Open mike 31/05/2021

132 comments on “Open mike 31/05/2021 ”

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1. Incognito 1

   31 May 2021 at 8:08 am

   Bikes and babies 🙂

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/baby/125276498/green-mp-julie-anne-genter-pregnant-with-second-child-you-have-kids-out-of-love
   • Sacha 1.1

     31 May 2021 at 8:15 am

     Busy

     https://twitter.com/WomenInUrbanism/status/1398837018604425219
     • Incognito 1.1.1

       31 May 2021 at 8:22 am

       
       • Herodotus 1.1.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 9:27 am

         If would be funny but as traffic flows are what they are to see a bunch of selfish liberals think of their agenda at the cost to the many. To want a lane closed and set up barriers for a trial for a very few cyclists to take over a lane especially when the bridge during peak flows is already inadequate. Circle 5 kms either side of the bridge at guess how few cyclists travel between the circle weekdays.

         sure the next crossing include this for the selescted few who would utilise this. But not the current crossing.
         where is the business case to support this ??
         Ps hope all goes well for JAG pregency
         • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 9:33 am

           Do humans need a ‘business case’ for having babies? Not all impacts can and should be limited and reduced to simple dollar terms; this is where our current economic ideologies are counter-productive [no pun]. Ironically, today the report from the Climate Change Commission will be presented today. What will the ‘business case’ be, I wonder …
           • Herodotus 1.1.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 12:56 pm

             Ffs sake relax. I was taking about the bikes and bridges.
             • Incognito …

               31 May 2021 at 1:05 pm

               Chill. Exactly! You were talking about material stuff only. Just as well Government didn’t wait for Treasury or the RBNZ to prepare a ‘business case’ when it had to act last year. Maybe lives are more important than a ‘business case’? Neo-liberal thinking is so reductionist, short-termist, selfish, and shallow; makes for a good ‘business case’, doesn’t it?
         • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.2

           31 May 2021 at 12:01 pm

           Bikes and babies. A great way of spreading schmaltz on a serious economic and structural problem. Great middle class self-interest combining with future-needed requirements it seems to me. The women can rise for bikes and the environment, but are they there for poor mothers struggling for better conditions trying to balance babies and work and shelter and despair?

           If women do have finer feelings and compassion for those women needing help in their community and wider society, it would be seen in great mass shows of concern and solidarity for the strugglers as noticeable and determined as for bike use. But bikes are now the sacred objects to be worshipped and nice people ride them; often rather unpleasant mothers battle with social problems and a dead-centred welfare system, they are not like nice middle-class people, not 'one of us'.
           • Incognito 1.1.1.1.2.1

             31 May 2021 at 12:09 pm

             As with all major crises, the poor are always hardest hit. Climate Change will be no different and possibly worse than anything before.
     • Ad 1.1.2

       31 May 2021 at 9:27 am

       A perfectly timed signal for the release of the Climate Commission roadmap to the government today.

       Also nice to see a sitting government MP do a bit of gentle civil disobedience to push a policy point.
       • alwyn 1.1.2.1

         31 May 2021 at 12:04 pm

         I wonder if Ms Genter considered the effect on the climate of her actions?

         How embarrassing if a recommendation in the Climate Commission Report says we should reduce our use of Air Travel?

         I understand she lives in Wellington. She would appear to have made a return trip from Wellington to Auckland, almost certainly by plane and at taxpayer expense to take part in this exercise. How much CO2 would this have generated?

         Shouldn't someone who purports to care about the effect of mankind on the climate reduce her travel to whatever is really necessary?
         • Incognito 1.1.2.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 12:15 pm

           It is called off-setting (AKA compensating) and doing her job as Green MP.

           Stop you concern trolling with your disingenuous accusations of hypocrisy; a sure sign that you have nothing better than pathetic snide remarks.
           • bwaghorn 1.1.2.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 12:24 pm

             Offsetting, is that the thing were rich tossers sooth their conscience by fucking rural communities with their pines while kicking the cc can down the rd, ??
             • Incognito …

               31 May 2021 at 12:36 pm

               Some folk use that ‘definition’, because it suits them.
               • bwaghorn …

                 31 May 2021 at 4:18 pm

                 Some folk like to lie to them selves,
           • greywarshark 1.1.2.1.1.2

             31 May 2021 at 12:35 pm

             12.15pm
           • Bazza64 1.1.2.1.1.3

             31 May 2021 at 5:07 pm

             So the Greens can litter & pollute because they are the greens ? I might join the Greens !! This offset sounds like a great idea.
             • Incognito …

               31 May 2021 at 5:23 pm

               With such a profound misunderstanding I’d suggest ACT might be a better fit for you or else, National.
         • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.2.1.2

           31 May 2021 at 12:39 pm

           Shouldn't someone who purports to care about the effect of mankind on the climate reduce her travel to whatever is really necessary?

           Just curious alwyn – do you care about "the effect of mankind on the climate"?

           This seems to be a bit of a bugbear for you. First Thunberg, now Genter.

           And also, your criticism – well used by practised diverters, fails to recognise that current society and systems support and encourage individual choices both financially and in convenience, that are detrimental to the environment and community wellbeing.

           The premise that the system needs to change stands – separate from individual instances.

           Some MPs are simultaneously servile and self-serving – Genter is neither, imho.
           • AB 1.1.2.1.2.1

             31 May 2021 at 1:28 pm

             "Shouldn't someone who purports to care about the effect of mankind on the climate reduce her travel to whatever is really necessary?"

             Necessary for what?

             • If she wishes to take effective action against the climate it may be necessary to fly on a plane sometimes – or conversely – it is not necessary to never fly on a plane if that renders you less effective in addressing climate change
             • And concomitantly – it is therefore not necessary to never fly on a plane simply to avoid bogus accusations of hypocrisy by ideologues who want to dissolve large-scale collective action into individual choices – in order to ensure that no collective action in fact occurs
2. Morrissey 2

   31 May 2021 at 8:08 am

   Ouch! Don't think there'll be any Pink Floyd music at the TYT offices for a while

   One of the few rock stars who actually has an intelligent opinion about anything is Roger Waters. He's just brought the hammer down on some especially obnoxious and foolish Russiagaters…
   • Byd0nz 2.1

     31 May 2021 at 10:44 am

     Yea, big thumbs up.
     • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1

       31 May 2021 at 11:07 am

       Roger Waters is great–he must really piss off a number of people.
       • Morrissey 2.1.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 11:14 am

         He inspires many more. The people he "pisses off" do not represent anything like a significant number; they know that as well as we do. Fevered denunciation and smearing, like Ana Kasparian and Mr. Uygur reflexively do in this clip, are all they have to offer.
   • Adrian Thornton 2.2

     31 May 2021 at 10:46 am

     Hi Morrissey, don't know if you saw this from Matt Taibbi?, it is of course a very very long list…

     Master List Of Official Russia Claims That Proved To Be Bogus

     https://taibbi.substack.com/p/aaugh-a-brief-list-of-official-russia

     This was also worth watching…

     Russiagate target Kilimnik speaks out on 'spy' claims, Trump-Russia conspiracy theories
     • Morrissey 2.2.1

       31 May 2021 at 11:10 am

       Yes, I saw that thanks Adrian. Wonder if Jesse Mulligan or Kim Hill or Kathryn Ryan will interview Matt Taibbi or Aaron Maté or Max Blumenthal some time in the near future. Or are they going to stick with the likes of Jonathan Freedland , Anne Applebaum and Alistair Campbell?
3. Sanctuary 3

   31 May 2021 at 8:16 am

   Bryce Edwards is simply using this piece as a stalking horse to launder far right talking points around "free speech” into mainstream discourse.

   The clear implication that "the left" is responsible for the culture wars is nonsense. The origin of the culture wars lies in the political realignment of poor whites in the US South from the early sixties on as a reaction to the civil rights movement.

   Of course, if you are a shill of the right it suits to project blame onto someone else if your desire is for a culture war on "free speech" as a distraction from the fact you have no answers to the multiple crises of modern zombie capitalism, and have given up even pretending to have any answers.

   Edwards is not stupid, yet he continually – and deliberately in my opinion – continues to conflate "liberal" with the left. His out for this is to simply create a strawman – the "contemporary left" – on whose swinging corpse he can then hang various placards proclaiming it's guilt. His arguments may have held some water twenty years ago, describing what is best called Blairite/Clinton centrism which tarted itself up in the raiments of the left by hijacking it's primary political vehicles across the west. But like many academics in a ivory towers of what are fundamentally neoliberal in funding and outlook organisations his thinking has atrophied. That boat cast off with the GFC, with the collapse of centrism (as evidenced by the Pasokification of social democratic 'centrist" parties across Europe) indicating the left long ago parted ways with the sort of centrist liberal politics he accuses it of.

   The truth of the matter is the right is formenting a distraction in the form of a culture war on the nebulous grounds of free speech and in order to get it it needs it's useful idiots in neoliberal academic organs to provide an intellectual framework.

   The left can spend it's time much more profitably than debating these sterile, worn out arguments by seeking to own the future with practical solutions to todays and tomorrows issues.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [I specifically said not to attack the author. Three day ban for wasting my moderator time and creating a hostile environment for the people who put up content. – weka]
   • weka 3.1

     31 May 2021 at 8:34 am

     You’re lucky I didn’t see the second comment, now in trash. Making a note in the backend for future reference. Count this as a second warning about ignoring moderation directions.
   • GreenBus 3.2

     31 May 2021 at 8:49 am

     Sanctuary – I agree with your view entirely, the only view I've seen that states the right wing as responsible for our wokeness problem. It's just more division strategy from the neo liberal conservatives but it's not really working for them. I as a leftie don't have the slightest problem with it. Well said mate. I don't understand the moderation notes?
     • weka 3.2.1

       31 May 2021 at 9:16 am

       Did you read the post? There’s a note at the top saying debate the issues raised, don’t attack the author. It’s longstanding policy to not attack authors because getting posts up on TS is more important than commenters having wee anti author rants instead of engaging in debate. Sanctuary knows this. The blatant disrespect fir moderation is part of the ban.

       had Sanctuary’s comment been made without the author attack it would still be under the original post and they wouldn’t have been banned.
       • GreenBus 3.2.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 9:54 am

         I had to read the post before I could agree with it, yes? I note that a few other commenters have possibly attacked the author, although I wouldn't rate any of them (including Sanctuary) as attacks IMHO. This is not an attack on you and thanks for your input.
       • weka 3.2.1.2

         31 May 2021 at 10:53 am

         You said you didn’t understand the mod notes. I asked if you read the post because it clearly explains the boundaries at the top.

         no one has to agree with posts. They do have to abide by moderation. I’m guessing you didn’t see Sanctuary’s second comment. They were basically trolling at that point.

         I’ve got years of writing and moderation at TS as well as cross posting and encouraging new authors. I’ve been listening to writers say what’s hard about writing here. I have a pretty good idea of what is needed for robust debate and it isn’t long termers ignoring the rules of the site and doing whatever the hell they like.

         calling an author a shill is an attack, as an example, and it’s a specious form of debate and it derails. Author attacks are designed to undermine the person, that’s bulkshit tactics.

         One of the reasons I put the post up is because I want the left to take a long hard look at itself and go back to debating the issues. Apparently that’s too hard.

         That kind of commenting also opens the way for other people to make defamatory comments which puts the site owners at risk.
   • Ad 3.3

     31 May 2021 at 8:53 am

     What is Pasokification?
     • millsy 3.3.1

       31 May 2021 at 12:12 pm

       The decline of left and centre left parties in Europe, see:

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification
   • Adrian Thornton 3.4

     31 May 2021 at 10:42 am

     @Sanctuary
     "Edwards is not stupid, yet he continually – and deliberately in my opinion – continues to conflate "liberal" with the left"

     This is THE major problem of the Left today..ie separating with extreme prejudice who and what are the Left in most people’s minds from who and what are the Centrist Liberals.
     One of my sons is at Uni at the moment and even there they don’t make this critical distinction..except it seems when it suits the arguments of the status quo.

     Sorry to see you got kicked off…seems a bit harsh.
     • Peter chch 3.4.1

       31 May 2021 at 12:18 pm

       Adrian, I feel many in the left drive this wedge themselves.

       I always consider myself to be centralist economically, but definitely left socially. That position is based on my life experiences and observations. I have encountered many small business owners being the same.

       Many times on TS (and in everyday life) i encounter many in the left that cannot see this is not a contradiction (necessarily) and just hurl personal abuse if one isn't 100% 'left', instead of accepting that a centralist-leftist has significant overlaps with the majority of the left.

       I probably have not explained that well, but that's how I feel.
       • Louis 3.4.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 12:26 pm

         Still waiting for that link Peter ChCh.
         • Peter chch 3.4.1.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 12:34 pm

           What link? I explained very patiently and carefully. I cannot do more than that. if you lack the experience, knowledge or are just so plain pig headed to understand something which is very basic then I really cannot help you.

           This was two days ago. FFS. MOVE ON. THIS IS HARRESSMENT.
           MODERATORS PLEASE NOTE. ‘NZ Perverse economy. This poster Louis is WAY out of line.
           • Louis 3.4.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 12:38 pm

             It was yesterday. You were asked to provide a link to support your claim of "repeated lies"

             You said it Peter ChCh “Clark repeatedly lied to the media before finally coming clean and apologising for his lies”

             Put up a link
             • Peter chch …

               31 May 2021 at 12:43 pm

               You dogged and abused me on Saturday, I assume that is what you are still dogging and abusing me about today?

               You really need a life Louis
               • Louis …

                 31 May 2021 at 12:52 pm

                 Not Saturday, it was yesterday.

                 No need to be obtuse Peter Chch. You cant back up your claim that “Clark repeatedly lied to the media before finally coming clean and apologising for his lies”

                 You have done what you accused Clark of doing, you lied.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 31 May 2021 at 12:58 pm

                 You really need a life Louis

                 Feeling vulnerable over your ‘Clark hit job’? The pushback is fair, imho.

                 David Clark is now in charge? Are you joking.

                 The former Minister of Health who is on record knowingly lying about this very same DHB [Waikato?], who hid under his bed in Dunedin (when he wasn't out breaching lockdown rules) during the worst of the pandemic, who… too many screw ups to record.

                 He possibly could manage the parliamentary broom cupboard, but thats about his limit. Unbelievable.

                 "Unbelievable" indeed.
                 • Peter ChCh …

                   31 May 2021 at 1:12 pm

                   That is all factual (ok, 'under his bed' was his displayed mindset rather than fact).

                   I think you will find most Kiwis (left or right) have little but contempt for Clark.

                   And no, not feeling vulnerable in any shape or form whatsoever. Just tired of the type of endless crap I got from Louis on Saturday.
                   • Louis …

                     31 May 2021 at 1:21 pm

                     Already put up a link date stamped the 30th which was Sunday. You don't speak for most Kiwis PeterChch and will remind you that Clark won his seat convincingly last year so obviously its not as you described. Besides, you have been caught out telling porkies. Very hypocritical of you.
             • Peter ChCh …

               31 May 2021 at 12:53 pm

               This is the start of it. It progressed to the stage where he admitted he lied. It was well reported at the time but this sets the scene.

               https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/leaked-email-contradicts-health-ministers-claim-that-he-was-briefed-about-only-one-leaky-building-at-middlemore/QVFU6ELYYYX2HARGO3QW4SEE5M/
               • Peter ChCh …

                 31 May 2021 at 12:54 pm

                 MODERATORS

                 Please note these continual personal attack from this idiot Louis. I put up with this idiot on Saturday with personal abuse. Still at it. Calling someone a lier with no grounds, on top of the endless shit I endured from this cretin on Saturday is not unacceptable!
                 • Louis …

                   31 May 2021 at 1:02 pm

                   Yesterday 30th, I asked you for a link to back up your claims, even Incognito said to you "You should still provide a link about all those lies by Clark to the media, thanks"

                   Take note of the date
                   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-05-2021/#comment-1795498
               • Louis …

                 31 May 2021 at 12:58 pm

                 Doesn't back you up

                 "Clark says he has already received an apology from acting board chairman Rabin Rabindran for not mentioning the extent of the problem – which supports Clark's version of what he was and wasn't told on March 13"
                 • Peter ChCh …

                   31 May 2021 at 1:09 pm

                   No link for that claim Louis.

                   I can see you intend this to be a repeat of your Saturday crap. I will not reply to you anymore.

                   'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'. (Mark Twain)

                   [watching this thread, hoping I don’t need to become involved, which was forlorn hope 🙁

                   You made the assertion, you need to provide a link or withdraw and apologise.

                   I’ve put you in Pre-Moderation for now in anticipation of your response – Incognito]
                   • Louis …

                     31 May 2021 at 1:14 pm

                     The quote is from your link that you posted and it doesn't back up your false claims. Why you persist in lying and digging an even greater hole for yourself PeterChCh, is anyone's guess.
                   • Incognito …

                     31 May 2021 at 1:18 pm

                     See my Moderation note @ 1:09 pm.
       • Siobhan 3.4.1.2

         31 May 2021 at 5:36 pm

         …just a thought…from what you are saying….you are not Left socially…you are Liberal Socially…the Leftist position is based and revolves around Economic Theory.
   • Louis 3.5

     31 May 2021 at 12:36 pm

     +1 Sanctuary
     • GreenBus 3.5.1

       31 May 2021 at 3:23 pm

       +10 Louis
4. Incognito 4

   31 May 2021 at 8:31 am

   Mod note for you.
5. Incognito 5

   31 May 2021 at 9:26 am

   The report on Climate Change is due out today.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018797656/climate-change-commission-to-present-final-report
   • Pat 5.1

     31 May 2021 at 10:56 am

     We may have to wait (up to) 2 weeks to find out whats in it it seems
     • Incognito 5.1.1

       31 May 2021 at 11:04 am

       Oh no! That’s how they bury sensitive reports; in two weeks, we’ll have forgotten about it
       • weka 5.1.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 1:20 pm

         Labour have until the end of the year to accept the recommendations or present their own plan. Crunch time
         • Incognito 5.1.1.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 1:21 pm

           That’s a very long to wait for release of the full report to the public!
           • solkta 5.1.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 1:33 pm

             The report needs to be table in Parliament within two weeks so will then be publicly available.
             • Incognito …

               31 May 2021 at 1:40 pm

               Ta
               • weka …

                 31 May 2021 at 1:43 pm

                 End of year is what happens next.
     • Pat 5.1.2

       31 May 2021 at 1:53 pm

       "The independent advice was handed to the Minister today (Monday 31 May). The Commission will publish the advice on its website next Wednesday (9 June) once it has been tabled by the Minister."

       https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC2105/S00074/climate-change-commissions-final-advice-delivered-to-government.htm
6. greywarshark 6

   31 May 2021 at 12:48 pm

   When hearing about plans to build a tunnel from Auckland city to North Shore I think about our earthquake potential in NZ. A recent study on earthquake preparedness there contains this:

   Eruptions in the Auckland volcanic field happen in a new location each time – rather than from one of the 53 existing cones and lakes – and they could be anywhere on land or in the sea. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/443704/study-assesses-evacuation-window-for-aucklanders-in-volcanic-eruption

   And it doesn't mention the huge cost of such a tunnel if we take it on though we are in a fast-fading economy. When we run out of houses to sell, we will have to sell ourselves in new ways, just to survive. The cost of a tunnel may be amortised over many decades, but if our economy declines we will be left with an enforceable debt as the financial institutions don't go in for compassionate jubilees for debt.* No, nay, never, anyway probably not now in Our Brave New World.

   * The tendency for debts to grow faster than the population's ability to pay has been a basic constant throughout all recorded history. … The concept of a debt jubilee is not new. It dates back to biblical times and the Book of Leviticus where the Hebrews would every 50 years free slaves, prisoners and forgive debts.16/04/2012

   Debt Jubilee for New Zealand – The Great Reset | Scoop News

   https://www.scoop.co.nz › Top Scoops
7. greywarshark 7

   31 May 2021 at 1:08 pm

   Fascinating – kea may be more intelligent than we are – by applying their brain to achieve rational results that benefit them. We seem to believe in SEP – someone will rescue us from the horns of our dilemmas! Ouch! Old news piece from last year, still worth reading.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/410887/study-on-kea-notes-unprecedented-smart-behaviour Mar.4/20
   In a paper published today in Nature Communications, University of Auckland experts found the birds can judge statistical odds in a way only ever seen before in infants and great apes.
   In a range of tests at the Willowbank Wildlife Reserve in Christchurch, kea worked out that choosing a particular coloured token always led to a food reward, and even managed to learn which of their rangers was most likely to pick the token they wanted.

   Study co-author Alex Taylor, a psychologist who studies intelligence in animals and birds, said the behaviour they saw was unprecedented in birds.

   But this is hard to beat – the Japanese crow and the traffic nut cracker and light service.
   
8. Sacha 8

   31 May 2021 at 1:54 pm

   The mundane reality of one transperson's life.

   https://twitter.com/postingdad/status/1399085081130532868
   • weka 8.1

     31 May 2021 at 2:15 pm

     Nice one. We definitely need more normalising stories.

     yet, the politics.

     so how do we do this then? I’d be happy to talk about women’s sex based rights and not talk about trans issues, but it’s really hard to do. I had a fair crack with the census post I wrote. But when left wing men are now taking the position that women don’t get to define their own politics and thus their lives, how is that different than what he is talking about in that post?
     • Sacha 8.1.1

       31 May 2021 at 2:20 pm

       I've not seen a convincing explanation yet about why rights would be described as 'sex-based' rather than 'gender-based'.
       • weka 8.1.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 4:22 pm

         The debate isn’t sex based vs gender based rights. It’s existing sex based rights *and gender based rights vs removing sex based rights and replacing with only gender based rights.
         • Sacha 8.1.1.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 5:54 pm

           Do you have a link about 'sex based' rights that is not just talking about gender-based ones? ie: it is about 'females' rather than 'women'. Doesn't sound like any UN Conventions I know of.
           • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 6:36 pm

             Not really my area at the international level, but I've seen GCFs talking about CEDAW as being sex based. A quick google found this,

             Noting that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights affirms the principle of the inadmissibility of discrimination and proclaims that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights and that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth therein, without distinction of any kind, including distinction based on sex,

             https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/cedaw.aspx

             I'm more familiar with the debate in the UK, where law gives rights to people who transition, and retains rights for women based on sex to the exclusion of males (including trans women) where necessary. Trans lobbyists like Mermaids have been trying to get this removed.

             https://legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/03/13/sex-based-rights-a-remedy-to-sex-based-wrongs/

             Important to also understand that the word gender is often used to mean sex, especially historically.

             Another useful case to look at is in Canada where the Human Rights Tribunal ruled against a pre-op trans woman who was insisting that estheticians waxed their genitals.

             https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/transgender-woman-human-rights-waxing-1.5330807

             Almost none of the Canadian mainstream media would cover the case while it was ongoing, such has been the success of the 'no debate' lobby. It was covered by some conservative media eg The Post Millennial. This is part of why left wing GCFs get called right wing, but where these were the only outlets available (there are also right wing GC people). GCFs went to the tribunal hearings and live tweeted them, which is how GCFs knew what was going on when the rest of the left was clueless. What this has meant is that most of the left don't actually know what the issues are.
             • Sacha …

               31 May 2021 at 6:53 pm

               I've seen GCFs talking about CEDAW as being sex based

               Despite having 'Women' in its name.
               • weka …

                 31 May 2021 at 7:02 pm

                 yes. Most people believe that woman is a word used to mean biologically female.

                 Most women were happy to share that word with trans women up to the point that women's rights were put at risk.
                 • weka …

                   31 May 2021 at 7:03 pm

                   eg you know exactly what I mean by the use of 'women's' in that second sentence.
                 • Sacha …

                   31 May 2021 at 7:30 pm

                   That UK link you provided is relying on conflating 'male' with 'men' and 'female' with 'women' throughout.

                   Perhaps it is men that CGFs could usefully exclude without confusing things – otherwise I can easily see transmen being entitled to be in women's spaces (not that I think they would seek to be). Unless it is penises that are somehow the problem, which seems overblown?
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     31 May 2021 at 7:52 pm

                     "That UK link you provided is relying on conflating 'male' with 'men' and 'female' with 'women' throughout."

                     That seems to be what the Canadian case was mostly about. Though the court seemed to agree that not waxing a 'womans' penis wasn't discriminatory, (though the plantifs litigation may have been).
                   • weka …

                     31 May 2021 at 8:18 pm

                     That UK link you provided is relying on conflating 'male' with 'men' and 'female' with 'women' throughout.

                     I don't think so, it's not conflation, it's normal use of language. Most English speakers understand that men = male and vice versa. And it's clear in the context. I'd certainly expect Labour MPs to read and and be able to understand it.

                     Perhaps it is men that CGFs could usefully exclude without confusing things – otherwise I can easily see transmen being entitled to be in women's spaces (not that I think they would seek to be).

                     It's males that are generally the problem. Sometimes they get called male, sometimes they get called men. This is one very good reason to talk about women and trans women, and men and trans men, rather than conflating the two. It's not GCFs that are confusing things.

                     Unless it is penises that are somehow the problem, which seems overblown?

                     do you honestly believe that women who have been raped should have to share space with people of whatever gender identity who are male bodied with genitals intact? Share a bedroom in a refuge with a man identifying as a woman? Share a changing room?

                     There's the Staniland Question:

                     Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
                   • weka …

                     31 May 2021 at 8:19 pm

                     Interesting use of the word 'though' there Nic.
9. Incognito 9

   31 May 2021 at 1:55 pm

   Good ideas – even if they're controversial – deserve to be published, says Australian philosopher and bioethics professor Peter Singer. To this end, he's co-founded an online academic journal where people can publish under a pseudonym without fear of harassment or harm to their careers.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018797194/peter-singer-freedom-of-expression-and-cancel-culture
   • greywarshark 9.1

     31 May 2021 at 2:09 pm

     Re above link and Singer. Consequentialist….

     As a consequentialist and a utilitarian, Singer believes there are no such hard and fast rules.

     "A consequentialist believes that whether an act is right or wrong depends on its consequences. So it's not just a matter of saying 'Here's a moral rule, you must never break it no matter what'. For a consequentialist, this 'no matter what' doesn't apply because there may be some circumstances in which a rule you never normally should break you should break because there'd be very bad consequences if you adhere to the rule.

     The utilitarian part of it is 'what do you mean by good consequences?' and utilitarians say 'What I mean is something that reduces the amount of suffering in the world or increases the amount of happiness in the world'. We're basically talking about the well-being of people and non-human animals.

     "We should be able to say 'yes it may cause some harm to some people but it's important for us to have free debate to find out what are the right views and what are the best policies for dealing with these issues?'"

     Freedom of speech should not extend to protecting people's right to hate speech or any malicious incitement of violence, he says….

     7th August 2021 7-9.45pm The Trusts Arena, Henderson – Singer will be speaking. $70 up. Funds to alleviate global poverty.

     https://events.humanitix.co.nz/peter-singer-auckland

     More info: https://thinkinc.org.au/events/singer/?
   • Sacha 9.2

     31 May 2021 at 2:11 pm

     "We should be able to say 'yes it may cause some harm to some people but it's important for us to have free debate to find out what are the right views and what are the best policies for dealing with these issues?'"

     Funny how it's always the same social groups his 'debate' causes harm to. And how his need to hear his own voice reliably outweighs that.
     • Incognito 9.2.1

       31 May 2021 at 2:33 pm

       I don’t follow PS, or anybody, for that matter, but he does seem to appear in NZ media more than occasionally …

       What groups (plural) are singled out and ‘victimised’ by his debates and do you think this is deliberate and intentional? Seems a bit of a contradiction to the PR around his visit and journal!?
       • weka 9.2.1.1

         31 May 2021 at 4:09 pm

         Have a quick look at his public work on disability and infanticide
         • greywarshark 9.2.1.1.1

           31 May 2021 at 4:57 pm

           In his book Practical Ethics, Singer argues the case for selective infanticide. He deems it unfair that "At present parents can choose to keep or destroy their disabled offspring only if the disability happens to be detected during pregnancy.14/08/2012
           The case against Peter Singer – ABC News

           It would prevent this:

           A woman in her 20s living with quadriplegia and unable to talk suffered "extensive blister burns" from urine after a nurse neglected her care for 12 hours.
           https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/woman-in-20s-with-quadriplegia-suffers-blister-burns-due-to-lack-of-care/WAKF4IF74DO4GMP6BBBSETZEEY/

           And that money and 24/7 care for someone who has no hope of a life could go to other needy disabled people like these:

           https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/woman-paralysed-in-horse-fall-takes-fight-over-closure-auckland-rehab-centre-parliament
           It comes after hundreds of disabled people protested outside of Epsom’s Laura Fergusson Trust rehabilitation centre over the weekend.
           The centre provided rehabilitation for young people with disabilities to escape the confines of their homes in the company of others their age.
           But it closed last year, claiming it was short of funds, leaving those depending on its services devastated.

           However, Associate Minister of Health Ayesha Verrall told the House that financial support was offered to Laura Fergusson Trust.
           “No discussion was able to be entered into, because the trust informed the Ministry of Health that its decision was final,” Verrall said.

           It seems impossible for people to make the reasoned moral judgments that must be made if we are to have any moral judgments at all. It is likely that the PTB will harden, throw their hands up in the air and say the matter is beyond them, and those who are unhappy can get some funds and carry out their own nursing and caring. But then, that is already happening and it will become more burdensome as help is lessened and people are unwilling to face their situation.
           • McFlock 9.2.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2021 at 5:13 pm

             I'm always leery of comments about someone else having "no hope of a life" especially when based on perceived quality of life (rather than whether the body is in a condition consistent with the continuation of life). It tends to be a rather subjective assessment.

             Now, personally, most babies only a few months old are largely uninteresting and unimpressive, especially prems. But there are two main differences between a born baby and pregnancy: they don't rely on someone else's body to live (by and large), and the birth delineation is a convenient ledge on an otherwise slippery slope.

             The other less logical difference is "what sort of person makes a clinical decision to actively kill a baby that would otherwise live with only normal feeding and suchlike? I mean, scalpel? Drug injection? Seriously, wtf?"

             I get palliative care for a baby that just has too much going on to survive, but Singer's idea seems to be actively deciding for another person that their quality of life is so unbearable they should die. The bit that the euthenasia act doesn't allow ("be competent to make an informed decision about assisted dying.").
           • Rosemary McDonald 9.2.1.1.1.2

             31 May 2021 at 5:38 pm

             Ah. So. The Gospel according to Greywarshark seems to state that killing a disabled baby is the bestest way of preventing abuse and neglect of that baby by a caregiver in the future.

             AND, the $$$ that were being paid for that shitty care would have been better spent on those disabled folk with at least some hope of rehabilitation. Like the young woman tragically made a quadriplegic after a horse riding accident.

             Here endeth the moral lessons from Greywarshark for today.

             (Oh, a quadriplegic sitting in his chair to my right has a few choice words on this…but good manners prevent me passing them on.)
             • weka …

               31 May 2021 at 5:50 pm

               It's also laughable (bleakly) that 'freed up' funding would go to other disabled people.
           • Rosemary McDonald 9.2.1.1.1.3

             31 May 2021 at 6:01 pm

             Is that you Michael Laws?

             Spouting your eugenicist shit from behind a coward's pseudonym?
             • weka …

               31 May 2021 at 6:15 pm

               Snort, that's funny.

               Just a gentle reminder that pseudonyms are an important part of the culture here and for good reasons.
               • Rosemary McDonald …

                 31 May 2021 at 8:53 pm

                 Happy to take a gentle knuckle- rapping weka.

                 I have no issue at all with those who comment anonymously who are respectful and engage in good faith.

                 Although occasionally I do wonder exactly what reputation or position some other anonymous commentators are trying to protect.

                 Someone who claims the moral, reasoned high ground in advocating for the killing of disabled babies who have "no life" (and adds in an extra societal benefit in that the saved dollars can go towards supporting the clearly more worthy injured) must surely have spine enough to put their actual name and face to their views.
             • Morrissey …

               31 May 2021 at 10:29 pm

               Nine years ago this writer (i.e., moi) engaged in an epistolary exchange with Laws. His views were exactly as you describe: eugenicist….

               https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22022012/#comment-439366
   • Ad 9.3

     31 May 2021 at 5:03 pm

     Those straight utilitarians are just a pain in the ass. They have so much in common with the more scientifically bogus parts of New Public Management theory in terms of inputs and outputs being applied to social outcomes.
     • Incognito 9.3.1

       31 May 2021 at 5:51 pm

       Funny you should say that: I had another convo here today about ‘business cases’ in the context of bikes & babies.
10. Morrissey 10

    31 May 2021 at 3:56 pm

    QUESTION: What's the difference between Bryce Edwards and Brian Edwards?

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    ANSWER: Bryce Edwards has not banned this writer (i.e., moi) from his blog for life.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • Incognito 10.1

      31 May 2021 at 6:25 pm

      How to turn attention away to a non-entity that is infinitesimally irrelevant (i.e. toi)!! Why don’t you start your own YT channel or a blog?
11. gsays 11

    31 May 2021 at 4:19 pm

    RNZ just announced Nick Smith is retiring June 10th.
    • Incognito 11.1

      31 May 2021 at 4:37 pm

      Who’s next on the list, Max?
      • gsays 11.1.1

        31 May 2021 at 5:06 pm

        Umm, Max?

        Smith is going now that we have found out about something he regrets and apologised for. Integrity much?

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/443742/national-mp-nick-smith-to-retire-from-parliament
        • solkta 11.1.1.1

          31 May 2021 at 5:15 pm

          It was only a matter of time until he blew a gasket.
        • Incognito 11.1.1.2

          31 May 2021 at 5:20 pm

          You know Max, don’t you? He doesn’t register in the polls yet but his daddy still does. National can do with an aspiring DJ because JC makes awful scratchy noises, like an old broken LP on a wonky turntable.
          • gsays 11.1.1.2.1

            31 May 2021 at 5:47 pm

            Ahh, that was the second guess but I was stuck with Bradford.
            • Incognito 11.1.1.2.1.1

              31 May 2021 at 5:59 pm

              Oh no, that Max is older even than unlicensed Tim!
    • Ad 11.2

      31 May 2021 at 5:01 pm

      I don't think National has any other qualified engineers on their team.

      He did plenty of good stuff for Conservation.
      • Morrissey 11.2.1

        31 May 2021 at 5:18 pm

        He did plenty of good stuff for Conservation.

        ????!!?!?!?!?

        The people who care about water pollution don't think so.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/assets/news_crops/41536/eight_col_20170904_083133.jpg?1504474292

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/horse-manure-sculpture-of-environment-minister-nick-smith-moves-to-nelson/72CA7IK4SCNOU34ECGEZLRNY5Q/
        • greywarshark 11.2.1.1

          31 May 2021 at 7:36 pm

          Thanks for that Morrissey – very good likeness of Nick Smith from the front anyway.
    • Leighton 11.3

      31 May 2021 at 5:09 pm

      Harete Hipango, according to the Herald. Talk about turning good news into bad news.
      • Drowsy M. Kram 11.3.1

        31 May 2021 at 5:22 pm

        Ticks a lot of boxes as a potential future deputy to Nat leader Luxon.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harete_Hipango
        • Sacha 11.3.1.1

          31 May 2021 at 6:16 pm

          Not talented enough to challenge for the role herself, you mean?
        • joe90 11.3.1.2

          31 May 2021 at 9:13 pm

          a potential future deputy

          Not our Harete.
    • Jester 11.4

      31 May 2021 at 5:33 pm

      Well he certainly wont be missed. In fact will Parliament even notice when he's gone?
    • Patricia Bremner 11.5

      31 May 2021 at 5:44 pm

      Yes!! I clapped. Cinny would have been pleased.
      • gsays 11.5.1

        31 May 2021 at 6:02 pm

        I resisted the term Dr Custard…
        • Incognito 11.5.1.1

          31 May 2021 at 6:28 pm

          Dr Custard doesn’t cut the mustard.
12. greywarshark 12

    31 May 2021 at 4:41 pm

    Odd. A Radionz interview between Jesse Mulligan and Fed Farmers David Clark cannot be accessed as audio on Live Canterbury Flooding owing to 'copyright restrictions'.

    A Radionz piece can't be repeated on another RNZ piece for copyright restrictions to whom? Is Radionz fragmenting and selling off pieces of itself to the National Radio listeners disadvantage? Is it dividing into units with each one making sufficient money to meet a target?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/443699/live-canterbury-flooding-updates-bridges-collapse-hundreds-of-homes-evacuated
    • Pat 12.1

      31 May 2021 at 4:51 pm

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018797701/update-on-flooding-in-mid-cantebury
    • Morrissey 12.2

      31 May 2021 at 5:22 pm

      The National Party placemen on the RNZ board are intent on ruining the public broadcaster. They almost managed to abolish Concert FM last year.

      Unfortunately, as he showed during that debacle, the present minister does not appear to have any grasp on his job.
      • alwyn 12.2.1

        31 May 2021 at 6:16 pm

        "The National Party placemen on the RNZ board".

        That is a fascinating theory but what do you base it on? There are 8 members on the Board. Only 2 of them were appointed by the then National Government. They were in December 2015 and September 2017.

        The other 6 were all appointed after that date. In other words 6 of the 8, including the Chairman, were appointed by a Labour led Government. You are pretty desperate if you really think that 2 people can order the Board around aren't you?

        Now what do you base your claim on?
    • Sacha 12.3

      31 May 2021 at 5:51 pm

      Usually means the audio contains copyrighted music.
      • Incognito 12.3.1

        31 May 2021 at 5:52 pm

        Lose Yourself?
        • Sacha 12.3.1.1

          31 May 2021 at 5:56 pm

          Pretty often
          • Incognito 12.3.1.1.1

            31 May 2021 at 5:59 pm

            Don’t worry, be happy.
13. Tricledrown 13

    31 May 2021 at 6:08 pm

    Even happier Nick Smith has resigned citing employment issues being leaked to the Media tomorrow.
    • Incognito 13.1

      31 May 2021 at 6:13 pm

      Why on Earth does that make you happy? Why not smoke a joint?
    • alwyn 13.2

      31 May 2021 at 8:26 pm

      Leaked?

      I suppose that a leak was inevitable. With the matter, whatever it is, being passed on tt at least Hipkins and Mallard under the "No surprises" policy it would only be a matter of when, not if, it was leaked I would surmise.

      It is of course time that Smith retired. He has been in the House since 1990 and that is certainly long enough for anyone. It is just a pity that Mallard doesn't go out the door with him. He has been there since 1984 after all. He really ought to be cast out into the outer darkness shouldn't he? Surely there is some senior figure in the Labour Party who can take heed of Eliot's words and ask "Who will rid me of this turbulent prat"

      Then Trevor and Nick could be put out to pasture together. Let them spend their remaining time in the sunshine, even if they are really old bulls suitable only for the knacker's yard.
      • Louis 13.2.1

        1 June 2021 at 2:51 am

        alwyn, why are you trying to blame Hipkins and Mallard? How does it have anything to do with them? In 3 and half years in government Labour haven't leaked a thing about National, so how do you know it wasn't someone within the National party? after all, doesn't National have form in that regard?
        • alwyn 13.2.1.1

          1 June 2021 at 1:54 pm

          " In 3 and half years in government Labour haven't leaked a thing about National".

          Ah what blissful belief in the purity of your chosen party. You don't really believe that do you? I mean seriously think that the Labour MPs are truly that saintly. The only way I would think your statement could be true would be if you extend to the whole group of MPs Helen Clark's immortal claim. " "It is a matter of judgment for the Prime Minister how I use information from official reports; by definition I cannot leak.".
          • Drowsy M. Kram 13.2.1.1.1

            1 June 2021 at 2:28 pm

            Ah what blissful belief in the purity of your chosen party. You don't really believe that do you?

            Alwyn, can you move this beyond what you believe? I agree it seems unlikely that, since winning the 2017 general election, Labour hasn't leaked anything about National, but (in the absence of evidence), it could be true – no?

            Opposition National party people are sooo leaky; their 'leak prowess' is now the stuff of legend – yes Merv, I'm looking at you. What’s a ‘Labour leaker’ to do?

            John Key: If you can't quit leaking, quit National
            Former Prime Minister Sir John Key has a staunch message to any National MPs who continue to leak against the party: "If you can't quit leaking, quit the party".
            • alwyn 13.2.1.1.1.1

              1 June 2021 at 3:06 pm

              But it was, and probably still is, an article of faith for most of the contributors to this blog that John Key was an inveterate liar.

              Are you now suggesting that John Key doesn't lie, or at least sometimes doesn't lie? BLIP will not be pleased. How can we tell the difference?
              • Drowsy M. Kram …

                1 June 2021 at 3:36 pm

                Alwyn, not sure how you got:

                Are you now suggesting that John Key doesn't lie, or at least sometimes doesn't lie?

                from Sir (Honest) John Key's 2020 imperative "If you can't quit leaking, quit the [National] party".

                Reckon it would be difficult to lie about everything; even inveterate liars can sometimes tell the truth – maybe this was such an occasion.

                Btw, while you may consider inveterate' to be an appropriate descriptor of this particular 'Key habit', I would prefer 'shameless' – works for me thee.

                But I've gone off topic:

                Alwyn, can you move this beyond what you believe? I agree it seems unlikely that, since winning the 2017 general election, Labour hasn't leaked anything about National, but (in the absence of evidence), it could be true – no?

                There must be at least one documented example – how difficult can it be?
          • Louis 13.2.1.1.2

            1 June 2021 at 7:35 pm

            Its not about Helen Clark though. Its been Jacinda's policy since coming into government that whatever involves the National party it's their business and despite media efforts to draw commentary from the PM Et al in her government they dont leak and neither do they put the boot in. Just because National are inclined to do it doesn't mean every other party does. The Greens don't do it either.
          • Incognito 13.2.1.1.3

            1 June 2021 at 10:50 pm

            As usual, you’re all over the place, diverting, dodging, denying, but never answering the question with a straight answer. You, Sir, are not debating here, you are trolling again.

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