Open mike 26/02/2013

169 comments on “Open mike 26/02/2013 ”

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1. Descendant Of Sssmith 1

   26 February 2013 at 6:58 am

   Maths and reporters clearly don’t mix.

   State-owned Meridian Energy yesterday announced operating profit was down 6 per cent to $277.1 million for the December half year, and the underlying bottom line profit fell 11 per cent, excluding one-offs, to $88m.

   Despite the lower underlying profit, Meridian declared a dividend of $99.8m to the Government, essentially all of its profits.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/8350206/Outcome-unclear-in-Meridians-Rio-Tinto-talks

   Essentially all of it’s profits? I would suggest that paying 11.8 million more than the profit is quite a different picture than that.

   Would be interesting to see a table of profit versus dividend for each of the SOE’s since National came in – and I don’t have any difficulty with it going back further to see if Labour behaved any differently.

   In some respects if successive governments have been taking money out of these entities left right and centre then we shouldn’t be moaning too much about having to pay for infrastructure costs. Can’t have it both ways.

   Scams like making one power company sell the other 300 million worth of equipment though and then pay that to the government are just a con. The state owns no more but now has $300 million dollars more debt which is off the governments books.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.1

     26 February 2013 at 8:39 am

     Would be interesting to see a table of profit versus dividend for each of the SOE’s since National came in – and I don’t have any difficulty with it going back further to see if Labour behaved any differently.

     No, Labour weren’t any different. Despite the massive surpluses that they ran they still pulled massive dividends from the SOEs. Either they don’t realise that that profit should be used to upgrade the infrastructure or they just don’t care. For National, I figure it’s the latter – especially as they have to cover the holes in the budget created when they cut taxes for the rich.
     • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 1.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 1:08 pm

       It’s remi niscent of the asset stripping indulged in by Brierley et al. The government has finessed this approach in business to the public’s assets that then makes the govt appear as successful financial and economy dealers.
       • aerobubble 1.1.1.1

         26 February 2013 at 3:21 pm

         Key won power on selling assets, he inherited
         solid Energy, which he planned to sell. Four?
         years on solid Energy goes bust,despite him
         endorsing lignite development, despite not
         seeing a business plan, despite his hands
         off approach to asset sales. Key doesn’t know
         how much his government will sell them for,
         oh but he loves lignite.
2. Colonial Viper 2

   26 February 2013 at 7:16 am

   Help Steve Keen complete his Minsky Project to reform University taught economics

   He’s made his initial fundraising target of US$50K but could easily use thousands more to refine the Minsky modelling system his team is developing.

   With this software, central banks and academics the world over will finally have a tool which will let them model the financial economy in a realistic way, instead of using false neoliberal models which exclude the impact of money, banks and debt in the macroeconomy.

   The sign up process to donate is a bit of a pain in the ass, but this project is so worthwhile I urge you to consider supporting it, even if you can only donate US$5 or US$20.

   To learn more about Steve Keen’s debt deflation perspective, try this:
   • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1

     26 February 2013 at 8:18 am

     A worthy cause indeed.
   • Lanthanide 2.2

     26 February 2013 at 10:30 am

     I’d be surprised if any organisation took it up by choice. The models they use are self-serving, so why would they change?
     • aerobubble 2.2.1

       26 February 2013 at 3:30 pm

       Government privatized the print press, allowing banks to increase gearing on deposits and starting the great leveraging boom. Now government globally are heavily restricting gearing and retaking the role of printer of money. National hate the idea that the peoples taxation should be used to control public money or its printing, since they made their fortune in sweet deals with government money and never understood why they got wealthy.

       The reality is that self-serving models that have made many very wealthy are false economies, since they create calls on wealth the future, planet, climate, cannot supply. So its about when change comes, and just to be difficult or because they think their self-serving model of capitalism will rebound shortly, they’re for not considering one possible change in course.

       Its all good, smile and wave, look no hands.
       • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.1

         26 February 2013 at 4:03 pm

         Well said…the financialised money flooding the world are calls on the future real wealth that the planet, the climate and that labour will never be able to supply.

         There are going to be some very disappointed wealthy people out there, the further they push things in this way.
         • aerobubble 2.2.1.1.1

           27 February 2013 at 1:18 pm

           They are desperate not to be disappointed, thus they steal off with existing wealth.
           Sell assets, lower wages, watch while prices rise and quality drops….
           The giant vacuum cleaner, formally a trickle down now a massive suction machine misappropriating wealth from the poorest, the most powerless, the least connected.
       • Rogue Trooper 2.2.1.2

         26 February 2013 at 5:12 pm

         + a big kaleidoscope
3. johnm 3

   26 February 2013 at 7:37 am

   “NHS everything for SALE; full privatisation revealed”

   The Artistic taxi driver
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t88Zr2KVwZw&list=UUGThM-ZZBba1Zl9rU-XeR-A&index=2

   The same process is intended here. assets sales and welfare state demolition as far as they can get away with it. Until we’re financial serfs in our own country. 🙁
   • higherstandard 3.1

     26 February 2013 at 8:02 am

     Absolute fucking drivel.
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 8:53 am

       Protecting the nations assets absolutely fucking drivel? Yeah, a privateer would say that.
       • chris73 acualy is Dolan 3.1.1.1

         26 February 2013 at 9:03 am

         Ok so how many assets has Labour sold vs how many assets have National partially sold
         • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1

           26 February 2013 at 9:07 am

           Do you think you are being insightful by pointing out that the Labour Party launched the neoliberal shift of public assets to the wealthy and the rich, and that it continues to refuse to reverse almost all asset sales?

           Smart man A+ for you dude
           • chris73 acualy is Dolan 3.1.1.1.1.1

             26 February 2013 at 9:34 am

             I’m pointing out that National are keeping majority ownership in the assets whereas the narrative coming from this site is that National is going to sell it all, which makes you all little scallywags

             Mind you its also not bad to point out that Labour sold over 9 billion worth of assets without saying they would whereas National said they would partially privatize assets yet in two terms still haven’t
             • felixviper …

               26 February 2013 at 10:11 am

               It’s not National or Labour who sell our stuff, it’s free-market neoliberals.

               National is full of them. In the 80s Labour was full of them. By the 5th Labour govt not so much so as they’d mostly buggered off and formed ACT.

               Still a few too many for there for my liking, and I’d have liked to have seen a lot more renationalisation from the 5th Labour govt, but that’s the right-wing revolution for you.

               But this idea you’re pushing, that the current Labour party are some sort of threat to our assets, it’s a dog. And it can only bite those who do want to sell our stuff.
               • chris73 acualy is Dolan …

                 26 February 2013 at 10:19 am

                 I don’t know, Kings been around for awhile, Mallards still there, Goffs still there and Shearer certainly has some good ideas in the area…
                 • felixviper …

                   26 February 2013 at 12:33 pm

                   King Mallard and Goff were in govt for 9 years from 1999 to 2008.

                   What did they sell?

                   What have they said they’ll sell?

                   What indication of any sort do you have that they want to sell anything?

                   Are you at all serious about this? Because I’m starting to think I’m being pranked…
                   • chris73 acualy is Dolan …

                     26 February 2013 at 12:55 pm

                     Seriously?

                     Phil Goff

                     Cabinet minister

                     Three years later, when Labour won the 1984 elections, Goff was elevated to Cabinet, becoming its youngest member. He served as Minister of Housing and Minister of Employment. After the 1987 elections, Goff dropped the Housing portfolio, but also became Minister of Youth Affairs and Minister of Tourism. Later, after a significant rearrangement of responsibilities, Goff became Minister of Education. In the disputes between Roger Douglas (the reformist Finance Minister) and other Labour MPs, Goff generally positioned himself on the side of Douglas, supporting deregulation and free trade.

                     Annette King

                     In the 1984 elections, she stood as the party’s candidate for Horowhenua, and was successful. She was re-elected in the 1987 election.

                     Trevor Mallard

                     Mallard joined the Labour Party in 1972, while still at university. He held a number of internal party positions until the election of 1984 when he was elected as the party’s Member of Parliament (MP) for Hamilton West. Although he was re-elected in the 1987 elections, he lost his seat in the election of 1990.

                     Don’t think me thank wikipedia
                   • chris73 acualy is Dolan …

                     26 February 2013 at 12:55 pm

                     Seriously?

                     Phil Goff

                     Cabinet minister

                     Three years later, when Labour won the 1984 elections, Goff was elevated to Cabinet, becoming its youngest member. He served as Minister of Housing and Minister of Employment. After the 1987 elections, Goff dropped the Housing portfolio, but also became Minister of Youth Affairs and Minister of Tourism. Later, after a significant rearrangement of responsibilities, Goff became Minister of Education. In the disputes between Roger Douglas (the reformist Finance Minister) and other Labour MPs, Goff generally positioned himself on the side of Douglas, supporting deregulation and free trade.

                     Annette King

                     In the 1984 elections, she stood as the party’s candidate for Horowhenua, and was successful. She was re-elected in the 1987 election.

                     Trevor Mallard

                     Mallard joined the Labour Party in 1972, while still at university. He held a number of internal party positions until the election of 1984 when he was elected as the party’s Member of Parliament (MP) for Hamilton West. Although he was re-elected in the 1987 elections, he lost his seat in the election of 1990.

                     Don’t thank me thank wikipedia
                   • McFlock …

                     26 February 2013 at 12:58 pm

                     yes.

                     They learned at least some lessons from the fuckup that was rogernomics – what did they sell 1999-2008?

                     Key is following 200 year old out of context principles to repeat 30 year old mistakes.
                   • felixviper …

                     26 February 2013 at 1:11 pm

                     crihs73 pls
             • Draco T Bastard …

               26 February 2013 at 10:19 am

               I’m pointing out that National are keeping majority ownership in the assets whereas the narrative coming from this site is that National is going to sell it all, which makes you all little scallywags

               I’m pretty sure that, if they thought that they could get away with it, they’d have sold the whole lot. In fact, I’m still of the opinion that they’ll sell 50% now and their next time that they’re in government they’ll sell the rest if the next left government doesn’t renationalise them.
               • chris73 acualy is Dolan …

                 26 February 2013 at 10:33 am

                 Well what you think is all well and good but we can only go what they say and on this subject National have kept their word though I would like them to speed things up a bit
                 • McFlock …

                   26 February 2013 at 12:16 pm

                   What they don’t sell, they destroy: solid energy, NZRail. Although one could argue that Hillside Workshops is an asset strip and sale, too.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   26 February 2013 at 2:34 pm

                   and on this subject National have kept their word

                   Most people wish they wouldn’t

                   Stop positioning their destruction of NZ assets as some kind of sick virtue
                 • Arfamo …

                   26 February 2013 at 3:44 pm

                   National keeping their word is not something anyone would be wise to place much reliance on. I remember thinking this when the tax cuts came and everybody wasn’t better off and gst was increased. I had a vague idea Jonkey had given people the impression he wouldn’t raise gst during the slick and devious con job that was his first election campaign. Folk here have been pointing out numerous examples of how reliable Jonkey’s word is. It’s about as reliable as his memory when he gets caught out telling porkies.
                 • Foreign Waka …

                   26 February 2013 at 9:58 pm

                   Yes, you are right – the “old” brigade that knifed Mr Lange in the back is still there. Many, like me, who remember will not vote for labour because of their nasty school yard bullying ways. However, this does not mean that one shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
                   National has so far shown the same and worse. Mrs Richardson budget comes to mind and man, was that something else. Actually, I belief NZ has never really recovered from this purist capitalist approach. To many casualties, far too many people left in he dust. What an anti social approach in a so called western democracy. So in my opinion, National with their past and recent record do not seem to have a smart and inclusive plan for the future of NZ. The only party that has no negative ballast, is conservatively positive and mindful of the social effect of their policies is currently the Green Party.
                   • Foreign Waka …

                     26 February 2013 at 10:01 pm

                     Sorry, should read:
                     this does not mean that one should throw the baby out with the bath water.
             • NoseViper (The Nose knows) …

               26 February 2013 at 1:11 pm

               c73aiD
               You are naive about business if you think that having a majority automatically means that shareholder has control of it.
         • risildo 3.1.1.1.2

           26 February 2013 at 2:29 pm

           http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/assets/saleshistory

           Go and educate yourself
           • chris73 acualy is Dolan 3.1.1.1.2.1

             26 February 2013 at 2:42 pm

             Didn’t know Warren Buffet bought some…well, well, well
       • higherstandard 3.1.1.2

         26 February 2013 at 10:37 am

         Have you watched the video link ?
     • johnm 3.1.2

       26 February 2013 at 5:37 pm

       Hi higherstandard
       You should rename yourself as deludedstandard. You haven’t a clue what’s happening in the World.
4. Skinny 4

   26 February 2013 at 7:44 am

   Looking at the new shadow Cabernet put out by Labour, I ask the question what’s in it for the Greens if a coalition Government is formed after the next election. 

   At first blush I can see the role of Transport Minister going the Greens way. A good move if this transpires as the Greens are suitably qualified both in driving a clear vision in Transport and a well credentialed  Genter to front this role. 

   What say you on this and other postings?
   • Skinny 4.1

     26 February 2013 at 6:40 pm

     * Cabinet
5. vto 5

   26 February 2013 at 8:17 am

   Chris Trotter’s piece in te paper this morning hits the nail on the head.

   New Zealand is corrupt.

   The New Zealand government is corrupt.

   The only reason we record “least corrupt country” is because we refuse to see it or acknowledge it. Because we are, in this sense, a hick town. The evidence is right there in front of us – most recently with the Skycity corruption and our PM John Key. So blatant and up front that even Key probably doesn’t recognise what he has done (Key may be sharp and witty in real life, but ffs he is one shallow arsehole). Then we could look at the Canterbury dictatorship and theft of natural resources by David Carter and others.

   David Carter is corrupt. John Key is corrupt.

   The New Zealand government is corrupt.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.1

     26 February 2013 at 9:09 am

     +1

     Took me a while to realise that but, yeah, once you start to see it becomes obvious fairly quickly.
     • aerobubble 5.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 10:13 am

       Nobody is going to go to jail for CCTV building. It should not have been built, it wasn’t inspected properly, and then to cap it off it was fully tenanted after the first 7.2? Earthquake when geologists know increase chances of aftershocks of size 6 are possible.

       Sorry, I need to get this other thing out of my head. If you shoot a person, you can’t see, whose making a noise on the behind the toilet door, maybe on the toilet, it has to be murder or insanity. I get its S.A and the endemic gun crime, and how not letting ever own a gun again (if insanity) would require bodyguards for the rest of his life – but really – why haven’t the media woken up to the reality that gun owners, their kids, kill. Roads would be safer if nobody drove, there will always be an element who do not drive safety, and an element who have accidents, gun owners will always result in increased accidental deaths, in moments of insanity, in intentional acts, so
       why should those spouses who are angry, get violent, allowed to keep their guns? Surely if any
       good can come about from the tragedy, is that when a spouse cites abuse from their partner, any\guns in the house must be handed in to Police.
   • muzza 5.2

     26 February 2013 at 10:51 am

     It runs much deeper/longer than than this govt VTO – But for those who pay attention, yes its becoming very blatant that NZ’s position as one the *perceived, least corrupt* nations, is the biggest lie attatched to NZ!
   • Rogue Trooper 5.3

     26 February 2013 at 11:41 am

     outa sight
   • yeshe 5.4

     26 February 2013 at 12:40 pm

     link pse ?
     • Puddleglum 5.4.1

       26 February 2013 at 1:34 pm

       Here you go.
6. KhandallaViper 6

   26 February 2013 at 8:25 am

   There must be something more to Shearer’s plan.

   I do not believe that he has not a a better way of using Cunliffe’s talents.

   David Shearer needs all talents available to him. Cunliffe has done suitable penance for the supposed misbehaviour. The continued sidelining is sending the wrong message to teh party and the public.
   • Dr Terry 6.1

     26 February 2013 at 11:33 am

     Shearer remains afraid of Cunliffe because he knows that he is up against a much better politician. In effect, what Shearer is so condescendingly saying now is “be a good little boy, obey your master implicitly, and one day (who knows when?) you will receive your reward”.
     • Dr Terry 6.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 11:36 am

       Sorry, I see no references to the fact that Shearer’s recent poll popularity stood at 10 re cent! I guess he hopes the new front bench will do it all for him.
     • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 6.1.2

       26 February 2013 at 11:58 am

       Doing a Blair/Gordon Brown you mean?
     • McFlock 6.1.3

       26 February 2013 at 12:18 pm

       “up against a much better politician”?

       But Cunliffe was never going to challenge Shearer’s leadership, so Shearer’s vicious treatment of Cunliffe was completely unprovoked… /sarc
       • Colonial Viper 6.1.3.1

         26 February 2013 at 1:36 pm

         Leaders who can’t handle a stable of strong horses without putting some down aren’t really leaders, are they.
         • McFlock 6.1.3.1.1

           26 February 2013 at 2:38 pm

           lol
           Oh, but Cunliffe was the picture of self-effacing nobility, wasn’t he? Never bucking or kicking out, certainly never threatening to bolt or throw the rider he was supposed to support, and yet Shearer brutally whipped him for no good reason! Terrible behaviour. /sarc

           Now he’s a “strong horse” that needed skilled “handling”. Hmmm – the metaphors do shift a bit.
           • Colonial Viper 6.1.3.1.1.1

             26 February 2013 at 2:42 pm

             Sure there’s a change of narrative, and it depends on whether Shearer is a leader and a uniter, or whether he’s an overseer and an egomaniac. I’ll give you a clue, he’s been sold to us as the former not the latter.

             So let’s fucking see it.
             • McFlock …

               26 February 2013 at 3:25 pm

               We might have done, depending on whether Cunliffe was divisive or not.
         • Rogue Trooper 6.1.3.1.2

           26 February 2013 at 5:17 pm

           the 5th labour; clean the Augean Stables
       • Foreign Waka 6.1.3.2

         26 February 2013 at 10:10 pm

         The best leaders will use people with different skills then they possess themselves. Ooops, forgot – its kindergarten time and the fight for the favorite toy continues (place in the hierarchy).
       • Olwyn 6.1.3.3

         26 February 2013 at 10:28 pm

         He certainly was not going to challenge Shearer’s leadership at the conference and we do not know whether or not he would have done so at a later date. That would have depended upon his judgement of things on a number of levels. But get this McFlock. It is not outrageous that a party leader should be challenged. This happens from time to time. Leadership of a political party is not yours by right until you decide to relinquish it.
         • Colonial Viper 6.1.3.3.1

           26 February 2013 at 10:34 pm

           Shearer should have been confident in his caucus numbers and the votes from the membership and affiliates.

           He clearly wasn’t.
         • McFlock 6.1.3.3.2

           27 February 2013 at 12:55 am

           True enough, it is not outrageous that a leader should be challenged.

           But there are ways of doing it, and other ways. For instances, spiking the keynote address at the annual conference with smug smiles and noncommittal answers as to whether the party leadership is stable, that was pretty outrageous to my mind. It was a bit like being in church while loudly planning a visit to a casino and brothel, and the relative merits and abilities of each professional. He couldn’t be a team player for even one weekend.

           I agree that the best move would have been for shearer to publicly ask caucus to kick the february vote back to the new methodology. But a straight confidence vote was equally acceptable.
           • Olwyn 6.1.3.3.2.1

             27 February 2013 at 8:17 am

             “…spiking the keynote address at the annual conference with smug smiles and noncommittal answers as to whether the party leadership is stable, that was pretty outrageous to my mind.”

             As I understand it, Cunliffe did give support of the leader at the time. he simply refused to say how he would vote in a secret ballot 4 months in advance. He kept reiterating that it was a constitutional conference, not a leadership conference. He was effectively ambushed by media friends of the present regime. His refusal to buy into that line of questioning was then interpreted as an attempt to undermine the leader. What is outrageous is the framing of all this as an attempted coup so as to disadvantage a potential and legitimate competitor.
             • McFlock …

               27 February 2013 at 8:30 am

               Watching it on telly hit me the other way. Ever hear of “damning with faint praise”? That in a nutshell. It was a party conference for fucksake. The one time of year that everybody needs to be a cheerleader to the public. And “ambushed” my arse – the definition of “ambush” is that you do’t know media will be there or asking. Again, party conference and he was the only other taker for the job.

               It might not have been an “attempted coup” at the time, but it sure was a nice way to sabotage the conference. What is so difficult about “Shearer has my full support, and the full support of caucus”? How did the other supposed challengers deal with it, robertson etc?
               • Olwyn …

                 27 February 2013 at 8:50 am

                 I think that we have our positions and can only argue in circles McFlock, because neither of us are inclined to concede much ground. However, given that it was a constitutional conference, Cunliffe could have reasonably expected leadership questions to be easily brushed aside. And I do not think he sabotaged the conference. I think that senior caucus members decided that the conference was sabotaged because things did not go their way on the leadership election front.
                 • McFlock …

                   27 February 2013 at 12:19 pm

                   Dunno about leadership opinions. But Cunliffe could have done his bit to brush aside the leadership questions. Or at least watched the news on day one, gone “oh shit” and issued an immediate clarification (even press complaint, if he was that badly misrepresented) once he saw the spin the journos were taking. Maybe arranged some buddy buddy things with shearer.

                   Most of the conference coverage was about cunliffe. He could at least have made it coverage about unity, not 3 months of internecine bickering to come. Basically, he should have done pretty much what he actually did just before the caucus confidence vote, but three months earlier.
                   • Olwyn …

                     27 February 2013 at 12:53 pm

                     He would probably agree with you, in the wisdom of hindsight. However, the media were after an A versus B story and would not have let up easily, whatever he had done.
                   • McFlock …

                     27 February 2013 at 1:17 pm

                     aye, there’s a lot of hindsight at play in the entire year long situation – I’m not sure anyone except gower has come out of it without regret. And he should have, but I don’t think he believes he crossed the line between story reporting and story influencing.
7. vto 7

   26 February 2013 at 9:49 am

   Just listening to te national radio and the issue of building upgrade to earthquake standard right across the country. (firstly, an I told you so, predicted some moons ago post-Chch). The Councils and others are bleating baaah baah it costs too much…. without really thinking. Some anecdote from the depths of real Chch experience….

   The buildings in Invercargill and Dunedin and Gore (and every single other comparable town in NZ) will collapse and kill people. Especially down south as more of them are unsupported masonry construction of a form.

   What got people in Chch (other than the 2 major flawed building collapses CTV and PGC) were firstly verandahs and facades and secondly, rest of building.

   What these Councils and building owners could should do is firstly support the verandahs. You know, those roofs that come off the buildings and extend over the footpaths. Support them, with posts or whatever. This is inexpenisve and easy. Most typical two storey old shop buildings could have this done in a weekend, it is that easy. Voila, lives saved already.

   Second, the buildings that collapsed, collapsed outwards. Picture a box and then let the sides fall outwards and down. That is what happenned. So, second job is the facade, the wall that faces the street. This killed many people, including the ones in the buses. Strengthen the facade -a bigger job but still relatively minor compard to doing the whole building. This will save the most lives.

   Third, the balance of the building. After step one in the first year, step two within five years, step three could take place in a timeframe after that.

   Supporting the verandahs and the facades will save the vast bulk of lives when an earthquake (of mag 5 only imo) strikes at our small towns. This is cheap and easy. The balance of the building can come later.

   As for paying for it – perhaps pick up on recent commentary around issuing zero-cost credit for new affordable homes to earthquake upgrade. Voila.

   This is a truth. Verandahs and facades. In my opinion building owners should do this without even being required to do so, as it is easy and inexpensive and will save the most lives. Verandahs and facades.
   • scotty 7.1

     26 February 2013 at 1:17 pm

     +1 Couldn’t agree more.
   • Colonial Viper 7.2

     26 February 2013 at 1:27 pm

     smart and focussed

     wished our pollies could be half as lucid
   • Puddleglum 7.3

     26 February 2013 at 1:39 pm

     Very good suggestion.

     In Christchurch we had six months between September and February. We didn’t do what was needed despite the graphic warning. The rest of the country has so far had a two year warning from an event that was even more graphic.

     The clock is ticking.
8. Adrian 8

   26 February 2013 at 11:09 am

   Establish a Govt Bond paying the going rate and than make that money available to owners for strengthening at 1%. Sure, it looks like a subsidy but the amount of extra tax generated ( wages, fuel, some materials, workers lunches and beers ) would easily cover the shortfall. Materials and labour costs are deductible of course but the increased value and rentals all add to the country’s wealth.
   • vto 8.1

     26 February 2013 at 11:18 am

     Adrian (assuming you are replying to post above), it is not a subsidy in the usual sense by any means. The works have a massive component of public good. Deeper analysis may reveal that the buildings will appreciate in value from their current position due to publicly funded works but that is, relatively, trifling. Or in reverse view – if the public want it done then the public have an obligation to assist in getting it done.

     It’s a bit of a mix but crying “no money” is no excuse given the myriad means of resolution available over this issue.

     … Imagine for a moment that another 7 or 8 mag quake is about to strike Southland tomorrow – what would our view then be if hundreds died, again, due to collapsed buildings? Buildings that could have been strengthened? I don’t think the public would be very happy….
     • Rogue Trooper 8.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 11:44 am

       many landlords / commercial property investors “crying no money” apparently
     • ropata 8.1.2

       26 February 2013 at 1:02 pm

       review the building stock across the entire country and dynamite any that aren’t up to code
       • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.1

         26 February 2013 at 1:33 pm

         The direct method. I like it.

         Or, just nationalise the buildings at scrap value and upgrade them to full strength, and turn them into low cost socialised apartments.
   • Draco T Bastard 8.2

     26 February 2013 at 6:19 pm

     Don’t need the government to issue bonds. Just have them create the money. In fact, the government issuing bonds just increases the rate of capital accumulation.
     • RedBaronCV 8.2.1

       26 February 2013 at 10:02 pm

       Stop building over three stories. Bexley the land sank & liquified, but central Chch is being pulled down because the higher buildings were harder hit. Economically a huge loss. I believe buildings really get moving between floors 3 and 6.
       • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.1

         26 February 2013 at 10:06 pm

         Easy to build 30 story buildings with no problems with earthquakes of course.

         NZ pioneered some of the technology

         We just wanna do everything on the cheap cutting corners.
9. geoff 9

   26 February 2013 at 11:20 am

   Mike Williams on RadioNZ says that John Armstrong is ‘the guru of political commentary in NZ’.

   Fuck off, Mike.
   • KhandallaViper 9.1

     26 February 2013 at 8:59 pm

     +1
     Mike Williams has lost the facility of self awareness.

     Sad at onlelevel, galling that he is on the payroll of the Party (Caucc) still.

     Shearer, me thinks, still uses the 90s as his reference point.
     He went away on his overseas gigs and lost touch with the changes.
     The people and reference points he uses are actually 15ish years out of touch.

     That explains to me why he thinks people like Mike Williams, Mike Smith, Tamihere, Jones, King, Mallard and Ian Fraser are current/connected/relevant.

     The 16, 17, 18, 19 years olds who will vote for the first time in 2014 must be wondering where these dinosaurs came from.
     That is why I’m unsettled by re-hiring King instead of re-instating Cunliffe, promoting Little and other fresh relevant talent.

     There is something pre Clark about the profile Shearer has created!

     Wrong direction boys and girls!
     • Colonial Viper 9.1.1

       26 February 2013 at 10:10 pm

       Indeed, it’s pretty laughable. Let’s do the Time Warp.
       • The Al1en 9.1.1.1

         26 February 2013 at 10:16 pm

         It’s not just a jump to the left.
         More like a step to the right.
     • geoff 9.1.2

       26 February 2013 at 10:24 pm

       Yeah the horrible thing is that mumblefuck and his careerist cohort could well lose the election for us. But we’re not meant to say anything because that might make him look bad. As if he needed our help!
       • Colonial Viper 9.1.2.1

         26 February 2013 at 10:26 pm

         He can’t lose the election “for us” if he’s not actually acting on our behalf.
10. Dr Terry 10

    26 February 2013 at 11:39 am

    The real guru should be the ever-persevering John Minto, but I fear he is hated for his honesty.
11. Rogue Trooper 11

    26 February 2013 at 11:57 am

    good old Ak aye; a brighter future eh?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10867719

    the fish are escaping upstream to cooler, clearer water from the warm, salty Lake Ellesmere;
    a goldfish in the brine?
    Kia kaha Jack Makuku (ahhh, the T.A courthouse…) ftp (feed the people)

    a quote from a local- “land of the long black retribution”.-Pat Magill

    W.A bracing for a Rusty nailing at 250km/h while Ben Barba’s personal life (and challenges) are thrown to the Dogs.

    sadly, The Private Lives of Medieval Kings from their Illuminated Manuscripts (some In Bruge) has concluded. Libraries give us power.

    anyway “The greatest good you can do for another person is not just show them your riches-but reveal to them their own.” -Disraeli.

    13:22: A poor mans field may produce abundant food, yet injustice sweeps it away
    or, an oreo,
    13:17: A wicked messenger falls into trouble Rumplestiltskin, yet a trustworthy envoy brings healing.
12. geoff 12

    26 February 2013 at 12:09 pm

    John Key is a cunt.
    • McFlock 12.1

      26 February 2013 at 12:22 pm

      nah, if he’s a bodily organ he’s an arsehole.
      • geoff 12.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 1:03 pm

        Used as a disparaging term for a person one dislikes or finds extremely disagreeable.
        
        This is the meaning I intended.
        • McFlock 12.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 1:17 pm

          Freud would write a book about it. Probably did.

          Personally, I think you malign one of the most agreeable bits of anatomy around.
          • geoff 12.1.1.1.1

            26 February 2013 at 2:10 pm

            You’re a dick.
            • McFlock 12.1.1.1.1.1

              26 February 2013 at 2:17 pm

              Also not very comparable to John Key, given that my dick gives me immense amounts of pleasure, where as John Key is just a pain in the arse.
              • Colonial Viper …

                26 February 2013 at 2:32 pm

                It seems like there is a shuffle of ideas in that sentence that I am assuming you would not be in to, McFlock
                • McFlock …

                  26 February 2013 at 3:21 pm

                  🙂
                  • ropata …

                    26 February 2013 at 11:50 pm

                    The speech from Team America World Police. At the end… you know the great one.
                    
13. vto 13

    26 February 2013 at 12:11 pm

    So we wonder if the rumours are right around Hawkins following Mainzeal down the dunny ……

    wouldn’t the consequences be something ….
14. Rogue Trooper 14

    26 February 2013 at 12:27 pm

    some “wishful” chinking
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10867690
15. joe90 15

    26 February 2013 at 12:40 pm

    If the conduct was so appalling that a blood thirsty Pashtun like Karzi ordered them out the notion of what was actually going on makes me feel quite ill.

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/24/17076037-afghan-president-orders-us-forces-out-of-key-province?lite
    • Rogue Trooper 15.1

      26 February 2013 at 1:37 pm

      here we go again?
      http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/israel-fears-new-palestinian-uprising-could-erupt
      fittin’ the Battle of Jericho (“and the walls, came tumblin’ tumblin'”; Mother do you think they’ll drop the bomb…mother will they put thee in the firin’ line…ooh baby, ooh baby baby, momma’s gonna make all of your nightmares come true!)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
16. yeshe 16

    26 February 2013 at 12:41 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10867876

    seriously ? 25c per hour increase min wage ? can’t think of how these Gnats could be more callous or inept or corrupt.
    • geoff 16.1

      26 February 2013 at 1:08 pm

      John Key wants NZ to be a place for wealthy people to retire and play golf and for them to not pay too much for gardeners and nannies and cleaners and film crew.
    • Colonial Viper 16.2

      26 February 2013 at 1:30 pm

      I’m expecting a bigger rise in election year…possibly even to $14.50/hr
    • Dr Terry 16.3

      26 February 2013 at 3:27 pm

      Yes, yeshe, “seriously” – it is tempting to think it a shocking attempt at a joke.
      • yeshe 16.3.1

        26 February 2013 at 3:49 pm

        I thought it was a typo when I read the headline ….
17. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 17

    26 February 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Some thoughts from today’s news.
    If we had an upper house, which tends to attract the conservative person, wouldn’t we be worse off than now? This thought after seeing that Berlusconi’s party is strongest in Italy’s upper house and likely to be a negative force on assistance for the ordinary man/woman. The wealthy and powerful do band together successfully to ensure that any goodies are channelled through are directed to themselves. (Berlusconi being an old guy has who pots and has managed to get the laws changed so that he owns or has major interests across all media there. And I bet that’s just part of his power. It seems like democracy fostering the growth of a king.)

    And climate. Where can I find discussion on cloud-seeding etc? Can anybody direct me. It seems that if clouds could be encouraged to drop volumes at sea, floods could be alleviated. I have seen pictures of USA planes that fly into storms with antennae poking out in front and this was decades ago. What has been found out that might aid the world? Might have to have a world treaty about it too, so that one region doesn’t steal the others’ rain.
    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      26 February 2013 at 1:34 pm

      Australia ain’t gonna be so lucky in the next 20-30 years.
      • Tim 17.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 4:21 pm

        Ain’t that the truth! Especially if you’re one of the ‘new-minority’: the ‘un-assimilated’.
        People clamour to get there mainly due to economic benefit, but in so doing, the multicultural nature of Australia morphs into the bland with perhaps the only stark l’etranger being the tribal indigenous.
        In the 60s (when once an OZ citizen), the only Aboriginees I saw were those I babysat as a college student during school holidays – down from Mildura. 40-45 years on, the ‘browning’ of OZ and inter-racial mixes are noticeable – such as Aboriginal with Philippino (the result of a mother HAVING to go on the game, and offspring living on the street).
        [Incidently – that sort of thing is an inevitable consequence of Planet Key policies here in NZuld. Expect to see a more Maori/Indian mixes in the BOP/ChCh; various others elsewhere].
        Hone was correct (re John Howard) – not much has changed in that regard except the veneer of “we’re all immigrants” (JUST SO LONG AS YOU DON’T ARRIVE BY BOAT; or ‘queue-jump’; OR you’re not one of those top-end useless bastards that cause the rest of us so much trouble.
        @ CV: Indeed it ain’t gonna be so lucky in the next 20-30 years.
        Watch ‘Pull Murray Live’ sometime on SKY 90 to see the level of delusion (you might have to over several days)

        You do know I ‘spose… that they actually have a “Closing the Gaps” programme.
        Christ! Where did I hear that before!
        and worse than that: what a spectacular choice! – not unlike ours: Gillard versus Abbot – the regular gal versus the Kethlik Boy; Shearer versus Key: The good-natured, regular guy with supposed impressive CV, versus the ideologue, feintly fick, used-car-salesman, noice goi Key. Why even Peter Jackson can’t resist the Krusmah
        • Rogue Trooper 17.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 6:06 pm

          great doco ’bout “assimilation” on Maori TV last evening
    • Draco T Bastard 17.2

      26 February 2013 at 3:05 pm

      If we had an upper house, which tends to attract the conservative person, wouldn’t we be worse off than now?

      Yes, we would be. In a party dominated political system, which representative democracy will inevitably become, then each house will be dominated by a party or coalition of parties. When each house is dominated by parties which are opposed to each other then effective policy making goes out the window in favour of “compromise” deals that are far worse as the right-wing don’t compromise.

      It seems like democracy fostering the growth of a king.

      No, it’s not democracy doing that but capitalism. As the wealth is channeled into fewer hands the representatives start to represent the rich and powerful instead of the people. As this cycle repeats even more wealth and power goes into fewer and fewer hands. The inevitable result will be an authoritarian state followed by collapse.

      Where can I find discussion on cloud-seeding etc?

      I’ve heard that China does it occasionally but that it’s not really worth it due to cost.
    • ropata 17.3

      27 February 2013 at 1:42 am

      @noseviper
      There are some wacky schemes outlined in wikipedia’s list of geoengineering proposals.
      • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 17.3.1

        28 February 2013 at 3:43 pm

        ropata
        Thanks. Should have asked wikipedia. Now I ought to ask wikileaks as to what secret planning is going on. There aren’t many bounds on inventive thinking by governments when it comes to wanting to dominate inner or outer space and the resources therein. They have spent plenty on tech to go to Mars, no prob finding money for that.
18. Olwyn 18

    26 February 2013 at 2:33 pm

    Apparently, Key isn’t ruling out a snap election if the court’s decision on water rights this week does not go his way.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/398717084-key-not-ruling-out-snap-election-over-water-rights
    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      26 February 2013 at 2:36 pm

      This’ll be very interesting
      • Colonial Viper 18.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 2:36 pm

        the PM not so subtly putting pressure on the judiciary too
        • Tim 18.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 4:54 pm

          Agreed. ABout time the Judiciary actually stood up and called time! I suspect there are a few that think it’s long overdue. Time for them to call bluff
      • Olwyn 18.1.2

        26 February 2013 at 2:43 pm

        What would it mean for the left? By which I mean left. I guess it would put the current set-up to the test. Key at this time would probably want to win, since he has not completed his mission, so they would probably be faced with a battle rather than a shift change.
        • bad12 18.1.2.1

          26 February 2013 at 3:15 pm

          Should the Supreme Court decision find against the Government over the question of the prior held water rights of Maori on the Waikato river i would imagine that Slippery will fall all over his feet racing to offer $$$$’s to the various claimants,

          i cannot see how the Supreme Court can find anything but Maori will be severely disadvantaged in negotiations over such prior-held water rights if the States assets spanning parts of that river are sold,

          As the Government counsel at the Waitangi Tribunal hearing had prior to the Supreme Court being asked to rule had implicitly admitted these prior held Maori rights to this river and it’s waters then the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that changing anything that could effect such claims until such time as these claims are quantified and settled must disadvantage the Maori claimants,

          The reasoning behind this is simply that the State owned assets on the Waikato River are, while the State still has ownership of them, subject to the provisions of settlement of such Treaty of Waitangi claims, and if sold into private ownership they are not…
    • Dr Terry 18.2

      26 February 2013 at 3:32 pm

      And then we would be rewarded with Shearer as P.M. Oh, my God, if people will not vote Green, what a fix we are in!
    • Draco T Bastard 18.3

      26 February 2013 at 3:32 pm

      Well, that would be the end of this government. Would be interesting to see what we get if he does call a snap election.
19. Draco T Bastard 19

    26 February 2013 at 2:50 pm

    The Hobbit Files have been released:

    Contrary to the government’s assertion, none of this information is “commercially sensitive”. It is however politically sensitive, both for the government and for Jackson. But that’s not a good reason to keep it secret. They made their political bed, and now they get to lie in it.
    • chris73 acualy is Dolan 19.1

      26 February 2013 at 3:35 pm

      Thats one view of it
      • McFlock 19.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 3:41 pm

        the other version is that governments should be allowed to conspire with prominent individuals to degrade the rights of ordinary New Zealanders, and have such deals kept secret in case ordinary New Zealanders got upset about it.
        • chris73 acualy is Dolan 19.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 3:48 pm

          I was more thinking that some foreign git was trying to jeopardize a major movie deal being filmed in NZ just so he could sign up some more actors and get some more money for his union…irrespective of what damage he was going to be doing
          • Colonial Viper 19.1.1.1.1

            26 February 2013 at 3:53 pm

            lol boy you are gullible

            Jackson and the Hollywood studios ready to make hundreds of millions from the movies

            But wanted even more subsidies from the NZ tax payer (Jackson who has already profited so much through NZ government activities at the start of his career)

            And to stop NZ actors receiving the same benefits as the foreign actors working on the same set

            Boy c73 man up please and stand for your fellow citizens OK, not for the elite?
            • chris73 acualy is Dolan 19.1.1.1.1.1

              26 February 2013 at 3:59 pm

              As the actors already acknowledged Peter Jackson treated them well yet some fat aussie comes over looking to swell bank balance and you’ll fall over yourselves sucking up to him, maybe you should try standing up for your fellow citizens and not be duped by foreigners

              Shame he didn’t target any of the other foreign productions but then that wouldn’t have given him as much publicity
              • Colonial Viper …

                27 February 2013 at 1:06 am

                Someones bank balances was swollen by this incident certainly.

                Peter Jackson’s. And some Hollywood moguls.

                The losers: workers and the NZ tax payer.
                • Epping Road …

                  27 February 2013 at 1:09 am

                  Yeah, those workers who got jobs out of the production staying here lost out, right. And those taxpayers who didn’t get the GST that wouldn’t have come to us if Warners had pulled out as they were going to, right? And those taxpayers who saw all those other taxpayers working on the project paying tax. They were losers too right?
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    27 February 2013 at 1:50 am

                    Yep. Jackson reduced them to serfs without union protection.

                    The same union protection he likes to enjoy himself, and which he allows foreign actors (but not NZ actors) to enjoy.
                    • Epping Road …

                      27 February 2013 at 2:07 am

                      Yeah those “serfs” who earn five times the minimum wage when they’re extras. And those sparkies and chippies and plumbers who earn more building sets and lighting rigs on contract to the production than they get when building a house.
                    • felixviper …

                      27 February 2013 at 8:18 am

                      And are forbidden by their paymasters from forming a union to negotiate their pay and conditions, yes.
          • framu 19.1.1.1.2

            26 February 2013 at 3:59 pm

            you do realise that one persons opinion of another doesnt equal facty things dont you?
          • framu 19.1.1.1.3

            26 February 2013 at 3:59 pm

            you do realise that one persons opinion of another doesnt equal facty things dont you?
          • PJ 19.1.1.1.4

            26 February 2013 at 4:03 pm

            Chris, that’s not the way it works.

            any residuals deal, now or in the future is run through NZ not Australia. the Australian union has nothing to do with any money generated in NZ, and NZ performers fees go back to the NZ performers union, Equity.actually the Australian union, after the NZ performers voted to merge with it in 2006/07 invested upwards of half a million dollars establishing the office and infrastructure (by infrastructure i mean the one person paid part-time to run admin for Actors Equity) in NZ.

            It is nigh on impossible for any individual actor or their agent to run their own residuals deal. the formula for percentages is highly complicated and depends on size of role, screen time, time on set, status of performer and many others, the information required to assess when and how much of a residual the performer is due must come (more often be demanded from) from the studio in good faith, and to accomplish this the actor would most often have to hire a specialist lawyer who’s fee would take most of any remaining residual.

            everywhere in the world actors residuals are handled by an organisation affiliated to the actors union or professional body.

            additionally, once the residuals deal is sorted, and agreed, who are the producers to say how actors choose to administer that? surely it is the actors who should choose who and how their small slice of future profits is administered…
            • felixviper 19.1.1.1.4.1

              27 February 2013 at 8:01 am

              Yes but it’s not unusual for tories to want to negotiate both sides of a deal.
    • NickS 19.2

      26 February 2013 at 4:09 pm

      The little I’ve seen on TVNZ makes Jackson look utterly paranoid and disconnected from reality, although that was merely the line he was spinning to ensure his company didn’t have to pay local actors a decent wage. Luckily for Jackson he had a government department headed by a complete moron who can’t handle complex issues. Like say the positive impacts of higher wages on the NZ economy and government coffers i.e.more taxesss, less ACC costs due to one employer to deal with and workers with more disposable income to buy moar stuff etc.

      Oh yeah, there’s only really one word to describe Jackson’s actions in a nutshell – “pathetic”.
      • Tim 19.2.1

        26 February 2013 at 5:04 pm

        Yea well… he is actually pathetic IMO. One of those pathetic of the male persuasion that seeks credibility (and their masculinity) in the arms of their beloved.
        OOOOOh Franny Fran …. them union ppl are being mean to me!
        There’s a Wairarapa castle that attests to it all.
        Pratt with a capital P.
20. tracey 20

    26 February 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Draco, have been reading too.. It appears the govt at no stage spoke to or with anyone on the other side of the story. Jackson is passionate doesnt mean he is right about other people espesh when he perceives they threaten his toy
    • chris73 acualy is Dolan 20.1

      26 February 2013 at 3:44 pm

      Better hope theres a smoking gun…people supported The Hobbit and they don’t forget
      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 3:55 pm

        They should have supported NZ actors receiving the same protections and union membership as foreign actors
        • chris73 acualy is Dolan 20.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 4:03 pm

          As the actors already acknowledged Peter Jackson treated them well yet some fat aussie comes over looking to swell his bank balance and you all fall over yourselves sucking up to him, maybe you should try standing up for your fellow citizens and not be duped by foreigners

          Shame he didn’t target any of the other foreign productions but then that wouldn’t have given him as much publicity
          • bad12 20.1.1.1.1

            26 February 2013 at 5:41 pm

            What the hell is this tr**lling doing here,making the same comment numerous times is not debate…
            • chris73 acualy is Dolan 20.1.1.1.1.1

              26 February 2013 at 6:51 pm

              bda12 pls…
21. Dave Kennedy (bsprout) 21

    26 February 2013 at 3:42 pm

    It is interesting that when National supporters claim that we are providing misinformation, they never specify what it is. http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2013/02/blind-support-for-failing-government.html
22. Tim 22

    26 February 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Gawd Strewth!… I’m watching Cunliffe at the mo in Parly r mint Debates shovving it too the opposition with such force his colleagues could only dream of. Yet his dear leader doesn’t see reason to include him in anything meaningful.
    Stance confirmed! Labour will not get my party vote.
    • bad12 22.1

      26 February 2013 at 5:37 pm

      Really, do you know how the Parliament works???, for Cunliffe to be on His feet questioning the Opposition he must have been allotted time via the Labour Whips office,

      In other words the Hierarchy has deliberately given Cunliffe time to speak in the House, i know that’s not what you want to hear but that is the reality…
23. Socialist Paddy 23

    26 February 2013 at 5:14 pm

    It is being reported on twitter that Louisa Wall has been removed from the Maori Affairs select committee by Shearer. Henare says she was not told beforehand.

    If so this is a bad show. Wall is one of the best performing MPs that Labour has right now. Why would he do this?
    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      26 February 2013 at 5:47 pm

      IF this is true, then the spitefulness of the Shearer/Robertson camp knows no bounds. Who’d they put on instead – Shane Jones?
      • Socialist Paddy 23.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 5:59 pm

        Some more detail has come out and it is not so bad.

        The Herald reports that “[s]he told the Herald that Labour is replacing her with Nanaia Mahuta, the former education spokeswoman, who is now the Maori development spokeswoman after yesterday’s reshuffle.

        Louisa Wall, the MP for Manurewa, has become an associate health spokeswoman and will join Annette King on the health committee, which clashes with the Maori affairs committee. She had not realised until today she would have to move.”
        • Colonial Viper 23.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 6:10 pm

          Whew. A shift sideways; just sounds like some communications issues which could have been handled a bit better.
          • QoT 23.1.1.1.1

            26 February 2013 at 7:03 pm

            Unfortunately not unprecedented (Parker replacing Cunliffe), so I sadly have to conclude that it’s sheer incompetence which Shearer’s office has no desire to actually address.
24. Steady Course 24

    26 February 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Something for the lefties:

    An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

    The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

    After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

    The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
    When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

    As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

    To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) These are possibly the 5 best sentences you’ll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

    1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

    2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

    3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

    4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

    5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
    • bad12 24.1

      26 February 2013 at 5:32 pm

      Take this piece of wing-nut propaganda and shove it where the sun does not shine, this is simply tr**lling that has been used here over and over by the wing-nut fraternity and deserves no other answer than derision…
      • chris73 acualy is Dolan 24.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 6:57 pm

        bad12 just to let you that someone posting something you don’t agree isn’t trolling, yes I know you don’t like it when someone offers a differing opinion but that still doesn’t make it trolling
    • NickS 24.2

      26 February 2013 at 5:41 pm

      Silly silly douche, don’t you realise google is so totes easy to use to cluebat/fact check with?:
      http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp
    • NickS 24.3

      26 February 2013 at 5:45 pm

      Downloading stuff via steam seems to stuff up the comment editor, anyhow:

      http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×6117657
      trololololol, turns out the basic premise was also in the doorstop/toilet paper known as Atlas Shrugged.
    • Colonial Viper 24.4

      26 February 2013 at 6:15 pm

      It seems you have no idea what “wealth” and “prosperity” actually are. Clue: its not the printed linen put out by the Federal Reserve.
25. Rogue Trooper 25

    26 February 2013 at 5:48 pm

    some Pizza on the Q.T;
    key-“potential for lignite dev. in NZ
    English-‘SOE’s: prices to be revised downwards”
    English-talk about extrapolating “increased PAYE to ” mean a whole lot of insulfluff!
    Robertson-“net loss of 30,000 jobs; HLFS

    concession to key; fudging and casualties aside, he is a “master of his universe” and that is observable
    regrettably
    though occasionally he gets hung on his own petard, particularly by WP or the “duck”
    (Hipkins? w.a.p imo)

    TFC-On The Border.
    Cosgrove / Ryall: M of SOE’s “took steps in 2009”. Ryally?

    Mojo-“Kiwi Rail cutting 2-300M 2013-2015

    Horan-Ambulance Chasing (suplise suplise)
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0163988/
    Bringing Out The Dead
    or Leaving Las Vegas

    (read a lot of “familiar” words in the MSM Paddy 😉 )

    “if I were the President of this land, I’d declare War on The Pusher Man”

    The Wolf bites back; Shiraz / Grenache, $7.48 (it’s criminal Ned)

    wanna re-engrave His-story? siege-machines; manpower and cold steel over the wall.feel me.
    consider “outclassed” putting it firmly and politely (mite goin check out you-know-WhO)
    kinda’ like Martha Stewart.
    meanwhile, back in the bay; Trials all gone to the Dogs (and we may have gone to spectate) due to Drought conditions Allied Farmers are in the drench.
    Riddle Me Out On The Street Alistair
    
    Carry On. as you were.
26. The Al1en 26

    26 February 2013 at 5:56 pm

    I have an edit button.
    Thank you very much.
    • Rogue Trooper 26.1

      26 February 2013 at 6:11 pm

      use it or lose it
      • The Al1en 26.1.1

        26 February 2013 at 6:22 pm

        Of course it didn’t work, not bringing up my comment to edit, but it’s nice to have it all the same.

        “use it or lose it”

        The curse of married men everywhere.
        • Rogue Trooper 26.1.1.1

          26 February 2013 at 7:33 pm

          Variety is the spice of life, up to point, then it’s time to Settle Down
          
          (be good, and if you can’t be good, be safe, and if you can’t be safe, Name them after me) 🙂
          Take Care out There Everybody, she’s a Hill Street Blues.
          • The Al1en 26.1.1.1.1

            26 February 2013 at 7:47 pm

            Apparently, the agency did tell me it was a solo mission before I signed up.

            “be good”

            Sage.
27. bad12 27

    26 February 2013 at 6:27 pm

    Bill from Dipton, ”Solid Energy is all Labour’s fault”,

    Perlease cannot the Finance Minister either read or add 1 plus 1???,

    id not the Finance minister notice that in September 2008 mere month’s befor He became Finance Minister the international price of coal dropped by a third from $150 a tonne to $111.50 a tonne,

    Perhaps Bill from Dipton was too busy with the election at that time but only the dullest of knives in the draw could have failed to have noticed that the price of coal by October 2010, 2 years into this abysmal National Governments first term, the international price had dropped to $71.50 for a tonne of the black stuff,

    That’s not a mistake and that along with this Governments failure to address the high NZ$ which has also served to help turn the States coal miner into a basket case can only be described as pig ignorance and a gross dereliction of the member from Dipton’s duty as the Finance Minister…
28. Rogue Trooper 28

    26 February 2013 at 7:40 pm

    btw,
    “push your old numbers
    let your phone ring
    It’s not this quiet
    slide down your receiver
    sprint across the wire
    follow her number
    slide into her hand
    
    (i take it from your whisper that you’re not that tough)
29. joe90 29

    26 February 2013 at 8:01 pm

    A new set of talking points in… 3…2….

    http://www.pik-potsdam.de/news/press-releases/weather-extremes-provoked-by-trapping-of-giant-waves-in-the-atmosphere
    • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 29.1

      26 February 2013 at 8:54 pm

      Interesting joe90
30. bad12 30

    26 February 2013 at 10:00 pm

    Debate in the House today included the second reading of the bill which extends the time that the Canterbury Region will be without an elected Governance structure as democracy according to the Slippery National Government is not a right but is granted upon the basis of their whim,

    Included in the bill is further provision for Canterbury farmers to suck the life from the regions waterways with specific provision in part to of the Act denying anyone the right of appeal against such mis-use,

    i have to wonder here how loud the screams of protest would be if the National Party were abolished by legislation of the next Parliament and specifically within such legislation denied any right of appeal,

    i could really begin to like that idea…
    • RedBaronCV 30.1

      26 February 2013 at 10:15 pm

      +
31. felixviper 31

    27 February 2013 at 12:58 am

    FFS. Mark Mitchell, National mp, horrible bogan and former policeman struggles to get to grips with the world around him

    Ah, uh, whadda they call these androids and textbook-y facebook things, all these devices where you swipe your finger across and strange things happen

    Phone, Mark. It’s called a phone.
32. McFlock 32

    27 February 2013 at 1:21 am

    it’s witchcraft I tells ya!

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