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Open mike 31/03/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 31st, 2020 - 238 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

238 comments on “Open mike 31/03/2020 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    31 March 2020 at 7:18 am

    Heh.

    It turns out the dude pushing hydroxychloroquine has remarkable similarities to the dude that put his name to " His physical strength and stamina are extraordinary … If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency." S'pose we should have been able to guess that.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine-plaquenil.html

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2
    31 March 2020 at 7:21 am

    I didn’t think I’d ever say this, but for once I agree with something Trump said:

    He called Covid-19 the ‘Chinese’ virus.

    It more than likely did originate in a wet market in Wuhan.

    But what happened next is why the CCP should be held liable for the pandemic.

    They suppressed news of the scale of the outbreak for 3 weeks, when, one medical commentator estimates, 95% of the deaths could have been avoided.

    Then, when forced to admit to an epidemic, the CCP, for internal political reasons, downplayed the scale of the outbreak. Ultimately, this cost the world!

    3500 deaths and 80,000 infected is bad enough, but if the true figures (which we shall never know) were published to the world – i.e. more than 40,000 deaths and perhaps as many as 48,000 and in excess of 800,000 cases, do you think WHO would have been able to procrastinate to protect China, do you imagine world governments wouldn’t have hit the alert/panic button all that quicker?

    CCP disdain for the lives of their own citizens and ultimately for the lives of all people on the globe is a crime against humanity we should never forget.

    Add to that their despicable treatment of the Uyghurs (there are reports internees are being used as slave labour) and Tibetans and their repression of all dissent even among the Han, well, we should seriously rethink our relationship with them post covid-19.

    And listen, really listen to Professor Brady.

    • Sanctuary 2.1
      31 March 2020 at 7:31 am

      There are a few economic lesson we could – and probably should – take from this pandemic. Less reliance on China and the fragility of relying on tourism (most international students are really just long term educational tourists, so them as well as the garden variety recreational tourists) and the idiocy of building regional economies on things like the cruise ship industry are just a few.

      The need to end open slather laissez-faire globalism and rebuild some local resilience in strategic goods like pharmaceuticals, medical supplies and the need to rebuild a modest level of local industrial capacity should also be high on the agenda.

      • ScottGN 2.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 7:51 am

        A yet the herald today has a piece where China is lauded as having beaten the virus and will be a wonderful source of tourists and students as we get back on our feet…we’ll never learn.

        • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 8:09 am

          Speaking of fee paying Chinese students, another institution that deserves close scrutiny after this is over is Auckland University.

          This piece – https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120666809/do-the-consequences-of-this-lockdown-really-match-the-threat

          Is written, not coincidentially IMHO, by a senior lecturer at that university. Auckland University nowadays operates with a cult like addiction to a culture of secretive managerialism and an extremely narrow, slavish interpretation of neoliberal self interest.

          It's entire approach to the pandemic has been to simply consider the health of others and the governments actions as unwise interventions in it's right to operate an unfettered degrees for dollars program for (mainly) Chinese students – and the university itself appears ethically paralysed by it's greed (it's craven acquiescence to China means it is still listed as a partner on the website of the Confucius Institute – https://ci.ac.nz/ – an organisation now widely unmasked as simply a front for the CCP and Chinese government to compromise local institutions).

          The time has surely come for the minister of education to take a keener interest in reforming the governance of Auckland University to root out the neoliberal fanatics and rebuild it as a centre of learning, before it goes the way of Unitec – an institution near fatally laid low by incompetent neoliberal senior managers.

          • AB 2.1.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 10:22 am

            i.e. My business is more important than your life – sorry about that.

            Expect more of this stuff from the death cult managerialists as we get further into lockdown.

          • OnceWasTim 2.1.1.1.2
            31 March 2020 at 10:28 am

            Not just Auckland Uni @ Sanc (or Unitec). Those managerialist neo-libs have been slithering and slipping and sliding their way in elsewhere (incrementally).

            The commodity of education! a great bizzniss opportunity going forward – especially the 'export' education sector – no matter how many of the world's poor we manage to lie to, con, fleece, and then chuck out for the next round. And even if it means telling some of them how to suck eggs at NZ$30k a pop

            Growth growth growth!

          • Incognito 2.1.1.1.3
            31 March 2020 at 3:03 pm

            I did read that article this morning and thought it was a well-considered opinion from somebody who knows what he’s talking about. I clicked on your link because you appeared to be talking of a different article on Stuff. You weren’t.

            The opinion piece was written by an epidemiologist, not somebody from the Business School, a manager, or someone who works at the Confucius Institute.

            I cannot detect anything in the piece that supports your nonsensical comment and you may have to point out the alleged pro-China stance or the neo-liberal influences.

            As for accusing Auckland University of putting dollars before the welfare of staff and students, you may want to read this: https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/notices/2020/coronavirus-outbreak.html

            Your whole comment was just another rant.

            • OnceWasTim 2.1.1.1.3.1
              31 March 2020 at 7:15 pm

              maybe so @Incogs (as far as it being a well-considered piece)

              "Despite my scepticism, Covid-19 does pose a real risk to our health. Sensible measures include better hand hygiene, ensuring good cough etiquette, and restricting large gatherings. Limiting exposure for the elderly, and people with chronic conditions, makes sense."

              We shouldn't however forget what the hell it is and was that got us to be here in the first place.

              And none of it invalidates @Sanctury's perception of what has gone wrong in the tertiary education sector (generally) with ideologically-driven managerialists at the helm.

              Quantity and throughput over quality, balance sheets and profitability.

              I got the hell out of it when it became evident that bums on seats was the agenda; plagiarism took a back seat; some in academia in the teaching profession had to seriously consider it as a long term career; the TEU began logging covert pressures to pass people that had no business being in the place; and as I looked out over Wellington (a panorama south to north from an eastern perspective) seeing how a good many of the buildings had become student telephone box sleep outs.

              • Incognito …
                1 April 2020 at 11:28 pm

                I hear you. Not all is well in academia and NZ is no exception. Similarly, neo-liberalism and managerialism are two –isms that are far from perfect.

                That said, Sanctuary did not address the linked piece, which they disliked, but attacked the writer’s employer (Uni), managers (irrelevant), neo-liberalism (irrelevant), and the Confucius Inst (completely irrelevant too). It may have had some bearing on the discussion thread but it had nothing to with the linked article.

      • aj 2.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 9:31 am

        'Less reliance on China' is an easy four words but isn't the simple solution for a mostly agricultural trading nation. I find it hard to disagree with Keith Woodford, my bold.

        The starting point is that in times like these, export markets choose New Zealand, rather than New Zealand choosing its export markets. In this environment, all we can do is hang out our shingle, and help potential buyers to manage the logistics.

        Within New Zealand, there has been an increasing belief in recent years that we have become too dependent on China. To those who have said ‘we must diversify so as to be less reliant on China’, my response has always been: ‘Specifically, where do you think we should focus?’ I have yet to get a specific answer that aligns with macro prospects. At the micro level there are always options, but at the macro level it is not so easy.

        The reason that we have been exporting so much to China is that Chinese businesses are the ones who have come knocking at our door wanting our product, particularly as it relates to dairy, beef and sheep meats, but also more broadly for all of our land-based products.

      • tc 2.1.3
        31 March 2020 at 3:33 pm

        +100 and revise the rentier model we've created around essential utilities so they deliver services rather than large profits.

        No water in northland, sewage in harbours, lines network investment deferred to fund the yearly retail power dividend along with it's ‘aren’t we doing well’ billboard campaign.

        We have the priorities arse about.

    • Molly 2.2
      31 March 2020 at 8:27 am

      While the CCP is responsible for many breaches of human rights, and the transparency of that government is non-existent, we shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that making them responsible for the emergence of Covid-19 is justified, because it seems the easy way to make them pay.

      Keep disagreeing with Donald Trump. If you find yourself agreeing with him, then look deeper, he tends to splash around in the shallow end.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:45 am

        That is what surprised me most – that Trump actually said something even remotely approaching the truth.

        The fact remains, had the CCP published the real mortality and infection numbers, the world would have been shocked into early action.

        They didn't, and thousands of people have died.

        Call it the 'Trumpovirus' if you like, but the CCP (not the Chinese people) are ultimately responsible for a great deal of the misery caused by this virus. Edit – noticed RL below the ‘CCPvirus.’ I like it.

        • Anne 2.2.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 10:20 am

          Trump actually said something even remotely approaching the truth.

          Maybe, but never forget when he tells the truth it is for the wrong reasons. In this case he's using China to distract from his gross incompetence over the handling of the Covid19 threat and as a result many thousands of Americans are going to lose their lives.

        • Wensleydale 2.2.1.2
          31 March 2020 at 1:02 pm

          Donald's quite happy to be truthful when it's in his interests. Ordinarily, being truthful isn't in his interests, which is why he's a pathological liar 98% of the time.

          • McFlock 2.2.1.2.1
            31 March 2020 at 6:05 pm

            He needs a disclaimer like they do in the movies: "Any similarity between what the doofus says and real people or events is purely coincidental"

        • Sabine 2.2.1.3
          31 March 2020 at 2:51 pm

          the world watched China put over 30 million people into lockdown and no one was shocked.

          the world watched China weld the doors shut on apartment blocks and the world was not schocked.

          the world watched China build two hospitals with a thousand beds each and the world was not schocked.

          currently the world is watching Traump saying that he takes no responsability, that his response to the crisis is a 10, and that 100.000 – 200.000 dead is his administration doing a good job and the world is not schocked.

          No the Chinese are not responsible, considering that D. Trump knew on Januare 22nd of the first case of this virus and did nothing. No he insisted that they would have no cases.

          China alerted the WHO in December to this virus. WHO decided that we need to save the economy and that travel is A ok.

          so no, our governments have television, they saw what happened in China on their tellies just like you and me, and they did nothing.

          So no, it is not the 'China' virus, it is a virus who gives no shit about whom it kills, aided and abetted by various governments doing nothing much until it was to late.

          • Paddington 2.2.1.3.1
            1 April 2020 at 10:15 am

            So it's Trumps fault that the Chinese host live animal markets in the most disgusting conditions? It's Trumps fault that the Chinese lied about the spread of the disease, and suppressed dissent? Your dislike of Trump may be understandable. Your running interference for a totalitarian regime from which this pandemic originated is disgusting.

    • Cinny 2.3
      31 March 2020 at 8:32 am

      Absolutely agree they haven't been honest about the numbers. I heard something yesterday about that, trying to remember which media platform it was on.

      However, I’m not into calling it the China virus, not fair on the ordinary Chinese people who are caught up in it all just like everyone else.

    • Andre 2.4
      31 March 2020 at 8:43 am

      Calling it the "Chinese virus" is merely a useful distraction from the actions the barbecued bloviator took that crippled the US ability to respond.

      He got rid of the official embedded in China's health bureaucracy that would have given an early heads up.

      He got rid of the US government's pandemic response team.

      All his early statements and actions were about downplaying and delaying actions around the threat.

      He ignored the pandemic response playbook left him by the Obama administration.

      And so on, ad nauseum …

      • I Feel Love 2.4.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:26 am

        Could be the "American Virus" in the near future.

        • Andre 2.4.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 9:27 am

          "Trump Virus"

          Surely he’d want full credit for the first, bestest and bigliest pandemic of the 21st century.

          • Gabby 2.4.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 10:25 am

            WuhanTedros virus has a ring to it.

          • Anne 2.4.1.1.2
            31 March 2020 at 10:35 am

            Not as silly as it sounds.

            When they finally manage to get it under control (after100,000 or more deaths) he'll claim that… China planted the virus all over America and that's why we lost so many people. But we won folks – China lost – because we have the bigliest and bestest experts in the world and we stopped the virus. No other country was able to stop the virus as bigly as we have. God bless America and God bless me.

      • RedLogix 2.4.2
        31 March 2020 at 9:41 am

        I'm calling it the 'CCP Virus'.

        • Andre 2.4.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 9:53 am

          Seen some things that suggest the Wuhan health authorities hid what was going on from their Beijing higher-ups. Risky being the bearer of bad news, and all that.

          I guess since it's CCP all the way down in administrative structures, that still makes it fair to blame the CCP for the information suppression. Dunno if there would have been any more honesty in communication to the rest of the world even if Beijing had been fully aware early on …

      • ianmac 2.4.3
        31 March 2020 at 10:02 am

        Thanks for the new word Andre.

        bloviator (plural bloviators) One who habitually bloviates; a pompous, opinionated, typically voluble commentator.

    • bill 2.5
      31 March 2020 at 5:36 pm

      They suppressed news of the scale of the outbreak for 3 weeks, when, one medical commentator estimates, 95% of the deaths could have been avoided.

      Did they fuck. And fuck this racist shit your buying into/displaying that would simultaneously ignore bad shit because it's associated with "the other", and then blame "the other" when the bad shit turns out not give a crap for stupid racist notions of decompartmentalised humanity.

      On Dec 26, four unusual cases of pneumonia were noticed by Dr Zhang, who then reported those cases to the local centre for disease control.

      The WHO was notified by China on Dec 31.

      Covid was identified on Jan 7.

      Wuhan City was shut down on Jan 23.

      15 further cities were shut down on Jan 24.

      https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

      • aj 2.5.1
        31 March 2020 at 7:44 pm

        Yes I noticed this but everyone has different 'facts'. Tomas Pueyo is one of the most rational commentators and his timeline looks correct. But as usual it doesn't suit the agenda of everybody.

        • bill 2.5.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 8:03 pm

          If the timeline was incorrect, I'm sure the racist wankers up-thread would have pointed out the errors with links to correct dates. I mean, there will be source after source to verify given points on that timeline. The cone of silence from the aforementioned ones tells you all you need to know on that front, aye?

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.5.2
        1 April 2020 at 2:45 am

        But between the end of December and January 23 the CCP tried to suppress the seriousness of the outbreak, or did Dr. Wen Li die in vain?

        And do you lock down 800 million people (the end number) or a city of 11 million for a handful of deaths?

        I am not being racist (a catchall phrase to describe anything you disagree with) by holding the CCP culpable for the spread of this virus.

        • bill 2.5.2.1
          1 April 2020 at 10:49 am

          But between the end of December and January 23 the CCP tried to suppress the seriousness of the outbreak …

          Notifying the WHO would be a reflection of how seriously they took things, no? And the WHO were notified on Dec 31.

          According to the BBC, Dr Li Wenliang "sent out a warning to fellow medics on 30 December but police told him to stop "making false comments". "

          CNN offers some clarification on that front…

          As he told CNN, "I only wanted to remind my university classmates to be careful."

          And also from CNN… On January 3, Li was called to a local police station and reprimanded for "spreading rumors online" and "severely disrupting social order" over the message he sent in the chat group.

          The message he sent inaccurately stated patients were being treated for SARS.

          You tell me. A Doctor sending out unauthorised public messages in NZ (or elsewhere), they would avoid sanction or censure would they? No. No, they wouldn't. And for good reason.

          Look, bureaucracies are crap, no matter the larger framework they exist within.

          And minimising or dismissing "uncomfortable" messages and spinning "feel good" bullshit is a time worn feature of bureaucracies everywhere.

          Dr Li didn’t “die in vain”. He caught Covid 19 and died.

          Also…And do you lock down 800 million people (the end number) or a city of 11 million for a handful of deaths?

          Well, yes – if you’re taking things seriously and recognise the possible potential of the disease you’re dealing with.

    • instauration 2.6
      31 March 2020 at 10:50 pm

      Oh Anne Marie

      When I was a nipper I deflated the tyres of many but random kerbside parked vehicles in Kelson (Major Drive – 1969) – cos I could – no conspiracy there.

      Hey Veitch – your conspiratorial assertions resonate with prescribed Woodrow Wilson narratives – else 77th Brigade – funding abounds.

    • sumsuch 2.7
      31 March 2020 at 10:51 pm

      Quite right. 10 % trade to them to at the most.

    • instauration 2.8
      31 March 2020 at 11:15 pm

      Veitch

      We know how Gay McDougall is funded and contrived

  3. Sanctuary 3
    31 March 2020 at 7:21 am

    My suggestion for the guy from Central Otago whining in the Herald this morning about his quarantine conditions in a hotel as "prison like" is that he spend some of his quarantine time in an actual prison, just by way of comparison.

    You can tell we are moving to a new normal – the Herald has gone back to being the paper of record for the reckons and whinings of right wing middle class white people, and RNZ has gone back to nit picking for tiresome gotchas and reporting the opinion of every medical Cassandra in Christendom.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.1
      31 March 2020 at 7:40 am

      And the Natz reverting to campaign mode – that didn't take long!

      https://twitter.com/NZNationalParty/status/1244514882449371136

      • Wayne 3.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:05 am

        I had a look at the Twitter item. On what basis do you think that is campaigning?

        The Committee is specifically intended to hold the govt to account, to ask difficult questions, and to make suggestions.

        We don't yet live in a one party state. There will be serous questions to be asked. For instance not everything the Police Commissioner says is law. Sometimes he goes too far in saying what you can do and not do. Every day the formal Covid 19 Notices are different in what you can do or not do. No wonder people are confused.

        Of course a lot of this is just teething problems. But it is hardly likely that the Govt knows everything and does everything right, and the Opposition knows nothing, and does nothing right. Though I am sure that is what you think.

      • Ad 3.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 9:24 am

        So what if they are anyway?

        It would be great to hear fresh thinking from the Opposition about what our future much-reduced economy could be.

        In the meantime, this government has now complete control of the entire economy and all our physical movement. We may well agree with the reasons, but I'd like at least an alternative view on that from someone at least.

        • Wensleydale 3.1.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 1:04 pm

          "…fresh thinking from the Opposition…"

          Heh. Don't get your hopes up, mate.

      • Incognito 3.1.3
        31 March 2020 at 2:39 pm

        Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose (AKA the more things change, the more they stay the same AKA same old National).

    • aom 3.2
      31 March 2020 at 8:09 am

      And so has Stuff: 'Coronavirus: Patient twice refused test before Covid-19 diagnosis'. The story is about a reporter who was told that he didn't fit the Covid-19 indicators for a test but was tested anyway! It is all very well for Tom Kitchin to opine that the criteria were not liberal enough but this is a pandemic and it has been taking time and superhuman efforts to ramp up the resources that are needed. A serious concern in this case is that the reporter had flu-like symptoms and may not have self-isolated because of his 'special status'.

      Instead of this crap, Stuff could support the efforts of the medical profession and put its click-chasing reporters to better use.

      [I’ve changed your user name back to the one we know you by. Could you please stick to one from now on, thanks – Incognito]

      • New view 3.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 8:22 am

        Calm down. The reporter is making the point that the testing criteria doesn’t always do the job. If someone like him has the virus and ends up not being tested and thereby putting the community at risk it shows the testing protocols don’t work in certain circumstances. He’s entitled to share his experience. If you don’t believe the Governments systems should be scrutinised that’s your problem not his.

      • Treetop 3.2.2
        31 March 2020 at 10:04 am

        If you think you have it assume you have it. I know this is blunt.

        It is human to want to have certainty.

        Is a Covid-19 test going to give you certainty or peace of mind?

        You could test negative when you are positive.

        What needs to be made clear is that if you deteriorate the NZ health system needs to test you or admit you.

        For some people it is the first time when they do not feel listened to by a clinician that they have a condition.

        There are some health conditions which can take many health visits to a specialist/s to diagnose example systemic scleroderma. All the damage can be internal (a sine case) and if the correct investigations are not carried out the condition is overlooked even if the lab work confirms the ANA (at the highest level) and ENA for the condition.

        • New view 3.2.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 10:19 am

          All you say is true. But l’ll just add its those that don’t think they have it but do, who are the worry. Let’s hope all those people isolate as recommended. Very difficult to find the perfect answer I agree.

          • Treetop 3.2.2.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 10:37 am

            Being asymptomatic and being a carrier, this is why more Covid-19 testing needs to be carried out. Also the importance of physical distancing and remaining in your bubble is being wise.

            I would like to see some westerns and classic movies be put on free national TV.

      • Incognito 3.2.3
        1 April 2020 at 12:07 am

        See my Moderation note @ 8:09 AM.

        • aom 3.2.3.1
          1 April 2020 at 10:27 am

          Apologies and thanks Incognito – hadn't noticed that the name had been auto-filled.

    • Cinny 3.3
      31 March 2020 at 9:13 am

      simons committee does their first live stream today, that should be interesting.

  4. Andre 4
    31 March 2020 at 8:12 am

    AOC comes around to the merits of trying to work with and help set the direction of the establishment instead of just wanting to smash it.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/30/new-aoc-divides-the-left-150767

  5. Molly 5
    31 March 2020 at 8:14 am

    A question for any medical practitioners out there (McFlock, – if you are reading).

    I was talking to my partner about another family member who used to regularly use ibuprofen or aspirin for treating fever and headaches in her children, and was surprised to hear about Reyes Syndrome. I realised that my own practices haven’t been reviewed in sometime, so…

    When talking about reducing fevers in children, one of my go-tos as a parent was putting a waterproof sheet under my child, and then using a wet, cloth nappy and wrapping it around their stomach and then swathing this in towels to keep the sheets dry, when they are covered up again.

    In practice, the wet nappy heated up fairly rapidly, and after several repeats over the day, their temperatures consistently reduced, without the need for medication.

    Given the current Covid-19 situation, I am aware that although I briefly discussed this technique with my GP over twenty years ago, and they didn't seem concerned – I haven't really given much thought to whether there would be any negative effects.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on why this might be detrimental to use in the case of fever or viral infections?

    • mauī 5.1
      31 March 2020 at 8:46 am

      Dr. John Campbell weighs in, (he gives his thoughts at the start and end of video).

      "Reducing fever, good or bad"

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJqSdmNNwW4

      • Molly 5.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:02 am

        Thanks, maui.

        Not a fan of using paracetomol or antipyrectics for the reason that I would prefer an effective immune system response, which he reinforces.

        The GP at the time set the limit for temperature over 40 degrees, which was where I needed to get in touch with her, so I would let the temperature rise until then, and when it approached 40 or just over, use the technique to keep my kids comfortable. It may be that I need to review that temperature gauge and the length of time that I allow that to continue, or abstain from any interruption at all. That said, my kids are no longer kids.

        His second video, has the note from the US National Library of Medicine:

        Brain damage from a fever will generally not occur unless the fever is over 42 degrees. Untreated fevers unless caused by infection will seldom go over 41.6 degrees. Paraphrased for editing time limit.

        (As a note, GPs since then have consistently recommended paracetomol, in contradiction to Dr John Campbell on the video. )

        • Pingao 5.1.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 9:22 am

          To be fair, Dr John Campbell says that he is speaking about adults and also, people should talk to their doctors who will know what is right for them.

          In a later video, on one of his daily updates, he seems to say something about reducing fever … that sometimes it is needed. This update was really recent – maybe yesterday.

          I find his updates by googling "Dr John Campbell 31 march" for example. As he is a teacher, I find his explanations with the medical side notes very easy to understand and helpful.

          • swordfish 5.1.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 5:10 pm

            Yeah … John Campbell's one of a group I’ve been following pretty closely since late January.

            He's a firm believer in letting fever run its course (in adults) … but for an alternative view, here's Dr Chris Smith (talking to Kim Hill):

            Viruses grow better at low temperatures. So one of the body's mechanisms to fight off the virus is to drive up body temperature. But, to be honest, it makes you feel so awful & it's not that effective as a means of anti-viral defence. It's better to treat the symptoms, feel a bit better, and then let your immune system do its work rather than just sweat it out and suffer. Most people just prefer to take Paracetamol and feel a bit better while taking it easy to give their body the chance to recover.

      • francesca 5.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 9:14 am

        He's very good , terrific in fact

        I was interested in the adaptation of CAP machines used for sleep apnoea as a safer alternative to the far more invasive ventilators

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/f1-team-helps-build-new-uk-breathing-aid-for-covid-19-patients

    • weka 5.2
      31 March 2020 at 9:55 am

      There's some solid medical opinion about the value of fevers and not suppressing them (fever kills viruses, via temperature and I also think via immune regulation).

      https://www.livescience.com/42763-reducing-fever-kills-others.html

      And the research they are referring to https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2013.2570

      Not exactly answering your question, and there's the complication of some meds also being a bad idea not just fever suppression itself, but I think it's worth considering that often there is no need to suppress fever at all. Symptomatic relief so someone can rest is a different matter.

      • weka 5.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:59 am

        Just seen your comment above about not treating until 40C, which I think is the symptomatic relief.

        • Molly 5.2.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 12:23 pm

          Yes, that was the recommendation of my GP at the time for the kids, which seems to be just below with what the video proposed for allowing the immune system to respond.

    • McFlock 5.3
      31 March 2020 at 6:41 pm

      Not a practitioner – think of them at the pointy end of the spear, and I'm at the safe end of the same spear lol.

      But it might be why we have paracetamol for kids, even though that has its own problems.

      As for whether to try to lower a particular fever, call
      Healthline 0800 611 116. The higher the temperature, the more I suggest you call them.

  6. Janice 6
    31 March 2020 at 8:39 am

    Foodstuffs and Progressive are giving their employees a 10% pay rise, good on them. However, what about the medical staff getting extra pay as well? My daughter works in the recovery ward at Middlemore. Part of her work involves removing breathing and other tubes from patients recovering from surgery, quite often with little or no ppe. She then has to go home to her husband and three boys keeping in their bubble. She tells me that they have to have confidence in the triage staff that they are doing their job and checking all people coming into the hospital. Extra pay won't keep her safe, but it would be some acknowledgement of what she and her fellow workers are doing for us.

    • Molly 6.1
      31 March 2020 at 8:48 am

      I would wholeheartedly support this proposal. The extra anxiety and stress levels experienced by frontline medical staff during this time must be immense. The added concern of wondering whether they are putting their loved ones in jeopardy when they return home means that they might actually have no decompression time or place during the lockdown.

      I hope this is rolled out as part of the Covid-19 response.

    • Cinny 6.2
      31 March 2020 at 8:55 am

      It would be appropriate for all essential workers to be receiving 'danger money' on top of their earnings.

      • Wayne 6.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 9:11 am

        For the low paid, such as in supermarkets, yes, but everyone else?

        At least half of New Zealand workers have had big reductions in pay or will be loosing their jobs. The tax base of the country has been destroyed and will takes years to recover. Is it really reasonable that all those still able to work then get a pay increase?

        • Ad 6.2.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 9:18 am

          With government cashflow down so hard, I can predict that the entire public service will be asked to take a 20% salary cut. It's happened before.

          • Wayne 6.2.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 10:18 am

            Yes, it did during the depression. We are not at that point yet. And if the Level 4 lockdown is only 4 to 6 weeks, it won't get to that.

            But I imagine there will be no pay rises for at least 2 years. That is what happened in the GFC (one year pay freeze). However the Covid emergency is much bigger and therefore I don't see any pay rises for at least 2 years.

          • RosieLee 6.2.1.1.2
            31 March 2020 at 10:48 am

            I just hope they start with the so called "CEOs"

        • Cinny 6.2.1.2
          31 March 2020 at 9:19 am

          True, I guess those who work in medical industry etc, do that work with an understanding of their obligations during an emergency etc.

          Is that where you are coming from Wayne?

          • Wayne 6.2.1.2.1
            31 March 2020 at 9:31 am

            I think it is a balance. Some will be going to huge lengths and maybe deserve additional compensation. For others it is basically normal work. After all the great majority of hospital patients are not Covid 19 and are not affected by the precautions. A nurse at Middlemore has told me her normal routine has hardly been affected, but then she s not involved with Covid 19 patients. In fact she said her normal workload has actually reduced, but of course there are heightened concerns.

          • Nic the NZer 6.2.1.2.2
            31 March 2020 at 8:01 pm

            Wayne would like this framed as a mandatory squeeze on public sector wages. There is nothing mandatory about such a policy and never was. This particular proposal amounts to implementing harmful pro cyclical fiscal policy which will drag out the recovery period from the coming recession.

        • millsy 6.2.1.3
          31 March 2020 at 10:30 am

          Yes it is. Otherwise we run the risk of people being on the same rate of pay for their entire career, something that your lot tried to impose with the ECA.

          This must not be used an an exucse to hold down living standards.

          • Wayne 6.2.1.3.1
            31 March 2020 at 11:09 am

            There is a difference between restraint now and for the next two years, and forever.

            The economy is going to be really knocked back over the next two years, and during that time I don't see any widespread pay increases.

            • pat 6.2.1.3.1.1
              31 March 2020 at 11:26 am

              How the world (or NZ) deals with the future is a great unknown….basing predictions on systems prior may not be relevant

            • Treetop 6.2.1.3.1.2
              31 March 2020 at 12:00 pm

              I had a shuffle around in box of stuff the other day and came across "I've been thinking" by Prebble. Best No 1 seller.

              On the cover

              Thoroughly enjoyable and rich in commonsense. Richard Prebble has the courage and honesty to look for original solutions to age-old problems.

              Paul Holmes (Sir)

              I doubt his book covers a scenario like Covid-19. I tried reading the book once and got bored. I will give it another go, it might even be amusing in parts.

              • McFlock …
                31 March 2020 at 6:46 pm

                That book was so full of shit. The best thing about it was the actoid who flipped it to me described it as the only book he'd ever actually read.

                It showed.

                • Treetop …
                  31 March 2020 at 7:28 pm

                  I didn't pay for it, it was free.

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    31 March 2020 at 8:04 pm

                    What are you doing hoarding toilet paper?

                  • McFlock …
                    31 March 2020 at 8:08 pm

                    Yeah they did that. ISTR he was doing a USian thing, where they write the book for the non-electoral advertising.

                  • Chris …
                    31 March 2020 at 9:38 pm

                    I think Prebble gave them away. Had them delivered to letterboxes if my memory is correct. He had the good humour to put Pam Corkery's comment on the back cover which was something like 'someone needs to stop Richard now before he thinks again'.

                    • Treetop …
                      31 March 2020 at 10:16 pm

                      "We must stop Richard before he thinks again."

                      Pam Corkery, Newstalk ZB

                      I tell you some of the presenters now on Newstalk ZB their politics have changed.

        • KJT 6.2.1.4
          31 March 2020 at 11:23 am

          It is reasonable to expect formerly undervalued workers to get a living wage.

          And companies making good profits out of this, to share them.

          It is not reasonable for those at the top to continue to expect their, average, 17% annual increases.

          Cutting wages of those middle income earners who, in reality, pay the bulk of the tax, and contribute the most to the economy, will reduce the tax paid, will it not?

          Most big businesses, that already have their hands out for subsidies, will be net takers from the National accounts for several years to come.

          • alwyn 6.2.1.4.1
            31 March 2020 at 1:25 pm

            "their, average, 17% annual increases."

            Where does that number come from and what period does it cover?

            After all the average for CEOs of the largest NZ companies was 2.2% in the 2017 Financial year. National was in Government for most of that time of course. Perhaps they keep things under control better than the current lot?

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=12134854

            • KJT 6.2.1.4.1.1
              31 March 2020 at 3:28 pm

              https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/ceo-pay-increases-five-times-average-rate

              https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2002/S00035/kiwi-corporates-must-be-shamed-for-bloated-ceo-pay-packets.htm

              "In its annual survey of top CEO pay issued last week, The New Zealand Herald showed the average earnings of already overpaid CEO’s jumped 12 percent last year to $1,750,141 compared with a 2.4 percent rise for average New Zealanders. The top CEO pay-packet went to Fletcher Building’s Ross Taylor, who took home a whopping $5.3 million.

              That was in the last year. Not a good year for CEO pay rises.

              But however you crunch it, and you will get a different number depending on how you define CEO's, their pay went up at least 114% in the same time normal wages went up 26%.

              • alwyn …
                31 March 2020 at 5:10 pm

                You do realise that an increase of 114% over 17 years, which is the period you are talking about, represents a compounding increase of about 4.58% per annum. That is, although quite nice, nothing like the average 17% annual increase you are talking about.

                A 17% increase each year for 17 years would be a total increase of around about 1443%. That is vastly more than the number you quote of 114%..

                The 17 years, by the way is the time period in the ODT link you have provided a link to.

                Thank you for posting an answer. Sorry that the arithmetic was wrong.

                I never thought I would have to do this calculation by going back to a 60 year old set of log tables. My rather more modern calculator has broken down. I wonder if there is anywhere open where I can find a new one?

                • KJT …
                  31 March 2020 at 5:19 pm

                  And 12% last year. One CEO 78%.

                  You really think quibbling over the numbers, which are subject to who you define as CEO's, I'm sure there was a recent year it was 17% by the way, invalidates my point, that CEO pay rises have vastly exceeded everyone else's, for a long period?

                • Incognito …
                  31 March 2020 at 6:37 pm

                  My rather more modern calculator has broken down. I wonder if there is anywhere open where I can find a new one?

                  On your device.

                  • alwyn …
                    31 March 2020 at 7:05 pm

                    I couldn't find an antilog function. No doubt it is there but it wasn't obvious to me.

                    I use to know a surveyor who did work in positioning drilling rigs offshore. This was pre-GPS days. He had the very latest and greatest electronics of the day. However he had seen other people unable to operate because the gear really didn't like salt spray and they could break down.

                    He never went offshore without his 7 figure log tables and waterproof copies of all the basic formula. He always wanted them as a backup.

                    • Andre …
                      31 March 2020 at 7:13 pm

                      It almost certainly was there. Just wasn't called antilog.

                      The antilog (base 10) of x is 10 raised to the power of x. A calculator app that has log will almost certainly have x to the power of y on it, and usually 10^x as well to make antilog easier.

                    • alwyn …
                      31 March 2020 at 8:18 pm

                      I agree, I'm sure it will be there. I just didn't see it immediately.

                      The facility was on my scientific calculator. I think what incognito was talking about was that it would be on my PC. I just couldn't see it easily.

                      What I was looking for was, as you suggest, the value of i such that (1+i)**17 = 2.14. When my calculator wouldn't work I had a very brief look on the PC. When the facility wasn't immediately obvious I simply did it with my log tables and got the answer in about 30 seconds. That was quicker than continuing hunting around on the PC. In fact I even considered doing it on my slide rule. I still have one. Does anyone else remember them?

                    • Incognito []
                      31 March 2020 at 11:29 pm

                      A man like you needs Excel.

                    • Andre …
                      31 March 2020 at 8:50 pm

                      In this case (1+i) is just 2.14^(1/17).

                      All of this exponents stuff you would have learned at the same time as you learned how to use your slide rule. You give the impression that was over a century ago, but still …

                      If your PC contributed to Bill Gates' wealth via its OS, it will have a simple calculator installed which you can access from the start button in the lower left corner. Then you'll need to switch it to scientific by clicking on the settings (3 horizontal lines in the upper left corner).

                      You can also get free calculator apps for your smartphone (assuming you've upgraded from your rotary dial landline). Mine's an Android phone, and RealCalc was just the first free one that appeared on the list that had all the functions I want.

                      Dunno about Apple stuff, sorry. I abandoned the Apple ship and went to the dark side fifteen years ago.

                    • alwyn …
                      1 April 2020 at 12:27 am

                      @Andre

                      Indeed, so there is. A calculator no less.

                      However a smartphone is not among my possessions. My phone, which works perfectly well for phone calls and text messages, and which has a surprisingly good camera, cost me the enormous sum of $5.00. I only really have it for using two level security on banking activities.

                      So no, Apps are not in my repertoire. And don't you dare knock the use of log tables. As I said, it took me about 30 seconds.

      • Incognito 6.2.2
        31 March 2020 at 2:45 pm

        People working in A & E should receive permanent danger money as do ambulance drivers.

    • Sabine 6.3
      31 March 2020 at 10:55 am

      one thing the government could look at is cancel student loan debt for people working on the front line.

      this would make a huge difference in the life of medical staff and other emergency workers. Simply wipe it off as 'debt paid in full via work'.

    • bill 6.4
      31 March 2020 at 1:03 pm

      …good on them.

      Foodstuffs and Progressive, one or the other that announced workers not turning up would be on unpaid leave? Those companies? The same ones who have currently ditched specials that poorer people rely on to keep their shopping in budget? The same companies who have been rabidly anti-union 'since forever'? (I and another union organiser were physically assaulted on two separate sites while organising Foodstuffs a few years back – jist sayin') Are we are to applaud companies that nonchalantly disregard Employment Law as just one of their tactics to keep their workforce non-union? Are we to give three cheers for the same companies that do everything they can to get away with paying minimum wage?

      When you are part of a duopoly that has gouged NZ for years, paying a dollar something extra an hour to workers who are quite literally risking their lives is fucking abominable.

      • I Feel Love 6.4.1
        31 March 2020 at 10:17 pm

        The workers are also begging for gloves and masks to be supplied, the company has said the staff need to provide their own. I did read a report today that both companies say safety equipment is coming, hopefully while the pandemic is still happening and not after. (Considering some of the abuse is customers yelling "why don't you have gloves and masks on!!!!").

        • bill 6.4.1.1
          1 April 2020 at 11:13 am

          I'm going to go out on a limb and predict they will be provided with loose fitting cloth masks or those crap paper composite things that also leave gaps around your face.

          Effective masks (like what you might have previously bought for sanding lead paint from M10 or elsewhere)…I believe they are all manufactured in China.

          The joys of high profits and long supply chains…

  7. Cinny 7
    31 March 2020 at 9:07 am

    Highlights of lock-down so far….

    • My girls are thoroughly enjoying planning and cooking the evening meal, they made gnocchi from scratch the other day.
    • It's hardcase walking into the supermarket feeling like a bank robber, wearing a mask and dish-washing gloves etc to be greeted with friendly smiles and conversation.
    • We caught the cat carefully removing a roll of toilet paper out of the packet. She then quietly tried to destroy the toilet roll, we gave the cat a fright and her little paws were desperately trying to gain traction on the laundry floor to do a runner. Sheez it was funny.
    • We've been treated to a few live piano concerts from the old boy next door, he loves playing Elton John, and opens up his sliding door if it's a nice day so we can hear it. He's so talented.
    • My feet are enjoying slippers over high heels, and no doubt my skin is enjoying so much make-up free time.

    What have been some of your highlights so far?

  8. Ad 8
    31 March 2020 at 9:16 am

    This is the week that it hits the working population really hard.

    Today Air New Zealand announced that it is laying off thousands of its staff.

    All the major construction companies – even those with essential service utility parts to them – will be reducing salaries and then starting to lay off people after that.

    We are in for one almighty deep recession.

    If we are kept locked down for more than 4 weeks we will likely go into economic depression.

    With the unemployment lines about to grow really long and a lot of well known companies on the brink of going under, the pressure will be all on to bring the Alert level back to 3.

    Very few workers outside the public service and the utilities and healthcare trades will be undamaged by this.

    • RedBaronCV 8.1
      31 March 2020 at 11:38 am

      I was reading the RNZ article and it felt inconsistent. Said revenue would drop by around $4.5 billion to $500mil which looks like 90% to me but that the workforce would drop by a third. Looks like they will be flying freight overseas. No mention of high end wage repurposing though. Should our tax dollars be used to over support those at the top

      • Ad 8.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 11:44 am

        We've just taken a 20% salary cut across the board and tiers 1 2 and 3 are at 30-50% down.

        And so far, so far, we are one of the luckier ones.

    • OnceWasTim 8.2
      31 March 2020 at 4:27 pm

      I've been thinking (it hasn't hurt too much so far) about Air NZ. Sure it's going to have to shrink quite a bit, but I'm not sure whether or not it's caught in short/medium term thinking, and thinking that bases its international services primarily as a feeder into the tourism industry. That's going to have to change one way or another

      It might be better to ALSO consider our current ethnic demographic makeup (as well as the potential for freight),

      There'll always be (for example), rather large Indian, Filipino, Chinese, Pacific Island populations wishing to visit their relatives once this is all over – not just the North Americans and British. And they should consider it all with their existing Star Alliance partners.

      Pretty sure there are going to be destinations where you could probably fill a 787 with a stopover on the way, once or twice a week

      Downsizing is going to be inevitable, but is it worthwhile telling a third of a workforce to go get fucked, or is it better to perhaps offer reduced hours employment. So far, from AirNZ management, I haven't seem open and honest discussions (with the various "stake-holders going forward") – oops! I meant 'conversations'.

      But there's probably better things I could be spending my time on instead of worrying about A320, 777 and 787 seat capacities and range, and plotting routes based on potential routes that would likely be sustainable in a non-tourismo Whurl.

      • Adam Ash 8.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 10:45 pm

        AirNZ has eliminated 95% of its scheduled services, they say. With operating costs in the billions of dollars per month, this cannot end well for staff, shareholders or the country.

    • sumsuch 8.3
      31 March 2020 at 10:56 pm

      The back-wave of this swirl of opinion comes from NZ epidemiologists. Not so bad and see Scandinavia.

  9. Herodotus 9
    31 March 2020 at 9:41 am

    Like the shop lifting case some "minor" crimes IMO need to be dealt with far more severely than in better times. Unfortunately in times like this we see the extremes of human nature.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/coronavirus-testing-tent-stolen-in-auckland

    • Treetop 9.1
      31 March 2020 at 1:57 pm

      Thief may not be aware that the tent was used for Covid-19 testing and once discovered might return/dump it.

      Had the tent been marked people might not have attended screening and privacy reasons.

      Rethinking the location where to place a tent is probably the answer. Even placing a security guard near by is problematic.

    • swordfish 9.2
      31 March 2020 at 6:25 pm

      Although my grandmother was very active in the Howard league for Penal Reform … and my family have always held liberal views on the broad law & order issue … I find myself agreeing that authorities need to come down hard on anti-social behaviour during this crisis. Including situations that have been left to fester for far too long.

      After more than 2 years of suffering extremely violent on-going intimidation from their State House nextdoor neighbour (other side of wall): https://subzpsubzp.blogspot.com/ my very elderly parents began the Lockdown having to endure the extreme stress of yet another of his Major Explosions throughout the night (along with the associated enforced sleep deprivation).

      Second night of the lockdown (Thurs 26), their neighbour returned from wherever drunk with some woman – loud raucous shouting / banging / stereo until Midnight. Then she leaves & he begins relentless wall-slamming & banging together with very violent haka-like stomping on the floor near their bedrooms. Whole two-unit house frame & floor shakes. Regular swearing through dividing-wall with very bitter, venomous, threatening overtones. They endure this until close to 4am – at which point they ring me & I ring 111.

      Police arrive, talk to my Parents (& fortunately hear this guy's violent thumping on the dividing-wall while they're there), then seemingly deal decisively with a clearly aggressive neighbour for 15 minutes. They then leave & he (as so often in the past) resumes exactly where he left off 5 mins later. My father then rings 111 again & Police back for another talk to the prick. Same thing happens a second time after they leave. The neighbour finally goes quiet after 6am – at which point my Parents are allowed to go to sleep.

      (As great as the two Police constables were, however, neither had face-masks & both stood on back door step just a metre or so from my Parents on arrival. So two very elderly people in the high-risk group for COVID-19 once again forced to suffer extreme stress & sleep deprivation throughout the night & then, on top of that, had their self-isolation jeopardized).

      Really want to see Emergency Powers used decisively against violent anti-social pricks like this … to finally end an intolerable situation that's been allowed to fester for far too long. And I wonder how many other elderly people around the Country have found themselves dumped in a similar predicament – living in lovely, community-minded street for decades, with quiet, friendly nextdoor neighbours … then suddenly forced to endure horrendous – really Nightmare – situations since the move towards a tacit No Eviction policy combined with the almost exclusive allocation, over recent years, of social housing to the severely problematic end of the Underclass.

      (Don’t want to labour my Parents predicament too much here … when people start going on & on about their private problems relentlessly on social media … it can get pretty tedious pretty quickly for everyone else. But sunlight is the best disinfectant … so will raise the issue … as uncomfortable as it may be for those with a highly romanticised & paternalistic view of the Underclass).

      • Treetop 9.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 6:51 pm

        What you describe is a form of harassment and intimidation. I have never been able to understand why there is not enough legislation for people in your parents situation or the legislation that we have is not being enforced.

        When a person does not respect their self, they are unable to respect anyone else.

        I to would be worried were it my parents whose home is being impacted on by a person who is not coping with life, (the neighbour).

        • swordfish 9.2.1.1
          1 April 2020 at 4:46 pm

          Cheers, Treetop. Appreciate your moral support.

          He's certainly malevolent & (after 2 years of both hearing about his behaviour & regularly observing it up close) I'd say he displays all the classic signs of a Psychopath.

          A number of local Policewomen (one of whom lived down behind my Parents during the first year of this guy's tenancy & witnessed several of his big explosions of violence – they'd already been keeping an eye on him, so he obviously has a criminal record) … together with a Social Worker specialising in helping the Elderly (& associated with my Parents' GP) … have been championing their cause & are trying to put pressure on the local HNZ Tenancy Manager (who, along with her Area Manager, clearly possesses all the power) to initiate an Eviction process.

          But with the Govt's tacit No Eviction policy … she's clearly not interested. Essentially a massive social problem dumped on two very elderly people who have lived in their house for almost 60 years & are about to turn 90. No rights for them / 100% rights for him. Like a spoilt violent malevolent brat who gets to behave however he wishes without consequence. Causing massive stress, fear & sleep deprivation. And, as with so many of the elderly, they endure an enormous amount of violent intimidation before they ever get around to complaining (& even then, they're almost apologetic about it).

          I'll leave the (actually quite self-interested) paternalistic romanticisation of the Underclass to affluent ex-boardingschool Intersectionals (many of whom, of course, are the core financial beneficiaries of Colonisation). As a violently anti-social Underclass (hardcore non-voters) get unceremoniously dumped on the principled, law-abiding, community-minded Poor & Middle-Class (often core Lab & Green voters) in lower & mixed income suburbs … the Govt might just find a really quite sadistic No Eviction policy (parading as 'progressive' & 'enlightened') comes back to bite them on the bum.

          Anyway … thanks to you, RedLogix, Sacha, Graeme & one or two others for your moral support in various comments / replies over the last 12 months.

          • RedLogix 9.2.1.1.1
            1 April 2020 at 5:11 pm

            I'll keep this short.

            Record it. Take it to your MP and see if they can connect you to someone senior in HNZ. If necessary see if you can get a senior QC legal heavyweight to act pro-bono on your parent's behalf. Be reasonable and understated, but persistent. Explain that this cannot continue and unless they can help you will have to go to the media with it.

            To all the silent lefties on this … this is a perfect example of why you cannot help someone unless and until they are ready to take responsibility for themselves. Anti-social's like him will only see leniency and offers of help as weakness that they will use and exploit to inflict as much hurt as they can.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2020 at 5:23 pm

              I’ll keep this short. I'm with swordfish, and you (great advice, esp. re MP), but was it necessary to have a go at "all the silent lefties" to make your point?

              • greywarshark …
                1 April 2020 at 5:34 pm

                If Red Logix was here he would roll up his sleeves, being a practical man this would be a first action, and get stuck into this abomination. So come back and do it Red L, we need your heft.

                • RedLogix …
                  1 April 2020 at 5:57 pm

                  Well yes; here in Aus we've been through the experience of having an antisocial tenant neighbour. (We rent here in Aus). We made the mistake of not acting soon enough, making excuses and hoping that it would just 'go away'. Well it didn't; it had to be confronted.

                  When living in NZ we lived in one of our units and we had two tenants next door who sound similar to the type swordfish describe, but not as directly threatening to us. They were shit magnets … in the interests of privacy I'll not repeat all the ear-bleeding things we heard and saw. Again we made the mistake of tolerating it, making excuses and assuming they'd get better if we tried to help. It didn't.

                  But the hard lesson is that you have to go early, go hard. The Police in our case were very helpful. In particular we learned the value of video recording. Have two cameras, one obvious, one hidden. If the behavior stops when the visible camera is present, you know you are dealing with a conscious, self controllable behaviour. If not you know you are likely dealing with a serious mental health issue. This will help inform you where you are most likely to get some help from.

                  For certain I understand the pain these people are in, and how their lack of self-control (which is a deep and complex topic) means they constantly over-react and inflict their hurt on others. There is no excuse for this. You have to act, and I know pretty much the area swordfish is in and if we were back home, I'd personally make contact.

            • swordfish 9.2.1.1.1.2
              2 April 2020 at 5:43 pm

              Thanks, Red.

              Really appreciate your solid practical advice. Just been discussing a joint deputation to the local MP with my Parent's longstanding neighbours across the road (who keep in touch with me by email).

              And yet another explosion last night.

              He'd apparently been elsewhere for a couple of days, arrived home for about an hour yesterday afternoon with a mate, both swearing their heads off outside "Fucking" this, "Fucking" that in his usual venomous way, really bad atmosphere, stereo on at full-volume. He then heads off, quiet rest of day, my Parents go to sleep, then suddenly woken after 3:30am this morning by him walking back & forth directly outside, along their fenceline swearing violently … and I know from observing him close-up precisely what that's like … very violent, very bitter … basically shouting "Fucking Cunt !!!, You Fucking Cunt !!!" and so on. Like someone desperate for violence.

              Fortunately it only went on for a few minutes and then he went off elsewhere … They thought that was the end of it … but a little over an hour later they're woken by him once again arriving home and full-scale swearing, constant, aggressive, very loud outside his front door: "Fuck, Fuck, Fuck !!!" shouted in very quick succession (from my observation in the past, a teeltale sign he's in an extremely violent mood) , followed by full-scale "Fuck !!!, Fucken Cunt !!! Motherfucker !!!". Then started huge violent slams into what my Parents thought was his front door but could well have been the side of his house (& therefore pretty much the side of their house as well) .

              Didn't hear about it until later this morning … rather than ringing me, my Father rang 111 himself, Police arrived, guy was very aggressive & they took him off. Returned about 2 hours later. Neighbours across the road were woken by all the swearing & violence and tried to reassure my Father from their balcony. .He's had enough and is pretty much at the end of his tether.

              But, you know, as long as the HNZ / Kāinga Ora Tenancy Manager is comfortable with it, that's the main thing. Delay until Ngati Toa take control, meekly observe as an elderly couple are terrorised by a sadistic little shit & make damn sure your career isn't in any way jeopardized by compromising the No Eviction policy. Talk vaguely, instead, about "Wrap-Around Services". As you've implied, this prick aint gonna change. And he's being massively massively massively indulged.

              All this kind of shit was absolutely unheard off in their street up until 3 or 4 years ago. Zero violence or abuse.

              I'm thinking of breaking the Lockdown myself now … just to comfort my Parents & give them moral support. Labour Party voters & activists all their lives … it'd make you weep.

              Anyway, I won’t go on about it anymore on The Standard … I know how tedious it can get on social media when people endlessly rehash their personal business … so I’ll make today the last time. But a genuine thanks to you & others here for your moral support & advice.

          • joe90 9.2.1.1.2
            1 April 2020 at 5:41 pm

            Tasman Police have set up a Mobile Manaaki team to deal with these things.

            Our local plods have assigned a Sergeant and eight Constables to set up police reassurance teams.

            I assume your district will have something like these teams, too.

            https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK2003/S00565/mobile-manaaki-caring-on-the-move-in-tasman.htm

      • greywarshark 9.2.2
        1 April 2020 at 5:32 pm

        I can't understand why the man is not arrested and taken to overnight at the police cells. In the 1960s women were working with the police to get domestic violence treated seriously and police started a policy of treating it as serious and not some tiff that had gone over the top.

        I can't understand why we haven't still got that situation. It appears that we have slipped back, and all the efforts of so many good people to get effective practices adopted seem to have been wasted.

        I feel that I have read about this problem before Swordfish. This should not still be going on, it is so unfair and why we get such high readings for the quality of our lives in NZ must be because some people are just wearing blinkers.

        • KJT 9.2.2.1
          2 April 2020 at 6:08 pm

          We had a neighbour like that.

          Even after he threw rocks at me, on camera, and threatened to leave me dead on the side of the road, the cops only put him in cells for a night.

          Couldn't evict him. He owned the house. Son of well off parents, and on drugs, with not enough to do.

          Particularly annoying, when someone got two years, for doing the same thing to a politician.

          In the end we had to move. My family was getting affected with the constant worry. A few weeks later he sold his house and moved.

          I fail to see what “Labour party and lefties” have to do with the situation.

          It is the cops, who are to busy chasing dope smoking brown teenagers, who are not doing their job.

        • swordfish 9.2.2.2
          3 April 2020 at 5:33 pm

          Thanks, Grey. yeah I just find this whole never-ending Saga absolutely jaw-dropping. The way it's been allowed to continue unabated for so damn long. Shines a bright light on precisely where power lies. Who's expected to suffer genuine, full-on violence & enormous stress in silence & without redress on a weekly basis & who gets to monopolize media & elite attention with fabricated melodramas surrounding Safe Spaces from ideas they don't like in Uni lecture theatres.

          I think the way my Parents have been thrown to the wolves (and, I'm sure, it's also happening to other elderly people around NZ in the same type of suburb, indeed to innocent people of all ages) transgresses most people's understanding of Right & Wrong.

          In the end, it's the Govt's tacit No Eviction policy that stops the HNZ Tenancy Manager from doing what I'm sure she knows is the right thing. Which is why I'm less than happy at the moment with a Labour Party that my Parents have given so much time & effort to electing over the past 70 years. Indeed, my Grandparents helped build the bloody Party in the first place. It's not that I think Labour people deserve some sort of special treatment … it's that I think a Labour Govt should be grounded on very clear ethical foundations, with a focus on the human rights of everyone, not just favoured segments or demographics.

          So, we have a Labour-led Govt lazily adopting a callous, almost brutal (No Eviction) response to a housing crisis created by its National predecessor. A response that results in endless misery for innocent people (at which point, National's policy to evict violent / anti-social tenants, thus protecting their (often equally poor) neighbours actually starts looking pretty damn good, even if the policy was formulated for cynical reasons … extraordinary that Labour's allowed itself to fall into this kind of moral abyss).

          Anyway … this really will be my last word (I keep promising to shut up about it but never quite get around to it).

  11. RedLogix 11
    31 March 2020 at 10:06 am

    Perhaps the single most powerful tool NZ can have to rebuild after this event is a capable and trusted public sector. By capable I don't necessarily mean 'large fraction of GDP and many staff', but a public service oriented toward competency and excellence.

    Nations that are well run, high trust societies that adhere to the rule of law are relatively sparse at the moment. We don't have many natural advantages as a trading nation, and our geographic isolation has always meant being highly reliant on trade in physical goods was an uncertain play. The ground is always prone to shifting under us.

    Given this will always be the case, it seem the most valuable trait we should develop as a nation is adaptability. I once played school rugby against a guy who went on to become an All Black. He was no faster nor stronger than me, but he had a quality I could never match … no matter what I did I could never unbalance him.

    • Ad 11.1
      31 March 2020 at 10:25 am

      +100

      And even those who are not public servants will need to build within themselves a 'public service' ethos; we will be in full country-rebuild for many years to come.

      New Zealand and Australia both have high trust in their public institutions, and Australia is stronger for having more layers of government to sustain its public sector economy.

      New Zealand is very thin for competent public service managers and has a small public sector anyway. We are well overdue for a massive rebuild of what it means to work for the good of your country.

    • Gabby 11.2
      31 March 2020 at 10:54 am

      So, disestablish MBIE and MFAT then? That would be a start.

      • RedLogix 11.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 11:11 am

        I'm really quite agnostic about the exact structures and labels we put on the institutions; there are many others with far more experience than me in public administration who will have much more informed ideas on this.

        But restoring respect and excellence in the public service is something we can all understand; good institutions are built with good people … and we should want the best people serving the nation before we get bogged down in how we organise them.

        • Gabby 11.2.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 12:32 pm

          Superministries seem to become far too busy and important to waste time helping people when there are conferences to attend and lobbies to redecorate.

        • Treetop 11.2.1.2
          31 March 2020 at 2:10 pm

          I think a broad spectrum of people need to be on a committee/board. At least one person who is Maori and another person on welfare. That would then ensure a balance of views. Too many on committees/boards going yes, yes to one another only serves a specific point of view.

          Note: other nationalities also require representation.

      • Ad 11.2.2
        31 March 2020 at 11:45 am

        The question isn't one of destruction.

        The question is the institutions that ought to be built or rebuilt.

  12. Cinny 12
    31 March 2020 at 10:13 am

    Agent orange is about to start his live presser, if you are interested in listening to his propaganda, here is a link to the live stream.

    • Gabby 12.1
      31 March 2020 at 12:33 pm

      It would be worth watching if you had a bet on the first reporter to be caught calling him a lying cword.

    • bill 12.2
      31 March 2020 at 12:44 pm

      So…I clicked in at random and… at 43min, you too can subject yourself to corporate Christian nonsense and a veritable assembly line of corporate "white knights" wanking on their inherent goodness.

      lol Jockey's up 🙂 46 min (with nice wee cross dangling round neck) – the underwear company is apparently "pulling its sleeves up" 🙂

      I can't watch any more.

  13. AB 13
    31 March 2020 at 10:43 am

    New Zealand's Mike Pence* has popped up with this. Disaster capitalists are on the move it seems:

    "Former Prime Minister Sir Bill English, in a presentation to investment group Jarden that has been summarised on Kiwiblog, said the Covid-19 crisis will change the economy permanently …The Government will need to rebuild business confidence which may mean having to do things that don't sit well with its core beliefs, English reportedly said, such as scrapping regulations to help ensure economic survival."

    * The resemblance to Pence consists of wooden personality, strong religious views and extreme right wing economic ideology. Perhaps C-19 might even be viewed as a divine form of 'social investment'?

    • RedBaronCV 13.1
      31 March 2020 at 11:43 am

      I think they should run with their maybe?core beliefs. Dropping excessive wages or taxing them hard. A wealth tax ( which is likely fairer than a CGT which captures only individual transactions) and worker seats on boards etc . These will bring us back faster than excessive capture of the economy by the top few %.

    • greywarshark 13.2
      1 April 2020 at 5:38 pm

      AB Don't make me splutter my green tea.

  14. Rosemary McDonald 14
    31 March 2020 at 11:26 am

    Mother of severely disabled child chooses not to observe the Singer Protocol and instead begs the Misery of Health for PPE to protect her child and carers during the Pandemic.

    The Misery, predictably, issues a emphatic FU to the disabilty sector regarding the use of such protective gear.

    Despite actual doctors with frontline experience with infection control suggesting such advice from the Miserly should be reviewed.

    Luckily, my anxiety levels are barely above normal on this particular issue as fortunately with family in Wuhan, our preparations for managing Peter's severe disability are somewhat ahead of many of the rest. We stocked up on gloves and made dozens of masks and have ramped up our already OCD handwashing.

    And we have long since abandoned any expectation of any kind of support or the most basic understanding of how are lives are everyday from the fwits working at the Ministry of Health.

    Piece on RNZ this morning if someone could post the link.

    🙂

    PS Oh, and vitamin C.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/413005/covid-19-mother-of-child-with-disability-wants-ppe-for-care-workers

    • weka 14.1
      31 March 2020 at 11:35 am

      is the MoH witholding PPEs or doesn't have enough?

      • Carolyn_Nth 14.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 12:10 pm

        I have been watching some of the select committee for epidemic responses – online & virtual committee on the Parliamentary channel on freeview.

        Actually, very sensible questions and process.

        Questions have been asked of Bloomfield & David Clark about reports of lack of access to PPEs for people who need them.

        This is one of the puzzling issues. The standard reply is that NZ has adequate supplies of PPEs. Part of the answer seems to be about getting the correct PPEs to those who need them – a selection and distribution issue. They government is looking at setting up an online portal addressing some of this issue. But I'm still not clear about this.

        Partly the portal is for those with potential supplies to register, I think. I didn't watch the whole qu & a session.

        • weka 14.1.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 2:03 pm

          thanks, I haven't been following that at all. Makes sense about the distribution side. We do have a pandemic plan so presumably that includes having the necessary PPEs in stock.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 12:18 pm

        Putting this up front…there has been more than one occasion over the past two decades when I have found evidence that suggests that in the eyes of enough at the Miserly the (their) world would be much better if there were fewer disabled New Zealanders to be bothered about.

        The whole ' PPE not necessary if carers keeps one meter away from caree' rule demonstrates the level of ignorance these numpties have as to the hands on nature of most medical/nursing care. As Peter asked just now, "Do they think the cripples are scrubbed with a long handled broom in the shower?"

        If, and that's a very big if, the Ministry does have the millions of masks and gowns and gloves they claimed the other day when those pesky nurses and doctors were whinging about the lack of, they must be saving them up for a rainy day.

        Onya, Ministry fuckwits. Way to go with your planning by failing to protect the frontline workers NOW, because, like, you've already got 21 in isolation from Grey hospital and how many others NZ wide because you choose to ration the necessary protective gear.

        Weka, thanks for the link btw, and there's an article in Stuff about similar rationing of gear in NYC, putting overworked, stressed and hence immunocompromised frontline staff at risk.

        TBH, those actually doing the hands on work in the health and disability sector worldwide are treated like shit…exploited shamelessly by governments and corporations because most carers are basically caring people.

        And this contravenes the neo lib free market rules.

        I'd be putting the bureaucrats on the frontline…

        • weka 14.1.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 2:02 pm

          I'm guessing it's a mix of things. Including wanting to prioritise different PPEs according to future use. Imagine trying to run the scenarios on whether it's better to use them up now in prevention if that means we don't have them in hospital screening and ICU, along with the lags in restocking.

          But I hear you on the cultural problems at MoH too.

          Re messaging, personally I think they should be honest if they've rationing. They can do that in a calm way, no need to be alarmist, but people need to know. Likewise for tests.

          btw, I took the statement about 1m, to mean those that aren't doing personal cares have less need for PPEs (although I would prefer 2m myself). Obviously those needing personal cares or hands on care need PPEs as do the clients.

    • Treetop 14.2
      31 March 2020 at 12:43 pm

      Not having access to PPE is a serious issue for those being treated with disabilities.

      Families do an amazing job and they do not need to have their anxiety increased by carers not having access to PPE.

      Do you know if those who are under ACC are being treated differently when it comes to having access to PPE?

      ACC or the HDC may have guidelines which are not being adhered to or rulings/decisions on the use of protective equipment.

      If this is the case ACC and the HDC need to speak out.

      • Carolyn_Nth 14.2.1
        31 March 2020 at 12:52 pm

        This has partly been addressed in the select committee qu & a with David Clark & Bloomfield – about an hour & a half into the session.

        Some things were not totally clarified. They talked about whether it was a case of getting PPEs to those who need them, or those who want them. The discussion then turned to those who need them.

        They mostly seemed to be talking about professional carers for disabled and ill people – people who home visit several people.

        Bloomfield was talking about needing to be sure that the carers knew how to use the PPEs appropriately. He did hint that they didn't want to give out PPEs unless necessary, cos they were holding onto their stores.

        There was also talk of getting more private companies on board to provide PPEs, mainly I think things like ventilators.

        Also they talked about keeping stuff in reserve for hospital staff to use when they get an influx of cases into hospitals.

        • Treetop 14.2.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 1:15 pm

          I expect more on this at 1.30 pm on ch 1.

        • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.1.2
          31 March 2020 at 1:28 pm

          Carolyn_Nth & Treetop. Just read the update on this issue and this is where the disparity between ACC and MOH will result in tragedy.

          ACC will pay for way more hours per client than MOH:DSS. Accordingly many ACC clients have enough hours funded to provide work for two or three staff practically fulltime. MoH clients are often one of a considerable number clients per caregiver.

          Potential for cross infection high.

          Without the gear and training how to use it….which of course should have been part of the much vaunted Careerforce ‘Levels’ they're so reliant on.

          Ho hum. Hear that sound?

          That's the Miserly's chickens coming hone to roost.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.2
        31 March 2020 at 1:10 pm

        Normally, the 'supplies' issued to ACC claimants are of greater quantity and range than those issued to MOH clients with the same type of impairment.

        Just to clarify…my partner's high spinal injury pre-dates ACC so we can do an accurate comparison.

        All of Peter's supplies are strictly limited and mostly pointless asking for extra. We have been known occasionally to accept alms from an ACC funded friend who gets supplied with a particular single use product by the bucket load that we have to pay $1 a piece for. Peter is supplied 3 disposable vynil gloves per day. Three.

        We have been purchasing extras for years.

        We only occasionally use hand sanitizer, and have never asked for this to be funded. We are making our own.

        I have seen a list of what stuff ACC will fund for it's spinal injured and it is most certainly comprehensive. Whether or not all of ACC's clients are aware of this list and request accordingly is another matter altogether.

        Those in the know get stuff, those not…

        The fundamental difference between ACC and the MOH:DSS Treetop is that ACC clients can claim entitlement to supports whereas MOH:DSS are legally entitled to squat.

        Check out the MOH website.

        TBH, I am surprised that anybody under the MOH:DSS brolly expects anything from them…

        • Treetop 14.2.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 1:28 pm

          You are a clued up lady.

          I have never liked the disparity between what ACC clients can get compared to MOH clients, even for the same condition. MOH clients actually get kicked again as if the MOH funds an item, you cannot recieve funding for it on a disability allowance (DA) or on temporary additional support (TAS) when the DA hits the maximum.

        • Bruce 14.2.2.2
          31 March 2020 at 2:18 pm

          Rationing seems to be standard practice for a while now, I am immune suppresed and use a catheter because of this I am alloted one non reuseable catheter a day. So I source my own. Thanks Government.

          • Treetop 14.2.2.2.1
            31 March 2020 at 2:51 pm

            There is a lady called Edith Eger who was a psychologist and she is now in her nineties. She has a book published titled "the Choice."

            I heard her speak on the radio a few years ago. She was in a concentration camp during WW2.

            Eger said if she put her life in the hands of those running the concentration camp her chances of survival were reduced.

            Yes I can see why you fund and source your catheters.

            It really pisses me off to think someone can get pissed and smash their face up and ACC support them to the max.

            And

            Someone like you are wise enough to not rely on a useless system because were you to do so it could be to your detriment.

          • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.2.2.2
            31 March 2020 at 3:43 pm

            Bruce…been there and done that for a while. Too long. When hearing how others in the MOH spinal impaired community were getting repeated bladder and kidney infections from having to reuse catheters…some poor bastards were getting 10 'single use' catheters per month…I emailed the head of purchasing at the MOH, pointing out the false economy of this. That was before I came to understand that rather than being ignorance it was actually a tactic.

            Worse was stumbling across a commentary mocking those having to do ISC using hand sanitizer as a lubricant on the catheter. This 'expert' disparaged these men for using said chemical sanitizer and causing quite severe urethral irritation. 'Silly people' was the message. This numpty was beyond ever seeing that for someone with perhaps paralysis a burned dick was infinitely preferable to yet another debilitating kidney infection because hand sanitizer was a last resort for sterilizing the much used "single use' catheter.

            I hate those pricks at the Ministry of Health. They rule regardless of who is occupying the government benches.

            • Bruce 14.2.2.2.2.1
              31 March 2020 at 7:22 pm

              I lost my job because I wouldn't use the onsite portaloo and handsanitiser, I didn't fancy using the alcohol on anything but my hands. Management had a proper bathroom with running which would have been OK after cleaning it up a bit but there are strict rules about who could use it. And I agree about the pricks that handle the pursestrings but love very deeply the staff that keep me living.
              I found a good supply of sterile lube to after getting an infection from using the KY, Its not sterile.

  15. pat 15
    31 March 2020 at 11:35 am

    A brief (and by no means complete) appraisal of the headwinds in store…so much more yet to be considered/identified

    https://www.interest.co.nz/business/104322/bnzs-head-research-stephen-toplis-says-economic-activity-will-not-return-pre-crisis

    • bill 15.1
      31 March 2020 at 12:33 pm

      Love how he sneaks in an argument for austerity towards the end there 🙂 ffs…

      Unemployment will be way above the 10% reckoned in that piece – way above. (Those 'wage subsidy' payments are not being made to people who are in work, aye?)

      Also every reason to expect the stock market to boom as everyone and everything plummets – I think it was the DOW recorded its biggest ever daily rise on the same day that US official unemployment rocketed to over 3 million.

      In other words, assuming NZ tracks a similar path to the US (and there's no reason to expect otherwise), the huge disparity in wealth that we've seen until now will pale in comparison to what's coming.

      And bar some form of Green Deal ratcheting up production, NZ assets are going to fall into the hands of US corporations – and a quick look at countries that are politically and economically dominated by a US corporate presence is enough (surely!) to pull out all the stops in order to avoid that situation.

      But…we are governed or managed by dull adherents to a spectacularly awful economic ideology – so expect most of us to experience Great Depression levels of immiseration and not a lot of fuck all besides.

      • pat 15.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 12:39 pm

        Im not as certain as you appear to be that will occur ….indeed i am not certain of anything

        • bill 15.1.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 1:10 pm

          I'd have thought a depression is what follows on from industrial activity more or less grinding to a halt, no? Surely that much is certain (assuming the idiots hang on to capitalist notions of production and distribution)?

          • pat 15.1.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 1:15 pm

            think a prolonged reduction in economic activity highly likely but how that is addressed is far from certain….it is possible (not necessarily probable) that the opportunity to completely change the model will be seized and we could see something more positive emerge…the possibilities are endless , both better and worse.

            p.s. and i wish to revise my previous statement…im still certain about death and taxes

      • halfcrown 15.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 3:59 pm

        Interesting article by Bryan Bruce

        I think something the government can do is get rid of the free loaders like Wilson Car Parking so medical staff don’t have to pay for parking at our hospitals.
        Also, as the supermarkets are rorting the system with veggies Let the veggy shops open as round the corner from where I live there is a specialty food shop allowed to stay open, so if they can why not the veggy shops allowed? Kill the veggy rort the other arsoles are doing.

        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/03/31/guest-blog-bryan-bruce-do-you-want-a-we-society-or-a-me-society-in-post-pandemic-new-zealand/?fbclid=IwAR0P1CAH9VpiQGU4ffHESxWvzJ8Wzuse8olWh8LGAQwvu11WNU52–3m404

        • Incognito 15.1.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 4:32 pm

          I believe medical staff at Auckland Hospital can now use the empty car parks at Auckland Uni.

        • pat 15.1.2.2
          31 March 2020 at 4:48 pm

          Yes Bryan Bruce has done some excellent pieces on this but will they be any more effective this time round?……we (should) have an election later this year…,,what will be in the manifestos and how will we vote?

          The possibilities are endless…both better and worse

        • bill 15.1.2.3
          31 March 2020 at 4:49 pm

          Repeating previous comments – supermarkets should be closed to the public and utilised as distribution hubs by local businesses.

          Hmm – maybe open to the public for pick ups only?

          Anyway. On the distribution hub model, the supermarkets (fuck them) get to take a haircut on profit margins. Any future clusters would then tend to be contained in smaller geographical areas which, when the government gets off its arse on the testing front, should mean more targeted lock downs.

          And if anyone squeals, then the government should introduce price controls, just as many were calling for a few years back when dairy prices were going through the roof. 🙂

          And I know. That doesn't fit with "the ideology". So is probably barely within the realm of "thinkable" for the dullards in charge.

          • Wayne 15.1.2.3.1
            31 March 2020 at 5:21 pm

            That would be hugely difficult to implement. What are these local businesses?

            The reality is that just about all of us buy food from supermarkets. So we have to make them work. And by and large that is what is happening.

            Price controls over the many thousands of goods lines in a typical supermarket would need thousands of bureaucrats? Much better that price monitoring is done by the system that Jacinda proposes.

            We are after all only talking about 4 to 6 weeks at Level 4. After that I reckon we will go down to Level 3. We don't need to communise the economy, as much as Bill may desire that.

            I note many on here are talking about the shambles in Australia, partly caused by having a federal system. The 4,000 cases in Australia is equivalent to 800 in New Zealand. So in truth the difference is not that great.

            • bill 15.1.2.3.1.1
              31 March 2020 at 6:09 pm

              Yeah Wayne. It would take a bit of imagination and intelligence. And I'm sure it wouldn't work in every location throughout the country.

              Where there is a pre-existing local dairy (or possibly other outlet) then it could be made to happen.

              You think that just because there is a habit of buying from supermarkets, that supermarkets should be 'open for business as usual', even though any infection tracing back to, or through a supermarket has the potential to lock down huge swathes of a city? And even though contact tracing would be more or less a logistical impossibility in such a situation?

              My actual preference to price controls is a well supported campaign aimed at NOT dobbing in shoplifters Wayne. But y'know, sometimes a compromise is in order, aye?

              Lastly. I think if this "Shelter in Place" is abandoned after 4-6 weeks, it will only be because it has fallen over as a strategy designed to stamp out the virus.

            • Gabby 15.1.2.3.1.2
              31 March 2020 at 11:42 pm

              Austrilia could be missing even more cases than we are. That might explain the higher death toll.

        • sumsuch 15.1.2.4
          31 March 2020 at 11:01 pm

          Wilson car-parking are pricks to the depths of their soles. From experience.

  16. joe90 16
    31 March 2020 at 12:36 pm

    Sociopathic.

    • Treetop 16.1
      31 March 2020 at 12:58 pm

      No excuse to not have a mask available. Whanganui factory producing 2 grades of masks 24 hours a day (60,000 per day).

      Need to be available at all supermarkets.

  17. Kay 17
    31 March 2020 at 12:54 pm

    Just had a rather disturbing conversation (at a safe distance) with a lady when out on my walk.

    She bailed me up and told me, had I heard, they're going to lift the lockdown in 5 days! 'Of course they're not this will be going on for a long time, where did you hear that?' 'On TV, Jancinda said it this morning, when we've had 5 days of no more cases.' 'Well maybe that means down the track when we haven't had any new cases for 5 days we might drop back to level 3, but we're not going off lock down in 5 days. Our numbers are still going up' ' 'No they're not.' 'They went up yesterday, and they're going to keep climbing for a while yet'. ' (Mumble) well I don't think they will' and hurried off.

    Her uniform and ID badge says she's a caregiver.

    If there's people out there incapable of grasping even the basic facts that are being constantly pushed through the media- or interpreting things how the WANT to hear it- is this going to undermine everything?

    • Ad 17.1
      31 March 2020 at 1:06 pm

      My Dad's the same.

      But we don't have to think of it as denial.

      Better to conceive it as an impulse to repudiate an unseen threat over which we have no power other than passivity. All of our ordinary civil powers and most of our liberties have been taken from us, so we can grant that people will be more human than logical.

  18. dv 18
    31 March 2020 at 1:05 pm

    Geez

    Two reports of customers sitting on and coughing on supermarket workers for not obeying separation rules.

    Police are involved

    They should be trespassed from all food shops!!!

    • weka 18.1
      31 March 2020 at 1:56 pm

      people without access to food will do more desperate things. I hope the police are able to help people not coping with the stress get help, and then keep an eye on the ones who are just being arseholes

      • weka 18.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 1:57 pm

        It reminds me of the people who used to joke to airline staff about being terrorists in the time after Sept 11. That didn't last long once they found that they were taken aside and not allowed on their flight.

    • joe90 18.2
      31 March 2020 at 8:09 pm

      Appropriate response.

  19. Carolyn_Nth 19
    31 March 2020 at 2:37 pm

    Some people are clueless. After much pondering, and having been notified I had mail in my PO Box about 5 or 6 days ago, and having not been away from home for over a week, I ventured out to collect my mail. I planned not to go into the PO Box area if someone else was there, because it is a narrow space.

    I parked outside. A guy, who had been hovering outside his car across the road when I pulled up, was now hovering around the entrance way – to the mail boxes and PO. I waited in my car. He was fiddling with his phone. Eventually I gave up and quickly walked past him. After I keyed in the security PIN, he came up behind me and grabbed the door – clearly he did not know the PIN.

    I turned and told him to keep the 2 meter space, and not to follow me in. He apologised, but it seems held the door open. While I was at my PO Box, he entered and stood to the side in an alcove – less than 2 meters from the door.

    I left feeling grumpy. It's actually against the PO Box rules to tailgate like that for security reasons. I won't be going out again for another week – clueless people abroad. And next time, if there's someone hovering near the PO Box entrance, I'll wait in my car til they leave.

  20. Chris 20
    31 March 2020 at 2:51 pm

    Another fuckwit wanting to match the response to a threat nobody can accurately measure:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120666809/do-the-consequences-of-this-lockdown-really-match-the-threat

    • bill 20.1
      31 March 2020 at 5:01 pm

      but we have now moved beyond that to "flushing out the cases we already have".

      I'd be saying that's a piece of bullshit from Mr Simon Thornley right there.

      edit – it might be worth keeping an eye on Sweden where there is no “Shelter in Place” strategy and compare their infection/fatality rates. If nothing else, it might indicate how effective or ineffective NZ’s lock-down is.

      • Incognito 20.1.1
        31 March 2020 at 5:08 pm

        It appears to be a quote although it’s not clear whom he’s quoting.

        It’s BS because …?

        • bill 20.1.1.1
          31 March 2020 at 5:20 pm

          It's b/s because "flushing out the cases we already have" clearly alludes to a situation where there is no infectious spread of the virus.

          The full quote from the piece is – The justification [for social measures] initially was not overloading intensive care facilities, but we have now moved beyond that to "flushing out the cases we already have".

          No-one knows how many people are infected or what the incidence of community spread looks like, "because testing" (lack of).

          • Incognito 20.1.1.1.1
            31 March 2020 at 11:42 pm

            Ok, thanks.

            I read the ‘flushing’ bit differently but so be it. Apparently, Siouxsie has debunked the chap on Twitter so all is good again 😉

            We do have a low level of community spread but nobody knows or will know exactly what that level is at any given point in time. The isolation measures are intended to slow it down and stop in its tracks. If this works, and it is a bigly ‘if’, then we have a chance to stamp it out completely within our borders. Under the current regime, testing is always a little behind the facts but with good public compliance, testing should get on top of it.

            • bill 20.1.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2020 at 11:05 am

              <i>We do have a low level of community spread …</i>

              Given the lack of testing, there is no way to know whether that statement is true or not. And how is "low level" defined given that Covid is apparently highly contagious?

              "Shelter in Place" isn't designed to "slow it down" before it is stamped out within our borders btw. "Shelter in Place" is the attempt to stamp it out within our borders.

              Unfortunately, that brings us right back to the lack of testing and the fact that we're 'flying blind'. Without widespread testing and targeted levels of lock-down off the back of testing and contact tracing, 'Shelter in Place' will fail to achieve its objective. At that point we'll merely be looking to "flatten the curve" and hoping to spread the eventual +/- 70% infection rate over a period of time such that medical infrastructure isn't swamped

              • Incognito …
                1 April 2020 at 11:03 pm

                Given the lack of testing, there is no way to know whether that statement is true or not. And how is “low level” defined given that Covid is apparently highly contagious?

                What lack of testing? Thousands of tests have been conducted so what specific kind of test do you have in mind?

                The positive cases for which they cannot find the source of infection are defined as community spread. Do you have a different definition? BTW, this number is of the order of 1% of all confirmed cases IIRC. I’d call this “low”.

                • bill …
                  2 April 2020 at 1:34 pm

                  What lack of testing? And community spread is a number, not a definition, and is also covered off by Jacinda Ardern's comment below.

                  From yesterday (April 1) .

                  The Government will soon begin ramping up its Covid-19 testing numbers to 5000 a day, says Health Minister David Clark.

                  That's a 1300, or 35 per cent, increase on the current 3750 daily testing limit.

                  Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said yesterday that the scale of testing was not enough to be able to draw any conclusions about the true extent of community transmission.

                  The short article concludes with this 'cracker' from David Clark around testing people who may be asymptomatic.

                  "There is no point testing people who don't have symptoms, who are unlikely to have the illness."

                  And then the question becomes – who decides whether a person is 'unlikely' to have become infected?

                  Another question that might be worth pondering is whether "Shelter in Place" is being used more to 'cover' for a lack of testing, and much less to eradicate the spread of the virus. See. I could imagine a train of thought running along the lines of – if everyone is isolated, then what does it matter whether a person is tested or not – they're isolated, right? Except for the gaping rents represented by the likes of supermarkets…

                  Anyway.

                  In relation to the heat of the exchange on the other thread – if a commentator indulges in a bit of gas-lighting as McFlock did, and a moderator then cut and pastes that part of the comment that was gas-lighting and adds a cursory and affirmative "QFT", then what the fuck is someone on the receiving end meant to make of that?

        • aj 20.1.1.2
          31 March 2020 at 8:35 pm

          I think S Wiles has debunked Simon Thornley quite throughly on twitter

          • Incognito 20.1.1.2.1
            31 March 2020 at 11:26 pm

            Strike me down with a feather, Siouxsie debunking somebody on Twitter!! I’m not on Twitter.

      • Incognito 20.1.2
        31 March 2020 at 7:10 pm

        I had not seen your edit when I commented @ 5:08 PM.

        Purely looking at the COVID-19 cases in Sweden, do you think they’ve been doing particularly well so far?

        https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

        I’m not sure why Sweden could or even should be held up as an example, except perhaps for the fact that they don’t seem to be in a lockdown as we are here in NZ and other countries around the world.

        • bill 20.1.2.1
          31 March 2020 at 7:57 pm

          I wouldn't be saying they should be viewed as any kind of example. But for purely comparative purposes as a way to gauge the effectiveness of our current Shelter in Place strategy, then the numbers coming from there might be useful.

          I haven't paid any attention to their reported infection numbers to date, so can't say whether I think they're doing particularly well or particularly badly.

  21. ianmac 21
    31 March 2020 at 2:52 pm

    Saw the last 30min of the Select Committee. Interesting that Professor Skegg(??) who was adamant that NZ should be aiming at Elimination rather than reduction. To achieve that he says there should be widespread testing on a large scale to really identify the level of community spread.

    I rather thought that Elimination was the underlying hope for the isolation program. Be good eh?

  22. weka 22
    31 March 2020 at 4:17 pm

    Has the criteria for testing for corona virus/covid19 in NZ been published? Not patients' stories or what patients have been told, but an actual clinical guideline?

  23. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 23
    31 March 2020 at 4:50 pm

    For my sins, I have just spent the last hour watching media reaction to the latest Trump presser. From Fox to CNN.

    If you want to know how Simon would have handled the covid-19 crisis, just look at how Trump, Johnson and Morrison are dealing with it. Let's be charitable to the leader of the opposition – even if he managed the best of the actions of those three right wing 'managers,' that still represents a monumental fuck up.

    He would, like them, have put the needs of the economy first.

    Thank God we've got Jacinda!

  24. Fireblade 24
    31 March 2020 at 5:04 pm

    Singer songwriter Alan Merrill died yesterday of Covid-19 at the age of 69.

    He wrote the song "I Love Rock 'n' Roll" and first recorded it with his band Arrows in 1975. In 1981 Joan Jett & the Blackhearts released a cover version of Alan Merrill's song and it became a U.S. Billboard Hot 100 number-one single for seven weeks.

    I Love Rock 'n' Roll by Joan Jett & The Blackhearts.

  25. The Al1en 25
    31 March 2020 at 6:18 pm

    Corona dog. Contains a few swears.
    My kid sent it to me. Thought I would like it. I didn’t. I loved it.

    • Anne 25.1
      31 March 2020 at 6:44 pm

      The usual perverse British sense of humour. My long gone Dad would have loved it and so do I. 😀

  26. joe90 26
    31 March 2020 at 8:05 pm

    RWNJ's around the world are accusing centre left governments of using the cover of the pandemic to push through in their view, authoritarian measures, while a world leader they've praised has used the pandemic to install himself as a dictator.

    thread

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1244501617141002241.html

  28. Anne 28
    31 March 2020 at 8:36 pm

    Jesus, this makes me angry. As anyone who has been brutally bullied could tell you, there are long term effects that can affect your life for years:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018740944/supermarket-staff-describe-abuse-stress-of-restocking-shelves-in-covid-19-lockdown

    What annoys me is that everyone mutters "unacceptable", "its not right", but no-one does a damn thing about it. The bullies should be chucked out and told not to return until they show some respect – preferably in front of fellow shoppers.

    • Sabine 28.1
      31 March 2020 at 10:35 pm

      it is in german, but i think you will understand that.

    • Treetop 28.2
      31 March 2020 at 10:43 pm

      Wear a body camera and activate it and then put it online and offer a reward to name the person that would fix them and give people at home something to do to supplement their income.

      Make the bullies stack the shelves, most would not last an hour.

  30. joe90 30
    31 March 2020 at 9:36 pm

    Slow motion Jonestowns.

  31. instauration 31
    31 March 2020 at 10:04 pm

    Francesca

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4652246/

    Bullseye vision – forever.

    Plaquenil is toxic – this is reality.

    Trexate next – then TNF – well there goes your immunity.

    From immune to SARS-COV-2 via Hydroxychloroquine to compromised

    immunity via TNF within 12 months – the science is not settled.

  32. sumsuch 32
    31 March 2020 at 11:08 pm

    Beautifully smelling hands but disgusted at that transaction of infection, the supermarket. Just luck . What did I touch last. Not being a woman with OCD. Or our mothers.

  33. pat 33
    1 April 2020 at 12:01 am

    "As Pankaj Mishra recently wrote: “It has taken a disaster for the state to assume its original responsibility to protect citizens.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/how-will-the-world-emerge-from-the-coronavirus-crisis

    what will be the new normal?

  34. pat 34
    1 April 2020 at 6:26 pm

    There may many complaints about testing but this interview demonstrates a good level of competence amongst officials…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018741107/three-attempts-to-get-covid-19-test-before-positive-diagnosis

    ….especially with the new directives

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