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Open mike 27/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 27th, 2020 - 185 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

185 comments on “Open mike 27/10/2020 ”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    Here is some great reporting on a fantastic Left wing victory in Bolivia from The Grey Zone…which is just as well as most MSM don't seem interested in giving this any coverage ar all…in fact I don't think RNZ has even mentioned it, thought we all get to know every single little detail about the US supreme courts from them for some unknown reason?

  2. Morrissey 2

    [deleted]

    [you have to make clear what are your words and what is a cut and paste. As a mod I am over editing these, just deleting now where the commenter should know better – weka]

    • Adrian Thornton 2.1

      Well Adelson's investment has been very successful indeed. The public massacre Palestinian March of Return protesters with zero push back from any MSM including the so called liberal media has proved this beyond a doubt.

      "The UN's humanitarian body OCHA reported a total of 271 Palestinian fatalities and 29,187 injuries in the past year in Gaza, the majority during Great March of Return protests – tallying from March 30, 2018 – March 22, 2019."

      https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/killed-for-protesting-6-things-to-know-about-the-great-return-march/

      It seems that Palestinian lives have no value to gutless western media whatsoever.

    • Morrissey 2.2

      Weka, I headed that brief extract with the words "Asa Winstanley on the repulsive Trump donor Sheldon Adelson". I then linked to the article. I'm sorry if it was unclear.

      • weka 2.2.1

        Yes, I'm sure it seemed clear to you, but mods have to read a huge amount on site and if I have to stop and try and figure out what is going on it cuts into my time for doing other things like writing posts. I will help people struggling with formatting or the tech, but for commenters who have been here a long time and know better, I’m just not willing to spend any more time on it. There was no easy way to tell that the first sentence was also a cut and paste rather than your words.

        use the quote tags,

        Cut and pasted long text

        Or some other way of making the quote clearly differentiated from your own words.

        Cut and pasted long text.

        “Cut and pasted short text”

        <<<
        Old school cut and pasted text from when there were not tags (or still on FB)
        <<<

        Edited.

      • Incognito 2.2.2

        In other words, more of your own words and less of other people’s words, combined with proper formatting 😉

        • swordfish 2.2.2.1

          more of your own words and less of other people’s words

          Yeah, but there's a good argument to be made that – despite all the smoke & mirrors – there are, in fact, only 3 individuals who have ever commented on The Standard since its inception in 2008 … Lynn Prentice, Greg Presland & Ianmac … with all the rest of us being the mere glove puppet creations of one of those 3 individuals … we've all been painstakingly crafted & designed to entertain & mislead any unsuspecting members of the public who inadvertantly happen upon the site & its associated Posts & threads.

          I'm, for instance, a classic Ianmac glove puppet (Ian delights & specialises in creating pompous oafs with a penchant for talking dreary bollocks & lacking even a modicum of self-awareness) while you, yourself, "incognito" are very much a typically suave & sophisticated Lynn Prentice creation, with McFlock bearing all the hallmarks of the sort of colourful, irascible old Walter Brennan-style sidekick character favoured by Greg.

          All of which begs the question of what "more of your own words" actually means.

          [This, of course, suggests you can take the present comment as me (ianmac) blowing the whistle on the whole charade once & for all … Lynn & Greg won't be too happy of course … this site was, after all, one of the World's longest running Anarho-Situationist pranks … but unfortunately I (ian) grew wary of the whole thing]

          • Andre 2.2.2.1.1

            This poor puppet totally lacking in self-awareness really wants to know: who's pulling my strings, then?

          • greywarshark 2.2.2.1.2

            swordfish Self-deprecating, ironic, humourous. I think lots of things keep people putting time aside to swap ideas, pass on info, and have a little dig, express disappointment, praise, always interesting. A good addiction.

            Andre seeker after truth? And weka earnest worker panning in the goldfields, is there a gleam of something both intelligent and useful in those many words to be read and considered?

      • Adrian Thornton 2.2.3

        AAhhh, good ol' weka the frustrated camp guard back again to show who's REALLY in charge around here…LOL.

        [2 week ban for flaming and being a dick to a moderator. My instinct is just to ban you until next year, because from memory you reasonably regularly show this disdain to the people who do the work to provide a site for you to read and comment on. But in fairness to moderation and the rest of the community you can take this short ban as a warning. I would have made it a few days, but want to make it worth my while going into the back end and I’m at an utter loss as to why I should care when you patently don’t. – weka]

        • Morrissey 2.2.3.1

          BREEN: [self-pityingly] I'm sorry if it was unclear.

          weka: [patiently] Yes, I'm sure it seemed clear to you, but mods have to read a huge amount on site and if I have to stop and try and figure out what is going on it cuts into my time for doing other things like writing posts.

          Incognito: In other words, more of your own words and less of other people’s words, combined with proper formatting

          ADRIAN: AAhhh, good ol' weka the frustrated camp guard back again to show who's REALLY in charge around here…LOL.

          BREEN: Come on now, everyone. We're all friends again now. Group hug?

          Incognito: I don't think so.

          weka: Great idea! Come here, Thornton!

          BREEN: Come here, Cognito!

          Scene dissolves into pink loveliness…

          http://gif-free.com/uploads/posts/2018-02/1519648251_kissing-rabbits.gif

          • Andre 2.2.3.1.1

            Y'know, mozzie, it would save the mods a lot of aggravation and the rest of us from seeing an unedifying spectacle if you and your fellow travellers would use your own site for your circle jerks.

          • Incognito 2.2.3.1.2

            The tolerance threshold for puerile & pathetic BS is obviously higher here on TS than on KB. Do you want to find out how much higher? You’re getting very close to an answer and it will be handed to you in bold between square brackets 😉

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3

    Natrad this morning highlighting the struggles some (predominately low decile) schools are having trying to get the Ministry of Education to do their fucking job.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018770030/school-leader-says-ministry-of-education-wasted-taxpayer-money

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018770041/former-christchurch-school-board-chair-says-ministry-of-education-toxic-after-rebuild-troubles

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018770059/ministry-of-education-property-arm-broken-principal

    There is a narrative within these three interviews that deserves a serious listen.

    The usual post-earthquake repair/rebuild crap that has become normal…topped off by a rather telling interview with the principle of a low decile Porirua school.

    And here is the bureaucrat responsible or this shameful situation..

    https://www.education.govt.nz/our-work/our-role-and-our-people/our-leadership-team/

    Head of Education Infrastructure Service (EIS): Kim Shannon

    Kim is a highly experienced operational and policy leader, who has been with the Ministry since 2000. She has led significant change in the Ministry, specialising in building value, driving good business practice and high standards of public service

    Kim was involved in the early part of Christchurch’s recovery, driving the business case for the capital works programme through to Cabinet’s approval. As Head of EIS, Kim introduced the first new schools PPP (public-private partnership) in education.

    In Kim’s role of Head of Education Infrastructure Service (EIS), she is responsible for ensuring New Zealand’s schools are safe and inspiring learning environments, and oversees management of a $23.5 billion property portfolio, with a $600 million annual property spend

    I guess she'll be looking for a new job.

    • greywarshark 3.1

      I've gone looking into NZ education this morning. I don't think it is giving our young people and therefore our country's citizens the right mix of facts, systems and intelligent human thought training with an ability to communicate, that they need.

      Looking at Rosemary's comment above a notable word in the last linked report is 'business'. Referred to in the first paragraph, the second, and in the third, the value of the 'property portfolio' and the '$600 million annual property spend' are given as hard money facts that impress those who put business interests first.

      Also this woman Kim Shannon – 'As Head of EIS, Kim introduced the first new schools PPP (public-private partnership) in education. ' Which presents government property and services as a business opportunity tapping into government funds and expenditure first and foremost.

      She went to Canterbury University originally. Kim holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Education and English and a Diploma in Secondary Teaching from Canterbury University. Prior to joining the Ministry, Kim worked at the Department of Internal Affairs and the State Services Commission. https://zealand3185.rssing.com/chan-60254421/all_p64.html

      I would think she is in the loop of civil service people that push forward the neolib management approach; all efficiency and smooth operation, and good accounting and tick-boxing and generic – no way would making heartfelt changes with a wide vision of education needs for future citizens fit their well-trained, tidy-desk minds. They are better at buildings and decor than understanding the educational needs of today's young people I think.

      This is a PDF which you might be able to see in full but even in the part I see it shows the direction of property management and accountants and arrangement of chairs and settees for the right modern educational look is a major preoccupation. http://www.nzpf.ac.nz/uploads/7/2/4/6/72461455/southern_regional_sector_forum-may_2014.pdf

      This link below goes to a world link which appears to skite about what NZ is achieving to keep up with world trends. I fear that it is all morale boosting for the NZ chief management; perhaps useful in gaining brownie points for getting paying overseas students. It is hosted as a French site but English translation is available. (There is an English link – too long. ) This is for OCDE – des Politiques Meilleures pour une vie Meilleure. (OECD – Better Policies for Better Lives). – http://www.oecd.org/fr/education/innovation-education/ (France is having Islamic protests resulting in President Macron bringing in stern controls – after the beheading of a teacher who reignited Islamic ire by bringing into the classroom the page which earlier dishonoured the Prophet. It seems that the French need to live up to their fine words about education.)

      This OECD page has little to do with the content and value of NZ education so children can understand and lean to participate as informed people, in what is happening in society. It may be that the MoE has withdrawn into property consumption and acquisition and the local Boards of Trustees are supposed to be directing the education side.

      I don't understand if this is the case as to me, what are their horizons, interests. If business people they might be excellent at management and profitability, but like my dad when he got into local council, he talked about saving money on the library, or shutting it down perhaps. Many men don't read fiction, so have little use or understanding of imagination in their thinking. How can they comprehend what they don't have knowledge of? (The vast areas of thought and history and different perceptions and the knowing what you know, and that is a tiny bit of what you don't know etc.). Of course there is the dominant internet and tech that are such a useful tool, but don't match the human-made book which prompt the reader to wonder what they can do themselves in the world outside tech.

      They need to be aware of where the jobs will be, how they can live their lives under the twin problems of climate change, and the decay of society accompanied by the outrages of manic capitalists. Now education can't be expected to refer outright to such matters, but it can guide youngsters to emotional intelligence and a wide general knowledge and personal skills in the physical world. That will result in a quiet confidence in their ability to assess the practical moves to enable them to make a living, and keep thinking of changes and learnings they must take on for future advantage.

      At the same time they should learn humanities and form their intellectual and imaginative side. You mix with people who have similar interests and they need to form their own spiritual and ethical outlook, and look for people to associate with who enjoy life, have similar values, can be trusted and become part of a network of such people. These are the ones who will emerge from 'the troubles' ahead, unbroken relatively unscathed and able to stand tall.

      Min of Ed. needs to be enculturing this, but apparently their pride and purpose is in handling property and finances with a misty look at their educational offering – of 'safe and inspiring learning environments'! That phrase is all purpose from Early Childhood Education on. What a piece of work is neoliberal man and woman!

  4. Sacha 4

    Simplistic reckon from Andrea Vance: Winston First lost because they did not suck up to the gun lobby enough whereas Act did. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300140171/election-2020-the-strategic-error-that-cost-winston-peters–and-boosted-a-determined-wily-david-seymour

    • Morrissey 4.1

      Andrea Vance's "analysis" is of the same quality as the similarly ridiculous idea that farmers voted Labour to stave off the Green monster.

      • mac1 4.1.1

        I too thought that was a ridiculous idea, especially when I heard Judith Collins in a public meeting 8 days before the election advise her 200 strong audience to two vote blue to stop the Greens getting into power. I remember at the time thinking that the logical thing would have been two votes red.

        Last night my brother told me that his National voting fellow cricket lovers in the pub before the election were considering voting Labour to frustrate the Greens.

        It seems that some did vote tactically like that. The real question is how many actually did.

        • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1

          mac1…if it had been reversed like this…Nat 46 Lab 32 Gr 8 ACT 8 …..would you have voted National to keep ACT out?

          Of course you wouldn't. It's a rubbish theory.

          People voted for Jacinda (and the Greens) because they liked them, their policies, and liked the Covid response.

          • mac1 4.1.1.1.1

            Bearded Git, I would not have voted that way.

            That would have been stupid. But there are stupid people out there; there are alarmists and haters.

            Remember those who believe in conpiracies could easily have been conned in this way.

            I also agree that the 'green monster' theory is propounded by those who cannot admit that the voters spurned a National party for reasons like the rejection of dirty politics; that National is no longer the smart party regarding economic wisdom; that National has lost its way with the selection of dodgy candidates; that it really had the wrong answers to Covid-19; that it was not representative; that bullying, disrespectful, narcissistic leadership is not acceptable……..

            especially when the alternative was a far more representative, caring and compassionate, determined and decisive one.

            • RedLogix 4.1.1.1.1.1

              That would have been stupid.

              Why? Given that the polls made it clear that Labour were going to romp in regardless, voting tactically to get the 'lesser of the two evils' (from a Nat party supporters pov) is entirely rational.

              And given that Ardern's govt is a strongly centre-left govt and has adroitly avoided scaring the right, then I can quite readily see this idea as being part of the mix.

              Besides most people don't vote with just one simplistic idea in their heads.

              Just how large a factor however is something we can only speculate about … and without any polling data to put some bones on it … it's a fairly pointless thing to be discussing.

              • PsyclingLeft.Always

                "it's a fairly pointless thing to be discussing." And yet…here you are.

                Bored?

                [I can’t see the point of your comment other than to have a go at another commenter. There are plenty of politics to have a go at, please do that instead – weka]

              • mac1

                "Pointless"? Maybe at this time for more than a few canny 'reckons' to be indulged.

                However. both sides will be doing two things. Evaluating what happened and why, once the polls are all in, and then devising strategy based on that evaluation.

                For National, it is more important that they are deeply honest, at least to themselves, about the issues for them that I postulate above.

                For Labour and the Greens, knowing why 50% went to Labour for all the various reasons from (for me) being tribal Labour through to stymie the Greens and whatever is in between will be crucial for 2023 and the legislative programme up till then.

                Politics is the art of the possible. First, though, know what is possible.

                I await the good analysis which time will afford us.

            • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.1.2

              mac1….agree with all of that…love your list of National Party failures, when you see it like that it looks pretty horrendous……I'm not sure if the people are stupid, maybe illogical is fairer.

              In fact it is arguable that the half dozen people who voted Labour to keep the Greens out got it right.

          • Gabby 4.1.1.1.2

            Maybe, but some people think they're much more clever than they are. It's just the sort of faux machiavellian idiocy a hooters or a farret would come up with.

            • Anne 4.1.1.1.2.1

              I’m sure some people were conned into the "party vote Labour to keep out the Greens" meme, but it would have been a minority.

              The vast bulk of people voted Labour because of the outstanding success of their Covid strategy. They saw Dr Bloomfield and PM Ardern standing side by side on the 1pm Daily Show and they were impressed with their handling of the crisis.

              This 'keep out the Greens' line is just an attempt to under-value Labour's success by suggesting they didn't really deserve it because it was tactical voting blah, blah, blah.

              Let them delude themselves. It won't do them any good.

              • Agree Anne…that is why the MSM flew with it. But it is disappointing that Tim Watkin bought into it.

                I haven't checked, but my guess is that Bryce Edwards will have bought into the ivotedlabourtokeepthehorriblegreensout theory. His analysis is seldom original.

              • Peter 1

                I have a friend who is a national party voter, he and his wife voted party vote Labour to try to keep out the greens, he is a ex farmer say no more.

                • Peter 1 ….or did they vote for charismatic Jacinda and her Covid response and then when they read the pundits the day after the election become convinced that they had voted Labour to keep the Greens out?

                  There is a lot of self-delusion in voting. People like to be thought as clever/backing the right side. They would need plenty of excuses for having voted Labour when telling their farmer-mates that is what they had done.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Nobody likes to lose. Those farmers won; the party they voted for, became the Government. Basic human nature.

                  • Peter 1

                    No they told me what they were going to do before they voted because they could see the writing on the wall. Also I think they don't like Judith.

    • RedLogix 4.2

      So why do you reckon ACT's vote increased by such an unprecedented margin?

      What was different this election?

      • Ad 4.2.1

        Act's performance needs its own post.

        The Act Party did an outstanding job this election.

        I'll have a go at a few reasons.

        The first is that they worked effectively over the last three years on the euthenasia campaign. They worked effectively not only in Parliament, but also in the media and across the country. They could have lost the debate entirely, but they modified the bill substantially, keeping the profile very strong.

        The second is their careful targeting of the liberal voter (those who have an ethos of liberty and resisting governmental expansion of control) through the weapons buy-back and regulation proposals.

        Those two areas expanded their voter appeal in clever, targeted ways. That was reflected somewhat in their list

        The third is in their leader. He wasn't a showpony or bombastic like Rodney Hide, or an ideologue in the Richard Prebble mold. He had a positive, open demeanor that didn't take himself too seriously and was remarkably telegenic and efficient when given mainstream opportunities to be grabbed.

        The final piece was their secret weapon in Brooke van Velden. This person is pretty experienced in Parliament, but knows how to get the best out of her leader. She was the one-person coordinator that got their energies out of the Epsom seat which was their base, and out into the countryside. The result is some remarkable numbers in rural electorates.

        Now, sure, they get good donations, and they get 'gifted' a seat. But this term they will start with the election referendum results, which will start their term with a real boost. Few can claim that kind of momentum straight from election through to Parliamentary opening.

        They are now definitely as strong as they were in the Hide era – who knows whether they're whippable (that's another story).

        • woodart 4.2.1.1

          brilliant last line ad. that question can be asked in so many ways. history has shown that right wing polies both crave, and hate, the whip.

          • Peter 1 4.2.1.1.1

            ( right wing polies both crave, and hate, the whip.)

            What I do in the privacy of my home is my business. laughlaughlaugh

        • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2

          The Act Party did an outstanding job this election.

          Being the only hard right option with a pulse, and not falling into the trap of empty Covid criticism as badly as the Gnats only makes them a lesser of two evils for those inclined that way. The real test will be whether they can retain or grow their vote by 2026 – by which time the last of the Gnat deadwood should have shambled into the sunset, and the party will have a chance to revive its fortunes.

          If the Gnats rebuild, I'm betting the ACT vote will return to its usual levels.

          • Incognito 4.2.1.2.1

            Being the only hard right option with a pulse, and not falling into the trap of empty Covid criticism as badly as the Gnats only makes them a lesser of two evils for those inclined that way.

            Appearances can be very deceiving. Seymour did test the waters with Plan B but was able to read the room better than his like-minded buddies over at National.

            • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2.1.1

              Yes, that was clever.

              But the strange passions of these suddenly new MPs are mostly untested with NZ voters. Gun nutjobbery or the like may relegate ACT to the margins even as National keeps going down like a broaching livestock carrier – the frenzied mooing and pooing doesn't seem to be helping them.

        • swordfish 4.2.1.3

          .
          Much simpler: Fait Accompli Election: Unpopular, deeply Polarising Opposition Leader of a Party well behind in the Polls & widely perceived to be in disarray … up against a highly regarded Govt (albeit centred largely on the handling of one dominant issue) led by a stratospherically popular PM … inevitably leads – just as it did in 2002 (and to a lesser extent in 2011 & 2014) – to significant fragmentation of the Major Opposition Party's vote. Some purely pragmatic / strategic … some ideological.

          2002 = from NattoNZF, ACT & UF

          2011 / 2014 = from LabtoNZF & Greens

          2020 = from NattoLab & ACT

          No doubt amplified by the Gun Lobby's new high-profile alignment with ACT.

          • Ad 4.2.1.3.1

            Everything's a fait accompli in retrospect, which is where you generally focus.

            Plenty of votes bled elsewhere in 2020, yet still Act performed well.

            Act peaked in late 2020 because they were ready for it.

            • swordfish 4.2.1.3.1.1

              It was obviously a Fait Accompli election from April onwards. That massive realignment in Labour's favour always looked pretty solid & secure from April right through to October.

              When National is consistently so far behind in the polls & falling apart in the most public manner … a significant swing to ACT by a particular segment of its base at the subsequent Election is almost guaranteed. Granted, Seymour's / ACT's strategic game amplified that swing to its maximum extent … they played their cards very well … but I think the bulk of those former Nat voters were always going to be moving in that direction come what may. Already ideologically predisposed.

              Same with former Labour voters in 2011 & 2014 … younger morally-liberal Lab voters didn’t need to be convinced by intricate policy analysis or strategic appeals to swing to the Greens when Labour were deeply unpopular & in disarray … nor did older morally-conservative Lab voters need to be talked into voting NZF.

              • Ad

                The Labour win was assured from April, agree.

                But from April it's pretty easy to run other counterfactuals and get quite different outcomes.

                – If National had chosen Collins after Bridges in March, one could see greater National base solidity, with less bleed to Top, NewConservatives, and AdvanceNZ

                – If National had chosen a farmer-friendly candidate, the rural seats wouldn't have bled to Act

                – If Labour didn't have the second lockdown in Auckland, Greens could have risen to 10%, and we'd have a more interesting government

                – If NZFirst had figured how to attract the nut vote from Advance NZ in May, they could have had a better shot.

                Little of it is predetermined, once you get to the fringes.

        • McFlock 4.2.1.4

          The euthenasia thing made them appear something other than cold-hearted capitalist users. When they figured that out, they softened some of their neoliberal policies to be consistent with that new image. Managing that while simultaneously courting the gun-nut crowd was a competent move.

          But also, where would right-wing nats go when the nats are obviously on a loser?

        • WeTheBleeple 4.2.1.5

          I would add to the 'telegenic' aspect of David Seymour. When you look at ACT's policies they seem like a nasty bunch, but a lot of people rarely dig beneath the surface. On the surface, David is approachable, friendly, and makes you laugh.

          Personality over policy. Cos the hard-right run very shallow.

        • DS 4.2.1.6

          They are a very different party from the ACT party of Hide. That ACT was a creature of Auckland and Wellington elites.

          This time round… ACT did better in Gore than Epsom. It got 10% on the West Coast, 9.7% in Invercargill… and only 11% in Epsom. It did very well in both Coromandel and Waitaki, despite those both being full of old people (why do old people vote for a party that wants to bring in the Coronavirus?).

          ACT is now a rural protest vote, in a way it never was before.

      • logie97 4.2.2

        If, and just saying "if", former National voters put two votes Labour, then they do not understand MMP. They could have kept their beloved sitting MP, and given their party vote to Labour. But if they did know what they were doing and we give them some benefit of doubt, then Smith and Brownlee were considered beyond their use by dates, however not so sure about the Ashburton and Manawatu areas.

  5. JanM 5

    For some reason I've just read the latest comments on Kiwiblog. I've never really done that before. Best laugh I've had in weeks!

  6. Anne 6

    Yes. There's some seriously deluded people who comment on that site.

  7. PsyclingLeft.Always 7

    "A baby attacked by a dog in Hamilton on Sunday night has died in hospital."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429224/baby-in-hospital-after-dog-attack-in-hamilton-dies

    This…like so many other dog attacks on defenceless children, is no "accident". Police need to charge "owner" with some serious offence.!

    • RedLogix 7.1

      Why? All dogs are capable of this unpredictable behaviour, even if the vast majority don't.

      Unless you have some evidence of intentional wrong-doing or gross recklessness on the part of the owner, and presumable parent of this child … then prosecuting them seems nothing more than a vindictive doubling down on the tragedy they're already enduring.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1

        Yea whatever. I'm more interested in the safety of defenceless Children.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.1

          Yes PLA – the stats show that children under 10 are the major victims and that they are usually bitten on their own property. To get good, happy dogs that are safe around children, they need to go to puppy school for quite some time. People living erratic precarious lives and don't have spare money would have trouble finding the time, and doing the travelling to the training site, and there is probably a cost to get good training.

          There needs to be assistance I think from government to enable people to do this training. Some people can't bear being told to restrict their dog, rein themselves in, and get hostile and rude if questioned. Having a pet dog can be a great thing for children, they want to be part of your lives, while cats want you to be a part of their lives – when it suits. But the dogs and owners need training I think.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1.1.1

            Yea, an FYI,I like Dogs…and have owned several. It is surely the OWNER that is the problem in attack cases. And seeing the terrible wounds…(including mental) inflicted on Children and Adults… MUST take care

      • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.2

        Unless you have some evidence of intentional wrong-doing or gross recklessness on the part of the owner, and presumable parent of this child…

        Hmmm…it is an actual 'thing' on interweb based egozones for numpties to film or photograph their new human baby being introduced to their fur baby. Seen in passing, and not an area I tarry in, but it has always struck me as being an inherently dangerous practice.

        Sooner or later…

        • RedLogix 7.1.2.1

          Yes the article I linked to above points out that children under 8yrs should be supervised around family pets, but in reality this must be a counsel of perfection.

      • AB 7.1.3

        "Why? All dogs are capable of this unpredictable behaviour, even if the vast majority don't."

        If all dogs are capable of it – then that should be a factor in deciding whether you have any dogs around very small children. And it's fair to say that not all dogs are equally capable of it, or equal in the degree of damage they can inflict – the type of dog matters. In other words, we are not dealing with something that cannot be mitigated in any way, and is so rare that all we can do is throw up our hands and say "how sad".

        As a broad principle – making owners responsible for what their dogs do, as though they had done it themselves, is a good way of focusing the mind. Though as you say, in some cases it will just add a criminal conviction to the horror and distress.

        • greywarshark 7.1.3.1

          You aren't allowed to just smack your child under our law. If we can be that draconian how come we can't make it a short prison term for allowing a dog at your home so much freedom that it can bite a person. (That would mean keeping control of relatives and friends dogs. If it was illegal you could quote that and not be accused of being a jerk throwing your weight around etc.).

          I have stopped another child from biting mine, and would act vice versa but never needed to. You don't expect it from little children but they are still random and untrained. But a dog is more prone to bite, there is no excuse for it happening to kids, and people will have to be helped, chivvied, threatened into giving a s..t.

          • solkta 7.1.3.1.1

            It is not draconian to give children the same protection under the law as adults and dogs. If your child was biting someone then yes you could use a (light) smack to make them stop.

            • greywarshark 7.1.3.1.1.1

              Is it not draconian not to be able to smack your dog! The idea is that you are trying to train, to get a psychological brain connection in place. With adults, smacking gets weird.

              • solkta

                If your dog is biting you can smack them to stop them, like with children. But using violence for correction is not a sound way to teach dogs, children or adults not to be violent.

          • Phillip ure 7.1.3.1.2

            So not being allowed to hit children is 'draconian'..?…really ..?… My parents did not hit me…and I never physically chastised either of my two (now adult) children..my son and I discussed it recently…how outrageously weird it was…the very idea that I would hit/hurt him..at any time in his life ..and that this could be somehow a way of showing 'love' to your children…I believe we do as we are taught…were you taught that your parents hit you because they 'love' you ..and did you duplicate those actions..?..that could explain your attitude vs. mine…eh..?

            • greywarshark 7.1.3.1.2.1

              I'm sorry to say that my parents didn't always love me and that I didn't always love my children. However I have done everything that I could for them, and shown them with actions as well as hugs that I love them most of the time. It's all a bit OTT about not striking your child at all.

              But coldness of behaviour, little interest and little communication with your child, leaving them to others such as boarding schools to bring up, only liking them when they are winners – children who want to stop playing a sport which they excel in can find that parents withdraw from them, disappointed in not being able to show off their clever child. Then there is being inconstant, all over the child for a while, then becoming distant apparently uncaring; that shakes a child or a teenager very much, then there is the downward critical comparison with a neighbour’s child, a relative’s; ‘Pity you can’t be like …. he or she can do…. makes it look easy. You will have to try harder if you’re going to be half as good.’

              Those are the things that damage a child, not just getting a whack. And they are not illegal.

      • Gabby 7.1.4

        Owning dangerous dog + having small child = gross recklessness.

    • 100% agree Psyc. The owners should be held responsible for the behaviour of their pets. In this case as though they themselves attacked the baby.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.2.1

        Aye. Little kids have absolutely NO defense against attacking dogs. So MANY cases in NZ….and also Adults ripped open…

        Fark the number of times I, out walking/biking with family, and some 4 legged monster (large/small whatever) comes rushing (unleashed) at us. "he wont hurt you" yells numnut owner from a distance…..

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.2.1.1

          "If the dog has caused serious injury to a person or has killed any protected wildlife or injured it so badly its destruction is necessary to prevent further suffering, the dog owner is liable to up to three years imprisonment and a fine up to $20,000.

          The court must also order destruction of the dog, unless there are special circumstances."

          And….

          "If you see a dog attacking a person, you have the right to seize or destroy the dog to stop the attack. You can also seize or destroy a dog if you see it attacking any livestock (sheep, for example) or poultry, or any domestic animal (like a cat or other dog) or any protected wildlife.

          If a dog rushes at, startles or attacks a person, animal or vehicle, causing someone to be endangered, injured or killed, or causing any property to be damaged or endangered, any person can also seize or destroy that dog."

          https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-27-neighbourhood-life/dogs-and-other-animals/dogs-care-and-control-of-your-dog/

          Keep your fkn dogs under control

          • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1

            The dog will almost certainly be put down.

            But unless there are circumstances we don't yet know about, I really cannot see any Court prosecuting the owner on this. Especially if they're the parent as well.

            There would have to be some pattern of recklessness or gross negligence involved. Otherwise it just becomes a vengeance, a doubling down on the grief and loss.

            Which I have to say is an sentiment that has become remarkably popular with parts the left in recent years.

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.2.1.1.1.1

              "Which I have to say is an sentiment that has become remarkably popular with parts the left in recent years."

              I await weka's mod note for you….

              • weka

                My suggestion is you read the Policy. It's pretty obvious I'm already fucked off with having to moderate over stupid shit like this. Please stop trolling/flaming. If you don't understand anything about moderation, you can ask, but without the attitude please.

                • PsyclingLeft.Always

                  Well. Maybe I'm just missing something here. A poster regularly attacks "The Left". ( I could link, but hey). I'm on The Left. I thought this was a Left site. Anyway. I wont respond to aforesaid poster. And would appreciate same….

                  • weka

                    Yes you do appear to be missing something. People are free to attack left wing politics so long as they're not making shit up or making claims of fact for what are essentially opinions.

                    People can also be rude when making comments to an extent so long as they are making a political point. The limit is where it becomes personally abusive and likely to start a flame war.

                    The point of The Standard is to provide posts and a space for robust debate. If someone is making arguments against the left, then others will come along and critique those. That's how it works.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.2.1.1.2

            "A recent study showed that there had been over 99,000 dog bites in New Zealand in the past 10 years"

            And that was up to 2015…

            "Another dog attack on a young child has prompted the New Zealand Association of Plastic Surgeons president Dr Sally Langley to call for tougher dog-control laws"

            https://plasticsurgery.org.nz/patient-information/news-and-issues/dog-bite-injuries-a-serious-problem-in-new-zealand/

        • Treetop 7.2.1.2

          Any dog I do not know well, I do not want it within 2 metres of me. Any dog I know well I always supervise the children in my care.

          A dog is one way to the people on the property and another way to people who enter the property.

          • Phillip ure 7.2.1.2.1

            Or..you can do what I do…I have two re-homed ex pig hunting dogs…big brutes…and both of them as gentle as a kitten..'cos they often have a hell life (locked in cages when not hunting..one of mine had big scabs on each of his hips when he came to me ..this from lying/living on concrete all his life..)…but the wonderful thing about these dogs is that they are trained to hunt wild pigs ..and to be friendly to every other living creature…they even differentiate between domestic and wild pigs ..and studiously ignore the former…and because they have spent so long in a pack they like other dogs ..one of them is 13 yrs old..the other is 18…and I have seen nothing but relentless friendliness from them…so…if you want a gold-plated dog…get herself an ex pig hunting one…much classier than the usual pedigree suspects..plus you will save their lives..as pig hunting dogs are treated like cows ..they have their most productive years..then they usually get a bullet…my two were heading that way when I grabbed them ..and that dog with the big/old scabs on his hips..?..the scabs are nearly gone ..and he/they now sleep on hotel-grade pillows..so ..if you want a dog ( and why wouldn't you..?)..hunt yrslf down one of those mongrels…

            • Treetop 7.2.1.2.1.1

              A close relative of mine did pig hunting for 30 years and had a number of dogs. I know how a pig can attack the dog. His wife always wanted to meet the person when the pig hunting dog got sold.

              I think with me I show fear easily around some breeds and I feel that a dog senses this. I have a friend with an old alsation I have looked after since a pup when they are away. I am fine with the dog on my own.

              A lady down the road with 2 rottwheliers kept offering me to have a cup of tea. I never did go for the cup of tea and I would always glance for where the dogs were behind a filmsy fence.

      • RedLogix 7.2.2

        In this case as though they themselves attacked the baby.

        Accidents do happen and one of the great principles of crimminal law, built up over centuries, is that intent must be one of the factors we take into account.

        This was a great advance on the much more ancient principle of 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' where any accident or misfortune would have to be compensated for with an equivalent act of retribution. In such a world any small oversight or inattention that had unintended consequences (and we all make these all the time), could result in the same or worse consequences being visited on you as well. This had the effect of driving people toward being extremely risk-averse, and is probably part of the evolutionary basis for the conservative instinct.

        It was only when we moved past retribution being the dominant driver of justice, that society as a whole also started to become less risk averse and more innovative.

        • Koff 7.2.2.1

          I write articles for U.S. personal injury lawyers, who are always trying to find ways of encouraging someone who has been injured to sue someone else. Some states have what is called a "one bite law," which means that you can only sue a dog owner if there has been a previous attack by their dog or the dog has been known to have been aggressive. These states tend to be the more conservative states. In other states, like California and New York, the dog owner is automatically liable for any attack by their dog unless the dog has been provoked, even if the attack is a first. Dog owners in these states are expected to keep their dogs under control.

          • RedLogix 7.2.2.1.1

            A interesting perspective Koff. I can understand why the US takes this approach but I'm not a fan.

            It tends to drive excessive risk aversion and builds in huge costs. Its why for instance their medical system is such a large fraction of their GDP yet delivers so poorly for so many locked out from it.

            My preference looks a lot more like our ACC no fault model. Not perfect but a lot more efficient in my view.

        • Treetop 7.2.2.2

          There are far too many preventable accidents.

          When it comes to children their environment needs to be managed according to their age and level of development in order to keep them safe.

          I know I sound harsh. I have looked after children for 45 years and I know how vigilant the adults need to be. Caring for children is hard work.

          There is no greater loss for a parent than the loss of a child.

        • Ad 7.2.2.3

          There are a few more court cases against dog owners being successful here.

          But we should treat both dogs and cats as with guns: risks that destroy our environment and whose total numbers need to be regulated down.

          • Andre 7.2.2.3.1

            You going all Gareth on us?

            I can't recall any publicised instances of kids winding up in hospital, let alone dead, from a cat attack. At worst, a hospital visit might be needed to deal with a subsequent infection from a cat defending itself, very very unlikely to be from an initial unprovoked cat attack.

            While Gareth certainly has somewhat of a point about the effects of cats on wildlife, those in my circles involved in wildlife conservation seem much more concerned about controlling dogs. The effects of cats seem to be just lumped in with rats, stoats, possums etc.

          • Phillip ure 7.2.2.3.2

            Um . ..!…how do dogs 'destroy our environment's..?…cats yes ..but not dogs…

            • Ad 7.2.2.3.2.1

              Dogs wipe out Kiwi. There's practically none now left in the far north – mostly from dogs.

              • Phillip ure

                I would question yr claim that dogs have wiped out kiwi…surely feral cats and rats and stoats/ferrets are the culprits..?

                • joe90

                  While mustelids pose the largest threat to hatchling and juvenile Kiwi, dogs are by far the biggest threat to adult Kiwi.

        • Gabby 7.2.2.4

          A dog attack isn't an 'accident'.

    • tc 7.3

      Interested in the bred of dog and its age once more can be revealed.

      People often don't realise that cute doggie they have isn't until too late.

      • Treetop 7.3.1

        The mother would have been tired.

        What sort of support did she have and how heavy was her workload?

        My heart sunk when I heard the worst happened.

        • Whispering KateWondering if the dog was jealous of the new bub. 7.3.1.1

          Wondered if the dog was jealous of the new bub. Jealously can often be a cause of bad dog behaviour on the introduction of a new human or pet into the household. Terrible tragedy for the family and a poor outcome for the dog. Nothing worse then a poorly trained dog. Dog obedience is a must in a domestic situation.

          • weka 7.3.1.1.1

            please fix username.

          • Treetop 7.3.1.1.2

            I have read that dogs can categorise children as being subservient to the dog. Some sort of ranking system.

            • greywarshark 7.3.1.1.2.1

              If you start a comment and then the first words go missing – look up to the name slot at the top. Suggestion if there – highlight all and Cut and paste down below. Remove your name and put back in Name slot. And keep watch so that you don't do it again or the mod has to FIFY. And that's a waste of time especially on the 3rd time of telling,

              This wasn’t to Treetop, just – To whom it may apply. Possibly me FTTT.

    • joe90 7.4

      The animal, a rottweiler acquired as an adult, was in prey drive.

      The mother had only popped to the toilet when the tragedy unfolded, Karen said. One of the family’s two dogs apparently taking and mauling the newborn boy and attempting to bury him.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/123210180/he-was-just-so-little–witness-tells-of-fatal-dog-attack-on-newborn

      • Gabby 7.4.1

        Rottweilers are just nasty bity penis extensions.

        • solkta 7.4.1.1

          Bullshit. Rotties are no more nasty than any other breed. As with all dogs good socialisation is the key. There are a number of Rottie regulars at the local dog park and they never cause an issue.

          In this case the dog was two years old yet the owner had only recently got it. Any dog needs to be very carefully introduced to a new baby to be sure that they understand, and a dog that you don't even know even more so or maybe never.

          • joe90 7.4.1.1.1

            Food's food, be it thawing roast on the bench or a new born, and it's too much to expect a dog, especially an animal that's likely not bonded with family, to differentiate.

            • solkta 7.4.1.1.1.1

              Some dogs would work it out. I had a German Shepherd who caught a baby mouse. He just wanted to lick its bum and mother it. Had to take the mouse outside myself and put a spade through it. Another time he adopted a kitten.. But yes you can't expect that.

          • RedLogix 7.4.1.1.2

            Rotties are probably the most intelligent of all the breeds, but it comes with a heightened sense of possession and protectiveness toward their owner.

            I’d never call them nasty or aggressive, but a close friend who owned a number of them over the years was always careful to ensure that anyone new in their environment was introduced properly.

            On reading the details this seems just a sad and tragic mistake on the part of a young mother of a day old babe, and not a lot more needs saying.

        • Muttonbird 7.4.1.2

          There's an excellent case for banning dangerous dog breeds. It's like having a loaded gun in your house.

    • McFlock 7.5

      A baby has died in preventable circumstances. Outlines in the media are often incorrect or misleadingly incomplete, so speculation on the specifics is unwise.

      What often happens in these sad situations is that the trial takes place and is quickly resolved (unless there is some fact in dispute), and the judge takes into account the fact that there really is no punishment the state can apply that would come close to the punishment of the remorse of the responsible party.

      Poor little kid, and its family.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.5.1

        Yea…It was a Baby. Eaten by a 4 legged pet monster. That "remorse" wont bring back. As I've said throughout this, Children have no defence …whatsoever, against snarling biting dogs. As I've also linked, there are far too many cases.And I sure do let "owners" know when their mutt is rushing me and mine to "get your fkn dog under control"…

        I also contact Dog Control/Council.

        • McFlock 7.5.1.1

          Look, it's one of many ways small mistakes that most people make at some time turn lethal. Kids playing in driveways, tired parents leaving the kid in an overheated car, not seeing the kid tugging on the kettle cord.

          Even you – being aggressive towards a dog owner can easily put a protective dog into attack mode.

          A case can be made that there is pitiful little competence required to own a dog. Shite dogwalkers who let their dogs approach me piss me off. It's a sign that the dog itself is poorly trained, because the owner is careless. But it's a carelessness that is routine in NZ.

          Throwing the book at someone who has had a momentary lapse that many other people even in the courtroom probably have had is, frankly, a dick move. It requires a social change through education, and maybe regulation, rather than punishing an individual in a manner that is neither appropriate for rehabilitation nor an inkling of what they're already experiencing.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.5.1.1.1

            Look yourself. I've already stated my grounds……absolutely nothing to do with driveways,kettle cords, overheated cars…or whatever else you can slip in. Except uncontrolled dogs. Which in this case killed a Baby. Definitely a form of Child abuse.

            • McFlock 7.5.1.1.1.1

              Nope. Nowhere close. Unless a dog is deliberately set on a child, it's exactly like every other momentary but lethal lapse around a hazard that happens to children, sadly, dozens of times a year in NZ. Be it cars, dogs, waterways, electricity, whatever.

  8. greywarshark 8

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/429227/green-party-should-avoid-cabinet-positions-and-remain-an-independent-critical-voice-former-mp

    Former Green Party MP Keith Locke says his contemporaries should stay out of Cabinet in order to remain critical of Labour while also working constructively with it.

    Words of experience and wisdom.

    • Ad 8.1

      What a retrograde softcock he is.

      Begging to go in to government with all care and no responsibility is just begging to be bullied within government and lose multiple times, and still be the person fronting to media to explain it all.

      Something like the term we've just had.

      • weka 8.1.1

        As opposed to being in Cabinet, not being able to speak out about problems with Labour policy and approach, and still being the person fronting to media to explain it all.

      • Bearded Git 8.1.2

        Shaw should turn down being Climate Change Minister?

        Brilliant. (sarc)

        • weka 8.1.2.1

          or Ad wants the Green ministers in cabinet.

          • Ad 8.1.2.1.1

            There's good reason for Green MPs to be gaining more and higher Ministerial positions than last time. SO I hope they fight for them.

            The $$$$ decisions coming up in 2021 with big Green impact include:

            – Lake Onslow

            – Light Rail

            – Wellington public transport

            – Tiwai+Manapouri+100% Renewable Generation

            – Wilding Pine+Fire risk+Drought+Water Storage

            – Landing the marijuana reforms

            – Waitemata Tunnel crossing

            I can see possibly Health getting split up into Associate Minister portfolios – both for its size and for keeping the Class of 2017 Labour intake happy.

            But for many of the sets of decisions listed above, I don't believe enough Labour MPs have enough ideological clarity or conviction to carry many of them – and the Green MPs absolutely do. We are running a parliament with a worse cult complex than under Key – and with only slightly better policy delivery results. We need Greens who will fight inside Government against the Ardern cult and win.

            • Sacha 8.1.2.1.1.1

              It's Nash and the other righties in Labour who need fighting. They have a strong interest in resisting a Green influence in government accordingly.

              • Ad

                There are far more fault lines than that.

                They will become more apparent as clumping occurs in such a large Labour caucus next year.

            • weka 8.1.2.1.1.2

              this is essentially the argument to vote Green. Unfortunately, it's a bit late now to start running that line. Had the Greens been on 10%, then they would have done exactly what you are talking about and we would have had an awesome L/G govt.

              The situation we're in now is whether the Greens can advance those issues better from in cabinet, outside cabinet, or on the cross benches.

            • Patricia Bremner 8.1.2.1.1.3

              Ad, Jacinda is not a cult. She is nothing like Key. Results will improve without Winston.

        • Ad 8.1.2.2

          Yes. The Commission is set up.

          The real 2021 test for Shaw should be the RMA reforms.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2

      Good analysis – that's my personal preference (as a Green voter), i.e. continuation of previous arrangements wrt confidence and supply plus ministers outside cabinet, which saw an increase in the Green party vote. The Labour and Green parties can continue to work together constructively and with mutual respect – what's not to like?

  9. logie97 9

    QR codes and complacency.

    I am really disappointed with the seeming cavalier attitude of many of my fellow citizens.

    I have observed so many who are just breezing past the codes and going about their busy shopping. I believe there has to be a constant advertising campaign highlighting why it is essential that the scans are used. As far as I can see the current campaign just says "Keep each other safe", but doesn't explain how the tracing works.

    I happened to chattingly ask an elderly customer, at a takeaway coffee outlet in our town, if he knew whether I had the virus or not and whether he was going to use the QR prominently displayed. His response was that he knew where he had visited and wasn't bothered.

    • Whispering Kate 9.1

      I agree with you Logie97. I too see heaps of people walking straight past obviously placed QR posters and registers with pen attached to manually write their name and phone number and they obviously need to see Specsavers. Also well placed hand sanitiser that the retailer kindly leaves out is most of the time hardly touched.

      I don't have an answer for this apathy and it should worry all of us. I realise there are folk with phones which they cannot used for the QR but there is a diary which can be obtained for personal use and they can keep tabs on their whereabouts that way. Retailers sometimes leave a register for people to use as well.

      Mask wearing has not been widely accepted here and although they can be a bit of a nuisance it still beggars belief that, for the sake of their health, they do not use them when out shoppping, on public transport and libraries etc. I am happy to wear a mask every time I go out and register I have visited. I use sanitiser regularly and just wish more did it too.

      Good on you chatting with the elderly customer and it is surprising that being elderly, he/she hadn't attained wisdom through the years to respect their health like we are meant to.smileysmiley

      • Phillip ure 9.1.1

        Pen used by every customer..yeah..that'll help stop any virus transmission…am I the only one who won't touch them..?

    • RedBaronCV 9.2

      Nice bit of elder shaming there. As one of the tech people put it – this app is a rich person's answer. Why not more pressure on for a solution that protects the more vulnerable – who somehow seem to be the ones the disease really hurts.

      BTW the manual diary can only be used if the app is uploaded.If the phone can't upload the app in the first place the diary isn't there. The app when I looked at it also required an email address to register – which is so yesterday – why not just the phone number?

      And finally despite all the bleating about security and privacy- guess what? If you want to take your details off the register you have to justify yourself and get MOH permission- you can't just delete it:

      If for whatever reason you choose to uninstall NZ COVID Tracer, you can request the deletion of any information you provided during the registration process by sending an email to help@covidtracer.min.health.nz. Please include the reason for your request and a contact phone number.

      https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-resources-and-tools/nz-covid-tracer-app/privacy-and-security-nz-covid-tracer

      They also talk about the data on the Amazon servers (Ole Jeff who really doesn't pay much tax anywhere) being encrypted in transmission. Pity it isn't clear if it is just between MOH and Amazon or between the phone and amazon.

  10. greywarshark 10

    Shipping large numbers of animals overseas. It's not good for them, and not good for the country's good standing. It encourages over stocking and we should remember that methane is still a problem for NZ. SAFE wants it stopped, and on sober consideration, I think most would agree. It may be a case that up to a hundred could go and be the basis of a herd bred in the new country, but not a whole huge herd.

    It seems a big earner for NZ, there is a lot of investment in it, and when we stop it, there will have to be a reasonable lead time to drop the number of animals and exit the bulk market in good order. Start now I say. Here is some background for it including a 2019 report of the animals being in poor condition in one country.

    Some links:

    Stuff Sep.20 https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/300107212/a-case-against-exporting-live-animals

    scoop Sep.20 https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2009/S00103/statement-from-progressive-livestock-ltd-in-relation-to-the-live-export-of-cattle-from-new-zealand.htm

    Apr.10/19 https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/nelson-mail/20190410/281857234914864 – Kiwi cattle exported to 'appalling situation'

    Sep.16/20 https://www.newsroom.co.nz/a-case-against-exporting-live-animals

    https://safe.org.nz/our-work/animals-in-need/live-export-trade/

    Sep.12/20 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/exporting/animals/live-animals-including-livestock/requirement-documents-for-exporting-live-animals/animal-welfare-export-certificates/live-sheep-and-cattle-exports/

    Dairy News Sep.20 28,000 cows
    ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/dairy-news/dairy-general-news/live-cattle-exports-in-limbo

    pggwrightson.co.nz/Livestock/Buying-and-Selling/Live-Export
    PGG Wrightson Live Export has been exporting livestock since the mid-1980's and during this time we have exported tens of thousands of animals and have …

    farmersweekly.co.nz/#
    …Across the Tasman the story is similar with up to 150,000 cattle expected to leave NZ and Australia this year, most destined for China.
    Brisbane live exporting company Austrex NZ and Australia breeding stock general manager Tom Slaughter said the live export trade is very much alive and well and a key player in farming business.

    peterwalsh.co.nz/our-company/pw-and-a-live-export/
    Throughout the year, Peter Walsh (PW&A) receive numerous requests from international clients to supply significant numbers for live export. Recently, the market has been for dairy cattle destined for China and sheep destined for mexico.

    pinnacleag.nz/
    PinnacleAg NZ can provide:
    Access to quality cattle and genetics from a disease-free industry.
    PinnacleAg is a 100 per cent New Zealand owned company operating in the grazing and live export business across the North and South Islands, dedicated to delivering quality livestock around the world.

    (This seems like the kiwifruit industry again, exporting what gives our country differentiation in our product and ultimately cutting ourselves out of markets because of the desire for short term gain. Selling the family jewels etc.)

    hedleyjohn.com/
    With the health benefits that goats milk offer, dairy goat farming has become a burgeoning industry. Hedley John is one of the world's largest dairy goat exporters,…

    Exports from NZ of live sheep and goats –
    https://figure.nz/chart/kX4EHvK0MDmkZh4x-OswZ1iBIHPmpCebE

    Vets who have provided services on board ship have spoken out against the trade in live animals. NZ has forbidden shipments, intended for slaughter, since 2003 when 4,000 sheep died in a shipment to Saudi Arabia. In Australia vets have formed VALE – Veterinarians Against Live Export. One vet was allegedly pressured to report 105 mortalities when in fact 2000 sheep had died,.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_export#New_Zealand

    • Ad 10.1

      +100 WTF MPI

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      This seems like the kiwifruit industry again, exporting what gives our country differentiation in our product and ultimately cutting ourselves out of markets because of the desire for short term gain. Selling the family jewels etc.

      It doesn't really matter if we export live cattle or not as far as that goes. Eventually all our export markets for dairy will be producing their own and we won't be exporting to them.

      The real problem is that we don't have any plan to replace dairy or any other primary produce export. We just keep looking to do more farming despite not having the land available to do it.

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        Yes beyond dairy, is there anything but tech services? It occurs to me that when we got someone lively with a sophisticated understanding of world politics and trade beyond the primary in Bill Sutch, the petty government gave him cold and frosty treatment and chased him around the raspberry bush, turning him into a villain for attempting to communicate with a Russian and perhaps give him some written notes about something.

        I've got the book Bill and Shirley on order and will learn more about this mercurial? character.

  11. McFlock 11

    On the random topic of domestic solar, rather than primarily using it for electricity does anyone know of domestic systems to use if for direct water and home heating, i.e. much of domestic power consumption? Particularly something that would work in an Otago winter.

    Purely hypothetical spitballing in my case (unless I win lotto), but I was thinking a rack of solar water heaters and a radiator system throughout the dwelling. Independent of power supply, still gets enough power output on an overcast snowy day to do the bulk of the work (and not freeze and burst) overnight? No grid problems, no battery packs (well, except the water cylinder…).

    sure it wouldn't do aircon cooling just like that, but it's a thought. Maybe in summer could do the reverse, cooling the water (external radiators in the shade, switching between those and the north-facing roof collectors as need be?)

    • weka 11.2

      in the sunnier parts of Otago, yes. Not so sure about Dunedin in winter, but it could certainly be used as a back up system (the power to the hot water tank switches off when water temp reaches a certain number).

      What we should be doing is building integrated systems. In Dunedin that would be passive space heating and hot water, ultra efficient wood burners for space heating, hot water, and cooking, and renewable-powered grid mains. Probably solar panels too (grid tied but I think there is work to do there on not making that so completely dependent on the centralised system because of quakes and storms). There are individual households doing that, but it needs major govt support to get it accessible to most people.

    • ianmac 11.3

      We have 12 panels. I changed the water heating element from 3kw to 2 kw. And put a timer on the water heating so that it heats the water from 10am to 4pm. Thus the solar is mostly heating the water during the sunny part of the day. We never run out of hot water.

    • McFlock 11.4

      Cheers for that, all.

      The house I grew up in was in the "deep south", as they call it, and was rural. I recall we did the full thing – wetback on the fireplace, solar water heating, and of course electric lines connection. Ever since then I've been partial to having at least two different energy types for heating and cooking (or boiling water for a cuppa).

      Electric generation at home is all well and good, but a solar flare or ship's radar could screw with it in the middle of winter – which would suck. So I'm thinking resilience as well as low energy bills.

      • RedBaronCV 11.4.1

        Does anyone know how hot and how much water is needed to run a heating system? Been checking the weather this winter and figured there was only about a week when the weather was too cold to have heated water. It wouldn't hurt the budget to break out the old bar heater once a year.
        Saw someone heating the house with coke cans painted black can the panels be avoided when heating the water.

        • Descendant Of Smith 11.4.1.1

          Battery storage and downloading off the grid at night when rates are cheaper can also be useful and reduces pressure on the grid during the day.

          I have friends who do this in Europe – I'm not sure of the cost effectiveness here – might depend on the day/night price differential.

          • mac1 11.4.1.1.1

            Batteries are expensive but I am reliably informed are to shortly drop in price according to the former CEO of Pulse Energy who spoke about solar farms in NZ to the Grey Power AGM just finished.

          • RedBaronCV 11.4.1.1.2

            I checked this at one point and night rates look to have gone from a number of suppliers. I think some people had set up battery farms downloaded at night and sold back during the day. Don't think the power companies were into it

            • mac1 11.4.1.1.2.1

              Is that a bit like the rorting low life in Golden Bay who used an EV to get free power from the charger generously donated by the local power provider to Takaka township who then drove home and used the car as a battery to provide free power to his house?

              That free facility is now gone.

    • mac1 11.5

      Just had installed a further 8 panels and a diverter which channels solar power in excess to the current current demand of the house to the HW cylinder and after all else to the grid.

      The diverter has four settings- pure solar, pure grid, and two booster settings at 2.5 and 5 hrs per day. The booster settings are 'smart' and react to the speed of heating the cylinder. The solar only option does away with the need for a timer as ianmac writes about at 11.3 below. About $500 for the diverter. The HW cylinder consumes about 2 kw/h per day and thereby the diverter saves up to 50c per day in diverting power which otherwise would have gone to the grid at 7 cents per kw/h and buying it in at 30 cents per kw/h. Money back in less than three years.

      The diverter also is able to detect too low a temperature in the cylinder thus risking Legionnaires Disease and adjust accordingly. I believe.

      https://www.zenenergy.co.nz/solar-diverters-alternative-energy-storage-option-for-your-solar-energy-system/

    • Draco T Bastard 11.6

      Passive Heating:

      By combining good design with effective insulation, you can collect and store the sun's energy to provide your home with warmth day and night, throughout most of the year.

      An interesting point is that if sunlight is striking something then that something will be heated by the sun light. The darker it is the more heat will be absorbed as well as the more square on to the sun it is.

      After that is the question of storing it. Water is actually good for that and it can be pumped where needed either electrically or through convection. That does mean a large water tank and possibly lots of pipes.

      Radiant Heat with Solar Hot Water Evacuated Tube Ground Mount

      • McFlock 11.6.1

        yeah, requiring lots of pipes is the same as the radiator systems found in many older buildings (although most of them would have been coal or gas heating the radiator medium).

        But it allows one to move heat around, or not heat some rooms, like electricity does. And lets one have rooms unencumbered by all that horrible natural light.

  12. RedBaronCV 12

    Be nice if our corporate leaders could count a little better. Making proposals to govt on reducing carbon emissions. For vehicles some of it is good – put in minimum emission standards so we don't have a lot of old inefficient vehicles imported.

    But the main recommendation for private vehicles is remove FBT on corporate fleets.

    Really? – if they could count they would very quickly realise that the reduction in petrol costs would more than pay for any higher price tag. And hybrids for one are now coming in at the lower price ranges. Most pressing need is to enable the under $14k buyer to bridge the gap to a $25k electric. Maybe we should be getting employers with those sorts of premises to seriously look at solar generation and free plug in charging in the employee car park during the day.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123179899/bring-in-road-congestion-charges-says-big-business-to-govt

  13. Andre 13

    "Handmaid" Barrett confirmed to SCOTUS on the same day that court opens the door to stealing the election for Repugs (again).

    The ruling is nominally about whether mailed ballots in Wisconsin received after election day but postmarked before are to be counted, and SCOTUS sez no. But included in the judgement was a side opinion from Kavanaugh suggesting sympathy to the idea that counting of all ballots must be completed by midnight Election Day.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/brett-kavanaugh-trump-2020-election_n_5f977b16c5b6e1e7076381c2

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/supreme-court-wisconsin-absentee-ballots_n_5f975dd8c5b63fd49cef5106

    • Ad 13.1

      I'd look forward to the older Republican votes cast on the day not being counted in time, leaving the Democrat-favouring early votes done and dusted.

      • Andre 13.1.1

        You'd hope so. But apparently the way the counting goes in Pennsylvania is counting the votes on the day comes first, then when the counters are caught up on those, they'll nibble away at the votes that came in before election day until a new bunch of on-the-day votes need to be dealt with. I'm under the impression some other states that don't allow early processing of early votes are the same, which is why Michigan and Wisconsin aren't expected to declare a result election night.

    • RedBaronCV 13.2

      For that they deserve to lose both Texas and Florida especially Texas where according to the media early voting in some of those big counties has now exceeded the whole vote there for 2016. Yee ha go get them repugs cowboy.

  14. joe90 14

    Barking.

    This past weekend, thousands of witches apparently plotted together to cast some kind of “binding” spell on Donald Trump, according to Steve Warren of CBN News.

    Why anyone was worried about this, I don’t know. But this is something that’s been happening for years now with no discernible effect.

    And yet the Christian Broadcasting Network was deeply concerned, treating it as yet another obstacle for Trump to overcome.

    As if battling House Democrats’ impeachment inquiry against him wasn’t enough, President Donald Trump will next have to face a “binding spell” cast by “thousands” of witches late Friday night.

    As Halloween approaches at the end of the month, several media outlets are reporting witches who oppose President Trump are planning to cast a “binding spell” on his administration. Such reports of witchcraft being used against the President are nothing new. Witches have been trying to cast spells against Trump since his inauguration in 2017.

    Scheduled for Oct. 25 at 11:59 pm, these self-proclaimed “witches” are planning to conduct a ritual which is meant to “bind,” but not harm the President unlike a “curse” or a “hex.” These witches believe they are doing something positive for the entire country by not allowing President Trump to cause harm to the US by his actions.

    Well, it didn’t work. He’s still spreading COVID wherever he goes, and that’s not even getting into his policies or the Supreme Court.

    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/10/26/the-christian-broadcasting-network-is-worried-that-witches-cast-a-spell-on-trump/?

  15. Morrissey 15

    Social media’s erasure of Palestinians is a grim warning for our future

    by JONATHAN COOK, Middle East Eye, 26 October 2020

    There is a growing unease that the decisions taken by social media corporations can have a harmful impact on our lives. These platforms, despite enjoying an effective monopoly over the virtual public square, have long avoided serious scrutiny or accountability.

    In a new Netflix documentary, The Social Dilemma, former Silicon Valley executives warn of a dystopian future. Google, Facebook and Twitter have gathered vast quantities of data on us to better predict and manipulate our desires. Their products are gradually rewiring our brains to addict us to our screens and make us more pliable to advertisers. The result, as we are consigned to discrete ideological echo chambers, is ever greater social and political polarisation and turmoil.

    As if to underline the ever-tightening grip these tech corporations exert on our lives, Facebook and Twitter decided this month to openly interfere in the most contentious US presidential election in living memory. Theycensored a story that could harm the electoral prospects of Joe Biden, the Democratic challenger to incumbent President Donald Trump.

    Given that nearly half of Americans receive their news chiefly via Facebook, the ramifications of such a decision on our political life were not hard to interpret. In excising any debate about purported corruption and influence-peddling by Biden’s son, Hunter, carried out in his father’s name, these social media platforms stepped firmly into the role of authoritarian arbiterof what we are allowed to say and know.

    Read more….

    https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2020-10-26/facebook-twitter-google-erasure-warning/

    • Andre 15.1

      It's a truly gobsmacking degree of convergence moonbat fuckwittery that would lead someone to whine about organisations dealing with news choosing to not amplify a completely fabricated smear that's been thoroughly debunked.

      Particularly when a go-to move of said fuckwits is to whine about decades-old previous instances of news media publishing stories with insufficient evidence that have later turned out to be wrong.

      • The Al1en 15.1.1

        Forget the content – It's irrelevant.

        This is not much more than a boundary testing exercise after being told off this morning.

        • Morrissey 15.1.1.1

          ????

          I made it quite clear that it was Jonathan Cook's article, not mine. I wasn't "testing" anything; I don't want to provoke or tease weka or any of the other moderators. I posted a fragment of a typically thoughtful and well written article by one of the outstanding journalists of our time, and I made it clear it was written by him, not by me. Nothing more than that.

        • McFlock 15.1.1.2

          You reckon the lack of any quotation marks or blockquote formatting was intentional? I just figured mossie's brain had deleted its cache with the second tide, like any other moonbat.

          • The Al1en 15.1.1.2.1

            Totally intentional, as was ignoring the other advice given to add more of their own opinion to a piece, so a double whammy f u is my deduction.

          • Morrissey 15.1.1.2.2

            So it's not permissible to post a small section of a larger piece by some writer, without at least some comment by this writer, i.e. moi. Goddit!

            [Dear Mr Breen,

            I regret to have to advise you that you have been banned from this site for two months.

            Yours sincerely,

            Incognito

            PS The reasons for your self-inflicted demise are obvious. However, for the record, I shall spell them out for you:

            1) A Moderator gave you clear instruction here (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-10-2020/#comment-1762468) and instructional examples here (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-10-2020/#comment-1762510) how to copy & paste and format quoted text. You opted to ignore this and repeated the same ‘mistake’ again.

            2) In a dedicated Post today on how this site works and in particular, how Moderation works on this site, the Author-Moderator wrote:

            “Both of the main moderators at the moment are short on patience for spamming the site with long cut and pastes. Use your own words, a short quote and link.” [my italics]

            As a long time regular of this site, you know this. You also know that you and others today were exhausting Moderators’ patience. You opted to ignore this.

            3) In that same dedicated Post it was made clear that wasting Moderator time is not tolerated, especially when Moderators are short on patience, which they are at present. In addition, commenters don’t like having their time wasted either or their browsing polluted by wasteful comments. You know all this. You opted to ignore it.

            4) You have one particularly bad habit, which is “to post [i.e. paste] a small section of a larger piece by some writer, without at least some comment by this writer” [your own words]. This is intellectually dishonest because you don’t own the words. Usually, in your case, it is about who said those words rather than what was said. In any case, you don’t stick your neck out and it is almost always about somebody else’s views and opinion, which you either strongly agree or disagree with, as you so aptly demonstrate with your superlatives. For this reason, responses to your comments tend to go nowhere and robust debate almost never ensues. This is wasting people’s precious time here. You continually opt to ignore this.

            5) Read more…. [in other words, I can’t be bothered giving any more reasons for your short ban]

            The End]

            • McFlock 15.1.1.2.2.1

              Why are you asking me what is "permissible"? I'm not a moderator.

              • Morrissey

                I wasn't asking you anything, I was construing your comments. Did you see a question mark somewhere?

                • McFlock

                  Fair call.

                  Foolish of me to assume that you were seeking confirmation for a theory, rather than basing a random assumption on an irrelevant comment (a comment made by someone who is by no means an authority on the matter that your assumption concerns).

                  • Morrissey

                    I was using you as a prop for my own nefarious ends, my friend. I hope that, in time, you will forgive me for taking such a liberty.

                    • McFlock

                      "nefarious" is not a synonym for "imaginary", which would be more accurate.

                    • Morrissey

                      No, yet again, you are dead wrong. I was not imagining anything; I simply restated a truism, viz., we need to follow a protocol when posting material from other sources.

                      Your dismissive attitude does you no favours, my floundering friend.

            • Incognito 15.1.1.2.2.2

              See my Moderation note @ 7:32 PM.

      • Morrissey 15.1.2

        What are you talking about? It seems that you are, yet again, having a go at Jonathan Cook. He's a "convergence moonbat fuckwit", is he?

        • Andre 15.1.2.1

          Both you and Cook are involved in the idiot whining. Cook for writing it, you for linking and quoting it. And both equally deserve to be considered fuckwits for doing so.

          • Morrissey 15.1.2.1.1

            Cook is "whining"? Could you explain how, exactly?

            By the way, here’s another “convergence moonbat” for your delectation. What she describes—“judgment and scorn” by Clintonistas— is pretty much a summary of your own attitudes and behaviours …

            • Andre 15.1.2.1.1.1

              Cook is whining that Twitter et al are choosing to not amplify the fabricated smear about Hunter Biden. Twitter et al have done this because it has been thoroughly debunked, and shown to be an outright fabrication.

              He is cloaking his whining in the guise of objecting to the idea of suppressing debate. But if the party trying to start a "debate" is simply peddling a lie, it's not debate, it's at best propaganda. Which seems to be something Cook is well practised in foisting on gullible convergence moonbats.

              edit: nice addition to your post after I had started responding and not having the honesty to note that it was an edit. But linking to Krystal Ball merely reinforces my point about your susceptibility to propaganda tailored to convergence moonbats.

              • Morrissey

                It has not been "thoroughly debunked" at all. Maybe you confused it with Mueller's wasted year and a bit.

                By the way, your shouting “moonbat” —tonight you’ve used it in an attempt to ridicule two of the most respected and brightest journalists of the modern age—adds not a whit of credibility to whatever you are trying to say.

                • Andre

                  Excuse me, I said "convergence moonbats". Moonbats are more skeptical and discriminating when it comes to repackaged alt-right propaganda, and tend not to fall for it. Nor do moonbats tend to spread around re-packaged alt-right propaganda in the way convergence moonbats like yourself do.

                  • Morrissey

                    That phrase carried no weight when the drones of the Daily Beast and the New Yorker peddled it. Coming from someone in New Zealand, it's even more ridiculous.

                    The National Party's desperate propaganda about voting Labour to stymie the Greens carries more heft than that circle you've found to illustrate your "theory."

                    Let me state it plainly for you, since you seem not to comprehend: criticizing and/or opposing Biden or Clinton or Obama or Pelosi or Schumer or any of those grotesques who have control of the Democratic Party does not make anyone—not Jill Stein, not Bernie Sanders, not Glenn Greenwald, not Jonathan Cook, not Krystal Ball, not Matt Taibbi, and not this writer, i.e. moi—a “moonbat” or a “convergence moonbat” or a “traitor” or, as your equivalents in Red China would have snarled, an “Imperialist Running Dog.”

                    Capisci?

                    • Andre

                      While I dislike responding to someone that's been banned, because of the inability to reply, your last comment contains misrepresentations that need to be addressed.

                      Asking google for instances of the phrase "convergence moonbats" turns up nothing from Daily Beast or New Yorker. It appears you're just indulging your Drumpfian habit of saying what feels good to you in the moment, without any regard for whether it might be accurate.

                      I have no objection to fact-based criticism of Biden or either Clinton or Pelosi or Schumer or anyone else. My objection is to when the people ignore facts and repeat smears that have been repeatedly debunked, ignore what has been found in non-partisan investigations, or even in some cases, by partisan investigators that have the integrity to publish results against their partisan interests. Such as Mueller, a lifelong Republican appointed by Rosenstein, a lifelong Republican.

                      I also object to when situations are misrepresented by omitting relevant facts, and when misleading emotive language is used about what actually happened. Which I have previously explained about Cook's writing here: https://thestandard.org.nz/assanges-torture-and-the-death-of-journalism/#comment-1748820

                      I also object to propaganda pieces that attempt to set a tone with irrelevancies before getting to their actual topic. Seriously, WTF does Hunter Biden have to do with Palestinians? In contrast, Nepotism Barbie's hubby the Cowardly Scion actually has plenty of involvement in the shit getting done to Palestinians right now, but if Cook saw fit to mention that, I missed it in my brief scan of the piece.

                      I also object to those that take smears generated elsewhere and repackage them for a convergence moonbat audience, without doing fact-checking of their own. Such as Krystal Ball did with Tara Reade.

                      All of the individuals you've approvingly listed above indulge in one or more of those gross propaganda practices. Which is why I view them as propagandists rather than reliable information sources. And why I have contempt for those that uncritically swallow that propaganda and regurgitate it here.

  16. mosa 16

    "

    Food costs in this country are getting out of hand. Even buying locally and in season, it seems the price of tomatoes and bread is forever ridiculous. After living in New Zealand 23 years, I still can’t answer the question: if we produce so much milk, why does it cost so much?

    A $9.5 million house is being built in Christchurch. Shaped like the letter Z, swimming pool and tennis court. When completed, it’s going to be one of the biggest and priciest properties€ in town. The owner? A director at Foodstuffs South Island and owner of Pak 'n Save Wainoni, one of Christchurch’s poorest areas.

    My blood boils when I think of the families who anxiously push half-empty trolleys through that store, selecting items that are a few cents cheaper and a little less nutritious, so they can squeeze more out of their wages to feed their families for another week, while helping to fund that Fendalton swimming pool and import its Italian tiles.

    The duopoly in New Zealand supermarkets must end and the Ardern government can instruct the Commerce Commission to investigate. There should be more competition in this lucrative market, better regulation of prices, and more options for small suppliers to access mainstream markets.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/123193640/govt-needs-to-target-our-soaring-cost-of-living

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