Open mike 26/06/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, June 26th, 2019 - 129 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

129 comments on “Open mike 26/06/2019”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    National's exodus shows the party lacks belief.

    Hosking cries into his cornflakes. At least, unlike stablemate David Farrar, he is honest about what's happening within the National Party.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12243914

    • Cinny 1.1

      Listening to my morning funnies….aka simons interviews…..

      By crikey he claims the nat mp's prefer not to stick around in parliament for too long.  I guess he forgot about the likes of Dr custard, big gerry david carter, etc

    • Muttonbird 1.2

      Wifey parrots Hubby. I wonder if they discuss this at 3am each morning before heading to work?

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12243919

      Wifey gets closer to the truth though:

      And the new player in the mix, recently anointed golden boy Christopher Luxon, will be taking up any aspirational airspace she may have wanted to inhabit.

       

    • sumsuch 1.3

      Strange males. Don Brash, David Farrar, the guy next to me in 4th form Maths, all the last ACT leaders, Gareth Morgan , the political reporter sweating all over the place in 84 who still plays a part. Bruce Jesson, yes, but his heart was gold. Why do they mostly (just remembered Roger Kerr ) jump up for the rich? Maths mostly leaves out the people?

      They aren't strange among males. We're all just beauteous try-ons. Or, sea-elephant beach. How near these chaps have come to overturning democracy for their psychoses.

       

  2. Sacha 2

    Looking at National's record of climate denial, which emissions would they actually cut? http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/06/which-emissions-does-national-want-to.html

    • I'm surprised journalists never pull them up on this.  National has become very polished at mealy-mouthed lip service to mitigating climate change, while at the same time special-pleading for every single industry that there's no need for this particular sector to have to do anything much just yet. And yet, no journalist asks them the obvious question: "Which industries do you believe need to reduce their carbon emissions, and how quickly?

      • Anne 2.1.1

         … no journalist asks them the obvious question: "Which industries do you believe need to reduce their carbon emissions, and how quickly?

        No, and they never will.

        Most of the journos and reporters who front the TV news and current affairs programmes are 20 to 30 somethings. It's not long since their legs were still under a school desk. They may have picked up on the theory, but have developed no instincts or true understanding of how politics works. They try to make up for it by conjuring up stupid conspiracy theories that no-one of experience would contemplate.

        They were also brought up on a diet of neoliberalism which thrives on ideology for ideology's sake and frowns upon political analysis based on reality. As a result I doubt we will ever see these journos asking the insightful questions. It happens now and then, but imo it is more by accident than design.

  3. Sacha 3

    Would a seaport at Whangarei be the logical place in NZ between China and South America? https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/392901/new-zealand-ticks-all-boxes-for-pacific-trade-and-travel-hub

  4. Sacha 4

    Bold move from Bridges on Collins. Thought the conventional wisdom was to give troublesome caucus members more to do rather than less?

  5. Muttonbird 5

    Call me a cynic but in the time it takes to set the terms of reference of the inquiries into ANZ, I'm sure there is ferocious lobbying by the bank and its defenders to exclude anything which is going to damage the bank (and importantly, John Key) too much.

    The Bernard Hickey piece yesterday covered this, the flawed idea that regulatory authorities are tasked with both censure and confidence of the banking system at the same time. They can effectively do both.

    Kate MacNamara at least seems to have her eye on things.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/113761618/anzs-100000-maintenance-bill-for-former-ceos-luxury-house

  6. Sacha 6

    What a surprise that Julie Christie's brother is a mouthy shithead. https://thespinoff.co.nz/food/25-06-2019/leo-molloy-mad-dog-of-the-viaduct/

  7. Muttonbird 7

    "You sanction the foreign minister simultaneously with a request for talks," an exasperated Rouhani said and called the sanctions "outrageous and idiotic."

    "The White House is afflicted by mental retardation and does not know what to do," Rouhani added.

    Have to say I and most of the rest of the world agree with Rouhani on this.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12243880

  8. Sacha 8

    Unsung New Zealander (and lovely man) making waves in world fisheries management: http://www.tunapacific.org/2019/06/24/advocate-for-fair-fishing-the-2019-seafood-champion-of-the-world/

  9. greywarshark 9

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018701382/what-will-auckland-s-future-workforce-look-like

    A discussion about the work of a university study looking at the future of Auckland if its BAU.   No thinking outside the charmed circle with the unsaid understanding that everyone should lie back and enjoy the machinations resulting from neolib present economics.    A scenario of Auckland going from 1 million to 2million in quite a short time.    Sigh.

  10. greywarshark 10

    Exciting joined up ideas from Victoria University political thinkers on how we can gain better politics that enable deep thought about our looming problems instead of knee jerk immediacy to ensure positive mention in the media.   From Radionz – audio later.

    Parliament must hold short-term thinking govts to account: report  

    No caption

    Photo: VNP / Phil Smith

    A new report finds governments are prone to short term thinking, and parliamentary scrutiny of government performance is limited, unsystematic and reactive. The report, by Victoria University's Institute for Governance and Policy Studies and staff of the Office of the Clerk, was based on interviews with a range of respondents, including current and former MPs, who variously described of  parliament's oversight as "broken", "weak", "inadequate" and "patchy".  Kathryn speaks with co-author and Professor of Public Policy, Jonathan Boston.

    • greywarshark 10.1

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018701385/report-parl-must-hold-short-term-thinking-govts-to-account

      Lots of meaty discussion here (or for vegetarians – crunchy celery and carrots).    Something all politicistas? will want to follow.

    • OnceWasTim 10.2

      QI @ grey. YEsterday I heard JA somewhere on the MSM say something like "things always take longer than expected"

      I immediately thought that just accepting that  (all the roadblocks and push backs – often from the supposedly apolitical public service), it might be a nice idea to try to understand why that is – especially if you're trying to be transformational.  Btw, even if you believe we have an apolitical public service (especially at senior/muddle management level fully equipped with 'the generic  manager'), there is a vested interest in preserving the status quo.

      Jonathon Boston's team have come up with some good ideas, and whilst we think that logically, there has to be an additional overhead in bureaucracy, my suspicions are that it'd bring about greater openness and accountability, and eventually those pushing an agenda (especially if their will is to preserve that status quo) might give up some of the bullshit and spin – especially amongs that  'generic managerial' class.

      What they are suggesting is more independent advice, and more parliamentary scrutiny – from memory, including the performance of that managerial class. And it'd be somewhat different from things like the old Maori Development Commissions, headed by the likes of Tau Henare, or Paul Quinn fame (the man who disenfranchised prisoners), and which regularly used to just pinch policy off Te Puni Kokiri servers and do a bit of re-wording

      And I say all that  in the belief that democracy is not meant to be easy. I reckon it might actually speed a few things up, if only because it might put a rocket up a few arses and eliminate much of the bs and spin over time with those who are invested in preservation of the status quo  

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        Hi Owt.

        I remember someone I think Education Minister and someone O'Rourke I think saying that she couldn't get in to see Ed Min until about 11 pm at night with briefings to give them because of all the other  interests traipsing in first.   So you have to have pollies who provide their own crackers, and not rely on their store being topped up by free samples from outside.

        We definitely need change and the sort of advice given when we first got offered the panacea of neolib.   That advice would act on the in-crowd like being hoist by their own petard, when it came time to deliver them the same medicine they shoved down our throats, better more effective, efficient etc.   We have been through their cycle, and like PM Jim Hacker about gongs given out as traditionally, we find that the system has been going for too long, and needs a deep dusting, especially round the pockets.

        • OnceWasTim 10.2.1.1

          Indeed.

          Even though I'm the first to commend JA and most of her enterage (with some exceptions), and some others in the coalition, we shouldn't forget that most of their adult lives have been spent knowing (more importantly, experiencing) nothing other than a neo-liberal environment. JA will go down in history as being one of NZ's better PMs.

          So whilst @Anne and others – even myself, might say much of the public service dysfunction has always existed, the advent of a neo-liberal agenda has industrialised that dysfunction and made it a fucking sight worse – in some cases, almost to the extent it has become normal practice. 

          (I've seen my share of public servants with political ambitions leaking cabinet papers; others manipulating budgets – getting people to 'split invoices'; still others with cosy little deals with "preferred suppliers"; calling in consultants on the basis of obtaining "independent advice" when those consultants are mates.)

          I'd hoped Chippie's PS reform would have been a little higher on the agenda, and when it eventually happens, let's hope there is some consideration of Boston's team's recommendations. (He's not a fool. Nor btw is one of NZ1st's former Vic Uni advisors whose name eludes me atm, even though I used to occasionally share a fag outside Von Zedlitz, ahhhhhh Jonassen! that's it).  

          I worry for 2023, and even 2020 could turn out to be a bit of a fuckup if we're not careful

           

          • OnceWasTim 10.2.1.1.1

            Oh, if that all happens, the only excuse will be that "National did it too", or even "National were the first to do it".

             

          • Anne 10.2.1.1.2

            So whilst @Anne and others – even myself, might say much of the public service dysfunction has always existed,…

            Not strictly true in my case OWT. 

            Sure there was discrimination on the basis of gender and misogynists were plentiful, but the serious stuff didn't set in until after the PS restructuring of the 80s and 90s.  

            In the case of the government department I worked for, the director and his senior team were turfed out and managers etc. brought in from outside who didn't have any knowledge of the specialist work we did. Morale plummeted and many long-serving experienced people resigned or took redundancy. The department ended up in a crisis which was resolved by turning it into an SOE and turfing out the new management. They were replaced with people who knew something about the 'product' we produced.

            • OnceWasTim 10.2.1.1.2.1

              Yep @ Anne. I think we're in agreement.

              I think you'll probably agree that PS reform is long overdue. 

              Probably even to the extent that my belief is that no government (of any stripe) can promise 'transformation' (or even kindness) until such time as there is reform.

              I could go on, as I know you could. It wouldn't really be of that much use tho'

               

              Maybe you and I should just start providing specific examples. (I don't know about you, but my bottom line was that I'd never agree to any confidentiality agreement, and I never have)

               

              • Anne

                (I don't know about you, but my bottom line was that I'd never agree to any confidentiality agreement, and I never have).

                I had a caveat placed on me by 'management' preventing me from talking to anyone. The truth of the matter: they were conducting a rort against another government department (the RNZAF) and I effectively potted them although to be honest I didn't know it at the time. It happened exactly 30 years ago. 

                Hilarious to think now that it was the Defence Force who were the unsuspecting recipients. No wonder I was targeted. 

                I'm reminded of Paula Benefit's quip "zip it sweetie". I've zipped it for 30 years.

  11. Peter 11

    Teachers agree to settlement but I need a mathematician to help me understand.  

    "The latest offer for teachers will reinstate pay parity, give a one-off payment of $1500 to full-time teachers, increase pay by an average of 3 per cent over 3 years for all teachers, lift primary teacher base salary by $14,500, and create a new top step of $90,000."

    If a teacher is on $70k and gets a 3% increase, then another 3%, then another 3% where is the magic $10,000 teachers were said to be going to get? $10,000 was the number Hipkins kept saying and the media kept repeating. Saying as if the average teacher was to get an extra 10k a year.

    I don't get 10k total for three years at 80k per annum either.   ??????

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/113780355/live-primary-teachers-union-nzei-negotiate-governments-latest-pay-offer

    • greywarshark 11.1

      This perhaps indicates a need for more and better simple mathematics in schools!    And perhaps it was a 10% increase over 3 years and it got morphed into $10,000.

      • In Vino 11.1.1

        Yes, the media obediently morphed it into $10,000. So easy for the media..

        We need journalists better at maths, and with courage to oppose right wing bosses.

        I am a secondary teacher. Our last contract expired October 2018.  Current offer gives us 3% from July. No backdating, as MPs always get (and we used to many years ago.)

        So we have lost in real terms two thirds of the inflation rate. Say 1.5%. Two thirds of that is 1%. So we get in real terms 2%, and that is trusting the official figures about inflation, cost of living, etc. But we wait another year for the next 3%. By that time we have lost another 1.5% in real, inflation-adjusted terms. Total loss of 2.5% since expiry of last contract, which is where the real pay rate should be taken from.

        In July 2020 before we get another 3% or whatever, we will be in real terms only ½% better off than we were in October 2018.  This is rubbish, and will not stem the flow of young, talented teachers out of the profession. They can earn better elsewhere for less work.

        That $10,000 the media put round is plain bullshit.

        To prevent this kind of deception, pay increases should be quoted only at yearly rate, and these deceptive 3 or 4 year agreements should be banned.

        And we should all regain backpay to expiry date of previous contract, as our cosseted MPs enjoy. 

        PS – I ignored the one-off payment to union members because a one-off 5% payment counts for little over years, and the union members have lost more than that in union fees over years.

        • Herodotus 11.1.1.1

          What has been portrayed in the media regarding the increases has played into our Ministers story of how well these greedy teachers have been paid. IMO so that teachers are forced to accept the offer. There has been managed mis information clouding the picture with step increase and increases being combined in the media releases.

          And now we have this from Hopkins "We were only willing to put that money on the table because we had an undertaking that that was the final deal, so we'll be sticking to that." Now didn't the unions have to obtain from its members acceptance of the offer ? With Principals not accepting the offer does that mean that the teachers offer has been rescinded ?

    • sue 11.2

      Primary teachers with a degree  (Q3+) as well as a diploma will go up a big step in the pay scale as well as having the pay rise.  Others with teaching degree only (Q3) or no degree (trained in earlier days in the former Teachers' Colleges Q1 & Q2)  also get big rises.  Here's a link showing the progressions:https://campaigns.nzei.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/20190614-Proposed-Terms-of-Settlement-PTCA-1.pdf

    • mpledger 11.3

      If it's a 10% increase over 3 years then that means it's a 10/3% increase per year or 1/30 increase per year 

      80000+80000*1/30 = 82666.67

      82666.67+82666.67*1/30=85422.23

      85422.23+85422.23*1/30 = 88269.64

       88269.64 + 1500 = 89769.64

      So pretty close to $10,000

      But “$10k increase” is all worked out on averages – and I would suspect that the average increase would be a lot higher than the median increase – income generally being skewed. 

      Teachers will be interested in the median increase ("what do I get") whereas govt will be interested in the average increase ("what is this policy going to cost us in total")

      • greywarshark 11.3.1

        Well I took 10% increase over 3 years to mean that by the end of three years, there would have been a 10% increase on the first, base year.  So there is room for confusion in the minds of the unknowing.

      • In Vino 11.3.2

        mpledger – As above, if it is not backdated, it is over 3.66 years for the first 3 years. That affects later years. Redo.
        And where are you allowing for inflation?

  12. Sacha 12

    New Kiwirail investment includes bigger container wagons to take on truckies: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/392851/kiwirail-spend-hundreds-of-new-locomotives-and-wagons

  13. greywarshark 13

    Microbes in the soil is where the new antibiotics are coming from!!   WtB is going to be a good person to give us the dirt on the dirt!

    Interesting discussions about the new antibiotics needed on Radionz.

    Superbugs. A doctor's fight against antibiotic-resistance

    No caption

    Photo: Wikimedia Commons

    Our anti-biotics are starting to fail us – with some predictions that in the next quarter of a century there could be more deaths from super bugs than heart disease or cancer. Dr. Matt McCarthy is an infectious disease doctor at Weill Cornell Medical College, a staff physician at New York Presbyterian Hospital, and the author of "Superbugs: The Race To Stop An Epidemic." He's also got first hand knowledge of the hoops you have to go through to get new drugs approved.  

    Audio later.

    • WeTheBleeple 13.1

      I'm more inclined to see phages (bacterial viruses) as the new big thing with regards to fighting bacterial infection.

      The dirt on dirt is that we find new things every time we look. The scope for discoveries is enormous. Likewise we've barely a clue what's in plants, fungi, animal proteins and more.

      Many fields are opening up as meta-data becomes more timely and affordable to obtain. We can take a soil sample and run a DNA test and pull out pretty much all the species therein – most of which are merely assigned numbers as we're unable to cultivate them yet. So we don't know what they do, what they make or which other species they interact with. Those species we can cultivate display remarkable variance in metabolites they produce. Some of which are antibiotics.

      New enzymes, medicines, foods and more will arise from a seemingly infinite (no they're not, we've tried that already with the planet) pool of resources. Resources that are rapidly being depleted as we continue to wage war on the natural world.

      Ethical science coupled with nature will take us far. Corporate biotech – a nightmare waiting to happen.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        Well we always seem to want to be fighting something.   That will give us something to do while we sink back to the chimpanzees hitting each other with rocks as in start of 2001 A space Odyssey.   Hal may help; to explain the real world to us seeing we can't work it out for ourselves.

        We'll be hooked up in a satellite queue in space soon, while there is space in the waiting lounge, we can put our sticky fingers into the earth and go into inner space.   Or we can sit in the eternal waiting lounge as in film Beetlejuice, which shows people looking as vacant as in the normal airport waiting area.

  14. Blazer 14

    Fran O not happy that Peters and Robertson refer to Key as 'Mr Key'…paywalled at NZH..

     

     

    Fran O'Sullivan: Winston Peters gunning for wrong ANZ scalp ''

    • Muttonbird 14.1

      I think she's getting a salary top up from one of Key's blind trusts.

      • greywarshark 14.1.1

        Hey if it can't see who it is giving money to, how can I get into the elite queue?

  15. Siobhan 15

    Israel’s UN ambassador Danny Danon…. “a national suicide of the Palestinians’ current political and cultural ethos is precisely what is needed for peace.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/opinion/palestinian-peace-bahrain-conference.html

    UCLA professor Saree Makdisitweeted, “Imagine The New York Times publishing a piece asking what’s wrong with Blacks, Latinx, Native American or any other community abjectly surrendering to racism, inequality and oppression.”

    Israel has taken the Worlds comparative silence on the mass shooting of Palestinians (amongst other things) as a sign that the time is right..lets save the bullets and the general hassel, lets just ask the Palestinians to destroy themselves.

    And, apparently, thats just fine.

     

    • Wayne 15.1

      While I agree the choice of words was poor, it is pretty obvious that the current situation is not working for the Palestinians. There was a time when Gaza had an airport and a building boom. That is now two decades in the past.

      The constant confrontation with Israel is getting Gaza nowhere. All it does is reinforce the Israeli mentality that they can't deal with the Gaza administration.

      You could say the Israelis need to take the first step. In fact it needs to be the Palestinians. Israel can act the way it does for many decades hence. It is much easier for them to cope with the current situation than it is for the Palestinians.

      The Palestinians therefore need to think of what they can do that is different from their current stance that will make a difference. It is clear they can't win a war, or increase rocket attacks, or anything of that nature. Israel will always be able to deal with that.

      So they need to think of something different. Maybe full statehood is an unattainable dream, at least for the next 2 or 3 decades. What else can they get that will appreciably improve the current situation. In short Palestine needs to find an interim path, that will last the next two or three decades.

      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        Wayne's words of wisdom.  "While I agree the choice of words was poor, it is pretty obvious that the current situation is not working for the Palestinians."

        • WeTheBleeple 15.1.1.1

          A US cheerleader. Palestine's position is untenable thanks to US arming Israel to the teeth. Also Israeli leadership condoning and even advocating violence doesn't help. The continuous land grabs, cutting off of aid… so much history. Now they've US and NZ cheerleaders. FFS.

          But, the lad threw a tennis ball. 

          BOOM!

          The bullies of the world need to back down. These so called civilised nations -disgusting shitheels.

          • Bewildered 15.1.1.1.1

            Easy way to think about Palestine and Israel, if Palestine gave up its guns and violent aspiration for destruction of Israel, thier support of undemocratic terrorist organisation as thier government there would  be peace and progress If Israel gave up its guns there  would  be a genocide massacre Simple really 

            • WeTheBleeple 15.1.1.1.1.1

              I'm simply not interested in your opinion so stop answering to my posts. Haven't you got any mates?

              • bewildered

                Still weepy bleepy I see 

                Don’t like answers to your post, simple fix Don’t post 👍

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Moderators. this is the third time I've asked bewildered to leave me alone. He merely apes what right wing media says and gets smart, it's tedious. He also likes to use my personal information against me. It is a form of cyberstalking and I'm about had enough.

                  I will stop contributing if I can't come here without this guy thinking it's fair game to try his usual nonsense on.

                  While you have a few trolls, this one has taken a shine to me.

                  See below for another example. He thinks the fact I grow kumara is hugely funny.

                  There is no option to block him.

                  • Incognito

                    Ignore commenters who (try to) wind you up. By that, I mean scroll past and literally do not read their comment.

                    You may have noticed that the same commenter pisses off many regulars here on a regular basis and often receives a vitriolic response in return.

                    We tend to follow a fairly light-handed approach to moderation here and I certainly don’t do ‘moderation requests’. TS is a place for robust debate and we want to keep it this way. As you know, my tolerance for personal insults and attacks is relatively low but sometimes even that resolves itself, until next time …

                    It does depend on which commenters are involved, context, how tired I am, and on my general mood. I don’t pretend for one second to be consistent, impartial, or correct at all times, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles here on TS and why I do prefer to warn and appeal to and for self-moderation rather than to ban 🙂

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Well he keeps following me round and after three attempts to stop it there is not a word spoken to him. So you can keep bewildered and I will go.

                      It is a pattern of harassment you should be on top of.

                      Go well, I'm out.

                    • Incognito []

                      If you provide links I can come to an informed opinion rather than taking your word for it. If it turns out there is a clear case to answer I’ll give out a warning and put them on my ‘watch list’ but unless they incite violence, make personal threats, or launch into vile personal attacks, etc., I won’t block/ban them outright.

                      It would be sad to see you leave TS but if that’s better for you then I wish you well.

                      PS the other moderators may see it differently.

                    • bewildered []

                      See my comment to muttonbird  below bleeps before you finally go 

                    • Incognito []

                      Noted, thanks.

                  • Muttonbird

                    There was a crystal clear directive from TRP a few months ago that using the personal information a commenter might have offered in the past against them, and even using a commenters past comments in arguments against them would not be tolerated.

                    I understand every moderator is different though.

                    • Incognito

                      Indeed, we all moderate in different ways, which adds an element of unpredictability and surprise, just like ‘real life’ 😉

                      Yesterday, I warned another recidivist commenter to leave things of the past in the past. It was his third and last warning.

                      We all live busy lives and cannot and do not want to micro-manage and/or police the site.

                      As you know, TRP has not been around for a while.

                    • bewildered

                      Let’s have less about Janes bbq then , a mild reference to kumera is hardly crime  of the year I go at bleep when he goes at me I don’t troll him I just don’t agree with a lot of his comments and respond in kind in my own style , massive overreaction on his his part I don’t ;  want to ruin Bleeps day and he sounds  a bit precious  I will desist responding  to him forthwith re self censorship 

            • Adrian Thornton 15.1.1.1.1.2

              @Bewildered, you are obviously a happy supporter racist apartheid of or a complete fucking moron,  probably both.

              • Bewildered

                And I love you to Adrian ❤️

                • marty mars

                  you have a sense of humor I think which make me wonder if you are a rightie or just a winder uperer – either way move on – there are plenty to tussle with rather than tussle with someone who doesn't want to be tussled with. – I meant wtb there

                  • bewildered

                    Done as per above, I am self censoring any comms with the bleep, not a peep to the bleep from now on 👍

                    • halfcrown

                      Why don't  the pair of you just agree to disagree, as I enjoy the comments from BOTH of you. Don't agree with a lot of them but it part and parcel of this site and as Iprent has expressed the site tolerates ROBUST debate.   Also it makes my old grey matter work and seek other area's for info,  more than can be said about the crap we read,  listen to called the MSM

          • Wayne 15.1.1.1.2

            You are missing the point. Israel has the power to act disproportionately. It has done so, and will continue to do so. Because of Israel’s history they are not going to stop doing that.  

            Most nations are not going to do a BDS on Israel, not with the memory of the Nazi persecution. Neither will left wing protests have any effect. In fact a number of Middle East nations are building links with Israel. The Palestinians are even loosing support of a number of Middle East governments.

            Palestine/Gaza can’t win against Israel. These days they can’t even seriously disrupt Israel.

            So if Palestine/Gaza wants to change the situation, they are the ones who have to change. Their current strategy has self evidently failed. They are going to have to stop the attacks, they are going to have to accept Israel, they are going to have to change the narrative among their people. Unless they do this, nothing will change. In fact the social and economic fabric of Gaza will continue to get worse.

            • WeTheBleeple 15.1.1.1.2.1

              Israel seems bent on genocide and the rhetoric coming out here leads me to believe no different. I met Israeli soldiers on holiday in Australia. Lovely people – till they started talking about Palestine. Then it was a seething hatred. "Vermin, scum! They need to be extinguished! Indoctrinated from birth by nasty warmongering leadership and an extremely racist state.

              While I've dealt with a lot of bullies over the years, I've never developed a tolerance for them.

              This 'solution' on offer is typical one sided garbage – here, eat some shit, now say you like it or I'll hit you.

              Palestines social and economic fabric has been unravelled for some time now. And every time they start to build a home – guess who fucking bombs it.

              Nazi Germany is not an excuse for a new wave of Nazis led by the US trying this bullshit on.

               

              • Bewildered

                And Hamas Fatah are miss understood angles Come  on weepy your smarter than basing an opinion on meeting a couple of Israelites  on holiday One bad kumera does not mean you right off the whole crop 

              • Gabby

                Tunnels and bombs bleepy, tunnels and bombs. The Arab world wants Israel gone and the Palestinian people are their weapon of choice.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  I'm not condoning either sides tendencies to violence. It is just seriously one-sided. Part of the reason the Arab world hates Israel (I think that statement's too broad btw) is the company they keep.

                  • In Vino

                    Bewilderfuddled – You get out what you put in. Israel has treated Palestinians so badly that Israel now thoroughly deserves Hamas Fatah.

            • reason 15.1.1.1.2.2

              Martin Luther Kings is still correct ,,,,, and could be talking about you  wayne

               

              ““We again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long,”

               

              It should also come as no surprise that you would hold the moral low ground in comparison to the views of Nelson Mandela

               

              In a 1999 speech: "Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights,

              Miko Peled is more informed and more honest than bewildered wayne or neo-con zionists

              So, it turns out that the creation of Israel had not, after all, been a haphazard fight in which the Arabs fled their homes due to the directives of their own leaders. It had been a systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing by the Jewish militia involving massacres, terrorism, and the wholesale looting of an entire nation.

               


               

      • Siobhan 15.1.2

        "While I agree the choice of words was poor"…this is an op-ed in the New York Times, written by the Israeli representative to the United Nations.

        His choice of words is very very well thought out, and deemed acceptable by both his Israeli Government bosses, and the Chief Editors of The New York Times.

        They all consider it acceptable to ask a Nation and a Race of people to commit 'Cultural and Political Suicide'.

        The choice of words is not 'poor'. This isn't some essay written by a 6th form social studies student.

        The Israelis want the Palestinians to Culturally and Politically Cleanse themselves.

        The Israelis have said it, they have acted on it.

        Even more scarily, they seem to have convinced people such as yourself that cultural and political cleansing is the answer.

         

        • Wayne 15.1.2.1

          I still think it is bad words, even more do now that I know they were pre planned.

          i am not suggesting poitical or cultural cleansing, just a rethink of the obviously failed current strategy. Maybe something like Hong Kong solution for the next period.

          • Professor Longhair 15.1.2.1.1

            Ex-Nasty Party cabinet minister uses the phrase "pre planned". No doubt in a National caucus meeting such illiteracy would go un-noticed and unremarked.

            • Wayne 15.1.2.1.1.1

              Yes, I know perfectly well that it was not the correct spelling. It was being done on a phone just before the door closed on a plane. No time to correct it. 

          • WeTheBleeple 15.1.2.1.2

            I do understand what your position is Wayne, I simply don't agree this is the way forward. I also don't know enough to posit an alternative…

            • Bewildered 15.1.2.1.2.1

              Vote in leaders that represent their   best interest   would be a start Not sure how you negotiate with a party who’s conviction is your destruction and once voted in democratically after Israel gave up gaza  strip have never had another election 

            • Wayne 15.1.2.1.2.2

              I think we are both in the same position about what should be done next. How do the Palestinians make meaningful progress toward their aspirations? 

              Clearly they are not making much now. Especially in Gaza where they are going backwards. Ironically in Gaza there are no Israeli settlers with designs on expropriating territory. The boundaries of Gaza are quite clear. You would think that fact would enable progress. If the Gaza/Palestine attacks stopped so would the (disproportionate) Israeli retaliation. Then the two sides could make progress. A progressive reduction of the blockade, more social and economic development. I imagine statehood would be some ways off, but as a number of self governing places show, there can be effective international recognition. Think Cook Islands, Hong Kong, Bermuda, etc.

          • McFlock 15.1.2.1.3

            Your suggestion is predicated on the assumption that the Palestinians can do anything to stop the trend towards their total expulsion by the Israelis.

            I do not believe that this is the case.

            • Bewildered 15.1.2.1.3.1

              Where they expelled from Gaza, I thought it was given up by Israel They could be living a lot better if they dropped the nonsense Note I agree their ideal in claiming lost land back is not possible but irrespective  their lives could be a  load better than now for themselves and their kids 

              • McFlock

                The Israelis are following a simple template: ghettoisation followed by encroachment (settlements nibbling away here and there, official ones create and illegal expansions ignored). The following step is the 'cleansing' part.

                You reckon the Israelis won't do the third step if the Palestinians just act like good little subjugated peons. Maybe. I'm sure some folks thought that in 1937, as well.

                • bewildered

                  Gaza was only placed under restrictions after all the nonsense started, rockets, tunnels, before that I believe flow of goods and people  was pretty open both Egypt and Israel side 

                  • lprent

                    Hmmm… I suspect that you either just a hypocrite or plain stupid.

                    So how does that explain the array of checkpoints all of the way through the West Bank? Not only near illegal settlements but also through areas that are wholly Palestinian. 

                    To me that just looks like an method of ghettoisation and a way of making sure that all commerce is stifled in the West Bank outside of the illegal settlements.

                    • Bewildered

                      What came  first the  chicken or the  egg I know there has always been check points ( I have actually been to Gaza and  through the Ramallah gate into Egypt after crossing over from Israel I lived in the Negev quite close to Gaza  strip) but the flow and  restrictions  really ramped  up after all the trouble started, Hamas take over following Israel pull out  I think you know this Lprent so  i will put your first question to me  back to you If I am  wrong I will go with B 

                    • McFlock

                      The Israeli occupation came first.

        • Professor Longhair 15.1.2.2

          Welcome to the world of New Zealand politics, Siobhan. This fellow is a notorious dissembler. You're arguing in good faith, he's still a politician.

      • Peter 1 15.1.3

        May be the money they are offering the Palestinians  they could offer to the Jews to fuck of to there natural homeland the USA there problem fixed.

        • bewildered 15.1.3.1

          Um, I think Jews have been in holy land for about 5000 years there  Pete Your letting hatred of Jews and Yanks cloud your judgment 

          • Firepig 15.1.3.1.1

            Ashkenazi Jews (i.e. those from Eastern Europe) are the modern Israelis and have not been in Palestine for 5000 years . Sephardic Jews on the other hand do have a place in Palestine, but they are also discriminated against by the majority. 

            http://theconversation.com/ashkenazic-jews-mysterious-origins-unravelled-by-scientists-thanks-to-ancient-dna-97962

            …For a more scientific take on the Jewish origin debate, recent DNA analysis of Ashkenazic Jews – a Jewish ethnic group – revealed that their maternal line is European. It has also been found that their DNA only has 3% ancient ancestry which links them with the Eastern Mediterranean (also known as the Middle East)…

            • bewildered 15.1.3.1.1.1

              Study you quote is  not conclusive 

              But some scientists question these conclusions. “While it is clear that Ashkenazi maternal ancestry includes both Levantine [Near Eastern] and European origins—the assignment of several of the major Ashkenazi lineages to pre-historic European origin in the current study is incorrect in our view,” physician-geneticists Doron Behar and Karl Skorecki of the Rambam Healthcare Campus in Israel, whose previous work indicated a Near Eastern origins to many Ashkenazi mitochondrial types, wrote in an e-mail to The Scientist. They argue that the mitochondrial DNA data used in the new study did not represent the full spectrum of mitochondrial diversity.

          • reason 15.1.3.1.2

            Its military aid from the usa which allows the extreme actions of ultra zionists to take place.

             

            https://mikopeled.com/category/gaza/

             

             

             

      • Professor Longhair 15.1.4

        National cabinet members are obliged to lie, and defend the indefensible. Some of the scoundrels continue to lie and defend the indefensible even after they slither out of office.

      • Ad 15.1.5

        Israel's commercial relationships with Saudi Arabia – on multiple fronts – is running rings around the Palestinians, so they have little motivation to solve the Palestinian problem. And the Israeli natural gas tie-up with Egypt will sustain common interest for a very long time.

        Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq are fully motivated to unite with the United States against Iran.

        I sure wouldn't wish it on the world, but there's plenty to pull strongly conservative Jewish and Islamic states into common interest against a common foe.

         

      • lprent 15.1.6

        Personally I'm a believer in the one state solution. Israel accepts Palestinians as voters with exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis including conscription into the armed forces (and get rid of the exemption for ultra-orthodox at the same time). Give everyone exactly the same rights to bear arms. See if the two groups can work out a compromise by attrition of the bigots on both sides.

        Eventually that is what will have to happen anyway unless the Israeli government wants to either really give up land or start an extermination that will result in some nukes being dropped on them.

        Because of the way that the Israeli government has abrogated their promises and agreements over the years, I don’t think that anyone would actually believe a two party state solution could work that they are involved in. Anyone who tried it would probably wind up like Rabin.

        • Wayne 15.1.6.1

          Iprent, 

          Your solution is not going to happen. Israel has found that its wall for keeping people out has been extremely effective. Israel would much prefer to have a territory that they know is theirs and that does not let anyone they don’t want to get in. Their wall does precisely that.

          So from an Israeli perspective it is far better for the Palestinians to be in Gaza and on the West Bank (or at least some of it) and not be able to come into Israel. For the last twenty years that has worked well for Israel. Why would Israel take the risk of upsetting that situation. The reality  is that they won’t.

          So it is back to a two state solution, but probably not on as good a terms as 20 years ago. Israel can put up with the current situation for many decades hence. It is not genocide, but it also not good for the Palestinians, especially those in Gaza. Will the Palestinians be able to accept that for decades or will they decide to negotiate?

          Where do you get your nukes outcome from? Handmade backpacks? Impossible to do without a source of plutonium. Which can only come from a state. And which is traceable to specific reactors. I wouldn’t want to be in the state that did that. 

          • Wayne 15.1.6.1.1

            And as a coincidence, Jared Kruschner is on Al Jarezza tonight. Being interviewed in the historic rooms in the White House.

          • lprent 15.1.6.1.2

            The problem is that because of the wall, settlements, and the way that Israel has treated Gaza and the West Bank – there is no possible settlement on anything like the current basis. It simply isn't a viable state.

            There is absolutely no way that any governing body in the occupied territories is going to accept a situation that leaves them as badly off or potentially worse off (see the recent history of Gaza) as they are now – and that is ALL that Israel now has to offer. Their internal politics, because of the weird dynamic that makes the extremes the only viable way to go, is steadily cutting off their options.

            The deteriorating status quo  that Israel can't have any kind of normal state either. They have to run a budget deficit because of running standing garrisons, effectively be propped up financially and militarily by the US, and run a siege economy always looking with askarance at their own arab citizens. At some point something won't work any more.

            Anything can happen to disrupt it. America retreats into isolationism. The extremists in Israel revert further into barbarism and start emulating nazis with death camps (the resemblance between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is getting particularly marked). There gets to be a health disaster in Gaza or the West Bank. Or just the real lunatics in Israel start killing just because they can and being cheered on by fuckwits  in government

            Hell – just the situation that I see now makes me want to sanction Israel. I'd like to kick their embassy out and ban all trade with them. After all the Palestinians are in fact their citizens. If they can’t deal with them humanely – they they’re no better than the apartheid governments that we do sanction.

  16. Exkiwiforces 16

    I’ve seen this press release from this organisation on scoop, 

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1906/S00322/rail-is-about-economics-wellbeing-environment.htm

    And I’m wondering where I can find these 6 reports to have a read over on a quiet day.

    “We could name six solid Ministry of Transport rail studies and none were reviewed.”

    I’ll be out bush  for the next 4 to 5 days and unless I’m at one of the two pubs out bush I won’t have Internet to reply to this post or follow up either.

     

    • greywarshark 16.1

      Cleangreen

      You should know about where the six MoT reports could be found on the literature?   Can you give these or a guide to what ExKiwiforces is asking>

      Do you know all about the Scoop piece linked above?   This is the last line that intrigues him.

      'We could name six solid Ministry of Transport rail studies and none were reviewed. Why?'

  17. soddenleaf 17

    Iran thinks of itself as just another state, but it isn't, it's the most religiously zealous of all nations. Religion, when core to the head of state has always led to war, as religion has no self regulator as it's leader believes they speak for God. Until Iran dislodged its holythanthou leadership it going to remain a pariah. N.Korea at least has a monarchy, Kim fires the nuke, his family goes up in smoke. A holy roller however wins martyrdom. Forget Israel, Saudi Arabia, issues with Iran, stupid deranged religion zealotry at the heart of Iran natural rub up them, for at its core Iran is a global threat to stability.

  18. Herodotus 18

    Does not a Minister from the NZ Labour party NOT understand how a union operates.

    The union could NOT made such an undertaking. It had to go to a vote by IT's members, and Chris guess what not everyone accepted your offer.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=12244135

    "We were only willing to put that money on the table because we had an undertaking that that was the final deal, so we'll be sticking to that.".

  19. In Vino 19

    True – It appears that Hipkins has little idea.

    Foolish of him to speak like that.  The PPTA vote has not come in yet. They actually gain so little in real terms that I hope they vote no.

    Hipkins now deserves it if it goes that way.

  20. greywarshark 20

    I request that the management and moderators have a meeting and look at the approach of the blog.    You have a set idea that was established a while ago, and it is time to review it. Everything changes these days, and it is necessary to look at processes and see if they are fit for purpose.

    It seemed that the blog has matured to something that aims for higher discussion while being good natured, and reflecting people's wide interests, not just political discussion leading to better policy in the country.    It is rare to get NZs discussing general important political matters, not just those personally affecting them.

    People are encouraged to come and express themselves on Open Mike.   Fine.   When they start to troll and sneer, they have had that opportunity and they should be given a warning and then told to go for a month without a lot of heart-wrenching.  Inviting people to come here but then allowing them to constantly downplay and nitpick every assay at an idea is deadening this site.   It is half full of these malicious people who want to throw the spanner in the works of those trying to build community of ideas and policy.

    If this is just a place where people can have a game of politics then I have been mistaken trying to put up information that would help to background policy issues.  I despise the trolls here, and regard some of them as perverted as bad as sexual predators.   Their object is sleazy self-satisfaction and they are here harassing good, sincere people trying to form ideas and policies that will assist all of NZ to a better level of political management.  I request that the regular supporters of this blog who want to discuss left wing politics in an analytical but supportive way are allowed to get on with it instead of being hounded by trolls, nipping at heels and messing up the conversations.

     I can't understand why the people who actually do the thinking and debating, which has settled to a reasonable level of robustness, do not have any standing in decisions about trolls.   If regular commenters complain and wish for a troll to be removed for a period or permanently, that should be the wish of the 'elders' of the site.    That would be an adult, mature example of a participatory democracy. 

    • veutoviper 20.1

      Bad timing Grey, or was it intentional on your part?

       Anyone  of a ‘thinking nature’ is currently focusing what is going on in the House tonight – far more important than your attempt to take over the TS nest as a supposed 'Greywarbler' (but in reality a 'Shining Cuckoo' in my  opinion). I have wondered when you would pitch your 'takeover' but can't really be bothered focusing on it tonight.  Remind us some other time  Those of us of a 'thinking nature' as you refer to in your endless sactimoneous sermons are otherwise engaged tonight.

      • veutoviper 20.1.1

        Oh, and by the way, that is from one woman in her 70s (me) to another in the same age bracket.  IIRC  you turned 77 in Feb 2019 a couple of years older than me, but still in the same overall age bracket.

  21. george.com 21

    A report out from BERL today laying out the benefits of Industry based bargained Collective Agreements. 
    http://www.union.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Sector-wage-bargaining-Pipiri-2019.pdf

    On Tuesday, BERL chief economist Ganesh Nana unveiled a literature review, which concluded "sector wage bargaining holds no fears for New Zealanders".

    Opponents often referred to a drop in productivity as a result of collective or sector bargaining, he said.

    The report found there was no consistent relationship evident between union activity and productivity.

    Relative economic benefits of individual contracts over collective contracts was also inconclusive.

    However, there was clear evidence a growing gap between productivity and wage increases was associated with the erosion of collective bargaining.

    That last point is the kicker. The mantra from the neo liberal right was deregulate and wages will increase. Deregulate and workers will grow richer. Deregulate and productivity will rise and that will flow down to workers via larger pay packets. Whereas the reality of the NZ economy is that a higher slice of the cake is now claimed by employers and a smaller slice by workers. The % claimed by employers has increased, the % claimed by workers decreased. The gain from productivity have disproportionately flowed to the holders of capital. 

  22. greywarshark 22

    Hello I am off to look for grandchildren.   And I do not declare my gender.   Iam sorry veutoviper but you are out of touch with what is needed to face our future.   If I don't get thrown out or any wider positive response to me I will happily leave it to you old people stuck in your groove of superiority and wisdom which is not justified as one looks around at our current state.   Pity you didn't apply that wisdom when it was needed to shift us away from the Path of Doom.   Now it seems too late for you to learn anything from anyone who you don't regard as a Suitable Authority.

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