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Open mike 28/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:12 am, March 28th, 2019 - 198 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

198 comments on “Open mike 28/03/2019 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Rabid rottweilers of racism here – who see racism wherever they look – will relish an opportunity to explain why the Islamic race is better than the Christian race. Here’s one: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/brunei-lgbt-whipping-stoning-gay-people-sharia-law-a8841706.html

    I ask only that they go further and explain why we ought to tolerate sharia law. It will be helpful to cite usage of sharia by the Sultan of Brunei in support of their rationale.

    • A 1.1

      You’re confusing race vs religion

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

        I’m referring to their tendency to do that, actually! 🙄

        • WeTheBleeple

          “Someone said something upsetting. Can I upset you too. Can I repeat their shitty views here while posing as a concerned citizen”

          Smilies are out already. So human and filled with emotion aren’t you.

          Do you think you’ve been picked on? Where did the bad man touch your argument?

          I suggest you go to Brunei, a one twat delegation, and sort it out.

    • A 1.2

      You’re confusing race vs religion

      • vto 1.2.1

        That’s what has happened over the mosque attacks though, surely …. the call of racism has gone out, yet it was a religious attack

        both are all mixed up at the moment I think

        DF’s issue is entirely legitimate

        • WeTheBleeple

          DF is an idiot. He read one verse of the Quran (in the context of the terrorist manifesto) and decided it required changing. Then he began to tell us how the terrorist has a point, based on this verse and more from the killers mind Dennis was happy to quote.

          Now let’s just get a few words of his post above and take a look

          “the christian race”


          “the Islamic race”

          A muppet by any other name would sound as stupid.

          • Dennis Frank

            Being disingenuous is cool? Or confused? If you genuinely have never heard of satire, there’s a quick remedy: google it. 😎

          • vto

            Sure. But this religious attack has already been deemed a racist attack by many. I think the horse has bolted.

            … side track… religion pfftt … science is continually eating away at it, and has been for eons. Dolly the original cloned sheep should have raised alarm bells with the religious in the world…. yet like all extremists the religious* block, deny, re-define etc..

            .. it would be good to be around in a few more hundreds of years to see where science and religion have got to… methinks science will continue to explain and define more and more of the unknown/religious as simply previously unexplained physical realities…

            .. like science explained the sun as a burning thing and not a god
            .. like science explained the spiritual/soul as a subset of the physical via dolly the sheep.

            .. like science could well explain a ‘creation event’ in the future
            .. like science could well explain that a ‘creator’ existed and still does – elsewhere in the universes, as a physical entity right now, made up of carbon and iron or some such

            • WeTheBleeple

              It is certainly unfortunate that this world contains many iterations of doctrine that condemn ‘others’ and even incite violence. The world also contains a majority of faithful who have adopted more peaceful memes from said doctrines.

              Personally, I think (some of) the worlds religions are a two edged sword. On the one hand they provide community service where governments fail. They also add the all important human contact to such services. Many work tirelessly to help societies less fortunate and are commendable. Others use piousness and scripture to persecute their fellow man. Often churches have both groups present in the one fellowship.

              In all of this, the crazy world, Trump, Brexit, terrorist extremism from both ends of the scale as well as famines, drought, fires, flooding, corruption, exploitation, random nutters, poverty and financial uncertainty, and of course global warming….

              We desperately need leadership. Churches swell in the vacuum.

            • Peter Christchurh nz

              No, religion will never die, just change form.

              Look at the anti-vaxxers. That’s a faith that denies all scientific evidence. Look at the many conspiracy theorists (including those within the Muslim community who have publically claimed it was all a Jewish plot).

              • Stuart Munro.

                Not to mention neoliberalism. It’s a fucking cult – it’s neither explanatory nor are its ostensible benefits reproducible. But still we’re stuck with it because of the number of less acute pencil heads who’ve momentarily got their paws on the levers of power.

            • patricia bremner

              Science is not all things to all men. Faith in our fellow humans is gold. Those who have faith in a higher being often are calm in their certainty.
              Mind you a certain Destiny fellow has shaken that!!

              • Peter Christchurch NZ

                Yes, ignorance is bliss, for some people Patricia.

                • Incognito

                  You do know that science and religion are not mutually exclusive, don’t you?

                  • patricia bremner

                    Yes, a certain astronaut (John Glenn) found science and religion not mutually exclusive, as many others who went to space after him did as well.

                    They gained a sense of perspective perhaps.

        • marty mars

          Vto stay in compassion mate you get ugly fast when your fear takes hold. Just think it through and I’m saying this from compassion believe me.

        • soddenleaf

          So foreign nation of choice wasn’t trying to disarm nz readying us to be invaded.
          Geez can you imagine being a white supremacist and going to a gun meet right now, theyweren’t policing their own now everyone blames them for losing their toys.

          • bwaghorn

            Na they’re to fucking thick to blame the person /people who cost them there toys .
            Its the gubimints fault .
            Some of the memes floating around out there boogle the mind in their stupidity and it’s amazing how many gobble them up and shear them .

            • marty mars

              I hope you are reporting them. Be brave and we can get to a better place.

              • bwaghorn

                I wouldnt call them racist just fucking dumb .
                I have pointed out the stupidity of memes to those dumb enough to shear them to my page . Hopefully it sunk in a little.

        • McFlock

          I suspect in this case that theracism wasn’t against a particular race, it was that the religion he picked was in his mind “not white”.

          • Sam

            It’s the typical trash man being Mr Trash again. Jacinda or any one else can not walk around the APEC conference with there heads held high while Brunei is legally allowed to stone gays to death. It’s just a matter of time before homosexuality is completely normal in society so a hardline fundamentalist religious group will not gain a majority in any APEC or associated forum. You’re just complete trash.

            • McFlock

              Bit early for you to be on the piss again isn’t it? Still in the AM in Aus?

              • Sam

                So that white wash you was seeing magically cleared right up or are you faking it again?

                • McFlock

                  Maybe you should reread what I wrote, and get your parents to help you with the larger words.

                  • Sam

                    You were mind reading again. Like I said, makes you trash.

                    • McFlock

                      Because that was such a big call for guessing whate a white supremacist might be motivated by?

                    • Sam

                      Why it’s much easier measuring internal factors like hormones so when guys or even girls get into fight mode they’ll release a shot of adrenaline which is objective. But it’s more subjective to measure external factors like what some one might say because people lie all the time so it’s like untrustworthy and as I say, trash.

                    • McFlock

                      totally relevant as to whether the fucker committed a racist attack or whether that’s a misnomer.

                    • Sam

                      Wait a sec. So if hormones are irrelevant, I’ll have to question whether you are talking about a human or some sort of machine, perhaps an AI or something. There are plenty of studies that say that hormones play a huge part in why people fight. People pick up on pheromones all the time and want to duke it out. Hitler was one such guy who was disgusted by germs, Jew germs specifically which is much more measurable than saying every German is rascist, Y’know? I happen to like Germany, doesn’t make me a rascist.

                    • McFlock

                      Seriously, you are either taking too many drugs or not nearly enough drugs.

                      The thread is simply a semantic issue about whether the attacks could reasonably be described as “racist”, even if Islam is a religion that crosses ethnic boundaries.

                      My position is that a racist act doesn’t need to be against a single “race”, it can be for a single “race”, as well. Yes, hormones are irrelevant to that semantic discussion.

                    • Sam

                      Yeah, I just don’t care about semantics or true believers or something as much as you do. All I care about is if some nut case gets so emotional it motivates the nut to do something criminal and preventing that. Other wise people are free to do what ever, say what ever. And I say that because of the Urewera raids, like one chance tip off about what some nastiness some one said cause so much preventable harm. And you are like trying to pin the same rhetoric on people, just this time white peoples and that’s just immoral by my objective standards, trash basically.

                    • McFlock

                      And you are like trying to pin the same rhetoric on people, just this time white peoples

                      Two points:
                      No, that’s not remotely close to what I actually wrote.
                      Secondly, if you’re not interested in a semantic discussion, don’t include yourself in a semantic discussion.

                    • Sam

                      So do you agree that in this case that theracism wasn’t against a particular race, it was that the religion he picked in his mind “not white”. ? So do you agree because I don’t, I literally don’t care for semantics. I just don’t believe that too people should agree all the time just to have a debate so, what you have to say for yourself.

                    • McFlock

                      If you don’t care for a semantic debate, don’t include yourself in a semantic debate.

                      I don’t include myself in discussions about sport, because I don’t care for such discussions. I don’t care about Married at First Sight, so I don’t include myself in discussions about that.

                      As for whether a racist attack must be restricted to being against one ethnicity, or whether that description could also include an attack against every ethnicity except a particular one, that is a semantic discussion in which you have no interest.

                      So why do you even ask?

                    • Sam

                      So the question I asked you was do you agree that in this case that theracism wasn’t against a particular race, it was that the religion he picked was in his mind “not white”. ? Yes, or no?

                    • McFlock

                      As I originally said, yes, I suspect that might be the case for that particular fucker. An anti-semite hates Jews, but I suspect this guy hated everyone he didn’t regard as “white”. As in he is a “white supremacist”.

                    • Sam

                      Yeah, and my premis was that by any “objective” standard, measuring how many times he says his race is purer is more measurable, now I’m not going to write a list of rascist rhetoric for every one to see because we need to be able to spot these guys but it is measurable. Or that they put up walls so thick that it makes it difficult for ideas to cross contaminate potential extremist ideology. I hope you’re following me so far because there’s not much value in semantics catching national security threats when there are fix targets that spooks can knock off.

                      Ok so a terrorist attack is kind of a random event. But if you’ve got the history you’ll be able to see that it’s not so random after all, it’s measurable and we can prevent this stuff through internal observations.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, that leads into another discussion about the validity of using past measurements to predict human behaviour, the holy grail of silicon vally, wall st, and the soviet central planning bureaucracy.

                      It doesn’t work, because the inputs required to substantially change the outputs are much smaller and more numerous than can ever be measured. So you come up with an “objective” metric (and objectivity in automated data collection and analysis is a whole other issue) and you find pretty quickly that it unfairly targets some groups while other rogue anusses plan their massacres in secret.

                      But that is all separate from the semantic “was it a racist attack” discussion you included yourself in.

                    • Sam

                      So in one word they don’t think it’s “immoral” to be like spying on your own citizens or even friends and family.

                    • McFlock

                      Um, everything you just wrote was either incorrect or nonsensical. Starting with “in one word”.

                    • Sam

                      Was in quotation marks as “immoral” was the one word. So what I’m saying is your data or statements is them getting interviewed and reported. Maybe like filling out a questionnaire for being like rapped of ideas so if you give that questionnaire to grandma she’s going to say what the fuck, no, who likes getting mind fucked for ideology and then she’ll watch coronation street that same night. It’s just dumb and nothing to orient national security measures around.

                    • McFlock

                      If you were more specific in your phrasing and more conventional in your grammar and vocabulary, you might be able to communicate your ideas more effectively.

                    • Sam

                      The thing about kiwi culture is we obviously value the right to vote and human rights in general, if most people don’t want those rights to apply then it’s not going to happen by consensus. So in this case you might want to establish that viewing content is wrong, is that where you are going with that?

                    • McFlock

                      And what has that got to do with whether the fuckers attack was racist or not?

            • greywarshark

              You say homosexuals have been stoned to death. And I have heard of erring females condemned to this in some countries. That is bad – are you in a group which protests against this.? When you hear of this happening will you let us know who you are protesting to and we can join and add to the number. If enough people notice perhaps, on a change of leader there would be a change of heart.

              • Sam

                Why would we protest? IMO there’s no need to protest because Brunei and New Zealand are members of APEC and we have trade and foreign relations that go back to WW2. Any self respecting prime minister would have the issue top 10 on there things to do at APEC. Like stoning people to death is barbaric and would be enough to get your country thrown out of APEC.

                • greywarshark

                  You are probably a great guy. But never become a politician otherwise the compromises you will have to make to achieve things for your country will fragment you so much you will fall in flakes on the floor.

                  Every country has a stain that won’t wash out, and it pays to remember that and not look at each other’s dirty linen while sitting at meetings with other countries about mutually important matters.

                  I have heard of so many really terrible things in my lifetime that if I concentrated too much on any one of them I would go mad. It is like looking at the sun – you can’t stare at it without hurting yourself. I
                  do hope you understand analogies otherwise I am wasting my time.
                  And I do hope that you can take suggestions to your heart and brain and learn from them, I fear from reading your numerous missives that they don’t get far in. And I suggest that you who are so shocked at what happened, do something personal to protest it. If you try it you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you aren’t like the people who are so callous, and have shown them how different you are.

    • None of your comment makes any sense.

      1. Islam and Christianity aren’t races.
      2. Why would anti-racists necessarily even have a view on whether “Christendom” (for want of a better term) is “better” than the Umma, let alone feel the urge to hold forth on the subject?
      3. I haven’t noticed any anti-racists claiming we should tolerate Sharia law (in this country, at least). Or did you mean “tolerate Sharia law” anywhere in the world including Brunei? That would be even less likely.

    • Gabby 1.4

      Will they franky? Says who?

      • Dennis Frank 1.4.1

        Literalism, Gabby? So early in the day? Do you also do push-ups before breakfast?
        If you’re fishing for admission that I used a rhetorical device, happy to oblige…

        • Gabby

          Is that what fuckups are called now franky?

          • vto

            ha ha make me laugh Gabby – remind me of a previous poster Felix who used to sprinkle these pages with delightful one-liners of wit and mirth

            • Anne

              Yes I remember Felix vto. Maybe the smartest contributor ever to grace this site. His one/two liners were pithy and always went straight to the heart of the topic under discussion. He floored those who tried to up-end him. One day one of them went too far and it turned nasty. Felix got up and walked away never to return. Gabby does remind me of him too.

              • vto

                Yes exactly, he was great.. and as you say impenetrable..

              • RedLogix

                Same here; I think everyone learned very quickly to not rub the kitty up the wrong way 🙂

              • McFlock

                Reminds me a bit of a mate of mine at the pub. Me, I’m mouthing off all the time on everything and anything. Others aren’t shy of sharing an opinion. S is usually pretty quiet. But every so often when one of us (usually me) is in full flight and takes an instant to draw breath, S will say (at most) half a dozen words that just deflate me completely and cause much laughter.

                It really is an art form

          • Dennis Frank

            No, still called push-ups. I leave them to younger folk. Running on the beach just downhill from here is way better. 🏃 + 🧘‍♂️

            • Gabby

              You certainly pushed that one right up franky.

              • Dennis Frank

                Nah, to be fair I can’t take the credit. The Sultan is the dude on the day. Exemplary demonstration of sharia law to leftists everywhere, so they can explain why it ought to be tolerated. I encourage them not to hold back any longer. Get started!! 😎

                • KJT

                  I put up a comment on dishonest debating tactics not long ago in the, somewhat forlorn hope, that some would get the hint, and make an honest attempt to discuss, solutions.
                  Rather than having “pissing contests”.

                  Those who just want to “win the debate”, or show how clever they are, are just playing games, not helping.

                  Look up straw man, Frank.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Please point to the posts, specifically from The Standard where lefties have given you cause to ask for them to:

                  “explain why it [Sharia Law] ought to be tolerated”

                  You are looking for fuel to take to another blog.

                  “They said Sharia Law’s all good”

                  I can only speak for myself. But I’d hazard

                  No, we (the left on TS) did not approve of, or ever argue for, Sharia Law. Your claim is repulsive, your motives? WTF is wrong with you mate?

                  Almost bannable, imo.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    You haven’t heard of sin by omission? It’s a traditional thing. The danger I’m alerting everyone too is that tolerance of islam means tolerance of sharia law.

                    I agree that implementation of sharia law as per the Sultan or Saudia Arabia etc is not currently attempted here (as far as I know). If the Islamic community has issued an official statement that it will not be used in Aotearoa, well and good. We need citation as proof to provide reassurance.

                    Shooting the canary in the coal-mine is a dumb response imo. Best to address the actual issue.

                    • KJT

                      Bullshit Dennis.

                      Does my toleration of Christianity, mean I tolerate the Catholic view on “apostasy” homosexuality or womens rights?

                      Obviously not.

                      Something else for you to look up. False equivalence,

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      It’s a good metaphor, that canary.

                      Only worth listening to when it falls silent.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Man who reads his first verse of the Quran days ago imagines himself

                      ‘the canary in the coal-mine’

                      and supposes that he has some important insight.

                      Reads Terrorist manifesto, right wing rants, concerns over extremist government in Brunei…

                      Calls for reassurance from New Zealand’s ‘Islamic community’.

                      Delusional, and a bigot?

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Still nobody addressing the actual issue. Wonder why evasion is so appealing? It was last year that a media report featured the verse that proves the prophet required his follower to kill unbelievers, WTB. Who would actually want to read the Koran?? Certainly not me, so stop spinning your usual misrepresentations of others.

                      How many times have I already told you here that I’ve never wanted to read that manifesto due to the likelihood psychic contamination. Yet still you wrote “Reads Terrorist manifesto” – in order to prove yourself a liar?? Such behaviour seems a more worthy candidate for banning. Why would any moderators here want to tolerate such deliberate lying? You ought to apologise.

                      And I did not call “for reassurance from New Zealand’s ‘Islamic community’”. Re-read what I wrote! I pointed out how that community could reassure the kiwi public. Allay fears about sharia law. I hope they do so. Peaceful assimilation requires it.

                    • marty mars

                      Still trying to get people banned eh Dennis. You really are a lot less smart than you think you are. Remember the other day with Mickey you thicko? Youre becoming a parody poster, a joke. Thank God you never got near power.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      You’re also misrepresenting me. First time I ever suggested behaviour here could deserve a ban! Get a grip Marty. Just because you feel unable to address the moral issue is no excuse.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      “Who would actually want to read the Koran?? Certainly not me”

                      You just keep going, like an energizer dunny.

                      You were quoting the terrorists views here, don’t be lying, wayback knows.

                    • marty mars

                      Untrue – you did it to me too Dennis. If you grip it any tighter mate the toothpick will snap. Funny how you like running against the tide – just a big ego wank to you, you seem to lack any idea of others. Sad.

                    • RedLogix

                      Most Westerner’s never read the Bible, much less the Quran. Even many believers don’t.

                      But having a reasonable working knowledge of the former, and made an attempt at understanding the latter, what I can say is that most people are going to encounter the English translation of the Quran with almost total bafflement. It’s written in a language that is largely incomprehensible to the modern mind, it’s history, it’s allusions and that it’s really only understood at multiple levels of abstraction simultaneously are a challenge to even the serious student.

                      Personally I got some distance into it and found it too hard. So I’m not posing as any kind of expert.

                      The other big challenge is that most Westerners will instinctively compare Muhammad with Christ, when realistically the better comparison is with Moses. The trajectory of both their ministries meant they were not only the pivotal spiritual source for their followers, but were also responsible for the civil administration of substantial communities in their own lifetime.

                      Nor do most modern people have much grasp of how entirely different the nature of Arabian society was in that era. It was an extremely tribal and fractured society, placing a high value on prowess in battle, while at the same time boasting highly developed poetic literary tradition. There really was nothing resembling the ‘rule of law’ as we would recognise it.

                      So when modern people look at sharia law what we miss is that compared to the relative barbarity it replaced, Islamic Law was highly enlightened. For instance the usual tribal punishment for theft was for a posse of young bloods to track down the suspected offender and disembowel him on the spot. When Muhammad required a minimum number of witnesses, due process and the removal of the left hand little finger for the third offense; it would have been regarded as absurdly liberal by the people of the time.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Hey, WTB, trying to pretend you can’t tell the difference between reading the Koran and commenting on selected quotations from it in the media just insults the intelligence of every reader of what you wrote. Is that really your purpose? You usually come across as smarter than that.

                      Plus it’s the only quote from it that I’ve ever felt the need to comment on. Due to the apparent fear & motive of the shooter.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Suitable context for relative judgment, RL. People tend to move on. Too bad ideologies don’t move with them, eh? I have no problem with the general practice of islam. I’m only targeting the toxic bit, which is maintained via ideology down through the centuries.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      If I did it to you then I’m sorry Marty. It isn’t part of my conscious way of contributing, so I suspect it was just how you perceived something I wrote (not my intended meaning).

                      Also, ego is a seeming thing. I’m aware of the extent to which I fight the good fight as per childhood Christian brainwashing. If my conscience did not require me to do so on an issue by issue basis, I would relinquish that motivation. I’m old enough to!

                      But someone ought to represent the centrist view here as a positive alternative to partisan leftists. Have you noticed how easily I identify common ground with non-partisan leftists here? And you sometimes – you seem to oscillate between both stances. I just wish you would copy me & play the ball, not the man. Consensus never develops if participants polarise on a personal basis.

                    • marty mars

                      @ Dennis yep fair enough.

                      The right are a problem. Centrists are also a big problem imo. You Pete George, red logix all push the middleman line and I think it is dishonest because you enable the right and dilute solid left thinking and actions so really you may as well be right as far as I’m concerned. The velvety smooth tones dripping with false concern make my skin crawl when middlemen do it. So yeah nah.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Thing is, the concern isn’t actually false! Dunno why you would even want to try that stance on. Can you really not detect genuine motivations in others?? Doing so is part of emotional intelligence, which you do exhibit in other respects. It’s vital to how groups function. I’m aware it ain’t easy online, of course.

                    • marty mars

                      Way to miss the point. ffs you’re a frustrating bastard – bet you’ve heard that before. You aren’t an ally you’re on the other side imo for the reasons above.

                    • RedLogix


                      So I’ve been contributing here for 12 years and it’s all a fake? That is an impressive long bow you have there.

                      Nor am I a centrist, politically I’m moderate left with a libertarian streak.

                      But you are correct; us moderates who in fact comprise at least 90% of the political spectrum, are capable of working with people of all persuasions, and we are the ones who stand in the way of radicals like you imposing yet another mad, utopian revolution every 10 minutes or so.

                      So yes I do understand why you shit on me so. If indeed I was a fake you wouldn’t get so angry with me all the time.

                    • KJT

                      Ever thought that rather than being “partisan”, we are responding to an observed reality.

                      Whereas the fence sitters are pretending to be concerned and looking for solutions, when in reality it is all bloodless to them, so long as their comfortable middle class boat, doesn’t get rocked.

                      The fact is for everyone to do better, some of us have to give up a little, socialism. And I am one who has enough income to be paying higher taxes. A small price to pay to live in a decent society.

                      Mad utopian revolution. Like the first Labour party, you mean?
                      I haven’t seen anyone, you call “partisan left” advocating anything more extreme than Democratic socialism, in a mixed economy. Not much different from the statements of our present Prime Minister.

                      Your concern is noted, but it doesn’t help even one young person into a home, or a decent job, when you support those who are doing the harm.

                    • RedLogix

                      so long as their comfortable middle class boat, doesn’t get rocked.

                      What the same middle class boat that everyone aspires to in order to escape poverty and insecurity?

                      Did you know that globally there are now more people in the middle class, more people who have escaped poverty than any time in all of human history? 3.8 billion people, more than half of humanity?


                      So exactly why do you want that boat rocked again?

                    • marty mars

                      @ red yep you stand in the way and obstruct and distract and dilute left thinking. You are a roadblock to the future. Your fakeness is you think you add value to the left – you don’t imo you add value to the right.

                    • KJT

                      How to miss the point again @Red.

                      We have more people in poverty in New Zealand, than we ever had.

                      Despite having more physical resources per capita than almost any other country.

                • greywarshark

                  I have a picture in my mind of a nice doggie with a stick and the game is to drop it and then the other picks it up and throws it. And doggie runs after it swiftly and happily and brings it back. And part of the game is the doggie holds onto it and won’t drop it so it can be thrown again, until encouraged by the other; ‘Drop it, drop, drop’.

                  Should the doggie be left holding the stick and the game finish?
                  Should it be left to hold the stick and beat everybody with it?

                  As everyone knows who has a dog, this game can go on for hours.
                  In the dog’s mind it is fun and a very fulfilling and satisfying activity
                  but the other involved has to decide when to stop and do something else. The game then is put on hold, and the those involved go away and attend to other pursuits.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Perhaps someone could report other newsworthy events so we can switch focus? But I’m already in the garden pulling wet weeds. Still at least one dark frog in the rainwater tub.

                    Attended Taranaki 2050 workshop on people & talent session 3 yesterday. Still amazed that the govt is actually providing a design-for-resilience process. Impressed with both the format and conduct of their process too. Full marks to the coalition + Greens again!

                    • greywarshark

                      Next Sunday in the How to get there post – Would you put up a small – even bulleted – report of what impressed you about the event’s outcomes, please? And what you think about the Labour Coalition’s plans and directions and achievements in them so far?
                      It sounds so interesting to hear positives is so good and what you think we should look for government progress in, and perhaps what isn;t being grasped satisfactorily. Regards to you. Woof, wag.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Had been thinking of doing so. Hope I will remember to. Pulling together impressions, commenting on design & process…

    • reason 1.5

      “Pence’s ascent to the second most powerful position in the U.S. government is a tremendous coup for the radical religious right. Pence — and his fellow Christian supremacist militants — would not have been able to win the White House on their own. For them, Donald Trump was a godsend.”

      ” Horror that a candidate who ran on a platform of open bigotry, threats against immigrants and Muslims, and blatant misogyny will soon be president is now sinking in. ” https://theintercept.com/2016/11/15/mike-pence-will-be-the-most-powerful-christian-supremacist-in-us-history/

      Here’s a Muslim man answering dennis s negative Muslim stereotyping ,,,,, it’s probably best he says it ….. as dennis s sort always complains about the Muslim community not condemning enough ….

      The draconian nation of Brunei to enforce capital punishment for LGBT
      •This is barbaric & has no semblance w/Islam & human rights
      •UK heavily funds & supports Brunei—that must end
      •Brunei’s own leadership is corrupt & evil This is wrong. It must stop.

      The article reports the UK has thousands of troops in Brunei and buys oil from Brunei. Moreover Brunei was a UK colony until 1984 & its anti-LGBT laws were enacted during that colonial period. It’s a wealthy dictatorship supported by a world superpower. Horrible combination.

  2. Jenny - How to get there? 2

    The danger of fighting monsters is that you risk becoming a monster yourself.

    Darkness doesn’t drive out darkness.

    Only light can do that.

    Hate doesn’t drive out hate.

    Only love can do that.

    Martin Luther King.

    On the fact that every frontline New Zealand police officer now has a compulsory glock on their hip, (alongside their tazer).

    That police with fully automatic weapons attend every public event.

    That the National Party are seeking even more intrusive powers, and even lesser accountability for our spy agencies.

    • KJT 2.1

      I am totally against the routine arming of police, for many reasons.

      But. I agree with it for the next few weeks, as an measured response to an immediate threat.

      Given the police commissioner has put a time limit on it.

      Like you, I don’t think the spies need any more power.

      They have shown they cannot be trusted with those they have.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 2.2

      Love drives out hate

      The son of a Japanese immigrant who fought for New Zealand, makes a powerful statement against xenophobia and fascism at the age of 95.

      “People like John gave my children a tomorrow and are an example for future generations. They dared to stand up against injustice and fascism and now they have to fight it again,” it said.

      Others said they were touched by his simple deed and would like to express their appreciation to Mr Sato.

      A friend read the letters this morning to Mr Sato, who said he’s no hero and was just doing what he could.

      Mr Sato said the most important thing he has learnt in life is love, and he’s still learning.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Glenn McConnell is a journalist and student. He writes a fortnightly column for Stuff. His view of the manifesto suppression:

    “I’ve seen people online offering to distribute the document via less well moderated sites than Facebook, in retaliation against the censor. The rare banning is simply a warning shot. It’s virtue-signalling in its greatest form. It lets people know that, if they share views like that, they really have no place in New Zealand. They are not “us”.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111574053/were-banning-their-comments-manifesto-and-books–lets-stop-and-talk

    “As valiant as our campaign to silence racism may seem, what we really need to do is understand it. We’ll need to meet people, in real life. Perhaps the only good thing of these past days has been meeting people. I’ve seen diversity and genuine interest from strangers in one and other. It has restored a sense of heart during a time that has seemed so dark. Maybe we also need to reach out to those who share views similar to the attacker. Our only other option is to live under a surveillance state.”

    He’s getting dangerously close to having an open mind, eh? Leftist brain police will have to bombard him with denial. Hippie advocacy of peace, love & understanding prevailed over the mainstreamer’s ethos of war, hate and misunderstanding during the seventies, but perhaps we are due to repeat the cycle…

    • WeTheBleeple 3.1

      This is your expert’s advice

      “We’ll need to meet people, in real life.”

      You are correct, that’s ‘dangerously close to an open mind’, and the left will undoubtedly be upset by the concept of sunlight and human relations.

      Thanks for the wisdom.

      “Maybe we also need to reach out to those who share views similar to the attacker.”

      We’ve seen you doing exactly that. What a humanitarian.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

        Unlike you to give credit where it’s due, but I appreciate the momentary lapse. 😇

        • WeTheBleeple

          I think this is a much better example where censorship might be considered OTT, but maybe still worth a debate:

          The word: cyclist.


          • Dennis Frank

            Indeed a good example. Who would have thought that cyclist is dehumanising? However, social science research would need to establish a solid basis for deciding that the word does have that effect in the minds of most drivers.

            • Gabby

              People who drive motor vehicles franky. Please don’t dehumanise them or Nanelle will get upset. I’m sure the people who conduct research have done a fine job for the person who teaches at a place where people go to learn stuff after they finish learning stuff at the places where people under 18 go to learn easier stuff.

            • WeTheBleeple

              I imagine certain phrases can become ‘curses’ rapidly in social media where meme generation is a full time preoccupation for some.

              There are some drivers who feel the road is solely their domain, and cyclists are encroaching on it. While I think entitlement is a large part of the issue, it comes from both sides. We’ve all seen the clips of cyclists two-three abreast on winding country roads – and cyclists have all been cut off at some point…

              Again, two aggrieved sides, escalation, words traded, sides taken.

              Across the road from me a Professor who cycles. Next door a tradie with a pick up. Neighbors and friends.

              Neither the enemy, but when I drive the cyclists are annoying, and when I cycle the cars are dangerous. The (slight) dehumanising aspect occurs in a split second. The brain keeps this rot in check so I can drive A-B and all involved get home safely.

              The driver who thinks the road is theirs, the cyclist who thinks the road is theirs, both part of the problem. imo.

              I think referring to cyclists as people on bicycles has merit. But is it all a bit silly?

              • Dennis Frank

                You’re right – there’s a silly side plus a serious side. I’ve encountered the `cyclists two-three abreast’ thing myself several times. I wonder if they are deliberately breaking the law or if the law got changed & I never noticed.

                I became a competitive driver in Auckland & Sydney traffic, ended up always beating others to the gap in the traffic flow, but nowadays take it real easy. I know how road rage kicks in fast.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Absolutely agree to take it easy.

                  My advice to any friends visiting AK is to give themselves an extra half hour for their journeys across town. So if traffic hits they’re still ok not frothing. Phones help too. Pull aside and let your destination know you’re in traffic it takes the pressure right off.

                  And I always take some reading with me, for when traffic is light I get to relax before meetings. Others might prefer something else to reading.

                  I think it would be useful to spread memes/public education something around when you see a cyclist – it is a human on a cycle – when you see a car – it is a human in a car. Obviously more catchy than that…

                  From drivers vs cyclists to humans in cars and humans on bikes.

                • RedLogix

                  The main reason why cyclists don’t always keep closely to the left is to prevent motorists from cutting them off at intersections, pinch points, bridges and roundabouts.

                  Every cyclist frequently has the experience of a car or truck coming dangerously close at a point where the rider has no room to move, and as a matter of simple survival they quickly find the best tactic is to move to the centre of the lane for a short period to stop this from happening.

                  Then when space permits the rider or group will generally move back closer to the left. Cyclists riding in large groups are almost always moving at a reasonable speed usually > 40km/hr and while people love moaning about these ‘lycra-clad road rats’, for the most part they really don’t hold motorists up for more than 30secs or maybe a minute or two at worst.

                  While the road code does give guidance around motorists to leaving a 1.0 or 1.5m passing distance, the reality is that there are many places where achieving that is not possible.


                  Years back I was riding somewhere in the South Is near Timaru heading onto a bridge, when an NZR bus roared past at full speed, frighteningly close. I crossed the bridge and a bit shaken took a break on the other side. I still recall my shock at finding a distinct little pile of NZR bus paint on the buckle of my roadside pannier.

                  • aj

                    Good link that RL, A most important point is made:
                    ” If it is a narrow road, then generally the safest option is to overtake using the next lane over, when the way is clear. If it’s not safe to overtake due to oncoming traffic, then slow down and wait – it’s what you would do if it was (say) a slow-moving tractor. It’s interesting how so many drivers jump straight to the default option of trying to squeeze past between a bike and an adjacent motor vehicle”

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    In cities one reason not to keep left is car door openers – a real hazard.

                    Back when I biked frequently I used to reckon on one close call a week, and the only real solution is to keep as far as possible away from drivers. Things like the free left turn bikes take at lights are a safety thing – they put space between you and trouble.

                    • soddenleaf7

                      Park cars, when the driver exit, they can’t see a cyclist, the further left the more in the blind spot. So good drivers know this, and govt should lower speed to 30 in tightly parked areas.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      @ Soddenleaf

                      There is actually a simple cure for the car door bike killers. In the Netherlands, drivers are taught to open doors with the inside hand, which tilts the shoulders and makes looking behind much easier – no risk of cricks in necks.

                  • Kevin

                    As an (almost) daily cyclist, the biggest thing motorists need to remember is, cycles are allowed to ride in the lane. Not confined to the left of the white line where the parked cars, glass, bits of metal, sharp stones etc reside. If I am passing parked cars I allow for someone opening the door.

                    I understand the arguments from both sides and in general it boils down to tolerance. I have had quite a few arguments with people over the ‘rights’ of cyclists but I have found that asking them whose fault it is why kids no longer find it safe to bike to school usually shuts them up.


                    Not really sure how being licensed, have a WOF and Rego contributed to this situation…

                    • greywarshark

                      There is such an unsatisfactory story here. Cyclists are not being looked after. Everyone is disadvantaged who is trying to be responsible and not use cars.

                      * A cyclist is doing good for themselves and the planet.
                      * But there is not a safe lane for them.
                      * If they go for too long in the way of a car the driver can’t use the car effectively. So has to dawdle behind the cyclist. and holds up a line of traffic at 10-20km when the road was built and planned for 40 km up.
                      * Bikes on pavements – I hadn’t realised that adults aren’t legally allowed to ride there, just children. I don’t notice adult cyclists paying much attention to the law, and both adults and schoolboys in my area are menacing pedestrians without concern as they whip by either silently, or alarmingly with bells announcing I’m coming – get out of my way.
                      * If one runs into me and I fall over and sprain or break something, who cares? Who pays for my doctor visit, for the extra dressings I need, for my pain relief, for my lost opportunities while I recover at home stiff and sore? Who recompenses me for the loss of my freedom to move relaxed and peaceful on the footpath without the constraint of awareness, to enjoy my surroundings without being compromised by vehicles that can harm me?
                      * Cyclists involved in an accident have those same problems.
                      So they move onto the footpath and endanger pedestrians and behave just like the drivers they are avoiding.
                      * The effect of cyclists children and adults on the footpath is
                      that pedestrians have to be on the watchout as if they are walking on a road with slowish traffic; a pavement, is supposed to be a safe haven from vehicles on the road, but is now a path taken over by two-wheeled vehicles, mobility carts, scooters and now Lime scooters.

                      Ways forward:
                      * All bicycles with a chain and pedals, even little ones must have a licence with number plates, not too costly but enough to cover the adminisration and number plate costs. This will put in people’s and children’s minds that they are driving a moving vehicle and they must take care, and avoid pedestrians, not the other way round.
                      * Same for mobility scooters which will be required to use the footpath unless it is too narrow etc. (On the road mobility scooters are really dangerous as their riders are often away in another world, or in a bubble of entitlement that doesn’t include being courteous to other road users.)
                      * Anyone who runs into someone or causes an accident should, as part of a code of behaviour which will be drawn up and publicised continually to bike and mobility riders, have to help the person they have struck or caused to fall, and leave their licence number.

                      ** And car imports should gradually be reduced, cars should go back to normal size not be high, metal, tiny houses.
                      * Public transport increase.
                      * Legitimate taxi companies set up an arrangement where you can place an order for one at a set price, but choose to register for a shared route going to your destination with the cost apportioned. This might take people to a rail hub, a bit like a small bus but would come to your door. There would be a flag fall fee for registering for the shared ride.
                      * Uber drivers have to pay a flag-fall to the government for each ride. And the system have to pay a user-free for use of the roads.

                      * Roads should where possible have a wide left hand lane for bikes.
                      * Planners should stop doing just the same as they do overseas as we are different. Other systems may not work in NZ. Give them a try in some places but not blanket over a whole area.
                      * Bicycles and bus and truck drivers should have special understandings of each other, be encouraged to see themselves as special, worthy people, looking out for each other; bicycles good for the planet and trucks and buses hauling things and people around – helping, working for community and our business. Each aware of the other and trying to be very clear about hand signals and being aware of future moves.
                      * Bicycles to have rear mirrors on handlebars so they know what is behind.
                      * Lime scooters zipping past my place or on city footpaths always a bit fast are going to be more than an irritation.
                      * There needs to be a tiny, inexpensive Court to deal with infractions (and perhaps fractures) on the footpath so that pedestrians and other users have somewhere to meet and settle who should pay costs after injury and damage. And an established level of violence is to be allowed. Hitting someone over the head with a handbag just okay, but if it has a brick in it, no. Using a bottle will be forbidden. Slapping with gloves means a fine or cycle pumps at dawn with seconds present.
                      And there should be a code of conduct – pedestrians must not stand having long conversations in the middle of the path; no poking umbrellas through the bicycle spokes, or at riders. Water pistols would be allowed, but not containing indelible dyes.

                      I have written down all the thoughts that came to me. We need to make changes and I thought that would be a nice lot to start with. No doubt there will be some helpful comments on these.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    I’m definitely learning things here I’d not fully considered before with regards to cyclists on roads.

                    I think more public education is required – education in the points cyclists and car drivers are making here, and other relevant points of course.

                    Life saving education. Bonus – making the roads more pleasant to be on.

                    Time management
                    Understanding the other’s perspective and situation (a mile in the others shoes)
                    Re-humanising fellow travelers

                    • cleangreen

                      WTB= ” I think more public education is required – education in the points cyclists and car drivers are making here,”

                      What about truck drivers too?

                      2400 truck movements pass every day on Napier’s roads to Napier port so how do you intend to police the trucks?

                      Answers please?
                      Camera surveillance perhaps like Tauranga had on noisy trucks??

                      14 Feb 2014 12:55 pm | NZ Transport Agency


                      NZ Transport Agency

                      1. Media releases
                      Noise camera a ‘sound’ initiative
                      14 Feb 2014 12:55 pm | NZ Transport Agency
                      The NZ Transport Agency is working with the Road Transport Association NZ, Log Transport Safety Council, and National Road Carriers to reduce engine braking noise through a trial in Tauranga.
                      A ‘noise camera’, which has been installed on SH2 Takitimu Drive near the Elizabeth St roundabout, is at the centre of the trial.
                      Transport Agency Freight Director Harry Wilson says the camera, a first for New Zealand, photographs only those trucks using noisy engine brakes.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      “Answers please?”

                      I don’t have answers.

                      The conversation will require all road users and persons cleverer than me at the table. There’s obviously misunderstanding on both sides (cyclists/motorists) as to road rules regarding cycling, and motorists ‘rights’.

                      Maybe the process would be something like: Work out exactly what’s what – data, law and the views/experiences of road users and experts, see if things might need a tweak to improve safety and then tweak, package in laymans terms a guide for all road users, disseminate the information broadly.

                      I like the noise cameras, clever.

                • KJT

                  Two abreast is legal. You just have to think of them as just another slow vehicle. Like the old guy with a cap driving at 30 k.

                  Also riding in front of a car to ensure your safety, on a road or roundabout where it is too narrow for the car to pass you against oncoming traffic, without pushing you off the road.

                  Some Car drivers often think they have an absolute right to pass a bike, and a tractor or any slower vehicle, in any situation. Or to turn left in front of you.

                  The rules say you cannot pass unless you can do it safely. Same as with any vehicle which holds you up. That means being able to keep at least 1m from the bike.

                  I’ve biked in just about all New Zealand cities. Most car drivers are actually OK. Often they simply don’t see you. Something you have to allow for. Their focus is on other cars. I’ve decided Auckland drivers drive with their eyes shut 🙂
                  It is only in Wellington, I’ve had car drivers deliberately try and run me over.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    I stopped cycling into uni in Auckland it was too dangerous. Rain made road surfaces reflective and shiny, sun made buildings reflective and shiny, pedestrians darting across, buses weaving in and out… I walked.

                    Sensory overload!

                    Much nicer walking, and often just as fast as the backed up traffic.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Two abreast was illegal when I passed my driver test & got my licence in ’67. Either that or I’m now so old memory is unreliable.

                    • KJT

                      “Many cyclists believe that the law is completely on their side with this behaviour, as the Road Code (and the underlying legal Road Rules) allows cyclists to ride two abreast. However the rules do not give cyclists the right to ride two abreast in all circumstances. For example, they must resume cycling single-file when passing to the right of another vehicle, including a parked vehicle. Technically this makes it rather hard to ride next to your mate on many urban streets; you’d be constantly switching back and forth between one and two abreast.”

                      Always ride as near as you can to the left side of the road. If you are holding back traffic you must move as far as possible to the left side of the road to allow traffic to pass, as soon as you can. However, you do need to cycle in a sensible position on the road to keep safe. See Cyclist responsibilities for more information.
                      Two cyclists can ride next to each other but should take into account the keep left rule and not hold back traffic. Three or more people cycling next to each other is illegal, except in the case of a road race that has been given traffic management approval from a road controlling authority.

      • McFlock 3.1.2

        It’s actually a pretty balanced article, DF just quoted the bits that are the cons against censoring nazis.

        • I feel love

          The amount of effort to lift your foot slightly off the accelerator or softly push the break pedal is nothing compared to those cyclists using all their energy in all weather. It astounds me how impatient drivers are, just calm the fuck down. Sure there are idiot cyclists, but there are a screaming lot of bully car drivers out there.

  4. joe90 4

    I doubt there’s ever been a war in Yemen without British involvement.

    At least five members of Britain’s special forces have reportedly been injured in gun battles in Yemen. If true, the story has serious implications because the British government has long insisted that it is not a party to the conflict.


    • The Lone Haranguer 4.1

      Well technically it may have “serious implications” but who really cares about Yemen when the papers are full of Brexit.

      The “man on the Clapham Omnibus” – (the famous average Joe in England) worries about himself and whether Brexit will affect his holiday in Spain this year.

      May is toast, so who is actually worrying about Yemen? Surely not her, and it wont sell papers but for one day, Then its back to Brexit and how it will affect our holidays in Spain.

    • Gabby 4.2

      Were they hit by fragments of wedding guests?

  5. WeTheBleeple 5

    You’se kin pry mah BBQ tongs from mah cold deed hands.

    Kiwi Nationalism.

  6. joe90 6


    • Ha ha – oh yes there fuckin’ is matey! I’ll be feeling both joy and happiness when yours finishes.

    • The Lone Haranguer 6.2

      I usually find that somewhere between 45-55% of the nation finds joy and happiness in the end of a high profile politicians career.

      Tho the numbers may have been higher when Bill Birch pulled the pin

    • Stuart Munro. 6.3

      Poor Jacob isn’t nearly as smart as his dad Bill.

  7. It will be interesting to know who has been pressing this guys buttons in Christchurch, I doubt very much he is a “Lone Wolf”, I think some of the other shooters at the Bruce Rifle Range should be investigated by the SIS ?

    • Dennis Frank 7.1

      I had the same impression from the ex-soldier who joined that gun club, was dismayed by the culture, and never went back! Saw him interviewed a couple of times, thought he was a credible witness.

    • Gabby 7.2

      I’m sure the authorities are all over it. Unless someone’s cousin / school chum would rather they weren’t.

    • The Lone Haranguer 7.3

      I would think that the other shooters at Bruce Rifle Range will have been investigated thoroughly in the past week or so.

      To not do so would be negligent

  8. marty mars 8

    So disgusting and the cause of SO MUCH SUFFERING – just horrendous.

    “The figures released this month by Oranga Tamariki into the extent of child abuse in state care are shocking.

    There’s no way you can look at these statistics – 220 children physically, sexually, and emotionally abused and neglected in a mere six month time period – and not be appalled. “


    • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

      That article was originally published on the morning of the 15th. I recall Siobahn and myself, both as former foster parents, had a brief discussion about these dreadful stats. This was before our world exploded.

      Significant is that the the numbers are high because Oranga Tamariki are collecting and recording the data differently….there may not actually be more abuse…it is that the abuse is being counted.

      Also relevant is the breakdown of which particular type of person involved with the care of these children is attracting the greatest number of complaints…and type of complaint.

      And when Oranga Tamariki fail to act decisively on notifications from concerned neighbours… https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/385757/little-waihi-residents-vow-that-2yo-nevaeh-jahkaya-whatukura-ager-s-death-not-in-vain

      This whanau’s world was exploding in full public view, in the glare of the media spotlight, and none of the authorities the neighbours expressed their concerns to about the wee girl’s safety stepped in to save her life.

      • marty mars 8.1.1

        Yes I wanted to bring it back to awareness for some – for others like us we havent forgotten it – just timing really.

      • WeTheBleeple 8.1.2

        It is so difficult to rejoin/trust society when state sanctioned caregivers are in fact tormentors and abusers. Especially where folk then go to other authorities only to be patronised and have it all swept under the carpet.

        And so a new generation arrive with anti-social tendencies created by society.

        I remember you posting on the 15th about this. I left a poem there as it’s all a bit close for comfort to talk at length about here.

        I met Shane in State ‘Care’.


        He was 14 and he slept
        Curled up in our dog kennel
        Under an old cooking apple tree
        That had seen

        It was better, he said
        than the last foster care
        and the one before that
        and back through the years

        He had the prettiest longest eyelashes
        This side of the Caribbean
        and he
        Won hearts and minds
        and he
        Broke them again

        The prize, he said, is Doctor’s bags
        Chemists shelves
        And surgery swag
        As he lit out from his captors
        Once more

        He was caught then escaped
        Till too aged for such japes
        Then they took him to Waikeria
        To grow old.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          I’d like to think that it is understood that not all ‘state sanctioned caregivers’ are/were tormentors and abusers…

          Most of us did our very best…realising that in many cases it would never be enough.

          I can say with some certitude that all of the children we cared for needed to be removed from their family home to ensure their immediate safety. The myth that authorities are constantly cruising, seeking to violently remove perfectly happy children from safe and loving homes needs to be debunked once and for all.

          It simply isn’t true in the vast number of instances. And when they are tardy in responding to reports of children at risk…yet another dead child.

          That the authorities (because who the hell knows what we’ll be calling them next restructuring) don’t place these children in safe environments and don’t provide much needed support for these children and their new (hopefully temporary) families is the true crime.

          The fact that so many children’s homes are so absolutely dysfunctional, and there seems to be no imperative to find out why is a national disgrace.

          • WeTheBleeple

            “Most of us did our very best…realising that in many cases it would never be enough.”

            I absolutely agree. And if not for people like yourself in the system, some of us would have had no hope.

            • Rosemary McDonald

              What got/still gets me is that there have been no significant improvements in the care and protection of children since I was officially an ‘at risk’ child some fifty odd years ago.

              • WeTheBleeple

                Yes. There’s so much that works in society, but why aren’t we actively taking on feedback and fixing the things which aren’t working and especially causing harm? BAU finds it inconvenient? Too simplistic…

                Perhaps we are at least in some areas now making progress. For me it seems the wheels grind interminably slower for those aware of the issues.

                e.g. Some people have been fighting on climate change for half a century or maybe more, that’s got to be SO frustrating. I was a late tagger on, maybe 20 years, still feeling a bit tired of talking about it 😉

              • greywarshark

                I remember someone caring for a young child who came to them without any of the personal management milestones, and was helped greatly. Soon she could use the toilet, didn’t do it all in her pants/naps. But each time she went back home to visit she would return having reverted to the default system she had adopted in all the basics. It was very hard to deal with and it seemed that keeping her in touch with home was possibly spoiling her development, retarding her so she would be behind her peers as she grew up. It also made foster care of her more difficult than it should have been, and more demanding on the rest of the household.

  9. aom 9

    This week, there have been two opinion pieces commenting on gangs following to the Christchurch massacres. Stuff’s offering from Mike Yardley, was based on old prejudices, unsubstantiated assumptions and was dripping with cynicism and insulting language. In it he advocated legal changes which would presume gang members should not share the same rights as others and indicated that gangs should be disposed of by the State using violent means. To add flavor, he referenced a comment by the Minister of Police that was at odds with the aspirational, inclusive and kindness of the Prime Minister that have gained international respect. The rant was obviously poorly researched, ill-considered and lacked the insight and eloquence of Paito Fatu, the inspirational president of the county’s largest Mongrel Mob chapter. In summary, he depicting a country where the ‘good people’ are constantly being assaulted in a war with gang members who are armed to the teeth with semi-automatic rifles that they won’t surrender. A strange commentary when it was white supremacy that stirred the pot. Stuff carried the opinion piece at the most inopportune of times but at least had the decency to remove it from the website within hours. On the other hand, today’s Herald carries an informed nuanced opinion piece by a qualified researcher and expert, Jarrod Gilbert (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12216426).

    • Gabby 9.1

      Gilbie has no idea aomy.

    • Bruce 9.2

      Its becoming so hard to tell who these ‘good people ‘ are,

      thank some deity for bertold brecht

    • WeTheBleeple 9.3

      Sonny Fatu inspired nothing but fear for a long time. The name is legend in some circles and it aint good. A supposed change of heart is commendable, but cynicism is not unreasonable (not talking about the news attack pieces but people in general).

      I commend the man for his current stance. It is up to him to show if he is posturing or genuine. We love redemption stories, and they do occur. If Sonny can turn it around, there’s hope for a lot of bad bastards.

      Address addictions, they make bad stuff worse and healing much harder.

      Address hate by humbling yourself in the service of others more vulnerable than yourself. When love is given, love is received, not before.

      Service to your community builds pride.

      Staying your hand shows strength. Especially where you are stronger physically.

      Re-establish ties to culture and family where broken. Be patient. Where family is not present build new ties based on love and respect.

      It’s so much better being part of the world than hating it. Despite the fact some may have lists of grievances against them, it is not an excuse to cause harm.

      You could find good news every day if you sought it out. Even better, you could create good news.

      Some might think I’m patronising, they have no idea of the shit I’ve survived to be here.

      • RedLogix 9.3.1

        It’s so much better being part of the world than hating it.


        Some might think I’m patronising, they have no idea of the shit I’ve survived to be here.

        No it was always clear you were being honest and authentic to your own story …

    • Rosemary McDonald 9.4

      Yardley’s piece is still there….https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111533164/despite-their-sorrow-over-the-terror-attacks-nz-gangs-have-not-changed

      …and Gilbert is not entirely 100% without a modicum of skepticism, in fact he says…

      ” There will be sceptics, of course, and that isn’t just understandable; it’s probably healthy.

      Not only are the Mongrel Mob responsible for some of New Zealand’s most notorious crimes – think Ambury Park 1986 – but they have also been apt to bite the hand that helps them.

      In 2012 a chapter in Dunedin were given access to $20,000 of Whanau Ora funding and they promptly used it to set up a cannabis growing operation. Entrepreneurial, for sure, but not what was envisaged.

      So people are right to cast a narrow eye to see how this plays out, but the evidence thus far is there to see. ”

      If the days of a father with peripheral Mob connections saying his 15 year old daughter deserved the ‘block’ for hanging around the gang house are over…I’ll be on the road to optimism.

      As Gilbert says….these guys are getting old…hopefully they’ll use the last of their ‘influence’ for positive change.

    • greywarshark 9.5

      Thanks for link to Jarrod Gilbert. It is interesting to know what he is thinking after his in-depth period being in contact with gangs and knowing how they tick.

      As for Mike Yardley, here is a man who apparently free lances and writes in a punchy style, well flavoured so to speak. He does a bit of everything, likes travel, and is probably waiting for his next assignment there. In the meantime he needs to provide some lucre in his pocket and the gangs are reliably colourful and rambunctious.

      There is hope for good things from gang initiatives that have come up FTTT and I looked at Denis O’Reilly? the other day for some background. We can give more positives to him and the other leaders who want to find a place where they can be good citizens able to make their way legally whether pakeha or Maori.

      You mention Paito Fatu and if he and his Mongrel Mob cohort want to move in a positive direction, that’s good, and the good they have achieved so far should be cause for a happy smile from citizens and with a willingness to support further steps. So let us hear less of Mike Yardley popping up for a fast buck, and more from the Mongrel Mob going after the decent life which should be due to everybody in this society who cares to be a good citizen, whether they wear a suit coat or a leather jacket showing a golf club, or other, logo on it.

  10. ScottGN 10

    A provincial election has been called in Canada’s smallest province Prince Edward Island. The Greens are currently leading in the polls. Should they win they will be the country’s first Green government at provincial level. Islanders will also vote in a referendum on electoral reform asking if they want to stay with FPTP or switch to MMP.


    • cleangreen 10.1

      Shit Scott I drove around PEI (Prince Edward Island in February 1976 as a resident Kiwi in Toronto before leaving Canada.

      They are the most friendly folks I have ever met, and a lot of residents there spend all winter in the pubs there, and it reminded me of the west coast of South Island here.

      I can see why they would vote for ‘Greens’ as it is a horticulture industry and fishing mainly.

      There was a settlement at the south east side of PEI that is called New Zealand.

      I stopped at the store and we three kiwis signed the log book of visitors and there was the library of evidence that explained how it was named after a Mariner from NZ was sailing around PEI in the early 1900’s about 1910 i think from memory and he capsized his boat on a reef there and set up their life there afterwards.

  11. Anne 11

    You have to hand it to Claire Trevett. Her articles are always well put together, and often very funny. He latest offering is both:


    • arkie 11.1

      This bit:

      Former Prime Minister Helen Clark was refreshingly honest when centre right commentator Matthew Hooton took her to task on Twitter over the failure to reform the laws in her years from 1999 to 2008.


    • Ad 11.2

      Claire and Hooten have had to go back over a decade to any Labour leader responsibility for lack of gun control.

      Anytime they want to hold National’s last three terms to account would be good.

      Hooten’s shocking bias against Labour and in defence of National undercuts any rational message he may have.

  12. soddenleaf 12

    Oh i paid a million for my home, no, wait you paid two… …these peolple selling homes to each other to tap capital gain are bottom of the barrel capitalists. Creaming the top for no advantage to the economy. End the private tax on us all, tax capital gains now.

  13. arkie 13

    A fairly charitable read of the situation from the Washington Post:

    Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) took to the House floor on Monday to portray President Trump’s detractors as Nazis but ended up slurring them using an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory drawn verbatim from Adolf Hitler’s writings.

    It’s 2019, and the Führer’s magnum opus, “Mein Kampf,” has become a playbook for political combat in Congress, at the very moment that Trump is calling the Democrats “anti-Jewish. ”

    Brooks, a five-term Republican, accused Democrats and members of the media of propagating a “big lie” about collusion. The expression was coined by Hitler to describe how Jews used their “unqualified capacity for falsehood” to blame a top German military commander for the country’s losses in World War I. A lie could be so big, Hitler claimed, that it perversely defied disbelief.

    It was unclear if Brooks grasped that by leveling charges of the “big lie,” he had inverted his own analogy, making Democrats the equivalent of interwar German and Austrian Jews. He set out to compare the other side to fascists, but he was the one employing a fascist smear — one that, ironically, came to define Nazi propaganda.

  14. WeTheBleeple 14

    When it comes to foreign invaders, we must be vigilant:


    Is the ‘big red car’ a communist trojan horse?

    Does the song ‘toot toot chuga chuga’ encourage our infants to use cocaine and beer?

    And what of ‘hot potato’ – a reference to the contentious immigration debate?

    In the Herald today there is an article stating that The Wiggles have Sold Out.

    Who to?

  15. marty mars 15

    Pence? Does he even believe the moon exists wtf is going on here – just out right bullshit or a way to get the big rockets fixed for spacearmy.

    “The first woman and the next man on the Moon will both be American astronauts launched by American rockets from American soil,” he pledged. It’s an audacious pledge, given NASA’s current capabilities, and especially in light of recent setbacks to the Space Launch System (SLS), the agency’s long-delayed and over-budget heavy lift rocket. If NASA faces difficulties with that timeline, Pence said, “We need to change the organization, not the mission.” How this will affect NASA’s wide host of other goals, from astrophysics to education, remains unknown.


    • WeTheBleeple 15.1

      Yay to space science. Boo to the posturing.

      One could argue the Earth has more pressing issues, but others might argue the Earth is cooked and we need an escape capsule.

      Others might simply argue 😉

      I am a self confessed space geek. I don’t go too deep into it as all that math is well over my pay grade. But I absolutely love the imagery and commentary returned by excursions and experts.

      This stuff fires the imagination, lends wonder and discovery to jaded minds.

      To Pence it is a PR tool. A powerful PR tool for an administration direly in need of PR.


      • McFlock 15.1.1

        Yeah – funny. A few days saying “no collusion”, then when the news starts saying “no ,i>conclusive evidence of collusion” we’re back to the moon lol

        They need the space suits, first.

      • marty mars 15.1.2

        The comments under the article are funny.

      • Psycho Milt 15.1.3

        I’m picturing an earlier meeting in which the administration agreed on the need for a bold new initiative to inspire the American people, something like JFK’s announcement that the US would send astronauts to the moon, and Pence noting down “inspring new initiative – astronauts to moon.”

  16. marty mars 16

    So proud of our people, of our youth. Thank you.

    Burnside head girl Amelia MacDonald said since the attacks students were more likely to speak out against racist comments when they heard them.

    “It’s people that may not have necessarily said that two, three, weeks ago are the people that are finding the courage within themselves to be determined to stop any inappropriate comments or any racism,” she said.

    “This event of hate has shown us that we must stand up against anything that’s not right. We can’t let people get through with these messages of hate.”


  17. greywarshark 17

    Here on Earth we stand living our our potentially wonderful lives of everyday impact of new ideas, new vistas, change and building on the past, retaining, holding what we can of the good, and trying to learn from the bad. A full time job. Exploring caves with features built up over a the course of a thousand lifetimes. And the capitalist creations made from thousands of ideas and agreements and tokens have built the money system that strips Earth of its resources and denies people the ability or right to have a place to stand and live and be themselves.

    Instead capitalism has tilted the playing field where the people stand so that most of us will slide, fall off and die. Then the money-mad materialists will use the requisitioned required resources to send a man and woman to the moon for a permanent base. They know so much that when they look up to the sky they don’t see heaven, religious fantasies are for fools. They have better, scientific fantasies. It’s doing things and utilising the money system that fires the sagging dolls of capitalism as pictured in the Alex cartoons in The Telegraph, limited to their rat runs and their figures on screens.

    Caves reveal past climate change

    US wants permanent moon base in five years
    (They will go that far just to get away from those pesky Mexicans?)

    Alex – just double click for size.

  18. aj 18

    Former White House adviser Steve Bannon believes President Trump will “come off the chains” and “go full animal” on his political opponents. “He will use it to bludgeon them,”


    Bannon expects the next year in politic to be the most vitriolic since the civil war.

    Fasten your seat belts, world.

    • Sabine 18.1

      well he should know, right?

    • millsy 18.2

      I would agree with that assessment.

    • joe90 18.3

      The Billion dollar fix.

      In the days preceding the official conclusion of the Mueller Report, Brad Parscale, Trump’s campaign manager, was on a trip to Romania, where he outlined a $1 billion dollar strategy to get the U.S. President re-elected in 2020.


      • cleangreen 18.3.1

        Latest is;

        This will be exposed in documents being released soon.

        Republican Senior Lindsey Graham press release; He claims; –

        George Soros Billionaire bankrolled a campaign to get a phony Russian collusion case against Donald Trump from Russia/Ukraine contacts under Hillary Clinton before his election as an ‘insurance policy’ should he win that election.

        The case began when “A secretive Washington firm that commissioned the dubious intelligence dossier on Donald Trump is stonewalling congressional investigators trying to learn more about its connections to the Democratic Party.”

        “The Senate Judiciary Committee is also investigating whether the FBI has wrongly relied on the anti-Trump dossier and its author, Christopher Steele — the old spy who was hired by Fusion GPS to build a Russia file on Trump — to aid its ongoing espionage investigation into the Trump campaign and its possible ties to Moscow.”

        We know this was fake information now of Russian Collusion between Trump debunked by special Council Mueller.


  19. Jenny - How to get there? 20

    ‘From the cradle to the grave’

    The Welfare State still lives

    We have Corporate Welfare, where the government spends $1.7 billion protecting investors in the collapsed South Canterbury Finance, and another $1.48 billion bailing out AMI insurance when they wouldn’t pay out their insurance claims after the Christchurch Earthquake.

    Now the Government say they will cover the losses of Spec Builders.


    Good to know spec builders are being looked after,

    Meanwhile, as spec builders get paid for houses left standing empty, for lack of buyers.


  20. Eco Maori 21

    Kia ora Newshub It’s good that Facebook has started to ban the hate group from their site.
    Its is awesome that the joint year of tourism with China and Aotearoa is underway Kelvin.
    I seen the stats on the Sips tamariki being abuse more mess our humane Government has to clean up.
    NO comment on brexit. The Tauranga Council need to get its – – – – they created the environment for the poor homeless people I drove through greeaton quite a lot I never seen that many homeless that shop owner looks like he has a personal problem with poor people – – – – – – – -. It gives me hope that someone is challenging this law in the courts.
    With the elite school issues in America at the minute that is how the systems work in America and around the world?????????.
    Thunder birds car in Britain Lloyd it looks like a classic and its getting a lot of interest from potential buyers Ka pai. Ka kite ano

  21. Eco Maori 22

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News
    Its looks like the government needs to do some more research on classification of manuka honey everyone knows the best Manuka Honey comes from the place where it was first discovered and has the highest % of the good stuff in it Te tairawhiti. Sea Lords has to clean up its act.
    Its cool to see te tai tokerou kapa haka is on the up ka kite ano P.S I see

  22. Eco Maori 23

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  23. Eco Maori 24

    Kia ora R&R With the emrgenc of super bugs part of the problem is drug companies pushing the sale of antibiotics hence the bugs mutanta and become rasistance to drugs. That is another reason money it’s not profitable for the company’s to develop the drugs so government has to step up and make sure the drugs are being research and develop.
    That is the reason why we need to protect Tane Mahuta Wild life because one of the plants /animals that are going EXTINCT could hold the cure for humam AILMENTs.
    We best learn fast to save these species from extinction if not that could be the down fall of humans.
    We also should research old Maori medicines to. I agree with him tangata go to the DOCTOR. Live longer to guide OUR Mokopuna up there ladders of Life. Ka kite ano

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