Peters campaigned against the Nats – his party wants him to do the right thing

Written By: - Date published: 7:02 am, September 27th, 2017 - 170 comments
Categories: democratic participation, election 2017, national, same old national, winston peters - Tags: , , ,

It’s interesting to read Peters’ speech to the NZF Convention earlier this year:

Convention Speech: The Battle For New Zealand

17 July 2017
Speech Rt Hon Winston Peters

New Zealanders are asking themselves the obvious question – will we have a stable government. Political stability will be what the National Party tries to argue in this election that they represent. Well, the world’s most stable, unsinkable ship was the Titanic, until it sank.

• Is there anything stable about Nick Smith’s housing policy?

• Is there anything stable regarding our First Freedom – the freedom to be secure in our homes and businesses, and on our streets?

• What’s stable about National’s policing policy when the police are short-handed everywhere.

• What is stable about a society with worrying mental health issues, as Mike King pointed out – what is stable about a system where one has to prove they are suicidal to even access the little services that are available?

• What is stable about an economy when over 130,000 can’t even get one hour’s work, when 92,000 young people aren’t in education, training or employment? Where another 100,000 are desperately seeking more work hours?

• What’s stable about an economy with the most volatile currency in the whole wide world? • What’s stable about an economy where imports way exceed exports, or where manufacturing is declining?

• What’s stable about an economy when the level of home ownership is the lowest in 63 years, or where Maori home ownership has declined by a massive 38%?

• What’s stable about an economy when hundreds of GPs write to the government saying they can’t get a lunch break, they are so overloaded. And where so many district health boards are in debt?

• What’s stable about an economy where education sees kids packed into libraries, corridors or worse for their lessons?

• Or students leaving university with more debt and no job than their parents with a job?

• What’s stable in an economy that signs up to the Paris Agreement and paying $1400m a year offshore when we could fix our climate change obligations back here all by ourselves?

• What’s stable about a government that is converting railways from electricity back to diesel, and shutting down lines everywhere, preferring roads instead?

This government wreaks of instability from the top all the way down to Todd Barclay.
…
This country is headed for a political upset. What’s happening in NZ is that people have simply had a gutsful, where the poor have been bypassed and the middle-class have been left behind.
…
National is the Robin Hood party in reverse.

They are taking off the poor to give to the rich, many of whom are foreigners.

Under National we are a country that does not invest in its people and itself. Under them our country will have given up.

What sort of government is National?

What sort of a Government allows an unprecedented flood of migrants running at a net 73,000 a year?

What sort of government allows in a tsunami of low skilled immigrants and puts their interests first?

What sort of government allows massive population growth from immigration when public services are already grossly overloaded and stretched to breaking point?

What sort of government allows a housing crisis that not only threatens the financial stability of the country but also has killed the home ownership prospects of most young Kiwis?

What sort of government would destroy the livability and quality of life of Auckland in its obsession with massive population growth?

What sort of government would deliberately use the trick of mass immigration to inflate GDP growth numbers while concealing the enormous costs this influx imposes on ordinary New Zealanders?

What sort of government has happily seen the sale of hundreds of thousands of hectares of NZ land into foreign ownership along with the sale of many other valuable property and business assets offshore?

What sort of government has not lifted a finger over 9 years to reduce the 95% foreign ownership of the NZ banking sector – with the huge outflow of profits and dividends this entails?

The answer to these pertinent questions is plain.

We have a government that works only for the elite few – not for you!

We have a government that always puts the short-term profits and greed of its cronies ahead of the interests of New Zealanders as a whole.

We have a government that serves the globalization agenda of its mates in big corporates and international business

Some of us can remember when we governments that took their role as stewards and guardians of New Zealand’s collective interests seriously.
…
We are asking New Zealanders to think for a moment. Not about support, but about trust. When did they last have a leader, they could actually trust. Not just to run the country but who could actually be trusted. …

This speech certainly resonated with NZF members, who cheered along and yelled out support (see video extracts here). The Herald sums up:

‘Trying to con the public’: What Winston Peters really thinks of National

Video footage has emerged of Winston Peters making a scathing attack on Bill English and a number of other MPs – saying they have created an unstable government that has exacerbated poverty.
…
“This Government reeks of instability from the very top all the way down to Todd Barclay. The poor have been bypassed and the middle-class have been left behind.”
…
Peters went on in his speech to call the National Government “Robin Hood” in reverse – taking off the poor to give to the rich, many of whom are foreigners.

“They want to know why as working men and women they are so damn poor, and why so many ‘shiny bums’ in Wellington are not doing anything to help them.”

He also called out a number of National MPs by name, for being untrustworthy, and said English was “brazenly trying to con the public”. “Bill English goes around boasting that people want to come to New Zealand because we are a growing economy. Much of the world is a hell hole. Talk about post-truth politics.” He questioned when New Zealanders last felt they could actually trust a National MP. …

That stuff is kinda hard to walk back. NZF Party members voted on the reasonable expectation that Peters would use any position of power to boot the Nats out. And now, post election, they are speaking up loudly:

Winston Peters getting flooded with messages to pick a Labour-led government

If Winston Peters was to believe his Facebook account then it’s Labour’s door he should be knocking on to form a government with.

The NZ First leader’s social media has been inundated with comments from his supporters, and quite possibly Labour supporters, saying things like “54 per cent of voters voted for change”.
…
“New Zealanders wanted MMP so that ALL people would have a say, so that ALL parties would be heard, BIG AND SMALL. This is what our country needs. Positive Change through the collaboration of 3 different viewpoints…..I’m so excited to see the RED BLACK & GREEN start to mend Aotearoa,” was another post. …

See also:

Winston Peters mum on coalition, but voters make preferences clear

Winston Peters’ voters wanted change and now they are demanding it on Mr Peters’ own Facebook page.

Hundreds of posts from people who voted for New Zealand First are imploring Mr Peters’ to ally himself with Labour and the Greens to form a new coalition Government.

“I voted NZ FIRST for change. Please do right by all the kiwis that don’t have a voice and my vote won’t be wasted,” one person wrote.

“54 percent of voters voted for change! Be the change Winston!” another wrote.

“I would love to see you choose Labour. I think National will steamroll you somehow otherwise. Keep it kiwi and choose labour please,” another asked.
…
“National backstabbed you and you know it. National is too cocky and proud to admit their own failures. What a great opportunity for a change of good government,” one wrote.

“Go with Labour, please Winston. You know Bill will promise the earth and then deliver nothing. NZ wants and needs change!” another said. …

The anecdotal evidence is backed by this poll before the election (Colmar Brunton):

1 NEWS Colmar Brunton poll: Kiwis want NZ First to go with Labour, not National

The latest 1 NEWS Colmar Brunton election poll has revealed Kiwis would prefer New Zealand First supports a Labour-led government.
…
The poll showed 46 per cent of respondents supported Labour, a third say National and seven per cent don’t want the party in government at all. The rest don’t know. …

And now (unscientific Facebook poll):

Labour or National – who do Kiwis want Winston Peters to choose?
…
The question asked, ‘Who do you think Winston should choose?’, with a choice between the National Party, and the Labour Party with the Greens. Over 6,100 voted for Labour and Greens, over 2,500 voted for National, and there were about 350 other Facebook emojis used as at 5.30pm today. …

To keep faith with democracy and with his party members Peters has to go with Labour Green. Otherwise trust in politicians takes another hit, and NZF will implode.

Update: Newsroom goes through lots of recent Peters speeches and pulls out key quotes.

170 comments on “Peters campaigned against the Nats – his party wants him to do the right thing ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Incognito 1
    27 September 2017 at 7:44 am

    It is not all about Peters, is it?

    I’m getting over this dichotomous thinking; this was an election under MMP (not FPP) and any party (even ACT) is more than just its leader. MSM is not helping to combat these views because it is better for clicks & sales to simplify stuff, especially complex stuff. In other words, reduce it down to simple one-liners that ‘resonate’.

    • Bearded Git 1.1
      27 September 2017 at 8:31 am

      Agreed It’s not all about Peters-so look at NZF No.3 Tracy Martin. She clearly prefers Labour’s education policy that is consistent with NZF’s policy-listen to Morning Report this morning. She may well be Minister of Education in 2 weeks’ time.

      After reading the speech above I can’t see NZF going with the Nats. 62-58 or 63-57 would be a stable government .

    • The Lone Haranguer 1.2
      27 September 2017 at 11:26 am

      To be fair, ACT isnt really any more than just its leader. Just like United Future wasnt any more than just its leader.

      One is now dead and gone, and the other is the walking dead (not quite gone)

      • tc 1.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 2:03 pm

        Act’s not even that IMO, it’s a subsidary of national backed by the likes of Alan Gibbs etc. Whereas UF was all Dunne with scary stalkers like PG.

        They grab a useful idiot/sock puppet to prop up National by grinning and winning Epsom at Nats discretion.

        The last time Act had any ‘talent’ politically was when Hide was ripping akl apart for supershity because like or dislike Hide he did a job for his backers. Seymour is no more his own man than I am the king of Siam.

  2. Ed 2
    27 September 2017 at 7:52 am

    Compare and contrast New Zealand 1st, National and Labour’s policies.
    It’s easy to see that Peters’ party aligns far more with Labour.

  3. Pat 3
    27 September 2017 at 7:57 am

    someone else had the same idea..

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/26/50093/winstons-little-black-book

    going by that list its a no brainer…..but then who would know

    • The Lone Haranguer 3.1
      27 September 2017 at 11:34 am

      Logic and the campaign trail are not necessarily the same thing.

      Like everyone, I have no idea which way NZF will go, but I figure that a Labour/NZF/Green coalition will not closely resemble anything much that the parties campaigned on, and that a Nats/NZF coalition will not closely resemble anything much that the parties campaigned on either.

      24 September was a new dawn.

      The only thing I think we can assume is that NZF will pull either Labour or the Nats closer to the centre.

  4. Keith 4
    27 September 2017 at 8:03 am

    Although I think it is more likely he will go with National, no evidence of why, rather his contrarian behaviour and that the Greens had it in for him, the ONE thing that I cannot go past as to why he would pick National is their dirty politics hit job on him with the pension overpayments.

    How could anybody who isn’t a dumb Nat voter ever trust a party as dishonest as National? The Party of the 11 billion dollar hole lie! The dirty politics party! The Party of Bill English, Stephen Joyce, Paula Bennett, Judith Collins, to name but a few of their most rotten members.

    These slimy pricks would be plotting against you 24/7, you just know they would, the moment a door closed, your back was turned, you left the country, National MP’s and their equally repugnant entourage would be approaching impressionable NZ First MP’s to undermine Peters.

    Good luck Winston but at least you know you will be royally done over if you go with National!

    • repateet 4.1
      27 September 2017 at 8:46 am

      The problem isn’t Bill English, Stephen Joyce, Paula Bennett and Judith Collins being “rotten slimy pricks”, it’s so many thinking that they’re marvellous and their rotten slimy attributes being desirable.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2
      27 September 2017 at 12:31 pm

      the Greens had it in for him

      [Citation Needed]

    • cleangreen 4.3
      27 September 2017 at 5:41 pm

      Yes Keith,

      I heard on this morning news that strangely when he came to Wellington this morning it was reported on radio that he was somehow selected by the airline company to be sitting ‘one seat away from him” so knowuing how much ‘bad blood’ there was between them the report suggested Winston had an uncomfortable flight to Wellington today.

      The bloody press is so childish aren’t they?

      Winston has devoured far worse than the ‘slimmy likes of Joyce’ in his time and he would not have worried a bit about this ‘close encounter with the dreadnought Joyce.’

      I heartily agree with Sanctuary we need to take a break and let Winnstoon do his magic to save our dear NZ from total destruction at the hands of the National machine.

    • Thinkerr 4.4
      7 October 2017 at 8:05 am

      IMHO, they would start by buying off some of his MPs. It wouldn’t be hard to imagine Jones switching parties, after having had that cosy role basking in the South Pacific and not standing for election.

      I think National would try to rip the innards out of NZF then stuff the carcass like a Christmas turkey.

  5. Sanctuary 5
    27 September 2017 at 8:09 am

    Everyone should take a break, I know I found looking at absolutely no politics for 48 hours after the election was great! The media needs to go holiday until the specials come back on the 7th of October.

    We’ll know then the lie of the land in the parliament. My guess is if Labour/Greens pull two back from the Nats then Peters will go left with 63. If they don’t, then 61 is just not enough to govern and he’ll go with the Nats.

  6. Cinny 6
    27 September 2017 at 8:20 am

    Speculation is one thing, reality is another.

    Fascinating article by Tim Murphy, thanks Tim for a dose of reality via Winstons speeches.

  7. Grantoc 7
    27 September 2017 at 8:44 am

    Anthony

    All of the parties campaigned against each other. That’s why they call it an election. On the basis of your argument the Greens should form a coalition with National because at times they campaigned against Labour (capital gains tax etc).

    If you think this a credible reason for a NZ First/Labour coalition then in my opinion your thinking is spurious and desperate. There seems to be more and more of this from the left at the moment – note the various teacher unions sychophantly praising NZ First’s apparent education policies on National Radio this morning. Last week the same unions wouldn’t have had a bar of NZ First for other reasons, such as immigration/refugees etc.

    • Cinny 7.1
      27 September 2017 at 8:57 am

      Spin it anyway you want Grantoc, but Teachers have been calling out for change for such a long time as National Standards fail our children and tertiary education plunges them into debt and poverty if they want to improve their lives.

      The opposition parties understand this and have listened to the teachers. NZF’s views on education have not changed, instead they are getting coverage as speculation continues.

      • Grantoc 7.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 10:44 am

        Cinny

        You make some good points.

        What I’m increasingly disturbed by though is how some political parties and any number of different interest groups are treating Winston Peters as though he is some sort of Messiah; some sort of second coming. And in desperation are, in my opinion, almost begging him to deliver what they want. Peter’s is not the second coming. And he won’t be able to deliver any where near what is being asked of him.

        I would actually like the main parties to clearly state their non negotiable positions (as Jacinda has done with the Maori seats) and to be prepared to walk away from dealing with Peters and NZ First if he won’t come to the party.

        They will be rewarded by the voters if they do this I think.

        I think we need to remember that NZ First got less than 10% of the vote – this is the amount of power and influence they should actually have.

        • Cinny 7.1.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 11:32 am

          grantoc, are you calling a union of NZ Educators an interest group? Really?!!

          Did you know that ACT wanted to give teachers a pay rise if they left such groups, as a way of shutting down teachers opposition to the pre-election governments’ education decisions and lack of engagement with the educators of our nation?

          No one ever got into teaching to make money, teachers engage in their profession to improve lives rather than line their pockets.

          I’m huge on education, based my vote on it, so made sure I understood all the parties policies around it and actively endorsed any parties that oppose national standards and promoted the logic for free tertiary education. Kids come first, once society really values them, the rewards will be tenfold for NZ as a whole. No wonder educators are happy about the election results thus far and decided to be vocal about it 😀

          As it is now post-election, any negotiable positions would have been made clear pre-election, it’s up to the leaders now, we voted for them to make decisions on our behalf.

          MMP for the win all day every day, because no one party should ever rule this nation.

          Shame the last government were anti cross-party groups on important issues, maybe there would not be so much suffering if they hadn’t been.

          • Grantoc 7.1.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 2:02 pm

            Cinny

            Not at all.

            ‘Interest Groups’ is just a generic term to describe various different types of groups who appear to be clamoring for NZ First’s attention. The most recent of these to put their hands up to be noticed by NZ First happened to be from the teaching sector.

            At the minute I am more interested in this behaviour; which I think is demeaning to the interest groups in question.

            • Cinny 7.1.1.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 5:16 pm

              Will have to agree to disagree me thinks, in this instance of a ‘label’, as I see groups of educators as more than an ‘interest group’, but I do understand your logic for labeling them as such.

              My outlook is thus… Education is not just an ‘interest’ for those working in the sector, it’s a lifestyle choice to enrich and enhance a society, like a health professional, it’s a calling rather than an interest.

              Good on the educators for saying how they feel about the fate of our education sector.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2
      27 September 2017 at 9:00 am

      “Your” “logic” is so persuasive and very very insightful. I like the little note of whinging at the end too. The teacher unions don’t want a National government? Boo hoo, perhaps you should have thought about that before piling on the cretinous disrespect for the last nine years decades.

    • AB 7.3
      27 September 2017 at 10:27 am

      “All of the parties campaigned against each other”
      That’s just a simple truism that tells us nothing – it certainly does not mean that any imaginable combination of parties is a likely as any other.
      What matters is the quantity of disagreement between parties and their cultural fit. I think Anthony was arguing that on the basis of those two factors a Nat-NZF combination is not a natural coalition.
      But frankly who knows? One can only express a preference and then wait and see.
      Personally I’m torn – L/NZF/G could be interesting as I would be hoping the right would totally disgrace itself in an insane OTT reaction. And I would expect that coalition to at least alleviate the suffering of some people.
      On the other hand – I would rather see Nat go into opposition in total disarray so that there is time to build an alternative economic vision based on equality and sustainability.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.4
      27 September 2017 at 12:34 pm

      All of the parties campaigned against each other.

      No they didn’t. The Greens and Labour specifically campaigned on the premise that they’d work together.

      • xanthe 7.4.1
        27 September 2017 at 12:39 pm

        from what i observed the Greens very much campaigned against Labour MOU notwithstanding IMHO

        • Draco T Bastard 7.4.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 2:20 pm

          No, they really didn’t. They had somewhat different policies but those policies also had much in common.

          It seems to be a problem with our adversarial system in that, when people do cooperate, they’re still seen as enemies.

          • xanthe 7.4.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 4:08 pm

            i believe that here was a significant attempt by greens to specifically take labour votes throughout the campaign. such efforts can not be seen as “change the government” effort.

  8. xanthe 8
    27 September 2017 at 8:53 am

    If winston was to go into coalition with labour and exclude the greens what could the greens actually do?

    • solkta 8.1
      27 September 2017 at 9:13 am

      They don’t have the numbers to govern without the Greens.

      • xanthe 8.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 9:28 am

        Ahh you are right they do not have the numbers on preliminary results BUT on Oct 7 it is likely that lab NZF will have more than Nat (if nat loses 1 and Lab gains 2 for instance) This is i think quite a likely scenario, for now the question is hypothetical ,

        What are the options for forming a government where Lab/Nzf have more seats than Nat/act but not an absolute majority? how far would they fly without the greens?

        • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 2:32 pm

          Meh!

          • xanthe 8.1.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 4:10 pm

            Meh indeed. but I can see looming a strong likelihood that the greens could be asked for confidence and supply or to abstain on such votes outside of cabinet.

            this is a very real scenario after final count considering the players.

    • Macro 8.2
      27 September 2017 at 11:49 pm

      Actually Labour and NZF could govern without the Greens as a minority Govt if the Greens were to give Confidence and Supply.

  9. Sparky 9
    27 September 2017 at 9:06 am

    Fantastic speech. Its what drew me to NZF. I just hope my faith was well placed and yes I emailed Mr Peters asking he align with Labour and the Greens. That said they need to have something to offer, to be able to work with NZF and this will be the key issue.

  10. cleangreen 10
    27 September 2017 at 9:57 am

    Peter ‘pooh’ Dunne this morning on Radio NZ said greens should go with national to cut out NZ First!!!!!!!

    We all knew Dunne was ‘dung,

    But now he wants to destroy the greens and NZ as well?????

    • Gristle 10.1
      27 September 2017 at 12:48 pm

      One of the prime reasons Mr Dunne used to promote a National- NZF coalition is that it is easier to run a 2 party coalition than a 3 party coalition. Given that he has come from a background of having 4 party coalitions (which he described as “effective”) why is “two” intrinsically better than “three” or “four”?

      As to having a Blue-Green government,I do not think that this is a now a good fit. The recent reduction of Green support from 15% to 6% was on the back of re-focusing the welfare reform. My guess, in the absence of data, is that the Blue part of the Greens was burnt off, leaving the core supporters aligning on environmental and left leaning on economics and welfare. As such, I see that there is a low probability of the Greens being a coalition partner with National

      As an alternative, to have a C and S arrangement with the Greens would see the National Party have to give some really really solid and quickly implemented environmental policies. The impact of these environmental policies would land on farmers and the carbon economy.

  11. Trey 11
    27 September 2017 at 10:06 am

    The Labour Party gained 13 new seats this election. Every other party (excluding ACT who are irrelevant) lost seats. That includes National that lost three seats and will lose more when the specials are counted. Hopefully that indicates to Winston that New Zealnaders do want change.

    • Craig H 11.1
      27 September 2017 at 3:49 pm

      Totally agree – another way to look at it is that Labour was the only party to gain votes from last election to this election (ignoring the really small parties, although I think they all lost votes as well, and not including TOP because they didn’t exist last time). Nats, ACT, UF, MP, NZ1, Greens, Conservatives, Mana, Internet Party (even adding these two up) – all got fewer votes and a smaller vote share in 2017 than in 2014. Sure, TOP grabbed some votes, but not enough to make up for that (and the Conservatives shed far more than TOP gained).

    • cleangreen 11.2
      27 September 2017 at 5:46 pm

      I heartily agree with your logic Gristle, 100%

  12. millsy 12
    27 September 2017 at 10:35 am

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m not going to set myself up for disappointment, like back when I was 16, and thought 100% that Winston was going to go left back in 1996. I remember that speech as clear as day — 7pm at night, it went for ages before he said he was going with National party. I was gutted. Really gutted.

    Now, at 37, Im a little more realistic about what is going to happen:

    1) Nothing until after the specials are counted
    2) Winston will not necessarily go with Labour/Greens

    Suggest you all relax.

    Kinda over all these journalists interviewing their keyboards now. We are going to get a lot of click bait/fake news over the next fortnight.

    • Cinny 12.1
      27 September 2017 at 11:35 am

      + infinity

    • Robert Guyton 12.2
      27 September 2017 at 2:36 pm

      At 37, you’re “a little more realistic..”
      Young fella, don’t go all bland on us; commit to success, profess your desire and back your horse!
      Green/Labour/NZF
      Live life on the edge.

  13. Kevin 13
    27 September 2017 at 10:37 am

    I would like to see the negotiations with National and NZF go all the way, then for him to fuck them over in the media before telling them ‘no’.

    Karma.

    • r0b 13.1
      27 September 2017 at 10:42 am

      No way of being certain of course, but I believe that this may be what is happening right now.

    • cleangreen 13.2
      27 September 2017 at 5:51 pm

      Bloody brilliant Kevin 10000%
      You get today’s prize of a chocolate fish.

      Yes won’t Winston look good again, raising that sign again with one word NO.

  14. Enough is Enough 14
    27 September 2017 at 11:08 am

    r0b

    You are deluded if you think NZ First voters went into the booth thinking Winston would form a government on the left.

    He campaigned against the government to get the biggest vote he could.

    He never at anytime indicated which way he would go and to try and suggest he did is dangerous when it comes to influencing Winston.

    • cleangreen 14.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:12 pm

      Enough is Enough, – you said – “He (winston) never at anytime indicated which way he would go”.

      What absolute rubbish you talk EIE.

      You are deranged yourself.

      You must be working for the national spin machine right?

      I have been to several public held meeting with Winston s[eaking over the last two elections and every time he has said to turn NZ around we all need to change the Government, (my words) but everyone heard his message and spoke to him of this in question time.

      Please don’t paint Winston as blue that would be a real dangerous suggestion you are ‘inferring’ as he will go with what is best for NZ plus he wants to leave NZ First in a solid position to fight again in future and as you and everyone knows that when any smaller Party goes into a coalition with national they all get destroyed, but perhaps you are a National supporterr and wish NZ First to be destroyed?

  15. coolas 15
    27 September 2017 at 11:29 am

    Given Greens won’t co-op with National.
    What would happen if NZF went with neither major party?
    Could National form a Govt without a majority? with all legislation up for discussion/compromise bill by bill?

  16. Frida 16
    27 September 2017 at 11:46 am

    Not another election I don’t think @Cinny. I think it would be vote by vote legislation, with the potential for any one Bill (pardon the pun!) to bring the government down. i.e. minority Govt with NZ First C&S. But I could be mistaken.

  17. chickens head cut off 17
    27 September 2017 at 12:09 pm

    In terms of power NZF could go with either National OR Labour. In terms of good Govt there is really only Labour.

    But NZF have cards to play: have been in govt. before, second biggest coalition partne due to vote tally, their vote base is politically mature.

    The stumbling block to a Labour lead coalition govt. would be the Green party not accepting it is clearly the junior partner out of the three.

    The ugly unhinged side to the Green Party scared and woke up their more mature voters back to the Labour Party, and they were reduced to their politically incapable ‘shiney happy people holding hands and laughing’ core to survive.

    If they get overly pushy in coalition talks, that include NZF, in stopping a Labour lead Govt from being formed, they will annihilate their remaining foundational support base as in the New Zealand context, it’s core vote has always been a anti-National vote. That’s the price the post Rod Donald Greens, have been in a state of denial about that they pay for their brand… but it is ultimately what keeps them afloat electorally.

    • xanthe 17.1
      27 September 2017 at 4:57 pm

      “The ugly unhinged side to the Green Party scared and woke up their more mature voters back to the Labour Party, ”

      and worse still .. while it looks like that faction will be a part of any coalition it will move voters away from labour towards national.

      The greens must own the reality that there is a significant vote that is anti green and anyone they “support” will also be disadvantaged by that.

    • cleangreen 17.2
      27 September 2017 at 6:18 pm

      Yep CHCO,

      I was a gren party member when Rod Donald and Jeanette/Sue cmbo was runningte greens.

      This was a good Party I miss, but like you say ‘The ugly unhinged side to the Green Party scared and woke up their more mature voters’ this happend to me and now I find myself aligned to NZ First also.

      • KJT 17.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 6:45 pm

        The side of the Greens that dared you to do something about poverty. I can see why that scared some out of their middle class complacency.
        “Hell, we may have to pay more taxes to reduce poverty”.

      • tracey 17.2.2
        28 September 2017 at 5:09 pm

        Seems odd that Fitzsimmons emerged to help after Turei stepped down as Leadsr. How does that fit with yoyr categorisation? Is she being duped too?

    • beatie 17.3
      27 September 2017 at 8:58 pm

      What exactly is ”the ugly, unhinged side” of green voters?

    • tracey 17.4
      28 September 2017 at 5:11 pm

      Have a look at the stats about Green performance in the Poverty, Climate and Rivers thread.

      You can see something of an explanation for this loss of so calked mature voters

  18. C DAWG 18
    27 September 2017 at 12:31 pm

    That’s a solid speech. Anyone else finding it a bit redankulous we are having the election campaign AFTER the election. That a 9th September poll shows the poorly represented public had some unity on apex issues needing to change even amid the joke of a campaign. Slightly gratifying but mostly nauseating that talking heads and print clowns have to accidentally or grudgingly or whatever say that LAB+GRN+NZF could be a majority and *gasp* they even line up pretty well on enough apex issues to keep them busy for a term.

    Winston First is a bit of a bastard on workers rights, but at least he is down with a living wage. Scrapping stupid league table edu standards. Immediately stopping under funding health. Shut up immediately about private partnerships on health or any other assets. Restart super contributions? Bottled water tax. Medicinal weed? Immediate hand brake on poorly targeted immigration. Real action on child hunger and poverty. Regional jobs for riparian restoration. There is a pretty simple list that there is work to do. Plus the Greens have actually bothered to do some planning and costing so that’s handy. I don’t even care if Winnie gets to coat tail some useful progressive initiatives to his “legacy” of a bus card and vapidity.

    Kinda wish they weren’t total dickheads to each other and just made a roadmap 2 months ago that they would just work together to start fixing the shit 60-70-80+ % of all NZ agrees with. We deserve better than this clown car of dinosaurs playing FPP to then get a nice echo chamber of corporate tools in the media shouting MMP is dead because maths are inconvenient and that same media has the integrity of a Nat cabinet. I include Jacinda as a dinosaur throwing eerbody under the bus and not having the balls to just shout about unify for the obvious work to do and give the dead fourth estate no oxygen to push Billshit. I find that more relentlessly positive than just hoping to “swing” some selfish slushy “middle”. I’m down with giving Winston a last chance to be a useful human, but that goes for Labour too. If a 4th term happens I can’t imagine we will have any rights or media left in 3 years time…

    • red-blooded 18.1
      27 September 2017 at 2:11 pm

      Nobody was “thrown under a bus” by Jacinda in this election campaign. If this is a reference to Meteria Turei, I would point out:
      1) Nobody in the Labour team advised her to go public with the details about her past when she clearly hadn’t done the work (talking to past flatmates, extended family etc, checking that nothing else would come out to undermine her), thought about basics like paying the money back (she’s a wealthy woman) or making sure her party was united behind her (which they clearly weren’t).
      2) When Turei finally accepted that she was hurting her party and the chances of a Left coalition government, she announced she wouldn”t be asking for a cabinet position. I’m sure there had been discussions with Ardern (or at least some in the Labour team), but she was allowed the dignity of making her own decision/announcement.
      3) She stood down from the co-leader’s position because of tensions in her own party and the effect she was having on them in the polls. Labour wasn’t part of that.

      Turei and the Greens have to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions, and so do Green supporters. She had a point she wanted to make – a conversation she wanted to push further forward into the public consciousness. The tactic she chose had clear risks, though, and presumably she knew that.

      • adam 18.1.1
        28 September 2017 at 1:26 am

        Must get a masters in politics so I can dance on that pin…

        How do you sleep at night red-blooded, when the interest of your middle class technocratic mates keep getting called into question by us dumb working folk.

    • cleangreen 18.2
      27 September 2017 at 6:26 pm

      Good stuff there C DAWG!!!!
      ‘I can’t imagine we will have any rights or media left in 3 years time…’

      The media is corporate contolled now under national and Winston’s policy inside NZ First policy platform says they will have the public media we all own and set it up again as a public service with a voice for us all, because he and us all see now we have virtually no voice should we ask TVNZ/RadioNZ for any press cover for our regional issues now, so I like NZ First.

  19. Psycho Milt 19
    27 September 2017 at 1:37 pm

    Hundreds of posts from people who voted for New Zealand First are imploring Mr Peters’ to ally himself with Labour and the Greens to form a new coalition Government.

    “I voted NZ FIRST for change. Please do right by all the kiwis that don’t have a voice and my vote won’t be wasted,” one person wrote.

    “54 percent of voters voted for change! Be the change Winston!” another wrote.

    What a pack of dumb cunts. Listen up, numbnuts: if you wanted a change of government, you should have voted for a party that intended to change the government. It’s not rocket science.

    • Siobhan 19.1
      27 September 2017 at 2:24 pm

      They voted for a change of Government as in for Winnie to ‘change’ National into the sort of National government that listens to cantankerous old b’stards.. If they had wanted a Change of Government to a different political Party they would have voted for Labour.

  20. Enough is Enough 20
    27 September 2017 at 1:51 pm

    What many people misunderstand in these negotiations is it is about the next three years. Not what has gone on in the past.

    Winston will be going to both sides and saying how can you deliver on NZ First’s policy platform. The side that can give him the most will win his support. It is that simple.

    He doesn’t care what National has done in the past. He cares about what he can deliver in the next three years.

    • Andre 20.1
      27 September 2017 at 2:27 pm

      “He doesn’t care what National has done in the past.”

      He should be mindful of the past as a guide to the future. History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes.

      • Enough is Enough 20.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 4:07 pm

        He has one last shot at implementing his quant idea of how New Zealand should operate.

        He will go with the party which agrees to implement it.

    • cleangreen 20.2
      27 September 2017 at 6:38 pm

      No I reckon what we heard at several meetings he was speaking at confirmed that he considers national as a trator to NZ and has damaged our credability that he said would take a change of government to begin the repair.

      I and many oythers who were at those meetings all heard his messages of real change.

      You should have been there.

      Did you know that the NZF / Winston poll that was conducted of NZ First memebers were asked who they wanted Winston to go with, – and the poll was 70% for NZ First to go with a Labour Government?

  21. Michael who failed Civics 21
    27 September 2017 at 4:20 pm

    Winston’s pre-election remarks were just that: he isn’t obliged to prop up a Labour Party that still hasn’t worked out where it stands or whom it represents. Labour’s Party Vote score last Saturday night was an amazing achievement and represents a victory for form over substance. But it needs to be a credible opposition, then a government in waiting, before it can be trusted with power again (we know what happened after 1984). While Labour appears to have started to recover its credibility, it still has a long way to go before the people should allow it to govern again.

    • ianmac 21.1
      27 September 2017 at 4:37 pm

      Yep Michael. Might have to wait a long long time for Labour to be trusted again.
      As long as 2 weeks I reckon.

    • CraigGlenEden 21.2
      27 September 2017 at 4:58 pm

      “While Labour appears to have started to recover its credibility, it still has a long way to go before the people should allow it to govern again”.

      We just had an election the people have spoken but some voices are yet to be heard they are called special votes. Once they are counted its who ever can get to 61 seats that counts. What ever you think about any Parties credibility, the people decided that they represent them by voting for them.

      People trying to argue anything other than 61seats forms a majority are quite frankly stupid. Its like arguing your team didn’t get points on the board but had all the possession and territory and therefore should have won and if only the selectors picked a different kicker they could have won. The fact is the score board will show 61+ seats win Government any thing else is called opposition.

  22. infused 22
    27 September 2017 at 4:58 pm

    You guys can take Peters. Seriously.

    Greens going with National would be good for everybody.

  23. Gabby 23
    27 September 2017 at 5:24 pm

    It’s gunna be a nats minority government fusie. They’ll be extra good and mind their ps & qs, answer politely at Qn Time, get those OIA requests actioned pdq, and in return they get the offices with flash carpet.

    • cleangreen 23.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:43 pm

      Ha Ha Gabby.

      Winston wants all government Buildings in future to have wool carpets good call there.

  24. xanthe 24
    27 September 2017 at 5:49 pm

    Just watched Winston’s press release

    One thing he really understands is just how craven and dishonest the media are in this country. personally I think that the dishonesty of our media is the biggest (immediate) problem we face as it derails and perverts the process of Democracy. for this reason I give winston a lot of credence and feel he would be a significant addition to a left government

    • cleangreen 24.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:52 pm

      Perfectly right Xanthe,

      NZ media is a politically paid voice funded by the right wing corporates for sure.

      Winston is very very intellegent and in his NZ First policies he has a plan to return the ‘public owned TVNZ/RadioNZ to a former real “public service” specifically to serve the public good again.

      And not another toxic commercial MSM system that is trying to squeeze lies and titbits to draw ‘sensations’ from’ to play a ratings game to get funding as is the case now.

  25. Wayne_2 25
    27 September 2017 at 5:52 pm

    This is quite ridiculous

    Peters attacked National in such a way simply because they were the incumbent government at the time. Naturally National they were the natural target, rather than the opposition

    It does not mean now at this stage that he would naturally incline to Labour/Greens. We are now in a different situation and Winston needs to make an objective choice taking a cold eyed view of where policies line up and governmental stability. What happened and was said before the election is I think quite irrelevant now.

    • Stuart Munro 25.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:16 pm

      Winston surely has critiques for the Left, and anyone who thinks they can second guess his Brownian motion is dreaming – but it’s hilarious that you pretend a cold-eyed and objective assessment of Gnat government would get them anywhere besides prison; or that Winston is resiling in any way from his many stinging critiques of that corrupt and backward administration.

      You will have to wait and see like everyone else, but Winston’s resurgence is likely to be complemented by a vintage obtained by trampling out the grapes of wrath.

      • Carolyn_nth 25.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 8:10 pm

        Wayne: What happened and was said before the election is I think quite irrelevant now.

        Say what? So then it doesn’t matter what candidates say during an election campaign?… Like, it means lying is fine, cos not meant to be taken seriously?

        And it’s OK to mislead voters?

        Kind of like John Key’s philosophy?

        “And as I’ve also said, on campaign trails a lot is said. What ultimately plays out when people are in office with the Congress and Senate driving things is sometimes a little bit different.

        Clearly I have a different view of democracy.

    • KJT 25.2
      27 September 2017 at 6:34 pm

      Yes. Winston needs to look at policy alignments. And that isn’t with National.

    • cleangreen 25.3
      27 September 2017 at 6:55 pm

      Wayne = National troll.

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 25.4
      27 September 2017 at 7:27 pm

      And just where do the policies line up? Education, Immigration, Trains?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 25.5
      27 September 2017 at 7:44 pm

      …except in the minds of voters and NZF members. To them, it’s far from irrelevant. Just like in 1996.

    • Robert Guyton 25.6
      27 September 2017 at 7:54 pm

      Yeah. National’s attempts to destroy Winston’s chances and reputation “should be forgotten”, eh, Wayne! I’m sure Winston will go, “Ho hum, tiddley pum, Bill’s me mate!”
      Eh!

    • Psycho Milt 25.7
      27 September 2017 at 9:54 pm

      What happened and was said before the election is I think quite irrelevant now.

      Absolutely, and after however many decades it is that Winston’s been suckering dim bulbs with this schtick it amazes me that there’s still a significant constituency for it. Whatever he said before the election was about persuading the gullible to hand over their votes, none of it means anything now there are baubles up for grabs.

  26. mary_a 26
    27 September 2017 at 6:11 pm

    Judging by Winston Peters’ conference speech, but more importantly, pleas from his supporters to make a positive change and go with Labour, then there is only one way he should be heading. That’s towards Labour, to form a Labour/Greens/NZF government. National should not be an option as a coalition partner!

    Or is Peters so full of bullshit, being deceptive, ignoring and disrespecting the views of NZF voters, while holding the country to ransom in the process, when he could make the obvious call right now, even before the specials are counted?

    • Grantoc 26.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:57 pm

      I’d say full of bullshit mary a.

      Waiting for the specials is some kind of delaying tactic. Whatever the reason remains obscure.

      The final election result after the specials are counted will be that nothing of significance changes. It will still be either a three way coalition between the greens, labour and nz first; or a two way coalition between national and nz first.

      There is no need to delay the formation of the next government.

      I reckon that national and the greens should hold serious talks now and freeze nz fist out. The greens could potentially do very well in negotiations with the nats if they allowed themselves to enter negotiations with them.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 26.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 7:23 pm

        You’re dreaming!

        • Grantoc 26.1.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 7:35 pm

          Not me

          It just needs some open minds, some creativity and the willingness to openly and seriously contemplate some unconventional options.

          Peter’s will be a destructive force whatever coalition arrangement he ends up in. Better to marginalise him now.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 26.1.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 7:41 pm

            You’re right: it would be completely ‘unconventional’ for the National Party to stop destroying everything it touches.

            • Grantoc 26.1.1.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 8:02 pm

              I’m include them in my comment.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                27 September 2017 at 8:07 pm

                …and that’s why the Greens won’t offer them confidence or supply.

                • Grantoc …
                  27 September 2017 at 9:02 pm

                  Well so much for their creativity; innovation and willingness to take a risk and go down the road less travelled.

                  If you’re right they’re demonstrating a very disappointing level of vision and strategy and are projecting themselves as rigid and inflexible – not qualities that you’d normally associate with a’progressive’ party.

                  • solkta …
                    27 September 2017 at 9:10 pm

                    I think it is more about not going down the toilet. Oh, and having integrity.

                    You haven’t answered my question: But wouldn’t Labour do much better in negotiations with National given that they have more policy in common?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    28 September 2017 at 8:23 am

                    🙄

                    There’s definitely some projection going on somewhere.

                    I think possibly a note of frustration and anger too. You’ve got no mates left, and it’s someone else’s fault.

            • infused 26.1.1.1.1.2
              28 September 2017 at 1:01 am

              Sure did a number on your party.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                28 September 2017 at 7:10 am

                🙄

                I don’t have a party: my feelings about the election result will partly depend on what happens on Oct. 12th. Whatever happens, I’m pleased with the 7% swing to the opposition.

      • solkta 26.1.2
        27 September 2017 at 7:27 pm

        But wouldn’t Labour do much better in negotiations with National given that they have more policy in common?

      • Robert Guyton 26.1.3
        27 September 2017 at 7:50 pm

        Utter nonsense, Grantoc! The specials will describe the actual numbers of seats; to negotiate before knowing those would be irresponsible. As. You. Know.

        • Grantoc 26.1.3.1
          27 September 2017 at 8:09 pm

          Thats not so. Proportionality will not change significantly after the specials have been counted. The specials will not alter the underlying dynamic of this election.

          The centre left will still need to be a coalition of three to become the government. The centre right will still need to be a coalition of two.

          There may be an extra seat or two that shift to the centre left providing a small cushion. But its not about seats at this stage of the game; its about proportionality; which won’t change much

          • One Anonymous Bloke 26.1.3.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 8:14 pm

            Malnutrition, degradation, and human rights abuses: brought to you by the Centre Right.

            • Grantoc 26.1.3.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 9:06 pm

              ???? Whats this comment got to do with anything OAB?

              Here was I thinking we could have a reasonable debate. Its a bit disappointing really.

              • Robert Guyton …
                27 September 2017 at 9:09 pm

                I don’t know – maybe he’s thinking of hungry children suffering poverty, the environment and the WINZ situation? Or a dozen other “National Party initiatives”that are too depressing to cite? OAB?

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  28 September 2017 at 7:05 am

                  I was thinking of the fact that it doesn’t matter how much time you spend trying to convince yourself you’re a “moderate” “centrist”, exploitation and cruelty exposes your true nature regardless.

          • Robert Guyton 26.1.3.1.2
            27 September 2017 at 9:05 pm

            63 is safer than 61. Winston will be happier with the higher figure.

      • Ad 26.1.4
        27 September 2017 at 8:02 pm

        Under National the Greens would get passed around like a rag doll.

        They would get killed with parliamentary procedure since they now have very few with any parliamentary experience, let alone any Cabinet experience.

        They don’t have the internal strength to form a full three-year programme needed to bind National to their promises. They are in rebuild and survive mode.

        Without a full written and signed 3 year programme, they would be eaten for supper every Cabinet meeting because they would always, always be outnumbered at Cabinet.

        Then there’s the problem with the Membership. If by some brain explosion the membership agreed to this coalition with National, the broader Greens base would fade even faster than they did in the 6 weeks since ArMetiriageddon.

        After that, Labour would rip them to shreds every time they made a little mistake.

        But that is nothing to what the media would do to them. The media would kill them for all their idealistic and untested policy naivety, reminding them every time National made a conservative or tough call that they needed to eat one rat, then another rat, then another rat, until the Greens explode with rat. Which, for the media, would make excellent television.

        After that, the Greens never come back. Ever. Done like the Maori Party, who are the object lesson in Death By Coalition.

        The commentators who are proposing the Greens negotiate with National know it will kill them.

        Best to stick with a slightly-possible coalition under Labour, with a few good solid policy wins, and rebuild for the next election.

    • cleangreen 26.2
      27 September 2017 at 7:01 pm

      Mary-a,

      Winston is playing the long game as he should.

      it is very obvoius to us all now that national trols are infiltrating both left wing blogsites with this kind of crap, whiie trying to ‘seed doubt in our minds as they are actually paid to dio.

      Dont be subverted by them as we need to keep our support for Winston alive not fold to these trolls we see invading us all.

      We dont want to spook the ‘horses of our wagon of change”

      National are showing they are now desperate and sending out all the poisonous venom to throw us off.

      • Carolyn_nth 26.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 7:32 pm

        There’s certainly a lot of these blue-green trolls about.

        Looks like some Nats and some of their supporters are getting desperate. Got used to 9 years of power and got high on it…. now comes the downer – all they have left to deal with is NZF – and the Nats are not holding all the cards.

  27. Thinkerr 27
    27 September 2017 at 9:13 pm

    It goes without saying on a site like this one that most people are nervously hoping Peters goes left.

    But, I recall in 96 he took criticism of people who said they voted for change and then he went with National again by saying that it WAS change, having a two-party government instead of just one.

    Technically, I guess he was right. And, in his shoes, if he wants to get the maximum NZF profile in the make-up of whatever government we have, then he can’t afford one iota of bias out there, or one or the other of Labour or National will know they can reduce their expectation of what they have to offer in return for NZF to anoint them.

    So, I don’t think it’s machiavellian or egotistical for Peters to behave the way he is at the moment.

    In Peter’s shoes, I would be placing a hefty weight on getting my policies into government, but also very much concerned with how long the coalition arrangement would last, after what happened before. Despite what we see on tv, it isn’t Peters vs Bill vs Jacinda, it’s Peters vs National’s Party Machine, or Peters vs Labour’s Party Machine, and Peter’s likely place at the table, every day for the next three years.

  29. Wayne_2 29
    28 September 2017 at 12:52 am

    Jacinda is as thick as two short planks, completely bereft of IQ or any other form of substance – hence her shaky grasp of any details —-be honest now —when has she ever come up with an intellectually solid argument supported by the facts and figures.

    Consider this:
    * she has never worked a real world job in her entire life
    * she has never done any serious academic study in her entire life (ffs a Bachelor of Communication Studies?)
    * she has never raised a family
    * never set up and run a successful business – not even a hot dog stand
    * her choice of partner is revealing – Clarke is a complete and utter dweeb and a knob.
    * she is completely unprincipled – she has thrown immigrants, Metiria Turei, the Green Party, under the bus, and she would be happy to do same to anyone else who she feels stands in the way of her overweening ambition to be prime minister – one she has no doubt harboured ever since her school days
    * She has been a self styled spokesman for poverty for almost a decade –but it is all virtue signalling —but where is her policy, the nuts and bolts of it???? Wait ….there is none

    Jacinda is an attention seeking, virtue signalling, Pt Chev/Grey Lynn/Ponsonby chardonnay ‘socialist’ —its all about me me me (the polar opposite of a true hero of the left and great New Zealander – Helen Kelly)

    It is ironic that the left is simply relying on her apparent physical attractiveness to ride to power – a complete betrayal of every feminist principle most here would purport to uphold.

    BTW, if she becomes PM it will be amusing seeing her try and re-negotiate the Korean FTA before Xmas —going to get out the popcorn for that one.

    • dv 29.1
      28 September 2017 at 5:02 am

      Joyce had a real world job, and ran up debt 43$m

    • One Anonymous Bloke 29.2
      28 September 2017 at 7:13 am

      😆

      Ex law commissioner loses the guts, launches personal attack on incoming Prime Minister. So much personal responsibility on display.

      Perhaps the Auditor General needs to investigate said law commissioner’s decisions: looks like a serious conflict of interest may have arisen.

      Edit: I also note Wayne Mapp’s attack on Jacinda Ardern’s family, and wonder whether this belligerent gander deserves some sauce of his own.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 29.2.1.1
          28 September 2017 at 7:28 am

          Hmm. Possibly. The disparate avatars are no indication: the vote for the Greens, otoh…

          • weka 29.2.1.1.1
            28 September 2017 at 7:19 pm

            different Wayne. I’ve asked the pink one to pick a new name, so if you see him again as just Wayne please flag a moderator’s attention.

      • tracey 29.2.2
        28 September 2017 at 4:12 pm

        It cannot be Wayne Mapp. I have no respect for Wayne Mapp, but this is not his style

        • One Anonymous Bloke 29.2.2.1
          28 September 2017 at 4:20 pm

          There have always been pejorative elements in Mapp’s remarks. Rare to see so many so strongly articulated, though.

          A question for the back end…is a name change in the offing?

          • tracey 29.2.2.1.1
            28 September 2017 at 4:58 pm

            “her choice of partner”…

            “she has never raised a family”

            Wow, after a day of not being able to get people to say “You are right Wayne, Greens must talk with National”, the facade slipped and out came a vitriolic nasty person.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 29.2.2.1.1.1
              28 September 2017 at 5:10 pm

              Most of his “arguments” usually begin with “(S)he is a…” or variations on the theme.

              We’re all “Standarnistas”, for example.

              I suspect he feels a bit freer to reveal his character now he no long sits on the Law Commission. It leads me to wonder about potential historical conflicts arising from predetermination and bias.

              • tracey …
                28 September 2017 at 5:15 pm

                I have found him very ideological, even when he was a Commissioner commenting here. He has always cherry picked what questions he answers. I do not respect him ( as you can probably tell from my comments) but I didnt know he was nasty, sexist and slightly delusional…

                Some of his criticisms of Ardern could have been the Left talking about his hero Key.

                Now Jaqui Blue, there is someone who moved from ideology and blind faith in Key to be a great appointment.

    • Stuart Munro 29.3
      28 September 2017 at 8:18 am

      Honi soit qui mal y pense.

      Stand on your record Wayne – dead kids in Afghanistan.

    • McFlock 29.4
      28 September 2017 at 3:05 pm

      I sometimes wonder whether the folks that use the expression “virtue signalling” do so in order to portray others as being as venal and grasping as they know themselves to be, or because they are so broken that they genuinely can’t conceive that someone might help others with no self-interest in mind and some sort of status elevation is the only motive they can deduce.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 29.4.1
        28 September 2017 at 4:23 pm

        Nah, he thinks it’s cool because Ann Coulter said it.

      • tracey 29.4.2
        28 September 2017 at 5:00 pm

        I suspect it is projection. Classic case of assuming others behave as you would in those circumstances.

        I honestly am gobsmacked at how nasty, petty and sexist his outburst was.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 29.4.2.1
          28 September 2017 at 5:15 pm

          Looking back, I’m glad I’ve given him such a hard time over the past few years. On occasion I’ve felt that I’ve gone too far, but it turns out my assessment was too charitable.

          …and he’s one of the “better” wingnuts.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 29.5
      28 September 2017 at 4:06 pm

      Korean FTA article 20 (2) 1 (c): cross reference to UN Charter article 1 (3), and Article 25 of the UDoHR.

      It’s already been negotiated.

      Next.

    • tracey 29.6
      28 September 2017 at 4:51 pm

      You mean like Bill English worked as a bureaucrat in Traesury and then became an MP? That kind of no “real life” experience?

    • tracey 29.7
      28 September 2017 at 5:02 pm

      Speaking of hollow images. How is your hero John key?

  30. Wayne_2 30
    28 September 2017 at 1:10 am

    1. National + NZ First = 58 seats + 9 seats = 67 seats
    2. Labour + Greens + NZ First = 45 seats + 7 seats + 9 seats = 61 seats

    Now you tell me which option is more broadly representative of the NZ voting public (1) or (2)? Which option will provide for more stable government (1) or (2)?

    Of course the option most democratic in spirit, at least, is National + NZ First. It is also by far the option most likely to provide New Zealand with stable government over the next three years.

    Please see this moderator note about your user name https://thestandard.org.nz/peters-campaigned-against-the-nats-his-party-wants-him-to-do-the-right-thing/#comment-1393144 – weka]

    • Exkiwiforces 30.1
      28 September 2017 at 1:39 am

      Look what happened the last time Winnie went with you guys and that went pear shape very quickly in 18mths. Winnie wants UTU thence why is he waiting for the special votes to come in and then we see if the boot is going to on the other foot Wayne

      It sounds to me you have forgot your history/ military tactics and you need to go back to OCS or staff collage for a refresher on military tactics old boy.

    • Macro 30.2
      28 September 2017 at 2:18 am

      Wayne – you might recall that until 23 Sept the Treasury Benches of the NZ Parliament were Nat, ACT, UF, MP. and on most occasions legislation was only passed by the barest of Majorities of 61 to 60 votes…..
      You know – as do – I that there are still 15% of the total vote still to be counted (around 200,000) – these are the people who were late starters to the polling booths. The type of people that Marama Davidson, Meteria, et al were encouraging to enrol, and vote, as they waited in the long lines outside our WINZ offices. They are unlikely to have voted for the Party that forced them into those queues .
      Over the past few elections special votes have consistently fallen to the left, and are from people that are difficult to reach in opinion polling. The likely outcome of the final count is that National will loose 1 or 2 of those 58 seats and the left will pick them up. Winston is wise to await the final call because a Lab, NZF, Green coalition of 63 to 57 (National ACT) is obviously workable . It also more closely represents the voting intentions of the NZ public who did not overwhelmingly vote for a continuation of National’s do nothing policies.
      Only around 30% of the total eligible voting public actually voted for National. (ie 46% of 67%). 70% of eligible voters either did not vote, or voted differently. Choosing not to vote does not automatically mean the “voter” wishes the status quo to continue –
      rather it indicates that none of the parties standing offer anything of significance to the voter.

      • Wayne_2 30.2.1
        28 September 2017 at 2:39 am

        I wouldn’t hold out too hope or the special votes.
        A huge number of people early voted this time round. A lot of those early votes were not doubt people voting outside of their electorate (indeed that was what I did) because it was perhaps more convenient to do so —I know a lot of people who voted near their place of work. So this time I’m guessing it is not necessarily mostly the young or the layabouts who enrol late and incline towards the left. A lot of the special votes could simply be advance votes.

        My feeling is this time round, just from talking to people, that more and more were aware they could advance vote, and took the opportunity because it was convenient to do so.

        So if the near 100 thousand increase in advance votes is dominated by people simply being more aware of advance voting outside of their electorate then that could favour National (or at least favour neither National or Labour/Greens)

        Anyway we will all know in a little less than two weeks.

        http://www.elections.org.nz/events/2017-general-election/advance-voting-statistics

        [we already have another Wayne commenting here regularly, please pick another handle. I’ve added 2 in the meantime so people can tell the difference. Thanks – weka]

    • CHCOff 30.3
      28 September 2017 at 1:56 pm

      The biggest % proportion of the vote is represented in government either way.
      Additionally, one of the two opposing major parties, has the majority voice in making up that government.

      The option that is most democratic in spirit, is winning isn’t everything and neither is losing, and one to the exclusion of the other ends up being worthless to the NZ voting public for judicial government of challenges in a society.

    • tracey 30.4
      28 September 2017 at 5:01 pm

      The most democratic in spirit is the group that can get to 61 seats. I am surprised, as a lawyer, and former Minister under MMP that this simple concept of our democracy has passed you by.

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