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Open Mike 29/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 29th, 2018 - 152 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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152 comments on “Open Mike 29/10/2018”

  1. Ed 1

    There is no conundrum, Stuff.
    You just don’t eat meat produced on an industrial scale.

    For 3 simple reasons.

    1. It is incredibly cruel.
    2. It is terrible for the environment.
    3. It is bad for your health.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/108131459/editorial-the-chicken-conundrum

  2. Morrissey 2

    Making Fun of Stupid People.

    Victim No. 4: Paul Henry

    pwned to be dominated by an opponent or situation

    Making Fun of Stupid People is compiled by Hector Stoop, for Daisycutter Sports Inc.
    Victim No. 1 Cameron Slater; No. 2 Murray Deaker; No. 3 Kerre Woodham

    http://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/10/making-fun-of-stupid-people-victim-no-4.html

    http://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/10/making-fun-of-stupid-people-victim-no-3.html

  3. Jenny 3

    A bloody business

    Mysterious Defence ‘forum’ an insult to democracy
    John Hinchcliff – Stuff.co.nz, October 29, 2018

    ….A few of the expected international companies and one of their many products include the following.

    Lockheed Martin with self-steering bullets
    Boeing with their portable Laser weapons
    Britain’s BAE with their Thermal Imaging Night Vision system
    Israel Aerospace Industries with insect-like drones that detect and destroy remote enemy targets and machine guns that can fire around corners
    America’s Magpul Industry with machine guns that can fold into our pants’ pockets
    Hawker Pacific, General Dynamics and others are expected.
    A significant variety of other weaponry will be for sale……

    • WeTheBleeple 3.1

      Cowards in suits always meet behind closed doors; their views and dealings being completely unacceptable to non-sociopath humans.

      But what of all the Mum and Dad investors? Up to their necks in it as far as I’m concerned.

      Is it just the cost of business for them too?

      I think so. Like cashing in on a jacked up market in housing as the market separates society… Nothing to see here except my new car.

      Shareholders in war. Right next door to you.

      • Ed 3.1.1

        That’s why 40% vote National
        They’re up to their necks….

      • reason 3.1.2

        Fisk on Jamal Khashoggi’s murder —

        ” And you’d have to note, wouldn’t you, the repulsive and hypocritical outpouring of anger by our brave and moral western leaders at Jamal’s murder. They’ve been tut-tutting for two years about the Yemen war, making excuses for it, selling arms for it and avoiding personal responsibility for it, and it’s quite obvious that they care far, far more about Jamal’s death than about the 5,000 civilians who have been killed in the Yemeni conflict. What is a child’s death worth or the killing of guests at a wedding party compared to Jamal’s murder? I guess that we can always find excuses for Yemeni casualties – “collateral damage”, “human shields”, “full investigation”, etc ” ..

        ” He ( Trump ) had already blurted out that he didn’t want to give up US arms sales to Saudi Arabia. We had our own beloved prime minister referring to Jamal’s gruesome murder as a “killing”, rather than a murder.”

        https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/khashoggi-latest-saudi-arabia-murder-yemen-consulate-istanbul-turkey-mecca-a8600886.html

        Yemen ……… 46 mins

      • Wayne 3.1.3

        The Labour NZF government has just signed the largest defence contract since the ANZAC frigate contract with $2 billion plus contract for four P8’s (replacing the 55 year old Orion’s).
        I don’t think either Ron Mark or Jacinda Ardern are sociopaths in suits. And Ed, as far as I am aware neither fit into the 40% National voting group.
        Being realistic on defence does not make someone a sociopath.

        • francesca 3.1.3.1

          Where’s the realism ?
          Who is poised to attack us?
          Or are you referring to the need to “belong to the club”?….playing war games with the big swaggering bullies of the world.
          Whose day will be very shortly over

          The reality is that we could spend that money earmarked for hypothetical wars on the huge threats to NZ that are present already
          Homelessness, climate change , child poverty,ecological desecration
          The world has changed, and we have to find new ways of living in it.
          Stuff your Darwinian realisms, time for the great new idea of collaboration and co operation…. a pox on your seedy old militarism masquerading as realism

          • gsays 3.1.3.1.2

            Thanks francesca for saying that.
            It mirrors my response.

            Kinda simple, it’s got nothing to do with our defence needs.

            Vulgar waste of money.

            Seems like Winston’s desire to break from neo liliberalism is a wee way off.

          • McFlock 3.1.3.1.3

            I don’t think anybody’s poised to invade us, but our EEZ is constantly under threat from poaching.

            And SAR is a big job requiring legs.

            One thing that might be interesting to do (especially when large-scale disasters e.g. hurricanes or earthquakes hit) is a sort of google earth of a flyover. The crew have their main search equipment as always, but a static high-res camera just does photo surveillance. Secondary review can then be crowdsourced for signs of life, damage levels, and anything else that might be useful but requires large volumes of work to identify.

          • Exkiwiforces 3.1.3.1.4

            Where’s the Realism?
            Its’ called Chap 1to Chap 7 UN Missions, or to the GofTD mission/ policy Statements to the NZDF which dictates the overall make up of the NZDF now and into the future.

            Who is poised to attack us? If I knew I wouldn’t be here atm, its rather like having a punt on the Nags or this weeks lotto numbers? But from a Military POV once we have finish doing military planning we come up 4 courses of action two from the Enemies POV his Most likely CoA and Most Dangerous CoA and we try and counter this by coming up with our most MLCoA and MDCoA. This planning template can also be for CC and HDAR etc and if take the CC atm. Then this really opens a Pandora’s box and if you have been reading some of comments that I’ve post here over the last yrs, especially the 18 to 24mths. Then you would know some of the scenario’s I’ve post aren’t good regardless of it being MLCoA and MDCoA.

            In a nut shell Military planning is plan for worst case, but hope for the best. In todays 24hr news cycle, todays pollies/ civil service and most people only now worry about today events. Not into future past the 3yr election cycle as they more worried about their back hip pocket than something that may or not happen in 5yrs, 10yrs, 15yrs or 20yrs time etc etc.

            I’ve done the S2, S3, S5, S7 and S9 role in the last 5yrs on the home front and on operations before I was medical discharged for mental health reasons on the 2Jul 2018.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(military)

            • patricia bremner 3.1.3.1.4.1

              Good health and I remember your “Don’t declare war before July ?” I forget the actual date. I know that “Count down”. The waiting ’till your life is your own again. It takes time to repair and “come down” from stress. All the best. Govt’s shopping!!@#**

        • Dukeofurl 3.1.3.2

          Wont be too long before US Navy publishes its contract price with Boeing for a block buy of P-8s along with a few for other nations, including NZ

          We will then find out the average cost per plane in that block and it will come at a fraction of the price of $2 bill plus.
          Theres going to be a lot of explaining to do why we ‘pay’ so much more than Us does. And 15% GST doesnt cover it all.

          Even if we do it on the basis of USN price +50% and convert to $NZ . A big gap.

          No ones explained why a large expense at Ohakea when the runway at Whenuapai could easily be extended at the SW end. The P-8s need more runway than the bigger , heavier 757s

          • Wayne 3.1.3.2.1

            Dukeofurl

            As I understand it, the unit cost of a P8 is about $350 million. But a new user like NZ has to buy a training package, a simulator, a huge amount of spare parts, hence the higher costs. The contract price seems about right to me.

            As for the shift to Ohakea, that will almost certainly be about closing Whenuapai and turning it into housing. Personally I always thought a base facility for the RNZAF on the second runway at Mangere made sense. A lot of countries do something like that, including Germany at Frankfurt.

            francesca,

            There are two fundamental reasons to buy the P8. The first is the enormous amount of EEZ around NZ and the Pacific realm nations. Only a P8 has got the range to do serious surveillance and search and rescue work.

            The second is alliance relations with Australia and the US. Australia in particular. They are our permanent partner. They reasonably expect us to be able to surveil our part of the world, and provide search and rescue. Not really about fighting wars, although the P8 does have serious defence capability if that was a prospect.

            You can’t buy a civilian spec P8. Helen Clark wanted to do that with the upgrade of the P3 in the early 2000’s. She soon found it impractical. A decent search and surveillance radar is also a mil spec radar. Similarly with all the data processing gear. As for all the other things the money could be spent on, well you could, but you would also have no idea what was happening in the oceans around us. Neither could you rescue anyone. At 1.2% of GDP, New Zealand has a pretty cheap defence force. It is half (as a percentage of GDP) of what Australia spends.

            Those who think the days of the US are done in the Pacific are seriously mistaken. A country of over 350 million people, which is the richest in the world and with territories right across the Pacific (Hawaii, Guam, Midway, American Samoa, Northern Mariannas, to name just some) is not going to become irrelevant any time in the next 50 years (or more). What the US will have to do is accept that China is its co-equal, something it is finding hard to do. This is not just a thing for Trump, it is right across the US political system. They all find it hard to deal with the rise of China.

            • Stuart Munro 3.1.3.2.1.1

              It’s pretty fatuous talking about our EEZ when you morons have illegally privatized the fishery resources therein, and allow them to be caught by foreign charter vessels. Just what value to NZ do you imagine there is now left to protect? And why can’t the thieves who stole those resources (with your connivance) pay for their protection? Nothing to do with us anymore. Fuck ’em.

            • Francesca 3.1.3.2.1.2

              We don’t need to spend vast amounts of money training the young to kill and buying attack weapons to rescue the odd lost fisherman or help our Pacific neighbours in distress
              Distress I might add destined to become critical largely through
              The excesses of our lifestyles,not theirs
              My preference is Costa Rica style neutrality and if that means a simpler way of life in NZ so be it

              • Wayne

                francesca,

                There is no other aircraft that can do the job across the full EEZ or search and rescue zone. The distances are simply too big.

                So saying “Don’t buy the P8” is tantamount to saying we won’t do search and rescue out in the open ocean.

                While the EEZ is only 200 miles from the coast, all the offshore islands means a lot of it is around 600 miles from the mainland of NZ. The search and rescue zone is bigger still.

            • halfcrown 3.1.3.2.1.3

              “There are two fundamental reasons to buy the P8. The first is the enormous amount of EEZ around NZ and the Pacific realm nations. Only a P8 has got the range to do serious surveillance and search and rescue work.”

              Yeah, but is it range we don’t really need if it came to a push, and are they only really purchased so we can stay in the club to play war games with the big boys.

              I have a relation in the UK who fly Dornier 228 twin turboprop out into the North Atlantic on Fisheries Patrol. Now there is a civilian aircraft and the German Navy also uses this aircraft for pollution control
              It appears to have enough range to do those two jobs.

              • Wayne

                To round out my argument, as would be obvious, I fully support New Zealand having a close defence relationship with Australia. That means we can’t opt to only have civil fisheries patrol (though the Dornier would never enough range for long range search and rescue any event).

                If we adopted the Costa Rican solution, we obviously would not have a defence relationship with Australia. I am prepared to bet we would not have much of a relationship at all. The current right of NZer’s to shift to Aus would permanently disappear. Much of rest of our co-operation would also evaporate. Trade and investment would shrink.

                From time to time Australia might belittle us, but we are never put in the same category as the very much smaller and poorer South Pacific nations. The reason being that New Zealand is one fifth the size of Australia in population terms. In contrast Samoa is 4% of New Zealand’s population.

                While some people might see us loosing the Australian partnership as a good thing, I don’t. The New Zealand social and economic fabric would be seriously harmed.

                In part Costa Rica can have its policy because it is one of seven countries in Central America, all of which are much smaller than Mexico to the North, and Columbia to the South.

                In a sense Mexico is Australia, and Columbia is New Zealand. The seven Central American states are the South Pacific nations.

                So as an analogy to Costa Rica, Samoa does not have a defence force. We don’t mind that it doesn’t. But New Zealand is a major nation in the South Pacific, so what we do matters a lot. In my view, we can’t choose the Samoan option.

          • Sanctuary 3.1.3.2.2

            That isn’t the half of it.

            With the P-8 when you do things like software upgrades you have pay the same corruption-inflated price gouging money the United States Navy does, so that’ll be hundreds of millions over the lifespan of these aircraft.

            Secondly, a twin turbofan aircraft based on a commercial airliner like the 737 is going to actually represent a step backwards in terms of low level loiter and performance. The windows are smaller, making something as basic as visual searches much harder. The twin turbofans are not very fuel efficient at low level, pushing up the sortie cost. The wing design means P-8 will stall at around 160 knots in a flaps up and loaded config, a good 30 knots higher than the P-3 Orion, and the Orion can cruise efficiently at low altitude on three engines where the twin P-8 can never shut down a powerplant. This stall potential is a well enough regarded problem for the USN to spend a considerable amount of money on software to ensure it’s simulators accurately train it’s P-8 pilots on how to deal with a stall.

            All in all, the P-8 is fundamentally a commercial airliner designed for high altitude flight, and the basic design can only partially be remediated towards low level ASW/SAR operations. This is very bad news for NZ, since our ASW aircraft actually spend most of their time looking for missing fishermen and doing low level photography of fishing boats in the EEZ, both of which will be harder to do at 50 knots faster out of smaller windows and which will take a big toll on the airframe.

            The above means that (presumably because they are all deeply corrupt and on the take from defense contractors) the USN has come up with the bizarre idea that they can limit airframe fatigue by at least partially letting some of the work be done by the MQ-4C Triton, which – SURPRISE! – will funnel another cool $180 odd million US per airframe to the the big defence contractors. Needless to say both the effectiveness of the MQ-4C to reliably spot anything useful in a SAR/Border protection role (like, say, a missing 8m recreational fishing boat or people smugglers) and it’s sortie rate have been questioned by a lot of independent observers.

            Even more seriously, the tactical premise of the P-8 configuration – that modern sensors combined with drones mean ASW aircraft can swan about at 30,000 feet and still effectively detect submarines – is, to put it mildly, unproven. let’s put it this way, no one else in the ASW aircraft game seems to agree with the Americans.

            Now, what that means is that in addition to constant and expensive upgrades EITHER the RNZAF will come cap in hand sometime in the future asking for for really, really expensive drones OR they’ll end up buying some sort of off the shelf converted twin turboprop commercial airliner OR the RNZAF P-8 fleet will run into airframe fatigue issues much earlier than they are telling us, meaning we will be buying or rebuilding P-8s much sooner than we are being told.

            These aircraft are a gigantic lemon purchased buy an airforce that refuses to acknowledge what it actually does because it think winning wargames with it’s big boy friends is what it should be doing.

            • Wayne 3.1.3.2.2.1

              Well, the lemon as you call the P8, has been bought by Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, South Korea, the UK and the US. More nations will buy them. They can’t all be wrong.

              Most of the surveillance is done by the radar and the MX20 camera, not by the mark one eyeball. People simply can’t see far enough. The radar is a very sophisticated profiling radar. The image is like a photograph.

              Low, low level is not where most of the searching is done. That occurs only when the actual location is known. Prior to that 5,000 ft to 15,000 ft is the norm. The P8 is fine for that.

              • Sanctuary

                “…Low, low level is not where most of the searching is done. That occurs only when the actual location is known …”

                Given that they’ll never spot that missing diver from 15000 feet I guess poor low level performance isn’t such a problem after all.

                • Wayne

                  I wonder how often (if ever) the P3 has been used to look for missing divers? Their location is invariably near the coast and known within a mile or two.

            • Exkiwiforces 3.1.3.2.2.2

              An excellent comment again Sanctuary. With the P8 begin apart of the Special Projects Program, Boeing has the NZ Taxpayer by the balls as any update has to go through Boeing or one of its subsidiaries either approval or disapproval and it can even veto if Non US Systems as Boeing holds all IP in relation to the P8.

              The P8 atm can’t launch any Sub weapons or Sonar Systems from 30Kft as the keep breaking up on impact with the ocean and now have to do it the old fashion way at 500ft of the deck, which Btw chew’s in the fatigue life of the P8. The reason why the Jap P1 wasn’t selected is because the NZ MoD and didn’t want to be the first of type of user Internationally because of what happen with regards to the NH-90’s and Project Protector aka the Landing Support Ship and the two the OPV’s which makes for some interesting reading.

              The UK almost walked away from the F35 JSF some years back, because Lockheed and the US pollies refuse to give the Brits the IP rights of the F35 to the Brits. So the Brits could add, replace or do mid-life updates etc down the track. Before I left the service, I was reading a Janes Defence Report in the P8 and RC-135’s currently in RAF, stating that the RAF/ MOD can’t replace any the inferior US mission support systems for the UK mission support systems that were far superior to the US one, as these MSS were part of the botch MR4 and R4 Nimrod program.

          • Exkiwiforces 3.1.3.2.3

            Actually Duke,

            You find that half or quarter of the cost of the P8 is in cost of new buildings, runways, passive and active security measures that come with the P8,
            before you add in Capital Charge and GST. As the P8 is part of the US Special Projects Program (Air), which puts this aircraft in the same league as the F22, F35 JSF, B2 and the UAV’s such Triton, Reaper and X47 UAV’s etc.

    • SpaceMonkey 3.2

      If you ever needed evidence of how sick humanity is… it’s all right there.

    • gsays 3.3

      And the local mayor:
      “Mayor Grant Smith has earlier defended the forum as nothing illegal or unethical.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/107482371/ethics-debate-too-late-for-defence-forum-protesters

    • Sanctuary 3.4

      Two things to remember about the military:

      Every cent sunk into defense is a dead cost that will never be recovered. The government investing in, say, a fleet of electric trains sees the investment returned many times over in the economic activity generated. The government investing in a fleet of tanks simply spends the next 40 years paying for the crew, the fuel, the training, the upkeep and the ammunition.

      If we do need to re-arm, the longer you can leave it before you do means you the more modern and better equipped you’ll be vis-a-vis any opponent who re-armed earlier and is left with aging kit (thus, Italy and the USSR in WW2 had re-armed to early and were left with heaps of useless eqipment, France to late so they were easily defeated, Germany before Britain and the USA last of all, giving the last two nations an advantange in equipment). This timing issue is seldom discussed but it means that unless you can identify an immediate threat (as in the a five – ten year window) you should spend anymore than the absolute minimum of a military. The trick is in timely spotting of the threat…

      • Morrissey 3.4.1

        Meanwhile, they’re lionizing that coke-snorting, whore-chasing shepherd-killer today. On television a few minutes ago, Duncan Garner gushed about him and his dopey big brother being “fine young men.”

        We were inflicted with exactly the same bullshit five years ago….

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/dont-mention-hookers-or-cocaine.html

      • solkta 3.4.2

        Every cent sunk into defense is a dead cost that will never be recovered.

        That probably depends on whether the country concerned is a net producer of arms. Through their military complex the US has secured stable access to oil and also makes a lot of money selling older weapons. There is a huge flow on effect for US tech companies as some of the technologies developed are used in a wider setting – GPS being the most obvious example.

        • Sanctuary 3.4.2.1

          Well yes, but they’ve slaughtered all sorts of people along the way. Personally, I dislike the idea of using violence and murder to take something from someone that they have and you want.

          Remember, since Nuremburg waging aggressive war (a sort of quasi-fascistic search for economic Lebensraum in America’s case) has been defined as a war crime. Whether or not you get held account for that, it is still a crime.

          And the thing about creatting a military-industrial complex is it then requires constant feeding, to clear out old stock to try out new weapons, or to simply justify it’s existence.

          • solkta 3.4.2.1.1

            I don’t disagree with those points. But i do think it is important to understand how the arms industry is part of the global economy and most importantly how it allows the US in particular to dominate the world both militarily and economically.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.4.2.1.2

            Which, of course, is why I say that weapons of war should not be made for profit. They should be researched, developed and produced by government and not sold to other nations.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.4.3

        Every cent sunk into defense is a dead cost that will never be recovered.

        True but we do need to be able to defend ourselves. It is simply part of the cost of being an independent nation.

        If we do need to re-arm, the longer you can leave it before you do means you the more modern and better equipped you’ll be vis-a-vis any opponent who re-armed earlier and is left with aging kit (thus, Italy and the USSR in WW2 had re-armed to early and were left with heaps of useless eqipment, France to late so they were easily defeated, Germany before Britain and the USA last of all, giving the last two nations an advantange in equipment).

        I’d say that would be false economics as any nation that follows that philosophy will always find itself below where it needs to be when the brown stuff hits the whirly thing.

        The government should run a permanent R&D department specifically for military. Small upgrades would be put into ships/planes/vehicles until the end of their design life. At that point new ships/planes/vehicles would be built with all new capabilities.

        Small items such as guns/personal communications/ammo/bullet proof vests would be replaced as soon practicable.

      • Exkiwiforces 3.4.4

        Fully concur with your statement Sanctuary and when you throw in CC now its becoming a ****ing nightmare, as some of the major players who have skin in the game aka pollies, civil servant’s, parts of the Big end of town and parts of the general population are either avoiding it or don’t want to know about because of cost or pain in the short to medium term. From a military PoV it makes planning bloody hard as the major plays don’t want to make a decision in fear of upsetting someone.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.5

      Weapons of war should not be made for profit.

      That said, we do need to be able to defend ourselves.

  4. WeTheBleeple 4

    For the Green readers.

    I was a pioneer of aquaponics back in the day when it was only the university of Hawaii and me (but the Aussies caught up fast). I took much of my inspiration from chinampas, and early Chinese rice farmers. (Duck rice systems today are very similar).

    The drainage systems encompassing much of NZ’s farmland would easily convert to aquaculture AND chinampa type design. Entire industries could feed off the excess nutrients already in the soil and headed for the drains.

    It’s not excess nutrient if it is captured.

    In the meantime. Here’s something positive and beautiful to enjoy.

  5. Chris T 5

    So will we get an explanation today from Ardern or her Minister as to why we are suddenly giving residency to currently jailed, parole denied, convicted international drug dealers with gang affiliations?

    Or will they continue their interpretation of being the most open and transparent govt ever?

    • Dukeofurl 5.1

      Work it out.
      hes in prison and was likely a (secret) witness in trails that convicted major drug dealers

      His lawyer got him a good deal, but his residency comes with strict conditions

      • Chris T 5.1.1

        Then they probably wouldn’t have denied him parole.

        And if he is a snitch, way to let every one know.

        What are these strict conditions btw

        • Pete 5.1.1.1

          The strict conditions are probably like the strict conditions imposed on others we don’t get to hear about.

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.1.2

          What do you mean ‘wouldnt have denied parole’

          Parole board doesnt/couldnt consider these sort of things. The Judge can give a lesser sentence or minimum non parole period. Parole Board cant consider any after jail deals.

      • SaveNZ 5.1.2

        What ever the reason should not be allowed. It is putting a criminals requirements above the general safety and wellbeing of Kiwis. The question is, how did the crims get in in the first place, first on a stolen passport, then years of crimes and now given residency. Another sterling migrant decision.

        You have to wonder how in a country like NZ than only has a population of 4.5million we somehow now seem to attract a large amount of fraudulent, drug dealing or murderous migrants to come to our shores.

        Maybe our new statistic is the most migrant criminals per capita getting citizenship here.

        Maybe our bums on seats/no questions asked or inability to question or check paperwork and follow through checks years later, our penny pinching outsourcing and contract worker approach, long error filled processes at a government/ senior level policy for everything from OIA to RMA to immigration seems to favour the criminals while repelling the honest applicants. At the end of the day, it’s irrelevant because some lawyer at the end says push bad applications through..

        Likewise any sort of enforcement is underfunded in NZ and no interest when applicants lie and mislead, so a bonus for the crims flocking here.

        As is our woke left /hard right dichotomy that helps corruption and fraudulent criminals settle here and makes NZ feel like home.

        Just a few criminals who have made NZ their new home making the news…
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12005146
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11842563
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/82387108/did-fraud-suspect-joanne-harrison-approve-her-own-leave-then-flee-nz
        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/365583/punjabi-singer-gets-home-detention-for-drivers-licences-bribes
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12077932
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11905478
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12011961
        http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/departments/news/000564.html
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/84891031/Child-abuser-wins-right-to-stay-in-New-Zealand-for-humanitarian-reasons

        • marty mars 5.1.2.1

          You’re rabid. Just admit you don’t like ANY immigrants.

          “we somehow now seem to attract a large amount of fraudulent, drug dealing or murderous migrants to come to our shores.”

          Lol we always did noddy – read the history of this country.

          • SaveNZ 5.1.2.1.1

            Typical response, are you for NZ attracting criminals migrants or not?

            As soon as evidence is put together showing a patten of offending often over years, then it is of course attack the messenger… We have a small population, why do we have so many migrant offenders operating here, undetected or just getting away with it? Most of them are only apprehended after multiple offences… they don’t pay taxes here…they come and go committing crimes and then instead of money going into appointments for doctors for blind kids here, it goes on criminal justice and prison for people who should not have ever got into the country in the first place or shown the door as soon as they committed the first offence.

            And actually I’m pro immigration, but that’s not what NZ policy is about for the past 30 years, it is about neoliberalism, which relies on getting new money into countries to keep the Ponzi going. That’s why they have had to relax the immigration criteria and ain’t too worried whether the money is from criminal activity or not. Private prisons is good business for some, so more criminals are a bonus.

            • marty mars 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Nice, the blind kid ‘story’, so classy.

              You’re dreaming if you think suddenly we have more bad people or crims coming here. Maybe they are measured better now. I have no problem with vetting people who get allowed to come here – but it is all subjective – you may be too young to remember the various ways euros and the english were encouraged to come here and there were plenty of crims in that lot. Lol you need to get real imo.

              • SaveNZ

                0h well,I suppose cheap drugs are of benefit to some so maybe you don’t really feel the need to have better laws – but look around the poor, working poor and the middle class are getting worse and worse off in this country while we are apparently in an economic boom.

                Mental health, drug use, suicide is up especially for Maori and Pakeha men (who are NZ’s most evil these days), and many measures against other countries like literacy and infant deaths are performing poorly in NZ. So I don’t take your view that rampant immigration and criminal migrants coming to NZ and propping up neoliberalism here is not having an effect.

                The mainstream is addicted to immigration because it is a short term fix to keep NZ poor business practices and laws running without having to change ,privatise assets and change to offshore human capital. Under Rogernomics the whole psychology of thinking about NZ workers has been changed into the negative and that has an effect on people’s mental health and how they view themselves. The woke lefties are helping them.

                Local people are committing suicide and suffering mental health because there is little future for many people because now a situation has been created where it’s hard to get a secure job, the job’s pay is out of kilter with the cost of living so there is not much feeling you can get ahead and have social mobility anymore, nor is there interest in anybody unravelling how that can be remedied when simple basics like petrol/public transport, food or power is now taking up large chunks of people’s salaries.

                Youth are in debt before they even start out in life. Then we hear about all these job shortage, but look deeper and then work out how affordable it is, to work those jobs and the cost of that degree or diploma and the cost of living while trying to get that study going.

                I hate that social spending is being siphoned off into cooperate welfare and apprehending criminals that shouldn’t be here in the first place. The Ponzi’s are now everywhere you look. Auckland is rampant, but it’s spreading all over NZ now. Further poverty and suicide will follow.

          • OnceWasTim 5.1.2.1.2

            I kind of agree @ marty mars.
            There’s a helluva lot I agree with SaveNZ about in relation to his thoughts on immigration. It just seems to me that he seems to think we should absolve ourselves of ALL responsibility to those victims of our past immigration policies that set up a structure that allowed massive exploitation of those that could/can least afford it. Just (what he sees) as a few casualties whose lives have been devastated appears to be OK.
            Quite disappointing really but it shows how the actions of a few arseholes allow a whole demographic to be tarred with the same brush and demonised.

            I’ve watched a while over the past couple of years, and he’s correct about quite a few things to do with immigrant exploitation, shitty tertiary courses, who is exploiting whom and so on. I’m not sure however he realises the extent to which NZ Citizens ( and yes…… WASP Kiwis, not just immigrant politicians ) have been involved in all of it.

            And I don’t see much thought given to the hypocrisy that thinks it OK for Koiwois to swan around the rest of the world – as economic migrants heading for a better income in Australia, or the UK or Trumps America – returning home at will if and when the going gets tuff, yet others are not allowed to seek a better life offshore.
            I guess Koiwois are allowed to be esprayshnull and entrpreneurial and exceptional, but anyone from what we label a 3rd world is not entitled to hold any of those same hopes and esprayshuns going forward.
            Christ! how this country has fallen.

            Double standards much? I guess ethics and principle mean SFA these days.
            I’m actually quite amused by the furore over a Czech, supposedly from the badlands (actually definately from the badlands) and the pearl clutching that’s going on when its contrasted against a Peter Theil and his many ilk

    • reason 5.2

      We give knighthoods to drug sellers …… sir doug myers

      And personally I’d rather have this nasty little woman killing Pom booted out of the country …. or locked up again until he shows where he hid the body of his last victim.

      And how the hell did he gain residency … after trying to cut his first wife s throat in England before moving here?.

      Why is the information about his first wife ….. and the fact he is a english immigrant ,,,,missing from the NZ Govt information on him.

      Presumably he lied on his residency application ….. so why did we not boot him out when he finished his last lag for killing a innocent woman ?.

      who do you think is the worst criminal Chris T ?

      “English-born Francis was sentenced to 12 years jail on May 2, 2003, for manslaughter.”

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4651604/Cop-begs-killer-to-come-clean

    • mac1 5.3

      There is an incredibly stupid, or brilliantly scripted, response from an immigration lawyer who says that the man in question should be deported to the Philippines to be be met at the border by drug-user assassinating advocate, President Duterte.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/immigrant-drug-lord-karel-sroubek-should-be-gone-by-lunchtime-simon-bridges.html?fbclid=IwAR2bUOADXMlaHvXw1ELPvqb85oMowjTzz5KJwT8FnE_75LudnBgQ2mAnSag

      The article also shows that Simon Bridges speaks in clichés, “gone by lunchtime”, “Let’s cut to the chase”.

      He argues very poorly that the man should be gone straight away but does not know what the reasons are as to why he has been given residency upon release. So how can he argue for immediate deportation. Fair enough he should get as much information as he can, but he has pre-judged the issue, when it is obvious from the Minister that this is a special case.

      Bridges then says that he had talked to his party’s former immigration minister, Woodhouse, who had never granted residency in a ‘like for like situation’. National always fronted and explained, he proudly asserted, but they had never granted such a residency. He is accusing Labour of not fronting to explain, but his party never put themselves in the situation where they had to explain why they gave residency to such man.

      So, Bridges is not comparing like to like. He is asking for transparency and does not seem to recognise or care that revealing the reasons and the conditions is dangerous to the man in question and to the deal struck for him to get residency.

      This is politicking by Bridges and shows the same response that he and his party had with the whole JLR shambles- no empathy, political gaming at other’s expense,
      faulty reasoning, prejudging, disregard for natural justice.

  6. Chris T 6

    “but does not know what the reasons are as to why he has been given residency upon release.”

    And why is that again?

    • Muttonbird 6.1

      I see Simon has used one of the most unfortunate quotes in NZ history with which to illustrate his latest barking-at-cars effort.

      “Gone by lunchtime”, was what Brash was going to do with NZ’s nuclear free legislation, iirc.

      Simon really is a buffoon.

    • mac1 6.2

      So, not knowing why he had been given residency upon release, he still calls for ‘gone by lunchtime’. Not just saying something like “We deserve to know more when a convicted rat-bag gets residency instead of deportation,” which is a fair position to take- nor, “Perhaps the Minister might give me a confidential briefing considering this obviously special case.”

      No, Simon Bridges, a former Crown prosecutor, who must know about deals done with special witnesses, crown protection, goes politicking.

  7. reason 7

    I’m not diverting ………. especially as I think your just political point scoring.

    you wrote “why we are suddenly giving residency”

    I’m pointing out that far from being a new thing ….. far worse criminals ( two dead new zealand women with my example ) …….. have wrongly been allowed to stay here.

    Now I suddenly await your criticism of the last National government …..

    ” Four of China’s ‘most wanted’ for alleged corruption are reported to be hiding out in Auckland ”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11847325

    • Chris T 7.1

      What are you on about?

      Any of them that came in under National or Labour that are as seriously dodgy as this bloke shouldn’t have.

      Now back to this bloke who is actually now?

      • reason 7.1.1

        The Pommy woman killer is walking around in New Zealand Now ….

        Like right fucking now ….. unless we got lucky and he died.

        He could lining up his next victim ….. 3 relationships so far , 2 dead women and one with a half cut throat.

        Which is of more danger to New Zealand ???

        And Guess which drug the two time woman killer used and blamed …. hint, the one National pretends is not a drug …. ” Although alcohol can lead to addiction, disease, overdose and death, it is sold without a health warning label or a recommended dose. It is sold to pregnant women with no warning that it may lead to fetal deformity and to teenagers with no warning that they are especially vulnerable. ”

        Maybe you need to get your priority s right ?

        The dangers of ecstasy

        • OnceWasTim 7.1.1.1

          That’s not even the half of it @ reason!
          There are people banged up at Madge’s pleasure for trying to chop their flatmate’s ear off in a fit of ‘P’ fueled pique in Strathmore (wellington) – that’s even after spending most of their time beforehand ushering people around the Wellington precincts in Uber Prius vehicular transport (all the while completely and utterly ‘out of it’).
          IF, IF, IF we’d have had properly resourced services, this would never have got near to it.
          IF, IF,IF we’d had a presence in some office that processes visa applications, they’d have been able to SEE the bloody bleeding obvious (of course that’s ONLY if it had been adequately staffed with one or two people with a bit of life experience rather than the churn of a few on contract with whatever academic degreeb[or not] they hold)

          The muppetry still astounds me sometimes, but hey ….. responsible ‘officials’ are still able to pay their mortgages and continue to give who they regard as their Munster deep and meaningful advice.
          /deep and meaningful sarc
          IF………..

          • reason 7.1.1.1.1

            What I find hard to understand about Uber OnceWasTim …. is how they came in and broke just about every passenger service Land transport regulation going …. yet were never prosecuted or run out of town.

            Examples

            Passenger service vehicles have higher Wof standards and they can only be issued at VINZ vehicle testing stations.

            Passenger service licence holders have to go through a police check and ‘fit and proper person’ criteria … ie no sex offenders .

            Log book and driving hours regulations … so the drivers must have breaks and sleep periods ..

            etc etc

            Uber is a criminal immigrant that has been brazenly flouting our laws.

            National …. the party of 80% non compliance …. thought they were sweet… I’m surprised they didn’t have Winz referring job seekers to them.

  8. Bearded Git 8

    Greens just took 19.5% in Hesse German regional election…up from 11%.

    Go those Greens! Only exit polls at this stage though.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-28/merkels-cdu-suffers-crushing-losses-hesse-election-worst-result-spd-130-years

    • Gosman 8.1

      Except the SPD failed even more miserably than the CDU and the AFD increased it’s share of the vote around the same as the Greens but from a lower base. Troubling times indeed.

  9. Gosman 9

    Something looks to be seriously amiss with the left in many parts of the World. How can someone like Bolsonaro win in Brazil when he is up against a member of a political party that was only just recently running Brazil and winning plaudits from leftists around the World.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/28/jair-bolsonaro-wins-brazil-presidential-election

    • McFlock 9.1

      Thanks for your concern

      • Gosman 9.1.1

        The real question is why are 55% of Brazilians so concerned about Communism they are willing to vote for someone like Bolsonaro .

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1

          Because they listen to liars like you. But thanks for your concern.

          • Gosman 9.1.1.1.1

            Seems like they don’t listen to people on the left though…

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh you know fascist demagogues. ever the sweet talkers, always managing to convince people that it’s only other people in the firing line.

              The main problem is that division is easier to preach than unity: white vs black, middle class vs worker, men vs women, straight vs gay. Fear of the other is an easier sell than working with the other.

              • Gosman

                The left is great at playing the whole division game. At it’s heart it is all about Class war remember?

                • McFlock

                  The left also recognises that the 1%er living surrounded by armed guards and constantly terrified of revolution is also a victim of the system, comrade.

                  • Gosman

                    Yeah but they frame the debate as poor vs wealthy.

                    • McFlock

                      No, wealthy vs poor.
                      Subtle difference. Is it really so divisive to point out by whom one is being kicked, rather than blaming anyone and everyone else?

                      But either way, that is the only real division within society recognised by most classic left authors. Everything else is artificially constructed by, and for the preservation of, captalism.

        • AB 9.1.1.2

          Because in troubled times, all sorts of morbid symptoms appear. When people get a gut feeling that neoliberal capitalism is not really serving their needs, their is no reason to believe that they will all march over in an orderly fashion to line up behind some sort of sensible, moderate social democracy.
          Many of them will go nuts and fascism becomes possible again.
          You are not telling us anything we don’t already know.

          • Gosman 9.1.1.2.1

            Except the opponent was not from some moderate Social Democratic party but from a far more left wing one. Supposedly this party should represent the views of the poor and working classes more than any moderate social democratic one.

    • Cinny 9.2

      Indeed deepest condolences to Brazil, misinformation strikes again…

      Dodgy bolsonaro, did exactly what trump did to get elected, social media.

      Calling out mainstream media as ‘fake news’ exactly like trump.

      Unless of course it’s a particular network ‘Record’ owned by a dodgy billionare bishop, just like trump used fox news.

      Worked for trump, worked for tropical trump.

      Expect this model to continue exploiting the misinformed and social media soaked citizens of other countries.

      The Listening Post has been covering the Brazilian media for quite some time, they did another report on them in the weekend in relation to Bolsonaro.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2018/10/jair-bolsonaro-future-brazil-media-181027123537118.html

  10. Poission 10

    serious work related accidents increased in 2017.The education model seems to be failing again.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1810/S00792/work-related-serious-non-fatal-injuries-increase.htm

  11. Dukeofurl 11

    back from hiding under other names and still doing your usual Gish/Gosman Gallop?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Gosman 11.1

      Eh? I never use any other name than this one. I am sure any of the moderators who can verify IP addresses can confirm that.

      • Dukeofurl 11.1.1

        Most people dont have fixed IP addresses, I noticed one day mine was a block allocated to Hawaii once- I think Telecom back then leased them for a short time.
        Still happens
        http://www.forked.net/ip-address-leasing/

        Im sure you knew that already , but LOL diverting again.

      • JohnSelway 11.1.2

        I think Duke thinks you are me and I am you.

        S/he mentioned it once I think

        • Gosman 11.1.2.1

          Duke has obviously not been around much. I have been banned for months from here and not once was tempted to create another profile to come back on. I serve my time and then pop back up.

        • Dukeofurl 11.1.2.2

          Funny that you both have the same sort health issues

          • Muttonbird 11.1.2.2.1

            😮

            They are both single issue trolls but that’s where the similarity ends, IMO.

            Gosman is fixated with Venezuela. JohnSelway is fixated with himself.

            • KJT 11.1.2.2.1.1

              Muttonbird. You, Dennis Frank and Dukefoil have been total arses, lately. Something in the water. Or overdose of jubilation at National disintegrating. Which I share, but the theory that National is competent enough to hide suborning the mental health system, to conceal their dishonesty, is extremely unlikely.

              • Muttonbird

                Hey, I’ve taken a step back as was requested. Perhaps you didn’t notice.

                I said my bit, that I was shocked at the convenience of the events that weekend.

                I also said more info was needed on the order of events, not minute detail of Jami Lee Ross’ medical records.

                Some info has been released and I think you’ll find I haven’t said another thing about it since.

                But have a crack anyway. Everyone else has…

          • JohnSelway 11.1.2.2.2

            I didn’t know Gosman had bipolar. And if he does there’s nothing funny about it

          • Muttonbird 11.1.2.2.3

            😮

            They are both single issue posters but that’s where the similarity ends, IMO. G’man is obsessed with Venezuela, while JohnSelway is obsessed with himself.

          • Naki man 11.1.2.2.4

            Yep because health issues are really funny.
            Your credibility is plummeting by the day.

          • Gosman 11.1.2.2.5

            How would you know what health issues I have?

            • KJT 11.1.2.2.5.1

              Apart from “The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result…….?”.
              Like expecting small Government, privatisation and de-regulation, to work, when it has manifestly failed!

  12. WeTheBleeple 12

    This.

    In the Irish election there was a referendum on blasphemy.

    “Many were unaware there was such an offence until a member of the public referred controversial remarks made by the actor and writer Stephen Fry on an RTÉ programme to gardai (Irish police).

    The investigation was dropped last year, reportedly because officers could not find anyone who was offended.”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45999270

    • SPC 12.1

      Our own blasphemy law is still on the books – as the past government decided to defer taking any action to remove it.

      Of course the EU still has its restraints on free speech.

      Article 10 states freedom of speech “carries with it duties and responsibilities” such as not inciting disorder and crime, protecting “health and morals” and protecting “the reputation or rights of others”.

      It’s European Court of Human rights has clarified matters with a recent ruling
      – an Austrian woman was convicted of defaming the prophet Mohammed for saying Islam’s Prophet Muhammad was “a paedophile who liked to do it with children”.

      They noted that while he married a 6 year old historical evidence was that they did not have sex till she was 9 or 10. They noted child marriage was common at the time (Aisha’s father was Abu Bakr, who would go on to become the first caliph following Muhammad’s death) and he had other wives who he married at an older age and thus paedophilia was not his sexual preference.

      “It held that by considering the impugned statements as going beyond the permissible limits of an objective debate, and by classifying them as an abusive attack on the Prophet of Islam which could stir up prejudice and threaten religious peace, the domestic courts put forward relevant and sufficient reasons.”

      Hilariously they concluded her comments “had not been made in an objective manner contributing to a debate of public interest [and] could only be understood as having been aimed at demonstrating that Muhammad was not worthy of worship”.

      I now expect a fatwa against the judges for impuning the faith of Moslems by claiming they worship Mohammed, rather than God.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/10/austrian-woman-s-conviction-for-calling-prophet-muhammad-a-paedophile-upheld.html

  13. RedLogix 13

    Coming back home yesterday Qantas were playing this Australian artist I’ve never encountered before. Very moving:

  14. Morrissey 15

    Calling out Britain’s irresponsible and dishonest State TV

  15. eco maori 16

    Kia ora Newshub I believe in God but I’m not getting into what religion or what Parliament has in there pray BUT MAN has been acting like idiots for century’s that’s why Papatuanuku is such a big mess at the minute.
    Mark I figured out Mike Hesson must have had a gig in India as soon as I heard about the new Black Caps coach Gary Stead .
    Cancer is a big problem a lot food cause health problems Its cool Anna Peters from Australia is here protesting about the ADD’S they Bombard te Tamariki and moko’s with the shops should put all there bad foods behind locked doors . They are loaded with sugars and preservatives Ka pai .
    Some one should look in the mirror pal.
    With the way man handles things with Jakarta Boeing 737 planes crash it will turn into everyone covering there——- we won’t get the true facts.
    It will change things banning single use plastics back in the 50’s they had uranium toothpaste so a world wide ban on single use plastics is a good phenomenon and big business will follow the dollar if it is better publicity for them to join the minimize plastics use movement that’s sweeping the Papatuanuku at the minute.
    Duncan I have seen story’s in most of the online News sites around the Papatuanuku
    about the Prince & Duchess visit to Aotearoa.
    Aotearoa has better cultural harmony than most country’s I say our visitor’s will feel quite relaxed hear. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t need to strive for Equality we are far from that.
    The Tooth fish industry is quite control controversial the fisheries is in Antarctic and Aotearoa can not police the fisheries so any big fishing fleet can wip down there and ravage the fisheries and could cause it to crash. Ka kite ano.

  16. eco maori 17

    Here you go Go Oil Party yours and trumps policy’s are causing damage to our future generations O that’s correct you people are primitive your cognitive process only concerns goes out one foot I.E you people can only think about yourselves and the now no thoughts of the tomorrow or anyone else on Papatuanuku.
    Around 93% of the world’s children under 15 years of age breathe air that is so polluted it puts their health and development at serious risk, accounting for 1.8 billion children, according to a report published by the World Health Organization ahead of its first global conference on air pollution and health in Geneva.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/29/health/air-pollution-children-health-who-india-intl/index.html P.S I have other duty’s for our new mokopuna

  17. eco maori 18

    This show Eco Maori that things change not long ago I was praising a court for throwing the changes to ballet laws out next minute a higher court instates it WTF.
    The go oil party are big cheats like national are in NZ but thing’s in America are bad when It comes to Native people rights for Equality Kia kaha Tangata Whenua / People of the Land in America get out and vote for your children’s grandchildren’s future its everyone duty to our descendants to fight for a happy bright future for all and vote the muppets out .
    The government didn’t need a physical address to come and steal our children for boarding school. The government didn’t need a physical address when it was time for us to be conscripted into their militaries. But now they need a physical address so that we can exercise one of the most basic principles and tenets of a representative democracy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/29/north-dakota-id-law-native-americans-vote-senate-race

  18. eco maori 19

    Human Caused Global Warming is here and now we know that tomorrow is going to be a disaster if we don’t ACT now and all combat climate change
    Venice has been inundated by an exceptional high tide which put three-quarters of the lagoon city under water. Large swathes of the rest of Italy have also experienced flooding and heavy winds which toppled trees, killing four people.
    Tourists and residents donned high boots to navigate the streets on Monday after strong winds raised the water level 156cm – more than 5 feet – before receding. Water levels exceeded the raised walkways normally erected in flooded areas of the city, forcing their removal. Transport officials also closed the water-bus system, except to outlying islands, due to the emergency. link is below ka kite ano.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/29/venice-experiences-worst-flooding-since-2008

  19. eco maori 20

    Instead of fighting wars we should be replanting lands that man has turned into deserts . Afforestation

  20. eco maori 21

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  21. eco maori 22

    I should have watched the video on planting the Sahara desert it looks like there will actually be no net benefit to combat climate warming but in regions that still have running water the equations change to benefit the stablising of our climate.
    Ka kite ano

  22. eco maori 24

    Some Eco Maori music.

  23. eco maori 25

    Here you go some more of the effects of trump spraying wai all over anyone who has a different point of view than a red muppet.
    I wonder why more white players aren’t kneeling,” Schumer wrote on Instagram. “Once you witness the truly deep inequality and endless racism people of color face in our country, not to mention the police brutality and murders. Why not kneel next to your brothers? Otherwise how are you not complicit?” Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/29/super-bowl-football-advertising-boycott-halftime-show

  24. eco maori 26

    Kia ora Newshub I was quite good at the redban throwing comp.
    There you go nationals judith got her trolls hyped up on that couple who got the first Kiwi build house she doesn’t care who she walks on.
    Angela has been in power for years she has served her country well ka pai.
    Brazil is not a very Equal country we will see if he is good for his people and country
    I won’t burst the South manuka honeys marketing campaign but Its a fact that the best honey comes from Te tairawhiti / Ngati Porou whenua .
    Its quite logical that dumb WAR will cause psychological damage to most people who are fighting in it.
    I did not feel the Quake I seen the faces in Parliament I seen a national plastic —–glasses steam up
    Ka kite ano P.S Ingrid it will be good when Te Ra comes out strong

  25. eco maori 27

    The Crowd Goes Wild on the road James & Mulls
    Yes we Kiwis don’t cheat like others do.
    Thats the way Mulls nothing wrong with apologizing we one gets it wrong .
    Thats Griss in the back ground get the Willey coach to join in te waiata to our guest the Prince & Duchess.
    That looked like a cool wave making machine in Australia .
    Anna plays bowls like some who play ten pin its a good sport bowls I was at the bowling in Tokomaru Bay a bit .
    The Thunder Basket Ball team is going strong the most 3 pointers ever ka pai
    Ka kite ano . The team is looking after The Crowd Goes Wild team no salt for Eco

  26. eco maori 28

    James & Mulls I think this is a good Waiata for the minute Aotearoa is a slice of Heaven .

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