Open mike 27/04/2011

73 comments on “Open mike 27/04/2011 ”

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1. The Voice of Reason 1

   27 April 2011 at 7:17 am

   “Some people think little girls should be seen and not heard.”

   Marion Elliot-Said, better known as Poly Styrene, has died of cancer. She was one of the first woman to adopt punk and with the band X Ray Specs played raucous anti-establishment and anti-consumerist songs in the years when music mattered.

   In later life, she entered a Krishna temple and wanted to be remembered for her spirituality. However, I guess this song will remain her legacy:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AS4bBEMT44
   • Carol 1.1

     27 April 2011 at 7:38 am

     Oh. How sad. She can’t be that old. I remmeber her songs. Loved them at the time. I also remember seeing her perform at an anti-Nazi League rally. We could do with a bit of that protest energy now.
     • The Voice of Reason 1.1.1

       27 April 2011 at 7:51 am

       Only 53. Like Strummer, way to early to go. There\’s a couple of nice articles on the Guardian:

       http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/apr/26/poly-styrene-dies-aged-53

       http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2011/apr/26/poly-styrene-x-ray-spex
       • Herodotus 1.1.1.1

         27 April 2011 at 9:02 am

         Pity I had to hear the news to go searching youtube to remember who she was and the bands music, and those days of listening to the original BFM as this was the only outlet for any alt music (There was later on a rebel radio station many years later on Waiheke for a year or so from memory ). Also back then the influence of the sax by many british bands of that time
         RIP M.E.S.
         
       • Vicky32 1.1.1.2

         27 April 2011 at 6:19 pm

         I followed the Guardian link and noticed, also, that Phoebe Snow has just died! Does anyone remember her?
         What interesting women they both were!
         Vicky
2. RobC 2

   27 April 2011 at 7:20 am

   Can’t find the election results anywhere … 😀
3. ZeeBop 3

   27 April 2011 at 7:32 am

   Gangs are on the rise. Intimidation is rife. Hell even the PnS in
   Hamilton is too intimidated to actually arrest the shoplifters
   (either there’s no law against taking from a open shop without
   paying or why?). When three men accompany a man who shoots into
   the dark are not charged with manslaughter, you have to worry
   about the laws of NZ. When ACT a supposed liberty loving party
   decides to let a loophole in car noise stand, that gangs use
   to intimidate home owners and move into an area. Whatever happened
   to the seizure of property, if gang members assist one another in
   criminal acts why are the houses they do it from, that assist
   each other by being next door to each other not also seized.
   When Housing New Zealand does not know how to eject tenants
   whose friends, visitors, intimidate the street, how can you not think
   that the gangs have infiltrated many of the political parties,
   government social departments, and are slow removing, deregulating.
   Come on! John Key has now decided to shake all the departments up,
   so they are even more ineffective.

   Its a break down in law and order, letting criminal use gangs,
   create an economy that pushes young people into gang culture,
   removes or reshuffles existing law and government departments
   and inevitable create new ways for gangs to innovate their tactics
   in the new vacuum. As The right keep saying, the market is
   much better at innovating, and the left says the markets aren’t
   always good for the citizens, when are we as a society going to
   connect the dots?

   [lprent: Fixed the e-mail and got rid of the dup comment. ]
   • todd 3.1

     27 April 2011 at 8:26 am

     Zeebop

     if gang members assist one another in criminal acts why are the houses they do it from, that assist each other by being next door to each other not also seized.

     Most Gang members rent the houses they live in.

     When Housing New Zealand does not know how to eject tenants whose friends, visitors, intimidate the street, how can you not think that the gangs have infiltrated many of the political parties, government social departments, and are slow removing, deregulating. Come on!

     Housing New Zealand cannot evict people for being in gangs. The Government, as much as it might like to, cannot evict people for being Maori either. They should not intimidate or interfere in peoples lives for who they are or what they do within the law. Perhaps you might support the new fascist regime, but most people don’t. Gangs are a symptom of a failing society. You can make changes so that gangs do not have disaffected people to recruit. You cannot get rid of gangs by evicting their members from their housing.
   • ianmac 3.2

     27 April 2011 at 9:52 am

     Zeebop. The National Party is a gang but a “respectable” one. They wear a patch but its in badge form. Their gang has an air of arrogance and intimidate all those who get in their way. They look out for each other and even build roads to keep other gang members happy. The Key to survival is to just agree with them and keep quiet and avoid eye contact.
4. PeteG 4

   27 April 2011 at 7:48 am

   How to pay our way? User pays option the best: survey

   People think the government does not have enough funds to pay for new infrastructure and would rather see user pays and public-private partnership options to finance future projects, new research shows.

   The New Zealand Council of Infrastructure and Development’s Funding Infrastructure study says that given the gloomy economic climate, Kiwis don’t want the Government to borrow or increase taxes to fund infrastructure, with only 8 and 10 percent supporting the respective options.

   Instead, 40 per cent of respondents prefer user-pays models, such as tolls on motorways, and 35 per cent want the private sector to be more involved through PPP in funding new infrastructure such as roads, public transport, ports and utilities

   Some 18 per cent favour the partial sale of publicly owned assets, such as power companies, ports or airports, as funding source.

   About 24 per cent say the government should not proceed with projects it did not have the money for.

   Not sure if off the cuff survey responses will do justice to complex questions like these.
   National have quite a way to go to get support for partial asset sales.
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     27 April 2011 at 8:40 am

     National have quite a way to go to get support for partial asset sales.

     Who would have thought that ripping off our children and grandchildren in order to concentrate ownership of the nation\’s assets in the hands of the few and the rich, many of them foreigners, would be such a hard sell.

     By the way mate trying to conflate the results from a survey on “user pays” with asset sales where “we all pay” is a serious over-reach.
     • PeteG 4.1.1

       27 April 2011 at 9:37 am

       A couple of ways to look at it:

       – partial asset sales are even less popular than a partial Labour government so should be opposed

       – partial asset sales are more popular than the Greens, Act, Maori Party and NZF combined, should none or all have an airing in parliament?
       • Lanthanide 4.1.1.1

         27 April 2011 at 9:57 am

         Both of those ways are utterly stupid.
         • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1

           27 April 2011 at 1:17 pm

           It is PeteG after all.

           SnoopDog is more popular than all those above options so according to PeteG\’s formula Snoop\’s the next to get representation in the House.
   • MrSmith 4.2

     27 April 2011 at 9:00 am

     Specking to people from the UK PPP’s have been a disaster over their. STOP ASSET SALES .

     Only 18% favour partial sales HA! there’s your answer. STOP ASSET SALES .

     Who are ‘The New Zealand Council of Infrastructure and Development’ just a bunch of people pushing there own barrows like peteG. STOP ASSET SALES .
   • ianmac 4.3

     27 April 2011 at 10:03 am

     Interesting PeteG. Wonder if respondents were able to give more than one answer to each question? That and that but not that.
     500 being surveyed is a bit thin. And for ordinary folk like me each suggestion would require a fairly careful explanation to be adequately informed in order to give a fair answer.

     “National have quite a way to go to get support for partial asset sales.” That is why Key needs Brash/Act to be “forced unwillingly” to go ahead with such sales.
     (No way of getting quotes bold italics etc today?)
   • Draco T Bastard 4.4

     27 April 2011 at 2:12 pm

     The New Zealand Council of Infrastructure and Development’s Funding Infrastructure

     There’s your problem right there. It’s a right-wing think tank that starts off with a conclusion and then goes off to get/twist/spin the numbers to prove it.
5. rosy 5

   27 April 2011 at 8:02 am

   I always thought the biggest flaw with carbon emissions agreements was that there was little incentive for the consuming countries to reduce consumption seeing as the counting was in production that was increasingly in developing countries with no restrictions of carbon emissions. Now there is a report out dealing with this scenario:

   Cuts in carbon emissions by developed countries since 1990 have been cancelled out many times over by increases in imported goods from developing countries such as China, according to the most comprehensive global figures ever compiled.

   Previous studies have shown the significance of “outsourced” emissions for specific countries, but the latest research, published on Monday, provides the first global view of how international trade altered national carbon footprints during the period of the Kyoto protocol.
6. Pascal's bookie 6

   27 April 2011 at 8:05 am

   An audit of the Police (read security forces) in Afghanistan reckons that it’s all corrupt and that the numbers on the payroll don’t reflect reality.

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703856704576285380546943792.html

   Doesn’t mention the *awkward* question about how many folks get trained and then disappear.

   Sucks to be training and financing both sides eh? Clap louder though, we’re WINNING!
   • Colonial Viper 6.1

     27 April 2011 at 8:42 am

     Doesn’t mention the *awkward* question about how many folks get trained and then disappear.

     Disappear with their US paid for firearm, munitions, training, supplies, intel, pay (which probably doesn’t get stopped until someone figures out they have gone)…
7. M 7

   27 April 2011 at 9:47 am

   Brian Easton has written an excellent piece in the Listener for the week April 30-May 6 2011 titled ‘Will the Budget be fair?

   ‘We object so strongly to having our own incomes further reduced by taxation that we think the incomes of pensioners should be reduced instead… In times of depression it is necessary to curtail the community’s consumption of many goods and services. Already people with large or moderate incomes have diminished their expenditure on many of the pleasant but unnecessary things which formerly they enjoyed. Most of them are, however, still tolerably comfortable. A great deal of money is spent on motor cars and holidays, on racing and other amusements. But rather curtail further expenditure of this kind, we think it will become necessary to reduce expenditure… [that] would be most advantageous to the whole community.

   So wrote University of Otago professor Alan Fisher in 1932, satirising the attitudes of many of the elite as New Zealand struggles with the impact of the Great Depression.’

   If you can lay your hands on this Listener do so because the whole piece is so on the money for our times and these are words to live by.
   • ianmac 7.1

     27 April 2011 at 10:12 am

     M. Went looking online Listener but most recent Easton column is for 5 April. Have to wait I guess as I have long since given up on the Listener.
     • Bored 7.1.1

       27 April 2011 at 11:22 am

       I got fed up with the Listener after it turned into a right wing rag that ran constant middle class angst stories about healthcare, crime, educational failure, material aspirations etc. In the end I sent them a letter telling them they were no longer on the purchase list.
       • Vicky32 7.1.1.1

         27 April 2011 at 6:32 pm

         Yes, I feel the same way about the Listener. I am terribly disappointed with what it has become..
         V.
         • Puddleglum 7.1.1.1.1

           27 April 2011 at 9:11 pm

           Agreed completely. With Pamela Stirling and Joanne Black calling the shots what else would you expect. I remember when they dumped Gordon Campbell – according to Stirling it had nothing to do with politics, it was the business case. Some business case that involves dropping the best journalist the magazine had and consistent ‘award winner’.

           If I read one more Listener cover story about how to improve my brain power I’ll be powerful enough to generate all of Christchurch’s electricity needs just by having a quick think (we’ve just had powercuts again here in the South of Christchurch).
           • M 7.1.1.1.1.1

             27 April 2011 at 9:25 pm

             Stirling and Black are self-satisfied twats but I like Easton’s articles. Gordon Campbell now has a weekly gig with the Kapiti Observer but it’s behind a paywall – he’s written some good articles holding the government’s feet to the fire.
     • lprent 7.1.2

       27 April 2011 at 2:07 pm

       Have a look for Brian Easton’s own website (I think it is in the blogroll in the reference sites – yep http://www.eastonbh.ac.nz/ ). He often puts his columns and speeches up there.
8. joe90 8

   27 April 2011 at 10:12 am

   A terrifying account of the Fukushima disaster.

   The Fukushima Dai-Ichi station had 6,415 people on site that day. More than 5,500, like Matsumoto and Imamura, were subcontractors who reported to their clusters of offices in the plant for a head count.

   more
9. joe90 9

   27 April 2011 at 10:28 am

   The legacy of Chernobyl.

   From 1997 to 2000, Paul Fusco made repeated trips to the areas surrounding the Chernobyl nuclear plant. What was meant to be a quick visit turned into a long-term project as he found himself overwhelmed by the fate of the children born within the radiation zone of Chernobyl and the love that their caregivers provided. In this multimedia piece, featuring images from his trips, Fusco reflects on the horrific legacy of the Chernobyl disaster.
10. travellerev 10

    27 April 2011 at 10:47 am

    From 11-12 I will be on Vinny Eastwood’s show. I will be talking about Derivatives, Credit default swaps, Andrew Krieger and John Key.

    See you there!
11. NickS 11

    27 April 2011 at 11:10 am

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/hackers-threaten-parliament-s-website-4143047

    Oh yes please.

    And wiki leaking all the relevant emails over the Act would probably be more effective than a low orbital ion cannon attack, given how stupid certain National and ACT MP’s are…

    [EDIT] And what’s to bet someone brainless will take that teh wrong way.
12. Campbell Larsen 12

    27 April 2011 at 11:50 am

    ZeeBop – your post sounds like National Party electioneering to me

    ‘Law and order’ is one of their stated platforms and just like them you don’t provide any evidence to back up you claim that lawlessness is on the rise.

    Gangs would have little traction in a New Zealand that valued its citizens, a New Zealand with decent pay and opportunities for all, a New Zealand where everyone has a voice in Parliament and a New Zealand that embraced pastimes other than money worship, witch hunts and scapegoating.

    You claim that its a break down in law and order – I say its a break down of Democracy.
    You would presumably put more people in prison where thanks to a new law they no longer have a voice when the problem is that people already feel so disenfranchised that they form alternative societies and hidden economies.

    There is no escalating gang problem – there is however an escalating comprehension problem around what we need to do as a country to prevent more and more people falling by the wayside as the mainstream slavishly lusts after fools gold and in petty spite blames the poor and the weak for their discontent.

    [was supposed to be posted as reply to 3 but refresh issues thwarted intent]
13. prism 13

    27 April 2011 at 12:26 pm

    The OECD advice to us is get capital gains tax and that the present taxation system favours the wealthy. House prices have doubled in years 2002-2007 and for working people now in rented houses – the majority would find it impossible to buy at present. Think that\’s right. E&OE That is something that Don Brash wanted – less people putting their money into buying houses. Labour couldn\’t bring themselves to introduce the tax though new ideas of sweat equity etc got talked about (implemented?). Will National have the balls to introduce it even just one specially tailored to please their paymasters, and not hurt the average citizen too much?
14. The Voice of Reason 14

    27 April 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Just noticed that the date on today\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s Open Mike is wrong. Either that or I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’ve been in an chocolate overdose based coma since Easter.

    (and still haveing to duplicate post as the ani-spam is still freaking out, maaan.)

    ((maybe something to do with the \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’installing components swflash.cab\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’ message running along the bottom?))

    Fifth attempt at posting this!!!

    6th attempt

    7th go
    • The Voice of Reason 14.1

      27 April 2011 at 12:48 pm

      And it won’t let me email to sysop, either.
    • r0b 14.2

      27 April 2011 at 1:00 pm

      Thanks – fixed.
    • lprent 14.3

      27 April 2011 at 1:38 pm

      Ouch…. I will have another look this evening at the comment posting.
    • lprent 14.4

      27 April 2011 at 1:53 pm

      ((maybe something to do with the \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’installing components swflash.cab\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’ message running along the bottom?))
      

      Probably. I’ve just run a set of tests on several browsers (including with IE) on both servers, and I can’t get any errors with the anti-spam. Has anyone else had problems since I removed the javascript editor?
      • Carol 14.4.1

        27 April 2011 at 1:58 pm

        Yep, including today. It stil takes 2-3 tries to post eg that post I did on Gordon Campbell\’s article about Brash & Act.

        And with this one – Firefox on Vista.

        PS: It is easier since the reversion to the old form of commenting – the other one played havoc with link codes when the anti-spam didn’t work.
        • lprent 14.4.1.1

          27 April 2011 at 2:11 pm

          Ok. I’ll check the logs to see what failed with that one – the date/time + Ip should allow me to dig it out.
      • wtl 14.4.2

        27 April 2011 at 2:36 pm

        I had problems earlier today posting to the Horizon poll thread. Is it something to do with a timeout? It seems to work fine after a refresh and immediate paste and send, whereas if you spend some time writing the comment it won’t send.

        Edit: And this short and quick comment worked fine.
      • The Voice of Reason 14.4.3

        27 April 2011 at 4:56 pm

        Cheers, LP, no problems with this comment, so hopefully problem solved.
        • Puddleglum 14.4.3.1

          27 April 2011 at 9:15 pm

          Had a problem with this comment (previously). It came up with the same antispam word as a comment I just did previously. This antispam word is different so, fingers crossed …
15. ianmac 15

    27 April 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Is it just me or have all the options for Bold itallics quote and so on no longer visible/available?
    Using Firefox on Mac.
    • joe90 15.1

      27 April 2011 at 12:56 pm

      LP turned it off yesterday.
      • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1

        27 April 2011 at 2:25 pm

        Yep, so back to using basic html.
16. joe90 16

    27 April 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Pricks.

    They explained away the bone fractures, didn’t ask what caused the lacerations, and called the hallucinations routine. Rather than blowing the whistle, medical professionals entrusted with the care of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay turned a blind eye when there were clear indications of abuse.
    • Vicky32 16.1

      27 April 2011 at 6:50 pm

      What on earth is ‘routine hallucinations’ supposed to mean? I agree with you, Joe90… Che cazzo! Coglione… Bastardi!
17. freedom 17

    27 April 2011 at 1:57 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4931107/UK-PM-signals-air-tax-reform-in-talks-with-Key

    ” “I’m eating for New Zealand,” he joked. ”

    is it me or is that comment somewhat distasteful with today’s record use of foodbanks and rocketing supermarket prices
    • getagrip 17.1

      27 April 2011 at 2:20 pm

      it’s just you
18. Draco T Bastard 18

    27 April 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Middle of this decade is shaping up to be veeeeery interesting.

    According to the latest IMF official forecasts, China’s economy will surpass that of America in real terms in 2016 — just five years from now.
19. ianmac 19

    27 April 2011 at 2:57 pm

    The profits from the RWC are probably overstated in order to dupe us into welcoming the income of great wealth.
    Overstated predictions
    Just trying the shortened link.
20. ianmac 20

    27 April 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Damn Should have been Overstated Predictions
    Damn again should have been http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10721722
21. freedom 21

    27 April 2011 at 3:35 pm

    a banker’s progress

    http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/04/03
22. rose 22

    27 April 2011 at 3:38 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/4927850/Well-known-street-woman-dies

    I\’m wondering where the benny bashers are on this one. Looks like the poor old duck was in a Housing NZ unit & must have been claiming a benefit for many years. I feel sad for the life this woman had, and wondered if she received any help along the way with her addictions, but also a bit cynical about all these tributes. Drunk, abusive beneficiary? Nobody cares about you, unless you\’ve been sitting around long enough to become part of the view.
23. felix 23

    27 April 2011 at 4:06 pm

    John Key says only MPs can be Ministers. Is this true? I thought the PM could appoint anyone as a Minister.
    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      27 April 2011 at 4:10 pm

      I thought the PM could appoint anyone as a Minister.

      Even an Opposition MP?
    • ianmac 23.2

      27 April 2011 at 4:52 pm

      Or Bronagh?
    • felix 23.3

      27 April 2011 at 5:54 pm

      Anyone at all, I thought. It’s a convention that they’re MPs from the PM’s party but I don’t know if it’s anything more than a convention.

      Does anyone know? Can the PM appoint anyone as a Minister?
      • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 23.3.1

        27 April 2011 at 6:11 pm

        Anyone in Parliament. He can’t appoint Judy Bailey.

        In the States, the Pres can appoint whoever he or she likes.
        • felix 23.3.1.1

          27 April 2011 at 6:43 pm

          Ah, thanks. Bummer about Judy though.
          • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 23.3.1.1.1

            27 April 2011 at 7:33 pm

            Yes. Everything would be OK if we just had Judy.
24. Pascal's bookie 24

    27 April 2011 at 6:54 pm

    Campbell’s got tweedledum, then tweedledee. Competing realities in such close proximity. Hope they’ve update the folks @CERN.
    • Carol 24.1

      27 April 2011 at 7:48 pm

      And Rodney was proudly proclaiming to Campbell that Act had democratic processes that would be followed….. after his ramming through of the supercity without consultation, he can claim to value democracy?

      And as for Tweedle Dee…. a proven liar, and critical of Key, who, it seems will be happy to work with this resurrected ex National leader…. recreational fiction is more believable.
25. William Joyce 25

    27 April 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Just when you think some people had shuffled off…..
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/19473099@N05
26. Pascal's bookie 26

    27 April 2011 at 8:01 pm

    Brash got his talking points in, kindly letting labour know what he will be saying for the next 7 months.

    300 Million a week, 300 Million a week, 300 Million a week, 300 Million a week, that’s 1.2Billion a month, all families know you don’t keep borrowing to fund regular spending.

    Pretty predictable, but Labour need to get their own lines to kill this stuff.

    Most people that have been governor of a reserve bank know that a country’s economy is not the same thing as a family’s checking account, so why does Brash want NZ to think it is?

    Greece had brash style austerity forced on them, and it’s making their deficit worse not better. It hasn’t worked there, it hasn’t worked in Spain, it hasn’t worked in Ireland, it’s not working in Britain. It doesn’t solve the problem it’s aimed at solving.

    When brash was the bought and paid for leader of national all he wanted to do was cut taxes on the rich and slash services for the rest of us. He claimed a surplus was theft. Now he’s the bought and paid for leader of ACT all he wants to do is cut taxes for the rich and slash services for the rest of us. He claims a deficit is like krypton. The only things that change are his excuses and the colour of the car his backers put him in.
27. ak 27

    27 April 2011 at 8:16 pm

    300 Million a week, 300 Million a week, 300 Million a week, 300 Million a week

    Yep, onto it Pb, now we see the polling that produced the coup – \”$300/wk debt for every family\” and of course the old favourite \”One law for all\” relaunched by the original artist in the dulcet contemporary tones of \”We are all New Zealanders\” (even Australians if you listen again!)

    One consolation: the polls must also show a narrowing gap to force this unpredictable old nag out of the stable so early. Not sure it\’ll run again, not with this dissipated old hack as jockey.
    • Pascal's bookie 27.1

      27 April 2011 at 8:32 pm

      I know! Apparently article three of the treaty says Australians are New Zealanders. What the fuck does that even mean?

      And who is he supporting in the world cup?

      Lying old goat is just aching to slash taxes for the few and assistance for the many.
28. Pascal's bookie 28

    27 April 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Cops alleged to be planning armed raids against Te Whanau a Apanui in response to Petrobas protests.

    http://mauistreet.blogspot.com/2011/04/terror-raids-in-te-whanau-apanui.html

    http://mauistreet.blogspot.com/2011/04/terror-raids-in-te-whanau-apanui-2.html#comments
29. logie97 29

    27 April 2011 at 8:53 pm

    John has been having quite a lot of productive dinners recently.
    Reports that his soirée with Cameron was full on and he has managed to discuss a lot of NZ issues. He is heading off to Paris to have dinner with Sarkozy where he expects to discuss New Zealand trade issues. All over dinner mind you as reported on RNZ this evening.
    Strange when he has dinner in New Zealand with the likes of Impey he makes just passing comments and that he hadn’t met with MediaWork’s Brent Impey to discuss a $43 million Government loan at all.
30. Campbell Larsen 30

    27 April 2011 at 8:59 pm

    ‘…..Australian Police given standing ovation at airport…’ from John Keys ANZAC speech

    PUKE – PUKE – DOUBLE PUKE

    As long as any other option remains there is no place for foreign military or police on New Zealand\’s sovereign soil.

    Our government has no authority to reassign its mandate or the execution thereof to an external party.

    The people of New Zealand have the right to be shepherded by their own.
    • prism 30.1

      27 April 2011 at 10:05 pm

      Trouble is the dog-eared politicians organising the shepherding are barking mad and not properly House trained.
31. M 31

    27 April 2011 at 9:40 pm

    No Welfare for Whalers This Year?

    http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-110426-1.html

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