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Open mike 26/10/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 26th, 2011 - 72 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

72 comments on “Open mike 26/10/2011”

  1. Dan1 1

    What a couple of months! What a party it has been! What great hosts New Zealanders have been!
    But there is a part of the New Zealand sporting psyche that leaves me absolutely cold: we are lousy losers. Friends in the grandstand on Sunday night, when things were getting a little doubtful half way through the second half, were looking for the nearest exit in case there was a loss. The alcohol fuelled muttonheads around them were losing the plot. A large group of policemen were moved forward.
    The insane booing of Quade Cooper, the gormless put downs of Australians; the Pom bashing; the regular reference to the underarm bowling incident a million years ago are all examples of NZ insecurity and little man/poor cousin syndrome.
    Can we not learn some grace and character, and celebrate all that is great on the sportsfield. Cheerfulness, passion, in your face enthusiasm is wonderful. Mindless boorishness is one memory that I don’t want people to remember New Zealand by. We are lousy loosers, and should endeavour, on the back of all the well deserved celebrations this time, to remember that next time we come up short.

  2. Jenny 2

    Mana to release it’s economic policy this Thursday in Auckland

    MANA – movement of the people – press release

    Our policy may bring some sleepless nights in Remuera but will bring comfort to parents, kids and communities across the rest of the country.

    John Minto

  3. Tension starting to show in the ranks of Occupy Dunedin.

    Disagreements about onsite policies, serious online abuse, physical threats in an assembly. And still no idea of what they propose to actually do. Except issue PR pieces:

    “Call for people before profit”

    • just saying 3.1

      Are you going to provide some links to support your contention Pete. Or are we supposed to take your word for it?
      The link you provide (twice) makes no mention of what you allege.

      • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1

        That’s going to be hard for Pete to do, given that he’s making it up. Funny how he can spend hours  moaning about the minor issue of the accuracy of a date used on a John Banks pamphlet yesterday, but has no problem smearing the Occupy Dunedin movement this morning.

        • Pete George

          I can back up everything I have said. I have had extensive contact with what’s happening in Dunedin. So you should retract your accusation that I’m making it up or you wil be the one seen to be smearing.

          I’m not smearing the movement, I’m highlighting real concerns that the public and some people within the movement have.

          • Colonial Viper

            Concern troll. Provide no solutions, give it a helping hand to fall apart faster.

            • Pete George

              Haha, and other concern trolls diss me when I offer solutions.

              The standard approach here as usual, attack the messenger.

              • lprent

                But you do make yourself such an attractive target.

                When you write, especially the first thing in the morning comments that I read over coffee. I keep trying to remember when I last saw so much vacuous lack of content wrapped up in high sounding verbiage… I have come to the conclusion it was when I last watched the pre-game TV waffle at any sporting event with the sound on spewing its mindless drivel. Mind you The Panel comes close pretty frequently.

                Of course commentators try to prick the balloon – only realistic way to find out if there is any substance in there.

            • Bill

              Following Abe’s post on the Occupy’s fb page, I posted suggesting that facilitation of meetings be made a priority and included a link to some basic info on facilitation. (My experience whenever I have popped in is that there is no facilitation of meetings). On that post, someone commented that there was a person who had facilitated at least one meeting quite well, which I took as a positive sign that things could be moving in a good direction.

              However, on checking back this morning it appears that post has been deleted. I know that fb can be a bit random on how it displays stuff and that it might ‘pop’ back into existence.

              I’ve posted again asking whether that post, as well as a similarily viened comment under Abe’s post, was deleted as trolling. (The people ‘in charge’ of the Occupy page have stated they are now deleting posts they consider to be trolling.)

              In the meantime, and this is only an impression from the fb comments under Abe’s original post, it appears that Occupy simply does not know how to deal with the situation and are simply waiting for the antagonist to leave. More than not knowing how to deal with the situation, there is an element of denial, with comments coming from fairly prominent people to the effect that it was just a glitch in a peaceful Occupation and that it won’t happen again. But (and again I’m stressing this impression is based only on the fb comments etc) there appears to be a lack of willingness to treat the situation seriously and attempt to put systems in place that might prevent a repeat occurance. Go figure.

      • Pete George 3.1.2

        Sorry, here is the second link (easy to find from the first anyway):

        • mik e

          Occupy Dunedin they’ve obviously got more support in north dunedin than
          Pernacios Guile
          Jealousy I am certain That a group of young people can get involved in politics in their own way
          Something PG thinks is ok for him but anyone else is wrong

    • Bill 3.2

      Sadly. There has been someone who was fairly prominent and active leave after being threatened with assault.

      From their facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=174019599347247

      After being threatened with assault by one of your ‘security’ people I will not be coming back to or supporting the occupation any more. If the occupation in it’s current state is even driving away the most committed activists how will it ever break through to the masses?

    • AAMC 3.3

      @PeteG, Suggest you follow @RDevro & @allisonkilkenny on twitter for love tweeting from GA’s in NYC to see how they are resolving issues between residents and # OWS. Happening now!

  4. AAMC 4

    Great lecture on the Markets and Morality.


  5. AAMC 5

    Welcome to the Police State as they evict #occupyoakland

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Occupy Protests too inexperienced to fade away late one night on their own terms and in their own control while their message was still strong.

  6. Colonial Viper 6

    Signs of US economic collapse: Cattle rustling now at an all time high


    Just like its the 1800s.

  7. prism 7

    There is bound to be confrontation and anger when people from differing beliefs come together. Each believes that they are So Right – one says Peace, Love and Life and to hell with you if you disagree with something and express that differing opinion. The other comes at things from a Randian approach and discounts everything as Wrong if it is opposed to an individual shining path to success of grand personal concepts.

    I noticed on the Dunedin Occupy facebook page that someone was playing with the slogan of 99% (ordinary people) – 1% (fabulously wealthy) to the 1% being the state, and bad-mouthing what it does for us all. I think this is a dangerous attitude, that opens the way to worse governance from what I call the mechanicals, the machine-like thinkers that don’t want to meet the human needs of others.

    I have been looking at a book I bought from curiosity. It is called grandly The Book and has someone’s considered approach which sounds like Tea Party stuff, divided into three sections God-Man, Neo-Tech, Illusions. There is similar to creationist thinking with personal belief co-opting a pseudo scientific approach and a strong dollop of how to be a self-made man. A shining example is James J Hill who sounds like a clever man who built a railroad with no borrowed money and made a profit, the writer Mark Hamilton says, from day one. In contrast, he says, the state made a mess of its interests in railroads because of “the incompetence and greed of career politicians…But one market entrepreneur could raise the standard of living of a nation”. This leads to the worship of the individual, money, single-mindedness, individuality and to hell with everybody else. A step back to Dickens’ time with a shrug from the haves – as Deborah Crone Something said yesterday? – life can’t be perfect.

    • Bill 7.1

      I don’t buy that there will necessarily be ‘confrontation and anger’ when people with differing beliefs come together.

      There are mechanisms and practices that can be adopted/developed to stop that happening. Good facilitation is one. Getting rid of all the ‘red rag to a bull’ banners that proclaim adherence to this, that or the other political tradition…y’know, this embodies the one truth and the true path, not that one over there the ‘infidels’ are touting ….

      This is afterall (in theoretically at least) a movement, not a coalition. Therefore no one stated position has any right to primacy. And as there is (or should be) no competition between opposing views seeking dominance, then all those characteristics that mark a coalition have no place. Pretty simple, I would have thought.

      And yes, there are some right wing libertrians popping up. But hey. Their positions are so porous and if treated properly, a good way to bring people to a contrary position. So I don’t actually mind them so much. One guy put up a photo of a poster banging on about freedom. (Could be the same guy you mention) On first glance, it might have appealed to some people. It was Ayn Rand through and through. Anyway. Many comments back and forth later, and yes, I’ve finally and politely given up. But in the meantime, anyone reading the comments will at least have some info to base their opinions or position on now and won’t just unwittingly buy into the message at face value.

      • just saying 7.1.1

        I’m inclined to agree with Prism on this one.
        And there need to be mechanisms to stop such conflict from being destructive, but they won’t stop it.

        This is the challenge for the left – managing how we deal with our diversity, and the occupy movement is bound to be a bit of a microcosm of it. I hope the guy who left will eventually feel able to return.

        Have you lived closely with diverse others for any length of time, without any significant anger, arguments, confrontation…?

        Genuine question Bill. I’ve never seen that, and in a way I wonder if it wouldn’t even be a bit unhealthy.

        • Bill

          It’s not so much that ‘significant anger, arguments, confrontation’ are the problem. It’s how that stuff is dealt with within a group and by the group. And it’s also putting mechanisms in place so that emerging stuff is dealt with early on, before it becomes writ large and assumes a dynamic all of it’s own that consumes everything and every one in a whirlwind of destructive b/s.

          And I wouldn’t say the Occupiers are living that closely with one another. People come and go throughout the day or week for a variety of reasons. Which is fine and fair enough. People aren’t intertwined and relying on the group remaining coherent for all, or even anywhere near most, of their ongoing daily needs. They have utterly separate lives to one another outside of the Occupation that they pursue to satisfy most of those.

          Oh. And in answer to your question, yes I have (God, what a messy comment!) And if you cycle back to the top of the comment, you’ll get the answer to the second part of your question 🙂

          • KJT

            Agro, confrontation and passionate responses are often seen at meetings where people care deeply about something.

            That in itself is to be expected. It is a positive that they care so much.

            Some sort of management/debating rules are required so everyone feels their view has been, at least, heard.

        • Pete George

          If Occupy is for the 99% then it can’t be “the left”.

          The guy who left was offering real solutions to what is otherwise a growing problem, if dealing with things is addressed rather than staunch intransigence then it’s possible he could return. Occupy Dunedin is at a crossroads – find ways to move forward or all that will be left is the staunch going nowhere, until forced to move on.

          • mickysavage

            Pete how does it feel to be part of the 0.1% that support United Follicles (I rounded up)?

          • felix

            “If Occupy is for the 99% then it can’t be “the left”.”

            Well not in the sense you imply, no.

            But broadly speaking, the issue is inequality. And politicians of the right are working hard to further entrench that inequality at every step.

            Politicians on the right vote for policies that benefit the 1% (or 5% or 10% or however you break it down) at the expense of everybody else.

            Unless you think the problem is that the rich don’t have enough money and power, the solutions are never going to come from the right of the political spectrum.

            • Pete George

              If it’s framed as a “left” crusade it won’t get 44.5% support.

              • McFlock

                and you’re an expert on getting more than 44% support, are you?
                UF governing alone in 2012?

                • I’m not claiming I can change the world, my target is just an electorate.

                  • yeah pete it’s all about you

                    btw has Mana got a Dunedin North candidate yet?

                    I find it interesting that your attacks on Occupy started off as against some ‘left’ organisations coopting the movement under cover of darkness and using the movement to push their own barrow – now you say the left aren’t 99%. It is funny watching your lines change and gradually align with – shock! horror! your own position of affected neutrality, the godlike middle, and having sensible haircuts. That says lack of integrity to me and egocentric self interest masquerading as concern for a movement that saw through and spurned your trojan horse approach.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      your own position of affected neutrality, the godlike middle, and having sensible haircuts.

                      I wrote this over on the Archdruid site:

                      …fallen into the Myth of the Middle. These people who have so fallen take two positions, label them extremes and then say that the answer to all our woes is in the middle. These are the people who have taking the truism Everything in moderation – even moderation to heart (although they seem to have missed the warning at the end) and will oppose doing anything that they see as radical.

                      And it appears to apply to PeteG quite well.

                    • big ups for commenting on one of my favorite sites – man that dude is so on the money and i love his serialised science fiction novella being written as we speak.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Star’s Reach, FTW!

                    • have you tried the short story challenge? – I’ve tried to but struggling – great to think about post situations as we plunge headlong into it.

              • felix

                I agree Pete, it’s a much bigger issue than a left/right analysis can accommodate.

                But the fact is that the policies of the left will play a part in the solution and the policies of the right will not.

          • KJT

            Pity it has not been published yet, but I have seen a Uni study that basically says that over 80% of New Zealanders, given a choice of policies without being told which party they originated from, favour Green party policies.

            Not too far from 99%.

            Shows why NACT/UF/MP are wise, to avoid mentioning their policies, when they are campaigning.

      • prism 7.1.2

        Bill I think your point about ‘reading the comments’ is important. The talk swirling round that doesn’t get pinned down and considered can become a confusing waste of time where there are many partly formed views or just a sense of huge unease. There must be a way of distilling the concerns so they can be considered, and everyone know what is being discussed and that everyone’s points are noted. I think this would help everyone to be heard or to find a point that would agree with their opinions.

        This is afterall (in theoretically at least) a movement, not a coalition. Therefore no one stated position has any right to primacy. And as there is (or should be) no competition between opposing views seeking dominance, then all those characteristics that mark a coalition have no place. Pretty simple, I would have thought.

        Without a written record things can get really unclear as each person will have a slightly different opinion of what has been heard and their perception of it, and their memories, can twist it further. Preparing for this with the means would be important as a basis for full democratic discussion. Power points and electronic devices could be used to record and display but something that people can access without a machine would be good.

        I think people need a whiteboard or large paper sheets with crayons if not markers and then keywords get noted with bullet points and someone then getting a copy, if necessary using a device such as getting a picture on a cellphone, so it’s not lost when the whiteboard gets cleaned. This means that valuable thinking time is captured and the content can be recovered for further consideration later. And writing down the names of people proposing things would be good so that they can be referred back to and can background the issue and points they made.

        • Bill

          A lot of what you refer to there is a part of what a good facilitator does. (ie takes all the various angles, merges or assimilates them and feeds that sum total back to the group so that everyone is clear and in agreement on what’s what and also identifies the areas of disagreement that need further exploration.)

          And yes, notes. But not that are presented back at some future date (although that happens too) but that are verified as they are written. Note takers usually distil and interprate points being made. And it’s important that the person making the point agrees with the note takers interpretation/summation.

      • AAMC 7.1.3

        I have not been to Dunedin Occupy and not to Auck in a few days, but I’m interested predominantly in the international movement, which seems to have this horizontal decision making more sorted and has an absence of the vested interests we seem to be dominating here. They are in support but are not driving it.

        Until the youth are feeling a bit more pain this is unlikely to change.

        But in the meantime, those here should perhaps engage more carefully in the way things are being managed around the world. Spain, US and London seem to be working well.

        Some problem with Anarchust faction in Zucotti park seems to have been dealt with.

    • prism 7.2

      Further to my thoughts on not dissing ‘the state’ as an automatic response, there was a talk on China on RAdionz this morning giving a statistic (approximate) of 45 million Chinese people who died mainly of starvation caused by state control taking over private food production in China in the 50s and 60s as a result of the failure of collectivisation forced by the Chinese Communist government. However this figure needs to be compared to earlier famines, I don’t know what the death total then has been.

      So the state is only good as long it is consulting and acting on what the people advise, including the learned academics and scientists, and the advisors and professionals scheme and plan good practical policies.

      • Bill 7.2.1

        I’m not a statist. But the starvation in China wasn’t a simple failure of state planning. It involved dynamics whereby minor party officials wanted to look good and so lied about the amount of rice grown. If a higher up official was coming for a ‘look see’, paddies were ripped up and ‘replanted’ to make it appear that yields would be higher than they actually would be. That new info, then informed the commands coming back down from the top. You might say they never saw it (the famine) coming.

        Anyway, in any command economy, that problem whereby ‘the party’ gathers info and is in sole charge of making decisions on that info, is going to exist. And people will lie. Either because they want to curry favour or because they want to avoid negative repercussions for not achieving party goals.

  8. Lanthanide 8

    On the radio this morning they were saying that NZ is looking to secure a trade agreement with Taiwan.

    We’ll be the first country in the world to have trade agreements with Taiwan, Hong Kong and China at the same time.

  9. prism 9

    Good thinking alert – Professor Paul Dalziel: Recreating Full Employment
    The 2011 Bruce Jesson Memorial Lecture will be held at the Maidment Theatre at Auckland University at 6:30pm on Wednesday 26 October

    More info on these lecture opportunities – http://www.brucejesson.com/lectures

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      Would appreciate a synopsis from any one who went, if poss 🙂

      • Campbell Larsen 9.1.1

        I was there, but didn’t take notes, if no one else offers a more specific summary I will put one forward tomorrow. Very much enjoyed it – there is a second lecture as part of the series in mid November well worth making time to attend.

      • prism 9.1.2

        CV I would probably have the opportunity to get a printout.

      • Campbell Larsen 9.1.3

        @CV @prism @seeker – I contacted the secretary of the foundation and he advised me that the lecture will be available on the website end of today, or tomorrow now by the looks of it.
        I thought it better to provide the source material. When it goes live I will post the address on open mike but it will most probably be here:

  10. prism 10

    Has Fonterra been hoist on its own petard? If they could use the methane from the effluent from the dairy cows, which they haven’t, they would not be dependent on the reticulated gas sector.
    Isn’t that putting all your eggs in the one basket, or your cheeses anyway.

  11. not sure if this has been linked to yet –

    “Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world”

    “The work, to be published in PLoS One, revealed a core of 1318 companies with interlocking ownerships. Each of the 1318 had ties to two or more other companies, and on average they were connected to 20. What’s more, although they represented 20 per cent of global operating revenues, the 1318 appeared to collectively own through their shares the majority of the world’s large blue chip and manufacturing firms – the “real” economy – representing a further 60 per cent of global revenues.

    When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a “super-entity” of 147 even more tightly knit companies – all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity – that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. “In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network,” says Glattfelder.”


    I support the Occupy movements and even though they are still learning they have got a lot right such as the focus on capitalism. I don’t see any redeemable features of that system and therefore i support replacing it before it kills everything.

    This link is a video from tangata whenua at Occupy Auckland and the work they are doing to make the movement more inclusive.


  12. A ‘C Pass’ – New Zealand, (still) only an ‘aspiring’ mediocrity.

    • Ianupnorth 12.1

      Downgraded on immigration!! LMAO – another Key “Building a brighter future’ moment!!

      • Herodotus 12.1.1

        That is the only great news in the report. No more importing economic growth
        Perhaps now we can see how NZ travels on our on energy. And perhaps value our own people that we train, only to lose offshore and then having to make up for this then “buy” immigrates from other countries with the same skill set. Does anyone ever think of the damage we are causing to the likes of India, SA etc with the e.g. medical staff we are pouching? Sure we benefit greatly from their skills, but at what cost.
        Also how can NZ be a great place to live when the average shoe box cost is so prohibitive and rents so high?

  13. ultra-left sectarian 13

    Is David Parker going back to the future in Epsom?

  14. logie97 14

    Just listened to Dame Susan Devoy on the panel talking about the Honours system.
    “Oh Lord it is hard to be humble when you’re perfect in …

    She commented that she was delighted that the Queen’s honours had been restored by the current government and in particular for those who received the, then new, New Zealand awards and were able to commute them to the traditional Queen’s honours.

    I guess it never occurred to her that she could have lifted the profile of the New Zealand awards and approached the Governor General to have her “Damehood” commuted to the New Zealand awards – nah. No more likely than her other mates in ACT, like Sir Roger Douglas. They love the baubles.

    • ianmac 14.1

      Want to place bets on how soon there is the Sir John Right Honorable Prime Minister John Key? Quick before it is too late!

  15. belladonna 15

    Radio Live (Karyn & Andrew) discussing the bias of the media especially Duncan Garner.
    Nice to actually have it acknowledged. ( On now – finishes at 10pm)

  16. Moody’s keep NZ at AAA – as I thought.

    John Key saying he expected another downgrade made me assume that he assumed we weren’t getting one.

    Make a story out of your comment that we’ll get a third downgrade then, voila, the relief when we don’t.

    And claim the credit for being ‘realistic’ or ‘modest’ in the interim.

    Timed to arrive just after the PREFU, too. See, it’s not so bad after all.

    Just as well we know from John Key’s secret emailer that the ratings agencies are extremely politically active and aware in their operations and interpretations.

  17. Colonial Viper 17

    US Police fuck Occupy Oakland

    Thanks Russia TV. No one else is showing this.

  18. seeker 18

    TV3 news tonight- -Ashcroft flies in to meet Key -just before an election again. This time Key’s not so reticent about it and tries to make it sound good by telling us that Ashcroft is the deputy chair of the British Conservative party -but he is not. Key misinforms us yet again. Surely he should have known?

    Ashcroft lost the job last year as he was considered a liability! Not surprising considering some of the really questionable things he has got up to. He was especially good at misleading Blair’s government about his domicile tax status to get his lordship title, and was even known as “Blofeld” by senior friends of Cameron. Yipes and yuck.


    Why does Mr, Key keep such questionable company???? Why does he keep meeting this “Blofeld”
    just before elections. Surely it has nothing to do with……….sales and sell outs?

    Come in 007………. and smell the coffee again…. over and out

  19. RedLogix 19

    And just for the skiting rights…. I’m posting this from a tent at Occupy Wellington. All tucked up on a very wet night.

  20. Kty 20

    Piece of trivia for you folks.

    If you Google John Key is an idiot, You get 3,800,000 results.

    Thats what you call popularity eh.

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