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Open mike 30/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:55 am, January 30th, 2015 - 230 comments
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230 comments on “Open mike 30/01/2015 ”

  1. (spain will be the next neo-liberal domino to fall..)

    “..Can Podemos Win in Spain?..

    ..Just a year after its founding –

    – it’s the country’s leading party..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.thenation.com/article/195129/can-podemos-win-spain#

    • and what will it take to shake labour out of its’ austerity-politics/neo-liberal mindset..?

      (one of my definitions of austerity-politics is the telling of/to the poorest..that we ‘can’t afford’ to help them in any way..)

      ..and by that/any definitions..labour is still in neo-lib lockstep..

      ..will they change..?..or will they follow the path of their greek ideological counterparts..

      ..and continue to wither..and be overtaken by the left-contagion sweeping europe..

      (by a party talking also to the ‘missing-million’..remember them..?..)

      ..and receive a single-figure result @ the next election..?

      ..i guess the outcome is in their own hands..eh..?

      ..and at this stage..the ‘wither’ looks definitely on the cards..

      ..wot’ with the little-led labour promising to ‘move away’ from social-policies..

      ..talk about being on the wrong side of history..eh..?

      • phillip ure 1.1.1

        and i guess u wd be asking:..but what about the greens..?

        ..couldn’t they be ‘our’ party..?

        ..well yes..they could..but not how they currently are..

        ..they are too wedded to the current-paradigm..

        ..and their willingness/eagerness? to sell-out the most basic ‘green’-principles..

        (..drilling..?..we can live with that..mining..?..we can live with that..etc..etc..)

        ..pretty much rule them out..

        (of course norman saying bill english is the politician he most admires..only adds to that ‘wedded’/sell-out’ image/problem..)

        ..so as with labour..the greens’ future is in their own hands..

        ..the only question being whether they have the will/motivation/vision to see that..

        ..and to act/change accordingly..

        • gsays 1.1.1.1

          morena phil,
          i am aware that us people who post on these sites are a lot more engaged polliticaly than the masses..

          a comment came up here or somewhere else that working folk are either working or recovering from working (tired, family time, etc), so dont want to know about it.

          we are also blessed (cursed) to live in a sparsely populated country abounding with natural resources, water, clean air, food etc.

          i reckon the way to have people wake from their slumber is an election cycle of hard right politics.
          let the act crew have their way for three years.
          after all isnt this why the new party in spain is popular?

          when the gfc (or enevitable result of capitalism ) occured, petrol went over $2 a litre, and the middle clas got squeezed, i saw community gardens crop up, sharing started to happen.

          then, like the frog in the heating pot of water, we got used to it.
          i say swap the pot of h2o for a microwave.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1

            morena..

            ..i think 30 + yrs of neo-lib/right is more than enough..

            ..and i think that victory for the left will come from that missing-million..those labour said they were going to speak directly to..

            ..and then didn’t..

            ..give them some real ‘hope’ of a better life..

            ..and they will get out and vote..

            ..i mean..where was the motivation for them/youth to get out and vote in ’14..?

            ..the tories..a neo-lib labour..and a we-don’t-really-stand-for-much greens..

            ..and a melting-down internet/mana..

            ..hobsons’-choice – all around..

            • gsays 1.1.1.1.1.1

              hmm.. rather a melting down of mana, wasnt there a large part of labour cannibilizing (again) one of the other parties to the left of it.
              just think, labour strategy up in the far north.. give us your party vote and if hone wins you get two mps in parliament

              clearly 30 yrs of he who dies with the most toys wins, is not enough for the sheeple.

              my thoughts above were to how to energize/activate the populace.
              cheers, have a good day, i’m off.

              • without going into the details..i think there were major campaign-failures/’meltdown’ from mana..

                ..and yes of course labour etc. ganged-up..and that was a factor..

                ..but defeat does have many parents..and some of those parents did that damage to their own..

                ..and how to motivate/energise the populace..?

                ..policies/promises that have a real chance of being made a reality..

                ..policies that give them ‘hope’..

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Internet Mana lost Te Tai Tokerau by 800 votes, through all the established parties in Parliament ganging up on them.

                This was not a “melt down”, this was a political execution.

                We are sorely missing having both Hone Harawira and Laila Harre in the House right now. Instead we have the same old establishment players playing their same old game.

                • and also had harawira not alienated the pot-vote/scuppered the end-prohibition ad-campaign put together by internet party..

                  ..and irredeemably marked mana as a reactionary party on pot..

                  ..those 800 votes wd have been his for the taking..

                  ..and he/they wd now be in parliament..

                  ..that one is a clear/traceable defeat cause-effect..

                  ..a clear and present ‘parent’ of that defeat..

                  (n.b..the aotearoa legalise cannabis party got about 12,000 votes..

                  ..had harawira not driven them away..and had that end-prohibition media campaign been allowed to go ahead..

                  ..many of those 12,000 votes wd have gone internet/manas’ way..

                  ..(the greens had already burnt them off..again..with norman confirming that the repeal of cannabis-prohibition was not on their to-do list..

                  ..so those votes were up for grabs..)

                  • “.that one is a clear/traceable defeat cause-effect..

                    ..a clear and present ‘parent’ of that defeat..”

                    No phil – I think you are drawing them together when in fact they are separate.

                    Sure lots of parents of defeat but we don’t need to search for more, there are more than enough already.

                    • just saying no..doesn’t make it so..

                      ..i laid out my reasonings for my call on that..

                      ..if you wish to credibly challenge that call/conclusion..

                      ..i wd suggest addressing/unpacking those reasons wd b a good place to start..

                    • yes I’ve read your thoughts on it and I don’t agree – why I don’t agree is that I think you are pulling two different things and making them into one thing.

                      You have no evidence whatsoever that votes for ALC would have gone to IMP

                      You have no evidence whatsoever that Hone’s dislike of cannabis took votes from IMP

                      You do have knowledge and experience but that cannot draw it all together imo

                    • “..You have no evidence whatsoever that votes for ALC would have gone to IMP..”

                      c’mon..!..do you think the end-prohibition media-blitz that harawira canned..wouldn’t have got any votes..?

                      “..You have no evidence whatsoever that Hone’s dislike of cannabis took votes from IMP ..”

                      see above..

                      ..and when mainstream-polling shows that 87% of people favour ending prohibition..

                      ..how does harawira throwing a media-tantrum..and coming out as a reactionary on pot..

                      ..how does that not harm him/the imp-vote..?

                      ..and especially those 12,000 alcp-votes..

                      ..that had nowhere else to go..

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      I agree, marty. I doubt very much that Hone’s views on the electric puha cost many votes. Phil is unlikely to ever agree with us on that. My life is not less complete because of this.

                • ma rohemo

                  Kelvin Davis did a lot of campaigning in the southern end of Te Tai Tokerau .

                  The urban voters of the Auckland area were perhaps more aspiring to the slick image of KD rather than the more flax-roots type of leadership that is Hone’s strength.

                  Having Hone and Laila miss by such a small margin was very directly related to Labour’s intransigence.

                  Labour was founded on the idea of strength through unity.

                  They could have been in a governing coalition now if they had been less single-minded.

                  If Labour keeps crapping on its allies the left will have to regroup around a leader who comes from outside the parliamentary feather-bedding system.

                  • “..They could have been in a governing coalition now if they had been less single-minded..”

                    agreed..

                  • lprent

                    Labour was founded on the idea of strength through unity.

                    Indeed. Have a think about that, and then ask yourself how and why the Labour party views external left parties with a certain degree of skepticism.

                    They formed unity out of disunity, and have had nearly a century of being sniped at by other politically ineffectual wannabe parties of the ‘left’ with strong tendencies to disintegrate from internal dissension.

                    For some strange reason, not unrelated to that history, they tend to view jackasses like yourself with cheap self-serving formulas with a certain degree of scepticism.

                    The greens didn’t get any particular help, yet managed the 30-40 year build from being the Values party to a strong multi-person independent party advocating their own interests. They have earned political respect the hard way.

                    Whereas the IMP looked and acted like just another useless and ineffectual disaster.

                    If you want Labour to do you favours for your political views, then go and join it and spend some decades earning respect for your hard work, tenacity and clear thinking.

                    If you want to run a party outside then expect to spend decades building a solid and robust organisation that can compete with the NZLP and its rather independent electorate candidates for support. If you want the silver dish treatment, couple up with National and get sucked dry as the Maori party are now.

                    • ma rohemo

                      “they tend to view jackasses like yourself with cheap self-serving formulas……”

                      After all your banning for personal attacks it seems a strange approach to discussion.

                      I don’t know what touched such a delicate spot that you came out firing like that. A very low Standard.

                    • lprent []

                      I thought that I was being very clear. I think you are a idiot who is too lazy to think about why the Labour party doesn’t do the kinds of stupid things that *you* think that they should do. I explained it to you.

                      However from your response, and its complete lack of response to any point in the comment, I suspect that you are so busy self-pleasuring yourself with a broomstick up your arse, that you have forgotten there is a real world out there.

                      As for “personal attacks” – you really are a fool. Go and read the policy instead of just being an idiot trying to wank your way to an alternate reality.

                      There is a rule about personal attacks on authors writing posts. That is because I want authors to write more posts. Given a choice between an author who makes and effort to keep this site having comment and a commenter who is often just there to attack authors, then I ban the arseholes who attack my authors.

                      If you don’t like that, then I really don’t give a damn. Argue about it and the rules about being a useless critic trying to run the site come into effect.

                      There is no rule about personal attacks between commenters. That is because it would wind up in a wrangle about what is an attack or not. So attacks between commenters are usually ok – unless they get out of hand (and too boring to be bothered reading). Then I pick the person who I think is the biggest problem (ie worst troll) and boot then out of the discussion. If required then I keep booting until the comments get interesting to read again.

                      However there is a rule about *pointless* abuse. If you want to abuse someone while making a personal attack, then you have to explain clearly why the abuse is directed at them.

                      However I’d say that my “attack” was quite pointed.

                      Don’t like the rules? I really don’t care. Just don’t whine about them. Just leave.

                • lprent

                  What I can’t understand is why IMP didn’t realise that political parties and political candidates generally don’t do ‘favours’ for other parties.

                  The IMP didn’t do enough work in the Auckland parts of TTT. It was pretty clear that they underestimated Kelvin Davis targeting there. They also really underestimated how much they’d pissed off the Maori electorate Labour activists with Hone and some of his idiot supporters bad-mouthing Kelvin and Labour. The mood amongst them on election night was strongly on the “fuck you Hone, take that” mood. They weren’t like that in 2011.

                  Essentially when fucktards from parties like the IMP slag off other parties and candidates, then they should damn well expect a reaction. Bitching about it just shows a degree of political immaturity that to me indicates that they are more adolescent than adult, and I wouldn’t want to trust them near legislative power. Voters tend to follow the same way of looking at parties.

                  The “other parties” really only were the Maori party for electorate votes. They have always opposed Hone. Their vote wasn’t dissimilar to that of 2011.

                  So what you are talking about are the few wankhard National and Act voters in that electorate. If there were half of 800 of them voting there I’d be really surprised.

                  Looks to me like just another myth to cover people who weren’t up to the task at hand – perhaps they should learn from it and come back another day with a better understanding on what not to do in politics.

                • cricklewood

                  A execution yes but surely when planning the Mana Internet alliance they realized that they would hand a big stick with which to beat them with to the right wing parties and that a desperate labour party wouldn’t hesitate to join them if the tide of public opinion went out on Kim Dotcom which it did when the moment of truth turned into a sideshow around the ‘evidence’ Kim promised and didnt front.
                  Mana played a risky card to try and break the circuit which I understand but it was a gamble that was lost I think that who ever advised them was overly optimistic or an idiot. They certainly needed someone a whole lot better around the strategy to get it right probably would have been a better use of funds than to have a ‘roadshow’.

                • Clemgeopin

                  +1

                  Labour and NZF were fools.

                  Had they played better smarter politics, today we would have had a labour led left wing government under a coalition with the Greens, NZF and IMP.

                  And Key would have been in Hawaii waiting for summer to pay his respects to Obama among some wealthy golf course holes.

      • Skinny 1.1.2

        Phil your quite harsh on Labour, I feel a lot more optimistic with Little as leader than I did with Goff, Shearer and Cunliffe. Little’s speech contained plenty of positives like high job growth, repelling anti worker legislation, fire at will, destroying zero hours contracts. With staunce Leftie Matt Mc Carten in there do you believe he is going to turn neo-liberal. You can take it the answer is NO.

        • phillip ure 1.1.2.1

          skinny..all i have to go on are their policies..in ’14..and now..(what to make of the promise to ‘move away’ from social-policies..?..(!)..)

          ..and yes..they are better than the tories..

          ..but i see one of those waves of change/history on the way..

          ..the pendulum is well and truly swinging-back..

          ..and they/labour are well behind the 8-ball..(with the greens in there as well..)

          ..and i am sure there are many in labour who share those ideals just become a reality in greece..

          ..but they are not in power in the labour party..

          ..it is still all those same old same old neo-lib faces staring out at us..

          ..and the same old same old austerity-politics..

          ..and yes..little may be (marginally) better than those who came before..

          ..but i don’t think it is/will be enough..

          ..and seriously..!..go and look at the fate of labours’ ideological-compatriots in greece..the ‘socialist’ party..

          ..they have gone from being govt in the 80’s/90’s..to a single-figure result in the this last election..

          ..the similariies between the two parties is striking..

          ..and should be a wake-up call for the left within both labour and the greens..

          ..time for them to seize the moment..

          • Skinny 1.1.2.1.1

            Phil it’s a complex issue for the Left here countering against capitalism and neo liberal party’s. Political party’s have to either get elected or over throw the government. The later just won’t happen here.

            One of the biggest problems is babyboomers and the shift in who they vote for. Early on many fought the fight against tories. As they age and acquired wealth, get comfortable with assets, a home mortgage free, a rental or 2 as a retirement nest egg. Plenty change to protect their lot. They won’t vote for a party that wants to introduce a CGT. Whole sways of them change. Then you have rampant consumerism, the free market, freedom to negotiate (bullshit con) with the boss, never mind unions attitude. It goes on to why bother voting politicians/party’s are all the same.

            • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.1.1

              i point you at the ‘missing million’..

              ..think of policies that will give them hope..(u.b.i. the obvious one..)

              ..labour has spent far too much time fussing around the sensibilities/cares of the middle-class..

              ..and their neglect of their duties..for some thirty odd yrs..have left us with a low-wage economy..and endemic-poverty..

              ..labour must change..or someone else will come along promising just that..

              ..and will sweep labour away in the process..

      • Gosman 1.1.3

        I’ll tell you what Philu. If Greece or Spain actually alter anything significant in terms of the ‘austerity’ policies they are being forced to follow in the next 18 months I will acknowledge you on a public forum as a much more astute follower of political trends than I.

        • phillip ure 1.1.3.1

          define ‘anything significant’..

        • tricledrown 1.1.3.2

          Gooseman
          Bank of England govenor says Austerity is foolish and is not working.

          • phillip ure 1.1.3.2.1

            yeah..i was surprised/pleased to see that yesterday..

            http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/28/bank-england-governor-attacks-eurozone-austerity

            ..asp. as far as the timing was concerned..coming hot on the heels of the victory in greece..

            ..and the fact that destroys the austerity-story/myths..

            ..is that the best way to stimulate/grow/help/preserve an economy..

            ..is to increase the incomes of the poorest..

            ..because all that money instantly churns back into the economy..

            ..thru retailers’/service-providers’ tills…

            • tricledrown 1.1.3.2.1.1

              Gosman.
              It looks like Gosman is going to have to eat his own words a lot sooner than his own timeline.
              Given that Greece has already halted all that is all asset sales already.
              That is huge change and is hugely signifigant!
              The Bank of Englands comments
              Hugely signifigant!
              Gosman time to honour your promise!

            • Bearded Git 1.1.3.2.1.2

              I thought this was Open Mike not Phil Ure and Pete George Mike

            • cricklewood 1.1.3.2.1.3

              ..is that the best way to stimulate/grow/help/preserve an economy..

              ..is to increase the incomes of the poorest..

              ..because all that money instantly churns back into the economy..

              ..thru retailers’/service-providers’ tills…

              This is a point that parties on left failed to communicate and it is one that is easy to understand and for that matter common sense. Give someone doing well an extra hundy they will save 50 spend 20 in NZ and the rest offshore… give someone at the bottom and extra hundy they will spend it all in NZ in the tills of the small businesses that so many people work for in NZ I hope it is a point Andrew Little hammers home.

              • it has long puzzled me why the left don’t hammer that point home to the media/business..

                ..it is so bleeding obvious..

                ..and it is only the neo-lib politics of both national and labour..

                ..that stop them from doing it..

                ..ideology..not logic..rules/drives that (bad) decision..

        • Skinny 1.1.3.3

          Oh look who ghosts in to challenge phil in a cock fight.

          Planing on joining thousands of pakeha & maori up at Waitangi Gosman?
          How about joining Pete G flipping pork & puha burgers, fund raising for the ACT party on a stall next to Mana’s. Post us a selfie rubbing noses with Hone if you do.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.2

      It looks funny to me to see “Can Podemos win.” It seems redundant. I suppose that’s the curse of being multilingual, and illiterate in all of them.

  2. Pete George 2

    Is this a spoof site?

    Waitangi a ban on Burgers not Burkha

    At Waitangi this year Kingi Taurua the paramount Chief of Ngati Rahiri at Te Tii Marae has come out saying David Rankin has misheard the announcement there is a ban on Burgers not Burqa especially triple cheese burgers with fries. The leadership at Waitangi want better food choices but are willing to consider burgers if they are healthy.

    And The New Zealand media dictatorship

    Eleanor Catton has managed to reveal the mechanism of the National party media dictatorship this could be extremely dangerous for the survival of our democracy. According to Sean Plunkett you are not permitted to criticise the National government its unpatriotic and against the people of New Zealand.

    Too many reporters within journalism have intimate relationships with the national party that are a conflict of interest designed to mislead the New Zealand public. These reporters are holding back real journalists like Andrea Vance.

    It is unnatural for the press gallery to be uncritical of a seven year old government. The Prime minister office is pouring to many resources into dirty politics and controling the media and little effort to tackle the housing crisis or poverty reduction.

    The graphic is particularly funny. Competition for The Civilian?

    • Have you actually read the story you commented on? Have you read any other stories at that Mana site? You are a waste of time peter.

    • Olwyn 2.2

      The graphic is based on the cover of The Luminaries, which also shows a group of connected characters in that form.

    • vto 2.3

      So Sean Plunket says that if you receive something from the government you should be grateful and not criticise it…

      That takes in every single person in the country.

      Fuck Sean Plunket is a dick. A, big. limp. dick.

      • gsays 2.3.2

        hi vto,isnt that sexist language? (insert cheeky winking round face here)

        i expect you to be engaged in a long tirade of arguements now using a word for penis to describe someone, …or not.

      • Gosman 2.3.3

        While I disagree with the sentiment expressed by Mr Plunket I do think receiving government funds opens yourself up to this sort of criticism. If you don’t want people thinking you are public property don’t accept public funding.

        • vto 2.3.3.1

          It only opens you up to criticism by people who lack the correct understanding of our system and that is mostly conservatives who, research has established, have lower IQs, so it is hardly surprising and absolutely no reason to listen to your point which is rubbish

          • The lost sheep 2.3.3.1.1

            “conservatives who, research has established, have lower IQs,”

            And the Left have demonstrated their superior intelligence by allowing the Right to run rings around them for the last seven years.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.3.1.1.1

              Well, they certainly have you enthralled 🙄

              • The lost sheep

                No mate.
                I’m just wandering in the wilderness looking for some sign that the grass is growing back through the shit.

                Andrew Little is giving me some hope that might finally be the case.

        • phillip ure 2.3.3.2

          that is bullshit gosman..

          ..the.any assumption that the receiving of any govt funding comes with an automatic gagging-clause..

          ..that’s the right..eh..?..always fighting against democracy/free-speech..

          • Gosman 2.3.3.2.1

            I didn’t state that. I stated that receiving government funds basically means people start to feel they are entitled to make comments on aspects of your life you may feel like are only you acting in a private capacity. It happens with politicians all the time for example.

            • tricledrown 2.3.3.2.1.1

              Gosman.You have painted yourself into a corner goostepper!
              Lies covered up by bigger lies.
              Shifting the blame of your lies to politicians in general shows your argument is rather lame.

              • Gosman

                What lie have I made here?

                • McFlock

                  Apparently pretending that “people” only feel entitled to talk about aspects of a prominent person’s private life only if that person receives government funds.

                  Maybe it was a genuinely-held assertion on your part, rather than pretence, but making blatantly stupid comments as if folks have never heard of “Woman’s Weekly” or “TMZ” opens you up to to this sort of criticism. Especially as your comments tend to favour or at least praise with faint damnation (like your ‘I don’t agree with him, but people like him will think it so keep your head in if you take public money’ comment today).

                  I mean, I’m sure you weren’t trying to spin the issue at all, but (since you keep making comments like that) it’s only natural that “people” will think you’re a damned liar who keeps trying to mislead readers.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3.3

          While I disagree with the sentiment expressed by Mr Plunket I do think receiving government funds opens yourself up to this sort of criticism.

          No it doesn’t and the only people who would think that it does are the people who want to tell you how to live.

        • weka 2.3.3.4

          “While I disagree with the sentiment expressed by Mr Plunket I do think receiving government funds opens yourself up to this sort of criticism.”

          Which sort of criticism (assuming from your comment that the treason and hua ones were out of line)?

        • gsays 2.3.3.5

          hi gosman,
          “..I do think receiving government funds opens yourself up to this sort of criticism. If you don’t want people thinking you are public property don’t accept public funding.”
          i assume you include mr plunketts’ employer as well.

      • rhinocrates 2.3.4

        “Fuck Sean Plunket”

        OK, but only if you use an extra-thick condom.

        Here’s a nice exchange between him and Eleanor Catton’s father. He spends most of the time making strangled gargling noises:

        http://www.radiolive.co.nz/AUDIO-Eleanor-Cattons-father-and-Sean-Plunket-discuss-intellectualism-in-NZ/tabid/506/articleID/70038/Default.aspx

    • Skinny 2.4

      “Too many reporters within journalism have intimate relationships with the national party that are a conflict of interest designed to mislead the New Zealand public.”

      Yes so what’s the answer Pete? Fund raising by the Left to buy them out?

      A journalism ethic’s body that has the real powers to admonish (out) and fine journalists that don’t play the game with straight bat.

      • Gosman 2.4.1

        Yes. Set up your own privately funded left leaning media. surely you have enough wealthy left leaning supporters to back you?

        • Skinny 2.4.1.1

          I do have a left leaning billionaire Australian friend who I missed catching up with at this years premier horse sales. I assume he is too busy bringing about Abbott’s down fall, tho he likes a challenge, get a much better one out of Key.

          Besides the Tories are toast over there.

    • TheContrarian 2.5

      Not a spoof site – the domain name is registered to Joe Trinder who I believe was on the Mana list.

    • freedom 2.6

      Oh He of the Beige, your suggestion is amusing as it exposes you once again for being a shrill pill.

      You state endlessly how you source information from a wide variety of news media and blogs from all sides of the political spectrum yet now claim ignorance of Mana News? A site that has been steadily producing content for quite a while now and was most certainly an active source of information during the last Election.

      So thankyou for re-confirming that as far as political sincerity and comments thereof, you are and will always be an utter waste of peoples’ time.

    • Murray Rawshark 2.7

      It’s far more serious and informed than yawnz. I thought what KIngi Taurua said was brilliant.

  3. Pat O'Dea 3

    It’s like Jack the Ripper got the portfolio of Ministry for Women.

    To demonstrate their attitude to climate change…

    The government has appointed Simon Bridges as Minister for Climate Change Issues.

    The public’s reaction:

    “Oh No!”

    “That’s shocking!”

    “He is for deep sea oil drilling and everything!”

    https://www.national.org.nz/team/mps/detail/simon.bridges

  4. Te Reo Putake 4

    An interesting piece on why Syriza chose a right wing party as its coalition partner:

    https://theirategreek.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/strange-bedfellows/

    • Ad 4.1

      Like Labour forming a coalition with Act. Ewk!
      Hope New Zealand is never put into that scale of crisis.

      Mind you the current cross rate is great for the upcoming European holiday.

      • Murray Rawshark 4.1.1

        More like a successful Mana forming a coalition with ACT. What a shame that KKE are in an ultra-left social-fascist type stage of their development.

  5. hokey 5

    Eleanor Catton and Salman Rushdie: standard bearer for free speech? http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2015/01/from-rushdie-to-catton.html

  6. weka 6

    What’s going on with the Manawatu Standard? It’s published two pieces recently that support the right of women to speak out strongly, and one of pieces has a named author.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/65446799/Editorial-Threats-go-way-beyond-freedom-of-speech

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/65532181/Editorial-Eleanor-Cattons-candour-does-New-Zealand-proud

    • McFlock 6.1

      Farmers came for a journalist, so the MS temporarily gets the point.

      I’m sure it’s fleeting, like most media bouts of principle.

      • Ergo Robertina 6.1.1

        what?
        please provide evidence the MSM approves of threats of sexual or physical violence towards women as long as they aren’t journalists or published writers.

        • weka 6.1.1.1

          Pretty sure that’s not what McFlock meant.

        • McFlock 6.1.1.2

          No I won’t, because that has nothing to do with what I said.

          But if the MSM gave equivalent attention to similar threats against women (or members of any other frequently-threatened group) who aren’t journalists or authors, there wouldn’t be column space for any other type of news story.

          • Ergo Robertina 6.1.1.2.1

            ”But if the MSM gave equivalent attention …”
            Many women or others who have been subjected to violence eschew being in media, talking about it in public, or even telling friends and family.
            But for those who choose to their stories seem to be told well, given prominence, and angled to encourage others to seek help.
            I would have been interested if you had examples to the contrary.
            Commercial pressure on the media worries me in this respect. Obviously court reporting has gone by the wayside purely because of commercial pressure.
            But your first sentence suggests your original comment was merely using this case to leverage a generalised comment against the media, which given what this case involves is rather vile.

            • McFlock 6.1.1.2.1.1

              Given that you took my initial comment to ‘suggest’ that I believed the media “approves of threats of sexual or physical violence towards women”, I don’t place any particular importance on what you might now think my comments suggest.

              • Ergo Robertina

                Dishonest of you to use a word from one comment and pretend I used it in a different comment.

                [lprent: Happens sometimes. Usually browser related. Fixed. ]

                • Ergo Robertina

                  Oops, I’m not sure why that duplicated like that and the delete button has disappeared on them.

              • McFlock

                Dishonest of you to use a word from one comment and pretend I used it in a different comment.

                sigh.
                There you go again.
                Hint: single quote vs double quote marks.
                Hint: Your response to my comment was “please provide evidence the MSM approves of threats of sexual or physical violence towards women as long as they aren’t journalists or published writers.” (note the double quote marks).

                Or did you not take my initial comment to ‘suggest’ (note single quote marks) that I felt that the MSM approves of threats of sexual or physical violence towards women as long as they aren’t journalists or published writers?
                In which case: why did you ask me to provide evidence for an assertion you did not believe I made?

                • Ergo Robertina

                  You’re using single quote marks incorrectly in this instance.
                  Single quote marks are for a quote within a quote (like reported speech inside a quote) or characterisations and colloquialisms, not for a single word like that.
                  BUT approve was the wrong word; I could have expressed it differently.
                  You have since indicated your comment used the farmer journalist case as a general barb towards the media.
                  To me that is distasteful because of the specifics of this case.
                  Whether or not you deem my view to have any value or importance is of very little concern.

                  • McFlock

                    Oh joy, another argument about quotation vs paraphrasing. The difference between “characterisations” and my use of “‘suggests'” is a bit subtle for me.

                    My comment was in response to Weka’s comment about an apparent change in coverage and editorial line by a fairfax publication. My “barb” was that this change is fleeting, and self-interested. You might find it distasteful, but (call me cynical) I’m pretty sure that in a few weeks we’ll be reading as much about it as we read about ebola these days, and with about as much relative change in prevalence.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      What do you mean by ”this change”?

                    • McFlock

                      See the preceding sentence.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      I don’t think there has been a change.
                      Former National MP Tau Henare rightly received negative coverage for his disgraceful comments about cleaner Mareta Sinoti who had made a submission on employment law changes. That was an attempt to silence this person, for whom giving a submission to a select committee would have been daunting, and the media did not think it was OK, or that it didn’t warrant a leading story.
                      And no, this comment doesn’t mean I don’t also think there are huge deficiencies in media, but it’s untrue to say there is not prominence afforded to less powerful people who are attacked after trying to speak truth to power.

                    • McFlock

                      How many editorials were written about Mareta Sinoti being threatened?

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      I don’t know. I just remember the coverage generally, and that people I discussed it with were disgusted a National MP bullied a person who was exercising their democratic right to participate in the democracy and say their piece.
                      By the way, it’s not right to say she was threatened; I would use the term bullied or attacked.

                    • McFlock

                      As do I.

                      Found loads of press releases and news reports (although most of those generally seem to be the same wire service report after editing) on it.

                      But I don’t recall (and can’t find) any editorials on freedom of speech etc relating to henare’s behaviour. And yet there are quite a few editorials and opinion pieces as well as news articles on Catton’s comments and the responses, and on the journo who received threats from farmers.

                      I suggest that there is your example of editorial change.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      You have a point; the Henare case was stark because of the power imbalance and ought to have been linked with more subtle ways National bullies as a narrative about this government.

                      But I think people assume that if they hear a couple of cases (Andrea Vance as well), it means every time a journalist is threatened or bullied they rush into print and set it to rights. I don’t think that is the case.
                      Putting aside the effect on the individuals involved (after all NZ is a bullying culture which permeates many sectors) it can affect the quality of coverage the public receives, so it’s probably good to be reminded now and then.

                  • greywarshark

                    Cripes Ergo R
                    What is all this about? I thought you took a balanced view to matters.
                    What a disappointment. You have chosen to defend the media against some cynical comment and are going on as if it was a matter of life or death. Shees.

                    • weka

                      +1 far more important things to argue about, esp today.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      grey: when we agree with someone their view is ‘balanced’; if we don’t agree it’s extreme; if we don’t think the topic is worth discussing, they’re being a bit silly and ”going on” about something that doesn’t matter too much.

                      weka: ignore it then. If I had to make a judgement, I’d put quite a bit of what gets said on here into the less important category, but I don’t take it on myself to make such a call, much less to officiously state what topics are worthy of discussion, or what days it’s OK to divert from the main news stories.

            • Tracey 6.1.1.2.1.2

              good o, mcflock has to prove a negative then…

              😉

  7. Anne 7

    It seems John Key couldn’t answer several questions about his new housing strategy but despite being the PM who is running the country that’s fine by the MSM. He still gets 8/10 from the NZ Herald.

    Andrew Little openly admits he doesn’t know which country [currently] has the lowest unemployment statistic but oh dear what a shocking blunder, He gets 4/10 from the NZ Herald.

    Brent Edwards asks the rhetorical question:

    Who’s going to get the most scrutiny?

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/264867/andrew-little-in-testing-times

  8. JMG has an interesting post up.

    “Imagine, for a moment, that an industrial nation were to downshift its technological infrastructure to roughly what it was in 1950.”

    Nothing, but nothing, stirs up shuddering superstitious horror in the minds of the cultural mainstream these days as effectively as the thought of, heaven help us, “going back.” Even if the technology of an earlier day is better suited to a future of energy and resource scarcity than the infrastructure we’ve got now, even if the technology of an earlier day actually does a better job of many things than what we’ve got today, “we can’t go back!” is the anguished cry of the masses. They’ve been so thoroughly bamboozled by the propagandists of progress that they never stop to think that, why, yes, they can, and there are valid reasons why they might even decide that it’s the best option open to them.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2015/01/the-one-way-forward.html

    I know, I know – heresy!

    But if you have a read I think he counters, rather elegantly, pretty much all of the objections that would be made.

    • weka 8.1

      Heh, I’ve been thinking about this very thing this week. Why is it that we don’t even talk about powerdown seriously yet? What would be so bad about doing with less? It’s not like we haven’t been through processes like this before eg Great Depression, WW2. Is it hang over from then? Or neoliberalism?

      Or is it fear? How would we manage if we don’t have all the shiny things, or aspire to all the shiny things? What would be left with?

      • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.1

        Not only are we not talking about power down seriously yet, we are not talking about power down *at all*. Labour is talking about more economic growth, creating export jobs, and improving the living standards and consumption of Kiwi households though.

      • marty mars 8.1.2

        I think the quote sums up the why – the cult of progress is, pretty well, all persuasive unless like some of us who choose early to drop out the bottom of the system (as much as possible anyway). Hell we can’t even get enough people to vote green or change their lifestyle – it is no wonder that deliberate slowdown is laughed at.

        • weka 8.1.2.1

          Yes, but it’s not like no-one is talking about this. It’s just not being done in public. By anyone (is that right?). Which seems odd.

          • marty mars 8.1.2.1.1

            I don’t think many are talking about this, exempting a few, and if they did, publicly they be ridiculed and ostracised. I see the whole downsizing, de-unrelentingprogress type movements as being quite underground but growing, definitely growing – people are getting on with it – they are there but public exposure is just not worth it – very difficult to stand up to the ‘progress-zealots’.

            • gsays 8.1.2.1.1.1

              hi marty, weka,
              weka what does your version of powerdown look like?

              i am most of the way thru derrick jensens’ end game.
              i keep coming to the conclusion that the way my brown brothers lived, pre european contact, is the long term future for aotearoa/new zealand.

              i can build a dwelling from the land base, but its a lot harder without corrugated iron.

      • greywarshark 8.1.3

        @ weka
        I think there ia an Earth Day in March. I was thinking wouldn’t it be a good idea to talk about having a powerdown day on that day.

        Get out all the things at home waiting to be repaired, and sit down as a family and do them. Fix and glue some toys, paint chipped ones, mend a doll’s dress or knit something. Do some crafts.

        Plan a new crop and work in the garden, Someone find recipes using own garden vegetables for when they are full-grown. Work out a roster so everyone does something in the garden.

        Wear clean clothes that haven’t been ironed. Wear something that is still good that has a small stain on it. Sew the missing buttons on shirts. Clean and polish shoes and try to get another season out of them. Retain, repair, reuse, save and then have that money for things that you need and that bring enjoyment.

        That’s how I would sell it. Would that work in with the idea of powerdown? Or am I going away from the point. What I have been saying is part of acting locally while thinking globally idea.

        • weka 8.1.3.1

          That is such a great idea!!

          Earth day is April 22 (Sunday), possibly too close to ANZAC day on the 25th (Weds), but maybe not.

          How would it be organised?

          • greywarshark 8.1.3.1.1

            @ weka
            I’m good with ideas and have done some things in the past but not sure how to get started. And don’t have much time available. But I have the drive to do something to get started. Is powerdown a good word to use that conveys a lot in its intrinsic meaning and intrigues those who haven’t started to think about it? At first thought I think it would be useful as a sort of exhortation and description of the thinking and rhythm needed for the future.

            The type of thing I suggested, hanging on April Earth Day, could get going in even just a few regions as a pilot. An individual could try to get a group together in each region. At first there might only be one person in each town working on one thing, but all keeping in touch with activity and keeping readable diary notes in an exercise book! (that would be passed on to the next year’s activist and added to, keeping up with the info on who was helpful, receptive, sour and dogmatic etc) and getting the idea out there. And the one thing they thought of would be written about in the local newspaper, someone would talk about it on Radionz to ?Simon Mercep on around the country’s doings, Bryan Crump in the evenings, weekends? Something arty to the creatives in the weekends. And then talk to someone who would give a positive word on commercial radio, (no good getting sneered at or having a final put-down comment just after the interview finished which many male voice-peacocks have perfected).

            How to get people together and talking first? I suppose Facebook or Twitter, which would get the younger ones. And not to forget the stalwarts already in the field for years working away, who would give advice and support and enjoy some elder acknowledgment. They are great characters who have laboured on for years and often against resentment or apathy. They enjoy seeing some others rise and continue the work even in a different way.

            Incidentally, and germane to this, on the radionz farming program, there were interviews with someone from a group I think Ducks Unlimited which has been working for years at restoring and maintaining wetlands and breeding various native ducks.
            http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife
            http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20165515
            It was mentioned that almost all the members had grey hair, and the young ones weren’t enthused. And she said that the same applied to community-aware groups like Rotary and Lions. Younger people are not coming forward. And there used to be a group called Jaycees for young men mainly in business and enterprising to get amenities and good facilities in their towns. Then it dwindled as the impact of weekend opening and longer hours, and less weekend availability for personal choice came with the 1980’s neo libs. A poultry breeder said that the loss of the weekends and time for personal life and interests had made a big impact on their followers.

            So there is a malaise in NZ, a loss of the binding community-building interest where young mature people got together in a common interest. If that can be combatted more and more with more community-building, sustainability events as well as artistic and entertainment ones and displays and goods at eco-weekends etc. that would be a good aim and achievement.

            • weka 8.1.3.1.1.1

              thanks grey, that’s very good.

              As someone who’s been active in the field for a long time, I would say this. Most people who already get it are already doing many things and have little free time to organise something like this. We can look at the many intiatives already in existence eg Transition Towns

              http://www.sustainableoamaru.org.nz/home.htm

              http://www.transitiontowns.org.nz/lowerhutt

              The trick becomes finding the right person/people who get the idea and have the skill and time to make it move forward. I think the best thing we can do here on ts is keep discussing it and see what comes out of it.

              I put a comment in Weekend Social asking people what they’re doing over the weekend that’s part of the powerdown. We can also keep coming back to this theme in whatever other conversations are going on. I would see getting the powerdown discussed more widely than it presently is is crucial.

              I’m going to have a think about whether powerdown is the right term to use (it comes out of the Transition Town/Peak Oil movements, so it has a good pedigree, but I’m not clear what it will say to people who are only just starting to think about this.

        • Clemgeopin 8.1.3.2

          I get you, but you are asking for a miracle in this age of Facebook, i-phone, twitter, internet, umpteen Tv channels, U-Tube, Wi-fi……..and did I mention Facebook?

    • Bill 8.2

      Hmm. My first reaction is to go in the opposite(?) direction. Take all the labour saving and more efficient technologies of today, remove the in-built obsolescence, and free vast numbers of ourselves from stupid, soul destroying jobs.

      Abolish the market and have communities, as opposed to individuals, interact with systems of production and distribution.

      Move out of our power hungry nuclear family castles/sarcophagi and back to more communal and less power hungry living arrangements. Retrofit present houses to better serve individual and communal needs instead of having them stupidly set up to replicate individual needs all of the time. 20 houses currently equates to 20 washing machines, 20 hot water systems, 20 cookers, 20 bathrooms/showers/toilets etc…and 20+ cars, TVs, computers etc while the reality is that a fraction of those numbers would comfortably cater for the (say) 60 odd people currently living in those 20 houses.

      In short – get our fcking lives back 😉

      • weka 8.2.1

        Removing planned obsolesence is going back the to 50s 😉

        • Grant 8.2.1.1

          Planned obsolescence was a well established feature of most manufactured goods by the 1950’s.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

          • weka 8.2.1.1.1

            Not in NZ it wasn’t. I’m betting we didn’t get into full swing until the 80s. Fisher and Paykel appliances would be one example.

            • Colonial Rawshark 8.2.1.1.1.1

              That was true to an extent in NZ at the time…but lightbulb manufacturers had long agreed to limit the life of their products to 1000 hrs.

              • Ergo Robertina

                This doco tells the story of planned obsolescence, dating back to the 1920s with the light bulbs:
                https://archive.org/details/PlannedObsolescenceDocumentary

              • weka

                ok, but historical pedantry aside, did you get my point to Bill?

                Going back doesn’t mean literally giving up everything we have now and reverting. It means being willing to do without the consumerist imperative or modern ideas about what need is.

                Leaving aside light bulbs, NZ was still largely manufacturing goods in the 50s (and 60s, 70s) that were designed around quality, performance and longevity. Things lasted and then when they broke things could be repaired. We had whole businesses dedicated to repairing things. These are dynamics of a society that is attempting resiliency and sustainability. Not only is technology better in some cases back then but the philosophy was better too.

                • So true weka – you have really understood the concept – it is going back to go forward. JMG does say, and I agree with him, that we don’t know what will happen so we don’t know what level of technology is sustainable and relevant – we might have to go back further to find the equilibrium or sustainable point.

                  • weka

                    That is very good, thanks.

                    I remember the point where I had to buy a car that I knew I could no longer maintain myself. Individual car ownership aside, the issue of engines being so complex now that you need high level infrastructure to maintain them is a good example of where we need to go back. I love reading about the experience of Cubans, and in this instance of how they’ve kept an old fleet going for so long, out of necessity. This is one reason why I think the whole electric car things is bogus. If we try and conver the fleet now, we will just end up with cars that run on electricity but are not very resilient. I’d be more confident if I saw use going backwards.

                    I feel lucky because my parents were children of the depression and my mother’s family were farmers, so I have appreciation for these things built in. I don’t know how you teach that in the age of disposable cell phones where some people have never known anything else.

                    I love that point about not knowing what will happen. David Holmgren talks about how we can’t know the future too, and that it will be up to later generations to figure out the hard stuff as they come to it. We just have to deal with what is in front of us.

    • Molly 8.3

      The de-growth movement is taking shape in various guises. Of course, at grassroots level.

  9. millsy 9

    Its time for the Greens to seriously consider their future.

    Do they want to be a ‘junior coalition partner’ to a Labour party that has no idea where it wants to go (Labour IMO is like a possum in the headlights — it has been for a long time. It litterally doesnt know what to do), support a National government that will push away a lot of its core supporters, or…

    Go for government in their own right.

    It is possible, but it will take a lot of debate within the party, a lot more comprimises, and it will require the pissing off of the phil u’s of this world. Might need a leadership change or three as well. The Green’s dont owe Labour anything. They have been repeatedly shut out by them for 15 years, its time to go out on their own.

    • “.. and it will require the pissing off of the phil u’s of this world..”

      how/why exactly..?

      ..are you advocating a green party tie-up with the mad-butcher..?

      ..’go green..!..eat cow..!’..?

      ..whoar..!

    • weka 9.2

      “Go for government in their own right.”

      What makes you think the GP aren’t already doing this?

      • Colonial Rawshark 9.2.1

        The Greens don’t yet have a philosophy or ethos for NZ which appeals to more than a small minority of voters.

        • weka 9.2.1.1

          10% isn’t a small minority. I think more people like the GP’s philosophy/ethos but get scared off voting for them (hence the GP do better in pre-election polls than on the day). Besides, Draco posted this the other day,

          A survey by the website voteforpolicies.org.uk reports that in blind tests (the 500,000 people it has polled were unaware of which positions belong to which parties), the Green party’s policies are more popular than those of any other. If people voted for what they wanted, the Greens would be the party of government.

          http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/28/convictions-politics-fear-syriza-podemos-snp-green

          • Colonial Rawshark 9.2.1.1.1

            Sorry, but people don’t vote on policy detail, they vote on philosophy, leadership and the credibility of that philosophy and leadership.

            • weka 9.2.1.1.1.1

              “Sorry, but people don’t vote on policy detail, they vote on philosophy, leadership and the credibility of that philosophy and leadership.”

              You appear to be implying that the GP’s policy is somehow separate from those things. It’s not.

              I’m not sure really where you are coming from. My comment was that of course the GP want to be govt by themselves. But as you and I know they’re not after power itself, and consider other things just as important. You criticise them for not having a popular philosophy, and then you criticise them for pandering to the middle classes (which increases their vote).

              Myself, I think they know what they are doing. I think they’ve shifted the conversation hugely around sustainability, and they’re largely hampered by the neoliberal agenda, Crosby Textor, the MSM*, voter apathy, and fear. In other words, the usual stuff.

              And of course the GP aren’t going to govern on their own. They don’t actually need to if Labour gets it shit together.

              *Did you see Paddy Gower’s rant today?

              • Colonial Rawshark

                No, I missed* Gower today.

                You appear to be implying that the GP’s policy is somehow separate from those things. It’s not.

                So you say, but I’d also make the same criticism of Labour.

                Notice how National goes into elections with little more than a shred of policy. But people believe in their philosophy, their ethos, their sincerity, and their ability to deliver.

                So I would indeed say that in many ways policy detail is actually “somehow separate from those things.”

                *Not really of course, but I didn’t see him.

                • weka

                  I didn’t see him either, but tv3 printed his anti-green vitriol (The GP is now in serious trouble, blah blah if I say it enough it will be true!).

                  “So you say, but I’d also make the same criticism of Labour.”

                  The GP’s princples are apparent throughout the party, the structure, the policies. I think the’ve compromised most on presentation.

                  That might be true for Labour too, but not in a good way 😉 Not overly critical, because Labour have the whole neoliberalism thing to shake that the GP has never had to deal with, so the GP are starting cleaner if you like.

                  Comparing the GP with National as if National are doing something good or right is a non-starter, because the only way for the GP to acheive that would be to abandon the principles and that would wreck the party because of what I just described (they’re throughout everything).

                  “Notice how National goes into elections with little more than a shred of policy. But people believe in their philosophy, their ethos, their sincerity, and their ability to deliver.”

                  Ok, so we’re talking about 30% of the electorate. Of that 30% some will be as you say. But many will vote National because their family does. Or because they like the economic policy but not the social policy but can’t vote on the left (ie they don’t buy the philosophy). Others will be swing voters and can’t bring themselves to vote Labour. etc. In other words, National win because they present this cohesive philosophy as you portray. They win because of apathy from the non-vote, disarray on the left, and too many people now voting from self interest.

                  • weka

                    Further, in the last couple of election the GP have had good leadership and focus on philosophy. What they can’t get over is the fact that ultimately they’re asking people to change for the greater good, whereas National are appealing to self interested people to stay the same.

        • greywarshark 9.2.1.2

          CR
          Would that be expressed as. they have not placed their separate policies and general ideas into a narrative that most NZs feel has a place for them and will enable them to have a good life of the kind they can envision now.

          If the Greens need to get the wider public behind the Party to bring about better environment, sustainable futures that are different from today/s view then they need to think hard, run focus groups and chat and then run through that circle again till they get it right for broadcast.

          • weka 9.2.1.2.1

            Pretty sure they do all those things already.

            What they’re really up against is that NZ doesn’t yet want to think seriously about sustainability. It’s getting there though.

          • Colonial Rawshark 9.2.1.2.2

            a narrative that most NZs feel has a place for them and will enable them to have a good life of the kind they can envision now.

            Almost exactly.

            Except the Greens have to help Kiwis envision a kind of good life that most cannot imagine now. A good life which is about something other than consuming more material goods and more energy faster than ever before.

  10. saveNZ 10

    OMG, new short film (2 minutes) starring Kirsten Dunst depressingly captures the ‘selfie’ generation’s lack of human interaction !!

    http://www.omgblog.com/2014/09/omg_new_short_film_starring_ki.php#7XM4lJiPczSsKxZK.01

    (If you remember Nelson Mandela’s funeral, it is not just the young generation who are affected by this).

  11. rnz reporting norman about to resign..?

    ..news conference @ 11.00 am..

    go on skinny..!..work yr contacts..!

    • millsy 11.1

      Christ! Law of attraction in action (see above..).

      The party needs someone with charisma.

    • Skinny 11.2

      If Norman is stepping down it’s likely to be either family reasons or a health issue. As far as I’m aware it’s not an internal party matter. Key and their spin merchants will be crunching whether to choose the timing to stand Sabin down. I would assume Key will over the weekend. This is if Norman steps down of course.

  12. greywarshark 12

    Listen to rnz after 11 am for news on Greens. They referred to multiple possibilities amongst Norman stepping down.

  13. Ad 13

    Note to self: must finish the Auckland house renovations, before we kill each other:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11393999

    • greywarshark 13.1

      This NZ chap in the link that Ad supplied, who tried to burn down his house poured kerosene on it and drank alcohol as he watched. His partner’s family had underwritten a mortgage on it, and they both had been working on it to finish it. He has virtually kicked everyone who had helped him with his house, in the backside. He is getting help for his addiction. He is supposed to be paying back money owing to his in-laws.

      when the defendant was questioned about why he did it, he said his reasons “encompassed a lot of things”.
      Mr Stevens said his client had been stressed trying to finish the house.
      Grindlay also had alcohol issues, which he was now getting help with from CareNZ, an addiction treatment provider, he said.

      I listened on Radionz this morning to how Charles Manson, the mad, managed to con women. A bad mixture – an amoral, unstable man who was on some sort of drugs.
      This NZ man is on alcohol and what else? Even after help he may never get back to normal behaviour and empathy.

      Charles Manson at primary school stirred up girls there to attack a boy who had annoyed him. His comment was that the girls had been doing what they wanted to, Manson wasn’t involved. The words ‘uninvolved, narcissistic, anti-social’ are important to consider when our survival is tenuous. The description of negative traits is of the arsonist, the destroyer, who is driven from a personal drive to satisfy vengeful emotions or desire for fame or infamy, either, like Charles Manson. And if it destroys others hopes and resources, this is a passing minor consideration.

      I think eventually we may have to bring back the death penalty to protect ourselves from such amorals. Manson is now 80 years and is still charismatic and seems entirely unchanged. As an old man his warped mind is still as potent. He has a presence on the internet. People have been known to meet outside the jail walls in the hope that he will be released. One vicious amoral may ruin a whole population. Poison to the people!

      • Murray Rawshark 13.1.1

        Nope. Not the death penalty. Not now. Not ever. Have a look at whom it gets used against – minorities, people that the 1% doesn’t like. It is too easy for the prosecution to fabricate evidence as well. Never.

      • Tracey 13.1.2

        are you advocating euthanasing the NZ guy rather than putting him into rehab through a prison rehab service???

      • McFlock 13.1.3

        lol

        Stupid acts when drunk and depressed are a far cry from being a lifelong psycho/sociopath.

      • Colonial Rawshark 13.1.4

        Manson now 80 years old, “married” a 26 year old woman last year who had been communicating with him since she was 17. Charming and manipulative as ever.

  14. millsy 14

    Looks like he is standing down as co-leader (Norman) but staying on as an MP.

    • he will stay on as mp long enough to get the pension super-gold card..which kicks in @ nine yrs..

      ..and then he will leave..and sweet-ride off into the sunset..

      ..with that huge pension his for the rest of his life..

      ..colour me cynical..but if he left now..(just under nine yrs..)..

      ..he wd not get the super-gold pension-card..

    • Murray Rawshark 14.2

      He has been the most effective opposition to NAct in the house. Labour have mostly either been AWOL or scored own goals. I wish him well in the future and am glad he’s still an MP, even if his super will be more than people who sit around smoking dope get.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15

    Public transport’s cost-effectiveness discussed

    We’re being told we could save ourselves $10,000 a year if we ditched the car and used public transport to get to work.

    That was actually ten days ago. I spotted it today in yesterday’s Western Leader under the headline Ditching the car can save money – Report

    The first question I had was: Why the hell isn’t this a major story in every news propagation service?
    Then: Why the hell isn’t the government doing something to increase and improve public transport?

    But then I realised that, if such savings were applied across the board as they could and should be, then NZ’s GDP would decrease by about 10% and no government would do that as they chase ever more GDP growth. There’s also the fact that the profits from those captured motorists would disappear and no government, wedded to the profit motive as ours are, would do that either.

    Our economic system is uneconomic.

  16. sabin has also resigned..

  17. weka 17

    “Two-thirds of more than 160 monitored river swimming spots in New Zealand have been deemed unsafe for a dip.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11393840

    Fuck you apathetic NZ. But carry on with your reality tv and your iphones and property speculation. Thank-you the NZ that is still and always working hard to at least slow down the damage.

    • marty mars 17.1

      “The data covered all of the country’s monitored rivers except for those in Auckland, Waikato, Northland and the West Coast, where councils did not use SFRG indicators in the period.”

      So that ratio is probably very optimistic once those regions are added in

    • Tracey 17.2

      has the Minister of Tourism commented on how this affects our image to oversees folks?

      • weka 17.2.1

        Am guessing that most rivers don’t look polluted, and the ones closest to the tourists are still swimmable.

        Some tourists getting sick and with the presence of mind to go to the media would be useful though.

  18. Puckish Rogue 18

    Wow, its all happening…can I post yet?

    [lprent: We clean the bans regularly on schedule. Please try to keep our workload down this time. ]

  19. Colonial Rawshark 19

    Baltic Dry shipping index at 3 decade low

    That northern hemisphere economic recovery is really racing ahead, eh.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-29/wtf-chart-day-baltic-dry-index-crashes-lowest-29-years

  20. weka 20

    Philip Catton, Eleanor Catton’s dad and philosophy professor, takes on Plunkett. Couldn’t bring myself to listen to Plunkett himself, but there’s this partial transcript from the Herald.

    “I think you used words that have nothing to do with the motivation of someone’s critical discussion, you called someone an ‘ungrateful hua’, you called them ‘a traitor’, these are names,” Dr Catton said, saying they were also “factually false”.

    He later said: “What you’ve said does not square with the reality that I know. I’m extremely surprised by the inaccuracy of your vision, not just by the inaccuracy of what you’ve said.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11394100

    • Tracey 20.1

      Go dad.

    • alwyn 20.2

      When did Dr Catton officially become a “Professor”, Weka?
      Did you promote him or is it the Herald that is confused?
      According to them
      “Dr Philip Catton, a former senior lecturer in philosophy at the University of Canterbury, confronted RadioLive presenter Plunket on his show this morning.”
      Didn’t the title of senior lecturer seem suitably elevated to you?

      • weka 20.2.1

        I cut and pasted those two words, so I assume the Herald made a mistake and later corrected. Care to take back the snark? There are plenty of things I can be accused of on ts, but making up that kind of shit isn’t one of them.

        • alwyn 20.2.1.1

          Fair enough. The fact that the Herald stuffed up their report doesn’t surprise me.
          The fact that they bothered to fix it is the amazing thing. I didn’t think they bothered to correct anything these days.

          • weka 20.2.1.1.1

            Someone probably asked them to. Not a good look I expect if the Catton family asked for a correction and they didn’t do it.

  21. Karen 21

    Excellent!
    Eleanor Catton’s Dad takes on Sean Plunkett You can listen to it on Radio Live, but if (like me) you cannot bear listening to Plunkett then there’s quite a good report here:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11394100

    I also liked Eleanor’s tweets at the bottom of the article

  22. Morrissey 22

    Protestors try to carry out citizens’ arrest on Henry Kissinger
    John McCain: “Get out of here, you lowlife scum!”

    Unfortunately, the stupidest man in the Senate wasn’t talking to Kissinger when he said that…..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11378342/John-McCain-Get-out-of-here-you-low-life-scum.html

  23. freedom 23

    It may not be as accurate as saying ‘we published lies’, but it is a start.
    Baby steps and all that
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/new-york-times-editor-dean-baquet-we-failed-to-do-our-job-after-911/comments/#disqus

  24. Morrissey 24

    Je suis gêné pour le malheureux Sean Plunket.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11394100

  25. freedom 25

    I would like to ask for some opinions on repeat posts of links. This might be unpopular to discuss as some people could feel they are being hassled, but I really am not pointing fingers at anyone. Most of us here have done it at one time or another. I know I have.

    It really does happen an awful lot and I would hazard a guess many are unaware quite how regularly it occurs because it occurs so regularly it has become a sort of white noise . Which is why I feel it needs to be addressed. Maybe it’s just me and this sort of stuff doesn’t bother others but how can a stronger community form, and comments grow to become meaningful discussions, if actions are regularly taken by that community without paying attention to activities within its own environment?

    I appreciate that it can be an oversight sometimes, but often it just looks like there is no thought applied before posting a link. Is it the desire to be first? Is that all people want? To be seen to have their finger on the pulse, which is kind of ludicrous when discussing links to MSM articles.

    Is it not wanting to put comments under certain handles that will create some illusion of hierarchy because that person got their post up first?

    If you look at today’s open Mike, posts 20, 21 + 24, there are three posts of the same link, almost in succession. Do people just not bother checking? It intrigues me is all, so thought I would ask.

    • weka 25.1

      Good points.

      Morrisey esp deserves a slap for posting a full 80 mins after me but still having the time to write in such bold yet obscure French 😉

      • Morrissey 25.1.1

        Sorry weka. I should have scanned the site before I posted. It’s another case of Great Minds Thinking Alike, n’est-ce pas?

        Three great minds, in this case.

    • McFlock 25.2

      I’ve found that sometimes reading the link, then checking to see if someone’s already linked, then figuring out what I want to put around the link, etc, leaves a lag where others see the same link and post it in the meantime.

      Particularly if grazing on the web -reading other threads, and then some oik disturbs me at work and I have to earn my crust 🙂
      And then I look like a dick because someone posted it 25 minutes ago (longer if it was in moderation :)). And then I delete, but someone’s replied and it kills the comment numbering. Might as well leave it up, lol.

      All in all, I’m pretty cool with just leaving the multiple links up – in today’s case, I generally overlook one of the commenters who linked, so I’m actually more likely to read the link because someone I have a bit more respect for actually linked to it, as well. And if something’s important to me, I try not to care by which avenue other people read it 🙂

      All that notwithstanding, come folks link better than others – the 1,000 word one-sentence rant is just as overlooked by me as the pretentious link-whore question that in no way describes the content of the link (e.g. “who do people feel about this – should they face further action, or have they…” yadda yadda. It’s impossible to tell whether it’s a political issue, a rugby team, or some oik talking about an obscure case in the levant).

      • freedom 25.2.1

        “And then I delete, but someone’s replied ”
        That is the very behaviour I was probing when I mentioned how who posts the link seems to matter and how multiple reposts of links harm the dialogue.

        The fault there, if there is any, is with the person who did not comment on the first posting of the link but instead chose to comment on a later posting of the same link. This ‘skip over’ is most likely due to whomever posted the link being out of favour with the person making a comment. At times this has lead to multiple streams of similar discussions and we all know how quickly that can cause confusion, ill feelings and ultimately derail a topic.

        There are no big solutions here, apart from the obvious ones
        Don’t do it!
        Think before posting !
        They have as much right as you do to post it! 🙂
        All I am saying is awareness of an issue is a positive step in resolution of that issue. And I think I am not alone in thinking it is an issue, albeit a minor one.

        • McFlock 25.2.1.1

          It’s not quite so simple – if someone’s replied to me, were the previous linkers in moderation? Did I make an insightful or (outrageously foolish) point that the responder wishes to discuss, and the first linker did not focus on that aspect? Were the links adjacent, or was one link buried in a completely different sub-thread and missed?

          I reckon it’s just in the “shit happens – roll with it” category, rather than being a big-ass problem.

          • freedom 25.2.1.1.1

            “shit happens – roll with it” ummm that’s how the world got in this mess
            (your moderation example is imho a rare event in context of the discussion)

            and i’m not saying it’s a big-ass problem, i was pretty clear about that

            I said it contributes to some of the negative influences in this community is all.
            Without details, big pictures do not exist. I pay attention to details, you know that. 😉 which is usually why when I stuff up, it is on the obvious stuff 🙂

          • Clemgeopin 25.2.1.1.2

            rather than being a big-ass problem.

            What is wrong with a big-ass?

  26. rawshark-yeshe 26

    sold out down the dirty rivers .. au revoir NZ as we knew it … so many more pieces gone ….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11394200

    • weka 26.1

      I don’t know the islands in question, but developing one and planting the others in natives seems not too bad.

      Look forward to the headline Swedes buy more southern pastures.

      • felix 26.1.1

        lol they didn’t say anything about planting, just that one would be a “native reserve”. I think they’re just saying they won’t un-plant it.

        Also I wonder if “reserve” means a reserve that’s available to the public? And if not, I wonder if it means they definitely absolutely promise not to “develop” the reserve island for their own commercial use. Maybe a teeny tiny little bar on the “reserve” island, perhaps?

        https://goo.gl/maps/hK6Hv

        Actually I don’t wonder that much…

        • weka 26.1.1.1

          Yes, and thanks to the Herald we will probably not know. Looks like they reprinted a press release from the OIC office.

          • weka 26.1.1.1.1

            Wonder what happened to this from 2012,

            For the past 80 years Pararekau, the second largest island in the harbour, has been used to graze stock, degrading the ecological value of the island.

            The developers say farming Pararekau is no longer financially or environmentally viable and they plan to subdivide the island into 11 lifestyle blocks with a shared recreation area, wetlands and extensive coastal planting.

            A causeway created in the 1960s would link the private community to the mainland. With a gate at either end of the causeway, vehicle access would be limited to residents, their guests and emergency services.

            Pedestrians and cyclists would be able to use the road to access a walkway around the island’s coastline.

            Local iwi Ngati Te Ata initially opposed the plans, saying Pararekau is wahi tapu – a site of sacred significance.

            But the preservation of archaeological sites in the developer’s structural plan, and the continued public access to the island’s coast that will allow iwi to undertake their kaitiaki (guardianship) role, convinced them to agree to the development.

            The court acknowledged the significant ecological gains the proposal would provide including the restoration of the island’s vegetation which would help the recovery of indigenous birds and lizards.

            A final Environment Court decision on the plan change is still to come.

            http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/7662446/Gated-island-community-a-step-closer

            • b waghorn 26.1.1.1.1.1

              Rich foreigners buying a bolt hole just in case??

              • weka

                Gated communities offend this kiwi’s sensibility, but I have to say that there is some good ecological work being done in NZ by very rich people, esp from overseas. We can complain about lack of access and foreign ownership (and I do), but these people are just getting on with doing the right thing by the land while NZ still thinks it’s acceptable to clear native ecosystems and pour cow shit into the water.

                • b waghorn

                  I agree that any land care is good but am Sceptical about cashed up foriegn “greenys” planting a few trees in nz to keep the official s happy.

                  • weka

                    I agree it’s good to be cautious. In the case of the island, it’s unfortunate that the reporter didn’t check this out, but it was on the business pages I think, so who gives a shit, right? I suppose I know more examples of rich people doing the right thing, but then I move in pretty green circles, and am less exposed to the ones just planting a few trees.

                    • b waghorn

                      I hope the greenys you you circle with aren’t the type that build castles then slap a few solar panels on and a Prius in the garage and pat them selves on the back.

                    • weka

                      lolz, good grief no.

      • rawshark-yeshe 26.1.2

        lol weka to your swedes comment !

  27. Murray Rawshark 27

    Observations for today:

    When sexual offenders are asked what they’re in prison for, it is common for them to answer “assault.” Technically they’re right, I suppose. Assault could be anything from hitting a cop’s face with your fist to sexual assault on a minor. The truth usually comes out.

    Why didn’t this say which court it happened in? That’s unusual.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11394223

    • Ergo Robertina 27.1

      Anything that could identify the person with name suppression is automatically suppressed. It is very unusual to say ‘a district court’.

      • weka 27.1.1

        Perhaps if the court decision coincided with something else going publicly, it would lead to speculation if the name of the court was released.

    • millsy 27.2

      I wonder if anyone else is thinking what I’m thinking…

      • McFlock 27.2.1

        Well, now you’ve raised it, I am indeed wondering whether anybody else is thinking what you are thinking. But then I’m not you, so the answer is yes somebody else is thinking what you are thinking, so I’m no longer wondering, so the answer is unknown. I wonder what it could be- geettoutofmybraaaaiiinn!

      • Ross 27.2.2

        Millsy, if I am thinking what you’re thinking (and I think I am) why is it so? Is name suppression usual in a case like the one we’re thinking about? I can think of needing to protect the identity of the victim as one reason. But it can’t be that serious if the accused is remanded at large. And how far can we speculate on an open forum (serious question – I really don’t know) before the water-boarders step in?

        • Murray Rawshark 27.2.2.1

          The legal advice I’ve had is that you can speculate as much as you like, but if you have actual knowledge of the case, you cannot say that you know who it is. Lprent may have had different legal advice.

          I have seen people remanded on bail for some very serious charges, but at large is a bit unusual. I can imagine it could be used if the judge were convinced that the prominence of the accused would make it difficult for them to leave the country. For example, the accused could have prominent tribal tattoos on their right arm, or could have been pictured in newspapers and television recently.

          The pedophile Phil Smith managed to escape because nobody knew what he looked like. I assume the prominent accuse may be so well known that it would be difficult for them to get through airport security. Although that would only work if people knew the person was the subject of serious charges. This is indeed strange.

          • lprent 27.2.2.1.1

            Pretty much. Speculation isn’t an issue so long as it is vague enough to be essentially meaningless – ie reading the tea leaves style.

            But we will leap on people who state that they know – even if we know that they are likely to be bullshitting. Or even if they start speculating confidently so that they look like they know the facts of the case.

            Simply put, if we don’t know what the suppression was on, then we can’t know what needs suppressing. So we act as if all such pointed speculation is someone trying to put us in the dock.

            Court suppression orders are nothing to fool with. We don’t know what evidence was placed in front of a judge to cause them to issue the suppression order, so we don’t speculate.

            I have a pretty basic rule. It says that if I see anything that might make a judge look at me and think that I may have deliberately allowed the name suppression to be violated, or that causes us problems with our privacy rules (ie having to give up some persons details) – then it is a problem.

            Then I will act against the person involved immediately and rather ruthlessly to make sure that they never want to do that to us again.. Other moderators may be kinder and simply cut out the offending passages.

            Therefore it is a possibly good or possibly bad thing that MS has been getting to comments before me today eh? Depends how much you like draconian preemptive bans.

      • Clemgeopin 27.2.3

        What are you thinking? Tell us! Then may be I can confirm or deny directly (and not through my orifice, whoops, I mean office) if I was thinking that too.

  28. Murray Rawshark 28

    The prominent one goes back to a district court on February 19.

    I will be in Whangarei on that day and it will be possible to pop along to the district court.

    Northland also has district courts in Kaitaia, Kaikohe, and Dargaville.

    Kaitaia is the closest to Coopers Beach.

    There is also a district court in Waitemata.

  29. Clemgeopin 29

    A quote I read today:

    “It’s actually a story of reducing Government spending, casualising our workforce, taking no steps to cool the property market, selling off our natural assets, ignoring inequality, ignoring high levels of personal debt, ignoring environmental change and privatising essential services. It is the story of the short-term benefits of trickle-down economics” : Chris Hedges–an American journalist, activist, author, Presbyterian minister and humanitarian.

    You may read more of his column and info of his books here:
    http://www.truthdig.com/staff/chris_hedges

    • Clemgeopin 30.1

      Whoops! Thanks. Yes, you are correct. I made a big error. I copied the wrong quote!
      The one I quoted above is indeed from the excellent Dita da Boni.

      The one I wanted to quote (Which somehow my copy/paste did not capture and I didn’t notice) was this from Chris Hedges:

      “We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and our banks destroy the economy.” – Chris Hedges – (1956- ) American journalist, author, and war correspondent
      —————————-
      NOTE TO ANY KIND TS MODERATOR:

      I would be grateful if a moderator would be kind enough to either delete my comment #29 or edit the author for that quote and enter the author as Dita da Boni. Thanks.

  30. Paul 31

    Does this sound like New Zealand?
    ‘The UK sacrificed pay for jobs.’

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/30/how-the-uk-sacrificed-pay-for-jobs

  31. weka 32

    Go Eleanor Catton!!

    In future interviews with foreign media, I will of course discuss the inflammatory, vicious, and patronising things that have been broadcast and published in New Zealand this week. I will of course discuss the frightening swiftness with which the powerful Right move to discredit and silence those who question them, and the culture of fear and hysteria that prevails. But I will hope for better, and demand it.

    Full statement,

    http://eleanor-catton.com/statement/

    • Incognito 32.1

      Snap!

    • Murray Rawshark 32.2

      Good on her. Our current crop of journalists remind me of school prefects, trying their best to catch the naughty boys and girls and curry favour with the teachers. I always thought prefects were scum. I got voted in as one in an experiment in democracy once, but the headmaster vetoed me 🙂 I wouldn’t have done it anyway.

  32. Incognito 33

    Good on the NZ Herald for publishing Eleanor Catton’s latest Blog entry http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11394346

    I did not know she had a blog – very naive of me http://eleanor-catton.com/category/blog/

    What particularly struck me in her blog was her statement “I love these moments of connection and the conversation they bring.” I think we all know what she means by that and that it is these that make a community of people, real or virtual, or a cohesive society: a place or platform were people can express themselves freely and open up, without fear, but in a reciprocal environment. At times, TS is such an environment, which is why I decided to join in ‘the conversation’. This is also the reason why I tend to lean left because the right, at present, appears to stand for individualism bordering on selfishness rather than connection and unity.

  33. Draco T Bastard 34

    Went to my sister’s for a BBQ tonight. Got to Henderson and some arsehole turned left over me. No, that isn’t an exaggeration he actually drove over my bike and me (No serious damage done to me thankfully but the front wheel was totaled). And then he didn’t stop.

    But that’s not what pissed me of most.

    I called the police immediately. A car didn’t turn up as there wasn’t one available so I got called back and asked to go to the police station and file a formal report. When I got there the receptionist, IMO, tried very hard to get me to not fill in a report because ‘there was nothing that could be done’.

    Well, there would certainly be nothing done if I didn’t.

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