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Open mike 28/05/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 28th, 2021 - 89 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

89 comments on “Open mike 28/05/2021 ”

  1. Jimmy 1

    Next we will be arranging stretch limos to bring criminals in to justice.

    Arthur Taylor brokers peaceful rearrest of fugitive using helicopter | Stuff.co.nz

    • Noel 1.1

      Cheap compared to our legal costs reimbursement during his incarceration. $15000 for one case he took.

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      Did you read it . The crime paid for the chopper, he saved us a fortune scrambling allover otago looking for him

  2. Incognito 2

    It can be a fine line between central coordination and authoritarian bureaucratic control. Done right, it can boost local grassroots initiatives and action and make them more efficient and effective. Done wrong, it can lead to (more) delays, (more) money waste, and unnecessarily antagonise and even kill off participation at ground level [no pun]. It’ll be interesting to see how bureaucratic boffins and Ministry mandarins (mainly in Wellington) deal with this delicate job.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/443534/fears-new-kauri-dieback-funding-will-be-chewed-up-by-bureaucracy

  3. Jimmy 3

    Good on Mike King for calling out the lack of action by Labour on mental health. I do think he is wrong with the following paragraph though:

    "I know none of this is your fault prime minister"

    The buck stops at the top and she has the power to change things.

    Mike King to return his membership of the New Zealand Order of Merit | Stuff.co.nz

    • Muttonbird 3.1

      I accept that Mike King works tirelessly on this but is his approach the right one.

      Is it right to fight for mental health improvements with belligerence?

    • Robert Guyton 3.2

      Mike King, expert in his field is wrong in his gracious view of the prime minister, but the accusatory Jimmy is right?

      Strange days.

      • Pete 3.2.1

        King might be right about everything he says. So are those who have problems with Pharmac. And those who are upset with provisions for children with disabilities. And those who are very critical about housing people in motels or those scathing about housing in general. And those in full attack about child poverty.

        Since the buck stops at the top Ardern should resign as well as all ministers for all portfolios involving those areas.

        Where to next from there? A new Prime Minister and a new cabinet will re-prioritise and all the money for all those people who are making pleas about underfunding will be happy?

        Then a cacophony will start from those who've been prioritised off the list about shortfalls, things being dire and the politicians in power being ineffective. Following that will come the inevitable, "the buck stops at the top, the PM (whoever that is) should resign."

    • Noel 3.3

      Saving the carbon footprint by the on call specialist operating from home instead of travelling to the hospital I guess just doesn't cut it with a patient who has reached their treatment cap just when they need it.

  4. Adrian 4

    In reply to Incognito. This is the point I was making yesterday about the proliferation of “ unproductive “ jobs, where so called jobs are created that are really a handbrake on productivity. A computer has never planted a tree, but a shit-load more money will have been spent on spreadsheets and planning documents and pretty brochures and pre-planting pissups and coffee clutches so that in the end there is nothing left to do the actual mahi.But look look, we created all these jobs. Bullshit, they are unproductive leeching vampire entities which leave nothing left for the grafter with a shovel.

    • McFlock 4.1

      A lot of tree planters would still be in lockdown without computers crunching genomes, helping design vaccines, managing the production and distribution of the vaccines, and monitoring the efficacy and safety of those vaccines.

  5. Incognito 5

    An excellent piece on what we know about a social unemployment insurance scheme.

    Answer: very little, i.e. next to nothing.

    Fortunately, some have put on their thinking hats and are asking good questions. The general public has to do the same, become informed, and actively engage with and participate in the “wider public consultation later in 2021”. Alternatively, people can sit back, criticise from their comfy musty armchairs and rant from their crusty keyboards; the usual throwing out old clichés, peppering with cheesy slogans, and lashing lazy labels accusing and laying blame with Government and one’s preferred stakeholder(s) AKA BAU.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/max-harris-some-questions-about-that-redundancy-insurance-scheme

    • Pat 5.1

      A good piece (as opposed to Mr Dunne's conflation with health) that notes…

      "There is a need for more support for workers in transition. But as Vanessa Cole highlights, increasing core benefits and restructuring the welfare system is the more obvious answer to this problem – which does not require the design of a new scheme and administration."

      Until such time as the benefit (and to whom) such a scheme bestows then it should be treated with the disdain it deserves.

      • Incognito 5.1.1

        I skipped Dunne’s piece; life is too short.

        • Phillip ure 5.1.1.1

          as an example of the stopped clock being occaisonally right..this one stands..

          dunne makes sense on this one..

          why set up a whole new beaurocracy/complicated system..to foster a two-teir system of support..

          when the same outcome can be achieved..without the inevitable evils/inequities of a two-teir system..by just raising the levels of support offered by the current welfare system..?

          (this is the first time i have ever supported anything dunne has said..)

          • Incognito 5.1.1.1.1

            Noted, thanks.

            I don’t choose to read stuff just because they are ‘right’ about something; there’s plenty of stuff that’s ‘right’ about something.

            Of course, Dunne makes sense; he used to be known as ‘Mr common sense’ and he was apparently quite happy and proud of that nickname.

            None of what you mentioned tempted me to read Dunne’s piece though.

      • Treetop 5.1.2

        Targeted support by Winz could be given to a worker in transition when it comes to mortgage repayments.

        No one wants to see more people straining the rental market or living in a motel.

        • Pat 5.1.2.1

          As per covid response.

          As far as I can see the main beneficiaries of this scheme are the finance sector….more (publicly provided) revenue to support the markets and a further underwriting of the over exposed residential mortgage books…..and all for a mere (up to) 2% of GDP.

          • Treetop 5.1.2.1.1

            In Covid times a person is doing well to eat, be housed, have access to health care, be able to find work, (even if it is a fill in job). Swapping the office for an out door job could benefit mental health.

            The situation could be a hell of a lot worse, bodies piling up, minimal access to health care for non Covid related issues, soup kitchens, tent city.

            The thing about Covid is that being wealthly does not exclude a person from having their health compromised by Covid.

            • Pat 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Think we are at cross purposes….the government dosnt need an ACC modelled unemployment insurance scheme because it can respond as needed as they have during covid should the need arise.

              • greywarshark

                Just another layer of sifting and grinding bureaucracy, unneeded and expensive and not cost-efficient, you think Pat?

                • Pat

                  More than that…its objective is not to benefit working NZers at risk of unemployment

                  • greywarshark

                    edit
                    That figures. Everything that is put forward these days is likely to have another agenda. Got to put them all through the Devious Delusion microscope I think – looking for the ‘germs’ of unhealthy ideas (for ordinary people).

              • Sabine

                Actually the country needs an employment benefit that is paid out due to contributions paid in while working, rather then being the 'generous' benefit being based on a partners income and thus nothing is paid out in many cases, it is today.

                And if you actually see on your pay slip the amount of dollars you contribute to the system every week, you might be more inclined to see it as an earned benefit and a right, rather then a generous hand out by a government – any government – that is too little to live on and too much to die of. Which is what we have now.

                Having an unemployment benefit that you get (YOU GET!) wen unemployed and knowing what that amount will be as it is based on your past wage will actually help you navigate the time with no income better then that poverty trap that NZ unemployment and benefit is.

                • Pat

                  Targeted taxes?

                  There are numerous ways you can structure unemployment assistance but I would suggest that any system needs to be complete…multiple systems and/or inequitable systems are not a desirable position.

                  The problem with any insurance type scheme, be it state run (such as you describe) or private is the time limitation and contestability, however as I have indicated I dont think the current proposal is designed to address unemployment per se in any case.

        • Noel 5.1.2.2

          Told my boys when the entered the work force when things get tight just make sure the mortgage repayment insurance and income protection is kept up to date.

    • Foreign Waka 5.2

      It does look like that this is basically a state insurance scheme requiring another layer of tax to be introduced. Maybe like the Acc levy, Social Insurance levy is being deducted after (or before?) the general tax (bracket by income). Kiwi saver is for retirement and thus the social welfare portfolio is basically then completely separated. The one thing that needs to be done with such a move is to anchor this legally that it cant be privatized. Buyer be aware.

      • Treetop 5.2.1

        EQC was an insurance rort and it was full of anomalies and some people went through years of arguments with their insurer about the fine print and rebuild/dodgey repair.

        • Foreign Waka 5.2.1.1

          Yes, it is disgraceful what unfolded in Christchurch. Mr. Brownlee has a lot to answer for the grief that people had to endure. Admittingly, some were under insured but still, those botch up jobs and forced homelessness was heart breaking to watch. I belief some are still at it. I always felt that Mr. Brownlee worked for the Insurer despite the taxpayer footing his wage bill. He was responsible of getting Fletcher, the only building company in NZ????? sign up and subcontract to cowboy operators. They should be liable and yet again, nothing happens. Corrupt to the core.

  6. Muttonbird 6

    Standby for a flood of stories like this:

    Covid-19: Kiwi stuck in Melbourne can't get home to see terminally ill mum

    Sad for that man to not be able to get an MIQ spot, but this sort of disruption was explained before the travel bubble opened. One of which is clearly that MIQ spots are not held in reserve for potential lockdowns.

    People were told in no uncertain terms that in the event of a level change either side of the Tasman, you would be inconvenienced. The NZ government spent months of difficult negotiations working on exactly this sort of thing.

    There are clear risks involved with trans-Tasman travel.

    Rules change, deal with it.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/125267271/covid19-kiwi-stuck-in-melbourne-cant-get-home-to-see-terminally-ill-mum

    • alwyn 6.1

      I would like to see a story with a headline that says Morrison has cancelled his trip to New Zealand.

      Why should he be allowed in without going through quarantine just to give a couple of poseurs a chance to pretend they have Covid 19 on the run while wining and dining at our expense in Queenstown?

      If they want to talk about her wedding plans do it via Skype. He can come and visit after New Zealand has, if ever, got people at serious risk from Covid 19 vaccinated.

      • Red Blooded One 6.1.1

        I believe Alwyn, that Morrison is flying in from Canberra (ACT), like anyone coming from anywhere else in Australia other than from (VIC).

        Are you suggesting that there shouldn't be a bubble at all? or are you a little confused about Geography?

        I'll treat your snide and petty comments of weddings with the silence and contempt it deserves.

        Had my first Vaccination, waiting for my second, woohoo, thank you NZ for keeping us safe.

        • alwyn 6.1.1.1

          I presume you are not aware that Morrison was in Melbourne on 20 May? If you were you probably wouldn't make such a silly remark. I'll treat your ignorance with the contempt it deserves.

          Every person now in New Zealand who was there on that day are being told to self-isolate. Wouldn't it be easier for him just not to come.

          Had a first vaccination have you? Where do you live? I have been totally unable to find out when I can expect anything to happen. The DHB tell me that they have no idea and my Doctor hasn't got any news either. I guess you are just lucky, or you know people who know people.

          • Red Blooded One 6.1.1.1.1

            And what you neglected to tell us with your question was actually he may not be allowed in, so it was a silly question to start with.

            I live in Northland so yeah I guess I'm lucky. I don't know people anymore than I'm sure you do. I just patiently waited until I heard Chris Hipkins give advice that anyone who can get it should and as the local Vaccination Centre welcomed me with open arms (metaphorically) I was and am very grateful to get the first jab.

            Patience is a virtue my dear friend. Until you get your turn, keep scanning furiously wherever you go (as I'm sure you are) and stay safe.

            • alwyn 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Why is it so hard to simply admit that you were not aware of something? You simply have to say so and then take note of the new information.

              You now say " he may not be allowed in, so it was a silly question". The operative word is "may". Were he not to be allowed in I would be quite happy, in exactly the same way as if he chose not to come. We don't know whether that is going to happen though, do we? So it is not a silly question.

              In practice of course we wouldn't ever hear that we weren't going to let him. He would be told but that would be kept very, very quiet. Then we would have a face-saving "I think it best that I do not travel. Although the risk is negligible blah blah blah I have chosen not to make the trip"

          • McFlock 6.1.1.1.2

            Quarantine doesn't apply to ACT.

            The order simply says "isolate or quarantine". Then get tested. Then isolate as advised by a medical officer of health.

            So as a one-off, if he returns a negative test and doesn't go hugging crowds, they might say a negative test is fine.

            Maybe he'll delay until next week. Maybe not. But inter-government business is backing up.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.2

        I would like to see a story with a headline that says Morrison has cancelled his trip to New Zealand.

        Agreed alwyn, but how likely is it that Morrison will set a good example at this time?

        Scott Morrison could be in trouble if he comes to NZ as planned – Jennifer Curtin

        Government officials are scrambling to work out how the Australian Prime Minister can visit New Zealand this weekend without having to go into isolation.

        Scott Morrison is scheduled to arrive in New Zealand this Sunday, for a much anticipated two-day visit.

        However, his meeting comes as Melbourne is in lockdown.

        A public health order issued yesterday requires anybody in New Zealand who has been in the Greater Melbourne area since May 20, to self-isolate until they returned a negative Covid-19 test.

        Morrison was in Pakenham, a suburb of Melbourne, for an interview on 20 May.

        University of Auckland Professor of Politics Jennifer Curtin says coming here could be a bad look for Australian voters.

        • alwyn 6.1.2.1

          Actually I think it will be a much worse look for the New Zealand Prime Minister.

          What effect do you think it will have if there is a special ruling, just for Morrison, that says he doesn't have to isolate because he's special? That ruling will, of course, have to be given by the New Zealand Government. And that of course he can be trusted not to have Covid 19. Yeah sure.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1.2.1.1

            Theres always exemptions for quarantine free travel ( this was only an isolation situation), diplomats , foreign heads of state , breavement and so on.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1.2.1.1.1

              Part of the actual wording in the Melbourne restrictions issued 3 days ago

              This direction applies to the following people:

              Any person who attended the locations of interest in Melbourne, Australia at the times and dates (Australia Eastern Standard time), as set out in Schedule 1.

              So its for those who attended the 'locations of interest' in Melbourne or places that are known to be visited by positive covid people. Mossrison was in Packenham will is SE edge of the urban area

              Not the first time 2 bit professors of politics dont do their research

              • alwyn

                I'm afraid you really should have done a little bit more research.

                You are looking at the wrong part of the order. On 27 May the notification was extended to anyone who had been in Greater Melbourne. It was no longer limited to a specified set of locations.

                You aren't going to claim that Morrison wasn't in Greater Melbourne are you? Really, can't you read the things you link to properly?

                Not the first time I suppose.
                The one you quote was at 9.00 am
                The extension was just below it at 4.00 pm

                • Incognito

                  This direction applies to any person who was in Greater Melbourne as described in Schedule 1 between 20 May 2021 and 25 May 2021.

                  • alwyn

                    That was the bit. Did you do this by typing it in, or by cut and paste? I couldn't do it by the cut and paste. I don't see why but it wouldn't work for me. I thought it might be because it was a pdf but I didn't have time just then to look further.

                    Being lazy, and out of time, I just typed in the info to identify where to look.

                    • Incognito

                      You may want to have a look at Schedule 1.

                    • McFlock

                      shit, I keep forgetting: Always read the fine print when tory concern trolls are concerned.

                      I mean, Morrison might have transited through a restricted suburb to get there, but if he was in a car and didn't stop he should probably get a pass lol

                    • Incognito []

                      I’m not familiar with Melbourne; is Pakenham part of Greater Melbourne as listed in Schedule 1?

                    • Pat

                      Fraid so…Cardinia

                    • Incognito []

                      Ta

                    • Pat

                      Just been widened to the whole state…but Morrison and co are still coming. Pre tested.

                    • McFlock

                      Ah.

                      Okey dokey. So the "no quarantine" still applies. Lucky that.

                    • alwyn

                      @incognito 4.34 pm

                      Here is a rough map of Greater Melbourne.It has an area of about 10,000 sq km, ie it is enormous. The population is around 4.5 million

                      https://www.travelvictoria.com.au/victoria/metropolitancouncils/

                      As Pat says it is in Cardinia, number 5 on the map. Within that it is about a third of the way across from the Western Boundary and about midway between the Northern and Southern Boundaries.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Scott Morrison should be quarantining for 14 days if he wants to come here and benefit from the glow of Jacinda Ardern.

                      Or not come at all.

                    • McFlock

                      Scott Morrison should be quarantining for 14 days if he wants to come here and benefit from the glow of Jacinda Ardern.

                      Well, he's been vaccinated. He'll be tested regardless of whether he comes. All his contacts will be traced, if only for security purposes, so if he tests positive in the next week the response can be highly targeted. If he caught it in a quick visit to an area of 4 million that is still in the low double figures for active cases.

                      If he's just coming for a rugby match and photo op with no additional diplomatic discussions, fair call, he can wait a couple of weeks.

                      But there are bilateral conversations coming to a head (deportees and refugees) and of course the geopolitical problems du jour, and sometimes zoom isn't the best for that sort of thing. Huawei hardware to use a US company’s platform, for a start 🙂

            • mpledger 6.1.2.1.1.2

              Diplomats etc have to quarantine – they just quarantine at a separate facility from NZers (IIRC). Bereavement is not an exception.

              • ghostwhowalksnz

                Diplomats dont…. some have voluntarily 'isolated at home'

                List of exceptions here, Diplomats specifically ruled out due to Vienna convention

                'The diplomatic exception, which allows re-entry to those who normally live here, is being expanded to include diplomats taking up new posts in New Zealand.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.2.1.2

            Actually I think it will be a much worse look for the New Zealand Prime Minister.

            'Think', alwyn, or hope? Kia kaha – keep on thinking/hoping laugh

      • Pete 6.1.3

        You're probably like me – you can think of 501 reasons he shouldn't come there.

      • Gabby 6.1.4

        I'd prefer to see a story that NZ has cancelled his trip.

    • Treetop 6.2

      7 days may turn into another 7 days, have people thought about that?

  7. greywarshark 7

    An interesting little story about history for a break from politics today.

    https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/us-canada-island-dispute

  8. weka 8

    This more than anything tells me that the no debate part of the trans rights movements is illiberal. If you can’t express solidarity with detrans people, or you seek to minimise or marginalise them and their experiences, I’m going to assume no ability for class analysis. Which is a neoliberal position.

    • bwaghorn 8.1

      Detransitioners???

      • weka 8.1.1

        People who medically and/or surgically transitioned to the opposite of their biological sex, and then later reversed that to the extent they are able (some transition tech is permanent). The trans activist response has often been to deny they exists, to minimise, to tell them to shut up as talking about detrans harms trans people and so on.

        many detrans people are lesbians, who transitioned originally due to intense pressure in society that tells young women being female is terrible and wrong. It’s easier to transition to be a trans man than to be out as a lesbian. Much of the gender critical debate is in response to the over medicalisation of gender dysphoria leading to transition that is later regretted. There’s just been a high profile judicial review in the UK that’s ruled that children and teens cannot give consent to some treatments. This case was taken by a young detrans woman.

        • solkta 8.1.1.1

          It’s easier to transition to be a trans man than to be out as a lesbian.

          I really don't believe that.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1.1.1

            It might be helpful to understand the (origins of) views of the increasing number of young females who see transitioning as the preferred option. My concern over this trend is not free from personal bias.

            A selection of relevant links (playing both 'sides'):

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

            U.S. Sex Reassignment Surgery Market Size, Share & Trends Analysis Report By Gender Transition (Male To Female, Female To Male), And Segment Forecasts, 2020 – 2027

            Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Prevalence [March 2021]
            Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

            https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/most-gender-dysphoria-established-by-age-7-study-finds/

          • weka 8.1.1.1.2

            "I really don't believe that."

            Maybe try listening to detransition lesbians then.

            • arkie 8.1.1.1.2.1

              Like Ky Scheevers?

              During my time as a detrans woman, I said and did many things that I now see as harmful and transphobic. At the time, I thought I was acting in accordance with feminism and working in the best interest of transmasculine people. In my mind I was trying to help people, I would never have acted as I did if I thought I was doing harm. Nonetheless, my motivations do not cancel out the harm of my actions, nor do they excuse them.

              https://kyschevers.medium.com/transphobia-in-the-detrans-womens-community-447d68247dcf

              • weka

                Please explain how their experience relates to the pressure on young women to not be female or lesbian.

                • arkie

                  Schevers identif[ied] as male when she entered college, starting testosterone therapy soon after her mother’s death by suicide, and going off testosterone while still identifying as genderqueer. [She] gav[e] up her genderqueer identity and embrac[ed] the idea that not only her gender dysphoria but all gender dysphoria was false and caused by internalized sexism combined with trauma—an idea that she then did much to advance and proliferate online.

                  Today, however, Schevers has recanted this view.

                  https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/02/detransition-movement-star-ex-gay-explained.html

                  • weka

                    Not sure what your point is tbh. Did you read the Twitter thread? No one here has said all gender dysphoria is false and it’s not a common option among the detrans people I follow.

                    the example you quote lends to the argument of social culture pressures harming lots of different people.

              • solkta

                He seems to be saying that for him it was the opposite:

                For seven years I lived as a detransitioned woman. I believed that I had transitioned as a way to cope with trauma and internalized sexism, that I had been trying to escape the stigma of being a butch lesbian in a homophobic society. I thought I had to reclaim womanhood in order to heal and find wholeness. I was part of a larger community of detransitioned women and re-identified women, a community heavily influenced by radical feminist and lesbian separatist theory and culture. Together we worked to support each other in healing from “female disidentification” and reconnecting with being women. Many of us shared our stories online, through blogs, videos and other media.

                Now I see my detransition as a kind of anti-trans conversion therapy, grounded in transphobic radical feminist ideology. Like all forms of conversion therapy, it was unsuccessful and deeply damaging. I have indeed been hurt by trauma and living in a sexist, homophobic society but coming to believe that I needed to give up being trans in order to heal those wounds only caused further damage. I can see now that I wasted years of my life trying to fix a part of myself that was never broken and suffering needlessly in the process. Even worse, I fear that I’ve mislead other people into engaging in similar self-destructive practices. I presented myself as a detransition success story but the truth is that detransitioning did not work for me and was an act of self-denial and rejection.

                https://aninjusticemag.com/detransition-as-conversion-therapy-a-survivor-speaks-out-7abd4a9782fa

        • LWilliams 8.1.1.2

          Worth a watch for a perspective on ROGD and detransition.

  9. Foreign Waka 10

    Are banks in difficulties and cannot pay out when needed?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tsb-bank-freezes-tauranga-pensioners-accounts-to-protect-funds/CLUKDBGEBKRD4R65GY552SF7KA/

    Last week it was Westpac. Is there a need to look closer?

    Banking Ombudsman (women) the team was working closely with the parties to find a resolution before deciding whether to commence a formal investigation. hahahahahahaha… yeah right, what its Tui time again?

  10. georgecom 11

    This may be a somewhat naive or clumsy perspective on middle east politics. However I thought maybe Joe Biden should approach the various leaders tied in to the Israel-Palestine issue as basically being assholes. See them as assholes and treat them as assholes and sort things out that way.

    See Netanyahu and others in his administration as a pack of assholes. Tell them to stop shelling Palestine, stop the settlement of Palestinian lands, sort out a deal with Jerusalem and keep their noses out of Iranian affairs. If they act like assholes again and start shelling Gaza then they can kiss good bye to billions of dollars on US military aid, the aid stops if they continue acting like assholes.

    See Hamas leaders as a pack of assholes. Tell them to stop sending rockets into Israel and confirm Israels right to exist without threat of violence. if they want things to get better for the Palestinian people stop acting like assholes.

    See the Iranian leaders as a pack of assholes. tell them to keep their noses out of Israel affair and confirm Israel right to exist without threat of violence. if they want sanctions lifted then stop building nuclear bombs, sign a deal on that and enjoy some better times. if not, continue to act like a pack of assholes.

    • Nic the NZer 11.1

      Its already illegal for the US to send AID to a place where its used for attacks on a civilian population. Its also widely understood Israel would back off from the worst attacks were it not receiving this AID.

      • georgecom 11.1.1

        so maybe the US needs to grow some and treat Netanyahu like an asshole and cut the military aid. he of course would moan and complain about it but things might chance quite quickly. essentially understand no one is "right" or "wrong". they are all wrong and acting like pricks. continue being pricks and things continue as they are. Act like decent human beings and maybe things have a chance. Yes I realise that is a very simplistic view, I am just sick of them acting like pricks and trying to justify their actions as being righteous or some moral cause. Forget being pro Palestine or pro Israel or anti Israel etc. Take the view that both and all are run by pricks and treat them accordingly. continue being pricks and things continue as they are. Act like decent human beings and maybe things have a chance.

        • Ad 11.1.1.1

          The quick answer to your proposal is that all current rulers in the Middle East are assholes, and, being assholes, none of them can be trusted not to attack the other. So that's not a very helpful approach to diplomacy.

          Fair enough you are sick of them; me too.

          I'd much rather listen to palaeolithic southern Turkish archaeology.

          • georgecom 11.1.1.1.1

            no probably not a helpful approach to diplomacy and probably said with a degree of hyperbole on my part. perhaps what prompted my outburst, at least in part, was the seeming lack of condemnation from Biden of Netanyahus actions. Personally I do not have any 'soft spot' for Israel. Nor for Palestine for that matter however. Neither have a monopoly on being right nor wrong, having a 'moral' or 'just' cause. Probably about time Netanyahu went off to jail for corruption and a new Israeli PM took over.

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