Oram on Nats’ poor record and why we should vote for change

Written By: - Date published: 10:36 am, September 17th, 2017 - 89 comments
Categories: economy, labour, national - Tags: , , , , ,

Rod Oram at Newsroom:

Rod Oram: ‘Why new leaders and policies are needed’
…
National’s track record:

It came to power in November 2008 at the height of the Global Financial Crisis. It was singularly unprepared for the job. It had spent the previous nine years in opposition micro-managing issues and shuffling leaders seeking to regain power. It had failed to develop its policies to respond to the fast-changing world.

A year later, its economic strategy still consisted of only a dozen or so A3 sheets of paper, reported Colin James, the veteran political journalist.

As it promised in the election, National established a tax working party, which later proposed many remedies to the distortions in our tax system. But the government ignored them. Instead it cut the top rate of tax; and it raised GST, which it promised in the election it wouldn’t do.
…
National’s third term has benefited from big booms in migration, tourism, housing, and construction. Again, the government has been highly opportunistic, but it has lagged badly on strategic policies and investment to cope. Infrastructure, housing, construction capacity, the environment and climate are just five of the crucial areas.

It has managed government finances well. But it has been weak on economic strategy. For example, it offers no views on how rapidly the global economy is changing; or on how to reorient technology, education, skills and other policies New Zealanders need to seize those abundant opportunities.
…
Under nine years of National’s governance GDP per capita has grown by barely 1% a year in real terms, which is not much ahead of the OECD average. Wealth inequality has risen, environmental sustainability has fallen and productivity growth, the factor determining our standard of living and economic resilience, remains among the lowest in the OECD.

On current trends and policies, we will achieve none of National’s 2025 goals: catching up with Australia’s GDP per capita; lifting exports from 30% of GDP to 40%; and doubling the value of exports.

The near future:

National says there’s no need to change policies. It says current ones and the strong economy will deliver much more, enabling it in a fourth term to make big inroads on the big economic and social challenges outstanding.

But that’s not the future Treasury or the Reserve Bank forecast last month. They said GDP growth will peak next calendar year then decline. The Reserve Bank is the more cautious of the two, forecasting growth of 2.1% in the year to September 2020 – just before the next election.

Treasury forecasts multifactor productivity — the key determinant of improvements in our wages and wealth — will actually decline in the next two years, then grow weakly in the following two years. We will remain near the bottom of the OECD on this vital measure of economic health and competitiveness. As a consequence, wage growth will barely outpace inflation.

Treasury also forecasts the growth of export volumes will ease in the next two years to less than 2% a year, which is below their long-term average; and our current account deficit – the key measure of our trade and investment relationships with the rest of the world — will worsen.
…
The choice:

National’s top three priorities for business are: “train kids”; continue to grow R&D; and ensuring New Zealand was open to the world, Steven Joyce, its finance spokesman, told business leaders at the Mood of the Boardroom breakfast on Tuesday.

Labour’s are: “A relentless focus on skills and retraining”; lifting R&D; and to give small businesses more access to capital, Grant Robertson, its finance spokesman, told the audience.

Superficially, there’s little difference between the two parties. But in those brief lists, Robertson demonstrated greater understanding of, and ambition for, New Zealand businesses than Joyce.
…
National, in contrast, is far too busy defending its record of the past nine years to admit where it has failed, let alone to think about how it might do better.

Joyce, for example, denies there is a housing crisis. He says home construction will boom for the next six years. But his own government’s recent construction pipeline report shows it will peak next year then fall back, for example, in Auckland to the previous peak in 2005. The government had done nothing to grow the capacity of the construction sector, nor is it offering any policies to do so.

English says productivity is growing nicely. But his own government’s data and analysis show he is absolutely wrong. He also says wages have grown twice as fast as inflation. But that assertion surprises many voters.

More of the same won’t deliver for New Zealand. Hopefully, new leaders and policies will. ….

These are just a few extracts from a long, balanced, and interesting piece. Go read the whole thing on Newsroom…

89 comments on “Oram on Nats’ poor record and why we should vote for change ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Carolyn_nth 1
    17 September 2017 at 10:42 am

    So, basically, the Nats are conservatives and managerialists, managing in the interests of a few in a fairly ad hoc way, without any real kind of plan.

    It’s interesting that Oram, a long time analyst of business-related politics, rates Robertson better than Joyce in his understanding of NZ business and their hopes for the future.

    • Pat 1.1
      17 September 2017 at 10:55 am

      Interesting though not surprising….Joyce may be a devious (and arguably successful) electioneer but as his academic record shows his grasp of economics is woeful

      • cleangreen 1.1.1
        17 September 2017 at 11:19 am

        1000% PAT
        ‘Joyce may be a devious ‘

        Yes he is the master devious person of this century, as he has bullsitted his entire life, even when he took over alll former ZB am stations he told lies and in Government.

        He bulllshited English to give his new owner $25 million to keep operating the stations he had sold going and stayed o the board of directors?????

      • alwyn 1.1.2
        17 September 2017 at 12:48 pm

        “academic record shows his grasp of economics”.
        Please enlighten us. What sort of academic record does Grant Robertson have in the economics discipline? As far as I can see the answer is none.

        • Pat 1.1.2.1
          17 September 2017 at 12:54 pm

          he certainly doesn’t have a failed first year economics paper in his CV

        • Ad 1.1.2.2
          17 September 2017 at 1:00 pm

          Shot me in the ass but what about Shaw for Assoc Finance?

          • Pat 1.1.2.2.1
            17 September 2017 at 1:04 pm

            which moniker would you like the reply under?

            • Ad 1.1.2.2.1.1
              17 September 2017 at 1:30 pm

              Meaning what?

              • Pat …
                17 September 2017 at 1:32 pm

                read the comments under the thread 1.1.2 and it is evident

                • Ad …
                  17 September 2017 at 1:38 pm

                  What is your point?
                  Be clear.

                  • Pat …
                    17 September 2017 at 1:41 pm

                    the thread of comments read to me as being written by the same commenter but with different handles….you are welcome disabuse me of that notion , and while you are doing so you may wish to clarify who the question was for.

                    • Ad …
                      17 September 2017 at 1:45 pm

                      They are different people.

                      The original question, as denoted in the numeral annotation, was to Alwyn.

                    • lprent …
                      17 September 2017 at 2:11 pm

                      I will have a look when I get near a larger screen. It is a behaviour that I tend to discourage – strongly. And I can usually tell.

                    • greywarshark …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:07 pm

                      It would be helpful in a diffuse thread to actually put the pseudonym of the person being replied to. Then anyone including the individuals involved can follow the discussion.
                      I have mentioned this before, and often do it myself. It helps the discussion to evolve, and without it there is often confusion. It’s as easy as using the indicator in your car, even just putting the initials of a name would be good.

                    • Pat …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:20 pm

                      It would Greywarshark, but I’m still struggling to understand how Ad’s arse was shot when he wasn’t previously involved in the conversation?……self inflicted wound perhaps?

                    • Ad …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:32 pm

                      Pat, you need to follow the numeration because it enables you to see precisely who us being asked what. That was the case this time. It has been increased in the last year precisely to better control threads.

                      I was replying to Alwyn because he is on record as highly credentialled in the economic sphere and would be well versed with James Shaw’s CV. No idea whether you have any qualifications in that field.

                      Otherwise, I have but one handle, which is Ad. The site editors wanted me to lengthen it for actual posts, so I went to Advantage. No mystery.

                    • Pat …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:37 pm

                      the numeration clearly shows no possibility of previous involvement in the conversation Ad……or Advantage or whatever…..would get the wound attended to.

                    • Ad …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:46 pm

                      You do not own this discourse.
                      You own nothing on this site other than your capacity to express clearly.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:48 pm

                      And Ad why the different avatars? You tried to explain it as using different devices but no-one else’s seems to change with different devices.

                      Are you sure you are not two different people?

                    • Pat …
                      17 September 2017 at 3:54 pm

                      think you fucked up Ad/Alwyn and forgot which avatar you were posting under…is that clear enough for you?

                    • alwyn …
                      17 September 2017 at 4:07 pm

                      To Pat @ 3.54pm.
                      I have only just come back to this site and seen this storm that my simple comment seems to have inspired.

                      For your information, and anyone else getting as het up as you are.
                      I am not the person posting under the name of Ad.
                      I have no idea who Ad is.

                      I have never posted under any other name than Alwyn (or alwyn if you really want to get picky).
                      There, is that sufficient for you?

                    • swordfish …
                      17 September 2017 at 5:16 pm

                      Pat

                      think you fucked up Ad/Alwyn and forgot which avatar you were posting under…is that clear enough for you?

                      Barking up the wrong tree, Pat – confusion possibly caused by

                      (1) You wrongly assuming Ad was replying to you (he was replying to Alwyn)

                      (2) Ad writing “Shot me in the ass …” when he presumably meant “Shoot me in the ass …”

                      (ie “Shot me in the ass …”
                      = criticise me for what I’m about to say if you must but … (“what about Shaw for Assoc Finance?”)

                      rather than

                      “Shoot me in the ass …”
                      = Touché ! You got me on that one Pat)

                    • swordfish …
                      17 September 2017 at 5:28 pm

                      Dang ! Shoot & Shot illustrative meanings around wrong way in my comment (above)

                      Should read

                      ie “Shoot me in the ass …”
                      = criticise me for what I’m about to say if you must but … (“what about Shaw for Assoc Finance?”)

                      rather than

                      “Shot me in the ass …”
                      = Touché ! You got me on that one Pat)

                    • Pat …
                      17 September 2017 at 5:46 pm

                      plausible Swordfish….I withdraw the accusation and apologise to both parties….must be getting paranoid in my old age.

                    • alwyn …
                      18 September 2017 at 12:27 am

                      To Pat @ 5.46pm
                      Thank you.

        • Tracey 1.1.2.3
          17 September 2017 at 3:43 pm

          Interesting analysis though by Oram. Especially the promise to form a tax working group post election…

  2. ianmac 2
    17 September 2017 at 11:37 am

    Historians seem to show that most innovations are produced by Labour Governments and consolidations by National Governments. Some of the changes however by National Governments have been the incremental reduction of worker rights. Hence the drive to eliminate Unions and persist with a low wage economy.

    Must go out and deliver more fliers for Labour. Not sure that they do much more than herald that we are here but…

  3. Penny Bright 3
    17 September 2017 at 11:38 am

    NZ WHISTLE-BLOWER ALERT!

    National is NOT delivering housing, especially in Tamaki.

    IMO – both National PM Bill English and ‘Mr Fixit’ Steven Joyce have been worse than spectacularly USELESS in ‘delivering’ housing for New Zealanders.

    Under this National Government, more houses in Tamaki have gone than new houses have been built.

    237 Tamaki State houses have gone – relocated or demolished.

    Only 213 new houses have been built in FIVE years – of which only 92 are ‘social’ houses.

    The remaining 121 new houses have been for private sale.

    39 ‘affordable’ houses for first home buyers.

    82 ‘high end’ houses.

    PROOF that the Tamaki ‘Regeneration’ has been GENTRIFICATION.

    Destroying established communities in Glen Innes, Pt England and Panmure – pushing poorer people off desired real estate.

    IMO, Bill English and Steven Joyce, as Crown Shareholding Ministers in Tamaki Regeneration Ltd, have been personally responsible for the ‘housing crisis’ and increased homelessness in Tamaki.

    For whom exactly have this National Government – PM Bill English and ‘Mr Fixit’ Steven Joyce been delivering?

    Especially in Tamaki?

    IMO – private property developer$ and investor$.

    THE FACTS!

    ‪https://www.facebook.com/penny.bright.104/posts/1796625243683493‬

    ‪https://www.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/5840214/shareholdings‬

    PLEASE SHARE!

    These FACTS are not being reported by mainstream media – which IMO – is simply scandalous.

    Authorised by Penny Bright, 2017 Independent candidate for Tamaki, 86A School Rd, Kingsland, Auckland 1021.

    • greywarshark 3.1
      17 September 2017 at 12:26 pm

      Good facts to note Penny.

      • Penny Bright 3.1.1
        17 September 2017 at 1:57 pm

        The FACTS about this Tamaki SCAM are revealed in this 5 minute video.

        Which has had over 83,000 ‘views’ on Facebook in 3 days.

        ‪https://www.facebook.com/penny.bright.104/posts/1796625243683493‬

        ‪

  4. Ad 4
    17 September 2017 at 12:33 pm

    Most of Oram’s critique could be applied to Labour.

    Tax is the bluntest possible mechanism to direct an economy. Their R&D credits proposed aren’t big, and had limited effect last time.

    Labour have plenty of policies, but I’ll be damned if there’s an economic strategy in there.

    • Stuff The Politicians 4.1
      17 September 2017 at 1:06 pm

      Did you even bother to look at Labours policies Ad ?

    • Nic the NZer 4.2
      17 September 2017 at 2:49 pm

      Fiscal policy may be reasonably blunt but is at least relatively effective at directing the economy. On the other hand National policy is almost exclusively to maintain the existing fiscal balance and rely on monetary policy to direct the economy. This has been so ineffective there is a fresh new single issue party running on reforming this at the election.

      • Ad 4.2.1
        17 September 2017 at 2:57 pm

        Agree with that.

        • greywarshark 4.2.1.1
          17 September 2017 at 3:09 pm

          Ad
          Why does your identifier have different colours and shapes? Green and light blue. Is it a mood identifier, or indicates the political line?

          • Ad 4.2.1.1.1
            17 September 2017 at 3:27 pm

            Samsung phone to MacBook laptop I would presume.
            Otherwise ask the site controller.

          • Muttonbird 4.2.1.1.2
            17 September 2017 at 3:50 pm

            A very good question, greyrawshark. The light blue one is clearly anti-Labour and the green one is moderately socially conscious.

            • Ad 4.2.1.1.2.1
              17 September 2017 at 4:07 pm

              Oh Jesus go ask LPrent.
              Try your sad projections elsewhere.

              • lprent …
                17 September 2017 at 6:24 pm

                Do you want me to fix the emails up at the database?

              • WILD KATIPO …
                17 September 2017 at 10:12 pm

                Ad 4.2.1.1.2.1
                17 September 2017 at 4:07 pm

                … ” Oh Jesus go ask LPrent.
                Try your sad projections elsewhere ” …

                OI ! , – don’t use the Lords name in vain , please AD , otherwise I would suggest saying :

                Oh Muhammad / Buddha go ask LPrent.
                Try your sad projections elsewhere.

              • greywarshark …
                18 September 2017 at 10:03 am

                Hey Muttonbird
                You sure know how to stand on everybody’s toes with your caustic wit. Sometimes though ou are a caustic twit.

            • AB 4.2.1.1.2.2
              17 September 2017 at 4:57 pm

              Gets me thinking of Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa and his multiple personalities or “heteronyms”. All different, all interesting.
              Famous Pessoa quote:
              ““I’d woken up early, and I took a long time getting ready to exist.”

              • greywarshark …
                18 September 2017 at 10:20 am

                AB
                What a pleasure to have some high-class philosophising entering the mosh pit. And I mean this sincerely.

                (Modern term to add to those of Samuel Johnson’s 308 year collection and meanings. See google:

                Johnson’s Dictionary – A Harmless Drudge. Here Johnson gives an unusual definition for the word lexicographer, describing it as ‘a writer of dictionaries; a harmless drudge, that busies himself in tracing the original, and detailing the signification of words.’

                Johnson’s Dictionary – A Harmless Drudge – The British Library
                http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/dic/johnson/drudge/drudge.html)

            • lprent 4.2.1.1.2.3
              17 September 2017 at 6:21 pm

              Same IP. Looks like a typo on in the email address and that got caught in the cookie used for leaving messages when not logged in.

              We see this a lot. Especially when people shift around computers.

              I suggest that people get or use a gravator – it makes it way more obvious when leaving messages.

              https://thestandard.org.nz/faq/gravatar/#GravatarSignup

              • Muttonbird …
                17 September 2017 at 6:26 pm

                Thanks. I enjoy using a gravator because it’s easier to see my comments. It also gives a personality to each user and makes the place more colourful.

                • lprent …
                  17 September 2017 at 7:17 pm

                  …makes the place more colourful.

                  Of course that does immediately lead to the question that it couldn’t have been for this site. That is mostly white, grey and black with a bit of beige, blue and green. But the site colours are muted so you can see things like the gravatars and avatars. So what site did you find that made a black on on grey image “colorful”.

                  Actually don’t answer that. I prefer to keep my eyes intact rather than see yet another garish, blinking, 1990s wonder site. God I remember those things. 😈

                  Or did you mean something like it makes the site more personalised without the random patterns?

                  • Muttonbird …
                    18 September 2017 at 12:10 pm

                    Ha. Yes, I meant colourful as in more personal rather than actual colour.

                    I agree that less is more with forums for the reason you said – to allow avatars to do their job which is to make it easier to recognise posts.

                    Wish more people would use them.

  5. Draco T Bastard 5
    17 September 2017 at 3:19 pm

    That is the international norm, rather than selected recipients being funded by taxpayers via Callaghan, which is a Kiwi quirk.

    That’s actually wrong. Many other countries do that as well – especially the US which uses government departments and institutions to drive innovation in selected ways. The government department/institution is given a budget for R&D and then it chooses how that budget is spent. They’ll possibly have R&D that’s inhouse or outsourced and that outsourcing could be to state/private universities or to state/private enterprises (The Entrepreneurial State). The most well known of these state funded and directed R&D institutions is, of course, NASA. Apple’s Siri was developed through this system although it wasn’t Apple that did it but a small company that got bought up by Apple after they’d done the developing.

    The Callaghan system seems to be a failed copy of that system. Our system fails to have that government institution directed funding for specific results resulting in haphazard R&D.

    The Greens idea of a Minister for Manufacturing could be morphed into such an institution. A Ministry for Manufacturing which does R&D on manufacturing techniques with findings going to the public so that local business can use it to build local manufacturing that’s on par with the best in the world.

    Such a ministry would also be looking into developing our resources. The sustainable extraction and processing of them to then use in that manufacturing.

    Considering my idea of state factories founded around 3D printing which anybody can then use to produce any product on demand I’d even have that ministry building and maintaining those factories.

    • Ad 5.1
      17 September 2017 at 3:44 pm

      There’s lots of different R&D models, many better suited to small and narrow economies. The old Ministry of Research and Development studied bunches of them – particularly from Denmark, Singapore, Netherlands, and Israel. South Korea’s one is also worth looking at. The literature on the results is not currently massive, although it’s there.

      None are perfect, most are more successful than our starving, anachronistic, and timid set of mechanisms.

      I really like the Greens’ aim of turning much of our economy towards digital. And I appreciate that Labour wants a specific base for that in Dunedin. There is much to commend.

      But if the only mechanisms we can come up with to propel our remaining agrarian base into outstanding sustainable world-beating wealth is yet another set of taxes, then there is a real failure of national thinking and leadership. I would want to see that leadership from either of the major parties.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1
        17 September 2017 at 3:55 pm

        But if the only mechanisms we can come up with to propel our remaining agrarian base into outstanding sustainable world-beating wealth is yet another set of taxes, then there is a real failure of national thinking and leadership.

        That’s part and parcel of the neo-liberal system of using payment of money to encourage desired actions while taking money from people to discourage undesirable actions.

        It’s not a particularly good way of encouraging people and we really should be looking at other ideas. From what I can make out, simply ensuring people have enough to live and access to the necessary resources would seriously improve our innovation.

        • Ad 5.1.1.1
          17 September 2017 at 4:06 pm

          Motivation is one part of it.

          National leadership has some part.

          Universities another.

          Basic good wages, strong unions, infrastructure, public services – all necessary but insufficient conditions.

          There’s a whole ecosystem to innovation and productivity.

          If there were a perfect recipe, we would have found it. But this current government has done little to strengthen it, and I don’t currently see strong alternatives on offer.

          If I were charitable, there are bigger social priorities for the next government to solve – and we have time to do that while the economy is stable.

          • tracey 5.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2017 at 4:25 pm

            If immigration is slashed and 5 year bright line imposed, the economy will suffer bumps. I think we need those bumps so dont get me wrong. But your prediction of a stable economy are unlikely to prevail.

            • Ad 5.1.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2017 at 6:49 pm

              Both Treasury and Reserve Bank forecasts released recently show continuous growth and strong employment with a very soft landing into the longer term.

              Both National and Labour are signaling no major changes to tax for many years.

              So, no.
              The bumps to the New Zealand economy – as they have been for the last 20 plus years – will be external.

              • Tracey …
                17 September 2017 at 7:28 pm

                I keep forgetting. You know everything.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                17 September 2017 at 10:52 pm

                The economy is about to crash.

                That’s what the slowing housing bubble will do. As the private banks create less money due to the slowing house turn-over the economy will slow. That will slow the banks lending money even more starting a death spiral that will result in a serious crash.

                National didn’t avoid the GFC with their propping up of the housing market – they just delayed it a bit. Of course, when it hits they’ll blame Labour because they won’t be in power any more. Labour will really need to show that it was National’s policies that brought it about.

        • eco maori 5.1.1.2
          17 September 2017 at 8:17 pm

          +10000000

    • David Mac 5.2
      17 September 2017 at 4:53 pm

      R & D, hell yes, but I think we should be looking in areas where we have a natural headstart. An edge over the rest of the world.

      eg: A few strands of flax feel like they will cut my fingers off before breaking. The swamps around my place are full of it, grows like a weed. It’s the fibre used to make linen. I wonder what that fibre can do better than something that is in popular use now? I think we should be R and Ding down paths like this.

      • Ad 5.2.1
        17 September 2017 at 6:50 pm

        Agreed.

        Although I would go straight for Fonterra.
        Fonterra is the reason dairy farmers maximize volume over all else.

      • Stuart Munro 5.2.2
        17 September 2017 at 11:15 pm

        It is a logical crop – especially for riparian and roadside planting (it makes a good soft crash barrier) – but European linen is made from quite a different plant. There are anecdotal accounts of NZ flax being made into linen but most commercial use last century was as sacking and rope.

        The reason flax is not routinely made into fine fibre as cotton is, is that it contains a lot of hemicelluloses between the main fibres – which stick them together or tangle them up. Traditional Maori flax preparation involved lengthy working to break these up and soften the end product fibre. Irish linen sometimes used pond retting that would derive some value from bacteria that digest hemicelloses. Other techniques that would probably bear fruit are heat or pressure processes like the steam explosion method used to produce bamboo fibre from a rather less obvious textile source.

        Some work has been done on its use in reinforcing: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/app.29863/abstract

        A well designed process would aim to recover an antiseptic sap fraction, and the chlorophyll component would probably be suitable for stock feed.

        • David Mac 5.2.2.1
          18 September 2017 at 8:42 am

          Hi Stuart, yes, R & D into it’s potential as a reinforcing agent or similar, those sort of avenues.

          eg: A replacement for the plastic mesh currently used to hold the steep banks beside new motorways cuttings in place until the plantings retain the soil erosion. The NZ market would keep a factory in work for 2 days a year but the global market? Reinforcing in rammed earth walls? In concrete? An organic carbon fibre type product?

          Fonterra, I agree Ad, diverse and capable existing R & D infrastructure. The rest of the world is surfing on the rising Chinese household income. Like our logs, we ship bags of milk powder. There are only 4.5 million of us, we don’t even have to be that good at it. A weekly tub of Fonterra dairy food in 10% of Chinese household fridges….the figures are staggering. Farmers making the same $ with herds half the size.

          The bottling line at the Chinese owned wine-making operation close to me. I can’t read the labels, Mandarin. Palleted and shipped to a foodstuff distribution centre in China.

        • eco maori 5.2.2.2
          18 September 2017 at 12:39 pm

          Flax is also good for helping minimizing worms in stock to i would plant it all around farms its a pain in the ass if you mow lawns though.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.3
        17 September 2017 at 11:23 pm

        but I think we should be looking in areas where we have a natural headstart. An edge over the rest of the world.

        We don’t really have such a thing.

        A few strands of flax feel like they will cut my fingers off before breaking.

        Flax is another plant that is under rated. But I’d look to hemp to start with as it grows faster and we could possibly use it to clean up our over fertilised land. Throw in some cannabis for medical and recreational reasons and we’d be on to a sure fire winner.

        • David Mac 5.2.3.1
          18 September 2017 at 9:05 am

          Nah, just like people, as a nation we have a best foot to put forward. Hemp can be grown in many places around the world. I’m suggesting we look for solutions that can’t be replicated in third world locations. A viable use for flax has spin-off benefits. If we could develop it into a cash crop we create a financial reason for farmers to keep stock out of boggy/swampy areas, the waterway feeders

          Backpacker places are the same the world over. How can we do that like nobody else can? Create a unique experience and create fufilling work for the cash and job strapped? Marae-stay.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.2.3.1.1
            18 September 2017 at 9:38 am

            Hemp can be grown in many places around the world.

            So can flax. It’s not unique to us.

            I’m suggesting we look for solutions that can’t be replicated in third world locations.

            No such thing exists.

            If we could develop it into a cash crop we create a financial reason for farmers to keep stock out of boggy/swampy areas, the waterway feeders

            There’s certainly options available for flax. Using it to help regenerate our wetlands would be great. Would need to develop a market for it’s products. ATM there doesn’t seem to be a lot with only some two and a half million tonnes produced per year.

            • David Mac 5.2.3.1.1.1
              18 September 2017 at 9:58 am

              Flax or hemp may not be it. The Manuka honey thing, it’s niche, but 20 Manuka honey things, a few may runaway succeed. I’m suggesting we look for ways to unearth our next Manuka honey thing rather than bagging up more milk powder.

            • tracey 5.2.3.1.1.2
              18 September 2017 at 10:03 am

              Kakapo

  6. tracey 6
    17 September 2017 at 3:46 pm

    So Nays and many in the media have been haranging Labour for what Nats did in Election 08 BUT without being hammered by the media…

  7. Upnorth 7
    17 September 2017 at 4:41 pm

    I still struggle with the fact labour nzf and greens want to tax everything. Why do they want to do that.

    We need immigration and a very very simple tax system. I earn 90k a year 3 kids…I will be paying more!!!!

    Why why why…what have i done to deserve this

    • tracey 7.1
      17 September 2017 at 7:41 pm

      Because lowering taxes has corresponded with total degradation of our Health system.

      Because our economy is predicated on low inflation or full employment. We chose low inflation. That means the unemployed have to be paid for to keep inflation low.

      The disabled did not choose to be disabled, why do they deserve to life a subsistence life at best?

      Populations in rural areas are low but road costs are high, do they deserve poor or no roads?

      My brother complained about paying 60k in tax. His tax is higher than what half the population earn.

      In 1994 I earned 52k. In 2015 as a Senior Lecturer at a Tertiary I was paid 75k. In the meantime my home went up by over 1.5m. Wages have stayed low and not by accident. English never talks about income and wages during his campaign. His party has no policy on those. Wonder why?

      If you think the path we have been on for 30 to 40 years is working well for you, I cannot help you.

      We need to do something different to what we have been doing for decades… Look around you at who has becone better off.

      • Nic the NZer 7.1.1
        17 September 2017 at 10:08 pm

        Lowering Taxes may have corresponded with systematic under-funding of our health system (and our education system and transport to boot), however its important for the incoming government to understand and recognize that it is not and never has been a cause (the cause here is that the government believes it is spending enough of health). Instead they need to realize the government can always afford to properly fund all of the main public sector parts of the economy.

        Overall it is the governments insistence on maintaining a neutral fiscal balance (or even fiscal surplus) which causes the economy to remain in the present state of less than full employment. Ideally the incoming government would understand this well enough to give up on ‘fiscal responsibility’ and allow a deficit to occur by simply adding to their spending (which will allow the savings rate to increase and start to reduce the unemployment rate).

        This probably has some implications for what tax policy of the incoming government should be.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2
        17 September 2017 at 10:57 pm

        His party has no policy on those. Wonder why?

        Yes they do but they don’t talk about it because their policy is to lower wages even further.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2
      17 September 2017 at 10:55 pm

      Why why why…what have i done to deserve this

      You voted National who then put in place policies that are destroying our economy and our society.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.3
      18 September 2017 at 10:41 am

      In fact I suggest that people like UpNorth should not pay more tax, and should pay less. With a total 90k income and 3 children (and 2 adults?) Upnorth is below about 45% of the NZ income distribution.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/80229052/interactive-see-how-your-household-income-compares

      Certainly the poorer 80% of the NZ population should not pay a penny more and in fact should receive a large net increase in state funding (via reduced tax and / or increased subsidised services).

      We desperately need to increase tax, but on the wealthy – only the top 10% should pay more (much more!). They own 60% of the nation’s wealth (i.e. most of it) and are currently grossly undertaxed. They also will not suffer any hardship whatsoever if their wealth was reduced by 25% or so (so John Key would have to scrape by with $75m instead of $100m, for example)

  8. red-blooded 8
    17 September 2017 at 5:42 pm

    How will you be paying more, Upnorth? There’s no proposed increase for PAYE or GST. Perhaps you mean that you won’t be getting a tax cut? That’s not “paying more”, and even if it was (which it isn’t) I’d suggest you need to look at this with a bigger lens. It’s not all about you. Do we need more social housing? Yes. Are our hospitals and DHBs coping? No – they’ve been underfunded for years. What about our schools? Ditto… The list goes on. How do we pay for improvements? you guessed it – through our taxes.

    As it happens, we already have immigration and a very very simple tax system. That might be fine and dandy for you ($90k a year sounds pretty damn good to me), but there are people in our country who are homeless, hungry and losing hope. Many of them are kids who aren’t lucky enough to have parents earning such a good income. I care about them, do you?

    • Upnorth 8.1
      17 September 2017 at 6:20 pm

      Yes that is why I pay taxes pay my mortgage and only got UE never had any university free education.
      So I do care about my kids so don’t be so rude and tell me I need to look after everyone else. I pay my taxes and get no benefits or tax credits.
      I state again why does everyone want to tax the hell out of me…I’m do my bit.

      • Carolyn_nth 8.1.1
        17 September 2017 at 6:34 pm

        We all benefit from the tax take but in different ways. I don’t have children, and never will, but I’m happy for some of state spending to go on state early years and school years education, as well as on WFF, and free GP visits for those under 18 years, etc.

        A progressive tax system means those on highest incomes, and the wealthiest pay more – they can afford to pay more and have massively reaped the benefits of state run systems in diverse ways.

        I’m happy for more state spending to go on those most in need – those unable to work, the sick and disabled, etc – we all benefit from a society in which everyone has enough to live on.

        I do not want to be part of a society where large numbers of people are sleeping in the streets, in cars, in inadequate camp ground facilities, etc, and where the working poor need to choose between paying the rent or buying food or paying for power, etc.

        • tracey 8.1.1.1
          17 September 2017 at 7:35 pm

          I am similar to you. I have had no kids til I took in a 15 year old abandoned by his parents. I happily pay for schools and healthcare and transport for others. That is what living in a society is.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.2
        18 September 2017 at 7:31 am

        What are you dribbling about?

        Whinging and whinging and whinging about non-existent tax proposals. Are you terrified that there are wolves under your bed too? Poor baby.

        On $90k and voting National, like a turkey voting for Xmas. Blaming anyone but yourself for the shitty incompetent policies you support. You’re pathetic.

      • greywarshark 8.1.3
        18 September 2017 at 10:12 am

        Upnorth
        You are part of a society that provides the things you have been able to use and perhaps part pay for. You talk as if you are some person annointed from heaven and have entitlement to get everything offered to you at a big discount, and bugger everyone else.

        You think you should be offered a special deal with someone saying “Belong to this group, and we can get everything for you wholesale”. People who talk openly like this often mean that the ‘everything’ fell off the back of a truck; that it was obtained by hook and by being a crook.

        And the truth is this is the path taken by the RWs and their fellow travellers, and the most adept of these are the National Party. So stick with them if you want but don’t come here moaning about the crooks not getting treatment that is not privileged in your favour.

  9. Upnorth 9
    17 September 2017 at 7:42 pm

    Yes but I do care about society that’s my point…why are we getting hit all the time. .I’m sick of it

    • Carolyn_nth 9.1
      17 September 2017 at 8:04 pm

      What things are you actually being hit with? And how will you be paying more tax under Labour and the GP?

      Not sure what you are always being hit with?

      I’m sIck of constantly increasing power and rent, the increasing difficulty of finding decent places to rent at a reasonable price.

      None of that’s the fault of Labour or the GP. they have policies to try and fix that.

      I don’t like that state schools charge parents for a lot of extras. That’s not the fault of Labour or the GP. I don’t like that many put off going to the doctors and the dentist, etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2
      17 September 2017 at 11:07 pm

      but I do care about society that’s my point…

      You don’t show any signs of that. You only show signs of caring only for yourself.

      Everything that you’ve said here is a whinge about how much you’re paying with nothing about how much you’re getting – civil society, low crime, educated populace that improves your living standards – the list goes on and on.

      And all you do is whinge about having to pay for the services rendered to you by society.

    • Robert Guyton 9.3
      18 September 2017 at 9:14 am

      This “getting hit” “being slammed” “kicked in the teeth” etc. tough-talk is woven through the National Party/Right wing narrative. Such violent thinks and talks. Scary stuff comin’ at ya!

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4
      18 September 2017 at 10:56 am

      Upnorth – in fact the policies of the National Party are what are hitting you. Low tax for the wealthy and low wages and low services for everyone else. Please see my comment at 7.3.

      While I am a strong advocate for tax reform (and a large increase in total tax take) – we should remember that we want less tax (or more government spending) for most people, because most people in NZ are comparatively very poor compared to the very rich, even though we are a wealthy country.

  10. Sumsuch 10
    18 September 2017 at 10:21 pm

    Difficult to deny Oram-ji’s integrity. Him one of the few Christians who take that tack–tho’ we appreciate these ones greatly. Rationalization is religion’s real creed. 2008, National argued for keeping up with OZ as a major plank–except for them sinking, no …And the dire tinkerer English is bringing back another fence-pale of that election, boot camps. Laughter is indeed universal.

    About putting the poor right on where they’ve been going wrong, Bill, how about for a start making them not poor? 20% increase in benefits–what your joy-girl, Shipley, took away from US!

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.