- Date published:
6:08 am, December 26th, 2013 - 139 comments
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Open mike is your post.
For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.
The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).
Step right up to the mike …
“..Inequality is the result of a whole range of policies-
– intended to redistribute income upward..”
Yes, good article and see a related problem re education opportunities in this country as I mention below.
Great article by Frank Macskasy over on the daily blog about how National are purposefully bringing in lower wages.
placing downward pressure on wages is and always has been part of the standard wealth redistribution policy of the Right.
This most commonly comes in the form of relaxed immigration policy or legislation around labor laws
this one is pretty cool..
Astonishing Photographs Of Drugs Prove Substances Look Just Like They Feel
and yep..!..caffeine is also in there..(and very spiky it is..)
..and the lsd one is just so very..lsd…
Or for some viral nasties and an insect/bug or 3 try these
I always thought that that caffeine was nasty looking shit.
A few days ago I was talking to someone, who, a few years back had started taking lessons to learn to read properly after having spent a lifetime hiding the fact that he had come out of school without being able to do so (probably due to dyslexia). Not being able to read stopped him from being able to do many things including many types of jobs.
He was enjoying the lessons and obviously feeling more empowered and optimistic about his future.
I asked him whether he was still doing these lessons.
Government cut the funds that paid for his lessons.
I am furious.
What advantage is there in removing the opportunity for people to learn such a necessary skill??
I am also aware that over 40 year olds have had 2 years of student allowance support removed. Too bad if they want to retrain after having a family – they can only do so if they are prepared to take on substantially more debt.
How is removing assistance, i.e. effectively discouraging people from education, an advantage to any New Zealander? Or New Zealand as a whole?
It is not.
While these types of cuts have been occurring, politicians have been waxing lyrical about needing to ‘upgrade’ one’s skills to get better paid jobs [implicitly: it is low waged peoples’ fault for being poor due to not having done so] and blathering on about the great need for New Zealand to become a high skill economy.
This is complete and utter shite: politicians, in their well-paid jobs, are obstructing ‘upskilling’ from occurring [they are also very quick to import skilled workers while dragging their heels when it comes to supporting and encouraging New Zealanders to gain these skills. ]
So next time English is trumpeting how ‘healthy’ the books are [which they are not] do spare a thought for all the people who have lost the opportunity to learn something new and develop their chances of earning a decent livelihood and becoming more engaged and more part of this society.
And who wants to be part of a society where obstructions are placed in the way of people in less fortunate circumstances from getting an education?
No wonder people aren’t voting.
and in other age-related assistance cut-off news..
..if you are going to get glaucoma..make sure you do it before age 60..eh..?
..;cos..if you get glaucoma after age 60..
..the govt/health services will just tell you .. to go blind..
..and can i ask..why the fuck aren’t greypower all over issues like this..?
..why aren’t they doing their job..?
..w.t.f. do they do all day..?
I’m getting really cross.
Who the hell supports these policies?
And is the main opposition party going to stick to what Cunliffe won the leadership on or simply vacillate and water it down?
You don’t need to be able to read to clean toilets or dig ditches. If you really can’t get your shit together enough to part fund your own education then maybe you are better suited to menial work. Not everyone can be part of the knowledge economy. It’s natural that some people do better than others, and there are natural stratas in human societies that need to be respected.
“Who the hell supports these policies?”
People who think like what I just wrote, even if they don’t formulate it so bluntly. And the middle classes who are now afraid that they will be next so support whatever gives them short and medium term gain. Plus the many in the middle classes who lack any useful or meaningful understanding of class and so are more easily led by State and MSM funded prejudice.
Yeah, sadly I think you are probably quite right there.
There is a real paradox in the way of thinking you so accurately give an example of.
When low wages are the issue blame is placed on people for not having pursued an education yet when education is the issue and serious obstacles are being placed in the way of people getting an education there is this message that ‘maybe they are better suited to ‘menial’ jobs anyway (like you have given in your example).
Both issues get ‘rationalised’ away (closer to ‘irrationalised, really isn’t it?) by the two different arguments and neither issue is addressed.
The people who think like that need to get it together and realise that there is an increasing amount of government subsidisation of low waged workers and that increasing the obstacles to people gaining an education leads to less chances for people to get out of the poverty rut.
In both cases – low wages, and low education opportunities – it costs the taxpayer. Either in the rent/ health/ wage subsidies or welfare benefits, not to mention the effects of a whole swathe of New Zealanders who are not reaching their potential.
Wouldn’t it be better to have people studying than stuck on the dole for years on end losing all motivation and hope? Wouldn’t it be better for people to be on a wage that covered their costs without government assistance? Wouldn’t it be better for the government to be encouraging education rather than creating major obstacles and keeping them in a poverty trap?
“In both cases – low wages, and low education opportunities – it costs the taxpayer. Either in the rent/ health/ wage subsidies or welfare benefits, not to mention the effects of a whole swathe of New Zealanders who are not reaching their potential.”
Except the obvious solution there (for selfish people) is to privatise and/or cut funding to those areas of govt spending. Problem solved.
“Wouldn’t it be better to have people studying than stuck on the dole for years on end losing all motivation and hope? Wouldn’t it be better for people to be on a wage that covered their costs without government assistance? Wouldn’t it be better for the government to be encouraging education rather than creating major obstacles and keeping them in a poverty trap?”
Maybe bl, but I’m not convinced by the education for everyone as a solution to unemployment argument. The problem in the past was that education was prioritised for certain classes of people and denied others. Then there was the drive to get everyone into tertiary education because that would improve employment opportunities. But it doesn’t matter if eveyone in NZ has a degree if there still aren’t enough jobs to go around. That tertiary drive also coincided with messing with the apprenticeship schemes and doing things like making all nursing training a degree course. That reduced educational opportunities, by reducing diversity and making education more expensive for the individual and government.
I guess it really depends on what you mean by education. Personally I think we should accept permanent unemployment and shift to a supportive state whereby people on the dole and other benefits are able to supplement their income, and are also supported to use their time in the way that they see fit – it might be formal education, or it might be voluntary work. Or it might be sitting at home writing poetry, or helping a mate fix his car. Or people getting together and growing food or providing childcare for the neighbourhood or extended whanau. Lots of ways that people can meaningfully spend their time.
btw, I think the situation your friend was in is heinous and there is absolutely no excuse for a country like NZ to not be providing free, extenstive literacy support for all people that live here that need it.
In terms of the poverty trap/employment issues, this is tricky. In an ideal world I would support what most here talk about in terms of solutions to that. But AGW/PO/GFC issues are arriving pretty fast and we simply won’t have enough resources for everyone in NZ to live a comfortable middle class life style. Much of the narrative seems driven by chasing the middle class dream, but I’d like to see a discussion of what are basic human rights, and what are the basic human needs in NZ that can be met sustainably. We can do broad strokes pretty easily (housing, food, healthcare), but when we get down to the nitty gritty, it’s not that straightforward. Then there is the small matter of convincing the middle classes and the consumer working class that they will have to reduce their footprint and lifestyles…
(I’ve been interrupted …will respond to this though Weka)
The problem was that we left the job to “the market” which, inevitably, failed to create the work that those tertiary educated people should have been doing. To create those jobs you actually need the government to step in and fund them – just as the US and the UK does although the UK doesn’t do as well as the US. Those jobs are in R&D.
All the market will produce is more service sector jobs and there’s even a limit to those because of the needed ratio of people who need services to those who supply them must be high. Also, as productivity increases and “the market” fails to produce high paying jobs then wages in the service sector will continue to drop as less people get employed in high paying jobs.
A Universal Income.
“A Universal Income.”
Yes, as an ideal. However I’m increasingly of the opinion that we no longer have the possibility of intelligent state level change before the full force of AGW/PO/GFC hits. By contrast, changing approaches to the unemployed seems somewhat doable.
“Those jobs are in R&D.”
Someone still has to clean the toilets though, and there is no need for a degree education for that. Plus there are more jobs needed than R and D could usefully supply. Lots of other jobs that don’t need a 3 year degree to be learnt and done well.
But there is in developing machinery to remove the need for someone to clean toilets.
Incorrect. R&D is a job and a necessary one. It is R&D that will research and develop our economy to be sustainable.
Besides, a society where there is only work is a rather boring society – we need time to relax and socialise as well.
I don’t think it is possible to replace all jobs with machines (and am yet to see a machine cleaned toilet that works well).
“Incorrect. R&D is a job and a necessary one. It is R&D that will research and develop our economy to be sustainable.”
Please reread what I wrote, because I didn’t way that R and D is not a necessity.
Not yet but that’s why we have R&D.
No, you said that it won’t supply all jobs but I disagree. If people don’t have a job then they should be in R&D or Arts & Craft rather than being shunted onto the unemployment benefit. The only way that this can happen though is if the government funds it. My preferred scenario would be for people to continually switch between R&D and practical work while engaging in continual learning.
But not everyone on the dole is going to want to do R and D or be suited to it. (And you didn’t say Arts and Craft first time round). Why limit to R and D or Arts and Craft?
I suppose it also depends on what you mean by R and D, and why you would separate it out. For instance, many gardeners I know practice R and D, but not formally. Are you suggesting that people on the dole could formalise that somehow rather than becoming gardeners themselves?
It is actually a little hard to understand what point you are trying to make, Weka.
First you supply arguments that prize Idiots would say, then you start promoting accepting unemployment, that education has been ‘tried before’ and failed [?] and toilet cleaning requires no education.
You really are starting to sound like our dear leaders, wanting everyone dumbed down and cleaning toilets.
Having read previous comments of yours I doubt that this is what you are intending. So what are you meaning?
I am well aware there are important jobs that are absolutely necessary like growing food for instance or – I’ll humour you – cleaning toilets and that these jobs may not require PHD’s or anything like that, however this is not a good reason to pay low wages or to accept decreasing job opportunities or to obstruct education opportunities for these people but this government has done so Please remember that adult education funds were stopped completely. [Unsure if it was completely or severely cut]
Obstructing education for others who may not be capable of physically demanding jobs and leaving them on welfare is a truly unenlightened approach that successive governments have been taking.
As others have mentioned, there is actually more to education than an issue of employment – I guess I did start that line off – however I did ask [somewhat rhetorically] what advantage is there in obstructing people from education – how is it serving anyone or NZ as a whole? By which I meant I see no advantage and conversely many advantages to encouraging education.
[DTB & co below provided a few advantages to leaving people in the dark; namely advantage for those who are at the top of the [shit] heap.]
You have the ability to write and reason and express yourself because someone taught you these things and somewhere along the line someone taught you the value of reasoning. I very much dislike that there are a fair few New Zealanders who are being obstructed and I would go so far as saying they are being discouraged from the opportunity to do just that.
The more people who are educated or trained in skilled work, the more likely that new ideas and new ways of doing things will arise. Limiting education is a fast-track to a limited and blinkered society – which is exactly what we appear to be developing at present.
Well I agree with much of what you write on these issues bl. And no, what you think I am saying is not what I am saying. What I am saying is what results when you put the issues you raise into the context of AGW/PO/GFC. There IS no recovery from those things, we are on a hiding to nothing if we ignore that fact. The things you are arguing for are all good and true, I just don’t believe they are possible now in the timeframes we have left.
To pick up the point of promoting unemployment, I think there are sound radical strategic reasons for doing so, as a response to the very power structures you abhor. Getting everyone a good education and a good job will perpetuate the power structures and increase our AGW and Peak Everything problems.
I do count myself very fortunate to have the critical thinking mind and expression skills I have, but they didn’t come from formal education. I suppose part of this discussion for me is that I don’t rate tertiary education that highly, in its present form. I do agree with you on the absolute necessity of equity of access, but I also believe that we would all be better off with less academia and more community based skills and knowledge learning.
AFAIK adult education (‘night classes’) funding has been cut. Hard to see that as anything other than the rightwing neoliberal power and control agenda. I’m just not looking to the govt for solutions to these things now. We have many, many skilled people in our communities to learn from. Time we developped new models of how to do that. If we get Labour/GP govt next year I would love to see education overhauled. Won’t be holding my breath though.
My point about cleaning toilets is that there are lots of jobs that don’t need formal education (but do need skill and training). I just dislike this whole idea that tertiary education is ‘higher’ than other things. (We should of course pay toilet cleaners really well, given the nature of the job). My mother was a nurse for many years, started in the 1950s. She learnt how to do that by working in a hospital and afaik got paid for it. Now if she were 18 again, she would have to spend 3 years at polytech and come out with a $15,000 debt to pay back before she could get a job as a nurse. There are definitely some advantages to society of the professionalisation of nursing education, but there are losses too.
I, personally, can’t think of any limits to those.
I think people will surprise you and that’s fine anyway – they just get to do the jobs that people who do want to do R&D are no longer doing.
A system where what they do is recorded, what they find out is shared and what they do is formally recognised.
The present system is the problem and it needs to be removed. I’m not someone who is fond of getting an education to meet the requirements of a job. I think people should get and education that matches their interests and then be encouraged/supported into working to those interests.
1.) Nursing has changed a bit since the 1950s so it’s better to get them trained before they do the practical stuf
2.) We’re the ones that want nurses so why are they the ones that have to pay for the training?
The last bit I completely agree with. The rest is a bit too abstract for me sorry.
Cheers for the clarification Weka,
I can see what you mean regarding the GFC and you have a point. Hopefully not an insurmountable problem – yet definitely a challenge. Have been suspecting that is why people are accepting the lies of this government – expecting the numbers to be bad and not really being discerning as to whether there has been damage and debt created by this government as it is all being ‘put down to’ the financial crisis and/or earthquake.
I did not assume that it was formal training that lead to your ability to think – just that it is likely that someone has influenced you in that way. I do not know, but suspect reasoned thinking is something we are taught – is not something that we just develop of our own accord. Might be parents, friends, books or teachers (T.V unlikely!).
It is not my experience that University perpetuates power structures, despite there being a commonly held view to the contrary. Being taught to reason and question undermines blind following of our accepted power-structures, although that will depend on the subject – technical subjects not so much! – I am in little doubt that this aspect is why ‘higher’ learning is not being encouraged for all socio-economic groups.
I do also including skills training (polytech-style) in my references to education it may not be quite as focussed on reasoning, that comes into it, however learning new skills always deepens one’s understanding of how one’s society/environment functions in one way or another and broadens one’s horizons.
Bit of another annoyance for me re what you relay about the nursing! I have heard that myself and how there is less on-the-job training and more courses which one pays for (where one used to be paid for such training) – viewed as bit of a scam by my elders – probably quite correctly so!
Yes, pressuring everyone to get a uni education in order to get a good job was a bit of a con nd/or ill thought out.
But education should be available to those who wan it – and not necessarily for any direct relevance to getting a job – education to participate in society and democracy.
Adult education and the Workers Education Association did a great job once – education in the broadest sense.
“Education” is far more than just job training.
We are in a time where we need to be re-emphasising the arts, culture, history and community, as a way of transforming peoples’ lives and giving them a renewed voice.
““Education” is far more than just job training.”
Not anymore in NZ
“We are in a time where we need to be re-emphasising the arts, culture, history and community, as a way of transforming peoples’ lives and giving them a renewed voice.”
Yes, and I’d put civics and how to grow and cook your own food high on the list of things most people should learn.
Practical do it yourself and applied skills for improving home, family and community life are of utmost importance, yes.
I’m not convinced by the education for everyone as a solution to unemployment argument.
I am not talking of a one solution fits all approach – unclear how you get that from what I write. If any solution offered has to fix all problems for all people, we really will get nowhere – and might I suggest this might be why nothing is improving. No one section of societies’ issues are addressed because someone has decided that a solution has to fix all problems for all and therefore no problems are being addressed!
Karol’s comment picks up what I was saying – ‘for those who want an education’ was the operative clause for the point I was trying to make.
I am not promoting some sort of forced education idea, I am well aware that some people are not into higher learning and others are. There are possibly more who are into some form of training (as opposed to ‘higher learning’) yet have not been in a good set of circumstances to consider it an option. I have the impression that there are more people who would benefit from [some form of] education than who take it up. Those programmes on TV that show people in prisons who have finally made the plunge and are thriving is an example of this.
We hear on a regular basis that ‘we must upskill’, blah blah ‘knowledge economy’ blah blah. What utter rot this talk is. There is no serious attempt to make education available to all who want it I get more help to go into seasonal work than I ever have going into study. Is that what taxpayers want? People who can and will study but cannot agree to the debt therefore get a couple of extra hundred dollars each year to go into seasonal work and when that dries up end up back on welfare? Or is it better that people go into minimum wage jobs and get supplements for their wages, accommodation, additional help with difficult weeks etc?
It is a bit tricky offering ‘what someone else would say’ to the options taxpayers have. Sure there are some that will argue the point to cut welfare completely – but is this really a serious option? Haven’t you noticed the complete dearth of political parties offering this as a choice at election time? Too many landlords and business people advantaged by this welfare system for that to be a winner. Add this to the many people who really do know the advantage to society in having welfare and all parties know such a policy would be a fast-track into the opposition benches.
I am inclined toward DTB’s response re your comments of ‘its been done before’. I don’t really think there has been any real effort at addressing the interests of the people for a long long time – mostly it has been corporate interests wrapped up in huge amounts of spin – which works all too effectively in a society that increasingly appears to denigrate intelligence and learning.
Yes I daresay the GFC is affecting the way people feel about helping people out of poverty-traps. This is sad, however because the GFC wouldn’t have been able to occur had wealth disparity been knocked on the head from the outset. The problem we have in general and the GFC in particular is damaging policies that go against peoples’ interests are being pushed through because some ‘persons’ have huge political clout due to the vast sums of money they have available to them. Read up on how the debt of those banks were allowed to get so large – there used to be rules about how much debt a bank took on. Find out why commercial banks and investment banks protective separation was removed (separated from the high risk investment banks so ordinary people’s money was safer) and the reasons shadow banking came into existence. I think you will discover that people with too much clout from having more money than sense or compassion are behind such phenomena.
Not having the money is just not the issue – how the money is being shared out is the issue.
I’m unclear why anyone would ‘agree to unemployment’ there are plenty of things to be done, so why are so many people doing things for free or not got jobs at all while others are overworked or have money coming out of their ears and are finding ever more complex ways of how to invest their wealth risk-free or have got such large incomes that they spend much time pretending they haven’t got anything in order to avoid paying their large tax-bills?
This comment has got far too long and I haven’t even got onto the Universal wage …
One section is being addressed – the profiteers. All policies for the last thirty years have been to address the falling rate of profit.
I stand corrected one section of society are having their interests addressed.
Jolly marvellous! I feel so much better knowing that. 😐
[do I need to add a /sarc here…..]
Well educated unemployed people with loads of student debt and no jobs to be found. Not helpful. Debt is a major way the financial elite use to demand compliance from countries, cities and individuals, forcing them to work compliantly at the capitalist coal face earning for shareholders and bond holders.
Yes the money must be shared about more evenly, but that won’t solve the fundamental medium term problem: the material and energy resources we have built our global civilisation on are rapidly depleting.
??This comment of yours really surprises me CV
The medium term problems of resources won’t be solved unless those who have captured this system have less clout.
Those who have captured this system have done so through having oodles more wealth than the rest of us and are using the power that wealth brings them for political purposes for their own private gain.
Wealth disparity is a very serious issue
I agree with your remarks: wealth disparity is a very serious issue.
But in a neolib cum neo-feudal reconfiguration, formal education is no answer, just a diversion, and a way of loading up the young with debt.
The end result gives the established and wealthy more clout over the young and indebted.
I agree and I think we are past the point where we can solve this problem politically. In an ideal world we would work towards free and equal access to education of all kinds. However if we focus on resource disparity we lose sight of the fact that resources are finite and dwindling. While I think that destroying the power structures that create and perpetuate inequity is important (and I don’t think this should stop), I do have to wonder if the real solutions to poverty at this point aren’t at the local level. With the education issue, we could spend alot of effort trying to get a left wing govt to reinstate free education and broaden out what the means again. Or, we could support local communities to educate themselves in the context of Peak Everything.
Bl, having said that, I appreciate your dilemma of seasonal work and the need for educational opportunities to find ways out of that trap. Do you see other ways as well as conventional education?
So what we need to do is to get rid of that debt and the way to do that would be to change the banking system so that such debt cannot be built up at all.
Get rid of the hold that the rich have over everyone else and we can start to be a community again.
“But in a neolib cum neo-feudal reconfiguration, formal education is no answer, just a diversion, and a way of loading up the young with debt.”
Just a diversion? How can you say this? Hasn’t your name a number of letters behind it? Was it really merely a diversion for you?
Perhaps you have a particular subject in mind? I have only ever found learning (self taught from decent books or formal) as extremely enhancing to my life and thinking.
I have met SO many people who have degrees and discourage others from doing the same. They do not appear to realise what the learning has done for them – yet it has done rather a lot.
“So what we need to do is to get rid of that debt and the way to do that would be to change the banking system so that such debt cannot be built up at all.
Get rid of the hold that the rich have over everyone else and we can start to be a community again.”
Good luck with that. And in the meantime?
“And in the meantime?”
Go to Uni or polytech or read some good books
“I have met SO many people who have degrees and discourage others from doing the same. They do not appear to realise what the learning has done for them – yet it has done rather a lot.”
Fair point. Myself, I’ve been to polytech twice. The first time was great (and free) and I learnt some pretty decent practical skills that I still use 25 years later. The second time cost me alot on many levels. It was much more academic, and much of that was a waste of my time (it did enhance my thinking skills because it was so bad that I had to develop more critical thinking to cope. So I guess your point stands, although I think most people believe education should be a positive experience). I didn’t graduate from the second course.
I wonder if you hear so many graduates being discouraging because for many tertiary education lacks so much and costs so much (at the undergrad level at least. I gather post-grad can be more rewarding).
“Go to Uni or polytech or read some good books”
Already cram as much into my brain as will fit 😉
Plus, while the bankers run the world and Draco is figuring out how to take them down, I can’t afford tertiary education and so am getting on with other means (which proves your point and mine I guess).
This is a democracy so perhaps we should vote the fuckers out.
Put simply, vote for a political party that will remove their hold over us. This means not voting for political parties will keep things the same.
Keep learning, keep teaching others how they’re being ripped off by the banks and the capitalists.
“This is a democracy so perhaps we should vote the fuckers out.”
By that argument, we can carry on with neoliberal governments like we have for the past 30 years. Voting holds the line, but I doubt it will effect the real change needed. Plus we don’t have time to shift NZ far enough left to effect that change even were it possible. We need additional strategies.
BL. I stand by my comments. You’re thinking of a kind of education which barely exists any more, not the kind of education today which merely teaches people how to serve the system, instead of critiquing and changing it.
As for having a particular subject in mind: I’ll answer with a question. At your local university which faculty has been the most progressive and effective in fighting against the neoliberal agenda? Choose that subject – if it exists.
“..At your local university which faculty has been the most progressive and effective in fighting against the neoliberal agenda?..?
Weka I agree completely: Parliamentary politics can help hold the line and perhaps make a couple of incremental improvements (maybe). Its extra-parliamentary activity mostly focused at a local level which can make a big difference.
Therefore I would ask you to consider using a far wider definition of “politics”. In a pervasive corporate consumer culture, the mere act of making a gift instead of buying it, of going to Church or your favored place of contemplation instead of the Westfield shopping slum, these are in of themselves value statements with an undoubted political dimension. 95% of the real politics happening in this country has nothing to do with MPs.
Philip Ure: exactly. So this is where I feel BLs idea of gaining another qualification or studying another subject, formally at least, will come to nothing.
No 4 year NZ university degree can even touch what you can learn on The Standard in 6 months.
Nice to be on the same page CV 🙂 That’s pretty much my definition of politics too.
One of the things I’d like to see on ts is a broadening out from central govt and party politics to discussion of how to be effective at the local level as well (and I don’t mean Local Govt). We have a wealth of resource here in authors and commenters, perhaps that can be applied. Although I guess next year will be dominated by the election.
@ CV I question your framing of what I’ve been writing about re education – Are you referring to my “Go to Uni, read a book” comment? I thought Weka’s comment about “what should we do in the meantime” was rather funny and the response was an attempt at humour (hence the smiley face) Think it might have fallen flat.
Any course of study that teaches research methods – statistics and/or reasoned thought and justifying one’s reasoning, and creating a confidence in a students’ own line of reasoning helps against the neo-liberal agenda because quickly one can see that there is a lot of false logic, assumptions – unjustified memes – lack of research that is being pressed upon us through our media sources and in our communities – media studies teaches one to be ‘objective’ as does any subject that teaches the tools of the trade – because once you learn them you see through the tricks that such trades use in order to be effective.
Framing the question as seeking out “a faculty that has been the most progressive and effective in fighting against the neoliberal agenda?” is therefore a question designed to make the reader conclude “there are none” : i.e. there may be no one department that has taken on an activist approach toward the shite we are being fed – however there are many faculties that are teaching critical thinking skills that will lead to the same place.
The strength neo-liberalism has is it’s ability to con – the ability to send out false information and false logic on matters of our society – if one is learning established information – historical context, how to apply statistics correctly, media study – even marketing – one starts easily being able to see through the bullshit we are being fed. I would guess that the worst subject would be economics, they may still teach certain techniques such as supply and demand that have been thoroughly undermined in a manner that they no longer function as expected – however I view that there are many subjects that teach the skills one requires to be immune to being conned.
I would take it that those with power in the world at present would far rather that people did not learn the skills that University or any form of learning provide because an educated public would not be as easily fooled, easily manipulated and compliant as our polls suggest we are.
I think you really take for granted what an education has given you and your message appears to be that it is and was a waste of time. Is this what you are meaning to convey??
What one Grey Power president did in 2011.
It seems that the government of the day listened and did nothing.
2014 is election year and this should be an election issue.
Thanks for the reminder, Phillip Ure.
..this one really pisses me off..so i’ll be bringing it up regularly over the next yr..
..to me it couldn’t be a clearer example of how this govt just doesn’t fucken care..
..60 yrs old..?..got glaucoma..?..need a simple operation to save yr sight..?
..got no money to pay for private..?
..then get fucked..!..go blind..!
(and on a cynical/political note..lab/grns would harvest grey-votes by promising to fix this..and other arbitrary cut-off dates for help..)
..and how could that not be a better example of new zealand life in 2013..after 30 yrs of randite/neo-lib policies..
..the ‘labour’ party wants to increase the pension age to 67..to make workers work to the age of 67..
..and yet if any of those workers develop glaucoma @ age 60…the govt says ‘tough shit!’..
..this is the current state of our shredded social contract..
..and do labour already have policies to fix this..?
…if not..why not..?
..not at all tardy in rushing out that pension age or gst raise promise/threat..eh..?
..can i just say slowly..?..that it would seem/going on actions/words to date..that..
..that new year policy-announcement had better be good..
Crap. So now I’m over 60, but I also have been told I need to get regular checks for glaucoma because my mother had it – strong chance I’ll get it, but it needs to be caught early.
Has to be brain dead doesn’t it. Anybone with poor eye sight will require a lot eatra in supporting services which cost money…
Agreed, Redbaron. And I checked online: the people most likely to get glaucoma are the people over 60 years – and treating it early gets the best results.
And South East Asian people are one of the ethnic groups most likely to get it, plus 3 times more women get it than men
– who made the decision to stop funding glaucoma treatment to the over 60s again?
I wonder who decided. & looking at my typing do I need an eyesight test?
It serves the rich and powerful because people who aren’t well educated don’t know enough to take apart the lies that they’re being told. Basically, it helps the few to become richer at everyone else’s expense.
Which is one of the major reasons I am railing against the as-least-as-possible-knowledge (or unknowledge) economy that we appear to be developing.
My comment above appears to have been deviated into framing it into an argument re jobs, yet this is o.k because jobs for all would be one of the many benefits created by a society that stopped believing the utter shite we are being fed.
It also means that the children of the poor cannot compete with their overprivileged brats for the good jobs.
Also the reason for cheap, 3 R’s basic job education for the poor and a real education for the rich.
The real reason why they want to fuck up State education.
Another way of entrenching privilege.
“But I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they’re getting ****** by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago.
“You know what they want? Obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.”
A prophet of our times.
yes, ‘they’ appear to be doing a marvellous job of it in New Zealand….
“a 2007 report by PricewaterhouseCoopers for the Adult Community Education organization. It concluded the estimated national economic gain of this type of adult education is in the range of $4.8 billion to $6.3 billion. Not bad for a government investment of just $16 million per year.”
Johnathan Coleman waxing lyrical in 2007
By waxing lyrical I mean lying to the electorate
Wow. interesting that the stats are out there.
Great link Tracey,
…and he went on to vote the removal of the funds for these adult learners…
Where are these peoples’ heads at??
Firstly, they’re not interested in nation building or strengthening the social or economic fabric of the country.
Ironic when Clark govt were looking at closing down small rural night classes because of poor attendence Blinglish ripped into the govt saying if you close these night classe down you will damage the social cohesion of these communities .
Blinglish’s hypocracy soon as he gets his hands on the till he cut all night school funding.
Just another double dipping double dealing dipstick.
Got a link for that?
Right wing trolls like you never feel the need to support outlandish opinions with either reason or supporting evidence. Do you suddenly believe in the need for it?
Might this do Piss73 ?
Or this Piss73 ?
Got a link to refute any part of what [email protected] had to say above Piss73 or are you just being dishonest again ?
You ain’t ? Well never mind…….maybe Blinglish can give us one.
Oh hang on……….from the Stuff article above………”Mr English did not return requests for comment last week.”
There are only a few days of this year left in which to stop being your usual dumbfuck self Piss73.
You still haven’t explained what you meant by this North:
“You’re a nutter Piss73. Give the missus a serious seeing to when she got home late with the Maccers dinner and no dipping sauce didya ?”
Will you ever explain it or are you just a coward?
If you cannot figure that out Chris73 you need to go back to school, i suggest you start at kindergarten…
In that case I’d like to know why he thinks I would give my wife a hiding (assuming thats what hes referring to) and why he thinks accusing someone of violence towards women is ok simply because he disagrees with my views
Piss73………good of you to say “(assuming thats what hes referring to)” – [apostrophes please].
Some Very-Un-Crosby-Textor like acknowledgment there Piss73. Still 5 days left to complete the reformation.
But please Piss73, back to the matter of the “link”. Coward ?
How about acknowledging that Bill English is indeed the political point scoring fixated double-dealer that Tricledrown was describing.
Funny how this ‘just opposing for political point scoring’ is what National in parliament regularly accuse every other party of doing. Hypocrites.
I responded tricledrown below
Your comment to Tricledrown hasn’t acknowledged the sad fact of the matter, re English’s nature, however you did have a decent response, which I didn’t see, sorry – cheers for pointing it out.
There are certainly some tacks in the boots you borrowed to walk 20 miles to vote Tory what, Piss73 ?
Get over the vacuity defining your skull cavity insufferable cargo-cult snob you.
Zooming round in the Vitara you acknowledge you’re stuck with while asprayshuns to the Land Cruiser or whatever you wanked on about remain unrealised on Planet Key.
While the missus trudges home on foot with the Maccers sans dipping sauce, quelle horreur.
Let it go KeyStoned Kupapa.
Its a very simple question:
Do you think accusing someone of bashing their wife is acceptable
Yes or No
You are now hardout charging that that’s what I said Piss73 ? So you’ve gone back on “(assuming thats what hes referring to)”. Please Piss73…….make up your mind. Pick your line of bullshit and stick with it for much longer before you tack off. The duration of one thread is way too quick.
Very Un-Crosby-Textor of you Piss73.
Being that you won’t answer my original question as to what you meant when you posted this:
“You’re a nutter Piss73. Give the missus a serious seeing to when she got home late with the Maccers dinner and no dipping sauce didya ?”
I can only assume you were saying I commit violence on my wife
But what really happened is you posted something you didn’t mean to (maybe got a bit over-excited) and instead of owning up to it you just dance around the subject instead of coming out and saying it was a thoughtless and dumb comment
But by all means continue your attempts at obfuscation
You keep insisting that he answer your “original question” but apparently his question came before yours.
Perhaps you should answer first, just so it doesn’t look like you’re being hypocritical.
Also, your interpretation is entirely your own. I’ve never heard anyone use “seeing to” as a description of violence.
Seriously? Well ok then (just so I’m mot accused of being a hypocrite)
“You’re a nutter Piss73. Give the missus a serious seeing to when she got home late with the Maccers dinner and no dipping sauce didya ?”
– No I did not
Also, your interpretation is entirely your own. I’ve never heard anyone use “seeing to” as a description of violence.
– It doesn’t really make sense then does it: come home late (bad) and without sauce (bad) is more likely a set up towards domestic violence
Only in your mind are those things a logical precursor to violence. No-one else seems to be making the connection.
(except you, pretty much daily).
When I first saw the comment I thought it implied Chris was capable of violence. I still do. Given his occasional macho posturing and what I recall is an expressed liking of guns and the military, that’s not to big a leap to make, but it didn’t need to expressed like that.
The way I read the comment was that the ‘no dipping sauce’ would be an excuse for anger, followed by a ‘seeing to’. It didn’t occur to me then that the violence might be sexual, but it does now.
To Te Reo Putake:
Thats fine to think that based on comments I’ve made as long as you realise I’ve never and would never abuse my wife
After seeing what my mom went through its something I would never do and as such I may be a bit touchy around the subject
“Thats fine to think that based on comments I’ve made as long as you realise I’ve never and would never abuse my wife”
Why should anyone realise that? “You” are nothing but a pseudonym on a blog. You can say you’ve never driven drunk or kicked a dog or injected meth into your penis if you like, but none of those statements are testable so none of them count.
Same goes for being married, being in the military, or any of the other stories you tell. None of it is testable so none of it counts for anything.
Keep protesting “your” innocence all you like but it does seem like protesting a bit much for someone who doesn’t really exist in any meaningful way.
I acknowledge that you have successfully diverted the conversation after having been proven completely wrong, however this conversation is really getting bizarre.
Perhaps you could have provided a link to the comment that you are quoting of North and then perhaps North might have had the good grace to explain it?
I have to agree with TRP and Tracey (below) what you quoted sounded like an accusation of violence, and I think it is perfectly sane to not to want to be accused of wife bashing and really that wish requires no further explanation about background etc. It should be honoured.
Felix, what are you trying to prove here? That you are prepared to argue a point no matter how ridiculous it is?
Nope, I’m trying to prove exactly what I wrote: That no-one gets to make unverifiable claims online about their real lives from under the cloak of pseudonymity and have them taken seriously.
I don’t think accusing someone of bashing their wife is acceptable.
I don’t think someone bashing their wife is acceptable.
I don’t think neoliberal economics are acceptable.
I don’t think a Labour party that still only goes as far as promising a few crumbs while people like Goff, Parker, and Mallard are cheerleaders for neoliberalism and Rogernomics is acceptable.
Chris73, I think you spout a load of rubbish and have no idea why you bother, but I have no reason to suspect that you bash your wife.
Murray, thank you so much for expressing what I have been thinking about this very sorry ongoing saga. I have felt really sad about this saga, but did not want to get involved.
Give it away people, you and we – and the TS – do not need it. Chris may have different views to most of us here, but let us not descent to the Sewer’s standards for interaction.
Interesting – good to have reminders like that one Tricledrown
It just seems like politicians have lost the plot and no longer consider the interests of New Zealanders as their main focus, rather pathetic point scoring seems to be what they believe their role in society is.
What a complete waste of money it is paying such misguided airheads.
I used to reserve some respect for politicians, acknowledging how hard it is to please everyone – however I am fast losing this attitude. Let’s face it, it is not rocket science to address the main needs of society; they are simply refusing to do it.
Yes Blue Leopard you’re right – look at the current nutting on about the “stronger economy”. Designed to conceal that ShonKey Python is a repatriated robber baron whose “business” is to deliver NZ to the mostly foreign sometimes domestic super rich.
Begs the question “Whose fucking economy ?”.
Oh don’t worry, no answer needed. Especially when eagerly assisted by dumbfuck cargo-cultist soldiers/trolls the likes of Piss73.
To whom honest acknowledgment is as quaintly silly a concept as it is to the government funded lie machine Crosby Textor.
That is a question all parties on the left need to keep asking and then finish with the point that it’s our economy and not that of the rich or the politicians.
Yes DTB & North
That is a good question. I shall be repeating that question from time to time (read ad infinitum) me thinks.
New Years Resolution for 2014: Wake up to the Methane Bomb
“From 2007 (location d on Figure 13) the mean atmospheric methane exceeded 1785 – 1795 ppb and increased at a much faster rate than the atmospheric carbon dioxide. This confirms that in 2007, the subsea Arctic Ocean methane clathrate gun began to fire a continuous volley of methane into the Arctic atmosphere (Figure 13, position d) and that we are now power diving into extinction by the Mid 21st Century unless we take immediate and drastic action to remove large volumes of methane from the atmosphere.”
C73 I listened to parliament the day he made his plea.
The Cult of greed who think theyare more deserving than those in need.
Fair enough, he should be asked if he stands by those comments in the house
Can i come out of hiding now, is that christmas thing over, if i hear a supposedly mature adult paid 100’s of 1000’s of dollars to read the news tell me that ‘there is only one more sleep to Santa’ again i swear i will not be responsible for my actions…
Ti’s OK, bad, the MSM is back to business as usual – lots of reports about bashings, crime and violence. I guess the good will season is already done!
Oh, but good news is, lots of Boxing Day sales. And foodbanks and City Mission work will disappear from the news – t’is only attended to seasonally so the comfortable folks can feel charitable at Christmas.
Don’t forget Jesse Ryders (hopefully) triumphant return to the international cricket stage
So thats not working out too well at the moment…
If scoring 20’s and 30’s were key to winning international cricket matches then Ryder would be first pick in my batting line-up.
i see it all as a puke-stain on the history of humanity, having bought into a couple of gross fantasies perpetrated by the system all these men, and sometimes woman, then begin to exhibit guilt traits masked by acts of wanton violence usually spurred by that other ‘must have’ at this time of year, alcohol,
Perhaps there is need for a denialist movement where people who want to turn away from such a consumerist atrocity can gather together to teach each other to simply ignore the day,
Bishop Bad’s Denialist Church of the one and only original sin coming to a town near you…
lot of stuff coming out of area 52 today.
The rich – “Look, all those people, getting all that free food and being entertained, at places like the City Mission. Wonderful. They are sooo lucky. And here we are at home, the butler and the keep slaving away for hours just to feed us dears for lunch. Oh, where’s the bolly, luv, I need a top up.”
Yes, overnight the plight of the poor will disappear from the face of society as the media focuses on the “Boxing Day” sales, as if this is a great benefit to the nation. Most of that will go on the credit card, only exacerbating the country’s debt.
Wouldn’t it be nice if Councils around the country organised community events that brought people together, in a sharing/caring environment.
Its been a great year financially for the top 20% of households. Can we not be pleased for the middle and upper class of the nation who deserve our thanks and admiration?
just listening to j colins on radio. despite coming fron a party that says you cant define poverty she says her grandmother raised 7 children alibe in rural nz in the 20s ” i poverty” so one minister can defibe poverty.
collibs mother was denied secondary school to help on the farm and ensured her own children got education. i note collins law degree was free with no loan…
interestibg how nat mps use the hardship poverty card to nake it seem like they ubderstand while kicking ladders away right left and ctre.
that collins has turned into an uncaring rightwinger..
..who doesn’t give a flying fuck about those one in four new zealand children currently living in the miseries of poverty..
..says what about her..?
i took “seeing to” to mean sex. either way the comment was imo appalling and has no place.
Either way I’d just like to know why he said it, people can say what they like about me and thats fine but to drag my wife into it and accuse me beating her (which is how I took it) is way below the belt
You’re the only person here who has written about beating your wife.
And you do it with monotonous regularity.
Collins mother would have not been able to give her a good education.
Without labour govt reforms.
selective amnesia is a common trait of those wholean to the right
Has no place Tracey ? Agreed.
What has no place ? A comment on which you stamp your meaning and then launch it as mine ? The meaning is yours. I agree. No place.
This is the hoary old chestnut Piss73 trots out every time he’s in a tight spot. For the most recent instance have a look at 5 to 126.96.36.199 above. Sneeringly demands a link , gets it, uh oh, hoary old chestnut time again.
Piss73 – what was it Harry Truman said about kitchens and heat ?
“The Happiest Christmas of All” from His Master’s Voice
…and they will call him Immanuel (meaning ‘God with us’) Matthew 1:23.
Maybe… we shall live again
All the best for the coming year, John.
ps, catch 22. 😀
if someone cant dialogue with someone they disagree with without resorting to nasty fiction they have to accept how that makes them look. playing the person not the ball achieves nothing but perpetuates the bs. violence toward women is real and serious and not to be belittled by childlike outbursts on a forum.
Whatever Tracey. Indulge yourself with more of YOUR meaning if it makes you feel good. I never owned YOUR meaning. Do I speak loudly enough for those ears of yours way up there on that high horse ?
North, your a fucking moron. Simple as that. You abuse everyone. Trying to mash how simple minded and uneducated you really are
Mash ??? Chur !!!
Let us (including the hair triggered Tracey) not forget that you Confused, Piss73, Tighty Righty, BM, SS-Lands et al have made a bloody career on TS out of demonising and scandalising. Aggressively prosyletising for hatred against the poor for their insistence (by their mere existence) on sabotaging ShonKey Python’s Brighter Future (ahem).
Variously lazy, fat, live-off -takeaways, irresponsible, plenty of jobs if you want them, stop the underclass breeding, etc etc etc ad absurdum. Scum the lot of them.
This quote from the old boy on Dads Army is so apposite re you and your mates Confused – “………they do not like it up ’em!”
Tough for you, hypocritical wee soldiers of the Prime Mournister. Grow up and learn to take some of your own medicine without clutching your pearls in the mortified style of Dame Edna Everidge.
I’m prepared to punt Confused……..don’t flirt with “simple minded” and “uneducated”. Those particular horses might kick you back very hard.
Been on the White mans fire water again, north?
Do yourself a favor, bro and stick to the milk don’t want you going all Jake the Muss like and getting yourself in trouble.
Amen – Ahem – Our betters the weirdos are out tonight – Love it.
You should probably pass around your gear so we can both get on the same high so I can understand you.
While the newspapers and other media outlets bang on about and how your successful christmas depends on you consuming massive amounts of food and buying loads of shit for people I like to take a moment every year and play Tim Minchin’s White Wine in the Sun
It’s always how this atheist has felt (since I was 15 and old enough to drink with my parents), and have never been able to articulate properly, until Tim came along and said it more perfectly than I ever could.
brilliant song, thanks.
..that minchin song is very cool..
..i posted it @ whoar some days back..
but doesn’t ‘amazing grace’ do it for you too..there..naturesong..?
Global Warming/ climate change ,BUGGER.
Stuck in the ice, it must have been warmer 100 year ago
”The 30-year-old vessel is part of the Australasian Antarctic Expedition, a voyage organised by a group of scientists to mark the 100-year anniversary of a similar trip by Australian explorer Sir Douglas Mawson.
“After all day yesterday pushing through dense pack ice we came to a point where we could go no further, the ice sheet was unbroken and several metres thick. Today has been frustrating, by this afternoon we were only a few kilometres west of where we had been 24 hours previously.”
Help is on the way.
This lot must believe their own Bull.
Ah yes, by all means ignore the bigger picture. Climate change means that the make-up and positioning of the Antarctic ice sheets are different from the way they were 100 years ago.
Climate denialists – clinging on to one iceberg as the world around them disintegrates.
Have you read the Science on this or is one story about a boat getting trapped in ice your evidence for climate change not occurring?
Saw this excellent article which could be linked to to great post Karol made the other day on ‘Not the Brighter Future.’
“Brainwashed by the cult of the super-rich.”
Some key quotes from this article for us in New Zealand.
“What we’ve been realising for some time now is that, for all the team sport rhetoric, only two sides are really at play in Britain and beyond: Team Super-Rich and Team Everyone Else.”
“The rich are not merely different: they’ve become a cult which drafts us as members. We are invited to deceive ourselves into believing we are playing for the same stakes while worshipping the same ideals, a process labelled “aspiration”. ”
” The adulation of royalty is not a harmless anachronism; it is calculated totem worship that only entrenches the bizarre notion that some people are rich simply because they are more deserving but somehow they are still just like us.”
“Cults rely on spectacles of opulence intended to stoke an obsessive veneration for riches.”
“Cue the predictable charge of “class envy” or what Boris Johnson dismisses as “bashing or moaning or preaching or bitching”. Issued by its high priests, this brand of condemnation is integral to the cult of the rich. We must repeat the mantra that the greed of a few means prosperity for all. ”
“Cultish thinking means that the stupendously rich who throw small slivers of their fortunes at charity… … become instant saints.”
“The cult of the rich propounds the idea that vast economic inequalities are both natural and just: the winner who takes most is, like any cult hero, just more intelligent and deserving, even when inherited affluence gives them a head start.”
“The demonising of the poor is the flip side of the cult of the rich.”
” It is time to change it through reality checks, not reality shows.”
As commentators on the article pointed out it is a complex problem. But a rally cry is needed and this is it. One solution to inequality is to make capital’s return worth less and labour’s return worth more. A person’s very existence can be valued in providing a universal basic income. Society is wealthy enough to do this. The evidence is the excessive consumption and wealth. Wealth needs to be redistributed more evenly.
I continue to be amazed at how the constant dangling of the carrot of more money is enough for people to vote against their own best interests. In some case for decades.
I continue to be amazed at how the constant dangling of the carrot of more money is enough for people to vote against their own best interests. In some case for decades.