Open mike 26/08/2019

Written By: notices and features - Date published: 7:00 am, August 26th, 2019 - 112 comments
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Sanctuary 1

26 August 2019 at 7:16 am

The asymmetric polarisation of National gathers pace, with their useful clown John Tamihere proposing a right wing wet dream of a policy platform (helpfully megaphoned by the NZ Herald* because, you know, "balance") and now Northland National MP (and sometime leader aspirant) Matt King has posted a plagarised far-right FB rant (from the NZCPR, a crackpot site used by ex-ACT wingnut Muriel Newman to post conspsiracy theories, racist screeds and far, far right libertarian ideology) where he claims climate change "is natural" and it is all a communist plot…

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/08/national-mp-argues-climate-change-is-natural-in-facebook-rant-taken-from-us-right-wing-source.html

*BTW – now it is behind the paywall, the NZ Herald seems to be a fantasy land of rubbish – far right hucksters and shysters get to write fact free rants, reckons masquerading as opinion, whatabboutism pretending to be analysis and fake news megaphoned because of "balance". it is a complete car crash and the paywall seems to have sent it's standards into a complete freefall. it is almost as if they complacently think charging for something automatically makes it better.
- Wensleydale 1.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 3:08 pm
  
  That's exactly what they think. Only grubby unwashed peasants want to consume the unhinged word-vomit of Michael Hosking and friends for free. No, anything of any worth has a price tag attached is their philosophy.
  
  Haven't read Granny Herald in two years. I no longer feel as though I'm wading through torrents of shit whenever I'm browsing the web. Hosking's drivel used to cause the vein in my temple to start throbbing like I was on the verge of a stroke.
cleangreen 2

26 August 2019 at 7:24 am

"coding error" for the latest computer hack on the 'heritage and culture' Ministry was the excuse!!!! When will our privacy be protected? Just another screw up by easily digital sites being hacked so we can now assume that nothig is safe any more now. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115260180/serious-digital-privacy-breach-at-ministry-understood-to-relate-to-tuia-250-applicants
- bwaghorn 2.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 7:45 am
  
  Or you could be angry at the crooks that accessed the info illegally
  - OnceWasTim 2.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 8:22 am
    
    0-1-0-1-1-0-1-0
    
    Who said he's not ("angry at the crooks")
- Sacha 2.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 7:45 am
  
  It's an embarrasingly basic failure you will not see often, so no cause to mistrust everything else. I'd be more worried about big foreign companies we willingly throw our information at like Google and Facebook.
  - cleangreen 2.2.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 2:33 pm
    
    Agreed with that Sacha.
    All corporations are the root of all evil.
    
    They have no soul or moral fabric.
    
    ‘Here today gone tomorrow’ is their motto.
- A 2.3
  
  26 August 2019 at 8:39 am
  
  International banking still relies on Windows Vista, or at least it still did last year. My point is that most things digital have some kind of exploit.
Sacha 3

26 August 2019 at 7:42 am

Fiscal illiterate sneaks out another fantasy mayoral policy overnight – though at least this one only requires negotiating with those affected by debt servicing, such as all other councils: https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/115269584/auckland-mayoral-race-tamihere-would-freeze-rates-and-cut-salaries

A freeze on the scale proposed by Tamihere would be unprecedented in Auckland local government, and have impacts not explained in the two-page policy document released to Stuff after midnight Sunday.

Rate revenue makes up 45 per cent of the income that flows into Auckland Council coffers each year, and dictates not only its running costs, but also how much it can borrow to fund major long-term infrastructure.
- Sacha 3.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 8:32 am
  
  And doubles down on the stupid: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12261763
  
  Tamihere told the Herald there were options to cut infrastructure spending – including the City Rail Link. He was actively considering mothballing the Grafton to Karangahape Rd section – which he did not believe would damage the project's integrity
  
  Turning a crucial two-way link into a dead end is a great summary of this guy's contempt. Maybe his campaign is just a kite-flying research project for the Nats?
  - Sanctuary 3.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 8:43 am
    
    The contracts are already signed. Another Tamihere brain fart that is simply a badly thought through fantasy.
    - Sacha 3.1.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 9:17 am
      
      It's why I am suspecting another end goal for his nonsense.
Muttonbird 4

26 August 2019 at 8:41 am

Alan Jones mural https://www.instagram.com/p/B1kNPblFJfP/

[not happy about the implied sexual violence in that, so have edited the comment. People can click through if they want to see it – weka]
- Muttonbird 4.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 10:05 am
  
  Sometimes you got to fight fire with fire…
  - weka 4.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 11:04 am
    
    I see that as more pouring petrol on the dumpster fire that is the patriarchy.
- adam 4.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 10:56 am
  
  Funny how the hero's of neo-liberalism are all crooks.
  - cleangreen 4.2.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 2:40 pm
    
    Adam;
    
    Can you name "the heros of Neo-liberalism"?
Muttonbird 5

26 August 2019 at 8:46 am

Refreshing to see fair and powerful scrutiny of New Zealand dairy industry practice on the world stage.

The contamination of Canterbury's freshwater easily ranks among the worst environmental disasters in New Zealand history.

– Mike Joy and David Larsen

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/115243716/ecologist-takes-dairy-criticism-to-world-stage

Remember who cleared out ECAN and undemocratically appointed their own board? John Key's National Party…
- marty mars 5.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 9:23 am
  
  yep and the farmers are unhappy
  
  However, farmers have hit back at their comments, saying they amounted to "economic treason".
  
  some farmers have come a long way down from caring for the land and animals – all about economics now and the dollar in their back pocket.
  
  Federated Farmers dairy chairman Chris Lewis said. "Its easy to fire off words, it's harder to get out there and do the work that we're doing. You can say whatever you want but if you're not picking up a spade to help, what are you actually contributing?"
  
  Joy disagreed that farmers were doing any meaningful work to improve freshwater quality.
  
  "I'm not going to give them credit for something they haven't done," he said. "They throw the number out there, $1 billion or whatever, saying they've spent that on cleaning up the water but that's just the cost of doing business.
  
  "It's like me saying I spent $750 having the brakes fixed on my car so you should be thankful I'm not going to crash into you."
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/115243716/ecologist-takes-dairy-criticism-to-world-stage
  
  come on farmers – you'd drop a cow for not producing anything meaningful yet what meaningful changes are you doing?
  - Muttonbird 5.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 9:25 am
    
    And what change would have occurred were it not for campaigners like Dr Joy and Mr Larsen?
    
    None!
    
    I’d also add Charlie Mitchell and hundreds of others doing the hard and unpleasant work shining light on the Nats and the dirty dairying industry.
  - vto 5.1.2
    
    26 August 2019 at 11:39 am
    
    "but if you're not picking up a spade to help, what are you actually contributing?"
    
    The Canterbury farmers were told in the early 90's that dairy intensification would lead to degraded waterways and polluted drinking water.
    
    John Key and the farmers ignored that and proceeded to shit in our water so now we have degraded waterways and polluted drinking water.
    
    What a bunch of c$&%s
    
    The above comment about "contributing" is farcical.
    - marty mars 5.1.2.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 11:47 am
      
      yep – if we turned up with a spade to help with that farmer's pollution issues he'd no doubt call the police, or send a warning shot over us for trespassing.
- phillip ure 5.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 10:02 am
  
  should we all pause for a 'john key – white-gold' memory-moment..?
Pat 6

26 August 2019 at 10:35 am

‘Muldoonism’ itself, similarly, goes a long way towards explaining the success of ‘Rogernomics’. Under Lange’s immediate predecessor, the New Zealand economy had come perilously close to collapse. An alternative strategy was required, and thanks to Treasury’s little beige book, Economic Management, it was Roger Douglas who got there firstest with the mostest. That Douglas’s opponents had no little book of their own to offer the country, lent credence to the Rogernomes’ claim that “there is no alternative”. Moreover, from the ramshackle and disaster-prone quality of the Ardern Ministry, it is clear that the (alleged) opponents of the neoliberal order within the present government have yet to produce one."

https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/101361/chris-trotter-asks-whether-jacinda-ardern%E2%80%99s-government-critical-mass-talent-or

Chris Trotters excellent piece will attract the usual knee jerk reactions but more considered thought will recognise reality….where is the plan (are they capable of formulating one)?
- Ad 6.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 11:20 am
  
  MMP was designed to kill programmatic government and was fully successful. The Big Government wand was snapped.
  
  So far this government are only unpopular with those who measure actual ministerial results. Otherwise everyone's at work.
  
  In 2020 they get to open Sky City convention centre and big Waikato motorways, plus all of downtown Auckland.
  
  In 2021 the government gets APEC, Americas Cup, and more.
  
  New Zealanders like aspirational language from their PM's, but very incremental actual change.
  
  It's just a Kiwi fact.
  - Pat 6.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 11:27 am
    
    MMP wasnt the cause of the lack of government capacity, that can be fairly laid at the feet of neoliberalism…and tinkering at the edges of the existing hands off approach will continue the lack of improvement….until it collapses in upon itself from one of the many pressing challenges.
    
    A complete abdication of responsibilty (combined with a lack of ability)….from all political parties and the public service.
    - Ad 6.1.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 1:07 pm
      
      Clark-Cullen government results showed major institutional change was possible without Muldoonist-scale plans.
      
      Also showed a well led public service delivers. Just needs to be well led.
      - Pat 6.1.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 1:26 pm
        
        I beg to differ and an examination of the past would I suggest such. When did the housing bubble begin? when was the beginning of the open boarders policy? Indicators of the lack of policy ideas that were continued by Key……In fact the only policy of significance that came in under the Clark Gov that springs to mind was Kiwisaver, everything else was a continuation of the neolib hands off approach…a frequently heard complaint, and one also levelled at this admin
        
        Pat 6.1.1.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 7:45 pm
        
        almost forgot…and when did the dairy bubble begin?
- McFlock 6.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:00 pm
  
  There are a number of problems with Trotter's piece, but the one thing he got right was that nobody at the time had a little red book with which to counter the rogernomes – and in particular to explain and avoid stagflation.
  
  The problem now is twofold:
  - Governments are no longer stable, single-party dictatorships; and
  - people have quickly forgotten how "transformative" it is for a government to even accept the systemic existence of things like child poverty or a government role in cooling down the housing market by directly involving itself in supplying new homes
  That's not to say Labour are perfect, but the ministers are more competent than the nactoids ever were. Some are more right or left wing than others, that's life. But they're all trying new things. Failure is a natural consequence of trying new things, but sooner or later these attempts lead to succes. If you want anything other than stagnation, TINA but to try.
  - Ad 6.2.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 1:09 pm
    
    Clark-Cullen coalition government delivered just fine. Coalition is not a problem.
Poission 7

26 August 2019 at 11:16 am

What that Hallam is an unscientific nut case is clearly evident.

[TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
phillip ure 8

26 August 2019 at 12:27 pm

so nz has just lined up with the environmental vandals on the planer – the bad-guys – – and voted against a u.n treaty to protect endangered species of sharks…

way-to-go..!..nz..!….eh..?

pray – tell us why..?
- phillip ure 8.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 12:38 pm
  
  is this nz first being owned by the fishing industry – again/still..?
- vto 8.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 12:38 pm
  
  they are meat-eaters mr ure
  - phillip ure 8.2.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 12:40 pm
    
    indeed..!..should i go down to the shoreline..and have a talk with them..?
- MickeyBoyle 8.3
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:37 pm
  
  Why the hell would we vote against that?
  - phillip ure 8.3.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 4:06 pm
    
    as an uneducated guess – i would say 'cos nz first insisted upon it..
    
    'cos the fishing companies who own them catch a hell of a lot of sharks..?
    
    y'know..!..follow the dollars..!
Muttonbird 9

26 August 2019 at 12:35 pm

Gee. A "regulations bonfire", eh?

Last time they did this we got leaky buildings and the Pike River disaster.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/397494/national-committing-to-regulations-bonfire-if-elected-in-2020
- arkie 9.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 2:01 pm
  
  National is committing to get rid of two regulations for every new regulation introduced
  
  Just like Trump then:
  
  “If there’s a new regulation, they have to knock out two. But it goes far beyond that, we’re cutting regulations massively for small business and for large business,” Trump said during the signing of the order, while surrounded by small-business leaders. He stressed that the new measure is meant to ease the opening and expansion of small businesses, and said that America’s small businesses “have been treated very badly” and that it was “virtually impossible to expand your existing business because of regulations.”
- Graeme 9.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 2:37 pm
  
  And this jem….
  
  .
  
  …and creating a voluntary initiative to make sure small businesses are paid on time
  
  National Party leader Simon Bridges said the party would also require all government departments and government agencies to pay their contractors on time and within 30 days.
  
  "Getting paid on time is a big issue for New Zealand small business owners, long delays in payments can inhibit their ability to invest and expand," Mr Bridges said.
  
  "In the past year, only half of all small businesses were cash flow positive in any given month."
  
  so it's "voluntary" and only applies to government agencies, who generally pay on time anyway. No mention of common practice of 90 -120 days payment that seems standard in construction and Fonterra practiced for a while. But hey, not like National is going to do anything that will hurt their mates
  - weka 9.2.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 3:16 pm
    
    I took the 'also' to mean there would be a voluntary scheme, and the mandate on govt departments.
    
    "and creating a voluntary initiative to make sure small businesses are paid on time"
    
    That doesn't even makes sense. If it's voluntary how will it make sure?
    - Graeme 9.2.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 6:50 pm
      
      As a small business owner I thought yeah, right…
      
      As will all small business owners who live hoping the money's going to be in their account on time.
      
      A stupid Clayton's policy and I hope they get taken to task over it.
weka 10

26 August 2019 at 12:37 pm

Awesome. So much to learn from the Hong Kong protest movements.

https://twitter.com/Jordan_Sather_/status/1165327628825284610
- alwyn 10.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:08 pm
  
  Your photo shows the protesters felling towers holding facial recognition cameras.
  
  There is an interesting article in a recent issue of the Economist. On page 60 of the 17 August copy of the magazine there is a report on how to fool facial recognition software. The methods involve things like wearing bright makeup, wearing clothes with semi-abstract patterns that make the facial recognition software see lots of "faces", or projecting infrared illumination onto one's face that make the software unable even to recognize that there is a face, or person, there. Other techniques readily fooled the software into thinking it was someone else altogether who was present.
  
  Maybe we can get to the stage that protesters won't have to flatten the facial recognition towers. After all, if the computer can't see you why bother? Even better of course would be if the software in Hong Kong thought that there were tens of thousands of clones of Xi Jinping protesting in the streets.
  
  I can't provide a link to the article I'm afraid. It is pay-walled for subscribers only. To read it, assuming you don't subscribe, should be possible by visiting your local Library. Most of them get the magazine.
  - Sacha 10.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 1:16 pm
    
    The HK protestors have been using lasers for ages to dazzle the cameras.
  - weka 10.1.2
    
    26 August 2019 at 1:36 pm
    
    fooling the cameras, while a good interim tactic, doesn't stop authoritarianism. That's what the protest is about.
- The Chairman 10.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:08 pm
  
  Interesting isn't it?
  
  As New Zealand inches more towards becoming like China (see links below) there is barely a murmur. Whereas, in Hong Kong people are flooding onto the streets.
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396509/privacy-commissioner-in-dark-over-advanced-cctv-plan-for-auckland
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396716/police-open-to-using-facial-recognition-from-auckland-transport-cctv-cameras
  
  It seems the majority of New Zealanders are of the belief it is being done for our safety, whereas the people of Hong Kong know differently.
- Brigid 10.3
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:27 pm
  
  This gives background information of the Hong Kong protests Weka
  
  https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/08/19/behind-a-made-for-tv-hong-kong-protest-narrative-washington-is-backing-nativism-and-mob-violence/
  
  "The protests ostensibly began in opposition to a proposed amendment to the extradition law between Hong Kong, Taiwan, mainland China, and Macau, which would have allowed Taiwanese authorities to prosecute a Hong Kong man for murdering his pregnant girlfriend and dumping her body in the bushes during a vacation to Taiwan.
  
  Highly organized networks of anti-China protesters quickly mobilized against the law, compelling Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam to withdraw the bill.
  
  But the protests continued even after the extradition law was taken off the table"
  - Brigid 10.3.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 1:40 pm
    
    This also by Pepe Escobar
    
    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/08/07/hong-kong-kashmir-a-tale-of-two-occupations/
    
    "Much to the distress of neocons and humanitarian imperialists, there won’t be a bloody mainland China crackdown on protesters in Hong Kong – a Tiananmen 2.0. Why? Because it’s not worth it.
    
    What these protests have accelerated is Beijing’s conviction that Hong Kong is not worth its trust as a key node in China’s massive integration/development project. Beijing invested no less than $18.8 billion to build the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau bridge, as part of the Greater Bay Area, to integrate Hong Kong with the mainland, not to snub it.
    
    Now a bunch of useful idiots at least has graphically proven they don’t deserve any sort of preferential treatment anymore."
    
    "The big story in Hong Kong is not even the savage, counter-productive protests (imagine if this was in France, where Macron’s army is actually maiming and even killing Gilets Jaunes/Yellow Vests). The big story is the rot consuming HSBC – which has all the makings of the new Deutsche Bank scandal.
    
    HSBC holds $2.6 trillion in assets and an intergalactic horde of cockroaches in their basement – asking serious questions about money laundering and dodgy deals operated by global turbo-capitalist elites."
    - francesca 10.3.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 2:27 pm
      
      Totally agree Brigid
      
      Here's a previous World Bank economist and his take on the Hong Kong riots.
      
      https://journal-neo.org/2019/08/25/hong-kong-and-the-audacity-of-the-united-states/
      
      French protestors have paid a higher toll, death, blindness, amputations at the hands of the French police.
      
      In comparison the Hong Kong authorities have been restrained.
      - The Chairman 10.3.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 3:53 pm
        
        Not that restrained, apparently.
        
        https://youtu.be/XrtJE7usacc
        
        francesca 10.3.1.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:16 pm
        
        Yes there was some heavy handedness before the extradition treaty was shelved, but to be fair, that was largely put down to the UK superintendents in charge. Seems the Brits cant stay out of Hong Kong
        
        I advise everyone to read more widely
        
        https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/06/article/brits-in-hk-police-played-key-crackdown-roles/
        
        francesca …
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:27 pm
        
        This is the guy who has led the "clearance" of protestors, not Chinese, but a Brit who loved the job and stayed on
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Dover
        
        marty mars …
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:31 pm
        
        wow 2 of them
        
        It has now been revealed by local papers that two Brits serving in the police were closely involved in the heavy-handed crackdown on the protesters on June 12.
        
        francesca …
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:55 pm
        
        Actually there’s 60 of them Marty
        
        And those UK expats were singled out by the protestors
        
        Seems like the Brits just can’t stop their colonialist ways
        
        https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/hong-kong-protes-expat-police-focus-protester-rage-11727706
        
        marty mars …
        
        26 August 2019 at 6:06 pm
        
        couldn't find 60 in that original link – went back and checked
        
        so you think the british not the chinese are the big players here? Are they doing it as a proxy for the US? Seems overly complicated to me but I'm here not there so I will suspend my disbelief a little more and keep looking at the links people provide
        
        thanks for your links
  - The Chairman 10.3.2
    
    26 August 2019 at 2:12 pm
  - weka 10.3.3
    
    26 August 2019 at 3:18 pm
    
    what's your thinking about what the protests are about Brigid?
    - Brigid 10.3.3.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 4:26 pm
      
      When you compare the publicity the Hong Kong protestors have been given with those in France or Honduras, I'm mightily suspicious. That the protestors wave US flags and call on Murica to save them is just a wee bit funny. No hilarious actually.
      
      Is there a country on earth that has benefited from US intervention?
      
      None that I can think of.
      
      It seems to me that, as Pepe Escobar calls them, these 'useful idiots' are not protesting for better conditions for the hoi polloi in Hong Kong but because they're paid to.
      - Psycho Milt 10.3.3.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:59 pm
        
        That the protestors wave US flags and call on Murica to save them is just a wee bit funny.
        
        It's a protest that's deliberately without leadership, as that makes it harder for the dictator's minions to decapitate the movement. Which means individuals are free to wave whatever flags they want or shout whatever slogans they want. Nothing funny about it.
        
        It seems to me that, as Pepe Escobar calls them, these 'useful idiots' are not protesting for better conditions for the hoi polloi in Hong Kong but because they're paid to.
        
        Nice tinfoil hat you have there, did you make it yourself.
        
        Brigid 10.3.3.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 6:07 pm
        
        If you chose to read more widely you'd find the protest is not without leadership.
        
        Psycho Milt …
        
        26 August 2019 at 6:35 pm
        
        And if you chose to read more widely, you wouldn't make ridiculous generalisations about the protesters waving American flags and calling on the USA to help them.
  - The Chairman 10.3.4
    
    26 August 2019 at 4:02 pm
    
    But the protests continued even after the extradition law was taken off the table
    
    Yes, and that is due to a number of reasons. One being China's failure to allow all members of the Legco (their parliament) to be voted on by the people. Largely allowing China to call the shots.
    - Brigid 10.3.4.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 4:34 pm
      
      Well of course. Since 1997 Hong Kong has been part of China. It only has limited autonomy.
      
      Why has it taken these protestors 22 years to discover China mostly calls the shots?
      - The Chairman 10.3.4.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:41 pm
        
        Because that was meant to change overtime, but so far China has failed to live up to that agreement.
        
        Moreover, China is pushing for more control such as the extradition law, which has brought this to the boiling point we are witnessing now.
        
        It’s all in the protest explained video I posted above.
      - Psycho Milt 10.3.4.1.2
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:02 pm
        
        Why has it taken these protestors 22 years to discover China mostly calls the shots?
        
        Sigh. The last uprising was put down only five years ago, so no, not 22 years. And this one, like the last one, has been prompted by the CCP's attempts to extend its ability to call the shots.
        
        marty mars 10.3.4.1.2.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:24 pm
        
        + 1 yep there is a history here that can be checked. Doesn't seem to deter fake news though.
- The Chairman 10.4
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:29 pm
  
  Hey, weka, the other day you asked if there is a compelling reason we need to be exporting so much? Here is the answer below.
  
  In order to understand the need for exports it is necessary to understand that there is no such thing as a supply of permanent money to the economy, and the vast bulk of money within the economy has its origins in loans and is represented by a matching domestic debt.
  
  When goods are exported, foreign money is brought back into the economy, but the debt behind that money remains overseas, in the country of origin. Through exporting, money that has been borrowed into existence in another country is brought into the economy free of debt.
  
  The money can easily be turned into domestic currency via the foreign exchanges. However, when goods are imported, money created in the domestic economy goes abroad, but the debt associated with that money remains in the economy.
  
  Money that was borrowed into existence in the home economy has left the country, but the debt remains.
  
  If a country exports more than it imports, there is a net gain of additional debt-free money within the national economy.
  
  https://positivemoney.org/2011/12/debt-based-monetary-system-world-debt/
  - weka 10.4.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 3:21 pm
    
    we have to keep exporting because it's the only way we can afford the amount of overseas debt we have?
    
    Why would we need to export to the degree that we do for that to be managed?
    - The Chairman 10.4.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 3:39 pm
      
      Not exactly.
      
      Countries have to export to enable them to pay off the interest on their debt based money. Just about every dollar is produced by a loan, hence without exporting (generating debt free money) there is no way to pay off the interest incurred.
      - weka 10.4.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 3:46 pm
        
        Why not? Why can't we produce wealth domestically?
        
        The Chairman 10.4.1.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:08 pm
        
        Because domestically we still rely on a debt based monetary system. That would have to change, which is what Social Credit is largely about.
        
        But bankers will never allow that to happen. So that is where stopping the need for export growth hits a dead end.
        
        Brigid …
        
        26 August 2019 at 6:11 pm
        
        "But bankers will never allow that to happen."
        
        You mean there's not been a government in living memory that has the courage to tell the bankers to get phuckt.
      - McFlock 10.4.1.1.2
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:00 pm
        
        "Debt-based money" (i.e. reserve bank bonds lent at the OCR) doesn't require overseas cash to repay.
        
        As long as the value of goods and services produced matches the money supply and its associated cost, the debt-to-GDP ratio remains constant and the RB debt is merely grease in the wheels. Like someone living off a credit card they can service monthly.
        
        The Chairman 10.4.1.1.2.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:17 pm
        
        Debt-based money" (i.e. reserve bank bonds lent at the OCR) doesn't require overseas cash to repay.
        
        No. Debt based money as in Fractional Reserve Banking, which is how 90 odd percent of our money supply is created.
        
        McFlock …
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:31 pm
        
        Meh. Same diff – still gets repaid without need for exports. Extra value created in cycle maintains debt ratio.
        
        The Chairman …
        
        26 August 2019 at 4:53 pm
        
        No, it doesn't. One party making debt based money off another party in a local economy via trade of goods and services doesn't produce any debt free money to pay off the national interest incurred from initially creating that money.
        
        Debt based money circulating in a local economy will never produce the funding to pay off the interest that local economy incurs in creating that money.
        
        McFlock …
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:16 pm
        
        The new production and money velocity (as it circulates) can devalue the existing debt. AKA inflation.
        
        The system just isn't as simple as you're making out.
        
        It's all by the by anyway – global trade is about getting people what they want for less, rather than satisfying some economic theory. Always has been. FTAs vs protectionism is largely driven by ideology,but the global trade itself goes back well before economics started its entrails-reading.
        
        The Chairman …
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:48 pm
        
        No. Increasing the debt based money supply increases debt and devalues the dollar, hence drives up inflation.
        
        Global trade and FTAs are not one and the same. FTA’s tend to allow countries to buy up other nations exporters/resources. Giving them full monetary benefit (baring local expenses, jobs, and tax if they pay them) of another nations exports/resources.
        
        Yes, there is more to international trade than merely the debt based money supply, but the debt based money supply is a driving factor for countries to continually grow their exports.
        
        McFlock …
        
        26 August 2019 at 6:45 pm
        
        Just as fractional reserve banking might be more significant in "creating" money than the government bonds used to create the reserve the banks use, the velocity (and, I suggest, distribution) of that money affects inflation more than the basic money supply. Indeed, I read once that when all is done and dusted, the difference between Keynesianism and Monetarism is justified by the weight each gives to representing the velocity of money in the system. (Of course, it's all bullshit from a prediction level – completely unrepeatable supposition).
        
        People buy shit because they have money, and other people sell shit because they want money. You might argue that global or local trade is a fractional reserve ponzi scheme, but that doesn't affect trade nearly as much as people just wanting to buy and sell shit.
        
        The Chairman …
        
        27 August 2019 at 6:07 am
        
        Inflation tends to reduce the amount of goods and services people can afford to buy while increasing the need for people to earn more.
        
        Additionally, inflation results in driving up the OCR. In turn, the interest incurred creating the money supply. Thus, the need to export more as the velocity of money within a local economy doesn't grow that economy's wealth (albeit it may bolster an individual or company's wealth).
        
        The high cost of local products drives up demand for cheaper imports, which again drives up the need for countries to export more to offset the trade imbalance and the associated (money supply) debt.
        
        Suppliers, manufactures, etc require people to buy stuff for their survival, which in turn is required for employment opportunities.
        
        Environmentally, it comes down to the whether or not the goods and service and the manner in which they are produced and supplied are environmentally friendly.
        
        In general, consumers chase bargains (especially in NZ due to our generally low incomes) which influences their purchasing choice. And those bargains tend to come from lower wage high polluting countries such as China. Again, increasing imports, thus the need (via the trade imbalance and the associated money supply debt) for us to export more.
        
        McFlock …
        
        27 August 2019 at 1:54 pm
        
        Production boosts overall wealth (without addressing the distribution therein).
        
        Monetary activity encourages increased production. More transactions being made with money between initial lending and end repayment (compared with a bond borrowed but never spent before repayment) simulates an increase in the overall money supply.
        
        Inflation increases the cost of goods (produced by whomever), but correspondingly decreases the cost of existing debt.
- joe90 10.5
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:48 pm
  
  And the tankie left gets right onto labeling the protesters as agents of foreign powers.
  
  https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1165639215998263296
  - francesca 10.5.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 2:18 pm
    
    Surprised you think that video furthers your case Joe. Peaceful protests they aint
    - joe90 10.5.1.1
      
      26 August 2019 at 5:03 pm
      
      Yeah, the temerity of standing up and demanding a democratic future in the face of an authoritarian regime.
      
      /
      - francesca 10.5.1.1.1
        
        26 August 2019 at 5:31 pm
        
        God you're naive. It was a Brit in charge who dealt out the rubber bullets and ordered the tear gas.I wonder why he decided to be so heavy handed?
        
        Gene Sharp 101
  - The Chairman 10.5.2
    
    26 August 2019 at 2:40 pm
    
    Food for thought, Joe.
    
    China Did Not Trick the US — Trade Negotiators Served Corporate Interests
    
    https://tinyurl.com/y2gagk32
    
    Hat tip to saveNZ.
  - marty mars 10.5.3
    
    26 August 2019 at 4:02 pm
    
    jeepers I didn't think people would be suckered like that – just shows I suppose – anyone can believe anything as long as it confirms their bias – sad shit really.
Sacha 11

26 August 2019 at 12:42 pm

Nats pledge wholesale removal of protections, and moar 1950s highways: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/397494/national-committing-to-regulations-bonfire-if-elected-in-2020

National's Economic Development spokesperson, Todd McClay, branded it a regulations bonfire.

…

The coalition government shifted transport infrastructure focus from roading to public transport and rail, but National would be changing the focus back to roading, it said.

"The government has stopped or postponed a dozen roading projects, which were ready to get underway, and replaced them with projects that aren't ready to go and won't be for a long time yet," transport spokesperson Chris Bishop said.

The last Nat govt had not included funding for their next batch of expensive tarmac in any Budgets, so it's simply a lie to claim that they were "ready to go".
- Sacha 11.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 12:43 pm
  
  Snap, Muttonbird.
- Barfly 11.2
  
  26 August 2019 at 1:52 pm
  
  Have the road construction companies threatened to end their ENORMOUS DONATIONS TO THE NATIONAL PARTY ?
adam 12

26 August 2019 at 2:06 pm

Cenk, knocks the nail on the head. Trump needs the 25th amendment enabled NOW!

Just so you know I think pence is worse politically, but trump is, well watch the video
marty mars 13

26 August 2019 at 4:21 pm

I think the Government should issue stronger words and actions for this atrocity happening now.

With concerns over violence in West Papua escalating, New Zealand officials appear reluctant to wade in more significantly – despite the Green Party calling for action.

As Indonesia cracks down on protests in the disputed West Papua territory, the Government has declined to condemn the violence.

Indonesia has deployed a thousand troops to the disputed territory of West Papua and shut down the internet in the region in an effort to quell protests alleging racist police violence and supporting self-determination.

The New Zealand Government has re-emphasised earlier commitments to human rights but declined to comment on the specific situation.

The latest wave of violence began after dozens of Papuan students in Surabaya were arrested by police forces while a mob allegedly called them "monkeys".

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/26/770485/government-hands-off-on-west-papua-violence#

Good work Green Party MP and human rights spokeswoman Golriz Ghahraman for trying to get some action on this.

“The most recent crackdown on indigenous West Papuans is scary given past brutality by Indonesian forces- add to that the threat of internet black out and its a recipe for grave human rights abuse. Let’s remember that it’s aim is to take away indigenous land and resource for corporate profit- as it happens around the world- divesting from timber imported from West Papua’s pristine native forests is one thing NZ must do to support this indigenous struggle.”
marty mars 14

26 August 2019 at 4:49 pm

Nice post about crasher collins and the truth from Frank Macskasy – see sidebar

National has entered into a propaganda blitz. They will use half-truths, exaggeration, out-of-context material, distortions, and outright fabrications to win next years’ election.

Whatever it takes.

They will use dog-whistles; throw ‘red-meat’ to bigots; demonise every group that their conservative base despises.

Whatever. It. Takes.

Thus is the style of election campaign strategy set from now till Election Day: Whatever it takes.

https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2019/08/24/judith-collins-foot-in-mouth-award-or-something-more-sinister/
marty mars 15

26 August 2019 at 5:21 pm

Very sad – so much pain and sorrow. What to do? Dunno – I work in prevention and really things are tough…

Chief coroner Judge Deborah Marshall has released the annual provisional suicide statistics.

They show in the year to June 30, 685 people died by suicide, 17 more than the year prior.

The rate per 100,000 increased from 13.67 to 13.93.

They also revealed the number of teenagers dying between the ages of 15 and 19 increased from 53 last year to 73.

There had also been an increase in the Māori rate – from 23 per 100,000 to 28, and an increase in the Pacific Island rate from 7.77 to 11.49.

The rate for Europeans had dropped slightly.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/397516/increase-in-suicides-for-maori-and-teens-latest-stats-show
- SHG 15.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 10:04 pm
  
  Suicide is an overwhelmingly male phenomenon. In NZ there are approximately 3 male suicide deaths for every female suicide death.
  
  Now search the media releases today for the words male, men, or boys. Betcha you won’t find a single one.
  
  Kinda hard to fix a problem when it’s politically incorrect to acknowledge that it exists.
  - marty mars 15.1.1
    
    26 August 2019 at 10:38 pm
    
    your politically incorrect line is part of the problem imo – the stats won't improve until it isn't used as a point scoring device – do you get that?
    - SHG 15.1.1.1
      
      27 August 2019 at 12:20 am
      
      Yes you’re absolutely right it’s the words we use that are the actual problem, we won’t be able to stop men from dying of suicide until we eliminate the inconvenient phrases used to describe the problem of their deaths
      
      You’re the real hero
      - marty mars 15.1.1.1.1
        
        27 August 2019 at 12:24 am
        
        not we, you – the words YOU use that is PART of the problem – try to read what I write rather than just push your lines
        
        SHG 15.1.1.1.1.1
        
        27 August 2019 at 12:29 am
        
        Why don’t you think suicide is a male problem and that boys and men deserve extra attention, funding, and support?
        
        marty mars …
        
        27 August 2019 at 8:35 am
        
        I never said that.
        
        Of course I am supportive of giving hope to men and boys who are desperate and suicidal. I support programs designed to specifically support them.
phillip ure 16

26 August 2019 at 5:44 pm

living a life of grinding poverty – with no end in sight – can lead to depression – can lead to suicide..

our gummint can fix that factor/cause..

let's watch them dance around this one..

and do s.f.a./not end poverty..

and so the nmbers will climb..

and why does david clark seemingly have no awareness of this..?

and why the fuck do journalists like lisa owen not have the nous to ask him about this..?
- Stuart Munro. 16.1
  
  26 August 2019 at 5:47 pm
  
  Not to mention that coroners are relatively reluctant to make a finding of suicide, so that the numbers are if anything understated.
Eco maori 17

27 August 2019 at 6:27 pm

Kia Ora Newshub.

I think it's cool that our Coalition government is going to control MPs pay brackets.

Whanau there you go the alcohol licensing system is corupt that is the reason why we have bottle stores in all the lower class people area.

The phenomenon of trump not attending the G7 meeting about savings our mokopuna environment is going to be positive in the end ma Te wa.

Its great that France President Macron is giving 20 million euro to fight the fires in the Amazon ignoring what the haters has to say.

They are spying on the wrong people what a waste of time and money.

Doc is doing great mahi controling Tar goats on the mountcook ranges

Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 18

27 August 2019 at 6:49 pm

Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News

Its excellent that a third person is being charged for Jasmine death. Jasmine whanau will be pleased at last they are seeing Justice.

Te Wahine is correct Maori need to have more input and learn. More about our cyber security my data is compromise every minute of the day.

I say that a community based solution for Maori mental health will help more tangata servive their mental health issues manly depression because so many people in Aotearoa look down on Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa that is not good for our tamariki wairua.

There you go Whanau national trying to use Tangata Whenua issues to undermine our human Coalition Government.

Auckland is in fashion show excellence that Maori is part of the fashion show also that sustainability is becoming a fashion trend that no one can Stop Ka pai.
Heniana Goodmen has being a great news reporter for decades Ka pai

Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 19

28 August 2019 at 8:35 am

Kia Ora The Am Show.

simon Winston Peters has achieved more positive change to our society than you could dream of achieving before he got the Gold card and other gains for OUR elderly they were struggling. You see not all elderly are wealth %90 are having to try and survive on super alone that is bugger all money to live on in the year 2019.

I backed vapouring as a tool to slow down and give up smoking especially for the elderly people who have been smoking for 40 od years they need to give up smoking for their mokopuna. Whanau another case of over exploitation by humans the Hauraki gulf mussels Fisheries over exploited next minute the fisheries calapes and has never recovered.

Useing green lipped mussel to clean up our water ways estries is a great idea my only concern is mono culture farming is not good for our wildlifes diversity so using a few other species of water filters is needed for a safe clean environment some use oysters beds to do the water filtering and to slow erosion in New York.

Ka pai Jenny you handled him well we need legislation to make sure that the content of vapour oil is safe this phenomenon gave me some conserns about vapouring

Funny Mark 146 was a good score one has to be careful what they eat. I remember watching that game to.

Jacindia Waka is sailing into the wind stured up by national and there corupt supporters the alt right who will lie and cheat to win did the informers come out of the DARK.

Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 20

28 August 2019 at 11:26 am

Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

https://youtu.be/aqCSNH5gxKY

Global warming human cause climate change is a huge threat to the future wellbeing
Eco maori 21

28 August 2019 at 6:26 pm

Kia Ora Newshub.

I agree cheap beer and alcohol is targeted at poor alcoholics that is not the way a caring society behaves.

BULLSHIT if they can't afford it they won't drink alcohol.

I think that is a awesome move vaccination in shopping mall and other places people always gather.

Mark Lundy and his lawyers are wasting New Zealand time and money.

On the way back to the bay it was raining hard cold as soon as I got over the rangers the rain stopped we could feel that it was warmer to I was thinking that the place would be bogged out with mud and had to light the fire straight away but it was clear awesome.

Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 22

28 August 2019 at 6:48 pm

Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

Condolences to Tahu potiki whanau and Iwi Ngai Tahu for their loss of A great leader.

Condolences to the other tangata whenua whanau excuses my pH I'm just learning how to use it.

Ka pai to John Kerwin for all his mahi on mental health issues he has been awesome with tangata whenua tamariki. I,, the mental health problem needs cross party tau toko.

I agree with Ming Foons opinion on the way that tangata whenua o Aotearoa has been treated by the crown he has the knowledge on tangata whenua o Aotearoa Ka pai.
Haka Bristro and the other Wahine great mahi insulating all those whare Mana Wahine I found that my Wahine staff were more reliable than male staff
Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 23

29 August 2019 at 8:36 am

Kia Ora The Am Show.

My opinion on the Napier Port float is the tangata already owned the 99 % were getting some of its capital gains and profits putting it on the stock market is just putting the port in a situation where only the wealth people 00.1% get to corner all the gains while the 99.9 % will ultimately pay more for imports and exporting.

I tau toko teaching Aotearoa factual history as most of the books paint a bad picture of tangata whenua when in fact we are quite industrial honorable humane people.

Eco Maori agree with the recational Fisher man Terakihi Hapuka Gurnard and a few other species are stuffed but the commercial Fisher men just want to keep exploiting the fish they need to be controlled no trawling in a mile from land that and heaps more reserves.

Maori and wai we'll I say we should we do own wai we will look after wai much better than the crown is has??????. For our future generations.

If the government change to a money first government like the last one the will just exploit wai and our environment not give a shit about the futures needs.

Every one knows Eco Maori views on gangs

The anti vaccination people are to easily lead down the wrong path many people display the inability to be skeptical with information they receive.

I agree our factual history needs to be taught and all tangata whenua tamariki taught Te reo. That will stop Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa Culture from dissappearing.

Ka kite Ano
Eco maori 24

29 August 2019 at 11:36 am

All the intelligence people of America Greetings Our World Famous Climate Change Champions Ka pai from Eco Maori

Greta Thunberg lands in US for climate meet

Swedish teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg has arrived in New York City, US to chants and cheers following a trans-Atlantic trip on a sailboat to attend a global warming conference.

The 16-year-old and her crew were escorted into a lower Manhattan marina about 4pm local time on Wednesday, concluding a two-week crossing from Plymouth, England.

As the boat docked, hundreds of activists welcomed her from a Hudson River promenade. Thunberg waved then was lifted onto a Dock.

"I didn't get seasick once," but she stressed that "this is not something I want everyone to do"She is set to speak at a United Nations climate summit in SeptemberThe boat carrying Thunberg, the Malizia II, encountered rough seas that slowed it down for a day. Taking turns steering the 18-metre racing yacht were yachtsman Boris Herrmann and Pierre Casiraghi, the grandson of Monaco's late Prince Rainier and American actress Grace Kelly.Inscribed on the boat's sail are the words "FridaysForFuture" under "UNITE BEHIND THE Science.

Ka kite Ano link.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/115367331/greta-thunberg-lands-in-us-for-climate-meet