Open Mike 29/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 10:06 am, December 29th, 2018 - 178 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

178 comments on “Open Mike 29/12/2018 ”

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    • Jenny - How to get there? 1.1
      29 December 2018 at 5:50 pm

      francesca 1
      29 December 2018 at 10:18 am
      Looking less like a slaughter in Manbij…..

      ‘Quid pro quo’

      The geopolitical maneuvering between the US and Turkey, has paved the way for the re-commencement of a genocidal slaughter in Idlib.

      I fully expect, you, like other Assad apologists here, will politely look away. Just as you always have.

  2. Jenny - How to get there? 2
    29 December 2018 at 10:48 am

    From USA Today. (little reporting of this from our media)

    Record-shattering heat wave scorches Australia as temperatures reach 120 degrees (F)
    Doyle Rice – USA TODAY, December 27, 2018

    A record-shattering heat wave continued to scorch Australia on Thursday as temperatures soared above 120 degrees in some spots.

    The extreme heat has spurred on health warnings, air quality alerts and fire bans across the nation. High temperatures are forecast to be in the 105- to 120-degree range into the weekend in many locations. Nighttime won’t offer much relief, either, as temperatures will remain well above normal.

    Though heat isn’t unusual in Australia this time of year, the level and duration of the heat wave are extreme. High temperature records have already been set in four states, news.com.au, an Australian news site said.

    A blistering high temperature of 120 degrees reported Thursday in Marble Bar, Western Australia, was only 3 degrees below the continent’s all-time record high temperature of 123 degrees, set in 1960 in Oodnadatta.

    The Northern Territory has already had a brutally hot month: “Forget frying an egg on the footpath, in Tennant Creek, Northern Territory, you could roast a whole chook in the main square, as the town heads toward its 28th day above 104 degrees this December,” the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported.

    (A chook, for those of us who don’t live Down Under, is Australian slang for a chicken.)

    Forecaster Bradley Wood of the Australian Bureau of Meteorology said Tennant Creek’s month in the cauldron “completely smashes their previous record.”….

    Where’s the justice?

    Taking advantage of the open border with White Majority Australia, I think, that over the next coming weeks, we can expect a movement of Australians to NZ to escape the heat.

    Will all our resident xenophobes and racists be complaining about this?

    Of course not, they are not brown skinned Pacific Islanders.

    Per capita, Australians are the one of the peoples most responsible for climate change.

    Per capita, (and overall being barely measurable), Polynesians are one of the peoples least responsible for climate change. Butone of the world’s peoples most negatively impacted by it.

    (A fact that also gets little media attention here).

    On the frontline of climate change in the South Pacific
    Admin – Friends of the Earth Scotland, August 27, 2018

    ‘There [are] no climate change sceptics in these island communities’

    • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1
      29 December 2018 at 11:03 am

      If there were any justice,

      If post colonial racist immigration policies were not an issue.

      In balance, Australians would have their free entry removed. (Well at least) until they pressured their leaders to do something about Australia’s world record breaking emissions). And Pacific Islanders, who are in less able to act against climate change, and most affected by it, would enjoy free entry.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.1
        29 December 2018 at 12:38 pm

        The elephant in the front room*. 

        Local media are still missing this story.

        Australian heatwave spans five states with high of 49C forecast
        Naaman Zhou – The Guardian, December 27, 2018

        Severe to extreme fire danger warnings have also been issued for large parts of WA, SA and Victoria.

        And, according to the bureau’s latest forecasts, there is no end to the heatwave in sight.

        If the New Zealand media ever finally get around to reporting on this. The words “climate change” will likely be missing from their reports.

        cue cricket sounds:

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/ 

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/ 

        http://ifasgallery.ifas.ufl.edu/entnem/walker/buzz/585ss.wav

        • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.1.1
          29 December 2018 at 2:16 pm

          “cue cricket sounds:

          Well at least in the meantime, until they become extinct,


          Climate change on track to cause major insect wipeout, scientists warn
          Damion Carrington – The Guardian, May 17, 2018

          Global warming is on track to cause a major wipeout of insects, compounding already severe losses, according to a new analysis.

          Insects are vital to most ecosystems and a widespread collapse would cause extremely far-reaching disruption to life on Earth, the scientists warn. Their research shows that, even with all the carbon cuts already pledged by nations so far, climate change would make almost half of insect habitat unsuitable by the end of the century, with pollinators like bees particularly affected.

          However, if climate change could be limited to a temperature rise of 1.5C – the very ambitious goal included in the global Paris agreement – the losses of insects are far lower……

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2
          29 December 2018 at 8:52 pm

          It’s not that they’re missing it. It’s that they’re misunderstanding it. They truly don’t understand that Australians are directly responsible for their actions.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2
        29 December 2018 at 8:49 pm

        Reality doesn’t give a shit about ‘justice’.

        It really only takes into account those who are still alive.

        Chances are, if we continue our present direction, that won’t include humans.

        Now do you understand?

        EDIT:
        This will actually be justice – we just won’t like it.

    • James 2.2
      29 December 2018 at 11:18 am

      “Will all our resident xenophobes and racists be complaining about this?

      Of course not, they are not brown skinned Pacific Islanders.”

      Nor will they have Chinese sounding surnames – which is probably more important to this government.

      • Muttonbird 2.2.1
        29 December 2018 at 11:39 am

        As a white economic immigrant yourself, where do you stand on priority access to this country?

        Wealthy white Englishmen like yourself? Chinese, rich from poor human rights standards? Middle-class Indian students brought here on a scam? Aussie cobbers who just got too hot? Pacific peoples whose homes are wrecked every other year?

        Who gets priority according to Coatsville resident and grandfather, James?

        • james 2.2.1.1
          29 December 2018 at 12:28 pm

          muttonbird – still running with the meme that Im not from NZ I see.

          I also love how you and a couple of others keep bringing up details I have sharded on here previously (relating to the topics in hand) like where I live, where my kids went to school, their approximate ages, the fact that they own their own businesses etc.

          Its like a disney version of doxxing.

          Not sure how this works with the policy however – I guess that is up to the mods – but generally it would be seen as very poor form to start trying to identify people or keep on republishing their information.

          I know that this wont make you stop (after all you are like a dog with a bone) – but Hey – Ive called you out for it.

          • te reo putake 2.2.1.1.1
            29 December 2018 at 12:42 pm

            You make a good point, james. Nature and nurture take us through childhood, and as adults, we are shaped by our experiences. It really doesn’t matter where we come from, its where we are here and now that matters on a topical blog. I agree that repeated references to your alleged country of origin borders on doxxing. It also means that some people are pointlessly limiting their responses based on what they think they know about your background. That’s just daft, in my opinion.

            So, a general warning that reference to any commenters background, known or not, should be clearly relevant to the discussion at hand.

            • Muttonbird 2.2.1.1.1.1
              29 December 2018 at 1:02 pm

              Fair enough, but I think it’s wise to not use details of your personal station in life to troll a forum. James does this a lot – the barbecues, the private schools, etc. The reason I bring it up is that I believe not much of it is the truth, and that particular commenter is making stuff up in order to annoy others on this forum.

              If the moderators think this is ok then that is the course they follow.

              Also, I’m not sure about references to background being limited to the discussion at hand. That suggests all commenters come to a thread with a clean sheet but in reality we know what drives each other because of historical knowledge. Are you saying we should scrub that knowledge?

              • McFlock …
                29 December 2018 at 2:05 pm

                Given that it’s all conjecture anyway, why bother keep bringing it up?

                After a year in government, the worst he can manage is a misinterpretation of a report that exposed a massive failing in NZ’s record keeping, and you take the bait. Make him try harder so it becomes obvious who is trolling whom.

                • Muttonbird …
                  29 December 2018 at 2:19 pm

                  I’m comfortable with my actions.

                  By the way, I was born at Waitakere Hospital – as Westie as you get!

                  • McFlock …
                    29 December 2018 at 2:41 pm

                    um – okaaay

                    • Muttonbird …
                      29 December 2018 at 3:12 pm

                      I’ll walk you through it. TRP states:

                      Nature and nurture take us through childhood, and as adults, we are shaped by our experiences. It really doesn’t matter where we come from, its where we are here and now that matters on a topical blog

                      Now I happen to think it can matter where we come from because you are shaped by your experiences. My accusation was that aging white immigrants from England have limited understanding of New Zealand identity and their largely anti-minority beliefs are a result of that. Their comments on immigration policy need to be taken in that context.

                    • McFlock …
                      29 December 2018 at 3:44 pm

                      But I have absolutely no understanding of Waitakere, because I’ve never even been there. I have no reference upon which to gauge your “understanding of New Zealand”. Just as you have no reference to gauge mine, at the other end of the country. Maybe an immigrant without our local baggage can in fact have a deeper understanding of “New Zealand” than we do, noticing the little conceits and quirks that are the water we swim in as fish. And maybe how we treat immigrants is part of what it is to be a New Zealander.

                      But it’s all pointless anyway, because nothing about a commenter is verified. I can say my father is dead, and maybe that gives me some cache to talk about grief and loss. Or maybe my father is alive, or I never knew him, at I simply told a fib to get that credibility. Who knows – not you, that’s for sure.

                      Now, it can be funny when commenters tell conflicting stories about themselves – claims to live in difference places, or have degrees in everything from economics to rocket science to medicine. But that’s all it is. Everything else are just snowflakes landing on a discussion and then melting, leaving nothing of substance.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      29 December 2018 at 9:09 pm

                      But it’s all pointless anyway, because nothing about a commenter is verified. I can say my father is dead, and maybe that gives me some cache to talk about grief and loss.

                      Well, unlike RWNJs that have to lie because reality doesn’t suit their beliefs, I simply don’t lie.

                      Online or face to face.

                      But I have absolutely no understanding of Waitakere, because I’ve never even been there.?

                      It’s really no different from anywhere else.

                      Maybe an immigrant without our local baggage can in fact have a deeper understanding of “New Zealand” than we do, noticing the little conceits and quirks that are the water we swim in as fish.

                      I’m not an immigrant – merely autistic and that means that I live outside of the norm.

                      Looking in.

                      And I’m horribly logical about it.

                    • McFlock …
                      29 December 2018 at 9:32 pm

                      Except that there’s nothing in this subthread about you, so it’s a non sequiter to talk about yourself.

                      But let’s say it is about you. Maybe you never lie. Nobody here knows that. You are frequently mistaken about small facts that tend to invalidate your cunning plans. Maybe that’s just because you have an inflated opinion of yourself so assume your assumptions are equivalent to facts. If it concerns your argument, it should probably be verifiable. If it’s about yourself, it’s not hugely relevant to any discussion. Mildly interesting, maybe, but completely unverifiable for most intents and purposes. So maybe you never lie in fact to face conversations. So what?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    29 December 2018 at 9:04 pm

                    So was I.

                    In fact, a close friend of mine throughout childhood was someone who was born two days earlier in the same hospital.

                    There is absolutely no chance that they would vote for anyone but National.

                • Sacha …
                  29 December 2018 at 2:56 pm

                  “Make him try harder so it becomes obvious who is trolling whom.”

                  A great general principle, thanks.
                  Far too easy for the righties to get a rise here.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  29 December 2018 at 9:02 pm

                  Given that it’s all conjecture anyway, why bother keep bringing it up?

                  Good question. Why would someone, who’s obviously follows the belief that the Left are envious of the rich, always bring up how rich they are?

                  There is absolutely no chance that they would vote for anyone but National.

                  • McFlock …
                    29 December 2018 at 9:38 pm

                    Hardly “always”. To me, James just seems to like watching people with neither a sense of humour nor proportionality jump up and down.

            • One Two 2.2.1.1.1.2
              29 December 2018 at 3:00 pm

              Posting in good faith seems to not be an issue these days…

              James clearly does not post in good faith…that is abundantly clear…

              Watching bans get distributed to others , for less IMO while James plays ‘victim’, is a low point among many for this site…

              James openly posts his personal details regarding his family and preferences as an agitator to rub others up the wrong way…yes others let that happen…but why enable the root cause…

              Playing his make believe family life, which he openly shares back to Jmaes is not the problem this site faces, TRP…

              It’s that James and ilk are enabled…empowered on this site…quite why is up for debate…

          • Muttonbird 2.2.1.1.2
            29 December 2018 at 1:10 pm

            Well, you did offer these details on this forum in your arguments against socially conscious thought and policy. I think they are fair game because of that.

            • Enough 2.2.1.1.2.1
              29 December 2018 at 3:06 pm

              “James” is unlikely to be a real individual. More likely a troll-construct.

              • Muttonbird …
                29 December 2018 at 3:18 pm

                Well, despite apparently owning one he spells bach, “batch” which isn’t the Kiwi way. 😆

                • David Mac …
                  29 December 2018 at 6:00 pm

                  I thought it was interesting why baches are called baches.

                  In the past young men attempting to establish themselves settled for the most humble of abodes and directed their energies into making a living.

                  Upon meeting the woman they chose to create a family with they heard the words ‘There is no way I’m living in that shanty!’

                  Bach is a shortened version of bachelor.

                • AB …
                  29 December 2018 at 9:35 pm

                  Perhaps he owns many baches that are very similar, like scones?

              • Muttonbird …
                29 December 2018 at 3:22 pm

                Sorry Enough, I did reply but it has been censored. ☹️

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1.2.2
              29 December 2018 at 10:29 pm

              Yes, he uses them as excuses for injustice.

          • Gabby 2.2.1.1.3
            29 December 2018 at 4:08 pm

            Sharded’s not a verb jimby, did you mean shatted?

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2
        29 December 2018 at 8:55 pm

        It’s not a question of skin colour or of names but if we can support them on the limited resources that we have.

        I find it amusing that a RWNJ, who is most likely to say that we must live within our means will then demand that we live outside our means. To live beyond what is physically available.

        To maintain capitalism.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.3
      29 December 2018 at 8:47 pm

      Will all our resident xenophobes and racists be complaining about this?

      Your problems, like fuckwits, is that you believe that we can support all those that decide to come here.

      We cannot.

      That is simply reality.

      Now, if you were the prosper who looks after the environment as you portray youself to be then the first question you would be asking is: Given present technological constraints, how many people can NZ support?

      The most important point being that we cannot support unlimited immigration.

      That’s a physical impossibility that no amount of whinging from you can ever displace.

      It’s not xenophobic to say that we cannot support any more people.

      In fact, given your support to protect the environment, if you were taking into account actual physical realities, you’d be saying the same.

      • David Mac 2.3.1
        29 December 2018 at 9:12 pm

        Geez I can’t keep up with you Draco, aren’t we living in a swirling neoliberal cesspit? What the hell do you care if other suckers want to come and live under the constant persecution we all suffer from….We’ve got it pretty good hey bro.

      • marty mars 2.3.2
        29 December 2018 at 9:15 pm

        “is that you believe that we can support all those that decide to come here” citation needed

        “We cannot” citation needed

        “The most important point being that we cannot support unlimited immigration.

        That’s a physical impossibility that no amount of whinging from you can ever displace.” Strawman argument – no one said UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION – this is dishonest arguing.

        “… to say that we cannot support any more people” citation needed

        See what you do there?

        You make stuff up, create bogus arguments and then win those arguments whilst continuing to not actually deal with ANY reality.

        You make bold statement after bold statement – all opinion and all fear based.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.2.1
          29 December 2018 at 9:36 pm

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

          And you, like Jenny, is ideologically biased against reality.

          • marty mars 2.3.2.1.1
            29 December 2018 at 9:43 pm

            Yes I am aware of this and that is not a citation – so basically you are making shit up.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.2.1.1.1
              29 December 2018 at 10:33 pm

              No, just applying logic – something that you fail to do.

              If the world has a carrying capacity then so does every nation.

              It’s a relatively inescapable logic.

              So, as you’re the one who thinks we should open up our borders without thought about these things, what is the carrying capacity of NZ?

              It really is up to you to prove that we can carry all the people that you think we should import.

        • Pat 2.3.2.2
          29 December 2018 at 9:39 pm

          how many people can NZ support MM?

          • marty mars 2.3.2.2.1
            29 December 2018 at 9:46 pm

            how long is the coastline of Aotearoa Pat?

            • Pat 2.3.2.2.1.1
              29 December 2018 at 9:48 pm

              that wasnt the question….have the courage of your convictions and put a number on it

              • McFlock …
                29 December 2018 at 9:59 pm

                Nah, because the number would always change according to technology.

                The real question is “how many net migrants can we absorb each year”?

                Then we can take a decent number of refugees and essential skills first and fill up the rest with economic migrants.

                Currently we’re on around 70k. Reasonable arguments have been made to lower that until neglected housing and other infrastructure has been upgraded. But the biggest problem are tourists, even though businesses love their money.

                • Pat …
                  29 December 2018 at 10:08 pm

                  technology will only impact at the margin…it certainly wont be factorial

                  • McFlock …
                    29 December 2018 at 10:20 pm

                    It’s already been “factorial”, ever since the first plough

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    29 December 2018 at 10:38 pm

                    Nah, because the number would always change according to technology.

                    True but what does present technology allow?

                    Because if technology may increase later we need to know what we can support now. This helps us to decide how many we can support later when our knowledge improves.

                    So, how many people can we presently support?

                    Then we can take a decent number of refugees and essential skills first and fill up the rest with economic migrants.

                    That is secondary to how many we can support given present knowledge.

                    Reasonable arguments have been made to lower that until neglected housing and other infrastructure has been upgraded.

                    The present number of immigrants should be halted until we know how many people that our nation can support.

                    So, how many people can our nation support?

                    It is up to you, and all others who support immigration, to show those of us who don’t.

              • marty mars …
                29 December 2018 at 10:01 pm

                It depends on what and how you measure it Pat – it isn’t a nice easy round number like you seem to be thinking. Perhaps go and read draco’s link to get an idea of the complexities and aspects to the calculation – you may be surprised.

                • Pat …
                  29 December 2018 at 10:06 pm

                  i already have a calculation and a number…the only thing that will surprise me is if you can provide one

                  • marty mars …
                    29 December 2018 at 10:12 pm

                    Wow I’d love to see your workings – must make the Drake equation seem a doddle. Probably just as tough guestimating some of those factors though eh.

                    • Pat …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:14 pm

                      so no number nor courage? I’ll give you a clue…weve already exceeded it

                    • marty mars …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:18 pm

                      prove it

                    • Pat …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:25 pm

                      what was the world population prior to the industrial revolution?…im assuming you can google

                    • Pat …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:25 pm

                      what was the world population prior to the industrial revolution?…im assuming you can google

                    • marty mars …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:29 pm

                      You said it – prove it. Please don’t ask me to prove YOUR assertion.

                    • Pat …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:35 pm

                      the repetition would appear to be a bug…and one im having trouble working round …however requiring you to access the data and doing the equation yourself allows you thye opportunity to dispute the method

                    • marty mars …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:37 pm

                      Okay, so you have got nothing. I thought as much.

                      Plus that bug is a shit alright.

                    • McFlock …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:41 pm

                      I’m just wondering why the criteria is “post-agrarian revolution but pre-industrial revolution”. I’m assuming the only permissable food production is crop rotation but hopefully with better healthcare?

                    • Pat …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:42 pm

                      oh dear MM…so unsure of yourself you wont even do some basic arithmetic…dissappointing

                    • marty mars …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:46 pm

                      Pat you had your big chance to homerun it but you faltered at the hurdle – what were you saying about courage again lol.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:48 pm

                      Okay, so you have got nothing. I thought as much.

                      No, he has a valid point and a valid number.

                      Prior to the industrial revolution there was about 500 million people sustainably supported.

                      We now have in excess of 7 billion.

                      You need to show, because it you argument, that the Earth can support more than 500 million sustainably.

                      As a subset, you need to show how many people that NZ can support sustainably.

                      I think five million is the limits for NZ and that one billion is the limits for the Earth as a while. This has, of course, come from many readings but here’s one.

                      So, how many people can NZ support sustainably?
                      How many people can the Earth support sustainably?

                    • marty mars …
                      29 December 2018 at 10:52 pm

                      He hasn’t given ANY numbers, ANY calculations, ANY evidence – yeah I can see why you love it cos that’s what YOU do.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  29 December 2018 at 10:42 pm

                  It depends on what and how you measure it Pat

                  No it doesn’t.

                  We have so much land. So much of that needs to be wild, So much needs to be farm.

                  What’s the absolute physical amounts?

                  Given those amounts, how many people can we support?

                  You’re one of the ones that we can simply import more and more people so it’s up to you to show that we can support them.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.3.3
        31 December 2018 at 8:52 am

        Draco T Bastard2.3

        29 December 2018 at 8:47 pm

        Will all our resident xenophobes and racists be complaining about this?

        Your problems, like fuckwits, is that you believe that we can support all those that decide to come here.

        We cannot.

        That is simplyreality…..

         

        ….It’s not xenophobic to say that we cannot support any more people.

        In fact, given your support to protect the environment, if you were taking into account actual physical realities, you’d be saying the same.

        “It’s not xenophobic to say that we cannot support any more people”,
        Draco T Bastard

        Hi Draco, don’t you mean, ‘any more Brown People’? Remember that we allow unlimited entry to White Majority Settler nation Australia?

        Your above statement is not factual, And if your statement is not factual – what is it, that motivates some people to believe this?

        My opinion is, that your opinion is deeply xenophobic. But unlike my opinion, your opinion, your surety that we cannot support any more people, is not backed up by fact.

        Let’s look at the raw data

        New Zealand Surface area – 267710 sq.Km

        New Zealand Population density, people per sq.Km, – 15

        That’s less than half the population density of Sub-Saharan Africa

        Sub-Sahran Africa Population density, people per sq.Km – 34.7

        But let’s be fair, Eh Draco? Let’s compare apples with apples. New Zealand, with two other First World countries with roughly the same surface area, and temperate climate, with a similar standard of living.

        United Kingdom Surface area – 243610 sq.Km

        United Kingdom Population density, people per sq.km – 271

        Surface area Japan, 364560 sq.Km

        Japan Population density, people per sq.Km – 336

        But maybe we should go further afield and look at the stats for some other countries.

        Let’s look for instance at the Netherlands with one of the highest population densities in the world.

        Netherlands Population density, people per sq.Km – 488

        The thing about the Netherlands that disproves your xenophobic trope, Draco, is that despite it’s high population density the Netherlands has one of the highest living standards in the world.

        Continuing:-

        USA Population density, people per sq.Km – 33.21

        China Population density, people per sq.Km – 145

        And you have the gall to tell me, “….we cannot 

        May I politely suggest that you seriously need to question your surety, that immigration controls are not xenophobic.

        Maybe, like Solkta, you believe we have the right to impose our borders on the region because the Polynesians were/are savage cannibals.

        https://thestandard.org.nz/nutjobs-and-the-un-global-migration-pact/#comment-1559880

        Or Dave B who like Donald Trump believes that immigrants are criminals.

        And now for the real outlier, that other White Majority settler nation, arguably even more racist and xenophobic than New Zealand.

        Australia Population density, people per sq.Km – 3.1

        Saying that, of course a lot of Australia, is inhospitable desert, but even then…..

        To end on a personal note.

        On the last day of the year let’s make a resolution to begin the new year by trying not to refer to people with views different to ours as “fuckwits”

        Imagine

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3.1
          31 December 2018 at 10:17 am

          Hi Draco, don’t you mean, ‘any more Brown People’?

          No I don’t and, as far as I know, we also allow unlimited entry to brown Australians.

          Your above statement is not factual

          Yes it is. There are limits and we don’t know what they are so the best option is to prevent excess now.

          But let’s be fair, Eh Draco? Let’s compare apples with apples. New Zealand, with two other First World countries with roughly the same surface area, and temperate climate, with a similar standard of living.

          You’re making the assumption that those countries aren’t over-populated and can sustainably maintain that population level indefinitely. Consider that the US is over-populated at a population density less than both of those.

          May I politely suggest that you seriously need to question your surety, that immigration controls are not xenophobic.

          May I politely tell you to get yourself before spouting off your ignorance?

          The world is over-populated. This is fact. As a subset every country has it’s own carrying capacity that many, all the ones you listed as a matter of fact, have already exceeded.

          • Jenny - How to get there? 2.3.3.1.1
            31 December 2018 at 6:16 pm

            Too bad, Draco, that you can’t bring any facts to back up your “fact” that the world is overpopulated.

            You are just regurgitating ignorant Right Wing rubbish. (the dog whistle always being, there are too many brown people in the world).

            There are many erudite fact based studies that the world is not over-populated.

            http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160311-how-many-people-can-our-planet-really-support.

            https://www.fastcompany.com/3016331/think-the-world-is-crowded-you-could-fit-the-entire-human-race-in-new-zealand

            Europe needs many more babies to avert a population disaster
            “Across Europe birth rates are tumbling. The net effect is a ‘perfect demographic storm’ that will imperil economic growth across the continent”

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3.1.1.1
              31 December 2018 at 8:33 pm

              Too bad, Draco, that you can’t bring any facts to back up your “fact” that the world is overpopulated.

              https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33133712

              So, we can all live like Ugandans or we can reduce the population of the Earth. What we can’t do is maintain a living standard for everyone equivalent to the First World while maintaining or expanding that population.

              That’s physical reality no matter how much you dislike it.

          • Jenny - How to get there? 2.3.3.1.2
            31 December 2018 at 6:20 pm

            Consider that the US is over-populated……

            Drako T Bastard

            Surely you are joking.

            If the obscure organisation contained in the link you supplied, thinks that the US is overpopulated at 33.21 people per sq.Km, I wonder what they think of the Netherlands at 448 people per sq.Km. 

            It may interest them, and you, to know that the Netherlands, are a major food exporter. (Sort’a makes a nonsense of your claim that “the US is overpopulated”, or beyond its “carrying capacity”  Don’t you think?)

            The Netherlands is the second-largest agricultural exporter after US

            Dutch News, Business, January 19, 2018

            …Germany is the most important export market for Dutch farm products, accounting  for sales of €23.4bn in 2017, or roughly 25% of total exports.  At the same time, the Netherlands is Germany’s most important agricultural export market, the CBS said. After Germany, the biggest markers are Belgium (€10.4bn), Britain (€8.6bn) and France (€8bn). While Dutch exports to Belgium and France increased, they actually fell to Britain probably because of a weaker pound sterling related to Brexit, the CBS said.

            :

            Draco, in my opinion, you are just mindlessly regurgitating misanthropic rubbish to suit your anti-immigrant prejudices. (the dog whistle being, not that there are too many people in the world, but that there are too many brown people in the world).

            How many people can our planet really support
            “We do not know if today’s population of seven billion is remotely sustainable, or what the limit is”

            Vivien Cumming – BBC, March 14, 2016.

            ….

            You often hear people citing overpopulation as the single biggest threat to the Earth. But can we really single out population growth in this way? Are there really too many people on our planet?

            It is clear to all of us that the planet is not expanding. There is only so much space on Earth, not to mention only so many resources – food, water and energy – that can support a human population. So a growing human population must pose some kind of a threat to the wellbeing of planet Earth, mustn’t it?

            Not necessarily……

            …….”It is not the number of people on the planet that is the issue – but the number of consumers and the scale and nature of their consumption,” says David Satterthwaite, a senior fellow at the International Institute for Environment and Development in London. He quotes Gandhi: “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.”…..

            As it stands now, though, the world’s population is over 7.3 billion.According to United Nations predictionsit could reach 9.7 billion people by 2050, and over 11 billion by 2100.

            Population growth has been so rapid that there is no real precedent we can turn to for clues about the possible consequences. In other words, while the planet might hold over 11 billion people by the end of the century, our current level of knowledge does not allow us to predict whether such a large population is sustainable, simply because it has never happened before.

            We can get clues, though, by considering where population growth is expected to be strongest in the years ahead. Satterthwaite says that most of the growth over the next two decades is predicted to be in urban centres in what are currently low and middle-income countries.

            On the face of it, the global impact of adding several billion people to these urban centres might be surprisingly small. This is because urbanites in low- and middle-income countries have historically consumed little.

            The emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases give us a good indication of how high consumption is in a city.

            “We know of cities in low-income nations that emit less than one tonne CO2-equivalent per person per year,” says Satterthwaite. “Cities in high-income nations [can] have six to 30 tonnes CO2-equivalent per person per year.”

            Citizens of more affluent nations leave a much greater footprint on our planet than people living in poorer countries – although there are exceptions. Copenhagen is the capital of a high-income nation – Denmark – while Porto Alegre is in upper-middle-income Brazil. Living standards are high in both cities, yet per capita emissions are relatively low…..

            …..So a world with a human population of 11 billion might put comparatively little extra strain on our planet’s resources. But the world is changing. Low-income urban centres may not continue on low-carbon development trajectories.

            The real concern would be if the people living in these areas decided to demand the lifestyles and consumption rates currently considered normal in high-income nations; something many would argue is only fair. If they do, the impact of urban population growth could be much larger.

            This fits with a general pattern that has played out over the past century or so, explainsWill Steffen, an emeritus professor with the Fenner School of Environment and Society at the Australian National University. It is not the rise in population by itself that is the problem, but rather the even more rapid rise in global consumption (which of course is unevenly distributed).

            This leads to an uncomfortable implication: people living in high-income nations must play their part if the world is to sustain a large human population. Only when wealthier groups are prepared to adopt low-carbon lifestyles, and to permit their governments to support such a seemingly unpopular move, will we reduce the pressure on global climate, resource and waste issues……

            Half of all US food produce is thrown away, new research suggests

            “The demand for ‘perfect’ fruit and veg means much is discarded, damaging the climate and leaving people hungry”

            Vast quantities of fresh produce grown in the US are left in the field to rot, fed to livestock or hauled directly from the field to landfill, because of unrealistic and unyielding cosmetic standards, according to official data and interviews with dozens of farmers, packers, truckers, researchers, campaigners and government officials.

            From the fields and orchards of California to the population centres of the east coast, farmers and others on the food distribution chain say high-value and nutritious food is being sacrificed to retailers’ demand for unattainable perfection.

            “It’s all about blemish-free produce,” says Jay Johnson, who ships fresh fruit and vegetables from North Carolina and central Florida. “What happens in our business today is that it is either perfect, or it gets rejected. It is perfect to them, or they turn it down. And then you are stuck.”….

             

            Think The World Is Crowded? You Could Fit The Entire Human Race In New Zealand

            :World overpopulation wouldn’t be such a big problem (space-wise, at least) if everyone lived as densely as they do in South Korea or New Jersey.”
            Sydney Brownstone – 

            The UN has predicted that the world population will reach 9.6 billion by 2050–nearly 2.5 billion more people on Earth than we have at the moment. In 2013,the annual dayin which humanity consumes more natural resources than the planet is capable of recovering from in a year came early, once again. Overpopulation also just happens to be one of those words that immediately triggers images of the apocalypse, despite the fact that nothing in human existence seems more routine than birthing a child.

            But before anyone takes Rush Limbaugh’s advice that environmentalists ought to save the planet by committing suicide, let’s take a step back and unpack what “overpopulation” really means. The good people atWait But Whyhave come out with another set of dazzling infographics (we first saw them when they madethis shocking piece about the death tolls of major disasters) that deal with rethinking population density and space. For example, if we lived at the density that people live in Manhattan, the entire global population could fit in New Zealand:

            Or, look at the possibilities if we lived as they do in Bangladesh and New Jersey:

            “Space is certainly not the problem,” one of the creators of Wait But Why (who prefers to remain anonymous) tells me. “I’m walking right now through Manhattan. It’s crowded, but it’s not that crowded,” he adds. “The point is when we talk about all the issues we have with growing population, the thing that’s scary about that is not space, it’s of course resources, and the distribution of resources.”

            In some ways, the infographics are mildly comforting: When we talk about overpopulation, the implication should be that we’re talking about systems of consuming and producing waste that desperately need to be overhauled and made efficient. It’s a big task, but not completely dire…..

            Europe needs many more babies to avert a population disaster
            “Across Europe birth rates are tumbling. The net effect is a ‘perfect demographic storm’ that will imperil economic growth across the continent”

            Ashifa Kassam – Madrid,

            Rosie Scammell – Rome,

            Kate Connolly – Berlin,

            Richard Orange – Malmö,

            Kim Willsher – Paris,

            Rebecca Ratcliffe – London

            The Guardian, August 15, 2018

            ……In Germany last week there was a rare piece of good news. Germany’s birthrate was found to be higher than it has been for 13 years, thanks to the 33,000, or 4.8%, more babies born last year than in 2013. Nevertheless, the scale of the demographic crisis Europe’s largest economy faces has finally hit home. For decades there have been far more deaths (last year 153,000 more) than births in Germany. Those women who do give birth are bearing relatively few (on average 1.4) children. Experts say to keep the population at its current rate, that would need to rise to just over two…….

            …..In order to offset this shortage, Germany needs to welcome an average of 533,000 immigrants every year, which perhaps gives context to the estimate that 800,000 refugees are due to come to Germany this year.

            Only Scandinavia appears to be weathering the demographic storm with any success, partly thanks to generous parental leave systems, stable economies, and, in the cases of Sweden and Norway, high net immigration…….

            ……For Swedes, improving the demographic profile is advanced as one of the most powerful arguments in favour of immigration. At a meeting in Brussels in June, Prime Minister Stefan Löfven enjoined other European countries follow his country’s example.

            “I am not going to sweep under the carpet the fact that it’s a major challenge at the moment,” he said of Sweden’s high levels of asylum applications. “But it is also an asset. We must recognise that if we do not do this now, we are going to have a gigantic problem in a few years.”

            Immigration also props up the fertility rate and Britain and France have received a similar fillip to its population growth as a result…..

            .

            To sum up; We have a societal problem, not an overpopulation problem, global inequality, resource theft, post colonial and neo-colonial enslavement of the Third World by the First World. division and redivision, competition, greed, war. Part of this is the artificial division of the world into cantons. Our global civilisation is organised in such a way, as to benefit the few, at the expense of the majority.

            We (generally the West) go around the world creating inequality. When people try to escape this inequality, we act to punish them very severely. 

            As the above link shows, as societies become richer – as poor people, especially women, become more empowered, population growth slows and even reverses.

            Global inequality not overpopulation  is the problem. If overpopulation was a problem, it is as a symptom rather than as a cause.

            And let’s not forget Draco that you brought up this overpopulation argument to justify your anti-immigrant stance. If there was a problem with overpopulation, don’t you think that the humane thing to do would be to  allow people to move to areas with less overcrowding.

            IMHO Draco, your whole overpopulation justification for your anti-immigrant stance, is inhumane, xenophobic, and misanthropic, targeting as if does the Third World immigrant fleeing persecution, poverty and war. And more recently, climate change, it is also racist.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3.1.2.1
              31 December 2018 at 8:27 pm

              Surely you are joking.

              No, I’m not.

              It may interest them, and you, to know that the Netherlands, are a major food exporter.

              Being able to produce food is not the same as living sustainably which is the mistake you and many others are making.

              Climate change is the result of us not living sustainably.

              ”It is not the number of people on the planet that is the issue – but the number of consumers and the scale and nature of their consumption,” says David Satterthwaite, a senior fellow at the International Institute for Environment and Development in London.

              Another idiot not understanding how cycles work.

              The number of people a country can sustain is limited by the time it takes for the natural environment to turn human waste into fertiliser.

              That is the hard limit of a nation’s carrying capacity. We’ve temporarily gone above that by using fossil fuels to produce artificial fertilisers but it is only temporary.

              He quotes Gandhi: “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.”

              Ghandi and him are wrong. It’s people trying to justify the status quo and nothing more.

              World overpopulation wouldn’t be such a big problem (space-wise, at least) if everyone lived as densely as they do in South Korea or New Jersey

              And this is mistaking the actual cause of over-population. It’s not space that’s the problem but maintaining the natural services of the environment.

              Global inequality not overpopulation is the problem.

              They are both problems.

              “Across Europe birth rates are tumbling. The net effect is a ‘perfect demographic storm’ that will imperil economic growth across the continent”

              Yeah, it’s called the Baby Boom. Been known about for around 50 years. It’s why both National and Labour have been importing so many people in to NZ despite the fact that it’s not going to help. It’s more ignorance trying to keep the status quo, which requires infinite growth of the human population, going.

              IMHO Draco, your whole overpopulation justification for your anti-immigrant stance, is inhumane, xenophobic, and misanthropic, targeting as if does the Third World immigrant fleeing persecution, poverty and war.

              Your opinion is wrong and it seems that you only have it because I’ve successfully pointed out that you’re talking out your arse. Spouting ignorance and BS to try and justify your delusional position.

            • Pat 2.3.3.1.2.2
              31 December 2018 at 8:40 pm

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZCm2QQZVYk

              The most important video you will ever watch.

  3. Pat 3
    29 December 2018 at 12:24 pm

    A tale that demonstrates the power of the status quo and how difficult it will be to move.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/12/27/106218/culture-of-silence-or-a-cover-up

    • greywarshark 3.1
      29 December 2018 at 9:13 pm

      That is a read and a half Pat. A kick in the guts reading about the way that our semi-government goes about not helping small business being grown by NZ. And how it views the responsibility to inform the public about its moves, in this democracy.

      I followed up info for Geoff Gwyn, a leader at MPI. It is below.

      Director: Joint Border Management System
      Ministry for Primary Industries
      March 2013 – May 2014 1 year 3 months
      Wellington, New Zealand

      Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI)
      Manager Central and South, Border Operations, MPI
      Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI)
      December 2011 – March 2013 1 year 4 months
      Wellington, New Zealand

      NZ Police
      Inspector
      NZ Police
      April 1985 – May 2010 25 years 2 months

      Education
      Tawa College
      1978 – 1982

      Massey University
      Massey University
      Master of Arts – MA

      NZ Defence Force Staff College
      2007 – Present
      https://nz.linkedin.com/in/geoff-gwyn-428aab7b

      That is a pretty good upward-moving trajectory. He gets a Master of Arts at Massey, not a science degree. He goes into the police for 25 years and gets to Inspector. Then he starts another career, with MPI as Manager Border Security for central region for just over one year, then is made Director for another year,
      then becomes Chairman for government nationwide dealing with borders, and so on. Seems easy peasy. He wouldn’t want to spoil his shiny record.

      • Pat 3.1.1
        29 December 2018 at 9:21 pm

        Yes GWS it is yet another example of the cosy relationship between big business and those that supposedly protect the interest of the wider public…and the value placed on the interests of joe public….and they wonder why populism, go figure

        Fuckwits is too kind.

  4. millsy 4
    29 December 2018 at 12:53 pm

    National is once again whining about the proposed changes to edcuation taking away power from parents. Even though the last government brought charter schools, where parents had absolutely no input into the running of those places, and school PPP’s, which outsourced all the school property to a private company.

    • james 5.1
      29 December 2018 at 4:30 pm

      Lots of people can have a drink or two and not get drunk.

      Wouldnt be suprised if Winny supports this.

      • Muttonbird 5.1.1
        29 December 2018 at 5:53 pm

        You don’t say.

        Rural races would be problematic because without licensing which the race courses are apparently having trouble gaining there is no oversight on what people drink and how much they eat. That’s what licensing does – protect people. Also in rural areas I expect there to be difficulty getting home after drinking and we know crash rates on rural roads are terrible. The police and emergency services are rightly concerned.

        Not you though. 👎

        And yes, Peters has spoken about this before. Bishop knows this and is simply using the issue to manufacture division in the government, not for the good people of rural New Zealand.

        • James 5.1.1.1
          29 December 2018 at 7:32 pm

          “And yes, Peters has spoken about this before. Bishop knows this and is simply using the issue to manufacture division in the government, not for the good people of rural New Zealand.”

          Really – and how do you know this ?

          Do you think NZ First are willing to do such harm to the rural community?

        • James 5.1.1.2
          29 December 2018 at 7:41 pm

          “ there is no oversight on what people drink and how much they eat. That’s what licensing does – protect people”

          So now you want to licence how much people can eat?

          Are organic and non organic foods licences at different rates?

          Are lentils licenced as well? Do vegans get extra licence points to make up for not eating meat dishes?

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.2.1
            29 December 2018 at 8:05 pm

            It’s called Argumentum ad absurdum and fits you like a glove.

          • Muttonbird 5.1.1.2.2
            29 December 2018 at 8:11 pm

            Clearly you know nothing about liquor licensing. To get a licence to serve alcohol you must be able to provide food and have trained managers and staff. Some of these rural tracks are obviously struggling to meet the liquor licensing requirements and if they can’t manage the safety of their punters with respect to alcohol consumption on a hot day then BYO is no go. This seems obvious.

            I should have stopped at, “Clearly you know nothing”.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.3
            29 December 2018 at 9:26 pm

            So now you want to licence how much people can eat?

            There’s been a limit in place for decades. Paraphrased:

            No pub (or facsimile thereof) may serve a drunk customer.

            So now you want to licence how much people can eat?

            No, just how much they can drink – as has been standard practice for decades.

  6. Jenny - How to get there? 6
    29 December 2018 at 5:01 pm

    Syria’s Last Bastion of Freedom
    Anand Gopal – New Yorker, December 10, 2018

    One evening that March, Hossein and five friends met at his parents’ home to discuss politics. They talked about a Muslim Brotherhood uprising in Syria in the eighties, and the regime’s vicious response, which left thousands dead. “We knew very well that if we wanted to stand against the regime the bill would be high,” he told me. But the recent protests in Daraa had been about basic democratic reforms, not overthrowing the government, and Hossein felt confident that Assad would feel constrained by the gaze of the international community and by social media, which could broadcast abuses.

    And it could have worked out that way; except, right from the earliest days, the Western Liberal Left, instead of standing with the Syrian people, threw their lot in with the regime instead.
    The suffering of the people and genocide carried out against them by the regime was ignored, and minimised, social media was swamped with a sea of regime propaganda and slander, repeated and amplified by their embedded Western puppets. All this was eagerly swallowed and reposted by both the fascist Right and the gullible Left.

    In the end, the only ones to give any material aid to the Syrian people were the demented fundamentalist billionaire princes of Saudi Arabia.

    If Saraqib did represent the soul of the revolution, as Hossein believed, then it also suggested what Syria might be like today had the democratic revolutionaries received more international solidarity, had they been more united, and had they been more effective at collecting taxes. Perhaps they could have outmaneuvered the fundamentalists in the battle for hearts and minds. Or perhaps no democratic revolution could survive interventions on the scale of those staged by Russia and the Gulf states.

    The writing is on the wall for Saraqib and Idlib province. The Saudis, the Americans, the Turks, and the Regime and their Russian allies, have all come to terms. The US will abandon their former Kurdish allies to the regime, which will keep Turkey happy. In exchange Turkey will let the regime and Russia conduct their genocide in Idlib.
    A victorious Russia and the regime will agree to isolate and crowd out the Iranians and corral Hezbollah, which will also keep the Us and their Zionist allies happy.

    Already international relations are being normalised with the Assad regime. It has begun with a few pro-Western autocratic regimes, but it will not be long before the capitals of the West follow suit.

    It will be like it all never happened.

  7. Jenny - How to get there? 7
    29 December 2018 at 5:20 pm

    Trump leaves Syria: On ‘regime change’ and other tall stories
    Michael Karadjis – December 21, 2018

    Trump’s sudden decision to get US forces out of Syria is a green-light to both Syrian tyrant Bashar Assad and Turkish ruler Erdogan to move into the northeastern part of Syria currently controlled by the (until now) US-backed, Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), and of course also a nod towards the big ally of both Assad and Erdogan, Trump’s friends in Russia, who of course praised Trump’s decision. Of course, a US betrayal of its Kurdish allies was always a matter of time……

    • One Two 7.1
      29 December 2018 at 7:13 pm

      It is unlikely to be what it appears at face value, Jenny…it certainly won’t be because they give a toss about human life…

      Perhaps they’re just shifting the illegally posted war machine to another location and leaving the mercs / isis to manage themselves…

      Breaking international law won’t have featured in any ddecions, you can be sure of that…

      Perhaps Trump will instruct Israel to hand back The Golan Heights….

    • DJ Ward 7.2
      30 December 2018 at 4:00 pm

      The Kurds were not at war with the Assad regime prior to the Arab Spring.

      The have already invited the Syrian army into some of the territory it holds to protect them from there actual enemy, the Turks. They even stated the Syrian regime is the legitimate ruler of the Sryian Kurd territory.

      The international community will not accept a Turkish invasion of The Kurdish areas of Syria. If the Syrian Kurds are stupid and attack Turkish territory then reprisals would be expected to happen.

  8. marty mars 8
    29 December 2018 at 7:43 pm

    The putrid poisoned pimple is just a low grade liar.

    Trump told the servicemen and women he had secured a 10 per cent pay rise on their behalf — and claimed it was their first raise in more than a decade.

    “You protect us. We are always going to protect you. And you just saw that, ’cause you just got one of the biggest pay raises you’ve ever received,” Trump said.

    “You haven’t gotten one in more than 10 years. More than 10 years. And we got you a big one. I got you a big one. I got you a big one.

    “They had plenty of people that came up, they said, ‘You know, we could make it smaller. We could make it 3 per cent, we could make it 2 per cent, we could make it 4 per cent.

    “I said, ‘No. Make it 10 per cent. Make it more than 10 per cent.’ Cause it’s been a long time, it’s been more than 10 years. Been more than 10 years, that’s a long time.”

    There was only one problem — it was all false.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12183644

    ffs – how long is this shit going on for???

    • Draco T Bastard 8.1
      29 December 2018 at 9:33 pm

      For as long as people accept outright lies rather than locking up the liars.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 8.2
      30 December 2018 at 2:35 am

      World class cannon fodder.

      If my boss told me a lie that he was giving me a 10 per cent pay rise, I would be doing my darndest to hold him to it.

      The US soldiers stationed in Iraq rapturously cheering, and posing for selfies with the President aren’t calling him out on this lie?

      They must be dumber than a sack full of hammers.

    • DJ Ward 8.3
      30 December 2018 at 3:39 pm

      https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Basic-Pay/AnnualPayRaise/

      The next rise is 2.6% and has just been signed off. Is the biggest rise in 9 years.
      Technically it’s 10% bigger than the pay rise they would have got.

      So no Trump didn’t lie. The MSM media is the Fake News bullshiters and misrepresenters.

      If you think the troops didn’t know exactly what he meant your deluded.

      Diagnoses: TDS.

      Treatment: 1hour of RT, exposing the MSM, and Democrates lies.

      • Muttonbird 8.3.1
        30 December 2018 at 3:45 pm

        Is that how the extreme right are spinning this? 🤣

        • DJ Ward 8.3.1.1
          30 December 2018 at 4:02 pm

          State how he didn’t make the pay rise 10% bigger.
          I can see how the left spun it.

          It’s a fact Morrissey. The pay rise is 10% bigger. No spin.

          • Muttonbird 8.3.1.1.1
            30 December 2018 at 5:24 pm

            You’re claiming he was talking about a 10% increase on the annual increase. This is 0.2% of say USD30K. About a dollar a week – gee no wonder they were happy. 😉

          • te reo putake 8.3.1.1.2
            30 December 2018 at 5:55 pm

            “The pay rise is 10% bigger. No spin.”

            You’re career as a union advocate would be brief, but memorable, DJ!

            “Comrades, lets bring this meeting to order. I’m here to report that I’ve negotiated a 10% pay rise. Yes, brothers and sisters, they offered us fuck all and I’ve managed to talk them up to fuck all, plus 10%.

            That’s a whopping ten percent more fuck all, comrades!

            All those in favour?”

            • DJ Ward 8.3.1.1.2.1
              30 December 2018 at 6:52 pm

              Yes it is a bit of a joke overall just getting a tiny extra 0.2% except overall it’s a big total. I was just making the point how MSM took his comment and presented it differently. They would have known just as the solders exactly what he meant by his 10% comment. So the lesson for Trump is to qualify everything he says or MSM will spin it to make him look bad, nowingly misrepresenting his comment as they have done on countless other occasions.

              If I was in a union and my rep said they only wanted to give you 2.4% (inflation) but he/she managed to talk them into 2.6% I would be happy with my rep. It’s a, in real terms a pay rise.

              • te reo putake …
                30 December 2018 at 7:28 pm

                “They would have known just as the solders exactly what he meant by his 10% comment.”

                This is where your argument falls down. In my example union rep Ward spelt out the maths of the rise, admitting it was only 10% more on the base. Trump did no such thing. He repeatedly said 10% over and over again. So how would the troops in front of him know it was a qualified 10% that was really worth 0.26%?

                The simple truth is they had no way to know. Neither did anyone else in the room, apparently.

                There is also the possibility that Trump is so stupid, he didn’t realise it was just ten percent more on the base offer and genuinely believed it was a straight 10% rise. Bear in mind he’s a serial bankrupt, so accountancy isn’t his strong suit.

                • te reo putake …
                  30 December 2018 at 8:23 pm

                  Correction. Trump’s 10% is actually 0.2364 extra. That’s 2.364 plus 0.2364, making a total of 2.6%. Alternatively, it went from 2.4% to $2.60% a change of 8%, not ten. Or, to put in real life terms, just over a dollar a week more. The buck stops here!

                • Andre …
                  30 December 2018 at 9:06 pm

                  There’s ample evidence that Jabba the Drumpf just says whatever is going to make him feel good in the moment, without the slightest care about whether it bears any relationship to reality. But if we really wanted to make the unwarranted assumption he wanted his comment to be somehow related to facts, we could grant him that he did increase the total defense budget by around 10%. Which is a very different thing to pay increases of 10%, but he wouldn’t understand that.

                  https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-defense-20180212-story.html

              • Andre …
                30 December 2018 at 7:43 pm

                I have yet to find any organisation or anything, really, reporting the raise in the way you’re claiming. Articles in publications that appear aimed at active servicepeople are calling out the 10% claim as false. Here’s a sample:

                https://www.armytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/12/27/in-iraq-visit-trump-makes-false-claim-about-military-pay-again/

                • DJ Ward …
                  30 December 2018 at 8:37 pm

                  Well amongst thousands of people you will find people who know nothing about what Trump says he did. That’s how this version of Propaganda works. If all you hear is Trumps says he is giving us a 10 % pay rise, but the reality is he is lying to you, then you will believe the Propaganda. If you already knew the context of the comment, the propaganda of the MSM doesn’t work.

                  You might still thing Trump was silly and wrong in describing things as he has, but you wouldn’t say he was lying.

                  This years figure is 2.6%. What was this years original figure.
                  Until we know that we don’t know what Trump did.

                  The site you gave is nothing to do with the people involved in deciding the pay rise.

                  • Andre …
                    30 December 2018 at 8:55 pm

                    Seems pretty clear you didn’t bother to look at it, but joe90’s politifact link it spells it out:

                    “Military pay increases are determined by a statutory formula mandated by federal law – the raises must be equal to increases in the Employment Cost Index, or ECI.

                    According to an April 2017 report by the Congressional Research Service, “the president can specify an alternative pay adjustment that supersedes the automatic adjustment,” and “Congress can pass legislation to specify the annual pay raise, which would supersede the automatic adjustment and/or any presidential adjustment if it were enacted.”

                    In fact, while the 2.4 percent increase for 2018 was the largest in eight years, Trump actually requested 2.1 percent, “an amount below the automatic adjustment (of 2.4 percent) for 2018.” Congress ultimately overrode the administration’s proposal.

                    For 2019, the CRS reported that Trump requested 2.6 percent, which is a raise equal to the ECI, and one that the president’s 2019 budget called “modest.” ”

                    So last year Don the Con tried to stiff servicepeople with a raise lower than what was mandated, but congress overrode him to pay what is mandated. For this coming year the Dork from New York might have learned something and just went along with the mandated increase. And is now trying to con servicepeople into thinking he did something special for them. Seems to have worked on you, but I suspect most servicepeople will see through it.

                  • Andre …
                    31 December 2018 at 8:30 am

                    56% support in the military? Really? Where did you get that from? Just made it up on the spot, like your hero the rotting jack’o’lantern does?

                    Coz the first result that turned up when I went looking for actual facts was 44% approve, 43% disapprove, and a strong trend of dropping approval and rising disapproval. The next results I looked were similar. That trend is likely to continue with his ongoing shitty behaviour towards actual active duty real people, as opposed to the vague idea of a strong military he’s so infatuated by.

                    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/

      • Dennis Frank 8.3.2
        30 December 2018 at 4:08 pm

        I dug into this sufficiently to guess that the 10% figure derives from the increase from 2.4% a year ago to 2.6%. Actually, do the math & you’ll get 8.3%, right?

        So looks like Trump is trying to take credit for this increase and rounding it up, on the assumption that nobody does precision any more, so near enough is good enough. There’s an entire industry based on this kind of thinking (advertising).

        But I agree with the critique from the msm and Marty’s disgust. Bombast from the Trump won’t impress the non-clueless (opinion-leaders) so not good politics. Better for him to be a straight-shooter. More votes down that path.

        • DJ Ward 8.3.2.1
          30 December 2018 at 4:47 pm

          We don’t know the actual starting 2019 figure. But based on the fact I’ve seen no comments from those involved in the negotiations for the pay rise one can assume the 10% figure is correct. Think about it. He talks about the discussion as to it being a certain %. Hence it did happen, on his initiative and it is 10%.

          • Dennis Frank 8.3.2.1.1
            30 December 2018 at 5:09 pm

            “Pay raises beginning in 2007 are equal to the increase in the ECI. Pay raises may exceed these automatic levels if authorized and funded by Congress.”

            So you’re saying the Democrats agreed to this 10% increase? If so, how come the msm haven’t quoted any confirmation of that from them? All the reporters couldn’t be bothered doing their job?

            • DJ Ward 8.3.2.1.1.1
              30 December 2018 at 8:23 pm

              The Democrates don’t control anything yet. Assuming it’s in the part of the budget already voted in, then yes they have voted. It’s irrelevant if the Dems agree with it or not, but if it’s part of the budget the Dems are blocking in Congress with the 60% rule it’s likely not a good move by them.

              The 2.6% figure is not something that’s majicaly arrived post Trumps comment. They had it available to them all along.

              Are you saying MSM are so stupid as to not understand what Trump was referring to. They new what the 10% was about and chose to misrepresent it anyway. Or the TDS is so bad they didn’t bother to do a tiny bit of homework, but jumped into full Fake News Propaganda mode.

              • Dennis Frank …
                30 December 2018 at 8:45 pm

                No, just seeking clarification. Reality-aversion all round, currently. Competing spin is pointless in this context. Nobody knows the facts.

                I’m inclined to agree re msm laziness & fake news production, but we’ll have to wait for a news media CEO to tell his troops “Hey, enough of this kindergarten stuff, you turkeys. I expect a return to professional standards or you’re all fired! A bunch of drainlayers could do better, after some basic training. You wanna call my bluff??”

        • Andre 8.3.2.2
          30 December 2018 at 5:07 pm

          There’s an explanation of the process here:

          https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33446.pdf

          On page 12 there’s this wee nugget:

          “On August 31, 2017, President Trump sent a letter to congressional leaders invoking his authority under 37 U.S.C. 1009(e) to set the pay raise at 2.1%. However, Section 601 of the enacted version of the FY2018 NDAA (P.L. 115-91) specified the statutory formula increase (2.4%) would go into effect, superseding the President’s alternative adjustment.”

      • joe90 8.3.3
        30 December 2018 at 4:09 pm

        Pants on fire.

        During a holiday visit to troops stationed in Iraq, President Donald Trump bragged that he had secured them not only their first pay raise in over a decade, but “one of the biggest” ever.

        This is inaccurate and not the first time Trump has made false claims about annual military raises.

        His full remarks:

        “..you just got one of the biggest pay raises you’ve ever received … You haven’t gotten one in more than 10 years — more than 10 years. And we got you a big one. I got you a big one. I got you a big one.

        “They had plenty of people that came up. They said, ‘You know, we could make it smaller. We could make it 3 percent. We could make it 2 percent. We could make it 4 percent.’ I said, ‘No. Make it 10 percent. Make it more than 10 percent.’ Because it’s been a long time. It’s been more than 10 years. It’s been more than 10 years.”

        We fact-checked a similar claim from Trump in May, when he told military mothers and spouses at a White House event that he signed a bill to give service members a raise for the “first time in 10 years.” We rated it Pants on Fire.

        In reality, service members have received pay raises every year for more than three decades. The 2019 military pay increase of 2.6 percent is the largest in nine years, but it is not the “more than 10 percent” that Trump mentioned.

        https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/dec/27/donald-trump/trump-military-pay-increases-wrong-size-timing/

        btw, not content with fucking over the lives of more than 300K federal workers and their families, the POS has canned their pay rises, too.

        https://www.axios.com/trump-executive-order-freezes-federal-worker-pay-raise-20368531-713a-46f3-8d57-2f3f70197220.html?

        • DJ Ward 8.3.3.1
          30 December 2018 at 4:41 pm

          He is talking about above the formula rises. The military pay rise is benchmarked. This will be the first rise above that benchmark in a long time.

          If you understood Trump you would see why non military staff are not getting pay rises. He would prefer to cut there numbers. He however is very pro military, law enforcement. The non military staff is the swamp.

          He is not fucking over there lives. The House voted yes. The Senate (Schumer) is blocking the budget in the Senate. Trump is blocking nothing. Trump has not stopped the government, the Senate has. Some hypocrites that wanted a wall, now don’t want one because Trump wants it.

          • Andre 8.3.3.1.1
            30 December 2018 at 5:03 pm

            You didn’t check out joe90’s politifact link, did you?

            If you had and followed politifact’s sources you might have spotted this little gem:

            “On August 31, 2017, President Trump sent a letter to congressional leaders invoking his authority under 37 U.S.C. 1009(e) to set the pay raise at 2.1%. However, Section 601 of the enacted version of the FY2018 NDAA (P.L. 115-91) specified the statutory formula increase (2.4%) would go into effect, superseding the President’s alternative adjustment.”
            page 12 of https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33446.pdf

            So the satsuma shitgibbon tried to diddle the military on their mandated raise and had to be over-ridden by Congress, then he just bare-faced lied straight to servicepeople’s faces to falsely claim he got a better deal for them.

            I’m curious though, where’s your bullshit supply coming from? Direct from Huckabooboo, or Kellyanne? Hannity? Pootee?

  9. Pat 9
    30 December 2018 at 12:47 am

    “Put simply, if we are determined to maintain the economic status quo, we cannot possibly mitigate climate change, so we must turn to adapting to it. And if we opt for adaptation, they write, “we have to come to terms with the impossibility of material, social, and political progress as a universal promise: life is going to be worse for most people in the 21st century in all these dimensions. The political consequences of this are hard to predict.”

    The choice is radicalism today or disaster tomorrow, and from all signs, humanity is choosing the latter.”

    https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/12/28/18156094/conditional-optimism-climate-change

    Physics v economics?….its no contest

  10. Eco maori 10
    30 December 2018 at 9:26 am

    Kia ora Clint from R&R We have to respect our grandchildrens future that places respect and provide all the children of papatuanuku rights to a good life now and in the future and respect all life on papatuanuku more than the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
    Profits has to stop be made by sacrificing our grandchildrens full stop .
    The way the world is at the minute has to be totally changed that means abandoning most of the capitalist systems that runs the world.
    Ka kite ano

    • Eco maori 10.1
      30 December 2018 at 9:31 am

      I’m think R&R is a recording this week We have to ban sales of land to over sea people ka kite ano P.S what happened to the editing buttons

  11. Eco maori 11
    30 December 2018 at 10:05 am

    I see the sight has had a up grade it mite help with some of the stats to ??????????.
    Thanks for the hard work Iprent has put in maintaining and up grading thestandard Happy New year to all on this site and all the people around the world all the best the. Lefty,s keep up the good work we must never stop fighting for the good of ALL. The invention of the internet has the same effect,s as when fire was invented it has many positive effects but if you don’t respect it you one get burned
    .ka kite ano

  12. eco maori 12
    30 December 2018 at 11:25 am

    Here you go the carbon coalithion goverment of Australia is going to let black-throated finch go extint all for coal and money muppets
    Adani ‘conservation area’ for endangered finch sits on proposed Clive Palmer mine
    Exclusive: environmental group calls plan to protect black-throated finch an ‘elaborate hoax’ The bird is endangered and researchers have previously said the Adani Carmichael mine’s offset strategy would be “grossly inadequate” to protect it.
    Waratah Coal requires permission from pastoral land holders, including Adani, before being granted a mining lease. If there is a dispute, the matter goes before the Queensland land court.
    Carmel Flint from Lock the Gate, which has a history of advocating for pastoral land owners in conflict with miners, said the land court “would do little to stop Waratah Coal from mining the area”.
    “Mining licences trump pastoral leases completely under the law in Queensland,” Flint said. “As a result, this so-called ‘conservation area’ that Adani has allocated to the black-throated finch is utterly meaningless. It’s an elaborate hoax they’ve devised to enable them to start the Carmichael links below ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/30/adani-conservation-area-for-endangered-finch-sits-on-proposed-clive-palmer-mine

  13. eco maori 13
    30 December 2018 at 11:44 am

    Kia ora Clint from R&R Climate change is the biggest risk to human kind and yes we can make a diffence te Papatuanuku is like any living orgnasim . If one pumps just sugar in to a pepe /baby it will grow obeast and die same with Papatuanuku we are pumping to much bad gasses into her and she is warming fast . Life is finely balanced it does not take much to put life’s ballance out and that means collapes if we make changes in Aotearoa our neighbours will follow suit . trump wont be in power for ever and then changes for the better for our enviroment and our mokopunas future .Happy new years to you all ka kite ano P.S Eco Maori use to shear the aroha but I got ahi all the time . I strongly agree we need to restore the respect being cast out over the whole whano and IWI instead some just rip you off that’s not the old tangata whenua way.The old maori way was to respect everything

  14. eco maori 14
    30 December 2018 at 3:09 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  15. eco maori 15
    30 December 2018 at 5:50 pm

    Kia ora Te kaea Tewhare has a good way to help people who have slipped down there ladder of life whano shearing and gardening raising stock is good for the wairua and respecting all .
    Ka pai Ngahuia for getting funding to study the health benerfits of sailing a dubble hulled waka in Te taiwhiti.
    Its cool that there heaps of interest in books and all maori culture now .
    Nania has had a good year she is a good maori wahine leader and role modle for our young wahine. I Te puni korkiri need to work harder at providing a good service for maori. Ka kite ano

  16. eco maori 16
    30 December 2018 at 6:29 pm

    Kia ora Milisa from Newshub thats sad the church in Mount Eden Auckland has burnt down .
    People have to be careful and check the weather yes and if caught in a rip ride it will bring you out of the rip or back to shore.
    Ilegal weed just made the people grow weed up the east coast instead of becoming more industrious and growing food for export our tipuna were one of the most industrious in there time.
    People need to show respect and stop damaging things burning things is dumb.
    The Sudan people looks like they are not happy lets hope it all ends well for all of the people.
    June was quite funny she has given me a few sore faces condolences to her whano
    Shellys bay Tauranga is a gem of a place nice people and great views into the harbour Mike ka kite ano

  18. eco maori 18
    31 December 2018 at 1:03 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  19. eco maori 19
    31 December 2018 at 6:45 pm

    Kai ora Newshub looks like the fireworks show in Auckland will be a good show tonight with the Sky tower and Auckland harbour bridge synchronised.
    To everyone don’t drink to much tonight as one could end up in the——-.
    The Gisborne festival packs the city up with heaps of people and long lines in the shops.
    People love to come to the Aotearoa te whenua of Cream & Honey be save and happy on your travels to Queens Town.
    It has been a good year for wahine sport stars in Aotearoa in 2018 Ross Ka kite anoP.S hope the weather is going to be ka pai Ingrid happy new year

  20. eco maori 20
    31 December 2018 at 8:09 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  21. eco maori 21
    31 December 2018 at 8:35 pm

    Some Eco Maori Miusic for the minute

  22. eco maori 22
    31 December 2018 at 8:56 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  23. eco maori 23
    31 December 2018 at 9:02 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  24. eco maori 24
    31 December 2018 at 9:31 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  26. eco maori 26
    1 January 2019 at 10:49 am

    Happy healthy Positive New Year to Te Papatuanuku . The people of the world must make sure we dont lose Tanemahuta and Tangaroa’s beautiful creations all the tamariki of the world needed to be taught about how close a link humans have with mothernature and how finely ballanced life actualy is. Our World has been placed in just the correct place with marama moon the tilt of the axis how close we are to Ra Sun the planets all play a role that keeps like thriving on Earth. Change just one of those phenomen change the ballance and the world could be a frozen ball or a fire ball thats a fact . We must learn to respect all thing thy neighbours thee creatures thee earth all things
    The loss of biodiversity is a silent killer,” she told the Guardian. “It’s different from climate change, where people feel the impact in everyday life. With biodiversity, it is not so clear but by the time you feel what is happening, it may be too late.”
    The loss of biodiversity is a silent killer.
    Cristiana Pașca Palmer
    Pașca Palmer is executive secretary of the UN Convention on Biological Diversity – the world body responsible for maintaining the natural life support systems on which humanity depends.
    Its members – 195 states and the EU – will meet in Sharm el Sheikh, Egypt, this month to start discussions on a new framework for managing the world’s ecosystems and wildlife. This will kick off two years of frenetic negotiations, which Pașca Palmer hopes will culminate in an ambitious new global deal at the next conference in Beijing in 2020. Links below Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/03/stop-biodiversity-loss-or-we-could-face-our-own-extinction-warns-un

  27. eco maori 27
    1 January 2019 at 12:24 pm

    Kia ora when we protect our fisheries for the mokopuna’s we will be protect there welbeing as well. In the future with population incresses and other countrys fisheries collapsing the presures on our fisheries will be huge as the demand out strips supply of our seafood the price paid will shoot throught the roof then all the wrong people will target our fishes . Hence when we protect te fishes now in 20 years crayfish paua kina osters will be worth more than gold a sustainable managment system needs to guarantee our fisheries future. People will pay big money to come here and catch our fishes as well in the future .

    Fisheries New Zealand wants people to have their say on proposed rule changes for recreational fishers to assist with rebuilding the CRA2 fishery, which covers the Hauraki Gulf and Bay of Plenty.Fisheries New Zealand wants people to have their say on proposed rule changes for recreational fishers to assist with rebuilding the CRA2 fishery, which covers the Hauraki Gulf and Bay of Plenty.
    Manager of inshore fisheries Steve Halley says under the proposals the number of spiny rock lobsters recreational fishers can take per day would be reduced from six to three.
    “As part of the consultation, we also want feedback on introducing telson (tail fan) clipping as a tool to assist with minimising the illegal black market sales of rock lobster,” Mr Halley says.
    “The proposals follow the decision by the Minister of Fisheries to make a large reduction to the Total Allowable Catch, Total Allowable Commercial Catch and the overall allowance for recreational fishers for the fishery on 1 April 2018.
    “These proposed changes are designed to double the number of rock lobster in the area over the next 4-8 years. links below Ka kite ano P.S one of Eco maori favorite kaimoana gathers on this video

    http://business.scoop.co.nz/2018/11/07/have-your-say-on-rebuilding-the-cra2-fishery/#more-182186

  28. eco maori 28
    1 January 2019 at 4:08 pm

    This is were human’s future is exploring space ka pai Happy new year to Elon Musk and all this teams at Spacex and Tesla big changes coming in 2019 for the good of all.
    SpaceX’s Starship prototype proceeds at breakneck pace towards hop tests Well illustrated by recent drone photos of SpaceX’s up-and-coming Boca Chica, Texas facilities, dozens of SpaceXers and local contractors have congregated at the company’s Starship prototype work site over the last few weeks, progressing it from an empty tent and a collection of parts to a handful of large assemblies for what appears to be the first full-scale Starship hopper.
    Much like Falcon 9’s Grasshopper and F9R (Reusable) hop test articles, this ungainly Starship hopper – standing an impressive 9m (29.5 ft) wide and ~40m (131 ft) tall – appears all but guaranteed to become the first integrated BFR hardware to take flight, hopefully supporting a productive series of low-altitude hop tests from a roughly-prepared South Texas pad.links below ka kite ano

    https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-starship-hopper-prototype-rapid-work-pace-hop-tests/

  29. eco maori 29
    1 January 2019 at 5:50 pm

    Kia ora Tekaea Ka pai to Maori Kings Tuheitia Potatau goal of uniting te iwis at the 85 Poukai at Horahora marae newyear .
    Its good to see Meka Whaitiri tau toko the young wahine aspirations to become Mps Its good to see all the new maori soft ball stars starting to shine bright .
    Ka kite ano Happy new year to the Maori TV team P.S Our tipuna use waiata to record our histoy its is good to see our young music stars shining bright

  30. eco maori 30
    1 January 2019 at 6:34 pm

    Kia ora Tom from Newshub I read that there was not to much havoc in Aotearoa last night. Nine years of decision made on the base of making money and saving money well the effects of these choices are still rolling in . New Years eve celebration is for the youth. Good on Malasia for stopping taking our plastic waste we need to minermize the poision make laws to combat this problem that is growing bigger everyday. That campfire in California was a big deaster and there are hundreds of people living in tents condloences to them some one need to come up with inovative ways to solve there housing hardship I wonder they want to spend billions on a WALL when people need there housing go figure. Tawhirirmatea was good to us in Vags last night Ingrid

  31. eco maori 31
    1 January 2019 at 7:26 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.