8:20 pm

      Don’t worry about DPF, he’s not worth it. Today he also agreed with the pseudo-academic Steve Elers. It has got nothing to do with stats but everything with (media and data) manipulation and anti-government propaganda.

      • Muttonbird 21.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 8:30 pm

        But I do.

        John Key personally thanked Farrar in a victory speech. This shows how important to the National Party his polling and blogging is.

        Journalists read Kiwiblog for leads and opinion. I think it's really important to push back when he makes a blunder as I believe he has done here. The push back might not rate any column inches but at least it gets the journalists thinking.

        I also like to call out his hypocrisy whenever it occurs, which is quite a lot. Farrar hates nothing more than the questioning of his integrity.

        • Incognito 21.1.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 9:12 pm

          I cannot see any analysis or opinion from the OP himself. The wee ranking table is nothing much and includes one oddity, which is the inclusion of Australia-overall in the ranking. I think DPF used it as a ‘fuse’ to light the commentariat with, which seems to have worked well. Only a fool would have taken that table one step further but DPF hadn’t – the KB commentariat did.

          • Muttonbird 21.1.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 9:20 pm

            Farrar's posting is never innocent or by accident.

            It serves as an extension of Curia's focus groups. He needs not provide analysis or opinion because his opinion is implicit when viewed alongside the rest of his posting and opinion.

            Farrar is an extension of the National Party and the dragging down of New Zealand's Covid-19 response is a part of both their strategies.

            Let's not be naive about that.

    • solkta 21.2
      26 April 2020 at 8:37 pm

      The same servicemen who went to war to end persecution of Jews in Europe.

      You do know that is not why we went to war eh. Just saying.

      • In Vino 21.2.1
        26 April 2020 at 8:48 pm

        Agree. Not attacking Muttonbird – our men went to war because they were told and agreed that Nazis were not nice at the time.

        Only after the war were most of our soldiers aware of persecution of Jews.

        More a technicality than a major disagreement.

        • solkta 21.2.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 9:19 pm

          As a country we went to war because Germany invaded Poland and so we followed Britain in declaring war. Most men went because they were conscripted.

      • Muttonbird 21.2.2
        26 April 2020 at 9:06 pm

        Kristallnacht:

        Kristallnacht or the Night of Broken Glass, also called the November Pogrom, was a pogrom against Jews carried out by SA paramilitary forces and civilians throughout Nazi Germany on 9–10 November 1938.

        Pogrom:

        A pogrom is a violent riot aimed at the massacre or persecution of an ethnic or religious group, particularly one aimed at Jews.

        It's wrong to say New Zealand and Australian servicemen were ignorant of the plight of Jews in Europe under Nazi rule.

        • solkta 21.2.2.1
          26 April 2020 at 9:29 pm

          I didn't say this, did you mean to reply to In Vino?

        • In Vino 21.2.2.2
          27 April 2020 at 10:51 am

          Sorry, Muttonbird, but I suspect that the majority of our soldiers would have had little idea of what Kristalnacht was. My father was in the second intake of NZIEF, and never mentioned it. I don't believe that such events got huge coverage here: only a small minority would be likely to be aware. The Poles also held big pogroms against the Jews – did we hear of them?

          • Muttonbird 21.2.2.2.1
            27 April 2020 at 11:23 am

            Fact remains NZ servicemen and their families made huge sacrifices to defeat Germany and its allies in WWI and the Germany and its allies in WWII which ended the persecution of Jews in Europe.

            Farrar knows this but cynically used the term ANZAC for political gain. If he'd used the ANZAC spirit in a post about NZ/AUS unity fighting Covid-19 that might be different but his motivation is to undermine NZ's pandemic response in an effort to weaken the Labour-led government.

    • Alice Tectonite 21.3
      27 April 2020 at 8:49 am

      PDF is using NZ confirmed plus probable compared to confirmed cases only for Australia (they don't record probable cases).

      Either he is spectacularly ignorant about stats & data (unlikely given his job) or has deliberately inflated NZ's total to make the government look bad.

  22. Stunned Mullet 22
    26 April 2020 at 8:08 pm

    I popped over for a look – I think you're seeing things that aren't there.

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/04/latest_anzac_covid_stats.html

    • Muttonbird 22.1
      26 April 2020 at 8:22 pm

      I think you are blind to it.

      For instance, does the title of the post diminishing New Zealand's Covid-19 record use 'ANZAC', the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps?

      It's not enough to say ANZAC is a de-facto term for 'Australasian'. The correct term for that is 'Australasian'.

      ANZAC refers to the day of remembrance which Farrar has highjacked for political purposes.

      Disgraceful.

      • In Vino 22.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 8:55 pm

        Since I agreed with Solkta, I feel bound to agree with Muttonbird here. Farrar is a propagandist, and this is the low stuff he does.

  23. Fireblade 23
    26 April 2020 at 8:30 pm

    The NZ Sikh community has fed 15,000 families in just the past fortnight.

    "People from any ethnicity, any religion are welcome. We are all one and in this difficult time we are all New Zealanders. We should all stand with the wider community," says Daljit Singh.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/04/sikh-community-feeds-15k-families-over-past-fortnight.html

  24. Eco Maori 24
    27 April 2020 at 6:28 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Level 3 tomorrow cool.

    That's was the question.

    At least our lock down was not as strict as that.

    Ka kite Ano

  25. Eco Maori 25
    27 April 2020 at 6:53 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    No fast Kai for me but I see Burger King is running got a Email reka Te dubble whopper.

    It is good that our homeless people have rooms to stay in now.

    Ka kite Ano

  26. Eco Maori 26
    28 April 2020 at 8:49 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    I think what the travel restrictions are to try to minimise your travel that minimise the risk of catching or spreading the virus.

    There you go travelling for mahi stay in your region.

    Let's all try to have a positive attitude after all we are lucky to be living in the Ion age.

    Looks like most people on the Show will be indulging in a wee while.

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco Maori 27
    28 April 2020 at 6:29 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    The tradies back to mahi.

    Its good to see the government helping regional economy's get up and running.

    Ka kite Ano.

  28. Eco Maori 28
    28 April 2020 at 6:51 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    There you go anyone can end up under the bridge.

    Queuing for hours is not fast Kai it only takes 15 minutes to cook a quick kia stuff waiting hours.

    I agree looking after the environment and low income whanau is needed and will boost the economy.

    Good to see how the virus is affecting other indigenous cultures around the world.

    Ka kite Ano.