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Open mike 27/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 27th, 2022 - 117 comments
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117 comments on “Open mike 27/10/2022 ”

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  1. Incognito 1
    27 October 2022 at 6:01 am

    [People have become lax with linking. Please include direct links when quoting or making references and follow basic courtesy rules on this site. We will start moderating for this.]

  2. Binders full of Women 2
    27 October 2022 at 6:38 am

    Maybe there is a way out of the Poto Williams & Tamati Kruger ethno-vandalisim. (Stuff article quotes)

    A spokesperson for the group, kaumātua Paki Nikora, said: “We are here because of the desecration of all our huts that have all had a historical connection to Tūhoe, and also all the hunters and trampers that frequented Te Urewera over 50 years plus.

    “You can’t tell me a hut that sheltered our people for that long doesn’t belong to Te Urewera.”

    "He said TUT did not represent all Tūhoe."

    And local actual outdoor working Tuhoe (as opposed to indoor Ngati Taone) highlight one of my key worries–“Are you, minister, prepared to accept all responsibility … when all huts are removed and there's no shelter in the likelihood of emergencies, search and rescue, extreme weather events?”

    And the clincher! “We don’t feel colonised by those huts,” he said. “We’re practical people, we just want the huts to stay in while we go hunting.

    [What Stuff article? Provide direct links to quoted text, thanks – Incognito]

    • joe90 2.1
      27 October 2022 at 7:05 am

      Maybe there is a way out of the Poto Williams & Tamati Kruger ethno-vandalisim.

      By taking sides in a long running inter-tribal squabble?

      https://www.teaomaori.news/tuhoe-marae-remove-support-te-uru-taumatua

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/353946/tuhoe-s-post-treaty-settlement-woes-evident-in-wake-of-festival

    • Sanctuary 2.2
      27 October 2022 at 7:38 am

      TUT and the environmental disaster that is their management of the Ureweras is a classic systemic outcome that inevitably happens when you give people a bunch of money and hand over control of a complex system when those people have no skills, no experience and no desire in managing the asset. Set up to fail, with the best of intentions all round I am sure. Pity about the Kiwi and the Kokako, but you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, eh?

      TUT can do what they like with the Ureweras. I’m not some poor bastard who spent forty years of my life at war with introduced predators and gloried at the re-introduction of the Kokako. TUT clearly want to use the "park" as an asset to maximise the comfort of a subsistance lifestyle. None of this saving native flora and fauna. TUT are keen on a great leap backwards to the purity of the lifestyle of Te Kooti. Paddocks to graze horses and half-wild livestock. Over-run with pigs for an easy food source. Possums for pelts. Quiet valleys empty of nosy parkers like DOC, the police, and fussy Pakeha trampers are ideal for illegal activity to provide a nice stream of cash.

      But like I said, they've got the park now and they can do what they want with it, they can shit in the woods all over the place for all I care. Tuhoe didn't sign the treaty, etc etc.

      However, it's going to become our problem when their communities health crashes and the TB infested fauna, predators and lawlessness starts to bleed out of the borders of the third work ethnostate that is being created.

      What then? One thing for sure – Tuhoe are busily demolishing any support for further co-governance initiatives in the conservation estate basically forever.

      • Shanreagh 2.2.1
        27 October 2022 at 8:17 am

        This is a gross over reaction and classic Maori-blaming but whatever floats your boat.

        • Sanctuary 2.2.1.1
          27 October 2022 at 8:44 am

          It isn't "Maori blaming". It is a simple statement of class based fact. The thing that needs to be honestly discussed here (instead of being a dick and playing the race card) is what TUT actually want. Everyone sits around singing Kumbaya to a deified idea of tribal Maori as the noble savage in tune with his environment. But what if they are just a bunch of dirt poor hillbillies behaving like dirt poor hillbillies everywhere behave?

          If a bunch of middle class New Yorkers spent fifty years in an Appalacian park clearing paths, replanting chestnuts, re-introducing bald eagles and bears and wolves and building and maintaining huts then had to give the park back to a bunch of dumb local hard scrabble hillbillies who don’t like dangerous wild animals and they wrecked the huts and dug up the roads because they just want to be left alone by the federal authorities to moonshine, shoot squirrels and generally live like poor rural people you'd get the same level of dismay, but who is to say they are necessarily wrong? That is how they want to live, leave them alone.

          I think we should cut the Kumbaya bullshit and have a grown up discussion about the purpose of the park is as it pertains to a community in grinding poverty. It is Tuhoe’s asset now, but it still part of New Zealand after all. If we were a bit more honest about procedings then we might come to something a bit more workable than what seems to be happening at the moment, which is a bunch of locals lying through their teeth about their real intentions to guillable Pakeha who desperately want to believe.

          • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1.1
            27 October 2022 at 9:05 am

            What role does anyone outside of the legla owners have over land that does not belong to them. There is legislation that appies to all of us and special legislation covering Te Urewera.

            Why does this Maori owned land get singled out for attention?

            What role will people intent on looking back to what happened when the land was a NP have? Why do they think they have a role? Is there something in our constitutional arrangements that enables beady eyed pakeha to say

            'hey we know what is best'?

            and 'we especially know what is best for Maori.'

            Sounds pretty paternalistic to me.

            Are you on the mailing list for the Iwi?

            https://mailchi.mp/ngaituhoe/te-manu-whititua-issue-n3-1515866?e=f96a1d00b6

            Have you read the aspiration and management plans?

            Most of all I would like you to reflect on why you feel you have a right or that anyone has a right to blow a lot of reactionary hot air about.

            Does it make a difference that Maori here have lived on this land since time immemorial? I think it does.

            Pull your head in about using words like 'subsistence' in a pejorative way Not everyone is aspiring to follow the American Dream or a prosperity church where monetary riches mean everything.

            More than anything 'will the sky fall in' if we let this group get on with their vision for the land?

            No it won't.

            Toi tu te whenua

            The land alone endures.

            • Sanctuary 2.2.1.1.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 9:12 am

              Dude did you read what I wrote, or are you a bot?

              • Shanreagh …
                27 October 2022 at 9:33 am

                I am not a dude and yes I did read it. At first I thought it was supportive of letting Tuhoe do as they want on land that is precious to them. However it was just wrapped up that way with the implied criticism being the stings all the way through like

                subsistence life style

                and this

                However, it's going to become our problem when their communities health crashes and the TB infested fauna, predators and lawlessness starts to bleed out of the borders of the third work ethnostate that is being created.

                What then? One thing for sure – Tuhoe are busily demolishing any support for further co-governance initiatives in the conservation estate basically forever.

                The myth of naughty Tuhoe being responsible for other joint treaty based initiatives possibly failing. Is it co-governance when iwi hold the majority on the Board, when those appointed by the Minister are not DoC reps but people of vast experience in natural land use management etc?

                The myth of this arrangement being co-governance,…it is governance as opposed to co-governance.

                The trigger words such as 'ethno-state'

                Are you saying that just because Tuhoe have got the land back that they are unable to have access to any of the Govt supports that other groups, land owners have. So TB, no access to any funding? so health no access to any funding, so lawlessness no police presence and access?

                • tinderdry6 …
                  27 October 2022 at 2:45 pm

                  "The myth of this arrangement being co-governance,…it is governance as opposed to co-governance."

                  The arrangement is described as co-governance by the Maori Law Review.

                  The Deed of Settlement states "Te Urewera will have its own legislation and exist as a separate legal identity. It will be governed by Tūhoe and Crown nominees to act in the best interests of Te Urewera."

                  This article states "As a contrast to the successful Waikato River Authority, the Te Urewera co-governance agreement provides an indication of flaws the co-governance model can have and how it chafes against the reality that it does fail to give full effect to Treaty principles."

                  Where do you get the idea this is not a co-governance model?

                  • Shanreagh …
                    27 October 2022 at 3:36 pm

                    Because it has a board made up of a majority of Maori and with appointments from Minister of Conservation. Two of these appointment that I know, I think, are not Maori but who knows anyone's whakapapa unless they care to share it. Minister of Conservation is not limited to appointing people from DoC or who are European. They are not there to push an party line or necessarily to espouse DoC's view.

                    Co-governance is being used as a loaded word to bash all hell out of ideas about Three Waters, Auckland Treaty settlement s etc. The concept is to bring about good governance or Mana Motuhake. The use of 'co' is best avoided unless giving a whistle out to nay sayers about Three Waters which you may be doing for all I know. .

                    I note your link to the Maori Law Review……I would make a small wager that if this was being written now as opposed to 2012 they would be unlikely to refer to it as 'co-governance' bearing in mind the rubbish being talked about 3 three waters etc.

                    You make no comment about what the actual paragraph says about Te Urewera and Tuhoe seizing only on references to bash me with your idea of the woes of co-governance.

                    This commentary is significant. In it Tuhoe are being consistent with their view of a step along the way……

                    'The issue with this fractured co-governance arrangement is a difficult one to grapple with when divorced from the historical context of the area. Co-governance of Te Urewera is not understood by Tūhoe as the end goal, but is a stepping stone towards a resumption of authority that Tūhoe never agreed to lose. (my underlining) Kruger commented that “we are committed to washing away dependency on the Crown, and raising maximum autonomy for Tūhoe people".[24] Prioritising the authority of the Crown due to their greater resources undermines the purpose of restoring authority to Tūhoe. In practice, it keeps the land subject to Crown control, and does not practically aid mana whenua in engaging with the land.'

                    What is that is concerning, from my angle it seems you do not wish to allow any group of Maori hold to their own land if it means exercising all the powers that they are entitled to.

                    Are you now going to get very concerned that there is not wholesale access to Ngamatea Station or Mt Linton Station. Both freehold land where the owners actively restrict access. …….I didn't think so……

                    Maori are not restricting access. They have a work programme of removing huts. Please do not conflate access with camping in a hut.

                    • tinderdry6 …
                      27 October 2022 at 5:03 pm

                      "Because it has a board made up of a majority of Maori and with appointments from Minister of Conservation. "

                      That doesn't make it not co-governance.

                      "Co-governance of Te Urewera is not understood by Tūhoe as the end goal, but is a stepping stone towards a resumption of authority that Tūhoe never agreed to lose."

                      So Tuhoe themselves accepted the arrangement was co-governance.

                      "What is that is concerning, from my angle it seems you do not wish to allow any group of Maori hold to their own land if it means exercising all the powers that they are entitled to."

                      Legally it is not their land. This is the point you don't seem to grasp. Te Urewera owns itself. Rightly or wrongly, that is what the treaty settlement determined.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      27 October 2022 at 6:55 pm

                      tinderdry6 @5.03pm

                      You are fixated on co-governance. What is this all about?

                      Could you call it Mana Motuhake as that is what Tuhoe call it. Then we will know you are not using co-governance as some sort dog whistle to nay sayers about the concept. That is my great concern that people are holding up Tuhoe and saying we don't this so therefore as we don't like this we also don't want any other permutation. Which of course is rubbish if you don't understand the background.

                      Te Urewera is a 'The fee simple estate in the establishment land vests in Te Urewera and is held under, and in accordance with, this Act.

                      The management regime is by a board with majority Tuhoe appointments. The remining 3 are appointed by the minister of Conservation and are not DoC people.

                      Sections 3.4, 5 of the Act are important.

                      Te Urewera

                      Tūhoe and the Crown: shared views and intentions

                      (9)

                      Tūhoe and the Crown share the view that Te Urewera should have legal recognition in its own right, with the responsibilities for its care and conservation set out in the law of New Zealand. To this end, Tūhoe and the Crown have together taken a unique approach, as set out in this Act, to protecting Te Urewera in a way that reflects New Zealand’s culture and values.

                      (10)

                      The Crown and Tūhoe intend this Act to contribute to resolving the grief of Tūhoe and to strengthening and maintaining the connection between Tūhoe and Te Urewera.'

                      I think that vesting an entity away from NP, crown land etc and appointing a majority board is very close to saying it is administered/controlled by this board, …..as it should be.

                      The Board must consider and provide appropriately for the relationship of iwi and hapū and their culture and traditions with Te Urewera when making decisions, including—

                      Many areas of Maori owned land/Incorporations have management committees but no-one says that the owners sitting behind those chosen to be on a committee have lost all connection with the land

                      The board has members appointed by the trustees of Tūhoe Te Uru Taumatua

                      'Te Uru Taumatua represents the Tūhoe nation and the lands and wealth held in common for Tūhoe. The purpose of the Governing Board of Te Uru Taumatua is to lead and serve the cultural permanency and prosperity of Tūhoetana by unlocking the unity potential of Mana Motuhake. Advancing Tūhoe social and economic development in a way that is distinctively Tūhoe recognises that we will build the Tūhoe nation with our minds, our hearts and our hands.

                      Your Board is committed to getting the best and right skills, advice and expertise from within Tūhoe and outside. Tūhoe settlement assets and resources must be preserved and grown to support our development now and into the future. Tūhoe culture and heritage pathways must be directed and grown with this development.

                      This Board works for Tūhoe and on behalf of Tūhoe'.

                      https://www.ngaituhoe.iwi.nz/tut

                      You are splitting hairs when you say that the people of Tuhoe have no interest in the land…that they cannot call it 'their' land. Maori hold land interest very differently to the way land is held in the European system, Joint ownership is all, individualism is not.

                      Over the course of this discussion I have linked to the legislation the settlement, the management documents of Tuhoe. You have let all these drift over you preferring 'gotchas' from ignorant MSM or dated commentaries.

                      Why is this?

                      I am coming to the view that your interest is not in acquiring knowledge and therefore learning things about how different people in NZ structure their affairs.

                      It is an exercise in nit picking, splitting hairs, and mainly avoiding a 'fair, large and liberal' look at ways that land can be held and managed. It is also not about expecting the best of people, or of giving people a chance and neither is it respectful of the different ways that people can manage land.

                      It is not benign, it is not genuine.

                      Hopefully that you are not applying this once over lightly approach to the Maunga in Tamaki Makaurau.

            • tinderdry6 2.2.1.1.1.2
              27 October 2022 at 9:30 am

              "What role does anyone outside of the legla owners have over land that does not belong to them. "

              The legal owner of Te Urewera is Te Urewera.

              "Why does this Maori owned land get singled out for attention?"

              This claim that Te Urewera is 'Maori owned land' is a distortion of the treaty settlement. Te Urewera owns itself and is co-governed.

              "On 11 September 2012, Te Kotahi ā Tūhoe, the Ngāi Tūhoe negotiations team, accepted the Crown offer to settle the historical claims of Tūhoe. The Crown offer includes financial, commercial and cultural redress valued at approximately $170 million; an historical account and Crown apology; the co-governance of Te Urewera lands, which will be vested in a new legal identity created by legislation; and mana motuhake in relation to the delivery of government and iwi services to Tūhoe communities." (emphasis mine).

              If co-governance is to deliver on its very real potential, (and it can), there needs to be a recognition that the co-governance entity, and partners, are in place to deliver outcomes that are best for these special environments, and the people of New Zealand who are willing to respect and enjoy them.

          • AB 2.2.1.1.2
            27 October 2022 at 9:53 am

            class-based fact

            I take that as meaning that many of the people who want Te Urewera returned to a more pristine condition, have secure lives and incomes elsewhere. And that this security is necessarily derived from places that are not, and cannot be, pristine.

            So we cannot demand that someone else's land remains in its original condition without ensuring that their economic circumstances don't make it impossible, i.e. humans always and everywhere will do what is expedient to make their lives more comfortable.

            I may have totally misinterpreted your meaning though.

            • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1.2.1
              27 October 2022 at 10:35 am

              I have no problem with your interpretation AB.

              On the wider I think it is cynical though

              • to expect pristine when Te Urewera has always had a Maori presence……they have lived here forever.
              • to expect everything will remain unchanged just because we feel threatened by anything else.
              • not to give people a fair go on their land especially when they are working to maintain to a standard those areas they can in the span of their workcrews (they are not DoC) Why would a competent manager think it was sensible to maintain huts that are past their use by dates, are outside a span of competent land management?
              • not to recognise the aspirations of for Te Urewera involving creating biosphere reserve.

              It was also mine until I read and digested the last paras, and noted the trigger words in the post. Neither were in quotes to signify that this was a view not supported but quoted from somewhere. I think Sanctuary believes that these words apply.

              subsistence

              ethno-state

        • tinderdry6 2.2.1.2
          27 October 2022 at 9:09 am

          Here's the stuff article link.

          TUT is being openly critcised by some Tuhoe Kaumatua. Are they also 'Maori blaming'?

          • Incognito 2.2.1.2.1
            27 October 2022 at 9:20 am

            Why are you asking leading questions? Do you have anything useful to add to this debate?

            • tinderdry6 2.2.1.2.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 9:34 am

              Perhaps you should have waited the 21 minutes between my comments.

              Perhaps you could have acknowledged that I provided the link.

              Perhaps you should have read the comment I was responding to.

              • Incognito …
                27 October 2022 at 11:32 am

                Perhaps you should not ask leading questions in spurious comments.

                Perhaps nobody should have to wait for you here for 21 min, or however long, on the off chance that something more/better might be coming from you.

                Perhaps the link as such was not such a problem but the linking behaviour was.

                Perhaps I do read all comments but your comment was a problem.

                Perhaps you have problems with reading comprehension.

                Perhaps you should pull your head in.

                • Tinderdry6 …
                  27 October 2022 at 1:28 pm

                  If you had read the comment I was responding to, you would have understood.

                  • Incognito …
                    27 October 2022 at 7:21 pm

                    Unsurprisingly, you continue your preference for missing the points and choosing to misunderstand that your comment was the issue that I responded to; it was neither helpful nor constructive. In addition, you didn’t help your case with the inane response @ 2.2.1.2.1.1. I’d told you already that I read all comments but glossing over that is part of your MO here and you’re too fixated on your own navel.

          • Shanreagh 2.2.1.2.2
            27 October 2022 at 9:47 am

            So Tinderdry you know all about the background to this?

            Where have you got your info from to speak on this?

            Do you subscribe to the view that Maori are a homogenous race who all believe the same thing or are they like every other human being who when in a group may have differences of opinion and approach.

            This homogenous group all thinking the same owes much to the concept of the 'noble savage'.

            On every local authority in the land there are groups of councillors who do not think the same as each other or as some of their constituents. In those cases most of us think that having differing ideas is a good thing enabling all issues to come out and be discussed.

            Why does this somehow morph into being a bad thing in Maori controlled organisation? You don't believe that differing viewpoints and discussion is of value to Maori groups or Tuhoe in particular.

            Why is that?

            Could it be because we have been led by the nose by MSM firstly into some false equivalence that 'access equals huts' and that it is newsworthy that a private group has people who disagree with them or as in the update from Tuhoe.

            'Waimana taking misinformed pākeha for a ride on their issues and pākeha taking Waimana for a ride with their anxieties.'

            Says it all really with a bit of humour lacking in MSM

            https://mailchi.mp/ngaituhoe/te-manu-whititua-issue-n3-1515866?e=f96a1d00b6

            • tinderdry6 2.2.1.2.2.1
              27 October 2022 at 2:08 pm

              "Where have you got your info from to speak on this?"

              From, amongst other sources, the links I have provided.

              "Do you subscribe to the view that Maori are a homogenous race who all believe the same thing or are they like every other human being who when in a group may have differences of opinion and approach."

              No, I do not subscribe to the view that ‘all Maori are a homogenous race…’. Tamati Kruger has claimed to speak for all Tuhoe, as in this article, and it is clear that he doesn't.

              "You don't believe that differing viewpoints and discussion is of value to Maori groups or Tuhoe in particular."

              Differing viewpoints is healthy.

              "Could it be because we have been led by the nose by MSM firstly into some false equivalence that 'access equals huts' and that it is newsworthy that a private group has people who disagree with them or as in the update from Tuhoe."

              This 'private group' consists of Tuhoe Kaumatua. It includes 8,000 people who signed a petition to stop the hut removals. That suggests a fairly widespread dissatisfaction with what is happening within the community.

              It is also relevant to consider how TUT got to this place. This article provides some background, including disputes between TUT and DoC over maintenance of the huts and bridges inside the park.

              In the context of your comment about " false equivalence that 'access equals huts' ", of course access doesn’t equal huts, but you might want to reflect on Tamati Kruger's comment that "opening Te Urewera to the public was “way down the list of priorities” for Tūhoe, as it brought no benefit to the iwi."

              • Shanreagh …
                27 October 2022 at 4:05 pm

                ‘Kruger told Stuff in November that the relationship with the Crown post-settlement had failed, and Tūhoe wanted a re-set, dealing directly with Crown-Māori Relations Minister Kelvin Davis instead of DOC.’
                Your quote

                This seems like a good idea. DoC seem to be doing a fair bit of micromanaging.

                In the context of your comment about " false equivalence that 'access equals huts' ", of course access doesn’t equal huts, but you might want to reflect on Tamati Kruger's comment that "opening Te Urewera to the public was “way down the list of priorities” for Tūhoe, as it brought no benefit to the iwi."

                I have no problem with Tamati Kruger's comment. It is the role of the landowner to set priorities. Their priority is not about opening up. Fair enough. Another priority if you look at the work plans is to manage what they can and not to spread themselves too thinly.

                I as a land owner also have my priorities on my land. Public access is also not a priority but I am working with arborists on trees at the front and this will have a benefit for the public as leaves or little branches may be less likely to fall on the pavement or in the stormwater drains.

                I cannot locate it now but in some thing that you have linked to is a criticism that Tuhoe closed access during Covid. Really what silly ideas people have, during Covid we were restricted from travelling, warned about going to places where we might need to be rescued, keep close, don’t mix willy nilly. So Tuhoe follows this and is criticised for it.
                You can see Tuhoe cannot win with statements like this being trotted out as if they were justified.

                • tinderdry6 …
                  27 October 2022 at 5:09 pm

                  "‘Kruger told Stuff in November that the relationship with the Crown post-settlement had failed, and Tūhoe wanted a re-set, dealing directly with Crown-Māori Relations Minister Kelvin Davis instead of DOC.’"

                  "I have no problem with Tamati Kruger's comment. "

                  The problem is that Kruger's comments cut across the treaty settlement. He's trying to renegotiate the settlement by media, and that is precisely what will get people antsy about co-governance.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    27 October 2022 at 7:05 pm

                    That is complete and utter rubbish.

                    Tamati Kruger is trying to explain things in words of one syllable, comic form might have been easier, to people who are desperately trying not to understand.

                    Treaty Settlements are often varied, amended etc. If it was found that the DoC input has not been helpful or Tuhoe focussed then it is the right of the Board to raise legislative amendments. Just because a settlement & legislation has been enacted it does not stop dialogue between Tuhoe and Ministers or other Treaty partners.

                    • tinderdry6 …
                      27 October 2022 at 10:49 pm

                      Kruger is attempting to remove DoC from the conversation, and replace them with the Crown-Māori Relations Minister. It is irrelevant whether you think this is a good idea, it is an attempt to amend the treaty settlement.

                      Kruger states that "opening Te Urewera to the public was “way down the list of priorities” for Tūhoe, as it brought no benefit to the iwi." Again, that is an attempt to change the treaty settlement. Kruger doesn't make that call. Public access is a right enshrined in the settlement. It is not exercised or prioritised at his whim.

                      “Treaty Settlements are often varied, amended etc.”
                      Are they? Can you provide some examples? The ones I’m aware of are financial adjustments that are built into the original arrangements.

                      “If it was found that the DoC input has not been helpful or Tuhoe focussed then it is the right of the Board to raise legislative amendments.”
                      To raise them, yes. Not to unilaterally declare them

                  • Shanreagh …
                    27 October 2022 at 11:50 pm

                    So the hut protestors are not trying to negotiate by media…..only Kruger. That figures. Goose/gander comes to mind.

                    What does this mean?

                    To raise them, yes. Not to unilaterally declare them

                    What is 'unilaterally declare' them? What is the difference between raise them and declaring them? Tuhoe can only raise them, if it wants to raise them strongly is that some sort of a problem?

                    • tinderdry6 …
                      28 October 2022 at 8:59 am

                      "What is 'unilaterally declare' them?"

                      In the declaration that public access is "“way down the list of priorities” for Tūhoe, as it brought no benefit to the iwi."". Kruger has done amazing work for Tuhoe, but it is clear he is out of step with a significant number of his iwi, and it is not his call to place the benefit of the iwi over a key element of the treaty settlement.

                      "What is the difference between raise them and declaring them?"

                      The difference in this context is seen in this article. DoC have been trying to deal with the safety issues in the park for years, but Kruger's comments mirror the resistance of TUT to allow the work to be completed. This is not in the spirit or the letter of the treaty settlement, and seems designed to exclude the public, at least for a time.

        • swordfish 2.2.1.3
          27 October 2022 at 4:32 pm

          .
          Shanreagh

          This is a gross over reaction and classic Maori-blaming but whatever floats your boat.

          Let's hope this comment earns you a tweet from Moana Maniapoto saying "We see you, Shanreagh, and you're very, very special… a great Totara … a Woman of Great Mana … a unique Go-Between uniting the two noble races". And you'll go all giggly, won't you … like a small child who's just met an All Black.

          A great example of an affluent Professional-Managerial Class narcissist – a Luvvie, if you will – paternalistically "protecting" powerful Māori as if they're small children – eternally innocent, eternally virtuous – … no matter the context.

          I have no doubt you'd have automatically defended the slave labour thriving under iwi-owned enterprises within the fishing industry. Ostentatious displays of virtue-signaling for in-group reputational enhancement. The pure narcissism, pure self-indulgence of the bourgeois middle to upper-middle class. Entirely at the expense of the good of the Country.

          #LuxuryBeliefs

          [This is nothing but a personal attack on another commenter. Please cut it out – Incognito]

          • Shanreagh 2.2.1.3.1
            27 October 2022 at 7:15 pm

            What tiresome ad hominem rubbish you speak rather than debating the issues.

            Have you got any views on the concepts I have been raising like Maor world view, beliefs, legislation, treaty settlements or are you happy with your contribution of

            Luvvie?

            narcissist, self indulgence

            luxury beliefs

            What is missing though is your belief that 'I am a pretty little communist' and I really miss that kind of in depth response

            Way out with the All Blacks though. Since 1981 they have left me cold. I have not seen a game on TV or in person since being a bystander at the Molesworth st happening and then being barricaded in my house by a Police presence at the top of my street, so buses full of weeing fans could unload, while defending the mighty boks and All Blacks at Athletic park.

          • Shanreagh 2.2.1.3.2
            27 October 2022 at 10:08 pm

            Why do you think I would protect the items you have quoted in your last para. I have been talking only about Tuhoe not fishing? I really don't see the connection unless you are talking about the bed of the lake which was not part of the settlement and noting that Fish & Game Council still has jurisdiction.

            Your ad hominem and misogynistic comments say more about you than me. That you are afraid to debate the issues so you are only able to take personal pot shots. Most of your suppositions about me are incorrect.

            My simple point is this:

            On a weighing of righting wrongs or keeping tattered, battered, rat ridden huts I automatically choose the righting of wrongs. In fact I would place the righting of wrongs above almost anything especially when it is the righting of wrongs where the state/crown had inflicted the wrong.

            Swordfish presumably your priority is to keep the huts over the bigger picture of righting a wrong. This surprises me.

            I do recall some pretty horrendous stories about your parents that may have knocked your view of people and you have automatically applied what you have endured there on a race based view to situations that are not the same.

            If that is offensive to you then what can I say?

            I'm still laughing at the All Blacks reference…how wrong can you be? I believed then, as I do now, that there is no sporting issue that should guide our diplomatic stance. I can see parallels that those who supported the Springboks could also be the ones to support the huts over the righting of wrongs to Tuhoe.

            I like Moana but my favourite NZ poets would be Hone Tuwhare and Api Taylor. I have never heard the term Luvvie and am not paternalistic…a contradiction in terms for me really

            • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1.3.2.1
              28 October 2022 at 1:42 am

              I like Moana but my favourite NZ poets would be Hone Tuwhare…

              yes No Ordinary Sun – a poem for all times since 1945.

              • Shanreagh …
                28 October 2022 at 8:51 am

                I have lots of favorites of Hone's and love Api's He Rau Aroha: A Hundred Years of Love (Penguin), was a runner-up in the Pegasus Book Awards. This is a collection of short stories.

          • Incognito 2.2.1.3.3
            28 October 2022 at 8:06 am

            Mod note

      • Shanreagh 2.2.2
        27 October 2022 at 8:34 am

        Heavy footed people with no understanding and a swag of entitlement can wreak more damage than a possum.

        There are pest management plans covering possum and other introduced pests if you cared to look on the sites run by Tuhoe.

        As for pelts being taken instead of just left, this is such an old activity that really compounds the anti posters lack of knowledge about what has been going on here.

        An uncle had traplines up here for years prior to and after the area was made into a NP. All legal and above board. there was always a market for good pelts and that was why in the old days when tramping and coming across a trapper hut or bivvy and the inevitable warm welcome you made sure about where you might sleep, that there might be a skin or two stretching out on the wirewove.

        Even as late as the 1980s in hut on the big stations up close to the boundaries there were shepherds huts where the occupants were doing the same thing.

        The skins had a market here in NZ but my Uncle, in an effort to maximise his returns, and because he did this as a living, used to send his pelts to the London fur & skin markets. These old time trappers did this not because they loved possums, far from it but because they loved the land, the bush and the isolation and could get a living from it. They saw themselves as being able to help in a small way with the recovery of the bush.

        • Belladonna 2.2.2.1
          27 October 2022 at 9:01 am

          "Heavy footed people with no understanding and a swag of entitlement can wreak more damage than a possum. "

          Perhaps you could provide a link to support your assertion.

          Because there is lots (and lots) of evidence the other way. Possums are a very significant ecological pest – which are largely uncontrolled by any predator (hence the need for trapping and/or poisoning).

          https://www.pestdetective.org.nz/culprits/possum/

          • Shanreagh 2.2.2.1.1
            27 October 2022 at 9:19 am

            You think I am being literal about lots of trampers causing damage as against the damage caused by a possum? Sad. But if this was what I was talking about I am sure there would be evidence about human overuse/degradation of landscape that then leaves the land prone to further degradation by introduced pests. Eg over use of high country land by stock, degrades tussock cover, rabbits get in etc

            No I am talking about the damage to reputation, to mana, to a correct and preceptive view of history and an openness to facing the future that is caused by closed minds. The 'heavy footed' people are those of us who want to criticise without knowledge, to indulge in criticism of Maori life styles without knowing what and whether they fit in with a Maori world view, as opposed to a Pakeha world view.

            For other 'heavy footedness' just read some of the earlier comments, made over this issue over the weekend.

            For a view that draws on the plans for the future pl read the websites for Tuhoe and this about the issue being discussed.

            https://mailchi.mp/ngaituhoe/te-manu-whititua-issue-n3-1515866?e=f96a1d00b6

            • Belladonna 2.2.2.1.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 10:39 am

              Gosh – I'm glad you're not in charge of conservation….

              Because actual species being wiped out is just a tad more important than theoretical 'reputational damage'

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                27 October 2022 at 2:34 pm

                Gosh – I'm glad you're not in charge of conservation….

                Being put in charge of NZ conservation/environment is a hospital pass.

                Only Parker is still in parliament. Former Minister for the Environment Goff went on to become Mayor of Auckland. Apart from MPs in the 6th Labour Government, no former Minister of Conservation is still in Parliament, although Wollaston and Chadwick went on to do stints are regional city mayors (Nelson and Rotorua, respectively), and that well-know environmentalist Dr Nick Smith is now Mayor of Nelson.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Conservation_(New_Zealand)

                Mike Joy wins battle over ‘dodgy’ water stats
                [updated 5 Jan 2022]
                “Funny how it is always a mistake in one direction that is downplaying the problem, never a mistake where it was claimed to be worse than what it is.” – Mike Joy
                …
                You can almost hear Joy shaking his head over the phone about the state of groundwater in the province: “The whole thing, it’s just a train-wreck – intensive farming in Canterbury is a train wreck.”
                …
                Former Environment Minister Nick Smith had promised in 2011 the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment would undertake five-yearly reporting, something scuppered by his replacement, Cantabrian Amy Adams.

                Govt aims to get 90pct of rivers swimmable by 2040
                [updated 23 Feb 2017]
                Greens co-leader James Shaw told Newshub Nick Smith is "having a laugh" and he is "flabbergasted at the announcement".
                …
                "He must think we're stupid."

              • Shanreagh …
                27 October 2022 at 3:52 pm

                Well if you think that all the misinformation about Tuhoe that has been spouted today and over the weekend is theoretical ……

                8000 people mislead by MSM 'shock horror' have signed some sort of petition in the belief that Tuhoe are doing something or not doing something on their land. So that is 8000 X 9 (the comms calc about complaints and how they spread to others) I would say that is far from theoretical.

                I have not made a false equivalence. One possum destroys, we know that. Tuhoe knows that and has trapping etc programmes.

                Just who will be working to ensure that the damage to the reputation of Tuhoe is mended after this onslaught. Will you be? Or do you still think the crown owned/ns the land, it is like a NP and Tuhoe have only a minor role.

                You have shown that you are not able to understand my point and that is a pity. I agree that species are endangered, I said so in reply. I also feel that reputational damage is hard to overcome even if you are actually in the right, as Tuhoe is.

                • Belladonna …
                  27 October 2022 at 5:19 pm

                  And, equally clearly, you have shown that you are …. unwilling … to consider the points that I and others have raised.

                  8,000 local people protesting – Tuhoe kaumatua among them – but hey, it's all bullshit from MSM (/sarc/). Your blinkers have narrowed your vision to the point that you're unable to see the cliff you're rushing towards.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    27 October 2022 at 10:27 pm

                    Happy to consider them if you can get basic facts correct.

                    Sadly lacking so far and when I tried to broaden the idea that misinformed people can damage reputations you did not get the analogy and we had some fruitless debate. You still don't understand reputational damage do you?

                    You are now saying that 8000 misinformed people are worth more than the reputation of a group doing its best following the settling of a bad Treaty claim.

                    I have linked to this before. The ref to ‘Waimana’ are to those grumpy with the Tuhoe Board.

                    Te Kura Whare received disgruntled individuals and New Zealanders on the outer using a protest as a platform to air personal grievances. Placards displayed reveal the many layers of individual issues, that got 20 minutes of media fame.
                    Mentioned were DOC, Labour, TUT, Huts, even Trump, e ahu pēhea ana koutou? What is your plan?
                    Waimana taking misinformed pākeha for a ride on their issues and pākeha taking Waimana for a ride with their anxieties.
                    Protestors willing to listen, let their guard down saw moments of agreement and understanding. Their anxiety eased, assured of access and Tūhoe structures will go up. A lot of the protesters left a bit embarrassed after Tribals shared wider context. It wasn’t just about huts – as they held firmly to their sign, as the discussions continued, that grip ‘save the huts’ placard loosened considerably.

                    [image resized]

                    • tinderdry6 …
                      27 October 2022 at 11:20 pm

                      You are quoting from what looks like an email from the Tuhoe iwi entity. This entity has been at odds before with its Kaumatua council, and the email you quote from reads more like a propaganda piece.

                      I've already linked to this article that details DoC attempts to progress remediation work on the huts, and Tuhoe leadership being a handbrake on that work.

                      "He (Kruger) also claimed there had been a decade of under-investment by DOC prior to the settlement – “we haven't really inherited assets, we’ve inherited liabilities” – and the $2m DOC provided each year for Te Urewera’s upkeep was “overly miserly”. But the documents show that money was not the impediment to repairing the dilapidated structures – DOC was offering to pay for everything. Rather, the problem was getting Tūhoe to approve a maintenance plan."

                      Also:

                      "In another report, English explained that DOC had provided a maintenance funding agreement to the TUT chief executive (Luke), “with the expectation that she would review it, and we would then proceed to signature. There has been no response. DOC has subsequently sent a reminder about progressing the agreement, but had no response. “Our understanding is that TUB believe that discussion about annual funding is one that should take place with the Minister [of Conservation]. There is no legislative authority for such decision making by [the Minister].”

                      I don’t know who’s calling the shots here, but this entire arrangement seems to be headed off the rails.

    • Incognito 2.3
      27 October 2022 at 7:55 am

      Mod note

    • Shanreagh 2.4
      27 October 2022 at 8:40 am

      Always good to have a link to the real oil. But don't let any source of reality or another point of view put you off your quoting storm from an unknown MSM source.

      https://mailchi.mp/ngaituhoe/te-manu-whititua-issue-n3-1515866?e=f96a1d00b6

      Michievous people have conflated huts with access. Hopefully you were not one of them.

  3. Robert Guyton 3
    27 October 2022 at 8:20 am

    Farmers are revolting!

    "“They can’t prosecute us all.”

    She asked the hundreds of people at the meeting to stand with her in boycotting the consents and almost all did."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/130286957/fed-farmers-call-for-alternative-farming-emissions-proposal

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1
      27 October 2022 at 8:46 am

      Hundreds of tractors were driven into cities across New Zealand. One of those Invercargill protesters, dairy farmer Daryl Swney, said the Government’s new farm emissions' proposal would cost him $150,000 a year. He did not know how farmers would survive the cost, alongside other regulations.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/130286957/fed-farmers-call-for-alternative-farming-emissions-proposal

      So he a $150,000 Emitter ! He must be one of the high falutin', pollutin', AND revoltin'

      Urrgh

      • Shanreagh 3.1.1
        27 October 2022 at 10:14 am

        So he a $150,000 Emitter ! He must be one of the high falutin', pollutin', AND revoltin'

        Urrgh

        Or as Stuart Gray said a member of the pollutocrat tribe of the Nats.

    • AB 3.2
      27 October 2022 at 10:03 am

      These same farmers will be asking for taxpayer assistance if flooding that is amplified by climate change devastates their properties. The obvious problem is that reducing emissions won't reduce the effects of climate change in the short-medium term, because so much change is already baked in by past emissions.

      And that is essentially a fiscal problem: farmers will be paying to reduce emissions (or passing those costs to the public), while simultaneously taxpayers will be paying to mitigate or repair the effects of climate change. The ledger does not balance out here – there is only cost. Public finances will be overwhelmed and living standards will fall at the same time. Hard to avoid the conclusion that we are now on the leading edge of utter chaos.

    • tc 4.1
      27 October 2022 at 9:35 am

      Not going to happen from a party that couldn't produce them whilst in power. It's now a vehicle for dissent, negativity, dirty politics and privilege.

      All feed and watered by our owned media with these faux culture wars.

  5. Mike the Lefty 5
    27 October 2022 at 8:30 am

    An article on Stuff this morning listing 11 things that National will repeal/reverse/scrap if they win the election next year. But naturally nothing about what they will do instead to fix the institutional problems of our country.

    But we can guess. It will probably start with tax cuts for the rich, new multi-billion roads and fly-overs for Ford Ranger owning rural townies, building new prisons and cuts to public services.

    The difference between National and Labour is that Labour valiantly keeps trying to make a rotten system better, but can't do it because it is too far gone, our public service is too small and too protective of its own privilege to do it anyway, and Labour lacks the balls, the money and the people to clean it out completely and start again from scratch. On the other hand National just gives up trying straight away and tries to fool us into thinking that doing nothing is actually doing something.

    [What Stuff article? Provide direct links to quoted text, thanks – Incognito]

    • Incognito 5.1
      27 October 2022 at 8:43 am

      Mod note

    • Tony Veitch 5.2
      27 October 2022 at 8:53 am

      Absolutely right, Mike.

      Over the life of this country (at least since 1840), all the positive legislation that makes life better for ordinary kiwis has come from the left of the political spectrum.

      Natz have largely just maintained the status quo.

      But that approach will simply not work in the face of the existential crisis of climate change. Frankly, the market has no f*cking idea how to get us out of the environmental mess they have created.

      We need interventionist governments prepared to do things: like three waters, fair pay agreements, rebuilding the health system, housing etc.

      The rich don't use public hospitals or state school; all they need is roads to get to airports for their overseas holidays. Hence the Natz focus on roads.

      This country can't afford another Natz/Act government.

    • Mike the Lefty 5.3
      27 October 2022 at 7:20 pm

      Sorry I can't seem to post links. I will try to find out how.

      • Incognito 5.3.1
        27 October 2022 at 7:23 pm

        Noted and let us know if you need help with that.

        • Mike the Lefty 5.3.1.1
          29 October 2022 at 9:35 am

          Everytime I try to post a link I get a message saying it isn't supported. It is an IMAC and contrary to Apple's claims they don't make things easier.

          • Incognito 5.3.1.1.1
            29 October 2022 at 10:04 am

            Thanks. I’ve left a note in the back-end and hopefully someone will be able to help you with this.

          • weka 5.3.1.1.2
            29 October 2022 at 5:14 pm

            Mike, what operating system are you using? What browser? Are they both up to date? Can you please post the exact text of the message, and if it’s from the browser or the os?

  6. Reality 6
    27 October 2022 at 9:43 am

    Any legislation to make day to day life a bit better for the "average" person does not and will not come from a National government. Paid parental leave they voted against and Labour has since its introduction steadily increased the payments. Sick leave, annual leave, KiwiSaver …… As long as the better off get a generous tax cut is first and foremost on their policy wish list.

  7. Anne 7
    27 October 2022 at 9:52 am

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pms-office-attack-staff-evacuated-after-sword-used-to-damage-jacinda-arderns-auckland-office/ZUJBADSS3Y7IQ4DLA5DCM552IE/

    Just in.

    My first reaction:
    Blame the Hoskings and HdPAs.
    Blame the tabloid media in general.
    Blame the Nats and their constant barrage of false and misinformation.
    Blame ACT and their constant barrage of false and misinformation.

    Could be coincidental but did the culprit wait until Ardern was in Antarctica?

    Edit: the article has now been edited. The original reported a man was seen approaching the office… he smashed a window and threw something inside. Fire trucks arrived to put out a fire. There was no staff there at the time.

    • Visubversa 7.1
      27 October 2022 at 10:06 am

      The last "domestic terrorist" that smashed in the frontage of the Prime Minister's office in Mt Albert electorate did not do it when the PM was there either Helen Clark's office in Sandringham Rd had an axe put through the window one morning. It was very upsetting for the staff – I was upstairs doing some Labour Party work that morning so all we heard was the crash, but the office was closed for the day while the Police did the forensic stuff.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/man-admits-to-putting-axe-through-prime-ministers-window/27HOEJFHOWJYNMQH6IEOKKVBJY/

    • Anne 7.2
      27 October 2022 at 10:11 am

      An up to date version from Stuff:

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300721972/samurai-sword-at-scene-of-prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-smashed-auckland-electoral-office

      Yes, Visubversa, no coincidence they were women Prime Ministers representing the Labour held seat of Mt. Albert.

      Victims of the venomous Right. There have been quite a few of us over the years who were thus targeted. I was a nobody when it happened to me 30 years ago, so the police weren’t interested.

      • Belladonna 7.2.1
        27 October 2022 at 2:24 pm

        Oh, come on, Anne!

        It certainly hasn't only happened to Labour PMs or to women PMs

        John Key's electorate office was firebombed

        https://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/key-has-no-idea-why-office-was-attacked

        Was he a victim of the venomous Left?

        • Anne 7.2.1.1
          27 October 2022 at 3:16 pm

          You know I did not say they only happen to Labour MP's and women PMs.

          You know I was replying in the context of visibversa's comment @ 7.1

          So why try to start a flame war?

          I was similarly targeted by a woman who was planted in the Mt.Albert Labour Party 35 plus years ago. I know who put her there and why… but am not revealing the context or the identities here so don't bother to ask.

          • Belladonna 7.2.1.1.1
            27 October 2022 at 5:27 pm

            You said: "no coincidence they were women Prime Ministers representing the Labour held seat of Mt. Albert."

            When, actually, yes it is a coincidence.

            I've provided one example of an attack on the office of a male PM – there are plenty of others.
            Attacks on the electorate offices (and even MPs themselves – cf James Shaw) – are an occupational hazard in NZ (and in other countries as well).

            I don't support it – or minimize it – but I acknowledge that it happens to many – right or left. Perhaps you could do the same.

            Calling you on misinformation is not starting a flame war.

            • Anne 7.2.1.1.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 7:04 pm

              Oh yes it is starting a flame war when you know I was referring to a specific situation as was indeed Visubversa before me. Maybe I didn't choose my words ponderously enough for Madam but most people here don't mess around with silly semantics just to prove to the world they are always right and the target of the hour is wrong.

              And to suggest I'm spouting misinformation on the subject only serves to further the suspicion by quite a few on this site that you are a person who thinks she has to be top dog in all things. 🙄

              • Belladonna …
                27 October 2022 at 7:56 pm

                I'm not suggesting. You were spouting misinformation – as you have done in the past – and no doubt will do in the future.

                Have you acknowledged, yet – I don't seem to see it in the responses – that actually attacks on electorate offices and individual politicans happen to members of all political parties – and males are affected as well as females.

                • Anne …
                  28 October 2022 at 10:53 am

                  Misinformation is not my game and never has been. You do yourself a disservice with your silly 'misinterpretations'.

                  I find your understanding on some technical matters pertaining to topics discussed here both useful and interesting. Then you go and spoil it.

                  "I've yet to acknowledge that attacks on electorate offices happen to all political parties?" (paraphrase)

                  We were talking about one specific office that was attacked yesterday. To suggest that I or anyone else is denying they happen to other political parties because we didn't mention them in dispatches is bordering on the idiotic.

                  I've been around the political traps on and off for 50 years and believe me I know a thing or two – as do others on this site. You might do well to ponder the fact our experiences are worthy of respect… even if you do imagine you know better.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.2
          27 October 2022 at 3:21 pm

          Can you detect the strong whiff of misogyny in the venom directed against our PM? If not then please see your GP.

          Here be trolls: New Zealand’s female politicians battle rising tide of misogyny

          Mr Key said he was not aware of any threats having been made against him and there were no indications it was politically motivated.

          Haven't 'times' changed – 'funny' that.

          Death threats 'a sad fact of life' as Prime Minister – Jacinda Ardern
          [30 Nov 2019]
          Jacinda Ardern says she's been getting death threats since the day she became Prime Minister.

          'This is a death threat' post about PM lands Rotorua man 300 hours' community work [20 Oct 2022]
          “What bs we gonna put Jacinda in the ground, that’s right this is a death threat kill Jacinda.”

          Conviction overturned for man who sent death threats to Jacinda Ardern [19 Oct 2022]
          Michael Cruickshank argued he was so drunk he could not remember sending the threats to New Zealand’s prime minister

          PM death threat: Richard Sivell evading arrest six months after being charged with threatening to kill Jacinda Ardern [29 Sept 2022]

          Threat against Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern delivered to Kerikeri homes [12 Jan 2022]
          A letter has been delivered in letterboxes around Kerikeri threatening to "eradicate" Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.

          Some people eh? Wonder what might still be going through their 'minds'.

          Jacinda Ardern laughs off 'pretty communist' protest sign
          [18 Sept 2017]

          • Belladonna 7.2.1.2.1
            27 October 2022 at 5:34 pm

            Meanwhile, the MP who has actually been personally physically attacked – is James Shaw. A bloke.

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/03/james-shaw-attacked.html

            I can't think of another MP who has physically attacked – rather than jostled in a crowd, etc. Although there have been some things thrown at right-wing pollies – which is pretty borderline, in my estimation.

            [Edit – I’ve just found this link to a series of physical attacks on politicians over the years – all were blokes – (in my defence, many are from well before I had any active interest in politics)]
            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/beaten-bloodied-and-bruised-the-mps-attacked-over-the-years/5KA355JWECKJZJRI7UDYD66I5Y/

            If you want to argue that MPs are increasingly at risk from both physical and virtual attacks, I'll certainly agree with you. And there is research to back it up.

            https://www.otago.ac.nz/news/news/otago104620.pdf

            But to claim that only women are affected is simply not true.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.2.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 6:49 pm

              But to claim that only women are affected is simply not true.

              Another extraordinary claim – tell me who made it and I will ‘have words’.

              Meanwhile, the MP who has actually been personally physically attacked…

              Oh, come on, Belladonna!

              You’ve offered no good reason for me to revise my reply to your comment @7.2.1, simply because you've subsequently introduced physical assaults into the mix. If for some reason you bring yourself to acknowledge the objective truth of the misogynistic component in the venom directed at our PM then that’s disappointing, but tbh I’m not surprised.

              • Belladonna …
                27 October 2022 at 8:19 pm

                Try reading Anne's initial comment

                "no coincidence they were women Prime Ministers representing the Labour held seat of Mt. Albert."

                Yes, it is a coincidence. There are plenty of other instances of non-Labour and non-female (if one is still allowed to use that divisive term) pollies offices being attacked (including PMs)

                To claim this is "no coincidence" is to state (with no evidence) that this level of violence is only directed at Labour women PMs. Which is a lie.

                Jacinda has a level of vitriol addressed to and about her. As did Key.
                Popular politicians also have the converse of that popularity – it's only the mediocre ones who seem to attract little hatred (people go 'meh' rather than froth at the mouth.)

                If it is misogynistic in relation to Ardern is is equally misandric (if that is the word) in relation to Key?

                I will absolutely agree that online abuse of female politicians outweighs that directed at their male counterparts.

                I don't see any evidence, however that physical assaults (on person or property) are greater for women than for men. In fact, the evidence I've linked to seems to show the reverse.

                If you have evidence to show that I'm wrong, then I'm certainly open to changing my opinion.

                And the initial comment was about the attack on Ardern's electorate office (not about any threats made to her). You are the one who initially widened the scope of the thread.

                • Muttonbird …
                  27 October 2022 at 8:28 pm

                  It's kind of frightening you have so far failed to condemn the samurai sword attack on the PM's electorate office.

                  Apologies if you have, but I don't want to wade through all your comments today. Far too draining and depressing.

                  You (and others from the right) seem to me to be spending a lot of time minimising this incident…

                  • Belladonna …
                    27 October 2022 at 8:45 pm

                    Quote from up the thread

                    "Attacks on the electorate offices (and even MPs themselves – cf James Shaw) – are an occupational hazard in NZ (and in other countries as well).

                    I don't support it – or minimize it – but I acknowledge that it happens to many."

                    If that's not sufficient for you, then I unreservedly condemn the attack on the PM's electorate office. While acknowledging that it will almost certainly have been carried out by someone mentally unbalanced.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  28 October 2022 at 1:19 am

                  Try reading Anne's initial comment

                  I read Anne's initial comments @7 and @7.2 about the recent attack on the PM's office, and the earlier attack on PM Clark's office that Visubversa wrote about @7.1.

                  In your first 'contribution', your reply (to Anne) @7.2.1, you wrote:

                  It certainly hasn't only happened to Labour PMs or to women PMs

                  Which is an indisputable statement, but also a tad odd – given that no one had suggested otherwise. Anne (@7.2.1.1) made this crystal clear for you:

                  You know I did not say they only happen to Labour MP's and women PMs.

                  You then had the gall (@7.2.1.1.1 and @7:56 pm) to write that you were "calling" Anne "on [spouting] misinformation", when it was you, and only you, who had deliberately misrepresented what Anne had written. That's self-serving bad faith behaviour – plain as day.

                  You bad faith commenting continued when you offered this:

                  But to claim that only women are affected is simply not true.
                  – Belladonna @7.2.1.2.1

                  Once again, you, and only you, had made such a claim in this thread – it would be absurd to suggest otherwise. Readers can make up their own minds about why you would write such an absurdity – I know I have.

                  I stand by my reply to your comment @7.2.1 – that you subsequently introduced the spurious matter of the physical assault on Shaw into the mix is further evidence that you are not commenting in good faith – rather you are minimising and diverting.

                  Why escalating misogynistic abuse of Jacinda Ardern is a national security issue [9 April 2022]

                  It is open misogyny, visible on every platform and supported and promoted by upvotes on Reddit, laughing emojis on Facebook, comments about “that woman” on LinkedIn, and someone who looks like your Aunty referring to the PM as “Cindy” and calling her a “c…”.

                  It is targeted and increasingly violent misogynistic abuse and threats – illustrated by but not limited to the escalation in gendered hatred directed towards Ardern – being directed at public-facing women from central and local body politicians to journalists, public servants, academics and chief executives.

                  Imho our PM has shown considerable fortitude in the face of a veritable torrent of abuse and threats, including death threats – it can't be easy.
                  To our PM – hang in there – Kia kaha, and be kind yes

                  • Anne …
                    28 October 2022 at 11:22 am

                    Thanks Drowsy M Kram.

                    Belledonna's presence on this site appears – in part – to try and undermine this government. Its an age old trick to do it by way of attempting to score points off and ridiculing individuals who stand behind or support them.

                    It is the same ploy used by the right-wing dirty political brigade when they attempted to destroy Clarke Gayford's reputation by way of spreading false stories about him. Take for example the "nanny": meme. It's Jacinda Ardern they are aiming to hurt by despoiling the reputations of those around her. They did the same to Helen Clark.

                    Helen rose above them and so will Jacinda.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.2.1.2
              27 October 2022 at 7:01 pm

              Sorry, that should read:

              If for some reason you can't bring yourself to acknowledge the objective truth of the misogynistic component in the venom directed at our PM…

            • Anne 7.2.1.2.1.3
              27 October 2022 at 7:13 pm

              "But to claim that only women are affected is simply not true."

              Bullshit. No-one is claiming only women parliamentarians get attacked.

              You are the one indulging in cute misinformation.

              • Belladonna …
                27 October 2022 at 8:22 pm

                Sigh. Try reading your own comment:

                "no coincidence they were women Prime Ministers representing the Labour held seat of Mt. Albert."

                Yes, it is a coincidence. Or, alternatively, your framing. There are plenty of other instances of non-Labour and non-female (if one is still allowed to use that divisive term) pollies offices being attacked (including PMs)

                To claim this is "no coincidence" is to state (with no evidence) that this level of violence is only directed at Labour women PMs. Which is a lie.

    • Jimmy 7.3
      27 October 2022 at 10:24 am

      "Staff evacuated after sword attack" in the headline and yet when you read the article "No injuries have been reported and the building was unoccupied at the time," police said.

      So how do you evacuate an empty building.

      Not good but the standard of reporting is terrible..

      • observer 7.3.1
        27 October 2022 at 10:34 am

        From the Stuff report at 7.2 above:

        Deb Fong, who owns a yoga studio next-door to the electoral office, said she could smell smoke in her studio.

        An office is not the same as a building.

        The report quotes the police statement.

      • Anne 7.3.2
        27 October 2022 at 10:46 am

        I think you will finds the police told them they couldn't occupy the office until they had finished their forensic examination. That could take several hours.

        At the time the article was put together, the reporter wouldn't know the exact turn of events so just labelled it an evacuation.

        Whatever, the psychological effect on the staff will be enormous because of a large sword left behind on the ground. I'm picking that was a deliberate act to threaten the staff and the PM.'

        In the Helen Clark case it was an axe.

    • alwyn 7.4
      27 October 2022 at 2:51 pm

      " The original reported a man was seen approaching the office… he smashed a window and threw something inside". Why do we men always get the blame for this sort of madness?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300721972/woman-arrested-after-prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-auckland-electoral-office-damaged

      • observer 7.4.1
        27 October 2022 at 3:51 pm

        "We" don't.

        The reports said it was a man, including eye-witness comments. Later the reports changed.

  8. Jimmy 8
    27 October 2022 at 10:04 am

    Good to see that 2.75m given to the mob being put to good use by the Mongrel Mob. Did anyone actually believe the PR lady that they were no longer in to drugs? (she is awfully quiet now).

    But at least all the gang members now vote Labour.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130267411/antidrug-mongrel-mobs-man-was-meth-kingpin

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/446739/ardern-backs-2-point-75m-support-for-mongrel-mob-meth-addiction-programme

    • joe90 8.1
      27 October 2022 at 10:20 am

      The recipients were a group called Hard2Reach, fronted by Harry Tam and anthropologist and public health researcher Angie Wilkinson.

      Do you have evidence that either is involved in the drug trade?

      • Jimmy 8.1.1
        27 October 2022 at 11:33 am

        No I obviously don't personally have any evidence, but the police do as Mark Griffiths will be off to jail now. Actually if he gets the good judge probably home D.

        • joe90 8.1.1.1
          27 October 2022 at 11:55 am

          So why the inference that Harry Tam and anthropologist and public health researcher Angie Wilkinson are connected to Griffiths' offending?

    • Nic the NZer 8.2
      27 October 2022 at 10:48 am

      /equally bad take

      I'm told the drugs were imported via printer cartridges. Well be needing to implement sanctions against the US administration and their cartel of printer suppliers now.

      /equally bad take finished

  9. Reality 9
    27 October 2022 at 10:39 am

    New Zealand's male violence towards women is further demonstrated by the deranged, cowardly attack on the PM's electorate office. There are too many men who cannot seem to accept and adapt to women's involvement in politics, government, local government, business, senior roles in any field. As soon as they rise to the top these pathetic men want to drag them down in one way or another. Anger, jealousy, "pretty communist" "Cindy", "girl in a skirt" that sort of nonsense never gets hurled at Chris Luxon. Time some people grew up.

    • Poission 9.1
      27 October 2022 at 12:13 pm

      New Zealand's male violence towards women is further demonstrated by the deranged, cowardly attack on the PM's electorate office.

      police have arrested a 57 year old Woman .

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300721972/woman-arrested-after-prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-auckland-electoral-office-damaged

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        27 October 2022 at 12:50 pm

        Define woman. So unless there is a picture or a comment to precise that it was an adult human female – who may or may not identify as a 'woman' you actually have no idea who really committed the crime, i mean anyone who feels like a women can self identify as a woman, one can even change daily their gender expression and no alterations to bodies or faces need to be made in order to self identify as a woman. And i would like to point out that the person was not described as a 'cis' woman either. So really might just not 'sex' the criminal until more information is available.

        In saying that, knife attacks, attacks on people with screwdrivers, ramraids, bashings etc is all up and i would assume this is do to mental health issues in many cases. And sometimes these mental health issues need more then just access to a 0800 number.

        So give the criminal a few month of Home D, say 9 month? That seems to be a good punishment for crimes against 'human females" of all ages and their offices.

        • Molly 9.1.1.1
          28 October 2022 at 8:04 am

          The change in sex reported is noted.

          It'll be worth seeing why that happened.

          • weka 9.1.1.1.1
            28 October 2022 at 9:36 am

            coincidentally Fond of Beetles has this thread up this morning.

      • observer 9.1.2
        27 October 2022 at 1:46 pm

        Correct, a woman has been arrested.

        However, it was widely reported to be a man immediately after the attack.

        Most of those reports have since been updated and corrected, and unfortunately most NZ media do not bother to follow best practice overseas of notifying readers of corrections. The requirement for links on The Standard is entirely reasonable, but the linked content often changes, and only screenshots (or our own memories) can confirm original reporting.

    • Jimmy 9.2
      27 October 2022 at 4:44 pm

      "New Zealand's male violence towards women is further demonstrated by the deranged, cowardly attack on the PM's electorate office"

      What made you jump to the conclusion that it would be a man attacking the PM's office?

      They have arrested a woman. When Jacinda was abused up north a while ago that was a woman too.

      • observer 9.2.1
        27 October 2022 at 5:28 pm

        For the 3rd time – it was reported in the media as being a man. The story at 10 am was not the story at 1l am or 1 pm.

        Perhaps you could read the comments before "jumping to a conclusion".

    • Mike the Lefty 9.3
      29 October 2022 at 9:44 am

      Derangement is not peculiar to men.

      There were plenty of women involved in despoiling the centre of Wellington in February.

      The difference is that deranged men have an additional bone of contention – Jacinda being a woman means that she is "not one of us" and thus more contemptible.

  10. adam 10
    27 October 2022 at 10:57 am

    More war crimes. So the question that has to be asked, is our government not acting because they are not white?

    • joe90 10.1
      27 October 2022 at 11:11 am

      is our government not acting

      What would you like our government to do?

      • adam 10.1.1
        27 October 2022 at 3:48 pm

        Rescind the free trade agreement for starters.

        Provide humanitarian aid to the civilians families being killed.

        Cut off the military from arms and weapons – with us pulling out of all free trade agreements with those who supply them.

        This is not enough – more than we would of got from the nat's, sure. But not enough.

        • Joe90 10.1.1.1
          27 October 2022 at 4:46 pm

          //

          BANGKOK (AP) — New Zealand said Thursday it will not deal with Myanmar under a major 15-nation trade agreement, the world’s largest that took effect this year, citing the deadly violence and democratic setbacks in the Southeast Asian country after the military seized power last year.

          https://apnews.com/article/business-asia-new-zealand-myanmar-global-trade-b54b9f97ddeb4287762ea2797e44de8d

          New Zealand has joined a boycott of an upcoming counter-terrorism meeting being co-chaired by the Russian and Myanmar militaries, in a move welcomed by activists.

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nz-to-boycott-counter-terrorism-meeting-over-russia-myanmar-roles

          • adam 10.1.1.1.1
            27 October 2022 at 7:38 pm

            Your links are months old, and they did not work.

            As my main link shows, they have not worked for months.

            Shut the door to this militarism

            Cut off the arms.

            • joe90 10.1.1.1.1.1
              27 October 2022 at 8:25 pm

              and they did not work.

              How TF would you know?

              Shut the door to this militarism

              How. Regime change?

              /

              Cut off the arms.

              Perhaps you could have a word with the junta's suppliers, China, Russia, Belarus, Iran and Serbia.

              /

              Meanwhile, the EU and US have banned the supply of arms and any dual use goods, restricted export of comms and monitoring systems that could be used for internal suppression and suspended all and training and cooperation. And sanctions on dozens of individuals and organisations include asset freezes and bans on listed people from entering or transiting through US and EU territory.

  11. Stephen D 11
    27 October 2022 at 11:11 am

    I sure hope the Fonterra sales team is flogging our milk powder outside China.

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