Open mike 30/11/2011

134 comments on “Open mike 30/11/2011 ”

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1. Pete George 1

   30 November 2011 at 6:40 am

   There’s a distinct lack of South Island in the Labour leadership contenders. Of those that have announced they are contending or have been suggesteed as possible contenders one is from Wellington, one from Waikato and the rest from Auckland.

   More reason for Dunedin and the South Island to do as much as they can to speak up for themselves.

   http://yourdunedin.org/2011/11/30/labour-leadership-and-dunedin/
   • neoleftie 1.1

     30 November 2011 at 6:49 am

     george check your facts better
     Robertson is an ex dunedite went to king’s high school. parker is from duendin as well.
     • chris73 1.1.1

       30 November 2011 at 6:51 am

       Burn
     • mickysavage 1.1.2

       30 November 2011 at 6:55 am

       He he Pete got [deleted].

       [lprent: you know better]
       • mickysavage 1.1.2.1

         30 November 2011 at 7:33 am

         [oops sorry Lprent, did not know it was on the banned list]

         [lprent: Yeah, I got sick of the boring yu r!, NoT!!!, UR!!!!! style of flamewars. I just banned all mention of owned, pwned, and any variant and put many of the standard phrases and words into auto-moderation. That is why they don’t happen here – they are immediate turn offs for everyone apart from participants. ]
         • pollywog 1.1.2.1.1

           30 November 2011 at 3:48 pm

           lol
     • Pete George 1.1.3

       30 November 2011 at 7:07 am

       Robertson has lived in Wellington ‘nearly 14 years’.
       Parker doesn’t mention the south in his Labour bio.
       Neither have stood for a Dunedin seat.

       Parker won Otago in 2002, lost it in 2005, lost Waitaki in 2008 and moved to Auckland.
       • mickysavage 1.1.3.1

         30 November 2011 at 7:11 am

         Pete David Cunliffe was born and bred in Timaru. You should try using those facty things in your comments.
       • neoleftie 1.1.3.2

         30 November 2011 at 7:13 am

         and your point is what – your lack of a grasp of politics, bleeting on about wanting dunedin to be the centre of the universe…wellighton beltway and auckland urban seats are the powerhouses of labour.
         Both parker and robertson have links to dunedin so that is a plus.
         • Pete George 1.1.3.2.1

           30 November 2011 at 7:27 am

           I’m advocating for Dunedin to get better representation, that will only happen if people in Dunedin people push for it as much as possible. Don’t you think regions should stand up for themselves?

           If “wellighton beltway and auckland urban seats are the powerhouses of labour” and the regions are neglected then Labour might end up in the political shithouse. The majority of voters don’t live in Auckland and Wellington.
           • neoleftie 1.1.3.2.1.1

             30 November 2011 at 7:48 am

             yes george and the people spoke for better represenation last saturday and how mnay vote did you get again ( no good on you for standing up mate) Yes as a solid hard core dunedite we need better representation and participation at the local level. Clare is on notice – sharpen up, sharpen the local party structure, organisation and activity…2014 starts today
           • mickysavage 1.1.3.2.1.2

             30 November 2011 at 7:55 am

             Let’s see.  Petey said:

             There’s a distinct lack of South Island in the Labour leadership contenders.

             It is pointed out to him that Parker and Robertson are from Dunedin and Cunliffe from Timaru.

             Petey then says 

             I’m advocating for Dunedin to get better representation.

             Shifting the goalposts again …
             • Pete George …

               30 November 2011 at 8:08 am

               Parker and Cunliffe are from Auckland, Robertson is from Wellington.

               I wasn’t born in Dunedin, but that’s where I live now, that’s why I’m advocating for Dunedin.

               I hope David Clark works for his electorate, even though according to you he’s ‘from Auckland’.
               • logie97 …

                 30 November 2011 at 8:15 am

                 David Clark? which one is he?
                 Nearly as bad as the RNZ reporter this morning insisting that Jim Anderson was the ex member for Wigram.
                 People who profess to be experts, ought to know the basics.
                 • Pete George …

                   30 November 2011 at 8:40 am

                   David Clark is Labour MP for Dunedin North.
                   • logie97 …

                     30 November 2011 at 7:18 pm

                     Woops my bad. My apologies – thought the thread was with the Davids in Auckland.
           • rosy 1.1.3.2.1.3

             30 November 2011 at 8:08 am

             “The majority of voters don’t live in Auckland and Wellington.”
             It’s getting close though. From Stats NZ:
             Auck est. pop 1,486,000
             Well Region 487,680

             But, yes – the regions shouldn’t be neglected, just like all sorts of other groups shouldn’t be neglected, don’t you think?
             • Carol …

               30 November 2011 at 8:19 am

               I am impressed by the way Cunliffe has gone for a ticket and team that the diversity of potential Labour voters. He is not just promoting himself, but himself as leader of a team. He has foregrounded this by fronting to the media with Nania, and standing back while she has her say.
               • Pete George …

                 30 November 2011 at 8:46 am

                 I thought this was a smart approach and obviously well prepared.

                 Cunliffe is obviously one of the top contenders. I’m interested to see what sort of vision he can offer Labour and New Zealand. He’ll need to demonstrate that he can cooperate and work together within and outside the party.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   30 November 2011 at 12:02 pm

                   Why don’t you go save your own fraking useless one man party and leave rebuilding Labour to the Labour Party.
                   • Frida …

                     30 November 2011 at 12:20 pm

                     LOL. I wish there was a “like” button on this blog a.k.a Facebook.
                     Pete is in the same party as the most unprincipled political whore and seeks to lecture the Labour Party on what they should be doing. Bizarre.
           • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3.2.1.4

             30 November 2011 at 9:09 am

             I don’t think that you can really argue that the south is unrepresented. They do have their Labour MPs after all. Not in the leadership challenge? Well, that’s up to the MPs themselves – not Labour.

             The majority of voters don’t live in Auckland and Wellington.

             They don’t live in Dunedin either. They live all over the place so why should one place be raised above everywhere else?
             • lprent …

               30 November 2011 at 10:12 am

               Not to mention that people move all over the place. I was that exception, a native Aucklander. But I spent 4 years studying and working in Dunedin. 3.5 in Hamilton studying. When I was running around businesses in Dunedin it was surprising how many people came from elsewhere. There were more from-heres in Hamilton.

               Lyn spent even more years working and studying in Dunedin as well and she was from Invercargill.

               I have family down in Dunedin who moved from the north island.

               I suspect that Pete sees himself as the representative of the parochial stay at homes of Dunedin. What’s the bet that is a constituency similar in size to the one he was seeking as the kiwiblog candidate?

               Updated: I missed a sentence bouncing around the bus. Added it in italics.
               • Pete George …

                 30 November 2011 at 1:21 pm

                 I’ve lived in Dunedin less than half my life, and about 2/3 my working life having worked in various places including Auckland so I don’t consider myself ‘stay at home’.

                 The constituency for what I’m doing here includes Clare Curran and David Clark who have both expressed willingness to participate, in fact most MPs and candidates from Dunedin have said they will be in on a stronger combined Dunedin political voice. Similar regional representative initiatives are being tried elsewhere too.
                 • lprent …

                   30 November 2011 at 3:22 pm

                   My point was that parochial politics is all well and good if you’re trying to gain a local constituency. But it is bound to fail because kiwi’s move around all of the time. They tend to laugh at that kind of stupidity.

                   But trying to say that people currently living in other parts of damn country don’t understand the issues of Dunedin is dumb at best. There are a hell of a lot of us who have lived, studied and/or worked there for extended periods of time as well as in other parts of the country.

                   The Labour party needs to look for their best candidates, and the idea that we need outsiders who don’t even contribute work to the party throwing such spurious ideas around as a geographical quota system will be treated with the contempt that you deserve…

                   And if Clare or David Clark were daft enough to seriously raise it, then I’d pass the same judgement on them for exactly the same reason. I’d moderate it by the fact that they actually contribute to Labour. However it would still be a dumbarse idea – something that you seem to specialize in.
           • Lanthanide 1.1.3.2.1.5

             30 November 2011 at 9:27 am

             Yes Pete, lets force all of the Labour MPs from the south island put their name into the hat for the leadership, regardless of whether they want it or are capable of it.

             Numpty.
             • Pete George …

               30 November 2011 at 9:52 am

               Not suggesting anything like that, I’ve said that neither of the Dunedin MPs come close to being considered.

               O’Connor has been mentioned because he is seen as representing ordinary people more than the Wellington Labour gaggle, but isn’t putting himself forward.

               What would Dalziel’s chances be of deputy?
               • Lanthanide …

                 30 November 2011 at 12:17 pm

                 You weren’t just making the observation, you were making the observation as if it were a bad thing that *needs* to be changed.
           • mik e 1.1.3.2.1.6

             30 November 2011 at 6:01 pm

             Pathetic and Gulible Dunedin has only 100,ooo people so fact of life .
             With a 132 votes you should ask Shonkey if he’ll move over and let you become leader come in on the National list.
         • Pete George 1.1.3.2.2

           30 November 2011 at 7:32 am

           And it’s not just that, Labour is getting a lot of criticism for it’s Dunedin slippage. More on worrying Dunedin South numbers.

           If the response to pointing out things like this is abuse and denial the southern decline of Labour may continue to exceed the northern decline.
           • McFlock 1.1.3.2.2.1

             30 November 2011 at 1:54 pm

             Seriously? You link-whore an Otago Daily Tory editorial with a line and a half on each book-end? 
              
             That’s about as reliable as quoting Farrar for impartial commentary, and your quote:original work ratio isn’t worthy of a first-year.
               

             But then, even the ODT also had to acknowledge the effects of the low turnout and shifting demographics – comments you handily overlooked in your rush to blame labour.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.3.3

         30 November 2011 at 9:26 am

         Pete George doesn’t know shit before he opens his mouth. Robertson and Parker have deep Dunedin family roots.
         • McFlock 1.1.3.3.1

           30 November 2011 at 1:56 pm

           Course, he’d know that if he was from Dunedin himself.
             
           PG is beginning to piss me off, claiming he knows a damned thing about representing Dunedin.
            
         • mik e 1.1.3.3.2

           30 November 2011 at 6:02 pm

           David parker ran a business for many years in dunedin
     • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 1.1.4

       30 November 2011 at 8:20 am

       David Cunliffe is from Timaru and visits his mum there regularly. His late father was the well known Anglican minister there. He was branded the “Red Reverend” by the Timaru Natz, who reviled him for continually saying that Social Justice was a Christian imperative
   • Frida 1.2

     30 November 2011 at 9:17 am

     I was at university in Dunedin with Grant (Otago University President he was) and I’m sure he went to school in Dunedin.
     I also summer clerked in David Parker’s DUNEDIN law firm.
     So you might want to check your facts there Pete.
     • Pete George 1.2.1

       30 November 2011 at 9:22 am

       I’d be happy to see any sign that Parker is a strong advocate for Dunedin. He may have been, but over the last few years he’s been invisible here.
       • Frida 1.2.1.1

         30 November 2011 at 10:26 am

         So what’s your point exactly? You are a fawning fan of John Key. What kind of advocate is he for anyone but big business white guys? Yet I don’t see you ever calling him to task.

         Parker was speaking the right language this morning on National Radio about the widening gap between rich and poor. That suggests to me he (and the others) are keen to advocate for ALL New Zealanders, a trait much lacking in the current bunch of clowns.
         • Pete George 1.2.1.1.1

           30 November 2011 at 1:30 pm

           I’m not ‘a fawning fan of Key’ and have taken him to task when I see fit, especially over his intransigence on super eligibility age and making snap prouncements without considering what people may want.

           Talking about the widening gap between rich and poor is not the “right language”. It’s election sloganeering.

           Discussing ways of dealing with the problems of the poor, those in poverty, how to get more and better paying jobs, how to deal with benefit dependency and abuse, practical ways of dealing with tax avoidance, trying to reverse rampant consumerism, dealing with the many tentacles of violence, acohol and drug abuse, that’s the sort of language that needs airing in my opinion. The difficult questions, not simplistic slogans.
           • Frida 1.2.1.1.1.1

             30 November 2011 at 1:42 pm

             Well, quite clearly the Labour party has policies to address all of those things. As Goff outlined during the campaign if anyone in the media took their nose out of Key’s arse to listen to him. Parker was speaking for 2 minutes on Morning Report.
             I don’t see anything in National policies to address any of the issues you raise. And as for United Future, still not sure what or who the hell they stand for. Except Peter Dunne himself. First class trougher.
           • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.2

             30 November 2011 at 2:04 pm

             You ass, pete. You started saying “There’s a distinct lack of South Island in the Labour leadership contenders.”
              
             When demonstrated to be wrong you then shrink “South Island” down to “Dunedin”. 
              

             When still demonstrated to be wrong you question whether the leading Labour MPs with dunedin roots actively advocate for Dunedin. 

              
             Then you take the first opportunity to bail out of the topic and slide back into the party nosensicalities that substitute for policy.
             • felix …

               30 November 2011 at 2:22 pm

               Pete thinks we don’t have scroll buttons so only his most recent comment counts.
               • vto …

                 30 November 2011 at 2:26 pm

                 I have come to the strong opinion that pete simply loves the attention and nothing more.
                 • mickysavage …

                   30 November 2011 at 2:40 pm

                   Maybe we should have a DNFTT day with Petey.
           • Afewknowthetruth 1.2.1.1.1.3

             30 November 2011 at 2:10 pm

             PG

             You are a deluded fool, someone who thinks the system has a future even as the clear signs of collapses are all around them.

             Presumably your current state of delusion is a consequence of ignoracne of the facts. If you are not scientifuically illiterate I suggest you stop behaving as though you are.

             The facts can easily be obtained by an Internet search in the topics:

             Peak Oil

             Arithmetic, population and energy (Albert Bartlett).

             Energy Bulletin

             Nature Bats Last

             Abrupt Climate Change

             Of course the acqusition of knowledge is very much dependent on the desire to acquire it. My experience of political candidates is that they run from knowledge and truth as fast as possible.

             If you are scientifically illiterate then it is probably too late to do anything about it.
   • millsy 1.3

     30 November 2011 at 10:36 pm

     You know Peter, perhaps some sort of South Island assembly is the way to go, you are right that the South Island needs some sort of voice, and perhaps devolving political power to North and South Island assemblies (yes, Im talking about state governments) could be a long term solution. Needs more thought though, by people who know more about this stuff than I ever will 🙂
2. Bored 2

   30 November 2011 at 7:17 am

   Whilst Standardistas are scrapping over the labour leadership perjhaps we should reflect the leadership of Greece and Italy (and soon to be Spain etc)….ALL unelected technocrats in what are supposed to be democracies…banksters and banksters appointees to a man. Apparently as the austerity goes down riots are expected and the UK Foreign Offiice is planning evacuations.

   We have a little bit of that going on here too, Canterbury’s resources being doled out by an appointed dictatorship displacing a democratic body. Funny, we too have a bankster for PM.
   • tc 2.1

     30 November 2011 at 7:37 am

     Yup and installed rapidly once the greece PM decided the people should have a say……woah there said euro bullies, can’t have that off you go and we will put our boy in.
   • vto 2.2

     30 November 2011 at 8:35 am

     If ever there was an example of boiling the frog this is it.

     It is 1930’s Europe. The world is collapsing around us – at such a slow rate that few even recognise what is happenning. We all just blithely get up in the morning, eat our weetbix, slurp the coffee and wander off to our dailies… to be expected I suppose. My point is that people will not realise and read the details and between the lines of the news until it slaps them in the face and the patrols are in the street.

     Dictator in Italy.

     Dictator in Greece.

     Dictator in Canterbury.
   • Willie Maley 2.3

     30 November 2011 at 8:45 am

     A piece on a couple of charmers who are now in a position of real power in Greece.
     http://tiny.cc/yqrwk
     • vto 2.3.1

       30 November 2011 at 8:55 am

       And there we go. Thanks Willie, confirmation of both dictatorship and 1930’s Europe.

       Alive right now today.

       Time to wake up folks.
     • Bored 2.3.2

       30 November 2011 at 10:13 am

       Truly ugly, tears and broken heads coming. I predict he will get lynched in the best Balkan tradition a la Ceausescu.
     • Colonial Viper 2.3.3

       30 November 2011 at 10:22 am

       And backing them? The likes of BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank and JP Morgan. The executive arms of the top 1% of the 1%.
     • In Vino Veritas 2.3.4

       30 November 2011 at 11:18 am

       This is the inevitable outcome of Socialism, lower standard of living after artificially increasing living standards with other peoples money to remain in government. Other peoples money runs out, and the socialist mirage dissappears.
       • The Voice of Reason 2.3.4.1

         30 November 2011 at 11:24 am

         Scary as that socialism stuff sounds to you IVV, I, for one, am prepared to see it tried for the first time in NZ. Where do we sign up for it? It’s gotta be better than the crap we’ve put up with under capitalism.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.3.4.2

         30 November 2011 at 11:35 am

         IVV, that article shows what happens when capitalists get their way not what happens when socialists get their way.
       • Colonial Viper 2.3.4.3

         30 November 2011 at 12:11 pm

         Crony cartel capitalism, IVV, the type you support.
       • vto 2.3.4.4

         30 November 2011 at 2:16 pm

         Foolish vino man. It is the capitalist system which has led to this. You need to school up on the ways of the world and the ways of the bankers and money printers. It is that which has led to this and your inability to see that says more about you than anything else.
         • In Vino Veritas 2.3.4.4.1

           30 November 2011 at 2:25 pm

           Of course it was the capitalist system and “the money men” that led to this. The capitalist system and the “money men” forced the goverments in question to borrow money to sustain an unsustainable standard of living for people that hadn’t earned the standard of living they were getting. The governments in question voted in again and again on the back of promises that they could only borrow to deliver on. Other peoples money then ran out since the Socialists reneged on paying back.

           My vision is 20\20 vto, perhaps it is you who should have their eyes checked.
           • McFlock 2.3.4.4.1.1

             30 November 2011 at 2:37 pm

             It sounds like you think the real problem is democracy, in vino bombast.

             And the “oh, if you didn’t want the harm you shouldn’t have done it” is a rationalisation used by drug dealers across the planet – give out cheap samples to lure the unwary, mislead them as to the true contents of the product, and then keep selling to them once they’re locked in. And when they finally overdose, say that it’s their own fault and start the cycle again with some other schmuck.
             • In Vino Veritas …

               30 November 2011 at 3:34 pm

               “It sounds like you think the real problem is democracy”.

               McFlock, quite the contrary, I have absolutely no issue with democracy, I am only pointing out that the failings of Socialism. Your use of drugs as a comparison is flawed. Drugs are, in most forms addictive and the users find extreme difficulty to withdraw from them. You then go on to blame the dealers for the users choices and stupidity.

               Funnily enough, and ironically, Socialism preys on greed. “Socialism can give the poor a better standard of living” is the mantra. Except Socialists need to appeal beyond just the poor, deep into the middle class. Then it becomes greed on the part of these people. They get to vote themselves an income, and human nature being what it is, they do. The Socialist government, unable to divide wealth indefinitely, needs to pay for its largesse, ergo borrowing. And as I say, other peoples money runs out sooner or later.
               • McFlock …

                 30 November 2011 at 4:01 pm

                 Firstly, even if your perspective was accurate, the “socialist” governments were ” voted in again and again “. How is this not a fundamental problem with democracy?

                 Secondly, many people find extreme difficulty to withdraw from debt, just as others do from drugs. And are you genuinely saying that the dealer is not at fault if someone is “stupid” enough to start using drugs (if so, then my analogy was perfectly apt in that regard)?
                  
                 And how is socialism “preying on greed” – surely it’s the users’/voters’ own “choices and stupidity” that are the problem? i.e. “democracy”? You seem to be blaming socialist politicians for the choices and stupidity of the electorate…
                 • In Vino Veritas …

                   30 November 2011 at 4:17 pm

                   “people find extreme difficulty to withdraw from debt”

                   Debt is not a physical addiction. Moving on from the drug analogy, these people choose to incur debt to “improve” their standard of living. When it goes pear shaped, they have no one else to blame bar themselves. Ditto the Socialist government themselves. Again, I am not attacking democracy at all, if a Socialist government is voted in and Socialism fails, as it invariably will, blame does not lie outside the people and their elected government. Ergo, capitalism cannot be blamed for the failure of Socialism.

                   “You seem to be blaming socialist politicians for the choices and stupidity of the electorate…”

                   I am blaming Socialism itself (though in that breath, socialist politicians are culpable for perpetuating a political system that cannot sustain itself without lowering standards of living). People will invariably vote themselves income/benefits given the choice and when payment for this income\benefit is deferred. Is this stupidity? cleverness? greed? all of the above? If the choice is not given, there is no option but to live within one’s means.
                   • McFlock …

                     30 November 2011 at 4:27 pm

                     The “addiction” of debt is when all one’s income goes to service the interest, rather than paying down the principle.

                      

                     People will invariably vote themselves income/benefits given the choice and when payment for this income\benefit is deferred.

                         

                     So, on the one hand “Socialism” is the problem when the electorate vote for to go into debt collectively, but “capitalism” is not the problem when individuals choose to go into dept individually, although on a population basis. And I’d suggest that the misleading politician is equivalent to the misleading sales rep. 
                           

                      
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     30 November 2011 at 6:14 pm

                     Debt is not a physical addiction. Moving on from the drug analogy, these people choose to incur debt to “improve” their standard of living. When it goes pear shaped, they have no one else to blame bar themselves.

                     More BS x 10

                     1) Debt IS like a physical addiction. In the old days debt used to be cancelled when you died. Now the creditors have so much power they can make generation after generation suffer with the debt until it is paid off, just like a P or heroin addiction.

                     2) People don’t CHOOSE their debt, especially in circumstances where wages and salaries have been SUPRESSED, and they are told that they need to borrow just to keep up with the Joneses (or simply to make ends meet) by DEBT PEDDLERS.

                     3) Credit card companies and other creditors (including investment banks) have placed masses of traps and stings in credit contracts that no ordinary person can be responsible for understanding; further when an irresponsible loan has been made to someone which they are unlikely to ever pay back it is the CREDITOR who is at fault.

                     I’ll give you another clue. Insolvent criminal organisations like most major investment banks of today should not be able to make and enforce credit contracts. Debt which is illegal and created by illegal organisations cannot be collected upon.
               • AAMC …

                 30 November 2011 at 4:02 pm

                 I’m not going to argue in support of Socialism, but you should consider for a moment the role of debt in Capitalism also, given that it has been funded exclusively by debt creation for thirty years, you know, that bubble that recently burst. German savers needed lenders to foist their credit on in order to further capitalize on it, the Capitalists needed debtors, and of coarse in USA, Oz, NZ et al, our consumption and property speculation was also fueled by debt.

                 It’s the lenders and the borrowers who are addicted to the drug of debt….

                 And the laugh of coarse, that liquidity in the Anglo Saxon economies has been funded by Communist Chinese savers and Wahhabi Saudi oil barons, open the blinds IVV! The Cold War is over, both ideas failed!
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 30 November 2011 at 4:13 pm

                 The Socialist government, unable to divide wealth indefinitely, needs to pay for its largesse, ergo borrowing.

                 The reason why we end up borrowing is because of the existence of the rich. No other reason. Without them taking the wealth from everyone else we’d be able to afford a hell of a lot more for everybody.
           • mik e 2.3.4.4.1.2

             30 November 2011 at 6:11 pm

             Ivvy leaguer which socialists were these drunken fool the ones in NZ have cleaned up Nationals borrow and Hope policy every time and it will be the same in 2014 the asset sales won’t bring in the money our commodity driven economy won’t either slick slogans are just empty promises just like your head .Borrowing Bills English has managed less than 0.1% growth and borrowed to the hilt now he has to pay it back Austerity will lead to negative growth which Dipton will actually end up having to borrow more and not pay any thing back!
       • AAMC 2.3.4.5

         30 November 2011 at 3:10 pm

         Bullshit IVV, the meme doesn’t work, German wage suppression causing trade imbalances, predatory German & French banks, tax evasion and a drop in tax take as a byproduct of a global recession caused by Crony Capitalists etc etc etc go much further to explaining it than your convenient Right Wing Meme, why is it you guys all seem so easily swayed by simple sloganeering?
       • AAMC 2.3.4.6

         30 November 2011 at 3:16 pm

         Some stats on your Socialists IVV, bet all those neo-lib economies would be envious of those results, oh, no… hang on a minuite, they’re not trying to trickle down are they, they’re trying to redistribute from the 99% to the 1%…

         http://product.datastream.com/economics/gateway.aspx?guid=b0820cdf-7e27-4a24-8615-89c21d55adf1&chartname=Sweden%20economic%20overview&groupname=Sweden&date=20111129&owner=ZRTN179&action=REFRESH
         • In Vino Veritas 2.3.4.6.1

           30 November 2011 at 4:34 pm

           Interesting set of graphs AAMC. How about you try this one, a speech by the Swedish Prime Minister of the time, given at the London School of Economics in 2008:

           “Instead, I would argue that the explanation lies in other factors.

           The vital balance between the institutions in the model disappeared and socialism swept over Swedish society.”

           http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/10296/a/99193

           Have a read, be enlightened.
           • McFlock 2.3.4.6.1.1

             30 November 2011 at 5:09 pm

             Rhetoric is the same as here, with one major change: “welfare dependency” in NZ is regarded as “exclusion” in Sweden, with a clear shifting of the implicit responsibility.
              
             Although I agree that NZ should work towards achieving Sweden’s Gini coefficient and union membership rates.
              
           • vto 2.3.4.6.1.2

             30 November 2011 at 5:14 pm

             In vino, there is more debt in the world than there is money to repay it. Ask yourself how that happenned and what is required to rectify the situation. It may help explain to you the insolvent ponzi scheme that is the debt-as-money system we have. This is the crux of the problem – the capitalist creation of the current money creation system. It aint nothing to do with any socialist system. A bigger picture view is needed to consider this situation than simply saying “dumb socialists shouldn’t borrow so much” (and on that note how does NZ’s recent “socialist” labour government paying down debt and the current “capitalist” national government taking on debt fit into your simplistic view on this?).
           • mik e 2.3.4.6.1.3

             30 November 2011 at 6:17 pm

             Sweden has more and steadier economic growth than our economy.
             Latin Lunatic
             Child poverty doesn’t exist in Sweden as well Child poverty didn’t exist in this country until Muldoons Sinking lid then Roger Dougal ass brought back 19th century Neo liberal elitism
           • AAMC 2.3.4.6.1.4

             30 November 2011 at 9:34 pm

             I’d rather be informed by current data than speeches by Prime Ministers…
   • joe90 2.4

     30 November 2011 at 12:39 pm

     Yanis Varoufakis, University of Athens, talks to Crooked Timber’s Henry Farrell.

     http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/39995?in=12:28&out=17:41
   • AAMC 2.5

     30 November 2011 at 3:12 pm

     Here an article Naomi Klein tweeted a link to about Fascism, Austerity & Greece, haven’t had a chance to read yet but it came highly recommended.

     http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/mark-ames-austerity-fascism-in-greece-%E2%80%93-the-real-1-doctrine.html
3. logie97 3

   30 November 2011 at 7:50 am

   Mixed ownership model.

   Now here is something interesting from Europe.
   James Murdoch reappointed head of BSkyB
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10769795

   “Murdoch had been expected to be re-elected as News Corp owns 39 percent of BSkyB, but the number of votes against him was unprecedented.”

   So a minority group, but with a substantial shareholding, could have a major influence on policy. That’s how Key’s mates work. New Zealand, you were warned.
   • Jackal 3.1

     30 November 2011 at 10:45 am

     I wonder when they will go full regalia with the jack boots and everything. Makes me all warm inside watching that sort of thing knowing the youth will soon be working for $10.40 an hour.
     • Jackal 3.1.1

       30 November 2011 at 11:42 am

       Sorry! Forgot to add
       • Jackal 3.1.1.1

         30 November 2011 at 11:44 am

         …sarcasm.
   • In Vino Veritas 3.2

     30 November 2011 at 2:33 pm

     Warned of what logie? That whatever majority required by the company’s constitution voted for him? A minority cannot vote in an officer. Should the privatised company’s constitution require >50% to appoint an officer, then the Governments proposed 51% shareholding will have the controlling say on who gets the position, though traditionally, a major shareholder will have at least a Board Member to represent their interests. Your comment is just scaremongering nonsense.

     You’d obviously be upset then, if Maori bought jointly into one or more of the privatised companies and had Board representation?
4. Half Crown Millionare 4

   30 November 2011 at 9:05 am

   I think the Labour party are mad, they should have kept Phil Goff for at least a year, forget about a leadership challenge, and concentrated on going for the National’s jugular by getting out there on the second and half second targeting that a@#$hole called Dunne, the Maori Party and Banks and the promises National has already started to break ie Forest & Bird.
   If the msm do not cooperate and run another campaign of mis information like they have for the last three years bypass the a$%#@holes by posting on Facebook & Twitter and any other form of media that can bypass the msm.
   By having a leadership challenge now they are playing into the hands of the msm who along with right wing commentators were telling us yesterday that Phil Goff was resigning, before it was announced by Phil Goff.
   National and msm will run 2014 election the same way as this one. A beauty contest, so
   therefore as Phil Goff is going to be replaced we need someone with not only the charisma, but also the necessary intellect and debating skills.
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     30 November 2011 at 10:25 am

     I also think Goff should have stayed for a time. But in the end he had to make the decision, and if he felt that many of his caucus colleagues did not want him to stay on that would have been that.

     Strategically I think you understand the issues however and it is a mistake that Labour is losing him as leader at this juncture.
   • Willie Maley 4.2

     30 November 2011 at 11:15 am

     +1
   • prism 4.3

     30 November 2011 at 12:50 pm

     Half millionaire
     Goff hasn’t got your head of steam and aggression. If you want things to happen you need to have a curmudgeon like yourself in the political seat. We need a balance – some civilised statements of policy and a large helping of let’s have some vision and get on with new, practical, worthwhile projects good for NZ growth and all citizens, and stop bugg…. around.
5. freedom 5

   30 November 2011 at 9:24 am

   posting this again as the MSM do not seem interestd in the article’s clear message to NZ workers
   (you lost, we won) and (ACC? oh that’s a goner too)
   http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/80-starting-out-wage-way-ck-105234
6. Ianupnorth 6

   30 November 2011 at 9:52 am

   The tragic Gary Speed suicide, coupled with the election result, have left me pretty down in the mouth. Then I come here and all I see is bloody Pete George back to his usual self. Please Pete, could you take a break or just stop going on. It is very tedious, your constant stirring.
   • Carol 6.1

     30 November 2011 at 10:00 am

     I gave up on reading most of PG’s comments long ago. He has nothing to contribute to the debates. Just a lot of irrelevant noise.
     • joe90 6.1.1

       30 November 2011 at 10:20 am

       ditto
       • LynW 6.1.1.1

         30 November 2011 at 11:58 am

         ditto
         • Frida 6.1.1.1.1

           30 November 2011 at 1:45 pm

           Bit like his leader. About to make the same decision myself.
           • Tigger 6.1.1.1.1.1

             30 November 2011 at 3:04 pm

             Amen! I hate squashing someone’s free speech but he’s like some crazy man screaming outside your house day and night. At some point he’s got to be moved on.
   • Willie Maley 6.2

     30 November 2011 at 11:16 am

     Ian, well said.
   • gingercrush 6.3

     30 November 2011 at 1:48 pm

     Well I don’t think many of the left-wing commentators that constantly bite back or even bite first are any better.
     • Colonial Viper 6.3.1

       30 November 2011 at 3:25 pm

       😎
7. Jackal 7

   30 November 2011 at 11:18 am

   National’s demoralizing propaganda

   Yesterday John Key did one of his turgid video journals in which he describes people who are opposed to asset sales as being “scared”.
   • Uturn 7.1

     30 November 2011 at 11:30 am

     Once I saw that he’d be yappin’ for 3:38min I didn’t bother to proceed. Who needs that noise? I think Id go mad with frustration trying to educate people that ignoring your people isn’t a trait of leadership. Fran O’Sullivan seems to think so: “…he is prepared to take a leadership role on this score.” Once again for Fran, and for all others, corporate behaviour does not define the meaning of words. Managers are not leaders. Bullying is not team building. Repeated slogans of ignorance is not reasoning. Morality is not a product of profit.
     • prism 7.1.1

       30 November 2011 at 12:53 pm

       Business people with ambition are always yapping on about wanting ‘leadership’. I think it’s probably a code word for legal moves to bring in 10% personal and company tax.
       • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1

         30 November 2011 at 1:40 pm

         No, it’s code for bring back dictatorship and we’ll be the dictators. Absolute rule doesn’t work without the help of the rich and powerful.
8. freedom 8

   30 November 2011 at 11:19 am

   although it is not a legal petition it is a start, and hopefully will provoke those with resources to advance the urgent need for a full petition and a binding referendum

   http://www.averagekiwi.com/?p=631
   • Jackal 8.1

     30 November 2011 at 11:46 am

     You can also sign the petition to save the Denniston Plateau from open cast coal mining here.
     • freedom 8.1.1

       30 November 2011 at 12:32 pm

       ty, and shared
9. travellerev 9

   30 November 2011 at 11:42 am

   So what do J P Morgan Chase, Deutsche bank, Goldman Sachs and John Key have in common. Oh oops, a collapsing Bank of America and the collapse of the Reserve currency. So now is the time to loot the world by buying real world assets, preferably for cents on the dollar, with the afore mention soon to be dumped and worthless toiletpaper… I mean US dollar.

   And aren’t they lucky John Key can help them here!

   http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/with-bank-of-america-on-the-verge-of-breaching-5-00-my-question-of-the-day-is/
10. Jackal 10

    30 November 2011 at 11:54 am

    Ex SFO chief prosecutor charged

    The former chief prosecutor of the Serious Fraud Office has been ordered to hand over her passport after being charged with using forged documents.
    • travellerev 10.1

      30 November 2011 at 12:14 pm

      I think that the SFO should start on John Key and his bankster mates!
      • prism 10.1.1

        30 November 2011 at 12:55 pm

        They’ll probably be too busy at the SFO studying their own navels. Is that a bit of fluff I see?
    • joe90 10.2

      30 November 2011 at 1:16 pm

      Heh..

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6061417/SFO-worker-on-forgery-charges

      At the time Feeley was under fire from the media for sending an email to staff celebrating prosecutions against Bridgecorp and inviting them to drink a $70 bottle of champagne that had been “left behind” in Bridgecorp’s offices.

      The State Services Commission called Feeley’s actions “ill-advised” but accepted he had not acted with “dishonest intent”.

      The charges laid against Killeen show she is accused of supplying the National Business Review and the New Zealand Herald with another email, which appeared to also be written by Feeley.

      Police allege Killeen accessed SFO computer systems and forged that email, before sending it to the media organisations.

      The New Zealand Herald reported that the contents of the alleged forgery would have damaged Feeley’s reputation further, but as he denied ever writing it an investigation was begun into its origins.

      Killeen was made redundant last year after restructuring at the SFO.
11. Afewknowthetruth 11

    30 November 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Did I scare everyone away from the Paradign Shift thread?

    Not too much truth agian, I hope.

    Regarding the failure of people to respond:

    ‘If you hear a fire alarm you should ignore it and carry on with whatever you are doing. Only when the paint on the door of the room you are in starts to turn black should you begin to think about your escape plan.’ That was tongue in cheek, of course. However, studies have repeatedly demonstrated the reluctance of people to respond to alarms. Upon hearing a fire alarm, rather than taking decisive action, subjects in groups tend to seek cues from others; if others ignore the alarm, they also tend to. That is particularly so if an authority figure is present and that person ignores the alarm, or even worse, tells everyone to ignore the alarm. On the other hand, if an authority figure suggests the venue be evacuated immediately, all those present usually respond quickly.

    We thus begin to understand why only a tiny minority of people in western societies have responded to numerous alarms which have been sounded by aware people on a wide range of issues over many decades: authority figures have consistently ignored the alarms, so those who look to them for guidance have ignored the alarms; the corporate media have downplayed the significance of the alarms, have lampooned them, or have not reported them at all. When we add the general observations that people believe what they want to believe, and that doing nothing is normally the easiest option, we see a recipe for disaster.

    Having been transported across Europe in railway wagons, most Jews arriving at camps in Poland had their possessions and clothing taken from them. Even as they stood naked in the ‘shower’ rooms, many had little idea what would happen next. Only when the gas canisters began releasing their poison did they fully comprehend the nature of their predicament.

    All the evidence indicates it will be much the same for the bulk of humanity when it comes to dealing with the major issues of our times. We now face the most testing time in all of history, for which everyone who is in a position to prepare should do so. However, it seems that only when everything they think they have has been taken away from them, only when they have lost everything they think they are entitled to, will most people realise the full extent of their predicament. It seems that only when they have lost ‘everything’ will most people living in industrialised societies fully realise the extent to which they have been lied to and misled.’

    And on fascism and abuse of populations::

    ‘In the 1940s the Germans established death camps to eliminate several million of those the Nazi leadership regarded as degenerate or not useful as slaves. After the war, many Jews who attempted to reach Palestine were held in detention camps by the British. Some freed Jews who attempted to circumvent the quota system and enter Palestine were arrested and deported back to Germany, where they were held in detention camps similar to those they had been freed from.

    In Cambodia the Pol Pot regime attempted ‘the great leap backwards’ by breaking up families and forcing people onto the land. Arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, torture and murder became commonplace, with hundreds of thousands of people disappearing in the ‘Killing Fields’.

    September 11, 1973. Chile. The beginning of a period during which South American nations were subjected to military rule, whereby thousands of ordinary people ‘disappeared’, sometimes after an extended period of torture, because they were socialist or because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    At least five million innocent people have died as a consequence of wars initiated by the US since 1945. In recent times Americans have murdered, tortured, and abducted countless numbers of innocent people and held them for years without trial. The US has used depleted uranium and other weapons banned under international treaties in Iraq and elsewhere. The UK, Australia, Canada, NZ and numerous other ‘civilised Christian nations’ have been party to, and have supported these illegal and immoral actions.

    Many people believe that a secretive group of global elites have a ‘New World Order’ plan to gain total control of the world. Under this plan, everyone would use the same currency (set up by them), eat the same food (genetically engineered by them) and be subservient to a single world government (controlled by them).

    It is surely our duty, and in our own self-interest, to ensure that wherever we live, we do not end up governed by despots who control our food, our water and our liberty, and subject ordinary citizens to arbitrary arrest, torture and murder.

    Most of us live just a few steps away from such tyranny.’

    http://www.publishme.co.nz/shop/theeasyway-p-684.html
12. LynW 12

    30 November 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Surprise surprise!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6061110/NZs-shadow-economy-on-global-charts
    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      30 November 2011 at 4:37 pm

      “This new research demonstrates how important it is to tackle tax evasion and the tax havens that help wealthy individuals and organisations escape from contributing to the services that directly benefit them – from the health and education systems that support their workforces, to the roads that ship their goods to markets, to the courts of law that enforce their contracts or to the police who protect their property.”

      As I’ve said, we can’t afford the rich.
13. randal 13

    30 November 2011 at 1:53 pm

    no doubt about it.
    this election was rigged.
    when the acting profession mounts a campaign against video piracy and the minister says you are getting ufb so you can nudge nudge wink wink download pirated movies then you know that something is rotten around here.
14. KJT 14

    30 November 2011 at 3:01 pm

    I see National are trying to get assets sold ASAP. Before public opposition has a chance to build.

    How do we get a petition for a referendum against the sales going?

    It will have to be non-partisan to involve the National voters who know that selling your tools, to buy a days groceries, is insane.

    Especially as in a couple of years national will claim TINA to sell the remainder after their policies have ramped up our debt.
    • tc 14.1

      30 November 2011 at 3:43 pm

      The plan was always to go like the wind as soon as the GG can annoint the coalition, prepare for urgency people and lots of already prepared stuff being slammed through.

      look at the papers/TV etc it’s all about labour, a party they ignored whilst in opposition until they got a tad huffy over teacup gate and that was probably faked outrage at that. It’s more diversionary tactics.

      Watch shonkey and his dealing room as this is where they will do some serious damage with his dodgy ‘mandate’…..I’m glad winnie’s around for once.

      So when are we going to hear the teacup tapes and get some of those treasury papers released eh !
15. just saying 15

    30 November 2011 at 3:23 pm

    http://www.pundit.co.nz/

    An excellent (and cheering) analysis of the election results from Nicky Hagar.
    Well worth reading the whole thing, but I’ll leave a little teaser:

    The second and related issue facing National is its terribly thin majority in Parliament, which looks set to drop to a single seat after special votes (with Peter Dune and John Banks included).

    People unfamiliar with Parliament could presume that a one-seat lead is enough. But the mechanics of running a government are more complex than that. Yes, they can (probably) win crucial votes. Yet a terrible friction slows down processes and there is much more scope for mischief and disruption. This is bad news for National. The bare 50% coalition achieved on Saturday (with virtually 50% against them), even when Key was at the height of his political support, is the reason Key has been moaning about the election results in the media: blaming the electoral system when his real problem is the lack of a natural majority coalition. Governing just got much less fun. (By the way, the Maori Party is therefore in a much stronger bargaining position than it was in the last three years. Watch to see if they realise this.)
    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      30 November 2011 at 3:32 pm

      (By the way, the Maori Party is therefore in a much stronger bargaining position than it was in the last three years. Watch to see if they realise this.)

      I’m pretty sure that they do.

      Last time around, the NATs, Mp, UF, ACT totalled a magnificent 69 MPs at their height. 68 after they lost Harawira.

      Now what might NAct pull together this time. 59 NATs (loss of 1 after specials), 3 Mp, 1 UF, 1ACT. That’s a much reduced 64 MPs, in total.

      Less the 3 Mp votes and Key is frakked.
    • Draco T Bastard 15.2

      30 November 2011 at 4:39 pm

      Actual link
    • Carol 15.3

      30 November 2011 at 5:26 pm

      Thanks for the link. Very good article and comments.

      I agree with Hagar on his analysis of National’s need to disguise much of their unpopular agenda, and the way they conduct smear campaigns through proxies. This makes it so hypocritical when National and other right wingers go on about Labour doing negative campaigning. At least Labour is more direct and doesn’t distance themselves from attacks on National/Key by franchising it out to proxies.

      I remember watching Question Time frequently in the period leading up to the 2008 election campaign. It was quite obvious to me that Rodney Hide was doggedly going after Peters, leading the media on the issues, and attempting to take out Winston, and in the process smear Clark and her government.

      As Hagar says, Winston was dogged by scandal for months (some deserved, some a beat up) all coming to a crescendo as voting day approached.

      And, of course, Hide’s reward was Epsom. But the gratitude from National didn’t last the full term.

      Furthermore, on the 2008 campaign against Peters, as Hagar says,

      It would have been different if the media had been initiating the investigations themselves (and more so if all parties had received the same scrutiny), but what was going on was a dodgy collaboration between National and ACT and the media organisations, with quite a few of the attacks fed to the media directly by ACT Party leader Rodney Hide.

      Peters must now be thinking, revenge is a dish best served cold.

      I hope Hagar’s right that national and ey have now moved beyond the height of their popularity, and will struggle through a turbulent term with their slim parliamentary majority.
    • ianmac 15.4

      30 November 2011 at 8:05 pm

      Read it just saying and what an interesting perspective from Nicky. I like to quote the ultimate Optimist who yells out to friends he spotted through an open window as he hurtles in free fall from the 10th story, “Alright so far!”
      Now I think of that every time that John Key appears onscreen.
      “How’s it going John?”
      “Alright so far,” grins John.
      The very interesting angle will be how the Maori Party, who consult with their grass-roots over the coming week, actually decide to act. Risk oblivion if they support National or risk oblivion if the don’t.
16. the pink postman 16

    30 November 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Over heard in Cambridge yesterday ,From an unknown person/
    Key went abroad and made $50 million .Shearer went abroad and saved 50 million lives, Interesting ,and this over heard in Blue ,Blue, Cambridge.
17. the pink postman 17

    30 November 2011 at 4:08 pm

    I see Tory spokeman Garner is already starting his new anti Labour campaign .Last night on TV3 he was already stating that there would be a
    “blood bath ” in Labour. The Labour Party needs to challenge this creep now ,tell him to get stuffed and refuse to have any dealings with him just withhold any news from the labour party until we get a fair go from this National Party Hack
18. uke 18

    30 November 2011 at 5:11 pm

    A new report shows that in terms of tax evasion, NZ comes 51 on a list 145 countries:

     
    New Zealand’s “shadow economy” is worth over $20 billion and the tax that is lost from it is equivalent to 44 per cent of the country’s health budget, a European anti-tax dodging group [the European Network on Debt and Development] says.
    …
    The network says the issue of tax collection is rising fast up the political and social agenda, as countries across the world make deep cuts in public spending and increase taxes in ways that hurt the poor and the middle classes the most.
    “This new research demonstrates how important it is to tackle tax evasion and the tax havens that help wealthy individuals and organisations escape from contributing to the services that directly benefit them – from the health and education systems that support their workforces, to the roads that ship their goods to markets, to the courts of law that enforce their contracts or to the police who protect their property.”
     

    Isn’t it amazing how little time the MSM give to such stupendous levels of tax evasion compared with the relatively smaller amount of beneficiary fraud.

    PS: Apologies LynW, just saw you posted this already!
    • Draco T Bastard 18.1

      30 November 2011 at 5:49 pm

      $7.1b in lost tax – I think that’s more than the entire Unemployment Benefit and yet the RWNJs are concerned with a few million from benefit fraud and will do nothing about this loss.
      • mik e 18.1.1

        30 November 2011 at 6:19 pm

        $ 6 billion per year from losses due to child poverty
        $5to6 billion lost through alcohol abuse
19. Colonial Viper 19

    30 November 2011 at 7:17 pm

    Misogynist a Great NZ Businessman

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10769881
20. Half Crown Millionare 20

    30 November 2011 at 7:25 pm

    I have just seen the “candidates” for the new leader of the Labour party on Close up with Sainsbury. What the hell is the Labour party playing at? They are all bearing their souls with Cuniliff confessing to his short comings. Lovely. Labour should have told Sainbury and TV1 go and get f@#$ked, you, the country and National will find out about our new leader when we come charging out in our new tank and start breaking down the walls of Nationals very vulnerable fortress They should also tell Sainbury to do some in depth reporting on Key’s team and I suggest Jerry Brownarse Minister of Disasters would be a very good candidate to start with.
21. Salsy 21

    30 November 2011 at 8:07 pm

    I actually enjoyed it, I knew Cunliffe would do exceptionally well, Parker would be bland, but Shearer was the wild card. Rugged good looks, heroic back story, housewives will be abandoning Key in their droves..
    • Rain33 21.1

      30 November 2011 at 10:55 pm

      This is true. I had a friend visiting at the time, she is quite a “no politics” type of person, but thought David Shearer, along with his heroic back story as you put it, was, in her words, the sort of guy that could turn her onto politics.
22. randal 22

    30 November 2011 at 8:50 pm

    I voted not to convict dr.conrad murray in the msn poll.
23. ianmac 23

    30 November 2011 at 9:18 pm

    In the short time Nick Hagar’s post has been on Pundit, it has already been read by 2,054 people. I bet some are from Key’s office. Expect an anti Hagar hate flood.
    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      30 November 2011 at 9:41 pm

      It was a good post.

      Regardless of hateflood or not, Key got over the line just as his stock started sinking. And its still sinking.
24. ianmac 24

    30 November 2011 at 11:14 pm

    Consultation on proposed open cast coalmine was on the TV3 news suggesting that that Wilkinson waited until the first day after the election and justifying it with  depends on what a major mining event is. Nothing on TV1.
25. Jum 25

    30 November 2011 at 11:28 pm

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_the_internet/?vl
26. Rupert the Beer 26

    1 December 2011 at 12:02 pm

    This is a test.

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