Open mike 26/05/2022

102 comments on “Open mike 26/05/2022 ”

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1. Ed 1

   26 May 2022 at 6:57 am

   Mike Smith and Matt Robson make comments that will be discomforting to the armchair warriors on the Standard.

   ’Smith fears New Zealand could now find itself "on the wrong side of history" by helping prolong a conflict in the interests of waning US hegemony while risking its own interests in the Asia-Pacific region, and increasing the risks of a nuclear war.’

   ’Former minister in Helen Clark's Labour government, Matt Robson, echoed his concerns, and called for an informed debate in Parliament over the country's increasing involvement in the conflict.’

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/467866/nz-entering-ukraine-conflict-at-whim-of-govt-former-labour-politicians
   • Jenny how to get there 1.1

     26 May 2022 at 7:21 am

     Matt Robson doubles down on his support for unjust wars.

     The evidence is that Putin wanted to take over Ukraine, and has used missiles, artillery and aerial bombardment to smash any resistance, turning towns and cities to rubble and killing many civilians in the process.

     Matt Robson is a big supporter of unjust wars, willing to destroy his own political party to involve New Zealand in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. The cost of Matt Robson's treachery is 10 NZDF soldiers lives, and drawing us into committing war crimes to perpetuate that war and occupation. History shows that the war in Afghanistan was an cruel and unjust war, that achieved nothing except, leaving that country devastated and starving, its infrastructure ruined and its government accounts seized by the American aggressor.
     By betraying his own party majority democratic decision not to back this war.
     Matt Robson has blood on his hands.
     It should be of little surprise to most on the Left that Matt supports the bloody invasion of Ukraine.
     • Incognito 1.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 10:00 am

       Did you experience a short-circuit in your brain this morning listening to RNZ? You probably wouldn’t be the only one here on TS.

       Where does Matt Robson state or imply that he “supports the bloody invasion of Ukraine”?

       Is calling for public debate and discussion now an act of betrayal and a show of support of violence and war? If so, he clearly needs to be cancelled and silenced toot sweet.

       Next you might call him a genocidal fascist for questioning us, Aotearoa-New Zealand, for being in lockstep with the US of A, still or again.
   • Bruce 1.2

     26 May 2022 at 8:37 am

     Mike Smith may be feeling may be a little uncomfortable himself this morning as the behaviour of his heroes in China is revealed.

     https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/24/xinjiang-leak-sheds-new-light-on-chinas-uighur-camps
     • aj 1.2.1

       26 May 2022 at 10:37 am

       Dr. Adrian Zenz is a senior follow at the “Victims of Communism memorial foundation” in Washington D.C, an ideological organization funded by congress.
       Zenz is a fundamentalist Christian. Whilst religious affiliation does not discredit one, nevertheless the specific nature of his beliefs put him on the most extreme right of the American evangelical wing. This individual is being used to ferment a global narrative concerning China, with total silence or background information offered on what he actually believes in.

       Amongst these, Zenz states that all “other belief systems” to Christianity are “ultimately inspired by Satan” and that “those who reject faith in Jesus will be sentenced to eternal punishment”

       Looks like I’m in for eternal punishment then.

       https://chollima.org/who-is-adrian-zenz-the-christian-fundamentalist-leading-the-global-xinjiang-narrative/

       The truth is that Xinjiang allegations are always:

       1) coordinated
       2) deliberately released at strategic moments in time
       3) are used to advance specific policy based goals

       And each new wave *always* begins with the coincidental discovery of newly found documents which are then analyzed by Adrian Zenz.

       https://twitter.com/Tom_Fowdy/status/1528990169356853248
       • In Vino 1.2.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 4:20 pm

         Cheer up aj – you will not be alone in eternal punishment.

         We should be able to do rotating shifts of wailing in anguish.
         • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 4:54 pm

           Zactly.
     • aom 1.2.2

       26 May 2022 at 12:32 pm

       A countervailing report: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-05-25/China-U-S-covers-own-lies-with-another-over-Xinjiang-related-issues-1akhKRuSzRe/index.html.

       Of course, either report could be based on fabricated information but interesting that so much evidence should appear just when Bachelet, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, is being put under US led pressure to abandon an investigative trip to Xinjiang.

       "The U.S. side called Bachelet's visit a mistake, saying the U.S. has "no expectation that the PRC (People's Republic of China) will grant the necessary access required to conduct a complete, unmanipulated assessment of the human rights environment in Xinjiang."

       Of course, the 1,690,000 prison population sounds pretty horrific even if excluding an alleged 1 million political prisoners, in a population of 1.4 billion. However, China is only second to the US which has 2,068,800 prisoners for a population of less than 350 million. How many there could be regarded as political prisoners?

       It might pay to avoid a rush to judgement until the UN report is submitted by Michelle Bachelet before making a judgement on the 'new' evidence from a US-based academic Adrian Zenz. There s a history of fabricating evidence for political purposes.
   • Joe90 1.3

     26 May 2022 at 8:56 am

     Yourself, Smith, and Matt "RT" Robson. Running dogs for the genocidal, imperialist thugs who'll think little of orphaning children as they erase Ukrainian identity.

     //

     https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1528949603797815297

     https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1529469489665949696
   • Populuxe1 1.4

     26 May 2022 at 9:38 am

     And yet I'm not remotely discomforted. Odd that.
2. Stephen D 2

   26 May 2022 at 9:23 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/300597540/china-wants-10-pacific-nations-to-endorse-sweeping-regional-agreement

   There will be much huffing and puffing regarding this move by China.

   ISTM they want want 3 things. To have more votes in the UN to block any potential moves by Taiwan for recognition. To be able to spy more easily on the US, Australia, France and us. And fish, fish, fish. Tuna stocks will be wiped out.

   s
3. mikesh 3

   26 May 2022 at 9:43 am

   I see that even Henry Kissenger is now advocating that Ukraine surrender (in effect), and yield territory to Russia.

   “I hope the Ukrainians will match the heroism they have shown with wisdom,” he said, adding with his famous sense of realpolitik that the proper role for the country is to be a neutral buffer state rather than the frontier of Europe.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300597650/ukraine-war-brings-an-unusual-moral-edge-to-the-world-economic-forum
   • aj 3.1

     26 May 2022 at 10:41 am

     I never thought I'd say this. US has gone so full blown warmongering over the last 2 decades that Henry Kissinger now sounds like a pacifist and peace lover.
     • Populuxe1 3.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 4:10 pm

       Or, Occam's Razor here, Kissinger is still an evil, venal little man who gets paid a lot of money to advise Putin and you're an apologist for a genocidal imperialist klepto-oligarch.
       • In Vino 3.1.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 4:24 pm

         I think Occam's Razor is getting stretched rather thin.
         • Populuxe1 3.1.1.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 4:26 pm

           Kissinger is a known quantity
           • In Vino 3.1.1.1.1.1

             26 May 2022 at 5:10 pm

             Your opinion.. but my 'rather thin' statement relates to the rest of your leaps of reasoning.
             • Populuxe1 …

               26 May 2022 at 6:17 pm

               Okay apparatchik
               • In Vino …

                 26 May 2022 at 7:16 pm

                 Jawohl, Herr Obersturmbandführer.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   26 May 2022 at 7:58 pm

                   Even the Nazis were shocked by Katyn
                   • In Vino …

                     26 May 2022 at 8:22 pm

                     They made a profession of being shocked by Katyn. It suited them at the time..
                   • joe90 …

                     26 May 2022 at 8:40 pm

                     Even the Nazis were shocked by Katyn

                     The statement could've been released last week.

                     In response to the German scoop, on 15 April 1943, in full indignation at Goebbels’ slander, the Moscow radio released a statement by the Sovinformburo news agency, placing the blame on the Nazis and declaring punishment for the crime committed by "German fascist killers". The first key paragraph alone contained the main theses on the German responsibility, and, in consequence, on the German provocation aimed at the USSR:

                     "Goebbels’ slanderers have been disseminating the inventions of mass execution of Polish officers by the Soviet authorities in the Smolensk region for the last two or three days, as if they had taken place in the spring of 1940. German fascist thugs are not retreating in this new monstrous malarkey of their most villainous and vile lie, with the help of which they are trying to hide the incredible crimes committed, as it is clear now, by themselves"

                     [iii].

                     https://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/4020,The-Katyn-lie-Its-rise-and-duration.html
   • joe90 3.2

     26 May 2022 at 11:11 am

     Imagine a world where Kissinger did stay put.

     https://twitter.com/OxanaShevel/status/1529569279506530304
     • mikesh 3.2.1

       26 May 2022 at 9:13 pm

       Zelenskyy's reliance on ad hominem arguments suggests he doesn't have a credible argument to offer.
       • joe90 3.2.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 9:22 pm

         Credible arguments to counter the reckonings of the warmonger responsible for the dropping of half a million tons of bombs on Cambodia alone, killing at least 100,000 civilians?

         Do fuck off.
       • Populuxe1 3.2.1.2

         27 May 2022 at 12:11 am

         3,091,000 war deaths in Vietnam between 1955–75
4. pat 4

   26 May 2022 at 9:52 am

   Think we are going fossil free (even net) by 2050?…..

   https://thegreatsimplification.libsyn.com/dr-simon-michaux-minerals-blindness
   • left for dead 4.1

     27 May 2022 at 8:27 am

     Ah,been looking for you Pat,that is a great link,which I have spread all over. Thanks. Can you do a post on this ?
     • pat 4.1.1

       27 May 2022 at 8:54 am

       It is indeed an informative link and expands on the views of the likes of Kevin Anderson…another who understands the difficulties (and constraint of time)….it is well worth the hour plus to listen (or google Simon Michaux, if you prefer to read, though hes an entertaining speaker)

       Im happy to continue providing links as I come across them but am unlikely to author a post for a couple of reasons…the theme is contrary to the accepted narrative here and my writing abilities would not do it service.
       • left for dead 4.1.1.1

         27 May 2022 at 9:09 am

         Ok. I've listened twice and urge all to at least have a listen,we can't stay in our silo's.Have a good day folks.
5. Adrian Thornton 5

   26 May 2022 at 10:20 am

   So it turns out that Hillary Clinton started a disinformation campaign that turned into a fully fledged bat shit crazy conspiracy…. all Western "Liberal" media brought into it and perpetuated it mindlessly and endlessly for four long years…will she suffer consequences?….will the Liberal media be held to account?….yeah Right, disseminating propaganda and lies for power is their job, just look at the war in Ukraine now…more War propaganda delivered without question…as usual.

   I wonder if even one of the many Russiagaters here on The Standard will offer any sort of apology for all the smears and attacks directed at myself and others over this issue?…yeah Right…no, as we can all see they have just mindlessly and seamlessly moved on to parrot and defend the very next piece of propaganda and war mongering bullshit that has been feed to them…you would think there would be a little self reflection after being humiliated so publicly…but it turns out these people seem to have about as much humility as they do for capacity critical thinking…ie;zero..nothing…zilch.

   Hillary Clinton Did It
   "Her 2016 campaign manager says she approved a plan to plant a false Russia claim with a reporter"

   "The Russia-Trump collusion narrative of 2016 and beyond was a dirty trick for the ages, and now we know it came from the top—candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton"

   "In short, the Clinton campaign created the Trump-Alfa allegation, fed it to a credulous press that failed to confirm the allegations but ran with them anyway, then promoted the story as if it was legitimate news. The campaign also delivered the claims to the FBI, giving journalists another excuse to portray the accusations as serious and perhaps true"

   "Most of the press will ignore this news, but the Russia-Trump narrative that Mrs. Clinton sanctioned did enormous harm to the country. It disgraced the FBI, humiliated the press, and sent the country on a three-year investigation to nowhere"

   https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-did-it-robby-mook-michael-sussmann-donald-trump-russia-collusion-alfa-bank-11653084709
   • Francesca 5.1

     26 May 2022 at 10:33 am

     Oh Goodness me . who to believe anymore when even the Dept of Homeland Security has become a dupe of Putin's propaganda.

     https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/24/american-fighters-ukraine-white-supremacists-00034860

     “Ukrainian nationalist groups including the Azo[v] Movement are actively recruiting racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist-white supremacists (RMVE-WS) to join various neo-Nazi volunteer battalions in the war against Russia,” the report said.
     • Populuxe1 5.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 4:12 pm

       So they're recruiting white-supremacists to fight white Russians? Seems legit.
       • In Vino 5.1.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 7:29 pm

         You do know historically who the White Russians were?
         • Populuxe1 5.1.1.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 7:56 pm

           Maybe your understanding of Russian history being stuck at the revolution is your problem?
           • In Vino 5.1.1.1.1.1

             26 May 2022 at 8:28 pm

             No, not stuck. Just glad to know that you have such knowledge.
   • Incognito 5.2

     26 May 2022 at 10:36 am

     Pity you had to draw the attention to yourself in the 2nd paragraph, which is a distraction and diversion from the rest of the comment. People don’t like to listen to a broken record and tend to respond the same way each time they hear the same scratchy noise.
     • Francesca 5.2.1

       26 May 2022 at 10:59 am

       Well it is the major contradiction of the US defence of Ukraine
       • Incognito 5.2.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 11:01 am

         So?
     • Adrian Thornton 5.2.2

       26 May 2022 at 10:59 am

       Why shouldn't I draw attention to myself and the other small minority of commenters like Morrissey who were attacked relentlessly over years over our stand on this major conspiracy…why shouldn't we feel like we should be offered an apology by those who regularly directed ad hominem and vile comments at us?

       But I of course know full well this will never happen, for the reasons I have already stated in my earlier comment.

       By the way the only broken record I can hear going around and around infinitum, is your boring and insistent critiquing of my comments.
       • Incognito 5.2.2.1

         26 May 2022 at 11:12 am

         And here we have it again, it’s all about you, you, you!!

         Why do you do it if you know you won’t get your sorry apology??

         Why do you do it if you know I or another commenter might critique it??

         Can’t you handle critique, which is not even all that robust??

         Tells us, Adrian, why do you comment here with your passive-aggressive comments and then moan when you get the expected response??
         • Francesca 5.2.2.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 12:55 pm

           oh dear, I'm sorry I thought you were having a go at me, therefore the reply which comes across as a non sequitur.
           • Incognito 5.2.2.1.1.1

             26 May 2022 at 4:14 pm

             It happens 🙂
         • Adrian Thornton 5.2.2.1.2

           26 May 2022 at 1:22 pm

           I can handle critique just fine, which I have proven regularly on this site…and quite a bit from you alone I might add…however to my original point, all I have said is now that a whole lot of people have been proven to have been wrong in their belief and defense of the Trump/Russiagate conspiracy…and myself and others have been proven to have been on the right side of history in pushing back against this mainstream misinformation…so how about they at the very least acknowledge the fact that they were wrong.

           You do understand that are the only one here who actually boringly critiques the vibe of my comments all the time..and when I say boring I really mean that…often when you comment to me, I don't even bother reading them because you say basically the same shit to me all the fucking time..so why waste my time reading the same boring critique time and time again?
           • Incognito 5.2.2.1.2.1

             26 May 2022 at 3:20 pm

             however to my original point, all I have said is now that a whole lot of people have been proven to have been wrong in their belief and defense of the Trump/Russiagate conspiracy…and myself and others have been proven to have been on the right side of history in pushing back against this mainstream misinformation…so how about they at the very least acknowledge the fact that they were wrong.

             Who’s the boring one here? Who’s playing the broken violin again? Do you want a knighthood for services to music?
           • roblogic 5.2.2.1.2.2

             27 May 2022 at 12:48 am

             Umm, there’s quite a lot to “disprove”

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_between_Trump_associates_and_Russian_officials

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Counsel_investigation_(2017–2019)

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections
6. Blade 6

   26 May 2022 at 10:23 am

   When Will Smith slapped Chris Rock’s face at the Oscars, it reminded some folk of another incident that happened during the 1973 Oscars. It involved John Wayne wanting to attack Sacheen Littlefeather. Luckily security held Wayne back.

   John Wayne had strong views on race. I remember reading his article in Playboy about black people.

   Pity (or luckily?) social media wasn't around in those days. Waynes' career would have been over along with Clint Eastwoods.

   https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-john-wayne-1973-oscars-attack-clint-eastwood-mocking-sacheen-littlefeather-explained-will-smith-x-chris-rock-slap-sparks-debate
   • gsays 6.1

     26 May 2022 at 11:03 am

     You read a Playboy article. Got any bridges for sale?
     • Blade 6.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 11:17 am

       The advertisement for Playboy was '' What sort of man reads Playboy.''

       I don't think you would fit the demographic, Gsays.
       • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 2:00 pm

         Actually in the 1960's Playboy was well known for it's serious articles as well as some legendary interviews…

         https://www.bustle.com/articles/116648-10-iconic-playboy-articles-everyone-should-know-because-you-actually-can-read-it-just-for-the
         • Blade 6.1.1.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 6:19 pm

           Correct. And Penthouse, too. When we talk of articles and interviews, we were talking about page after page of top shelf journalism.
   • Puckish Rogue 6.2

     26 May 2022 at 2:50 pm

     Marlon Brando was nuts and doesn't really have a moral leg to stand on:

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Tango_in_Paris#Rape_scene
7. Stephen D 7

   26 May 2022 at 2:52 pm

   Bryce Edwards has some sensible comments to make on electoral law reform.

   https://democracyproject.nz/2022/05/26/bryce-edwards-major-shakeup-of-electoral-rules-could-be-coming/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bryce-edwards-major-shakeup-of-electoral-rules-could-be-coming

   The idea of reducing the threshold, and getting rid of the overhang certainly has merit. Maybe 3%. Not sure about reducing the voting age. The 16 year olds I know would make it interesting.
   I would like to see all funding done by an independent body, with donations banned altogether.

   A 4 year term makes more sense in terms of a actual governance. And Maori should be able to move from roll to roll whenever.
   • gsays 7.1

     26 May 2022 at 6:13 pm

     In a similar vein, I understand that people who watch Shortland Street religiously are allowed to vote too.
     • Anne 7.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 6:19 pm

       ??
       • gsays 7.1.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 7:08 pm

         Yep, oops, I left out;

         "Not sure about reducing the voting age. The 16 year olds I know would make it interesting."
8. Puckish Rogue 8

   26 May 2022 at 3:21 pm

   Pop culture update time including extremely mild spoilers that don't give away the plot (such as it is for this movie)

   Top Gun: Maverick

   This movie is fantastic entertainment, I rate it slightly higher than the original.

   Its not perfect, the shoe horned in romance didn't really do it for me (or my wife for that matter) and it felt at times as if there was a previous movie we haven't watched but for all that this is top tier movie entertainment.

   I've always been a fan of Tom Cruise because you can tell he loves making movies and he gives 110% for every role but for this he has surpassed himself, you can tell he really wanted this to work and it does, it really does.

   There is no star today (sorry Brad Pitt) that can get close to Tom Cruise when hes on and he may have single-handedly shown to Hollywood that we, the paying public, don't care about representation (plenty of people of colour and woman as pilots in this movie) as long as the characters are more than one dimensional cut outs (see also Aliens)

   I would go so far as to say that this is Tom Cruises Magnum Opus, not saying its his best movie (I have a soft spot for Born On The Fourth Of July) but this is everything that encapsulates Tom Cruises career, turned up to eleven

   You want charming Tom, funny Tom, driven Tom, doubting Thomas (yeah yeah I know), Tom who even though hes 59 can easily pass for late 30s (especially with his shirt off), introspective Tom, take charge Tom, running Tom (of course) then this is it, this is everything

   If this is the start of Tom Cruises with drawl from more physical movies (Mission Impossible aside) then this is one helluva swan song

   Yes its unashamedly nostalgic, as soon as the movie starts and the music starts playing and the you watch the credits you'll know what I mean and yes its unashamedly patriotic but it works

   Grab a large popcorn and fizzy drink (go to the toilet first as its over 2 hours), sit back, let the sound wash over you, put your brain in neutral and prepare to be transported back to when you were 13 years old (or however old you were when you first watched Top Gun)

   Hollywood please take not of this, Tom can't carry the whole industry forever
9. Incognito 9

   26 May 2022 at 3:30 pm

   Experts such as Children's Commissioner Judge Frances Eivers say an increase in young people behind the wheel in ram raids is being created by families living in a "total state of hopelessness" and social issues need to be addressed.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/467885/police-minister-announces-government-s-crime-prevention-package

   Yeah, nah. Not what the hardliners want to hear; too complex, too much nuance, too cuddly, too woke.
   • gsays 9.1

     26 May 2022 at 6:37 pm

     Thanks for the links, Incognito.

     While the government reaction is framed as tough on crime, it reeks of an informal subsidy to insurance companies. When this initiative was first proposed, a week or so ago, my reckons were to make it available to retailers who do not sell ciggies. Bearing in mind we are aiming for Smoke-Free in 30 months.

     As the Children's Commissioner points out, poverty, family violence, alcohol are all drivers of this behaviour. Put all the bollards up that you want, it isn't going to solve the problem.

     Sports teams and cultural groups, community organisations, gardening, volunteer work are where the answer is for building self esteem, connection and belonging, empathy and reslience. Even more so, if eating together is part of the equation.

     Maybe schools are a resource for the solution, not to dump this on teachers, they are already carrying a heavy load, but a extra curricula type thing run/funded by MSD .
     • SPC 9.1.1

       26 May 2022 at 9:03 pm

       Even before that stage the problem is disconnection.

       A few absent from schooling reaches the level required to create an underground of alienated youth

       1. via lockdowns and isolation

       2. moving from home to home because of landlord eviction (unable to pay rent or so the landlord can increase rent via taking in a new tenant)

       3. being stuck in motels, or homelessness (backyards of others in caravans etc).

       without any oversight of the children by schools. The parents may not even know the children are not going to school, or are leaving this until they can find permanent accommodation.

       They connect by their mobiles, their tech toys – which they have to pay for. Thus the need for money to maintain their lord of the flies lifestyle.
       • gsays 9.1.1.1

         27 May 2022 at 2:20 pm

         It's all so sad.

         Folk on the bottom of the heap, victims of inequality (a by-product of colonialism and neo-liberalism) and used as a political football by those near the top of the hierarchy.
   • Blade 9.2

     26 May 2022 at 6:39 pm

     More the cart before the donkey again. The money should have gone into regional policing. That said, it's better than nothing. Of course, the gangsters may start bringing steel cutters to the party. The gangs will provide what they need. However, no doubt, that will slow them down with more chances of being caught.

     The Police Minister may not realise putting in bollards is not always straight forward.

     By the time underground cables and access are checked, that 6 million may not go very far.

     https://www.bollardsusa.com/bollards-commonly-asked-questions/
     • gsays 9.2.1

       26 May 2022 at 7:02 pm

       Following your cart and donkey, with more money for police, I will suggest more, faster ambulances at the precipice base.
       • Blade 9.2.1.1

         26 May 2022 at 7:25 pm

         I'm talking about targeted spending. 6 million could start Raptor squad.

         As I tried to explain to another poster. Crime must be controlled first before we put massive resources into fighting the causes of crime. In fact we have done that in the past with minimal results

         Now, here's the good news for you, and the bad news for folk like me who are over crime. I'm not hearing the right sounds from National on crime. I'm guessing they will be as woke as the present Labour government.

         Ambulances? Take your pick under National .Mercedes makes a nice model.

         I'm wondering how many houses will be ''shot up'' tonight? Ram Raids? Murder?
         • KJT 9.2.1.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 9:17 pm

           "Crime must be controlled first before we put massive resources into fighting the causes of crime".

           A nonsensical statement. Repeating it just makes you seem even more confused than the first time you said it.

           But. Joined up thinking is not something that "tough on crime" zealots excel in.

           Which is why cynical right wing politicians, can wind you all up with bullshit to get votes.
           • Blade 9.2.1.1.1.1

             26 May 2022 at 9:53 pm

             Ok, let's make it simple for you.

             Johnny is down my street smashing letter boxes with a baseball bat. The neighbours and I come out. I call them together and say,'' Is Johnny mentally ill.?'' Someone says, '' his family life seems normal…but who knows.'' Mr Brown say's ''maybe he has issues at school?''

             In the meantime Johnny has smashed 5 more letterboxes and has started to scream at an elderly man,

             Someone suggests talking to him? By this time Johnny has pushed the old man over.

             That is not controlling crime. That is trying to find the cause of Johnny's offending before controlling Johnny's rampage.

             I should have rung the police. Come out with a weapon to defend myself if needed and told Johnny to stop.( factoring in long police attendance times). The neigbours should have done likewise. That way the old man wouldn't have been pushed over and less letterboxes would have been damaged. Johnny would have seen he's out numbered and probably moved on. He would then have been picked up by the police, and the causes of his offending addressed.

             That's about as dumb and as simple as I can make it, KJT.
             • KJT …

               26 May 2022 at 9:59 pm

               Correct.

               Dumb and simple!
               • Blade …

                 26 May 2022 at 10:05 pm

                 At least you now understand my point. No need to be nasty anymore. Now, let's hear your ideas. .
                 • KJT …

                   26 May 2022 at 10:33 pm

                   Got your point alright.

                   You only understand "Dumb and simplistic".
             • Incognito …

               26 May 2022 at 10:12 pm

               Come out with a weapon to defend myself if needed and told Johnny to stop.

               FFS! You stay inside rather than rushing out to defend your mailbox and become a target yourself. I’ve had to patch up mailboxes many times and in the end I bolted the thing so well to its post that they couldn’t smash it off (they tried hard). Next, I bought a cheap small box in a boring colour (dark green) and they left it alone, never touched it. Never thought to ring the Police for a mailbox or risk my life for it, which is something books didn’t teach me …
               • Blade …

                 26 May 2022 at 10:17 pm

                 Of course you are right. It was a dumbed down exaggerated version for KJT. I was trying to show him what I meant by controlling crime v fixing the causes of crime. And why the cart must come after the donkey. Not before.
                 • Incognito …

                   26 May 2022 at 10:26 pm

                   What you meant by “fixing the causes of crime” is being picked up by Police and taken away. That doesn’t fix anything; the mailboxes are smashed up, the old guy has been pushed over, it has all happened, which is why Police can act. Here’s the thing, they cannot act on Johnny before he goes on his rampage. Now, let this sink in and think about before your next comment.
                 • KJT …

                   26 May 2022 at 10:28 pm

                   You control crime by addressing the causes. Dimwit.

                   BTW I've already made my ideas clear. Along with a whole lot of references to approaches that have worked to "control crime", from people that have researched it and know what they are talking about. Which you obviously didn't bother to read.

                   I've read hundreds of research papers, commentaries and descriptions, of reducing crime approaches that work. None of the ones that are successful, include arming police, giving police more powers, or imprisoning more people.
                   Or, indeed, attacking someone who is obviously wound up and upset, to protect a letterbox!
                   • Blade …

                     27 May 2022 at 11:44 am

                     Maybe this post from RedLogix may be a better fit for you.

                     ''Incog – I have absolutely no problem with your sentiment here. Understanding and dealing to the underlying issues is essential to preventing a problem.

                     But equally once you have a problem – neither can you ignore the symptoms.''

                     Here's another example:

                     You have gout.

                     Symptoms. – Swollen toe, inflammation and much pain.

                     Cause – Excessive uric acid in the body. Wrong food choices.

                     Treatment: Prescribe anti-inflammatories and Prednisone to take care of the symptoms and help the body.

                     Next – treat the cause. Blood test for uric acid. Long term medication to control uric acid. Dietary help.

                     Got it?
                   • KJT …

                     27 May 2022 at 12:24 pm

                     Yep. I've got that you have absolutely no comprehension of what the people who have researched crime, and myself, are saying.
     • Incognito 9.2.2

       26 May 2022 at 7:24 pm

       Hmmm, steel cutters to cut through bollards installed to prevent ram raids … Good luck with that.

       As usual with RW hardliners, they go for simplistic solutions, simplistic criticisms, and always focus on the $$ and find fault somewhere as if to say that they’re the only smart and capable ones and the rest of us are a bunch of woke morons.
       • Blade 9.2.2.1

         26 May 2022 at 7:39 pm

         Steel Grinder may have been a better term. Not bolt cutters though. A torch would be quicker, but that requires some skill and a bulky cart.

         But all that isn't necessary. You just need something that goes between the bollards to act like a punch. You then ram the punch and achieve your goal. Trust me, master crims aren't dumb like many people think.
         • joe90 9.2.2.1.1

           26 May 2022 at 8:09 pm

           You just need something that goes between the bollards to act like a punch.

           Bollards are either cast ductile iron or concrete filled steel/SS steel, reinforced with a little rebar dropped down the guts for good measure. If you intend cutting one it's probably best you pack a lance or perhaps one of those flash harry magmafusion jobbies. Or wheel in your own lifting gear and pluck it out. A 3.5 tonner would do it.
         • Incognito 9.2.2.1.2

           26 May 2022 at 8:18 pm

           You seem to hold them in high regard and again I love your narrative, but anyway, those young people behind the wheel in ram raids are not “master crims”. You make them sound like master minds with a degree in engineering and all that effort for a pack of cigarettes?
           • Blade 9.2.2.1.2.1

             26 May 2022 at 8:53 pm

             That's not quite right. Many work for gang fences or they work off a patch ( you can buy them now within certain gangs) They are taught the basics by the gangs. Yes, educationally, they are as thick as pig shit. But life has imbued them with a cunning born of survival. I have watched them run rings around middleclass do gooders. Especially social workers.

             Have you ever wondered why some Maori kids have that intense stare? That stare picks up micro expressions that most folk don't perceive. It tells them when a blow may be coming. It tells them when someone is talking shit. It tells them who is weak willed, and who shouldn’t be messed with. They know things books can't teach you.

             ''
             • In Vino …

               26 May 2022 at 9:08 pm

               For the fist time I agree with you, Blade. I think Covid has just forced my retirement from Secondary School teaching. Good comment.
             • Incognito …

               26 May 2022 at 9:45 pm

               ‘kay, we have moved on from planning and executing targeted ram raids by master criminal minds cutting their way through enforced bollards and what-have-you to a whole set of other skills & traits.

               Young people behind the wheel in ram raids have now become “Maori kids”, have they? Of course, these tend to fare poorly in the education system and do poorly in our normative society when they come from families living in a "total state of hopelessness". That’s how some end up behind the wheel.

               However, you’re starting to move to a few important points without realising that you’ve come full-circle today (but not all in this OM) to you wanting to arm Police, Raptor force, and supporting “vigilante action” against those same kids. One size doesn’t fit all but you throw everything on one giant heap with no plan, no vision, and no hope of making any headway and having a positive impact, least of all in the medium-to-long run.
               • Blade …

                 26 May 2022 at 10:01 pm

                 I let the present crime situation speak for itself.
                 • Incognito …

                   26 May 2022 at 10:17 pm

                   I know you like to keep things simple, so let me ask you a simple question: how many voices do you hear when crime speaks to you? I don’t mean voices in your head or voices on talk-back radio, but more like directions from where the information is coming to you and different types of information.
                   • Blade …

                     27 May 2022 at 11:24 am

                     It comes mainly from attending court and speaking on behalf of young relatives ( through their lawyer) up on charges. Also speaking with their lawyers and Probies.

                     It comes from sitting amongst some of societies worst offenders in the court waiting foyer. That's an experience I wish on no one.

                     It comes from experiencing the environment these offenders come from.

                     But here's the thing. The system is so broke that everyone from the judge down, seems to be going through the motions. The lawyers are jaded, ditto the probies and the admin staff. The amount of paper work to be filled before you leave court is staggering.

                     He's a typical exchange.

                     Judge – Quite a list of offences you have here, Mr Kiwi. I see I dealt with you two years ago. Did I give you any warnings.

                     Kiwi – Yes, judge, You said If you saw me again on similar charges it would be lockup.

                     Judge – Yes, I now see that.

                     Judge – Council or prosecution, have anything to add?

                     Judge – Mr Kiwi, you have pleaded guilty to these charges. I'm putting you down for 18 months with 3 months deducted for time in custody. Stand down.

                     All this goes on like a production line…case after case after case. Hence my ideas on reform and crime.
                   • Incognito []

                     27 May 2022 at 2:35 pm

                     Didn’t know that “societies worst offenders” [sic] were sitting in the foyers among the other riffraff, but my NZ court experience is quite limited.

                     Your ideas on reform and crime are superficial and narrow, in my opinion. They’ve a limited and narrow focus on symptoms and are palliative at best, which you describe without realising it, and have no curative intent.
                   • Puckish Rogue …

                     27 May 2022 at 1:09 pm

                     You're not wrong Blade
                   • Blade …

                     27 May 2022 at 5:52 pm

                     ''Your ideas on reform and crime are superficial and narrow, in my opinion.''

                     My ideas for controlling crime are very narrow and focused. The objective is simple. Where crime happens stomp on it. Apprehend, harass, jail and create fear among the criminal community.

                     ''They’ve a limited and narrow focus on symptoms and are palliative at best, which you describe without realising it, and have no curative intent.''

                     Now for one curative part of my plan. It should be obvious to all who have thought about crime that it involves the following government departments in some regard: Police, Justice, Winz and Education. All of these organisations are not functioning correctly for a variety of reasons. For example:

                     1- I heard the other day only 52%? of school age children are attending school.

                     2- All those kids caught by police in the act of ram raiding probably won't be charged and will just be referred on. That's 150 kids every one is crowing about because they were caught.

                     3- Winz. Major reform needed. The amount of food grants I saw flashed at the supermarket, even before Covid, was staggering. Of course, the more you know the system, the more you can milk it. And to be fair, some branches are way stricter than others. But beanies soon work out where their best chances are. Of all the non-police departments, Winz needs the most attention.

                     4- Justice. When you have police and judges taking into account cultural considerations for Maori, you know we have a two-tier justice system. That has to stop. The law is the law. Apply it as such.

                     And we still aren't at the stage of helping the offender. Why? Because it would be a waste of time and effort given the laxity of the above.

                     This is how I know National will be another failure on crime. If they were going down this path, Luxon would have to address the nation before the next election in the name of fairness. Because to fix all this up would bring the country into turmoil for a time.

                     It won't happen. Get used to NZ slipping into third would status. In fact we may be there already in some regards.
                   • Incognito []

                     27 May 2022 at 8:56 pm

                     @ Blade, 5:52 pm:

                     Good, now you’re starting to show some real engagement that we can work with here.

                     1. “I heard …”; cannot work with that and is not a suggestion or proposal that’s curative.
                     2. “probably”; cannot work with assumptions and need at least some facts & stats. Not curative either, but just another reckon.
                     3. WINZ always needs work and more attention, which is a little vague. Not sure what your issue is with food grants though. What do you want to change?
                     4. Judge have discretion and I’d be genuinely surprised if sentence is more lenient solely for “cultural considerations”, whatever that means. Do you want non-discretionary sentences for all convictions?

                     Not offering any help to offenders leads to high rates of repeat offending. Rinse, spit, repeat.

                     Very different solutions though than arming Police and shooting violent aggressors in the act.
                   • SPC …

                     27 May 2022 at 6:05 pm

                     3- Winz. Major reform needed. The amount of food grants I saw flashed at the supermarket, even before Covid, was staggering. Of course, the more you know the system, the more you can milk it. And to be fair, some branches are way stricter than others. But beanies soon work out where their best chances are. Of all the non-police departments, Winz needs the most attention.

                     If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed the steady rise of rent to income of recent years. The more that is spent on rent, the less available for power (thus the power income supplement) or food – thus greater resort to food banks by working people – not just food grants by those on benefits.

                     As you are a solutions person – I guess it means lowering housing costs. Such as the government buying up 25,000 houses to end the waiting list for state housing (and placing people onto income related, rather than market rents). We can afford it, because the new debt = the new housing asset (and the income from rent covers the government debt cost).

                     And building enough new state homes that the waiting list does not recur. We need at least 100,000 for 5M (we use to have 60,000 for 3M and have little more than that now).
                   • Blade …

                     27 May 2022 at 6:17 pm

                     With respect what I mention has been going on for years under different governments. Housing won’t really help. Forcing an attitude readjustment among some Winz clients, would.
                   • SPC …

                     27 May 2022 at 6:25 pm

                     So, you admit it, your claim is that welfare (not poverty) is the source of crime.

                     And what exactly is attitude adjustment?
                   • KJT …

                     27 May 2022 at 9:25 pm

                     Blades true antisocial ACTiod colours coming to light?
             • joe90 …

               26 May 2022 at 9:59 pm

               They know things books can't teach you.

               Because racists know all about them superhuman darkies.

               /
               • Blade …

                 26 May 2022 at 10:12 pm

                 I used Maori kids as an example because… well guess why?

                 Pakeha kids brought up in a similar environment would have the same skills set. It's about survival. Culture has little to do with it.

                 ''They know things books can't teach you.''

                 Ever heard of book learning v practical experience?

                 Of course not. You are too busy making me out as racist
                 • KJT …

                   27 May 2022 at 12:31 pm

                   I've supported many of our young basement dwellers, the strays my kids adopt, in court. Youngsters in desperate need of help, not punishment.

                   And watched while the efforts of "lock me up and throw away the key" wankers, like you! gets them sent to Ngawha and become permanently lost.

                   You are a racist.

                   Fuck off.
                   • Blade …

                     27 May 2022 at 12:56 pm

                     As usual, big on commentary and spite ..short on ideas. And you have the cheek to tell me to F- off.
       • In Vino 9.2.2.2

         26 May 2022 at 7:40 pm

         Yes – they tend to be swept away by their own wishful thinking. Alf Garnets.

         "Stands to reason, dunnit?"
         • Anne 9.2.2.2.1

           26 May 2022 at 8:42 pm

           Jesus, wasn't he awful – the character that is. Wouldn't get away with it now:

           https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1278271/Alf-Garnett-s-racist-views-BBC-sitcom-Till-Death-Part.html

           Sorry, but still funny.
           • Anne 9.2.2.2.1.1

             26 May 2022 at 8:53 pm

             Seriously though:

             This is America today:

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/texas-school-shooting-horrifying-conspiracy-theories-swirl-around-carnage/KLW6Q2SMU3WRLPXEWKLEW35KWY/

             Deeply saddening.
   • RedLogix 9.3

     26 May 2022 at 8:38 pm

     Incog – I have absolutely no problem with your sentiment here. Understanding and dealing to the underlying issues is essential to preventing a problem.

     But equally once you have a problem – neither can you ignore the symptoms.
     • Incognito 9.3.1

       26 May 2022 at 8:48 pm

       Of course, you cannot ignore the symptoms. Dealing with symptoms requires a very different approach and resourcing than dealing with causes and ideally they’re integrated into a cohesive strategy and implemented with clear and firm leadership.

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