Open mike 30/12/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 30th, 2012 - 136 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

136 comments on “Open mike 30/12/2012”

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  1. Morrissey 1
    30 December 2012 at 6:09 am

    Imagine if three Palestinian policemen executed an Israeli youth
    New Video of Fatal Shooting at West Bank Checkpoint Shows Officer’s Final Shot

    Jonathan Cook writes at his Facebook page:

    The unedited video of an Israeli soldier shooting dead 17-year-old Muhammad Awad Salaymeh at a Hebron checkpoint earlier this month has finally surfaced, thanks to what looks to have been a misjudgment by an Israeli journalist.

    It shows conclusively, as I and others argued even based on the edited footage, that the soldiers executed the unarmed youngster. He was shot at least three times, including when he was already bent over and incapacitated from the first shot.

    It’s good that the New York Times has published the video, though a shame that it has relegated it to a blog entry rather than the news pages. It would surely have been given far greater prominence had a Palestinian policeman been filmed executing an Israeli minor.

    Interestingly, it seems that some in the Israeli media have had the unedited footage for a while but decided to release only the misleading, edited footage. Channel 10 reporter Roy Sharon, who uploaded the full video to his private Youtube channel, says it had been provided by the IDF Spokesperson’s Unit.

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/new-video-of-fatal-shooting-at-west-bank-checkpoint-shows-officers-final-shot/

    • Andre 1.1
      30 December 2012 at 6:28 am

      2400 years they have been fighting in that area ,I think we have some issues here that you might address ?

      • Morrissey 1.1.1
        30 December 2012 at 6:52 am

        What an ignorant comment. Are you Garth George?

        • Andre 1.1.1.1
          30 December 2012 at 7:01 am

          Was he with the ottomans? or the crusaders?

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.1
            30 December 2012 at 7:18 am

            Nice comeback my friend. Garth George is actually almost old enough, and certainly stupid enough, to have gone on the original Crusade.

            • North 1.1.1.1.1.1
              30 December 2012 at 8:02 am

              Not a nice comeback at all.

              Just a facile expression of “I couldn’t give a stuff and you’re a wanker Morrissey because you do……now indulge me while I Mr Andre perform like a smartarse teenager”.

              I endorse your highighting of the utter evil of the oppressed turned oppresser situation in Palestine.

              Go Morrissey !

              • Andre …
                30 December 2012 at 8:11 am

                Spoken like a great peacemaker. I applaud your diplomacy ..

              • Morrissey …
                30 December 2012 at 8:11 am

                Thanks for your kind words, North. Yes, Andre’s response was a little on the facile side, I guess, but it was still wittier than what we’ve had to put up with over the last few days from poor old Te Reo Putake, Populuxe1 and McFliper.

                • Andre …
                  30 December 2012 at 8:55 am

                  Not to get into a bun fight ,But the only people who will make peace over there is the ordinary people .Not Iran Saudi or America or even little old Morrisey. We need to help not dictate .Facile .. some might say its not brain surgery.

                  • Morrissey …
                    30 December 2012 at 10:21 am

                    It’s easily solved: just enforce the law. Israel must withdraw all of its illegal settlers from the Occupied Territories and observe the 1967 borders.

                    Israel and the United States are the only two obstructions to this.

        • Andre 1.1.1.2
          30 December 2012 at 7:17 am

          With the climate projections. The near east and south med are likely to be without water and food by 2130 Best we can do is maybe address the loss of there homeland {who ever owned it.}

        • Brett Dale 1.1.1.3
          30 December 2012 at 11:20 am

          Morrissey:

          If you actually cared about the situation over there, you would fly over there and become hands on, instead of writing away on various pages on the internet.

          Gutless.

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.3.1
            30 December 2012 at 12:18 pm

            So I can’t comment on it?

            Thanks for that.

            • Brett Dale 1.1.1.3.1.1
              30 December 2012 at 4:34 pm

              Morrissey:

              Youn can comment on it all you like, but for the fact that you havent actually flew over there and helped out, shows me you probably dont really care about it.

              • Sosoo …
                31 December 2012 at 12:05 am

                He probably wouldn’t be allowed to. Israel has been cracking down on that sort of thing.

                We don’t have it bad here with media coverage. The US media is ridiculously pro Israel such that some of the things that get printed in the Israeli media would be career ending if an American journalist published them. At least we don’t have the Israel mafia here.

                • Morrissey …
                  31 December 2012 at 3:02 pm

                  We don’t have it bad here with media coverage.

                  Actually, my friend, we do have it that bad here. Our radio and television reporters simply parrot the same distortions and propaganda slogans that the foreign networks do. During the recent escalation of Israel’s daily attacks against the population of Gaza, some New Zealand newsreaders looked embarrassed, or even disturbed, when they were forced to recite nonsense like the standard “but Israel has denied this” after every hit on a civilian, but most of them didn’t even seem to understand what they were reading out. Greg Boyed was so robotic on Television One that he almost morphed into Peter Jennings.

                  The US media is ridiculously pro Israel such that some of the things that get printed in the Israeli media would be career ending if an American journalist published them.

                  Don’t forget there ARE some courageous and determined journalists in the US, like Glenn Greenwald, Seymour Hersh, and Matthew Lee….
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFGjQqmADYI

                  At least we don’t have the Israel mafia here.

                  Again, sadly, I must disagree with you. In April 2002, when the New Zealand Herald cartoonist Malcolm Evans dared to criticize the Holy State for its depradations in the Occupied West Bank (this was just after the Jenin massacre) the Israeli embassy, in concert with the likes of David Nathan, Dame Lesley Max and David Zwarz, mounted a sustained campaign of character assassination and vilification against Evans, combined with snarling threats against the Herald‘s editor, Gavin Ellis, a weak character who needed little more than a few swear words down the telephone to frighten him. He sacked Evans eventually, replacing him with the pisspoor Rod Emmerson.
                  http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/protest-against-former-herald-editor/5/141168

          • Galeandra 1.1.1.3.2
            30 December 2012 at 12:37 pm

            Says BrettDale :

            “If I actually cared about the ( _____ ) situation over here, I would become hands on, instead of writing away on various pages on the internet.

            Witless.”

            There, fixed it for you.

  2. Andre 2
    30 December 2012 at 6:12 am

    Who pays Matt McCarten living expenses now days ?

    • Ad 2.1
      30 December 2012 at 6:38 am

      Matt’s on the money this morning.

      • karol 2.1.1
        30 December 2012 at 6:50 am

        Cunlifffe no3? I would have thought that Shearer should have been up there? Having shown what a tough guy he is by smearing Cunliffe and manufacturing a coup that never was, shouldn’t Shearer be doing better than he is?

        McCarten

        • just saying 2.1.1.1
          30 December 2012 at 7:24 am

          I’d like to dispute the idea that Shearer won public support via his behaviour towards Cunliffe. In my experience, Shearer is a non-entity. This despite relentless cheerleading from the msm.

          His non-entity status was only confirmed by the whanau bbq season, in which I couldn’t get any kind of decent conversation going about him with anyone. No-one was interested, yet, as always politics was the number one topic. Labour in general, however, was much discussed, mainly in the context of particular policies and its non-appearance as the opposition.

          One family member has gone down his own political ‘road to damascus’ and has joined us on the left, with some passion, after many years with the right. Coincidentally he went right through school with Shearer and knew him well, he played sport with him and they were often in the same classes. He was very keen to talk politics, but when I asked him about Shearer as a he had almost nothing to say. When I asked directly about what he thought of him he said “not much”. When I asked what Shearer was like as a kid he said “he was okay”. With further questioning I found two things; he was an average student academically, and he was “pretty good” at rugby.

          Anyway, this may be what the Paganiists want, a leader who makes almost no impression. (I was surprised and expected the sort of jeering that Goff attracted).

          McCarten seems to have changed his tune a bit in this piece. He seems to no longer be claiming that Cunliffe staged a coup.

          • Andre 2.1.1.1.1
            30 December 2012 at 8:01 am

            IF.. I were into “conspiracy”Most” media liked Mr Shearer . Seems like ,with the state of the MSM ….. Mr Cunliffe will be a good choice for the leader?

          • Ad 2.1.1.1.2
            30 December 2012 at 8:08 am

            My own gathered family in Wanaka generally cancel each other out blue-red. But this time blue-green. The German tourists can’t understand the southern loathing for the Greens here. even American tourists are mystified on that.

            Cunliffe knows he was outplayed. Can’t understand the radio silence from him. After all if Chippie and Jones can … And Cunliffe should stop relying on supporters here on this site to do his heavy lifting for him.

            Tell you what, anyone 55 or over here is mystified that Labour hasn’t got a plan for the country. Not communicating it is as bad as not having one.

            Even the hard core Nats here see nothing is making any money (even real estate here) and surprisingly many compare Key’s Sky City deal far worse than Clark’s speeding to the Rugby. Just absolutely evident here the Nat’s desire to weaken the state has not dimmed the idea of the nation itself.

            • Andre 2.1.1.1.2.1
              30 December 2012 at 8:27 am

              I agree with the green thing Ad. I think its a cunning plan on NZLP to let the Nats hang themselves, I do not think they need a commentary.

            • Olwyn 2.1.1.1.2.2
              30 December 2012 at 9:49 am

              “Can’t understand the radio silence from him.”

              That, as I understand it, is because he was silenced by caucus. At the time of his demotion he was banned from speaking publicly.

              • Ad …
                30 December 2012 at 12:10 pm

                About the leadership. Long since time for Cunliffe to get back on the horse, or it’s on the truck to the glue factory.

            • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.2.3
              30 December 2012 at 9:53 am

              Key’s Sky City deal far worse than Clark’s speeding to the Rugby.

              You forget that KLARK ‘fraudulently’ put her signature on a painting in order to help raise funds for a worthwhile charity. Key can’t top that.

              (Remember the fuss? All seems so trifling and quaint now doesn’t it?)

              • Ad …
                30 December 2012 at 12:12 pm

                Even Whaleoil acknowledged a couple of days ago time was running out on Key to do anything memorable as PM.

        • Te Reo Putake 2.1.1.2
          30 December 2012 at 7:56 am

          Karol, it’s a list of those who have had a bad year. Like Shearer or not, he’s had a good year. He’s cemented his leadership, destroyed the only challenge to his authority in caucus and risen in the polls personally and taken the party up as well. He knows he will be PM in less than two years. That’s a good 12 months for a politician.

          • muzza 2.1.1.2.1
            30 December 2012 at 9:32 am

            Actually believe politics to be real eh, and because you support Labour blindly, and have invested yourself into the the theatre, can’t/won’t see the reality, whats up with that?

            The comment made above, is an example of the reason this country goes down the toilet a little more each day.

            Thanks for that TRP!

            Edit: JS -agree with what you say, except that Shearer is certainly not, a non-entity, he is in fact the polar opposite. As the NACT move further right, so the LP can be moved further center, all while some still believe they represent the left!

            Transparent!

        • Dr Terry 2.1.1.3
          30 December 2012 at 8:17 am

          Right on karol! Cunliffe’s “allies” hardly showed themselves in a good light. “Without any internal backlash” claims McCarten – who, of course, does not mention the enormous external backlash!

          • Akldnut 2.1.1.3.1
            30 December 2012 at 2:25 pm

            The internal backlash has been stifled and hasn’t had a chance to manifest itself, but will appear in Feb if there is a leadership challenge. To date shearer has bullied everyone into silence by demanding allegiance and blind following. There could be a swift surgical coup shortly.

      • Andre 2.1.2
        30 December 2012 at 6:56 am

        Not prioritizing is my issue .Plenty of preeminent people

      • KhandallaViper 2.1.3
        30 December 2012 at 12:17 pm

        Matt is wrong when he say there was a boost in the polls from shitting on Cunliffe. The polls went back to where they were in August and to where they have been ever since Phil & Annette took over. No change, despite an atrocious year from Key.
        Matt is swallowing a line fed to him and Young an Trevett.
        Labour is doing SHITE in the polls.
        Saying otherwise is like polishing a turd.

        • Akldnut 2.1.3.1
          30 December 2012 at 2:33 pm

          If you say something with enough repetition if will be assumed to be true therefore becomes fact to a host of people, ie the Cunliffe leadership challenge.
          IMHO it appears that’s what he trying to do.

        • Treetop 2.1.3.2
          30 December 2012 at 7:35 pm

          I have not looked up yet how much salary Cunliffe lost from being exiled to the back bench.

          • Anne 2.1.3.2.1
            30 December 2012 at 8:07 pm

            Cunliffe is not in politics for the money. As I understand it, he and his wife are wealthy in their own right. Makes for an interesting point of difference between him and some in the ABC club.

  3. Mickysavage 3
    30 December 2012 at 8:14 am

    There is a Key Research HOS poll in this morning’s herald (not online). National is on 46.9%, Labour 30.7, theGreens 13.3 and NZF 3%.

    Makes you wonder how much trashing of the country has to occur before people decide to switch.

    • Te Reo Putake 3.1
      30 December 2012 at 8:31 am

      Another good poll result for the left, Micky. If even the HOS poll shows National falling short of a majority at the end of 2012, then we can be pretty happy going into 2013. Time for Labour to start calling for a snap election, methinks.

      • Mickysavage 3.1.1
        30 December 2012 at 8:49 am

        Don’t know TRP. Labour’s gain is at NZF’s expense and last election it is clear that some of NZF’s support came from Labour voters trying to give the party an ally.

        And I don’t think the tactic of Shearer trashing the party’s best and brightest to “cement” his leadership is one with any long term benefits.

        • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1
          30 December 2012 at 9:03 am

          You’re right about the Labour support going Winston’s way, but at the next election, I think National supporters are more likely to make that tactical choice. Tories would would see Labour/NZF as more palatable than Lab/Greens, so the English effect may re-appear.

          As for trashing the best and brightest, Cunliffe is bright, but he’s been bested. It’s over for him and like the plucky contender picking himself up from the canvas, he never saw it coming.

          • Napkins 3.1.1.1.1
            30 December 2012 at 9:08 am

            “he never saw it coming.”
            I suppose that is why they pick the spot right between the shoulder blades.

            • The Al1en 3.1.1.1.1.1
              30 December 2012 at 3:04 pm

              I always aim for the face, because king hits are tools of cowards and the inferior. 😉

              And I never give anything, let alone trust or votes, to anyone who can’t attack from the front.

          • Mickysavage 3.1.1.1.2
            30 December 2012 at 9:10 am

            Um TRP if the party is going to be run in such a way it is not going to improve its position and the best and brightest activists will go off to the greens. This idea of maintaining power at all costs is very dangerous.

            • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1.2.1
              30 December 2012 at 9:21 am

              Tempted as I am to rerun Muldoon’s joke about emigration to Oz, I don’t see any signs that Labour activists are moving to the Greens, other than a few grumpy comments here. I’m not a fan of power at all costs either, but if power comes at the cost of sidelining the unproven David Cunliffe, I’m not too bothered. The task from here on in is to see a left coalition Government elected and its the policies I care about, not the pollies.

              • Napkins …
                30 December 2012 at 9:36 am

                “sidelining the unproven David Cunliffe”
                Wait, how many significant Ministerial portfolios has David Shearer held?

              • Mickysavage …
                30 December 2012 at 10:11 am

                I don’t see any signs that Labour activists are moving to the Greens, other than a few grumpy comments here

                I have seen a few and I suspect some are waiting to see what happens over the next few months.

              • JK …
                30 December 2012 at 4:43 pm

                I guess it depends who you’re talking to, TRP when it comes to what way Labour supporters will vote. If you’re talking mostly with people who supported Labour in the last election, then you’ll find that they’re not at all happy with the way the Labour caucus/Shearer is going at the moment and they’re looking at future voting alternatives. If you’re talking to Nat supporters, well – they”ll be happy with whatever the Nats do so they won’t leave their ship! No Nat supporter that I’ve ever come across has ever voted Labour – not even last election when Key said they’d sell SOEs did the Nats around where I live change their vote and then expressed shock, horror at the thought of SOEs being sold !

            • Saarbo 3.1.1.1.2.2
              30 December 2012 at 5:09 pm

              +1

          • Jenny 3.1.1.1.3
            30 December 2012 at 9:20 am

            Seasons Greetings TRP. I wouldn’t write off Cunliffe just yet.

            Cunliffe may be only keeping his silence as a tactical move until February. Win or lose, Cunliffe, unlike Shearer, has something to offer the Labour Party and the country.

            Hopefully he can continue to box clever.

            • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1.3.1
              30 December 2012 at 9:29 am

              Greetings to you too, Jenny, hope the new year is a good one for you and yours.

              You are dead right about Cunliffe having something to offer and I hope he gets given some real responsibility before the election and a cabinet post after it. I also have a sneaking suspicion Shearer will surprise us all in election year by having a total cleanout of the dead wood, including the leaders of the ABC club. It would be a tactical masterstroke to go into the next election making a clean break with the people who cost Labour the last election.

              • IrishBill …
                30 December 2012 at 10:09 am

                Indeed TRP. I’ve heard rumours that just such a move is under consideration. It would be good to see a rejuvenated front-bench. One of the things that has upset me most about the infighting is that is has divided some of the party’s best up and coming talent. Robertson, Hipkins, Adern, et al should be working with Cunliffe, Wall, Moroney, et al to forge a new, competent, and assertive parliamentary Labour Party but instead have been put on separate sides by the wealth of ill-feeling created by Mallard, Goff, King, et all. Then there’s the non-aligned (or less aligned?) new blood such as Andrew Little and David Clark who are doing good things but would be able to perform even more effectively if their talents were nested in a more functional caucus.

                I think that Shearer’s difficulty with members would disappear overnight if he dealt with the old toxic elements of the caucus.

                I also think that we’d see more political successes from Labour and with them, more courage to push harder and lefter. As far as I can tell most of the younger caucus members hold very similar solid left views regardless of the “camp” they are in – it’s the older lot that are still locked into the third-way belief that the electorate won’t tolerate social democratic initiatives (this may be the last remnant legacy of the fourth Labour govt) .

                  • Anne …
                    30 December 2012 at 11:02 am

                    TRP @ 9:29am and IB.

                    You give me hope. I think the clean-out needs to start with the re-shuffle coming up soon, and be well and truly complete before the end of this year so we go into election year with a tried and true fresh slate. Shearer hasn’t earned my support yet, but if he pulls this one off I’ll happily rescind my criticisms – fully and publicly on The Standard blog site!

                    • LynWiper …
                      30 December 2012 at 11:17 am

                      Yes, I agree Anne. Hope and a way forward for all!

                    • muzza …
                      30 December 2012 at 11:29 am

                      How many decades has Nz politics been sending this country down the toilet again!

                      Clean outs, reshuffles, camps, factions – Yeah thats about as helpful as optimism that the system can turn itself around.

                  • Mike Smith …
                    30 December 2012 at 12:08 pm

                    Shearer’s at 25% preferred PM in the poll, Cunliffe and Ardern 0.6%, just behind Goff on 0.8% and just ahead of Colin Craig on 0.5% and Hone Harawira on 0.4%. Shearer’s numbers are up 50% from the last Reid Research poll, so starting to look respectable. Key is still holding National up all by himself – the accompanying article says that if National’s partners hold Epsom and Ohariu they can still govern. That’s pretty tenuous this far out from 2014. And New Zealanders still oppose asset sales by two to one.

                    • IrishBill …
                      30 December 2012 at 12:38 pm

                      Indeed Mike, just think how much better Shearer would be doing with a refresh on top of his recent rise – he was heralded as the new broom, after all.

                • LynWiper …
                  30 December 2012 at 11:00 am

                  This is very encouraging talk.

                  • Anne …
                    30 December 2012 at 11:56 am

                    @ muzza

                    The ‘system’ inside and organisation including a political party can turn itself around. It probably can’t happen as fast as we would like but, believe it or not, I actually believe the Clark government was carefully putting the building blocks in place. Bear in mind, they had two conservative minor parties to contend with (and that was delivered them by the voters) so progress was slow. There’s no reason why a Labour/Green government-elect in 2014 can’t complete the job.

                    Actually a majority of delegates at the Labour conference started the ball rolling, and it was directly responsible for the ABC club hissy fit. The last throes of a dying third way belief ?

                    • muzza …
                      30 December 2012 at 12:33 pm

                      Hi Anne,

                      Could you elaborate on your comments about the Clark governments building blocks ?

                      Your last sentence, remains to be seen, although decades of negative trending would offer very long odds, and personally I do not believe that Cunliffe is anything different to Shearer, other than having some more experience inside the local machine. I interperet the *hissy fit* as more of the theatre I have referred to many times previously, not any final death rattle, so much as yet another act in the play!

                      Until the critical issue of NZ’s monetary control is addressed, and examination/auditing, and public showing of the debt situation, are demanded by those who are *playing politician*, then optimism has NO place, as it will simply allow the deterioration/theft to continue!

                • karol …
                  30 December 2012 at 5:20 pm

                  Well any shift back to the left would be welcome.

                  If there’s a clean out of the “old guard” I hope it includes Shane Jones, in the light of his attacks of Green policies.

                  It would be great to see some of the very able Labour MPs brought back in – but I hope it doesn’t mean a re-selection of John Tamihere (truly a relic from the past). I also hope more women are given prominent front bench positions, like Cunliffe, Wall, Moroney, Chauvel, etc. Under Shearer so far, thew LP has looked too macho male-dominated for me, and I would not like to see that kind of leadership in the next government.

                  Andrew Little has delivered some very good speeches in the House: e.g. on ACC.

                  I have so far had mixed responses to Ardern and Hipkins. Ardern has shown some fiery sparks of sincere advocacy for those in poverty. At other times she looks less sincere and more of a managerialist-style politician. But these two are young, so there’s time to develop. I’ll wait and see how they go.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                30 December 2012 at 10:52 am

                I also have a sneaking suspicion Shearer will surprise us all in election year by having a total cleanout of the dead wood, including the leaders of the ABC club. It would be a tactical masterstroke to go into the next election making a clean break with the people who cost Labour the last election.

                Firstly, hope is not suspicion, unless you have some sort of evidence leading you to believe it. What signs are there of this? Shearer has shown, if nothing else, that he is loyal to those who are loyal to him. If you are in his camp, you can get away with all sorts of damaging shit, leaking to the press, bagging potential coalition partners, general internet idiocy, none of it matters.

                Secondly, the reality of the permanent campaign means that if something like this is a good idea for an election year, you should be doing it now. By the time the year rolls around it is too late. If a clean break is needed, why for god’s sake would you not make it now?

                Oh yeah, personal loyalty to the people fucking up. So he’ll let them fuck up for another year, let those fuck ups continue to feed narratives, and then hope for a ‘clean break’.

                A clean break, is an admission that what you were doing, sucks. That’s not the sort of admission you make a year out from an election. You should be doing it in the first year after. that gives 2 years + to build that narrative of a ‘government in waiting’. But that narrative isn’t building because the break hasn’t been made yet.

                Why wait? Why is waiting a masterstroke?

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  30 December 2012 at 11:08 am

                  “Why wait? Why is waiting a masterstroke?”

                  In the short term, Shearer needs the current coterie. Past the February caucus, his standing as leader will be confirmed and the LP’s hopes at the election (and the MP’s jobs) then rely on him to a large extent. The ABC club consequently have less power and less power means less influence. They will become, ahem, lame ducks. Tactically, a clean out nearer the election means the ABCers will not have time to mount a coup in response and Shearer can go into the election as his own man, beholden to none. He will gain a personal poll boost as he did when he finished Cunliffe off, being seen as a strong leader making his mark. The timing is the masterstroke I was talking about, I think it’s better later than earlier.

                  IB: cheers, some typically spot on analysis in your comment. Maybe a post in it?

                  • Anne …
                    30 December 2012 at 11:13 am

                    Maybe a post in it?

                    Yes please. People have time for reflection at this time.

                    • IrishBill …
                      30 December 2012 at 12:48 pm

                      I’m wary of posting too much on Labour’s internal politics as every time I do it seems to start a shitstorm.

                    • Socialist Paddy …
                      30 December 2012 at 6:37 pm

                      And it should not.

                      The party ought to be having a discussion about its future.

                      Only cowards are afraid of open discussion.

                  • Pascal's bookie …
                    30 December 2012 at 12:07 pm

                    Ok, so it looks like we were thinking about different things.

                    Correct me if I’m wrong, please, but what you outline looks to me to be something like this:

                    Shearer needs the support of some useless idiots in caucus to avoid facing a broader party vote in Feb. He needs to avoid that vote because he can’t count on the support of the broader party.

                    So he will allow the idiots to remain being idiots until the threat from his lack of support in the broader party has been circumvented, and then he will stab the idiots in the back and replace them with some of thee people who would rather have let the broader party have a say.

                    Everyone starts singing kumbayah.

                    Sorry, but that to me looks like a really good play for a leader who is shoring up personal support in a weak position. It ignores that fact that leadership of the party isn’t the main goal of politics.

                    • IrishBill …
                      30 December 2012 at 12:44 pm

                      TRP, I don’t think he does need the ABC. In fact I think if he did sweep them out and bring the younger MPs of the two camps together there’s no way the half dozen MPs that make up the old guard would have the numbers to make the February vote and Cunliffe and his supporters would have no need to. What are the old guard going to do? Put Trev or Phil up as their new champion?

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      30 December 2012 at 1:00 pm

                      IB, while I agree his doesn’t need them in the long term , he does need them now. If the Feb vote is unanimous, and it should be, then Shearer has the whip hand and can afford to make his move at a time of his choosing. But he’d be foolish to rock the boat now.

                      If the strategy is to consolidate power and set the scene for the future, the immediate tactic is to formalise his authority in caucus. That means looking to repeat the unanimous vote post conference, not merely get the 60% plus one majority, so a move now would be way too early.

                    • Olwyn …
                      30 December 2012 at 1:18 pm

                      Following on what PB has said, if Shearer does intend to burn off the ABC club, what sort of a leadership does he actually have in mind for himself? So far he has given no indication, and the only thing I have seen him do with conviction is demote and silence the man that he saw as his main challenger. Was the Rufus Painter speech, and his limp defence of it, a sop to supporters with whom he intends to break ranks? Does he really think that left and right are not fruitful ways of conceptualising issues, or was that another sop?

                      There have been a few comments over the past day or two that raise questions that run far deeper than poll results.

                      RedLogix cited a conversation with Michael Cullen, who “…took the pains to explain to me in my naivety that governments can only operate within what is considered the acceptable ‘paradigm’ of the day. That some things were possible and others were a step too far at the time.”

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/amidst-thencircling-gloom/#comment-566727

                      Elsewhere, Sanctuary said, in a tone of exasperation, “I don’t see a fear of ideological purity, I see a fear of losing the benefits of being part of the elite.”

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/mud-slinging/#comment-567859

                      Bearing these comments in mind, this is the question to which I would like a straight answer from whoever leads the Labour Party. If you are taken to one side after the election, and told that the Nats have run the economy into the ground, and that you must introduce measures that squeeze the most vulnerable even further, what are you going to do?

                      The crucial question is whether our government is there to protect foreign interests, to the career advantage of local representatives, or there to defend the interests of the citizens, including the most vulnerable citizens.

        • redbaron77 3.1.1.2
          30 December 2012 at 9:08 am

          The problem goes deeper than leadership. Labour has during 2012 simply not presented itself as a credible “next government”/leading coalition partner to the electorate. While the talent and ideas are there there has also been persistent feeling that everything is still inchoate with Labour which a critical 10-15% of the electorate are probably picking up on. Its something that will need to be worked upon during 2013.

          • JK 3.1.1.2.1
            30 December 2012 at 4:58 pm

            To Olwyn : Bearing these comments in mind, this is the question to which I would like a straight answer from whoever leads the Labour Party. If you are taken to one side after the election, and told that the Nats have run the economy into the ground, and that you must introduce measures that squeeze the most vulnerable even further, what are you going to do?

            This is an important question you have asked. Perhaps the most important of all.

            This is just the scenario faced by Lange/Douglas et al in 1984 which they used to go down the neo-liberal economic path. I would hope that Labour in 2014 would take us down a different track but until we know what Shearer really thinks, we cannot possibly guess what way they’d go.

            • Olwyn 3.1.1.2.1.1
              31 December 2012 at 1:08 pm

              The fact that we do not know what Shearer thinks looks ominous to me. Along with his tendency to sidestep rather than address criticisms, his previous status as an international elite, and the panicked response of his crew when Cunliffe had the temerity to suggest that Labour would not make do with amputating your leg a little lower than National would. I should throw in as well his fan club of right wing shills. It seems to me that if he had more to offer than managing NZ on behalf of its “investors” he would by now have said so, loud and clear.

              • veutoviper …
                31 December 2012 at 1:18 pm

                +1

              • karol …
                31 December 2012 at 1:39 pm

                It may or may not be ominous, Olwyn. But that’s the problem. Maybe it has been a strategy to win over the MSM etc first. However, during the last year, there has been an erosion of trust. So, now, even if Shearer comes out and sincerely advocates for a strong left/labour movement position, how do we know he will stick to that once in government?

                I would prefer that Team Shearer does take leadership of a strong left agenda, but I will still be voting Mana or Green in order to have representation from parties that would be most likely to keep a Labour-led government “honest”.

                • Olwyn …
                  31 December 2012 at 2:19 pm

                  Caving to what some might see as the media’s demands does not amount to winning them over. Clark won the media over, though she lost them, after seven or eight years, to Key. But she did so with forthrightness, friendliness and clear articulation, not by purporting to follow a centre-right line.

                  The most crucial question to me lies with the difference between having the representation of New Zealanders as your focus, including and especially the most vulnerable, and selling your brand to New Zealanders in order to manage them on behalf of the international elite. One cannot expect miracles when corporatism has rendered us a more-or-less occupied country, but one can distinguish between a politician who employs their energy and their wiles on our behalf, and one who simply facilitates our exploitation while enhancing their own career prospects.

    • Blue Viper 3.2
      30 December 2012 at 11:32 am

      Makes you wonder how much trashing of the country has to occur before people decide to switch.

      There are no shortcuts, Micky. People will not vote Labour just because they aren’t National. The old saying that goes ‘Oppositions don’t win elections, Governments lose them’ does have an unspoken proviso that the Opposition needs to meet a minimum standard of competence.

      At the moment, Labour is a complete fail. People don’t have any idea what they stand for, who their leader is, or any confidence in their day-to-day political management and performance. They’ve been overshadowed by the Greens and Winston all year.

      To put it bluntly, no matter how much Key screws up, people won’t go for Labour in its current form. That leaves Key wide open to do whatever he likes.

      The Greens are proving very competent, but they are still a minor party in most people’s eyes. To have a change of government, people need to regain confidence in the main Opposition party – Labour. And it doesn’t look like happening anytime soon.

    • OneTrackViper 3.3
      30 December 2012 at 2:00 pm

      Maybe the country isn’t being trashed the way you say it is. The Xmas receipts were well up from last year, indicating people had money in their pockets and weren’t worried about spending it ie confidence in their jobs and the way the country is going maybe.

      Or were those just the rich pricks? If so there seem to be a lot of rich pricks around.

      So, what changes will Labour/Watermelon make, and how will it improve things? Or will they start us backwards down the track to Greece and Zimbabwe?

      • Napkins 3.3.1
        30 December 2012 at 2:09 pm

        Christmas retail up just 3.3%, after retail in general has been down all year. Unless the trend continues in January and February, I wouldn’t read too much into it.

  4. Dr Terry 4
    30 December 2012 at 8:26 am

    Micky – thanks. This hardly endorses McCarten’s insistence of increased support for Labour since the crucifixion (“destroyed” is the word chosen by TRP) of Cunliffe by Shearer! Never mind, tons of time for a Cunliffe “resurrection” yet!!

    • Jenny 4.1
      30 December 2012 at 9:38 am

      Hi Doc. I think you are right, a Cunliffe “resurrection” should not be ruled out, in fact I think it is almost compulsory. In politics “resurrection” is the rule, rather than the exception.

      Politics is almost exciting as war. In war you can only be killed once. But in politics many times.

      Winston Churchill After Churchill’s expulsion from the Conservative Party in 1906

  5. Napkins 5
    30 December 2012 at 10:22 am

    Big banks, FBI, Homeland Security and local law enforcement actively worked together to collect intelligence on Occupy activists, and violently crush Occupy protests right across the USA. Draw your own conclusions about what the melding of corporate and state power means to all of us.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

    • muzza 5.1
      30 December 2012 at 11:22 am

      What do people think the *intelligence* networks do all day long, jesus it obviously took control of the *arab spring* and engineered it towards the desired outcomes across the board, why on earth would occupy have been any different, *intelligence* is not a new industry!

      Edit: Brett Dale, what are you on about?

    • blue leopard 5.2
      30 December 2012 at 6:09 pm

      Cheers for the link Napkins; very informative

    • karol 5.3
      30 December 2012 at 6:40 pm

      Yes, thanks napkins. I’ve seen that issue mentioned before, but it reminded me & I think I can use the link in a future post.

  6. Brett Dale 6
    30 December 2012 at 11:19 am

    Disgusting what Russia did, using Orphans to score political points off the usa, funny how the green party and te mana and the labour party are silent over Russia’s repugnant actions, despite telling people how they’re the party that cares about childern.

    • Napkins 6.1
      30 December 2012 at 11:42 am

      This is what happens when diplomatic relations between major powers deteriorate badly. Ordinary people get caught in the middle. Russia was always going to retaliate against the US Magnitsky Act which targets senior Russian officials.

    • bad12 6.2
      30 December 2012 at 1:03 pm

      You cannot be too disgusted, you are using those very same children whose treatment has very little to do with New Zealand politics, (unless you think we are simply a US proxy state), to score stupid political points against New Zealand political party’s…

    • karol 6.3
      30 December 2012 at 6:36 pm

      International adoptions are a fraught area: there’s arguments for and against it. Some argue against it as encouraging the international marketing of children. Others think it is traumatic or the child to take them away from their home culture.

      Opponents of international adoption, including UNICEF, suggest that the money and effort spent on giving homes to a few children would be better spent on improving conditions in the children’s native countries. The idea is that reducing poverty and disease would reduce the number of orphans. In most cases the children available for international adoption are in institutions or temporary foster care, without the possibility of domestic adoption in the near future. Even people who oppose international adoption in principle tend to agree that it’s preferable to a life spent in an orphanage.

  7. Rosie 7
    30 December 2012 at 12:13 pm

    Crikey! It’s the weekend?! Well it’s been a blur of heat and humidity all week. Nice breeze a blowing now though…. thank god.

    Thank god (or ratepayers rather) for libraries too. Stocked up on reading matter on xmas eve including Mojo music mags. Quote of the week has to be from Don Letts speaking on John Lydon (Mojo, August 2012)

    “People are scared when somebody else speaks up when they haven’t got the guts to. People want to squash it”

    This made me think of the silence/cognitive dissonance/apathy we have in NZ during one of the most painful political times we have experienced in a awhile. Bring the noise I say!! (Apologies for being a bit political on the social pages)And on that note: Arohanui to the authors and moderators here at The Standard. You are a wise and strong collective,whose work is much appreciated by myself and many other commentors and readers for sure. I wish you well for your ongoing and increasing success in 2013.

    To commentors and readers: The very best of health and happiness to you in 2013, especially to those of you whose path has not been easy – may you find the change you are looking for. Kia Kaha

    PS: Moved this comment from weekend social as its semi social, semi political. Big ups all:-)

  8. Rogue Trooper 8
    30 December 2012 at 1:14 pm

    beginning with an Adneckdote;
    -over a post S.A 😉 service cuppa tea the Lord led an itinerant “farmer” to engage with me. After the usual pissing comparison of our denominational journeys (his first step int the S.A, via marriage),we came around to politics; he asked if I belonged, I said I’m joining Labour, red (and black) through and through, whatta bout you, Blue?

    His words-(now this is really funny)” No! John Key has done as much damage to this country as Helen Clark did” (he exclaimed from the heart of his airtex shirt and Tussock Creek moleskins).

    then, then,”You should join the Conservative Party (assumed i’m conservative obviously; i don’t even look freakin’ conservative, i look a cross between John and Rasputin). You’re joining the Labour Party??? There are more gays in in there than anything”, and then he immediately got up before i could reply (well, spose i already had with my pierced eyes 🙂 ), saying I gotta go (probably to wash his mouth out), grabbed his “bible” and strode off; must have been the bright light hurting his briefly opened mind. Very sad, yet, something to bear in mind (bear, now that’s funny), cos it’s all about
    impressions, and although i find David Clark interesting to listen to, and think Charles is well spoken,
    Robertson worries me personally.

  10. vivaciousviper 10
    30 December 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Twitter war has broken out between McCarten, Henare,Mallard according to the
    Herald, over comments Matt has made in his opinion piece.

    • Morrissey 10.1
      30 December 2012 at 5:51 pm

      Your post got me intrigued, and I’ve just had a look at Henare’s Twitter account. It’s full of fascinating entries, like this….

      “Now at St Lukes L’Occitane. Smellies for my wife’s BDay. Yum”

      Even for a Twitter entry, making the effort to write that strikes me as a particularly fatuous waste of time.

      Henare’s moronic tweets also display his lingering bitterness towards Trevor Mallard, after Mallard clouted him in Parliament a couple of years ago.

      https://twitter.com/tauhenare

  11. Morrissey 11
    30 December 2012 at 1:50 pm

    TOO MUCH MARIHUANA, PERHAPS?
    Hollywood entertainment lawyer Mark Litwak interviewed by Simon Morris
    Radio New Zealand National, Sunday 30 December 2012, 1:25 p.m.

    A neat example of two minds: one just a bit too laid back and one razor-sharp…

    MORRIS: You were talking about the ninety-day, errrrr—

    LITWAK: Gap.

    MORRIS: Gap, yes.

    If Morris keeps on with the woolly-minded “errrrr” and “ummmm” stuff, Leighton (Ummmmm, Errrrrr, Ahmmmm) Smith and Larry (Lackwit) Williams had better look to their laurels; someone else could be contending for the title of dopiest person on the air….

    • fenderviper 11.1
      30 December 2012 at 5:24 pm

      Simon will be fine, he could consume 24/7 and still be 500 years ahead of those two fools from shittalkZB.

      • Morrissey 11.1.1
        30 December 2012 at 5:42 pm

        That’s true, but for a moment there this afternoon he sounded unnervingly like a NewstalkZB…. ummmm, errrrrr, ahhhhhhhhhhmmm….. host.

  12. Populuxe1 12
    30 December 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Perhaps Cunliffe should start his own party with whatever true believers remain in Labour. I’d probably vote for it.

    • Ad 12.1
      30 December 2012 at 3:21 pm

      Cunliffe is not Anderton.

      We have got what we have got. Leadership and vote.

      My bet is Labour will only take share off NZFirst.
      Election 2014 % of vote result for me:
      Labour 33
      Greens. 14
      National 41

      With remaining as seats: Mana 1 seat, Maori 2 seats, and United stays 1
      Labour gets back a bit more Maori. NZF vote redistributed.

      Better results than that require too many planets to align.

    • tazireviper 12.2
      30 December 2012 at 8:40 pm

      Maybe a goer +1

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    30 December 2012 at 2:25 pm

    anyway, the wave and a smile is my best friend, Amor fati
    climbing up on Soulsbury Hill, Red Rain’s fallin’ down In Your Eyes
    wherd ya’ leave the Delorean Marty, back in High School McFli?
    government blacktop “binge”; there’ll be a toll to pay
    no Transmission Lawrence…radio my Transmission
    It won’t happen overnight Rachal, but it will happen
    that’s the panting explosion. Esau I have loved
    Yet, Esau must go-Rachel grew jealous
    shairing in all the duplicity and falsehood of her gasoline alley family.
    Leah Laban Labia. Lamentations:the fate of the children
    Suicide Blond in excess. Marvin Marvin Marvin
    there are too many children crying
    (heard it thru’ the grapevine) “Mine Mine Mine”
    They’re all livin for the City
    there’s too many children dying. Horn being train sets
    In Vain. Manchester Brittle Indian cotton land. Return
    of “the guardians”; tooth fairy and Bugs Bunny,
    “eh wots up Doctorow. It’s one virus and calcium
    deficit after another. Have you ever pulled a chain
    Gang, been around or on The Block?
    singin’ all day, singin’ ’bout nothin’ oh meow meow Mao
    Oh Mao meow meow. The kingdom of God is near.

    Apathy Agnosticism Atheism: Anarchy
    Acquisition Acquiescence Appeasement: Anarchy
    Behaviour Bleeding Belonging: Blessing
    Saviour Sister Brother Blessing
    Blessings from the Rock of our Salvation
    Admit Believe Call. Concrete Blonde Always
    God is a Bullet, have Mercy on us everyone.

    To cut a long story short I lost my mind
    (if you leave me, can I come too, and if)
    You don’t, then I won’t too. Little Boys, big toys
    each has a shiny “horse”, gayly they play
    each summers’ day, “warriors” all of them of course
    Father Father Father, there’s too many children dying
    Father Father Father, men leave women cryin’
    Eats, Roots and Leaves. Mama she has taught me well
    Told me when I’s young, Son your life’s an open book
    don’t close it ‘fore it’s done.

    By the rivers of Babylon, there we set down
    there air we wept
    when we remembered Zion
    Nothing Else Matters
    never care for what they say
    never care for what they do
    Dare to be a Daniel, Red Blooded through and through.
    Vegetarian soon she’ll be comin round the mountain
    comin’ round the mountain, she’ll be comin round
    the mounting when she comes.
    (Driver 8 take a break, we’ve been on this “trip” too long)

    The Bible is often overlooked tunneling under war monuments
    We’re in his hands, Idle Hands and all that Sin City jazz
    We can change the world, with our own Two Hands
    A-men O-men, when I see your face again
    Ben-Harper. The days I cannot see have all been planned.
    enter No Plea. Barter. Paraclete will see you through.
    scourged him to the bone The Romans did
    Thank God for Joseph of Arimathea .

    meanwhile, the church packed it’s bags
    sat at the Bus Stop waiting for The Rapture
    who shares their umbrella. A Long Cool
    Women in a black dress, working for the FBI
    at the time of Elisha, the more “wailers” you paid
    the more sadness you weighed:Elisha had P.R
    The Inheritance we have is the presence of God.

    Billy Graham left the bus tours and knelt
    After Wesley; wore that carpet out Side By Side
    Onward Caritas Soldiers support and comfort
    The Poor will always be with us; there is an increase.
    Pirates.Radio Hauraki run up The Jolly Roger
    -cheeky wink. Think Think Think.

    the black the white, the dark the fair
    your colour does not matter here
    there’s every nation, every race
    at The Standard we can all embrace
    God Loves You All

    -The Great Commissioner (All Around My Hat)

    • Puddleglum 13.1
      30 December 2012 at 11:06 pm

      I just have to say, Rogue Trooper, that your contributions are a breath of fresh air.

      They’re like a kind of free-flow rationality that gather up the edits off the cutting floor and stitch them back together.

      Whatever your muse is, let it keep speaking and, then, sit back and relax. You will have done more than your bit to make a human(e) place.

      I like to think I have a muse too, sometimes. More like Bach’s – all disciplined and structured. But yours is full to overflowing in every line.

      All the best 🙂

  14. RedLogix 14
    30 December 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Too many parties on the left already pop.

    Personally what baffles me is the sheer authoritarian nastiness the ABC clique has employed. If they had an honest argument they would have used it and while a few egos’ might of gotten bruised; we would not be where we are now with a weakened Labour party leader trying desperately to hose down this kind of damaging dissension … and long-time loyal activists openly contemplating leaving Labour behind.

    Not dealing honestly with issues always makes them worse.

    • muzza 14.1
      30 December 2012 at 4:43 pm

      Infiltration of the LP began decades ago, why should it be a surprise that there are still such types who make up the *core* of the party, are the same who are forging such damage and giving the NACT such a free ride, because that’s whats really going on!

      Same techniques rinse and repeat, and people still fall for it!

    • karol 14.2
      30 December 2012 at 5:24 pm

      RL: Personally what baffles me is the sheer authoritarian nastiness the ABC clique has employed.

      Yes, that, the bullying, the suppression of dissent from members, and the manipulation of the MSM to create a false narrative of Cunliffe attempting a coup, resulting in the smearing of Cunliffe – that all leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, and has resulted in the development of a feeling of distrust in Team Shearer. I don’t know how all that damage can be easily undone.

      • Anne 14.2.1
        30 December 2012 at 9:37 pm

        I doubt the MSM were manipulated. More likely they were accomplices. That was certainly the impression I got observing their activity (or some of it) at the Labour Conference.

        • Rogue Trooper 14.2.1.1
          30 December 2012 at 9:43 pm

          ya sure got your gun Annee 🙂

          now, when shall we see mowing over lightbulbs on the A40 sit-com stop rerunnin? hmmm?
          hmmm? (keep listening to RNZ, might learn an unPopular thing or two)

        • karol 14.2.1.2
          31 December 2012 at 8:12 am

          Well, from just observing the reports in the MSM, it looked like some mutual attempts at manipulation – by the Labour Caucus anonymous leakers and journalists manufacturing their own version of the story.

  16. Rogue Trooper 16
    30 December 2012 at 5:53 pm

    SST-
    some gristle in the OECD article;
    -% income spent on housing-29-36th of 36 (rankings)
    -child poverty-20/36
    -work life (un)-balance-30/36

    “Oh the humidity…” get a haircut, and get a productive job.

    Laws-bit of a pavlova himself by the sounds and look of it (nothin’ personal, just gristle between my
    teeth) No need to mince words, spit ’em out; elicit not my fluffy, feathered friend; we already know what the conclusions are, including needing a woman to hold your hand while you manipulate that
    peace (holmes already had his trial) sons, your lives are over, ours have just begun.

    Ozzy Osbourne airoport, where the big jet engines roar…(Birmingham)

    British Steel
    http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_77826/judas-priest/songs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWhInhE6emE

    just keep on breakin’ the law

    -priest 😉

  17. Rogue Trooper 17
    30 December 2012 at 8:14 pm

    Fireworks and slushies
    http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/

    regarding these OECD “I’ve had a wonderful day” Rankin??? David David David
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism
    Smile. You’re on Candide Camera 🙂

    NZH-“Ni hao.Huan ying, huan ying!) Welcome the Chinese (now where have i read that before?)

    -patupaiarehe (great minds and all that blubber) 😉

  18. RedLogix 18
    30 December 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Stumbled across this gem at TruthOut (although the original source is Australian Options)

    In September 2012 Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel attempted to break the Chicago Teachers Union (CTU) with a bid to privatize Chicago’s public schools. The mayor’s proposal was based on a plan to subject teachers (and schools) to performance measurement based on students’ standardized test scores.

    Teachers whose students scored poorly would be fired. Schools whose students scored poorly would be closed. The students would then be farmed out to so-called “charter schools” – for the most part, for-profit institutions run by corporations like Edison Schools, Rocketship, Victory Schools, and Educational Services of America.

    The rest of the article takes a somewhat dark line, but this opening strikes a very familiar chord.

  19. Rogue Trooper 19
    30 December 2012 at 9:31 pm

    still lovin’ ya work Floccular, gobsmacked as usual
    a Molly of an anecdote, Take Note!
    remain positive Mike;glass half full
    great Macro analysis as per
    potential TRP pragmatic potential
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_witches
    (problematic for Wesley)
    don’t be so glum-jump in puddles (lux ury may be found for tramps under bridges)
    kc and the Sonshine band (thats the way aha aha I like it)
    numerator Jenny, not numero uno (hubris cometh before?)
    forget Georgy peter puddin’ pie; com municate with George
    one outta the box and into the Pink (all pink inside)
    a dab one-two analysis left hook; southpaw?
    reasoned as usual Red. Peoples Power (Patti Smith)
    keep on Going North.Not too much turf on the fire aye Bill (smoke gets in their I’s)
    hope it’s all Rosie for you too-Guten Morgen / Tag

    Gute Nacht

    -Joseph

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yXRGdZdonM
    (some Trenchcoat Rock)

    • Puddleglum 19.1
      31 December 2012 at 12:01 am

      “don’t be so glum-jump in puddles (lux ury may be found for tramps under bridges)”

      Yep. I’m probably the least glum person I know, being honest.

      The Silver Chair – the serpent scene. A burnt foot doesn’t matter when you know what matters.

      “One word, Ma’am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you’ve been saying is quite right, I shouldn’t wonder. I’m a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won’t deny any of what you said. But there’s one more thing to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say.”

      Wittgesntein, language games (i.e., ‘babies playing a game’):

      “Something new (spontaneous, specific) is always a language-game” (Philosophical Investigations, p. 224)”

      Vaclav Havel:

      “Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out.”

      William James and “The Will to Believe”.

      Puddleglum’s Wager.

      Forget about ‘religion’, ‘God’ or whatever. That’s an unfortunate distraction. Think about what is valuable to you (and everyone).

      Nothing to be glum about, so far as I can see.

      Searching for a better world makes perfect sense. Even a (political) scientist would have to agree.

      (Hint: It’s the tension between the ‘actual’ and the ‘possible’).

  20. kenny 20
    30 December 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Three questions:

    1. What happens if Shearer does not involve the wider party membership in February’s leadership vote?

    2. What happens if he does and Cunliffe wins?

    3, What does Cunliffe then do about the ABCer’s?

    Either way the Labour Party is pretty much stuffed for the next few years until it gets it’s shit together.

    • Ad 20.1
      30 December 2012 at 11:03 pm

      1. Nothing of note, other than permanent sidelining of this site by leadership.

      2. He won’t win. Cunliffe will only get a Shadow slot if King goes, and beats Wilde.

      3. He will never win. Never has won them over. permanent 40% spill cycle is result if he ever does.

  21. kenny 21
    30 December 2012 at 9:58 pm

    I keep reading on this site about the need for policy and that it is more important than personalities. I tend to agree with this but think it is very important to have good leadership AS WELL.

    If you want to see what one party’s policy is, relating to the current world economic crisis, then go to this site http://www.democrats.org.nz/; here you will find an abundance of policy for real change which both Labour and the Greens would do well to study. I think it is fairly obvious that REAL CHANGE is not going to come from Labour OR the Greens

    I find it amazing that SOME of these policies (and Social Credit as a party) have not had any mention during these trying times.

    • Napkins 21.1
      30 December 2012 at 10:07 pm

      Leadership from the NZ Democrats should put up regular posts on The Standard, on topical issues. I’m sure that would be most welcome.

  22. xtasy 22
    31 December 2012 at 12:44 am

    DEBATE is lively in this forum, just before the end of the year. But again, it is the selected few raising voices and ideas, those who take interest, follow, read, learn and are informed.

    Regrettably you are all too few. I dread again, for days we get the usual end of year shit news from MSM (mainstream media), about traffic, sales turnovers, the feeding at the missions, the accidents in bush, on beaches and on the roads. The odd crime story fills in, and there is heaps of weather prediction, always a bit off what really will come.

    FFS, is this what NZ is about, I ask yet again?

    I know many here know a better part of NZ, but I am talking about the supposed “masses” of brain-washed consumers, leisure holidayers, and those just not interested in others, rather themselves to have a bloody good time. Christmas was again a shocker, with NO CULTURE of any sorts, no enlightenment, nothing worth reading, watching or listening to.

    The dumbing down agenda is working, so I am afraid.

    We have a Labour leader go surfing and wanting to have lots of BBQ fun. He is mellow, shallow and a no-hoper. An opposition that only really comes in force from the minor players (so far) in “opposition”. We have a country on the brink, but all have gone on holdays now, forget the future and the needs of the people, I suppose. If you cannot afford it, splash out on the credit card, surely in 1 to 2 months the bills will come, and the sobering up phase. But hey, then it will be autumn and winter, fit for somber moods.

    I am for a first time in a long time in contact with people in Europe, I am feeling a need to rethink my future. Do I want to spend the rest of my life in a vast, expansive farm yard, short of ideas, where revolutionary thinking and great ideas will NEVER catch on with most, or do I perhaps seek a chance to get back to what I call “civilisation” and informed people?

    Honestly, I am at a stage in my life, where I am ready to call it quits for NZ, I see little hope at all for this small post colonial place. It is sooooooo depressing and hopeless. Not even presenting media, and others with scandalous information and facts moves anything.

    I am tired of living in a dictatorship or some kind of dumbo land.

    Happy New Year, whatever you may be able to make of it.

    • Saarbo 22.1
      31 December 2012 at 7:51 am

      Yes I understand what you are saying Xtasy, there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. However it could be worse, we could be in AUSTRALIA. Just keep positing on the Standard, I enjoy your posts.

    • Treetop 22.2
      31 December 2012 at 4:33 pm

      I felt really inspired for the first time this year on listening to Owen Glenn (RNZ 7.30 ish) talking about his commission of inquiry into child abuse and violence. He has a web site which I am yet to visit and he hopes to have a blue print ready in the first quarter of 2014. A panel of about 35 selected people are involved.

  23. kiwicommie 23
    31 December 2012 at 4:20 am

    I already quit NZ Xtasy and am living in the States, National doesn’t care about human welfare or the future of New Zealand. It is the Chicago Boys project all again, John Key is just a Roger Douglas with a different name. The right wing in NZ are under the personality cult of John Key, as are the MSM. The MSM always attack the Greens and Labour, the only two parties that have people that give a damn if New Zealand stays afloat or not. The longer National stays in power, the more damaged New Zealand becomes. If you have to leave as I have, then good luck. 🙂

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