Open mike 29/01/2024

90 comments on “Open mike 29/01/2024 ”

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1. Gristle 1

   29 January 2024 at 6:55 am

   Appalled, I tell you, appalled.

   Seymour is a dangerous person seeking to sacrifice NZ polity on an alter of a stuffed ideology and hero worship of Ruth Richardson His lost decades bemoan the fact that there is still public education, a public health system, ACC, public roads, state ownership of key assets in energy and transport.

   I think that he will not be happy unless he becomes NZ version of Pol Pot: an ideolgue driving insane extremism.
2. Sanctuary 2

   29 January 2024 at 8:19 am

   https://nationalinterest.org/feature/new-lithium-discoveries-can-secure-america%E2%80%99s-clean-energy-future-208808

   California now has lithium valley.
   • Ad 2.1

     29 January 2024 at 9:02 am

     That and much more efficient fracking has turned the US into a net energy exporter for some time. Doesn't make it energy independent, just much less vulnerable to external pressure.

     https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/imports-and-exports.php

     Also as of Friday President Biden has paused all the new LNG investment, which is a spectacular win for environmentalists that I am sure will play into the campaign.

     https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/biden-pauses-approval-new-lng-export-projects-win-climate-activists-2024-01-26/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20Jan%2026%20(Reuters),5%20election.

     Continues to make me wonder at how quickly and completely we have drained out sovereign energy independence.
   • Dennis Frank 2.2

     29 January 2024 at 9:17 am

     Oz consternation: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-26/examining-the-drastic-downturn-in-nickel-and-lithium-prices/103388902

     Both Mr Micheal and Ms King said all proposals — from royalty relief to sweeping royalty reforms — were on the table to support the industries.

     Capitalists lining up, cap in hand, palm outstretched for govt handout… No market failure tho, just the usual boom/bust cycle. Neolib as drunken sailor.

     in the past year the price of lithium has dropped by more than 80 per cent. Meanwhile, nickel is down more than 40 per cent.

     Everyone hold hands & chant normalcy shall prevail in unison & everything will be alright again.
   • Visubversa 2.3

     29 January 2024 at 9:17 am

     Except it requires massive amounts of water for its extraction and processing. Water that they do not have unless it is diverted from farming or other vital uses. The American Public Broadcasting Service had a good discussion on this a couple of days ago,
3. ianmac 3

   29 January 2024 at 8:21 am

   A funny story from Newsroom by Margaret Mills. Sounds to be true but???

   One morning during the weekend the line for coffee was out on the street and not very fast moving. Part way down the line stood our local bald-headed politician (the same one who has a luxury bach on our beach and drove his boat through a rahui because it wasn’t marked) with his bouncer. The Egg goes everywhere with him.

   They were getting a tad impatient.

   After a bit of muttering The Egg called out, “Would you serve us next, please?”

   The barista is rumoured to be Argentinian. He answered, “Listen, Mate, I don’t know who you think you are, but you get served in line, just like everybody else.”

   The room was full, everyone else knew who he was, a roar of laughter went up and within seconds there was a phone in every hand.

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/29/an-incident-in-onetangi/
   • Molly 3.1

     29 January 2024 at 8:26 am

     How do you know if a rahui is in place if it isn't marked?
     • weka 3.1.1

       29 January 2024 at 10:16 am

       connection to place and people.
       • Molly 3.1.1.1

         29 January 2024 at 10:30 am

         A notice is often erected for rahui, given that your suggested method is not an effective one in terms of any message that needs to be universally shared.
         • weka 3.1.1.1.1

           29 January 2024 at 12:53 pm

           often solutions need multiple elements in place. If we consider that rahui come from cultures with an oral tradition, then connection to place and people is pretty core.

           If I owned a crib on Waiheke, I'd be connecting into the local community in whatever ways were available. Community wellbeing comes from engagement and connection, not just a noticeboard committee.
           • Molly 3.1.1.1.1.1

             29 January 2024 at 12:58 pm

             That makes criticism of the ignorance of a rahui a flawed one. If you are going to criticise people for not respecting a rahui when notifications are in place, then do so. But to criticise someone when none are is petty-mindedness.

             Don't employ a step up from a psychic network, to inadequately achieve wider knowledge of a rahui when it is in place.
             • weka …

               29 January 2024 at 1:01 pm

               What makes you think there were no notifications in place? The piece says it wasn't marked. I took that to mean on site.

               If you think how communities function in addition to physical signs is a step up from a psychic network, I probably can't help you.
               • Molly …

                 29 January 2024 at 1:05 pm

                 If you can't see that criticising someone for not having knowledge of a temporary rahui in place, when the location is unmarked then I can't help you.

                 Either accept the limitations of a verbal communication on a network of linked people (not all) in a community, or do something that will reach all members in that community – linked or not.
                 • weka …

                   29 January 2024 at 1:10 pm

                   "Either accept the limitations of a verbal communication on a network of linked people (not all) in a community, or do something that will reach all members in that community – linked or not."

                   How to communicate something important in a community (a non-exhaustive list):

                   • signs
                   • MSM messaging
                   • SM messaging
                   • emailing local groups
                   • talking at meetings/hui

                   Now, please explain how the location could be marked so that everyone knew where it was. Because I don't think that is possible.
                   • Molly …

                     29 January 2024 at 1:12 pm

                     I've seen notice at local beaches at boat ramps and on the main waterfront.

                     This is not unusual.

                     And the issue is criticising someone – when the location is unmarked. There is not enough detail provided by the anecdote to assume anything else.
                   • weka []

                     29 January 2024 at 1:26 pm

                     “I’ve seen notice at local beaches at boat ramps and on the main waterfront.

                     This is not unusual.”

                     Of course. And it’s not going to reach everyone eg someone who comes to the area by sea. Which is why I said community wellbeig (eg a rahui) requires engagement from people as well as public notifications.

                     “And the issue is criticising someone – when the location is unmarked. There is not enough detail provided by the anecdote to assume anything else.”

                     I think there wasn’t enough detail in the anecdote to assume anything at all other than that the writer was signalling something pointed about Luxon and that community.
                 • Descendant Of Smith …

                   29 January 2024 at 8:05 pm

                   FFS I knew the rahui was in place and I don't even live there. It was in the mainstream media quite a few times. Anyone who lives in NZ should know that when certain things happen that rahui might be in place.

                   This goes from someone drowning, to polluted shellfish, to depleted fishing stocks or in this case invasive weeds.

                   How do you know? – you make the effort to find out. It is a pretty normal check for many people. Finding out is about showing respect for the area you are going to, about acknowledging that you are a visitor – you need to have some emotional intelligence to check and not just barge in as if you own the place.

                   Interestingly there was a feature on fishing on the news tonight about fishing and that different areas have different fishing rules and requirements and that you need to check there before sticking your boat in the water. You can be fined significantly for getting it wrong doing so – though educating is preferred.

                   If ignorance is no excuse for fishing rules then ignorance is no excuse for rahui either. Stop making excuses for him and his party.

                   Aboriginal tradition in Oz puts it quite nicely.

                   "Protocols for welcoming visitors to Country have always been a part of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures. Boundaries were clear, and crossing into another group’s Country required a request for permission to enter.

                   When permission was granted the hosting group would welcome the visitors, offering them safe passage and protection of their spiritual being during the journey. Visitors had to respect the protocols and rules of the land owner group while on their Country. "

                   It is a courtesy. No different than when on the odd occasion non-religious me has to go into a church. I always make some effort to understand the particular rules of that church – no different to visiting a marae either – what are the local protocols and customs.
             • weka …

               29 January 2024 at 1:08 pm

               the rahui was across some bays and coastal areas, pretty hard to put signs up everywhere and at sea. This is what I mean about solutions coming from multiple elements. You put signs at the boat ramps, do media and social media work, use local groups and so on. Last time there was a rahui in my area, I learned about it from FB.

               https://waihekegulfnews.co.nz/rahui-placed-as-caulerpa-takes-hold/

               https://waihekegulfnews.co.nz/caulerpa-in-crosshairs-for-new-pm-after-rahui-gaffe/

               Whatever bee you have in your bonnet about criticism of Luxon, my points still stand. Even if there had been signs at the boat ramps, moorings etc, that still isn't going to inform everyone. There is an onus on people to engage as well. Pretty basic community comms, and I would expect Luxon to pay someone to keep him up to date, even just for the real politik and competency side of it.
               • Molly …

                 29 January 2024 at 1:15 pm

                 Yeah. I guess any opportunity to criticise Luxon needs to be taken if that is where you want to go.

                 I would assume that other locals may have made the same transgression through ignorance, and wouldn't criticise them either.
                 • weka …

                   29 January 2024 at 1:28 pm

                   “Yeah. I guess any opportunity to criticise Luxon needs to be taken if that is where you want to go.”

                   Or the opportunity to criticise people for criticising Luxon 😉

                   “I would assume that other locals may have made the same transgression through ignorance, and wouldn’t criticise them either.”

                   Myself, I hold leaders to a higher standard than the general public. And people with greater resources. Like I said, if he’s not going to engage himself, he can just pay someone to do that for him
                   • Molly …

                     29 January 2024 at 1:35 pm

                     A higher standard? In terms of not knowing about a temporary (supposedly unmarked location) rahui?

                     What standard is that exactly?
                   • weka []

                     29 January 2024 at 1:48 pm

                     maybe try reading and understanding my comments and then you might get it, because I already covered this multiple times:

                     COMMUNITY WELLBEING NECESSITATES ENGAGEMENT BY PEOPLE AS WELL AS NOTIFICATION.

                     So yeah, I would expect the PM of NZ to make a considerable effort to understand what is happening in the community where he has a holiday home. As opposed to say a visitor from outside the area, or someone who is working three jobs and trying to look after their kids and just wanted to get out on the beach/water but wasn’t paying attention.
                   • Molly …

                     29 January 2024 at 4:05 pm

                     @weka I understand your comments, I am simply disagreeing with them.

                     While you consider this particular skill in this particular case a priority for our PM – I don't.

                     The anecdote related an example of arrogant behaviour, that did not need further window dressing by an irrelevance. You consider it relevant, because of your idea of higher standards for community wellbeing. Mine differs.
                   • weka []

                     29 January 2024 at 4:55 pm

                     the problem here for me is that you don’t state disagreement, you just ignore my input and then continue to talk with me as if I hadn’t said those things.

                     In this case, if you disagree that community wellbeing needs people to actively participate, or that PMs should be held to a higher standard, then please say that up front and I won’t keep repeating myself.
     • Muttonbird 3.1.2

       29 January 2024 at 11:46 am

       “How do you know if a rahui is in place if it isn't marked in English?”

       FIFY.
       • Molly 3.1.2.1

         29 January 2024 at 12:17 pm

         How exactly is that an informative response rather than a made up (and irrelevant) supposition?

         BTW, quote marks are usually used for quotations, not creative writing.
         • Muttonbird 3.1.2.1.1

           29 January 2024 at 12:28 pm

           We've lost the large grey quote marks which used to be next to the indent. Now we just have the indent which I don't think is particularly clear. No need to panic, I did make it clear it was an edit of your original quote.

           It was a response to highlight the current de-Maorification of New Zealand done to placate the fears and frustrations of the Pakeha far right.
           • Molly 3.1.2.1.1.1

             29 January 2024 at 12:52 pm

             How to use quote marks correctly while making your irrelevant point:

             “How do you know if a rahui is in place if it isn't marked" in English"?"

             Another example:

             "It was a response to highlight the current de-Maorification of New Zealand done to placate the fears and frustrations of the Pakeha far right."

             Your response mechanism is predicated on a number of suppositions and fallacies that you can continue to hold.

             (Just as I can continue to think they are ludicrous, unless someone can explain persuasively otherwise.)

             BTW, it was @ianmac who stated “and drove his boat through a rahui because it wasn’t marked) “. Are you saying that you consider a rahui unmarked because a notice may or may not have been written – because it was in Te Reo?
             • weka …

               29 January 2024 at 12:55 pm

               How to use quote marks correctly while making your irrelevant point:

               “How do you know if a rahui is in place if it isn't marked" in English"?"

               Actually, FIFY formatting is used a lot online, along the lines of how MB did it.
               • Molly …

                 29 January 2024 at 1:00 pm

                 Still misuse of the quotation marks, if so. (Social media is not really my go-to for English grammar… which you probably understand.)
           • lprent 3.1.2.1.1.2

             29 January 2024 at 12:53 pm

             We've lost the large grey quote marks which used to be next to the indent. Now we just have the indent which I don't think is particularly clear. No need to panic, I did make it clear it was an edit of your original quote.

             Good point. That should have been in the css for something like 'div.comment blockquote'. I wonder what plugin (that I have turned off for simplicity) was providing that.

             I will add it onto my to-do list for today – but after I get into aircond. Have to have one of the doors closed today because the apartment is getting washed. Feels like the temperature and humidity inside is rising…

             Ummm 26C and 52% on a gardening sensor. Not too bad
             • Muttonbird …

               29 January 2024 at 1:05 pm

               Thank you. I think they're useful. Nice, big graphic which added to the look of the site and made the quote clear.

               
               • lprent …

                 29 January 2024 at 1:54 pm

                 Odd problem. The inclusion directory appears to be having problems.

                 That is meant to be the theme directory background: url(resource/image/blockquote.gif)

                 But what I got in inspect was …..

                 background: url('andard/resource/image/blockquote.gif?x45913') 5px 0 no-repeat;

                 Something weird is going on.
             • roblogic …

               29 January 2024 at 2:16 pm

               Updated my UserStyle to fix that… (installed with 'Stylus' browser extension)

               https://gist.github.com/roblogic/09d2bb93a67483f05158ccda0ae3fe53

               blockquote{
                 font-size: 1em;
                 width:90%;
                 margin:auto;
                 text-indent:0;
                 font-family: 'Quattrocento';
                 font-style:italic;
                 color: #222222;
                 padding:none;
                 position: relative;
                 background:#EDEDED;
               }
               
               blockquote::before{
                 font-family: Quattrocento;
                 content: "\201C";
                 color:#78C0A8;
                 font-size:6em;
                 position: absolute;
                 left:-20px;
                 top:-10px;
               }
               
               blockquote span{
                 display:block;
                 color:#333333;
                 font-style: normal;
                 font-weight: bold;
                 margin-top:1em;
               }    
               

               Looks pretty decent IMO… adjust font-family to your preference
   • Subliminal 3.2

     29 January 2024 at 9:29 am

     Thats priceless
   • alwyn 3.3

     29 January 2024 at 10:35 am

     Probably true.

     Doesn't Willie Jackson have a place there?
4. Ad 4

   29 January 2024 at 8:56 am

   Simeon Brown punishing the Wellington and Upper Hutt Mayors using specific powers to seek information on water supply investment shows National's tactic for water supply amounts to clubbing the weak.

   Which regrettably in NZ's punitive electorate will work just fine.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   29 January 2024 at 9:28 am

   Wild card awaits launch opportunity:

   Sen. Joe Manchin says he “absolutely” can see himself as president. Privately, the West Virginia Democrat has told people that a Joe Biden health scare or a Donald Trump conviction could give him an opening to run as an independent this year. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/28/politics/joe-manchin-biden-president-no-labels/index.html

   In public, during stops in states such as New Hampshire, South Carolina and Georgia, Manchin says he believes there’s a role for him as a national icon in the “fiscally responsible and socially compassionate” middle… As Biden tries to assert the success of his presidency, Manchin says he shaped “everything” in the president’s agenda. In an interview with CNN as he drove in New Hampshire, Manchin said the country would have been worse off if he hadn’t used the 50-50 Senate to force Biden to do things his way, arguing, “The way it was presented and the way it ended up are two different things.”

   Manchin called the president a “good, decent man” but said he worries about a second Biden term with a White House staff who he believes is dominated by a group of “far, far-left liberals.”

   Yeah, could be a goer, given both other contenders are problematic currently.
   • Macro 5.1

     29 January 2024 at 9:39 am

     🙄

     This is the guy who singlehandedly sabotaged any sensible move by the US to move towards addressing climate action.

     BTW he is heavily involved in Coal production and intends to keep it that way.
6. Ad 6

   29 January 2024 at 11:34 am

   So after the attack on the US outpost in Jordan, we get Republicans already messaging "Target Tehran".

   Trump being anti-interventionist but stupid will just shout the MAGA instinct whatever it is.

   Biden though must be getting similar pressure both via Pentagon and via media.

   No one say "Wag the Dog". It's too real.
   • mpledger 6.1

     29 January 2024 at 4:02 pm

     I would guess Iran is playing to Russia's tune. Russia got the world off it's back over Ukraine when Iran set the Palestinian attacks on Israel in motion. What's the bet some rubles changed hands to get that going.
7. Subliminal 7

   29 January 2024 at 11:42 am

   Craig Murray queued through two wintry nights in The Hague to be one of the 14 people to get admitted to the ICJ hearings. He is a very experienced ex diplomat, used to unpacking these types of documents and is quietly surprised by the depth of trouble Istael now finds itself in. The main points from his analysis are that:

   1. The only time "self defence" is mentioned is in acknowledging that a major part of the Israeli defense is around "self defence". The ICJ has thus left off stating the obvious. An occupying power can not claim self defense. They must first leave all occupied territories. It would be absurd to give occupied people the right to fight their oppressors at the same time as their oppressors had the right to self defense. To the ICJ, this is so obvious it does not need to be stated.

   2. The genocidal incitement of the senior Israeli government cabinet are written up not as alleged by SA but rather as statements of fact.

   3. Statements by the head of UNRWA on the extreme conditions in Gaza and the approaching famine and disease amongst the huge displaced population are written as statements of fact. This will explain the sudden attempt to villify and withdraw funding from the UNRWA.

   4. The genocide convention is written into UK law. All supporting military aid, intelligence and logistical support will now need to cease. There is already a case started in the US to put Biden on trial for aiding and abetting genocide. How this will go is anyones guess.

   Murray finishes by saying none of these processes will be quick as justice moves slowly but unless there is a massive escalation of the war, it's not looking good for the Israeli government nor for the US and UK.

   https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/01/has-international-law-survived-or-has-the-western-political-class-killed-it/
   • Siobhan 7.1

     29 January 2024 at 1:53 pm

     "This will explain the sudden attempt to vilify and withdraw funding from the UNRWA."

     There is no logical/legal/moral reason to defund UNRWA, and therefore starve the Palestinians, on the basis of the actions of (maybe) 12 of its employees.

     Keeping in mind UNRWA has lost, as in they are dead, at least 150 employees to the Israeli bombing of civilian infrastructure and the people sheltering there. Not to mention its 13,000 employees who are now refugees themselves.

     This is simply the Wests way of showing its support for Israel, and the Wests/Israels unwavering willingness to see this destruction of a country and a people through to the bitter end.

     That in itself answers your question as to how any attempt to put Biden on trial will go…

     Things may not "Look Good" for these governments, but I see no evidence whatsoever that they care…and lets be honest..those people within the system who supposedly could help hold their co workers in governments to moral account are failing miserably.

     People like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez..the darling of many a Standard commentator..who thinks that voting these genocidal war mongers, who are also failing to care for the basic needs of their own populations btw, how voting them back in scot-free is somehow "Being adult about the situation".

     Which Nations even temporarily cut diplomatic ties with America over these 12 individuals??…

     https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers

     https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/01/24/lgmk-j24.html

     I don't believe I have ever been more ashamed of my World than I am today.
     • Psycho Milt 7.1.1

       29 January 2024 at 2:39 pm

       For my part, given UNRWA's previous form for supporting antisemitic terrorism, I'm unsurprised many of the countries funding it don't find "Look, only 12 of our employees participated in a pogrom" very persuasive.
       • Ghostwhowalks 7.1.1.1

         29 January 2024 at 3:51 pm

         So UNRWA should have its own police to check every one of its 13,000 employees [IN GAZA] and out of work activities.

         After all theres 5.6 mill Palestinians registered with UWRA , Im surprised that theres not many many more than 13 amoung the 30,000 employees in the countries surrounding Israel

         Those countries 'finding problems' here , werent they the same ones that said it was 'outrageous' that Israel is being even taken to the International Court over a claim of genocide

         The whole existence of 5.6 mill refugees is of course soley laid at the feet of Israel and its Zionist existence
         • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.1.1

           29 January 2024 at 7:00 pm

           "We have many employees so it's unsurprising some of them participate in pogroms" is likely to be similarly unpersuasive to western donors.

           The reason there are so many refugees is highly disputable and disputed. Govts that invaded Israel/Palestine in 1948 for the purpose of dividing the place among themselves and then losing the fight after causing massive population displacement seem to me like more plausible candidates. Those govts are notable for their absence from the list of top UNRWA donors.
       • Subliminal 7.1.1.2

         29 January 2024 at 4:37 pm

         Well, show me an organisation with 100% purity. Further, 0.04% alleged contamination is a good approximation to zero.

         Also, speaking of form, Israel has form both in targeting aid agencies working in Gaza and extracting confessions through torture.

         From Euromed Human Rights Monitor:

         The majority of the horrific torture operations, according to the testimonies, start as soon as people are taken from their homes or asylum centres where many Gazans are sheltering from the ongoing Israeli attacks. Soldiers then beat the detained people and strip them naked, except for their undergarments, forcing them to sit on their knees in the street for hours while being harassed and treated with contempt

         They are then forced to curse themselves and other Palestinian groups and are violently transfered in trucks to open air detention centres for further beatings.

         In 2016 Israel arrested Mohammed El Halabi who was a World Vision worker on fabricated charges of funneling money to Hamas. It is alleged that the confession was beaten out of him and this was the only evidence ever presented.

         The Australian government comissioned an audit that found no evidence of any money going anywhere it wasn't supposed to but nevertheless suspended funding to World vision in Gaza.

         World Vision stood behind El Halabi and stated on his conviction in 2022 that the arrest, conviction and unjust verdict and (12 year) sentence are emblamatic of actions that hinder humanitarian work in Gaza and the West Bank.

         This experience caused World Vision to leave Gaza so you could say a pretty encouraging result for Israel. Worked a treat and seems to be going well this time too.
         • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.2.1

           29 January 2024 at 7:02 pm

           Ah yes, how many organisations can honestly say none of their employees have participated in a pogrom? None, surely!
           • Muttonbird 7.1.1.2.1.1

             29 January 2024 at 8:29 pm

             I'd like to know if these employees actually participated in a pogrom, of if there was a pogrom at all because it looked like a hostage taking mission to neutral observers.

             If some UNRWA employees were involved on the day, what was their role? To neutral observers there was plenty of effort to transport hostages safely to Gaza apparently under fire from the IDF. Perhaps this was their role.

             These people are resisting a creeping, murderous occupation. Remember?
             • Descendant Of Smith …

               29 January 2024 at 8:44 pm

               I'm curious about how many Israeli spies were in UNRWA given their history of infiltrating overseas organisations, using false passports etc. I mean they spy on their allies. It would be naive to think they didn't have spies in UNWRA. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel%E2%80%93New_Zealand_passport_scandal

               The 2004 Israel–New Zealand passport scandal was an incident of passport fraud in July 2004 that led New Zealand to take diplomatic sanctions against Israel. High-level contacts between the two countries were suspended after two Israeli citizens suspected of being Mossad agents, Uriel Kelman and Eli Cara, were caught trying to fraudulently acquire a New Zealand passport using the identity of a man with cerebral palsy. Prime Minister Helen Clark declared that New Zealand government viewed the acts carried out by Kelman and Cara as "not only utterly unacceptable but also a breach of New Zealand sovereignty and international law."

               https://merip.org/1986/01/israeli-spies-in-the-us/

               Another reading of this record, though, shows that Pollard’s activities fit a pattern of Israeli espionage efforts. As John Davitt, a 30-year veteran of the Justice Department who resigned in 1980, told the New York Times: “When the Pollard case broke, the general media and public perception was that this was the first time this had ever happened. No, that’s not true at all. The Israeli intelligence service, when I was in the Justice Department, was the second most active in the United States, to the Soviets.”
               • Psycho Milt …

                 29 January 2024 at 9:11 pm

                 I think the successes of Israel's espionage capabilities lead people to overestimate them. Spying within Gaza for Israel is incredibly high-risk, it makes spying on the USSR look a doddle. And people who are credible locals are highly unlikely to want to help Israel for obvious reasons.
                 • Descendant Of Smith …

                   29 January 2024 at 10:04 pm

                   I'm just not sure why anyone would be surprised that an organisation as large as the UNWRA working in Gaza would not have infiltrators or at the very least sympathisers from Hamas. Israel has certainly accused it of being so in the past.

                   It would be quite challenging I would think to prevent it. Israel's push to defund (and force further hardship) on the population in Gaza has been ongoing and any discrediting will do.
                   • Psycho Milt …

                     30 January 2024 at 7:03 am

                     It's true that as long as UNRWA is employing Palestinians in Gaza its schools will teach Islamist terrorism as a noble virtue and many of its staff will be candidates to participate in pogroms. It's just not obvious to me why we or other liberal democracies would fund that.
               • Visubversa …

                 30 January 2024 at 8:30 am

                 What always interested me about the Mossad spies trying to get NZ passports is that someone who has a New Zealand passport has to verify your identity and endorse the photograph. I don't recall ever hearing of someone being prosecuted for making these false statements.
                 • Descendant Of Smith …

                   30 January 2024 at 9:00 pm

                   From memory the man they tried to get to do so had significant disabilities.
             • Psycho Milt …

               29 January 2024 at 9:06 pm

               Lol, "neutral observers." Very droll sir, very droll.
               • Muttonbird …

                 29 January 2024 at 9:28 pm

                 It's not supposed to be droll. Any neutral observer views October 07 a hostage taking mission. All the actual evidence points to that.
     • SPC 7.1.2

       29 January 2024 at 4:31 pm

       The GOP is taking on Biden over his post Gaza plan for a restoration of the peace process – they call that rewarding Hamas.

       Trump ended funding to UNRWA back in 2018, Biden resumed it.

       And there is this also

       Republicans have also taken Israel's lead on criticizing the Biden administration's continued support of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). Top GOP lawmakers have demanded clarification on reports that Hamas is diverting humanitarian aid from the UN agency, which is accordingly failing to prevent such incidents, despite the U.S. being UNRWA's single largest donor.

       On Friday, the U.S. announced it is suspending funding to UNRWA due to an investigation into 12 employees suspected of involvement in the October 7 attacks in Israel by Hamas. It has since been joined by the United Kingdom, Australia, Finland, Italy, and Canada.

       https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-01-25/ty-article-magazine/.premium/republicans-are-looking-at-netanyahu-for-how-to-combat-bidens-post-war-gaza-plans/0000018d-4162-d35c-a39f-eb7a4a6e0000?gift=77e2c95918264f3585e10ec0d656c57a
       • Subliminal 7.1.2.1

         29 January 2024 at 4:42 pm

         Trump partially cut funding. Biden cut the whole lot off. You might find that part of the problem with Bidens collapsing vote is that people are thouroughly nauseated by endless lesser evil arguments.
         • SPC 7.1.2.1.1

           29 January 2024 at 4:46 pm

           Biden “suspended” the funding.

           And your reference for a only a partial funding cut by Trump?

           https://www.brookings.edu/articles/in-one-move-trump-eliminated-us-funding-for-unrwa-and-the-us-role-as-mideast-peacemaker/
           • Subliminal 7.1.2.1.1.1

             29 January 2024 at 5:25 pm

             You're right on funding. The ICJ says there is a case to answer on genocide, specifically stating the extent with statements of facts as they stand, and Biden's answer is to cut the one last line of humanitarian aid, the effect of which will be to hasten the genocide, and you are making lesser evil arguments?
             • SPC …

               29 January 2024 at 5:36 pm

               The decision to suspend funding during an investigation is questionable given the need to improve aid provision in the immediate term.

               The GOP pressure in the House for Biden to do so is obvious, but giving BN's government what they want could easily backfire, if they are then seen as in breach on an interim decision that their judge on the ICJ supported.
       • Adrian Thornton 7.1.2.2

         29 January 2024 at 8:51 pm

         "The GOP is taking on Biden over his post Gaza plan for a restoration of the peace process"

         You are obviously aware that Biden is arming Israel with 2000lb bombs and thousands probably tens of thousands main tank round + lots lots more, which are both the back bone of the Genocide that is taking place right now, and further the USA has never been a peace broker in the ME during it's entire position as world hegemony, let alone in this affair, so please don't offer up that total load of rubbish "restoration of the peace process" wtf…

         ….the outrageous cognitive dissonance that the Liberal class display out in the open…seemingly totally unaware of the moral and ethical quick sand that is about to finally cover them is nothing short of astounding.

         And now Biden stops aid because the country that has just been implicated in a horrific genocide tells him that there are some Hamas fighters working there….this all coming from Israel, one of the most flagrant bullshitters on the face of the planet….the rules based order…yeah right.

         Biden is in power..Biden is aiding and abetting Genocide, right now as we speak,humans are starving, dying, being mutilated, humiliated, in their hundreds of thousands..by Biden…not Trump…vote Blue no matter Who,…even a war criminal…is that what you are seriously advocating?
         • SPC 7.1.2.2.1

           29 January 2024 at 9:16 pm

           The GOP of the House is demanding Biden do that and more. Trump has made no criticism of any of it.

           The idea that no true leftie should have any preference for Biden over Trump because of … when he is the less worse of the two … is a strange one.

           And when one adds in GW activism, labour rights and environment etc, it is rather surprising.
   • SPC 7.2

     29 January 2024 at 5:02 pm

     1.The ICJ would have made no statement about the right of Israel to exercise military power in the occupied territories in its self defence because it was focused on the genocide issue before it (and there was also the issue of Hamas taking the fight into Israeli territory – there being no Israeli occupation within Gaza).

     4.There has been decision on whether there has been genocide to influence UK government obligation nor therefore a case to answer in the USA either.

     Given the time frame of the ICJ process to the duration of the Israeli Gaza offensive the real issue is Israeli response to the interim decisions and UK and USA reaction to that.
     • Subliminal 7.2.1

       29 January 2024 at 5:34 pm

       The Israeli case centred on self defence. The only other argument was that the ICJ did not have jurisdiction. Its incredible that you can believe that a state can invade and occupy another state and then claim self defence when the locals fight back. The right to fight back is enshrined in the UN Charter. What you propose is contradictory rubbish. You've even called them "occupied territories". Lebanon was also in the right when they evicted the IDF from Southern Lebanon in the 2000s. Im afraid you've just drunk the US and UK cool aid that says empires have the right to invade if they invoke self defence. They do not
       • SPC 7.2.1.1

         29 January 2024 at 5:45 pm

         The Israeli case may have been based on self defence, but that does not allow war crimes and these war crimes after incitement to genocide is why the case was accepted, is proceeding and Israel is expected to abide by interim decisions, so as to prevent an escalation to genocide.

         The occupied territories were not the territory of another state when occupied, no state of Palestine in the area had been declared or even advocated for – the population had accepted Egyptian and Jordan presence as part of a cease-fire in an earlier war to prevent the existence of a Jewish majority nation state.
8. weka 8

   29 January 2024 at 3:27 pm

   Gender identity ideology still falling, one case at a time. I couldn't list how many of these there have been. A couple of examples just from today.

   1. Vice Chancellor of the Open University in the UK making a public statement apologising to Professor Jo Phoenix, criminologist, for failing to protect her in her work environment from harassment when she starting set up the Gender Critical Research Network.

   GCRN is crucial because of the immense pressure on academics to not talk about and research sex-based phenomena. eg in crime, it's the impact of males in women's prisons, or women who have been raped having to listen to their rapist being referred to as she, or safety implications for women where their single sex spaces are now designated as mixed sex.

   https://twitter.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1750950590861971530

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/22/open-university-academic-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views

   2. Rip Curl drops one if its women ambassadors and brand wearers because of her gender critical views. Then it chose a trans-identified male to represent women's surfing in an ad campaign. Now it's been boycotted and had to remove its social media featuring the trans identified male.

   https://twitter.com/WomensForumAust/status/1751790204514685058

   https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13003985/Rip-Curl-transgender-Sasha-Lowerson-Bethany-Hamilton.html
   • gsays 8.1

     29 January 2024 at 6:51 pm

     The resistance is still there.

     In the 4pm RNZ news bulletin, in an item about an Auckland physiotherapist who has been censured for inappropriate behaviour has to under go ethics training before he "…can treat female identifying patients…"

     I don't think I've heard that term in that sort of context on 'red radio' before.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018923844 at about 2 mins 28secs.
     • weka 8.1.1

       29 January 2024 at 7:04 pm

       yeah, that's damn insulting given he was sexually assaulting women*. I wonder if it's RNZ's language, or the language of the ruling against the man?

       *although I guess we don't actually know now if it was women he was assaulting, because currently in NZ the word woman has been made a mockery and nonsense.
   • roblogic 8.2

     30 January 2024 at 2:04 am

     North and South have published an important article about puberty blockers – very balanced and apolitical. We could be close to a break in the one-sided rhetoric.

     A Terrible Trap — North & South Magazine (northandsouth.co.nz)

     It is *so* similar to the Unfortunate Experiment. From an article about medical abuse, and how it happens:

     In New Zealand [Herb] Green is infamous as the physician behind the “unfortunate experiment.” His tragic flaw was signaled by a phrase written on his office chalkboard: “Don’t confuse me with the facts—my mind is made up.” Green was convinced that cervical carcinoma in situ (CIS)—a condition in which abnormal cells are found on the surface of the cervix but not yet any deeper—would not progress to invasive cervical cancer. Never mind the scientific evidence, or expert consensus, or even the policy at his hospital, all of which instructed that CIS should be treated, not simply left alone.
     • weka 8.2.1

       30 January 2024 at 6:41 am

       thanks! I hadn't seen that before. Charlotte Paul is another one we are very lucky to have.
9. Tabletennis 9

   29 January 2024 at 4:54 pm

   Gender identity ideology still holding up in NZ higher circles: this example from the NZ Midwifery Council: who have removed the words -women – and even -baby- from a midwives scope of practice

   “ Women’s Rights Party co-leader Jill Ovens:
   The scope of practice for all regulated professions should be clear and specific as it sets the boundaries of each profession’s practice. This protects both the professionals and their consumers,” Ms Ovens says.
   https://community.scoop.co.nz/2024/01/midwifery-council-erasing-the-words-women-and-mothers/

   Petition of Deb Hayes: Investigate Midwifery Council’s removal of ‘woman & baby’ from Scope of Practice
   https://petitions.parliament.nz/6e261231-b54c-4a00-a98c-08dc109c0ada
   • Visubversa 9.1

     29 January 2024 at 5:17 pm

     Not to mention the RSE School curriculum which tells kids that they have a "gendered soul" and can change their sex. And we dish out so called "Puberty Blockers" (off brand) more than many other comparable countries..

     Good to see some local light shone on this reckless and ideological practice.

     https://northandsouth.co.nz/2023/12/24/puberty-blockers-new-zealand/
     • David 9.1.1

       29 January 2024 at 6:20 pm

       According to the NZEI, your concerns are 'conspiracy based thinking'. And Jan Tinetti, says it's part of some 'imported culture war', and there really is no problem at all.

       “We have a really good curriculum in this country. The guidelines are not the curriculum, they are adding to how we can make sure the curriculum is taught well. They are not compulsory, but they are absolutely superb.”

       Government accused of ‘conspiracy’ thinking in sexual education curriculum changes – NZ Herald
       • weka 9.1.1.1

         29 January 2024 at 6:55 pm

         Do you know what No Debate is? It affects gender identity ideologists too. They end up looking stupid, but it's probably ignorance as well as ideological blindness.

         Remember when Sean Plunket asked then PM Hipkins the 'what is a woman?' question? And Hipkins stumbled over his answer. He seem unprepared, which was extraordinary given this was post Kellie Jay Keen's visit, and UK Labour had been through years of challenge over that question to the point that they had to change their policy position. It was mindblowing seeing Hipkins unprepared, but it does suggest his advisors are ignorant of what is going on.

         Not hard to see it being the same with Tinetti. The other option I guess is that she understands well enough and is being disingenuous.
         • Psycho Milt 9.1.1.1.1

           29 January 2024 at 7:06 pm

           That was a truly astonishing moment (Hipkins having had no briefing on what to say if asked 'What is a woman?'). Mindblowing alright. The self-confidence that no-one could reasonably disagree with them leaves them completely defenceless if someone does.
         • David 9.1.1.1.2

           29 January 2024 at 7:12 pm

           Thanks Weka. Yes, I'm well aware of No Debate and the impact it's having on the free exchange of ideas. Or should I say the freedom of gender critical ideas.

           Love him or loathe him, Plunkett gives this issue a robust airing, and published this piece by Yvonne Van Dongen just last week. Identity crisis | The Platform
           • Molly 9.1.1.1.2.1

             30 January 2024 at 9:04 am

             Sean Plunket has platformed a couple of women involved in the Albert Park debacle, who have given succinct accounts. However, when speaking of the himself, his grasp of the topic and the underlying safeguarding and evidence failures seem to be lacking.

             The article you have linked to is paywalled, but the website for Resist Gender Education can be found here: https://www.resistgendereducation.nz/

             Garwhoungle who used to comment (and perhaps author) here, has some good posts on their blog: The Ministry Has Fallen, about some of the aspects and impacts of this ideology:

             https://theministryhasfallen.substack.com/
             • David …

               30 January 2024 at 11:27 am

               Sean is an arse, but he is one of only a very few who platform gender critical commentators.
       • Molly 9.1.1.2

         30 January 2024 at 9:16 am

         Many people are unaware that TKI provides education guidelines, not curriculum itself. Curriculum can be sourced, and also delivered by third parties.

         The Ministry of Education in the RSE guidelines gives recommendations for which providers to go to for curriculum.

         InsideOut is one such organisation. As third-party providers their material is not accessible under an OIA request, because of commercial privacy. This means that parents and caregivers are unable to view and assess for themselves much of the content being delivered.
         https://insideout.org.nz/resources/

         One module – published by the Ministry of Education that can be viewed is the one on pornography. It provides no assessment of the harms of pornography production and viewing, and is intended to remove the shame associated with pornography. There is also no assessment of the supposed advantage to students of consumption of pornography in terms of personal sexual well-being, behaviour or understanding of consent:

         https://t.co/NN3v7kVj9i
         • David 9.1.1.2.1

           30 January 2024 at 11:33 am

           "This means that parents and caregivers are unable to view and assess for themselves much of the content being delivered."

           Is that information able to be accessed by parents from the school direct without recourse to OIA? Or are schools resisting releasing that material?
   • weka 9.2

     29 January 2024 at 7:00 pm

     NZ is many years behind the UK. We can only hope that the work done by progressive GCFs and others will be something we can use here instead of going down the conservative backlash route.

     We are very lucky to have Ovens, and actual left wing person.

     And Speak Up For Women did get a court ruling that established to some extent that you can't discriminate on the basis of gender critical belief (in that case, it was for venue hire).
10. SPC 10

    29 January 2024 at 5:53 pm

    Paula cares, she cares so much she ended the TIA for those on the DPB when Minister.

    Now her care extends to those under 25 on the Job Seeker Benefit.

    She calls obligations on these people caring. She does not mention the PM's policy in this area – she is preparing the public for that. He has mentioned appointing non W and I people for these people to be accountable to while unemployed.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paula-bennett-young-people-on-jobseeker-benefits-need-sanctions/R4N4FCWEWZBZRLOPB6RVWKQDVU/
11. SPC 11

    29 January 2024 at 6:24 pm

    Damien also cares, here he shills for the governments plans to open up New Zealand to foreign investment, leaving only a national security test.

    This will allow land on the coast to be flicked on to foreigners who want investments in scarce assets, not subject to a CGT. And given we have no public domain on the F and S, locals will lose access to the coast as a result.

    He pretends that such investment will enable us to produce more goods and services, when in fact it is just leveraging ownership of a scarce resource for an untaxed CGT.

    The reason why we lack domestic investment in the productive economy is that our tax system incentivises ownership of assets for CG – opening that up to foreign involvement is not an improvement.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/350160439/we-do-not-produce-enough-goods-and-services-maintain-our-lifestyle

    PS The mention of Ireland is misleading, they simply used their membership in the EU to act as a low tax centre for non European actors.
12. Stephen D 12

    29 January 2024 at 7:20 pm

    How I wish we had First Dog on the Moon here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2024/jan/29/toto-the-tax-cut-cavoodle-explains-the-updated-stage-three-tax-cuts?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
13. SPC 13

    29 January 2024 at 8:23 pm

    I've been on X and can report about the cancel culture that operates there – Sean Plunkett opposes the National led government funding UNRWA and Leo Molloy wants to defund the UN.

    https://twitter.com/SeanPlunket/status/1751388665870459138?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

    https://twitter.com/LeoMolloyNZ/status/1751057158794621128?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

    It seems that those who want to rewrite the Treaty have an empathy for those who want all the land without any responsibility to others it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. Or un-sign the problematic UNDRIP (indigenous people rights) again showing a disregard for another peoples identity – there the UN determined area for a state for Arab Palestinians.
14. Robert Guyton 14

    29 January 2024 at 9:57 pm

    sprezzatura

    This, from Trotter, is genius, imo.

    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-cuckoos-nest.html
    • Muttonbird 14.1

      29 January 2024 at 10:09 pm

      He's pimping for Seymour. You like that?
15. Robert Guyton 15

    29 January 2024 at 10:13 pm

    I think he's pointing to a flash-point, independent of personalities, but typical of meaningful change. My position is; oppose the proposition, but am mindful of the danger of iterative, "soft" change and its vulnerability to unpleasant agents.

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