Open mike 31/07/2023

43 comments on “Open mike 31/07/2023 ”

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1. Jack 1

   30 July 2023 at 3:05 pm

   Nice obituary.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • weka 1.1

     31 July 2023 at 9:50 am

     Congratulations, you are now on my moderation radar.

     1. stop trolling.
     2. You can obviously write sentences and paragraphs, but you are starting to look like an astroturfer here to just slag off Labour (and the Greens). We expect people to bring coherent political arguments, so up your game.
     3. Read this post and the site Policy so you know how moderation works here
     4. understand that we are banning people until after the election if they continue to cause problems
     5. if you don’t understand anything I am saying, just ask
     6. please reply to this comment so I know you have read it. If you don’t, you will be put in premod, and if you continue to ignore moderation you will get banned
     • Jack 1.1.1

       31 July 2023 at 1:51 pm

       Read.

       Anyone know when the next polls are out?

       Roy Morgan usually at the start of the month, so maybe late this week? I haven’t seen a TV3 one for a while. With everything that is going on politically, will be interesting to see if any clear trends are emerging.
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         31 July 2023 at 1:58 pm

         https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election
2. SPC 2

   31 July 2023 at 7:00 am

   It began in 2018

   business case for the Whangārei to Auckland corridor in 2018.

   A National policy in 2020.

   2020 election policy to build a four-lane highway from Whangārei to Auckland, including a tolled tunnel under the Brynderwyns in the following decade.

   National and NZF are now proposing an alternative to the Brynderwyn hills route north, as it is flood prone.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/two-possible-bypass-routes-investigated-for-sh1-at-brynderwyn-hills-closed-for-weeks-after-summer-floods/Q2VAJUBJDRGN3C2VJGA3UULVOE/
   • Peter 2.1

     31 July 2023 at 7:47 am

     I get it, costs and funding systems and all that. And Northerners won’t mind a toll tunnel at Brynderwyn they’ll be so happy to have it.Like the Puhoi tunnel.

     But in Auckland, the Waterview tunnel? There’s no way Aucklanders would wear a toll.

     And just like that you get to see why some Northlanders think they’re still being treated like dumb shits. The best part of 100 years of being playthings in games of politics. Simeon Brown or whoever the latest little message boy is can join the legion of Nation Party scumbags whose only real interest in Northland is getting a tick on a voting form.
     • Sanctuary 2.1.1

       31 July 2023 at 7:59 am

       I've been up north (Auckland to Mangonui) thrice in the last month. There is absolutely no need for any additional massive road building now the holiday highway has been opened. Incremental improvements are needed in Dome valley, and the Brynderwyns are a mess so it may be worth considering bypassing them to the east should climate events make that road no longer feasible.

       If this proposal was for a high speed passenger (and freight) electrified rail corridor linking Whangarei-Auckland-Hamilton-Tauranga combined with a push to create a high productivity corridor alongside the rail then I'd be all in favour of it.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1.1

         31 July 2023 at 8:23 am

         If this proposal was for a high speed passenger (and freight) electrified rail corridor linking Whangarei-Auckland-Hamilton-Tauranga combined with a push to create a high productivity corridor alongside the rail then I'd be all in favour of it.

         This !
       • SPC 2.1.1.2

         31 July 2023 at 8:24 am

         NZ First wants to build a railway to Marsden Point from the Northern Main Trunk Line.

         And also a dry-dock in Northport and move Ports of Auckland, while also moving the RNZ Navy to Northport from Devonport.
       • Adrian 2.1.1.3

         31 July 2023 at 10:35 am

         High speed rail to Northland makes very little sense as it is only a short distance and once there one would need to rent a car to get to the myriad townships and beaches that rail or daily public transport will never ever get to. The other consideration is that within the next decade almost all transport will be electric and any presumed fossil fuel saving benefits will no longer apply. France has a very good TGV and other rail systems but you see very few buses.
         • Bruce 2.1.1.3.1

           31 July 2023 at 1:44 pm

           I've always thought drive on , drive off rail flat cars would be an idea that could save congestion, lives and emissions on highways and provide a relaxing, comfortable journey without the need for hire cars.
           • Jilly Bee 2.1.1.3.1.1

             31 July 2023 at 3:27 pm

             There are those types of wagons for cars on the Ghan and Indian Pacific trains, great for long distance travel without the hassle of driving. No reason why they shouldn't work over this side of the ditch.
         • Sabine 2.1.1.3.2

           31 July 2023 at 7:54 pm

           You should go to cities then, the whole of the Cote d'azur Alpes Maritimes is connected with buses where you have no trains – mountainous areas for example. Cheap, effective, several times a day and evenings buses that go long distance.

           Lived in France for over a decade, never owned a car, always lived rural.

           And fwiw, look up the feat of building a tram in Nice, something that was done in short time, and the ticket was initially at a 1 euro and is now something 1.5 euros. By a conservative deputee no less. Not a single greeny came help.

           NZ does not have public transport because neither the left nor the right actually wants to invest in that. The one wants to build roads, the other want to complain about building road. And here we are, no tram anywhere in Auckland – just been there today, nary a bus to see, the trains seem all being worked on, and well it was quite depressing actually.

           And hiring cars costs money, it is actually cheaper to have a non warrented non rego'ed car that one brings out when they need to go to town and cop the fine, specially when poor. If you even have a rental company anywhere near you to get too to pick up your car. Mind, a poor person could always walk there after all they have time to waste, right?

           But yeah, just another region of NZ that don't need roads, nor trains, just rent a car, the same car that the left believes the poor won't be driving soon and that will be banned cause fossil fuels.

           As for electric cars not being 'fossil fuel' dependent, what do you think electricity is? Where does that magic juice comes from? How do you recycle the batteries? What about the fossilfuel spend to create the car and the batteries and the shipping to our far flung corners? Oh yeah, thats cool and good pollution cause some rich guy can afford a car that makes him feel so green.

           Fuck that is just so tedious.
           • miravox 2.1.1.3.2.1

             31 July 2023 at 8:37 pm

             Fuck that is just so tedious.

             Totally agree. The Nice tram went in so fast!

             And after living in Vienna (Euro365/year for bus/train/tram within the city limits) & and travelling around Europe car-free for eight years and bugger-all money, and trying to do the same in Wellington (now we're home) – NZ is ruined, it's a transport nightmare. Absolutely pathetic, it's like people cannot see an alternative. We've seen NZers on Danube cruises and city-to-city trains who rave about the experience and then 'oh no, we can't do that in NZ, it's not our way.'

             City-to-city by train $60 there and hundreds of dollars here, Wellington to Auckland by rail is twice the price of flying.

             But of course, I'm elitest.

             (otoh public transport is only for poor people) I give up.
         • Michael P 2.1.1.3.3

           1 August 2023 at 5:11 pm

           "…within the next decade almost all transport will be electric…"

           yeah….nah.
     • SPC 2.1.2

       31 July 2023 at 8:05 am

       This time it's a 4 lane motorway (second tunnel under Mount Victoria – yeah toll free) to the airport and eastern suburbs (instead of a light rail system within Wellington and via a tunnel to the east, something users would pay for).
   • Sanctuary 2.2

     31 July 2023 at 8:05 am

     National's obsession with roads frankly goes beyond just a blinkered and antedeluvian world view and veers hard towards outright cronyism and culture war nihilism.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.2.1

       31 July 2023 at 8:22 am

       Absolutely summed. Its a core belief obsession.
     • SPC 2.2.2

       31 July 2023 at 8:29 am

       They are still largely unchallenged in MSM over allowing heavier trucks on the roads – causing cracking and then the later potholes with the rain (and they did this while reducing funding for road maintenance).

       And the poseurs then this year announce a pothole fund policy to deal with the mess they caused, as if they have the answers.
   • Phillip ure 2.3

     31 July 2023 at 10:33 am

     How many of those new bridges national promised to build in northland…

     .. actually got built..?

     This motorway chimera might snag the biggest pile of electioneering bullshit award…

     ..(from/for the party (formerly) known as the tax cuts party..)
3. Dennis Frank 3

   31 July 2023 at 7:04 am

   CNN reports on bilingual road signage, featuring this country along with Wales & Hawaii: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/29/asia/new-zealand-bilingual-road-signs-debate-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

   In 1847 (20 years before New Zealand’s Native Schools Act) a British government report into Welsh linked the language to stupidity, sexual promiscuity and unruly behavior, prompting a drive to remove the language from local schools.

   So the historical trend into monoculture was a result of imperialism.

   This led to the notorious punishment known as the Welsh Nots. These were planks of wood with the initials W.N. on them that would be hung around the necks of students caught speaking the language in school.

   James Griffiths, author of Speak Not: Empire, Identity and the Politics of Language and a former CNN journalist, said Wales was a prime example of how sound policies could revive a native language, but he noted that, as in New Zealand, there had been resistance from some quarters.

   “I think for a lot of people, if they speak the language of the majority, they don’t appreciate the type of recognition and representation of having it on road signs,” he said. Across the Irish Sea, bilingual signs bearing both Irish Gaelic and English have existed in the Republic of Ireland dating back to the start of the 20th century.

   Whereas the trend towards inclusion is good politics, there's a problem with impact on driver cognition that has design implications:

   Research by the University of Leeds suggests road signs consisting of four lines, or more, are likely to slow drivers’ response time significantly.

   You may need to pull over & stop to read the sign for this place…

   Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu, a hill near Hawke’s Bay which prides itself as the world’s longest place name.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   31 July 2023 at 7:24 am

   Alternatives to the msm are helpful. This one seems to have emerged from an aussie university: https://360info.org/about-us/

   360 operates as a “wire agency” supplying contextual and explanatory news features ready-for-publication on other publisher’s outlets at no cost under Creative Commons.

   It provides this review of China's BRI: The future of the Belt and Road Initiative is uncertain, but regional cooperation could secure its future.

   China now navigates an inward-looking economic policy, and the outcomes of this reassessment will shape not only Belt and Road infrastructure projects but the economic and geopolitical landscape in the Pacific and beyond.

   https://360info.org/ten-years-on-chinas-grand-scheme-faces-hurdles/
   • SPC 4.1

     31 July 2023 at 7:49 am

     China would need to proffer a Taiwan within China deal, reassure ASEAN as to the SCS atolls being claimed as islands, and assist with a Korean Peninsular peace (guarantee South Korean security and thus allowing US forces to leave) to gain Japanese and Korean confidence.

     Then there is this. Italy wondering about how to withdraw.

     https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66354362
   • Phillip ure 4.2

     31 July 2023 at 10:39 am

     That 360 is a useful link/resource..
5. SPC 5

   31 July 2023 at 7:28 am

   Labour is proposing a change to its rent to buy scheme.

   The Government has tweaked its rent-to-buy type schemes for first home buyers, opening it up for existing homes and not just new builds.

   About time.

   Housing Minister Megan Woods announced on Sunday the progressive home ownership scheme – where the Government helps first home buyers through rent-to-buy, leasehold, and shared equity arrangements – would be opened up to existing homes for buyers, with an increased income cap of $150,000.

   Rising wages since 2020.

   The $400 million progressive home ownership scheme was started in 2020 with the aim of helping low-to-median income households, particularly Māori and Pacific whānau with children, who might lack a sufficient deposit or financial support for a deposit, into their first home.

   The Government is also “increasing the flexibility” and speed of the application process, and extending the timeframe that rent-to-buy of shared equity schemes have to be paid off by from 15 to 20 years.

   This is hardly surprising given the increasing cost of new builds since 2020.

   Now, if only they would do an adjustment to Kiwibuild and allow those owning flats and apartments to buy (those seeking better quality or a small family home) or those empty nesters downsizing (to encourage this path to quality new builds). This would help provide impetus to the wider construction market.
6. dv 6

   31 July 2023 at 8:05 am

   The new hiway

   Simple calc cost is 17 b not 6b

   Distance 380

   Based on the Tranmission gulley
   27k, 1.2 b cost
7. PsyclingLeft.Always 7

   31 July 2023 at 8:38 am

   Study suggests New Zealand is the most car-dependent country in the world

   The study suggests this is because transport funding is more skewed towards roading projects rather than a focus on buses or trains.

   https://www.autocar.co.nz/study-suggests-new-zealand-is-the-most-car-dependent-country-in-the-world/

   How or when will this car dependency end? Seemingly never. Well, not while morons are still planning to build 4 lane "highways".

   We must get Rail back on track !

   As late as 2002, services operated between Auckland and Hamilton, Tauranga and Rotorua, Wellington and Napier, as well as Christchurch and Invercargill.

   20 years later just a handful remain and New Zealand is one of the most car-dependent countries in the world.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/06/road-to-rail-can-nz-get-back-on-track-with-rail/

   Regional rail: What is, what was and what could be

   https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/10-05-2023/regional-rail-what-is-what-was-and-what-could-be
   • Sanctuary 7.1

     31 July 2023 at 8:57 am

     I don't know about trying to restore regional rail. it's been run down for almost fifty years now. My view is we should start with a clean sheet of paper, build a standard gauge high speed electric rail network in the above mentioned Whangarei to Tauranga route, and then expand that South over 20-40 years. Then, a spur to Rotorua. Then to Taupo and from Wellington to Palmerston North. Then complete the link between Palmerston and Taupo. Then maybe an East Coast link, Palmerston North-Napier-Gisborne-Whakatane-Rotorua.

     In the South Island, the maintrunk from a new ferry port at Clifford Bay to Christchurch. Forget about the rest of the old narrow gauge network.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1

       31 July 2023 at 9:20 am

       No argument with Rail North. But meanwhile, heavy truck/trailers are rooting South Island roads.

       Clifford Bay to ChCh could be a start…but we who are actually in the South need much more Rail service and use to put a stop to that.

       Heres an Opinion piece from Duncan Connors.

       While stating the case strongly for Dunedin..and our South Island IMO he has many valid points.

       https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/all-aboard-passenger-rail-south

       Duncan Connors, no mere enthusiast…he is also Senior Lecturer at University of Otago Business School
       • Sanctuary 7.1.1.1

         31 July 2023 at 10:08 am

         The small populations and lack of economic dynamism makes modern rail hard to justify south of Hamilton except on the hope of induced demand and I can't imagine you'd ever come up with a good case to spend the money required ofor upgrade rail in Otago/Southland.

         Far better accept the dynamic “virtuous circle” of growth in NZ will occur north of Taupo, and aim to create a zone with good, high-skilled jobs, a large, skilled population, and good communications that will attract more private investment and new, high-skilled jobs. Leave Otago and Southland to the penguins, fur seals and Royal Albatrosses.
         • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1.1.1

           31 July 2023 at 10:11 am

           Did you even read Duncans article? Ok. Leave it at that…
8. Mike the Lefty 8

   31 July 2023 at 8:51 am

   National's default policy position: build more roads.

   That's all you get from National.

   Shameless populist vote buying, so their mates can drive their Ford Rangers at 130 km/hr between Whangarei and Auckland along ludicrously expensive King's highways.

   Who will pay for that?

   The poor, the homeless, the hungry and the sick.

   National's pandering to the Kiwi car culture for votes at the expense of the general welfare of the country is the product of calculated minds who don't give a f.. about anything but the buzz of power.

   They should be ashamed of themselves, but being National they will think they are the best thing since sliced bread.
9. Jack 9

   31 July 2023 at 9:52 am

   Yet another week starts with National releasing policy and Labour again talking about themselves – today their party list.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • observer 9.1

     31 July 2023 at 2:33 pm

     About a month ago Jack was on here claiming that National had released their tax policy. When I pointed out that was incorrect, and (politely) asked for a link to this policy, Jack resorted to abuse.

     That doesn't bother me, but deliberate misinformation does. Where is National's tax policy, Jack?
10. Dennis Frank 10

    31 July 2023 at 10:48 am

    Public health controversy continues to swirl around my local dioxin site: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/494823/ministry-of-health-cuts-access-to-flawed-data-in-paritutu-serum-dioxin-study

    You'll see a nice aerial view of the Ivon Watkins-Dow plant in 2001. Demolition was completed earlier this year and all those buildings within that large green-belt quadrangle are now gone. Just below the bottom of the picture is the Tasman coastline. I live in that fringe suburb above the top right corner, less than 300m from the boundary, but I'm not paranoid about any contamination.

    After months wondering why developers haven't moved in to start subdivision of what could become a highly-prized market opportunity, I've gleaned that the NPDC isn't satisfied with the owner's decontamination process, so the thing has stalled.

    Meanwhile this report suggests things are even murkier for locals closely affected.

    Jimmy Stoppard grew up on Marama Crescent in Paritūtū, and later worked at the IDW agrichemicals plant. His mother Susan Stoppard Raynor recorded the highest level of dioxin exposure in the 2005 study. But she was incorrectly grouped as a long-term resident, despite living in Paritūtū for just seven years. Stoppard feared the study's results had been skewed by wrong information about his mother and others who lived in the area in the 1960s.

    Can't do basic science if you fudge the data. Gross negligence? Anyone ought to be able to grasp that the period of exposure is proportional to the effects, right? Should public health officials be deemed to thick to grasp that principle? No. How come they don't just get it right? Pandemic, obviously. The universal feeble excuse.
11. Craig H 11

    31 July 2023 at 11:13 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300939162/live-the-day-in-politics-monday-july-31

    Labour List is currently being released but a standalone link not available yet. To quote the top 60 from that link:

    1. Chris Hipkins
    2. Kelvin Davis
    3. Carmel Sepuloni
    4. Grant Robertson
    5. Megan Woods
    6. Jan Tinetti
    7. Ayesha Verrall
    8. Willie Jackson
    9. Willow-Jean Prime
    10. Damien O'Connor
    11. Adrian Rurawhe
    12. Andrew Little
    13. David Parker
    14. Peeni Henare
    15. Priyanca Radhakrishnan
    16. Kieran McAnulty
    17. Ginny Andersen
    18. Barbara Edmonds
    19. Jo Luxton
    20. Duncan Webb
    21. Rino Tirikatene
    22. Deborah Russell
    23. Rachel Brooking
    24. Jenny Salesa
    25. Tangi Utikere
    26. Camilla Belich
    27. Tracey McLellan
    28. Shanan Halbert
    29. Glen Bennett
    30. Vanushi Walters
    31. Georgie Dansey
    32. Dan Rosewarne
    33. Naisi Chen
    34. Anahila Kanongata'a
    35. Angela Roberts
    36. Tāmati Coffey
    37. Ibrahim Omer
    38. Neru Leavasa
    39. Toni Boynton
    40. Anna Lorck
    41. George Hampton
    42. Rachel Boyack
    43. Angie Warren-Clark
    44. Liz Craig
    45. Michael Wood
    46. Terisa Ngobi
    47. Helen White
    48. Arena Williams
    49. Phil Twyford
    50. Steph Lewis
    51. Sarah Pallett
    52. Ingrid Leary
    53. Lemauga Lydia Sosene
    54. Parewhati Taikato
    55. Estefania Muller-Pallarès
    56. Fleur Fitzsimons
    57. Reuben Davidson
    58. Nick Ruane
    59. Fesaitu Solomone
    60. Mark Hutchinson
    • Belladonna 11.1

      31 July 2023 at 11:36 am

      Here's a link

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/watch-live-labour-to-reveal-party-list-ahead-of-general-election/S4L45UXQFNDDFOI3JBFEEPTVP4/
12. newsense 12

    31 July 2023 at 11:25 am

    What have the twenty extra MPs been doing for 3 years? Has there been any benefit to having this huge caucus?
    • Mac1 12.1

      31 July 2023 at 12:33 pm

      I would expect that they were representing constituents, voting in Parliament, sitting on Parliamentary committees, dealing with constituent problems and local issues.

      If they were National MPs they'd be finding potholes, mingling with anti-mandate protesters, putting up protest hoardings, putting out press releases and newsletters full of words like "shambles", "crisis" and "woke".
    • observer 12.2

      31 July 2023 at 2:41 pm

      People often complain there are too many MPs, but under our system there is no other talent pool for Cabinet. We can't create peers (UK) or appoint Senators (Australia) or other officials (USA). New Zealand is unusual in that regard.

      The first MMP government (National – NZ First) was an object lesson in what can go wrong if jobs outnumber available talent.
      • newsense 12.2.1

        31 July 2023 at 4:31 pm

        That’s it?

        Trainer wheels cabinet ministers who we haven’t seen, have no profile and who are going to lose their seats anyway?

        Could at least have been some guest posts for the Standard expressing their political philosophy or political goals if those are allowed in the Labour Party these days…

        @Mac yep all NaCT backbench stuff. What’s the Labour alternative? It seems like a lot of wasted opportunity at the moment.
13. Drowsy M. Kram 13

    31 July 2023 at 12:41 pm

    According to RNZ's Midday Sports News [@ 0:59 min], "New Zealand crushed Singapore"!

    Crushed! Humiliated! Destroyed! – it's all good (entertainment), if a little juvenile.
14. Mac1 14

    1 August 2023 at 5:31 pm

    The Labour alternative is to understand that potholes not on SH1 are the responsibility of the local authority, not the government; that anti-mandate protesters who deny the power of the police, the courts and reason are dangerously deluded; that protest hoardings that call for the banning of something that does not exist are in similar intellectual territory; that words used wrongly and overused lose their meaning; and finally that 'woke' is a term of praise.

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