Open Mike 26/09/2017

115 comments on “Open Mike 26/09/2017 ”

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1. Ed 1

   26 September 2017 at 6:31 am

   The two faces of inequality in New Zealand.

   $160 000 a week

   ‘Fonterra chief executive Theo Spierings earned a total of $8.32 million in 2017, a 57 per cent jump from last year. ‘

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/97212718/fonterra-ceo-theo-spierings-paid-832m-this-year

   $ 22 a week
   ‘Poverty, illness and living on less than the minimum wage.

   The last time there was fresh produce on the table was more than two years ago.
   After covering her basic expenses, Lynlie Beazley survives on just $22 per week and sometimes she sleeps on an empty stomach.
   The west Auckland resident described herself as the “face of poverty” in the country.’

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/western-leader/96992301/poverty-illness-and-living-on-less-than-the-minimum-wage
   • Ed 1.1

     26 September 2017 at 6:33 am

     And 46% of New Zealanders voted to maintain the status quo.
     There are words for people like that.
     • McFlock 1.1.1

       26 September 2017 at 12:36 pm

       although I wonder how many of the 46% believed the promises of hospitals and halved poverty this time?
     • Brigid 1.1.2

       26 September 2017 at 12:44 pm

       46%? Where did you get that figure?
       • garibaldi 1.1.2.1

         26 September 2017 at 12:53 pm

         That’s right Brigid, Nowhere near 46% when you count the non voters and spoiled votes.
2. Dialey 2

   26 September 2017 at 6:48 am

   I read through Marie Brady’s paper on Chinese influence in NZ. Without being xenophobic, I’d be surprised if Winston went with National seeing how deeply they are funded by Chinese government front entities. But also how would he go with Labour, as there are some questionable involvements there too? I’m also surprised that there hasn’t been more journalistic enquiry, or maybe I’m not surprised.

   https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/for_website_magicweaponsanne-mariesbradyseptember2017.pdf
   • cleangreen 2.1

     26 September 2017 at 6:06 pm

     Yes good point that dailey, well thought out.
3. Graeme 3

   26 September 2017 at 6:51 am

   Strange days indeed. Michael Barnett is chief executive of the Auckland Chamber of Commerce seems to have had an epiphany on housing.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11926368

   “Denmark’s Housing for All policy is built on the belief that affordable, decent, quality housing for people from all income levels is the foundation of a healthy family and harmonious community.

   We want that too. There’s a clamour for change, for breaking out of our traditional approach, to look fresh. Let’s become a nation of home makers who collaborate on devising a made in New Zealand housing accord that respects the dream for everyone here to have a decent place to call home and to participate on an even footing as a valued member of a living, nurturing democracy.”

   Would have been nice to have said that two weeks ago Michael, or did granny hold on to it for a while.

   But still, it’s the way forward. We’ve got a housing trust in Queenstown which is working, so far. Would be nice if it could have kept it’s charitable status but that’s a call for a new government to sort out to encourage more housing options.
   • cleangreen 3.1

     26 September 2017 at 6:09 pm

     Pity Michael Barnett didn’t bark about his wishes for more ‘affordable’ housing before the election!!

     But that may have damaged national even further then.
4. Sanctuary 4

   26 September 2017 at 7:24 am

   I had a most disturbing conversation just now with a new immigrant (as in arrived since 2008) Fillipino guy I work with who basically is almost literally violently opposed to ANYONE but National being the government. He hates the idea of a coalition (coalitions are “a fucking weak clown show”) and as far as he is concerned Labour is unsetting the apple cart of of his carefully cultivated connections via church to National party people in his electorate. Now, this guy is a voting resident. It reinforced to me that a) only citizens should be able to vote, and b) citizenship shouldn’t just be a matter of timeserving then swearing an oath to the Queen, but should involve some sort of compulsory civics course – especially if you have come here from a third world shit hole run by a lunatic like the Phillipines is.

   I am still taken aback at how angry this guy is at the idea Labour might form the next government, he just didn’t seem to grasp the point of democracy.
   • Once was Tim 4.1

     26 September 2017 at 8:00 am

     Not at all surprising – but as you know already, you are opening yourself up to the xenophobic label.
     There’s been a couple of interesting MSM articles in the past about the numbers of people coming and being granted PR by country – eg UK US Aus China etc.
     What there hasn’t been is the number of applications DECLINED (by country) – i.e. even as a percentage of the number of applications received by country.
     That would show what a complete farce the points system is. It’d also be interesting to see it by year (for the past nine years).
   • Ad 4.2

     26 September 2017 at 8:57 am

     A very good signal that National has successfully captured yet another immigrant sector away from Labour. They had no other home, and National selected Filipinos – the one in New Lynn came within 1800 votes of taking a seat that Labour had held since the seat was formed after World War 2.
     • garibaldi 4.2.1

       26 September 2017 at 12:59 pm

       After 9 years of Natz I think it would be very revealing to know the voting behaviour of all our “hand picked” immigrants. 90% of the ones I know are greedy me-me’s.
   • John Anderson 4.3

     26 September 2017 at 9:06 am

     There’s something even more insidious to this

     The Electoral Commission has NO WAY of knowing whether enrolled voters are even eligible to vote.

     There is no data matching with Department of Internal Affairs, nor Immigration NZ.

     There is no requirement to declare yourself a citizen or a permanent resident on the enrolment forms.

     There are NO checks and balances to ascertain whether people who are enrolled to vote, are even eligible to do so.

     There are specific concrete examples I am aware of, where immigrants, on student visa, work visa, and tourist visas, have enrolled to vote and have done so.

     They have done this because they are aware that there is no ability for their vote to be discarded. All that is required is their name, and an address. They provide the address of a long term friend / family member and they get away with it.

     I think we should restrict voting to just citizens only. Failing that, restricting it to citizens only, and permanent residents who have been here since 1973.

     Voting is a privilege. Not a right. The fact we allow every Tom, Wing and Patel to vote without checking their credentials makes a complete mockery and a farce of our democratic rights.

     If 500,000 immigrants over the last 9 years have registered to vote, and have done so, imaging the skewing effect that would have on our proportional representation.

     There is a lack of understanding in the nuances of our political history by immigrants. The example of the filipino above, who clearly hasn’t lived in NZ under a Labour government, would have NO idea how good they actually are for NZ as a whole.

     The whole system as it is right now, is far too open for abuse. NZ is only of only FIVE countries that allow non-citizens to vote. We share this ridiculous situation with:

     Malawi
     Ecuador
     Paraguay and;
     Chile.

     Such illustrious company we keep.
     • patricia bremner 4.3.1

       26 September 2017 at 6:50 pm

       wow!! I seem to remember an article where Winston talked about this voting factor and the pensions. How it could easily be rorted.
   • Pete 4.4

     26 September 2017 at 9:35 am

     Is it fair to say to someone in the Far North “Don’t bitch about there being no employment up there, uproot yourself from your whanau, go to Christchurch, you’ll get a job there”. Is it just as fair to say to the person described should Labour form a government, “Don’t bitch, go somewhere else”? Without being called racist or xenophobic?
   • Anne 4.5

     26 September 2017 at 10:18 am

     Re- the Filipino guy. Think I might be able to help you there.

     Here’s what I understand has been going on:

     Paulo Garcia – the former Filipino Consul General and National’s candidate in New Lynn – spent the past few weeks/months travelling around the country bad mouthing Labour big time. He used his connections to the Filipino Catholic Church groups to facilitate his campaigning. Our candidate on the Shore, Romy Udanga also travelled the country trying to reassure the Filipino communities they had nothing to fear from Labour. I don’t know the outcome, but I gather things turned nasty presumably when Garcia discovered Romy was also talking to the communities.

     Born to rule authoritarian types again. Btw, Romy Uganda’s academic qualifications far outstripped the Nat. man so that wouldn’t have helped.

     https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/95869217/abortion-goes-against-his-conscience-says-nationals-new-lynn-candidate
   • Wayne 4.6

     26 September 2017 at 10:41 am

     Sanctuary,

     From your post he did not see to be against democracy, only against coalitions. It is a position that people can take, even if it is a bit unrealistic.

     Obviously he prefers National. So do 46% of the voters who voted. He might hold those views strongly. But you only have to read this site to see that many people do, at least on the internet.

     Maybe we generally expect people to be more circumspect when face to face in person.

     Personally I would like to see less invective on the internet. Just because someone has a different view does not make them evil or criminal, and there is no need to make such accusations.

     Not actually aimed at you, but I am sure you have read such posts on this and other political sites.
     • Anne 4.6.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:04 am

       Obviously he prefers National.

       He preferred National because he was brainwashed into believing National good… everybody else bad. He has no knowledge or understanding of the NZ political system and its history. Naturally the Nat government would like to keep it that way.

       If we are to have all these immigrants coming into the country then it is incumbent on the government of the day to introduce a civics course they must attend before being granted NZ citizenship. Of course we know that’s the last thing National will agree to because the more ignorant they remain the better for National eh?

       We can’t have these immigrants ‘getting learned’ can we. They might get uppity and start voting for the Labour Party. (sarc)
       • John Anderson 4.6.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 11:08 am

         Anne – you don’t need to be a citizen to vote. Hell, you don’t even need to be a resident given the lack of checks and balances in place to determine a voters eligibility.
         • Anne 4.6.1.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 11:25 am

           Thanks for the correction. You’re right.

           It is wrong that many thousands of individuals in this country are given the same voting rights as NZ citizens when half of them can’t even speak the language let alone have any idea what they’re voting for. They are screwing and skewering out election outcomes and that is not acceptable.They should have to attend a civics course at the least before being allowed on the electoral roll. Once they understand our political system they become eligible to vote in our elections.

           On this matter alone it is essential NZ First go with Labour so that the issue will be dealt with once and for all. National might pay lip service to doing something about it, but they never will because it is not in their interest to do anything.
           • John Anderson 4.6.1.1.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 11:37 am

             To be honest, I don’t think many politicians are even aware that this rort is taking place.

             Like I said, there is nothing in place for the Electoral Commission to ascertain an enrolled voters eligibility. It’s why there are foreign students enrolling to vote (and are voting) despite not being eligible to do so.

             It’s because they know that the Electoral Commission don’t have any way of knowing whether they are enrolling correctly eligible people.

             We run an honesty system when it comes to voting rights in this country.

             It’s completely bizarre.
       • Wayne 4.6.1.2

         26 September 2017 at 3:34 pm

         Anne,

         At least for citizenship applications there is a kind of civics course that covers the democracy and the rule of law. However, it is a reasonable point that it should also apply to permanent residency, given that permanent residents can vote after 12 months.

         Which on international terms is very generous. Maybe 3 year PR would be better to qualify for the vote.
         • John Anderson 4.6.1.2.1

           26 September 2017 at 3:37 pm

           The question is, why should permanent residents get the right to vote after 12 months?

           Surely an equivalent length of time to that required to live in NZ before applying for citizenship should be apropos?
           • Anne 4.6.1.2.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 4:41 pm

             I agree with you John Anderson @4.6.1.2.1
             The 12 month period before becoming eligible to vote goes back many decades to a time when 90% of our immigrants came from English speaking nations with democratically elected governments similar to our own.

             However, the scenario has dramatically changed in the past 10 years and it is imperative the law applying to voting rights is accordingly amended. Your suggestion they be required to have gained eligibility for citizenship before they can vote in NZ is the obvious answer.
     • John Anderson 4.6.2

       26 September 2017 at 11:07 am

       The point is, Wayne, is that people who are here since 2008, and come from foreign cultures, generally have a mindset that the “governing power” is what let them into the country, and so they “reward” them for doing so.

       No thought is given to the actual realities of the effect that governing power has on the long term. In the case of National, it is bereft of long term ideas. Muldoon was the last National MP that was able to think long term. We didn’t get a long term government after him, until 2000 when Labour set up Kiwibank, Kiwisaver and the NZ superannuation fund

       I haven’t seen any long term policies enacted by National. All their policies and laws since 2008 have been short termist, insular, and never focused on the long term.

       Businesses can get away with 2 – 5 year short term thinking. Governments should be focused on 20 years out, with minor meddling when required on short term policy settings.

       As for the 46% – given that the Electoral Commission allows anyone to register, without any checks and balances in place to determine said eligbility, are you surprised we have foreign students registering to vote? Nothing is stopping them as they know the Electoral Commission have no way of knowing the visa status of people who enrol. It’s all done on an honesty basis, and to be honest, honesty seems to be in short supply when it comes to people who are “backing bill”
       • Brigid 4.6.2.1

         26 September 2017 at 12:54 pm

         Which is why National opened the gates and let every Tom, Wing and Patel in.
         Just wondered who Peter Theil voted for. 🙂
         • Andre 4.6.2.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 1:10 pm

           Be fair. At least Thiel took out citizenship, even though he’s barely even visited us for a few brief moments.
         • Anne 4.6.2.1.2

           26 September 2017 at 4:48 pm

           Just wondered who Peter Theil voted for.

           Yep. I wondered that too. Guess he was the voter which give ACT their 0.1 % average – he and Seymour, Prebble and a handful of underlings.
   • Andre 4.7

     26 September 2017 at 11:09 am

     Sanc, how does it feel to be singing from the same page as David Farrar?

     http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/07/nz_unusual_in_allowing_non_citizens_to_vote.html

     It fucks with my head big time, that’s for sure.
     • John Anderson 4.7.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:14 am

       Farrar isn’t wrong.

       Most countries reserve voting as a privilege, not a right.

       I agree with the franchise. Just not to every man and his bastard dog.

       If you want to vote, become a citizen. Prove your allegiance.

       Permanent residency is not allegiance. Nor is being able to rort the electoral system knowing that the Electoral Commission have no way of knowing whether people who are registering to vote even have the right to.

       They don’t even ask if you’re a permanent resident or a citizen ffs.

       I registered a fake person last night. Signed it, sent it through. I have no doubt that new person will end up on the electoral roll.
       • Rosemary McDonald 4.7.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 12:04 pm

         Does Winston know this???

         You’d think he’d be all over it like the proverbial…
         • Once was Tim 4.7.1.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 4:04 pm

           I think Winston knows this all too well.
           I don’t agree with him on simplistic solutions regarding immigration, but the situation – especially during the Gnat’s reign has caused real problems for all to see.
       • Union city greens 4.7.1.2

         26 September 2017 at 12:57 pm

         Bollocks to residents having to prove allegience. Get the lazy bum stay at home citizen voters to prove it first by participating in their own democracy.

         As a permanent resident for nigh on 20 years I’m no more a kiwi now than I was when I got off the plane, but as a law abiding tax payer ever since, it would be a travesty to remove my voting rights.
         • Andre 4.7.1.2.1

           26 September 2017 at 1:05 pm

           The travesty was giving you voting rights without requiring you become a citizen first. As I’m fairly sure whatever other countries you’re a citizen of require. I was permanent resident here for around 15 years and voted in two elections before becoming a citizen and it certainly felt weird to me.
           • Union city greens 4.7.1.2.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 1:17 pm

             Given the right, that’s correct.
             It may be the case for new residents in the future, or the eligibility period increased, but it would I’m sure it’s never going to be taken away from me, so moot.
             But let us not get all xenophobic just because of national’s imported blue dragons. That’s a different argument altogether.
             • Andre …

               26 September 2017 at 1:33 pm

               Just out of curiosity if it came down to it, would there be a downside to you of becoming an NZ citizen? Such as having to give up your citizenship of another country or worldwide tax or pension implications? There weren’t any in my case since my other nationality is US and I would never have any interest in taking any kind of position where that dual nationality might raise eyebrows.
               • Union city greens …

                 26 September 2017 at 1:47 pm

                 I’ve no real desire to be citizen, even though I meet the current criteria as set out by immigration, but sure the cost of applying is a barrier.

                 Perhaps it should be automatic, or at least the option given, after a set period of law abiding spent time .
     • patricia bremner 4.7.2

       26 September 2017 at 12:20 pm

       Even David can’t be wrong all the time, just 95% of it.
       • The Fairy Godmother 4.7.2.1

         26 September 2017 at 1:57 pm

         A broken clock is right two times a day.
         • McFlock 4.7.2.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 2:00 pm

           unless it’s digital 🙂
   • cleangreen 4.8

     26 September 2017 at 6:13 pm

     Thanks for sharing this at post 4 with us sanctuary much appreciated.

     So it appears that these immigrants are schooled in immigration matters by this government before?

     When I immigrated to canada many years ago we were sent to an ‘induction’ course’ as we arrived there.
5. bwaghorn 5

   26 September 2017 at 8:09 am

   Labour /greens should stay away from anything more than c and f from nzf , at only a 1 to at best 3 seat majority the risk is too high of one of the loons in nzf bring down the house , and labour will be the one blamed ,
   • weka 5.1

     26 September 2017 at 10:16 am

     Why would Labour be blamed for NZF waka jumpers?
     • bwaghorn 5.1.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:30 am

       if coalition collapsed most would blame the biggest party imho
       • weka 5.1.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 12:10 pm

         Not so sure about that. Waka jumpers are not well regarded in NZ. If the coalition collapsed because NZF as a party pulled out, maybe. But a couple of MPs jumping to National? I think they’re be scorned, not Labour.
   • alwyn 5.2

     26 September 2017 at 12:45 pm

     Perhaps you can explain how you are going to bring this scenario about.
     Who is going to be able to persuade Winston to provide C & S to a Labour Green Government when he gets nothing at all from them? Even the Green Party who have prostituted themselves to Labour aren’t willing to do such a thing.
     Even if Winston was willing to do so his party members will not be at all happy.
     They are far more likely to jump- ship and support National than they are to stay with Winston First.
     • bwaghorn 5.2.1

       26 September 2017 at 2:06 pm

       i’m of the fuck im the nats can have him mindset ,in saying that winston may want it as he could back policy he likes from both sides that way while insureing stable gov .
       a three way is too unstable , when they only just get enough seats, of course a lab nzf with greens in c and s is the other mix and would surely be on more than one parties mind .
       • alwyn 5.2.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 2:38 pm

         “of course a lab nzf with greens in c and s is the other mix and would surely be on more than one parties mind .”

         That might be true but I don’t think that the Greens are one of the parties considering it. From a James Shaw interview.
         “The Green Party would be unlikely to sign up to that kind of deal,” he told The AM Show on Monday. “We are in politics in order to make change.”
         http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/greens-unlikely-to-back-labour-nz-first-from-outside-the-tent.html

         He sounded a little more obliging a couple of days ago but I think he realised what a hole he was digging and what it would enable Winston to demand.
6. Rosemary McDonald 6

   26 September 2017 at 8:22 am

   Well…another typical Waikato spring morning. There was a bit of rain overnight, not that its needed as there’s green, green, green as far as the eye can see. Grass is growing faster than the cows could possibly eat it so why the fuck has the neighbouring dairy farmer (~1000 cows) got his irrigation boom going full blast????

   They had the chopper in last week spreading some kind of fertiliser, so I guess they’re making sure that all of it is properly sluiced off and into the Waipa River, just over the fence from the boom.

   When you think about it…no surprise that these people are stupid enough to think the CEO of their company is worth paying $4000 per hour.

   Think about that next time some whining dairy farmer gets on the radio claiming poverty.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/country/340179/farmers-batten-down-their-hatches-post-election
   • Hongi Ika 6.1

     26 September 2017 at 8:39 am

     The only reason they are crying poverty is their debt levels are so high ?
     • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1

       26 September 2017 at 8:47 am

       Could very well be.

       But whose fault is that?

       We’re talking about a group who flag wave for the right…the parties of personal responsibility and all that.
     • JC 6.1.2

       26 September 2017 at 12:37 pm

       And Bankrupt!

       “Today, agriculture in New Zealand is bankrupt, as it was in 1985. Then it was an economic failure, particularly in the sheep industry. The sector was propped up by $1.2 billion of taxpayer funding under the Supplementary Minimum Price regime, most of it paid out in just two years to 1984. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $4b today.

       Rod Oram explains why here:

       https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/25/49857/rod-oram-farmings-bankrupt-time-for-natural-capital
   • bwaghorn 6.2

     26 September 2017 at 11:33 am

     is it a big one or a little one . if it’s little ish it’s most likely spreading the cowshed waste , which has pretty strict regs you will find .
     • Rosemary McDonald 6.2.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:42 am

       No…its water. Not even a hint of shit. Besides, the farm has a newish pond for the cowshed waste and I’m pretty sure the regs wouldn’t allow discharge in any fashion so close to the river.

       However, this is the Waikato, where the regulations are loosely enforced.
       • beatie 6.2.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 7:44 pm

         Meanwhile down here on the West Coast this shit is happening,
         • Rosemary McDonald 6.2.1.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 9:32 pm

           beatie….thanks for the link and thank goodness the fb page is open so those of us who don’t do facebook can read the story.

           i have no doubt at all that this happened the way described.
           I have encountered the exact same response from farmers and farm workers (I have a theory about required IQ levels for farm workers), albeit not over contamination of waterways.

           A brave stand, and wise to take photos…but consider perhaps a go pro set up, discretely mounted, so you can record visual and sound.

           I too got the line from the Regional Council and CAA that photos must be taken to properly identify the offender and any vehicle being used in commission of the offense. Back 7 years ago I’d have to trespass on the cocky’s land to photgraph identification marks….noticed just last week that these craft now have the ID numbers prominently displayed on the side of the aircraft. Makes my job much easier and marks a small but significant advance for us.

           I know the Mokihinui, have caught fish at the river mouth and have relatives in the area.

           Thanks to CleanUpOurWaterways for the commitment.

           kia kaha.
           • beatie 6.2.1.1.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 9:59 pm

             Unfortunately down here the Regional Council are a big part of the problem. Comprised of farmers and gold miners who police themselves and their cronies by way of wet bus-ticket fines and penalties (if any)
7. marty mars 7

   26 September 2017 at 8:55 am

   When you live long enouh you see it all. I’ve seen political parties born grow and die like the MP . I’ve heard every political excuse out.

   For me the greens dropped the ball. I don’t agree that MT outing herself was some massive thing. She wanted out she is out. The greens have lost support – no great win there. The green supporters underminned their only hope labour – not smart imo. The greens will never go into talks with the gnats – must keep the purity pure. Over it. Some will say you weren’t a proper green anyway and that is true. I’m sick of bullshit for sure.
8. Ad 8

   26 September 2017 at 8:55 am

   New Zealand is well overdue for a new political party to form.

   The Greens have a chance to recover, but also the chance to die at .9% away from parliamentary death. A coalition with either government coalition will probably kill them because their membership tends to wilt at the first sign of compromise.

   Labour has lost much of its base within the immigrant community and among core urban seats in Auckland. They have lost the massive Chinese community which is over 25% of some electorates and over 20% in others.

   United is dead.

   The Maori Party: weeping at its tangi.

   Act: put a fork in it.

   Mana: splat.

   Democrats: couldn’t fill a phonebox.

   Conservative Party: unressurectable

   That’s a reasonable-scale sized democratic wreckage for one election.

   National stand astride our political world – renewed, refreshed, well funded, achieving little, delivering the small state.

   TOP may well be the one that makes it – the y have all the Green policies and more, but they have the willingness to coalition with whomever will get the most of those policies in.

   That doesn’t mean some evil will beset us like the Alternative for Germany people.

   It means New Zealand is well overdue for a new political party to form that will guide that rag-tag battlefleet of waifs and strays and turn it into something new and strong.
   • Carolyn_nth 8.1

     26 September 2017 at 9:14 am

     Hahahaha – TOP makes it over the Greens? Way to let your bias get in the way of logic.

     The GP is a well organised party – with a philosophy of process and substance, and world wide connections.

     TOP is a one man’s vanity project.
     • Ad 8.1.1

       26 September 2017 at 9:18 am

       That kind of arrogance in the face of a really poor result will see the Greens go the same was as the other parties listed. No political party is immortal, and like companies, they either grow safely, or they stagnate and die.
     • ianmac 8.1.2

       26 September 2017 at 9:42 am

       We collectively voted for change. I did. You did.
       So how come we deride the ideas espoused by TOP?
       We should be a fertile ground for ideas to improve our lot rather than become National-like in a stolid hanging on to the status quo.
       (I have it on good authority that the Labour tax working group have Guaranteed Universal Income on their consideration list.)
       • weka 8.1.2.1

         26 September 2017 at 10:14 am

         Some of Morgan’s ideas are harmful. When I see pro TOP people engaging meaningfully on that I’ll be more willing to talk about the good ideas that have.

         Btw would you be ok with TOP supporting National over L/G if they’d got 5%?
         • garibaldi 8.1.2.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 1:14 pm

           Leave the Green movement alone all you nay sayers. It is a far stronger movement than you can write off just like that. Look to our founding principles and realize there will always be support if there is no betrayal.
           We will not become centrists, we will not go into coalition with hard line free market Capitalists.
           • weka 8.1.2.1.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 1:45 pm

             “Look to our founding principles and realize there will always be support if there is no betrayal.”

             This.
             • In Vino …

               26 September 2017 at 4:05 pm

               Agreed
         • ianmac 8.1.2.1.2

           26 September 2017 at 2:08 pm

           “Some of Morgan’s ideas are harmful.” That is like saying that the ideas of any or all parties are “harmful.” That is no way to start a discussion.
           I did not vote for TOP but I see the future as being vitally in need of some very different ways of managing society. But those new ideas will not get a hearing if we deny them before they are uttered. Some see the outspoken Morganisms as denial of any reasoned ideas. Not so.
     • Union city greens 8.1.3

       26 September 2017 at 9:51 am

       Morgan was quoted yesterday as saying he’d be in negotiating with national already had they got 5%. Hope that isn’t lost on the idiot fringe on the left who were seduced by his moustache and fake left policies.

       When AD says a new party needs to form, the by product of his apparent on going sustained attack on the greens, is to create a new coalition partner for the nasty party.

       Nice try, but no thanks, comrade Plastic.
       • tc 8.1.3.1

         26 September 2017 at 10:27 am

         He never fooled me, zero sincerity and his past actions on Property speculation, selling businesses etc is all you needed to extrapolate where he would end up.
         • Union city greens 8.1.3.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 10:39 am

           Two ticks to that
           • weka 8.1.3.1.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 1:46 pm

             Heh.
     • Carolyn_nth 8.1.4

       26 September 2017 at 9:57 am

       I suspect the Maori Party will reform.

       I’m not talking about ideas so much, as organisational structures. They are difficult to build, and will not be easily wiped away with one election – look at NZF – sat one term out, but kept working away from the main arena.

       The Greens have a well-organised system, strong membership…. and they are still in the House. They they are not going anywhere soon.

       There is strong support among some Maori for the Mp. It’s not going to die that quickly.

       ACT has been slowly dying.

       There is room for new parties, but they require a significant operating group, a well worked out philosophy, and a sense of relevance.

       We are in a time of change. All 4 main parties in the current mix will be undergoing some change. People are done with the neoliberal philosophy, especially many of the young.

       TOP belongs to the neoliberal wave when guys with money have tried to be a dominant force in politics. Change is coming.

       There may be a place for a capitalist environmental party – by the way, Green politics does lean left. It includes environmentalism (sometimes called ecological wisdom), social justice, anti-violence, and grass roots democracy.

       That is not the more narrow, caring capitalist environmentalism of TOP. It does lean to the right in it’s MO and underlying principles.

       Green parties around the world embrace social democracy and lean left.

       To me green left is the way forward for the future.

       But time will tell – my feeling is TOP, and the Internet Party (and Mana) will slowly die – they do not have the organisational or community involvement.

       The Mp and the GP will continue, but may be somewhat reshaped. As will Labour and the Nats.

       There is room for a strong left wing party, and a strong right wing one. They may develop over the next few years – but they will be reformations of some remnants of past parties – Alliance, Conservatives, maybe blue-environmentalists (lets not call them blue-greens as political greens are about more than just the environment).
       • tc 8.1.4.1

         26 September 2017 at 10:32 am

         The maori party can come back as a proper socialist party, nobody else is and it’s a natural fit to overall benefit all of Maoridom.

         IMO nothing less than that will appease their base who punished them over state house sales, supporting the gutting of NZ by voting with nact and having arrogant leaders like Flavell/Fox.
         • marty mars 8.1.4.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 12:07 pm

           Yep divide and conquer. Possibly they may have found their Mana again. But labour had some sorting out to do and they did it. Tough times ahead for many of us.
       • Ad 8.1.4.2

         26 September 2017 at 11:47 am

         I have pretty mixed feelings about Labour getting all the Maori seats.
         Few of Labour’s Maori MPs are strong politicians with the capacity to bang the table and get great dividends for Maori.

         I have no idea if TOP will rise of fail, but your instinct about a capitalist environmental party is a possibility.

         II think the National capture of the Chinese vote will become more powerful than the Labour capture of the Maori vote. But therein is also the potential for more ethnically-based splinter parties to emerge out of Auckland.
   • marty mars 8.2

     26 September 2017 at 9:34 am

     A new political party? ffs this fantasy is popular. Seems to be the go to strategy for everyone without any actual ideas.

     And Māori. Does make sense for us and so that is what will happen.
   • greywarshark 8.3

     26 September 2017 at 9:49 am

     Ad
     It appears that we need a dynamic leader that sounds rather like Hitler? Looking at the old but not totally out-dated Marien’s Guide to Public Policy Proposers you appear to be a Primitive Populist with the view that we are dominated by pointy-headed pseudo-intellectuals with proposal is to throw out briefcases and restore common sense.

     But your solution is totally pragmatic based on what will win government power, which is in parallel with National. Is there no other way that you can conceive that would serve the half of NZ that wants thoughtful change that would better most of the people and the environment?
     • Ad 8.3.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:50 am

       Charisma should not be mistaken for a sad slippery-slope argument towards totalitarianism. It’s a necessary element for any successful movement, full stop.

       I am not currently in the mood for idealism while the coalition is formed, because that is precisely the time where really tough compromises are formed into deals to run an actual country. We campaign in poetry, we govern in prose.
       • In Vino 8.3.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 4:09 pm

         We campaign in poetry, we govern in broken English.
   • mauī 8.4

     26 September 2017 at 10:06 am

     Well said Ad, TOP are a likely winner if they stick around and as politics as we know it changes.
   • Andre 8.5

     26 September 2017 at 10:07 am

     For TOP to make it there’s a few things that will need to change.

     Morgan needs to understand that gratuitous offensiveness as a political strategy only has a chance if it’s pandering to some base impulses, and the audience you’re seeking is strongly driven by those base impulses. Being gratuitously offensive about murdering moggies or “lipstick on a pig” comments aren’t going to attract the audience he’s seeking.

     TOP needs to have a serious think about their CCT and whether that’s a policy that’s important enough to them that they’re willing to die in a ditch for it. It never really got publicity or critiqued, outside of “they want to tax people to live in their own homes”. But it’s got many other serious flaws that never got examined at all. If TOP ever really looks like it might break 5%, it will be torn to shreds over the CCT. It will certainly instantly put off any blue-green that takes a close look at it and starts thinking through the implications.
     • Ad 8.5.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:51 am

       Agree. Anything that smells anti-female will die fast and hard in this media environment.

       Its still quite possible that TOP will fold since it depends on the funding of one person.
   • DH 8.6

     26 September 2017 at 10:34 am

     If anyone wants to emulate Winston Peters they need only start a “Renters and Home Buyers Party”. The nation has become divided on housing and there’s a big gap in the market for a party that puts renters and first home buyers first. You could count on at least 15% of the vote.
   • Adrian 8.7

     26 September 2017 at 11:01 am

     The newish Chinese immigrants by and large I imagine do not want immigration curbs, that’s why all the Chinese Commmunist Government money is going to the Nats.
     If you think all those big donations from Chinese Government part owned ” NZ” companies are coming out of individuals own pockets you are dreaming.
     And it is not racism when you are at war. We should be fighting for our survival as an independent country, but only one country knows we are in a war.
     Guns have been replaced by money and influence.
9. gsays 9

   26 September 2017 at 9:33 am

   I speculate that the current ‘take a knee’ actions in US nfl could catch on and be a clarion call across the nation.
   As a protest against: institutional racism, growing inequality, the president….

   On my OE, I went to a rodeo in Phoenix, Arizona.
   This was at the time of Bush War One, early ’90’s.
   A white stallion entered the arena with the rider bearing the stars and stripes.
   After a short propaganda monologue lauding American might, the national anthem started (akin to the scene in borat).
   We were young, idealistic and refused to stand.
   Our host was mortified, and we left early.
   On the way out he essentially said ‘I appreciate your right to protest, but a rodeo isn’t the place to express it’.
   • BM 9.1

     26 September 2017 at 9:38 am

     How embarrassing for your host.

     Typical left winger though, absolutely no situational awareness and the social graces of an angry drunk who’s shit themselves.

     You were lucky you weren’t beaten within an inch of your life, hopefully, you’ve matured and have a bit more nous.
     • Psycho Milt 9.1.1

       26 September 2017 at 11:19 am

       I remember the intense fury of my young civilian contractor colleagues at a US Army base at the news that Aussie soldiers by the pool had remained seated when the bugle for the flag ceremony was blowing, instead of standing to attention. They looked on me as a near-enough Australian so wanted me to tell them what was up wtih those guys who were lucky they didn’t get physically assaulted. It wasn’t really possible to explain the general disdain for nationalistic bullshit felt in our part of the world without giving offence, so I just pointed out I wouldn’t stand to attention for my own country’s flag, let alone someone else’s. They were horrified, but did accept from that point that antipodeans are unpatriotic barbarians who don’t stand to attention if they have a choice about it, so all’s well that ends well…
       • BM 9.1.1.1

         26 September 2017 at 11:32 am

         I remember a few builder mates of mine telling me of the time they went over to the states to watch the indie 500 and a bit of the Nascar series.

         The anthem came on, everyone stood except the kiwis, not because they had a political agenda but because they weren’t American.

         It was soon made clear that you better be standing and singing with pride otherwise you will be shot.

         It’s a different world over there and it pays to be aware of the cultural differences.

         One of the guys got arrested as a vagrant in one of the small towns because he was wearing work shorts and jandals, the Sheriff was all
         “I don’t care where you’re from boy, you’re in America now, don’t dress like a god damn hobo!”
         • Psycho Milt 9.1.1.1.1

           26 September 2017 at 12:51 pm

           It’s a different world over there and it pays to be aware of the cultural differences.

           Oh, sure – same as how you don’t want to be wearing a tank top and shorts showing off your tattoos and body piercings in Kuwait. You don’t pretend to be a conservative out of politeness, but because the locals are likely to get violent if you don’t. For all its self-proclaimed love of individual freedom, American culture is little different from other countries where the population consists of religious conservatives – authoritarian to a high degree.
           • garibaldi 9.1.1.1.1.1

             26 September 2017 at 1:19 pm

             So BM are you quite happy for this Country to keep going the American way ? Of course you are, you vote National.
     • Robert Guyton 9.1.2

       26 September 2017 at 1:47 pm

       “beaten within an inch of your life”
       By whom, typical right wingers?
       For not standing up?
       BM, your thinking is rotten.
   • Cinny 9.2

     26 September 2017 at 12:29 pm

     USA has been indoctrinating and glamorising the military into sports and public events via their national anthem etc for a very long time. Thrilled we don’t do that here.

     In times of conflict, when the mainstream news media already tend to pound the drums of war, having sports audiences repeatedly exposed to pro-military messaging tilts the playing field further still.
10. Sparky 10

    26 September 2017 at 9:52 am

    For anyone who still thinks Canada is a shining example of the liberal left:

    https://www.rt.com/news/404570-chelsea-manning-canada-ban/
    • greywarshark 10.1

      26 September 2017 at 11:25 am

      Well it is a hard one for a border post, more for the government to handle and I see that she is going to go to government.

      I also see that Harvard University has cancelled a fellowship because she is classed as a felon. They would not want to harm their brand. And they seem to be the leader in teaching the pure theories of neo lib economics and the free market to politicians and aspiring leaders. Wouldn’t want to besmirch the image.
11. greywarshark 11

    26 September 2017 at 10:13 am

    Wow interesting juxtaposition of weka and Anthony R posts.

    Also interesting is this Standford University course on how to hone your mind and know what you really want to do and get a feeling of achievement. Obviously for most of us we don’t have a feeling of achievement. A new way of working and thinking and visualising the possible and the desirable is needed.

    It’s a long read, perhaps to break up into available time spots. If you find something good that applies to you and helps tell us all about it.
    I would like to know and learn from anyone else. And I think many of us are gagging for ideas of how to be, feel more effective.
    https://www.fastcompany.com/3044043/stanfords-most-popular-class-isnt-computer-science-its-something-much-m
12. Sparky 12

    26 September 2017 at 10:20 am

    I don’t see it happening. Politics in NZ are far too extreme and polarised.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      26 September 2017 at 10:25 am

      Polarised between people who are duped by the National Party’s lies, and people who aren’t.
13. Andre 13

    26 September 2017 at 11:19 am

    The Weiner gets 21 months in the slammer for sexting a minor. Can we add on 50 years for his contribution to delivering us T. Rump (officially known as Tyrannosaurus Arse)? Please?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/25/politics/anthony-weiner-sentencing/index.html
14. Pete 14

    26 September 2017 at 11:25 am

    Going out to mow the lawn. Might have to remove dog crap.So I practised first by reading this:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926482
    • ianmac 14.1

      26 September 2017 at 11:58 am

      I suspect that Hoskings is increasingly deranged. Seriously. His outpourings are getting hysterical. The Media no doubt need his style but that says more about the desperation of the Media.
    • halfcrown 14.2

      26 September 2017 at 1:12 pm

      Ha Ha fucking Ha, I really really like that. Excellent.
15. Peter 15

    26 September 2017 at 1:09 pm

    Strategic Voting – serious question.

    Would there be any advantage in the Greens and Labour respectively asking their supporters to give their party vote to their party but their electoral vote to one specified candidate from one of the two parties. E.g. In Nelson Labour voters give their party vote to Labour but their candidate vote to the Green candidate.

    What are the pros and cons?
    • Andre 15.1

      26 September 2017 at 1:14 pm

      There’s only a benefit if there’s a specific candidate you want to keep out (that isn’t certain to get in on a list) and a split left vote might let that candidate win. Such as the hairdo from Ohariu. Or Paulo Garcia in New Lynn.
      • gsays 15.1.1

        26 September 2017 at 4:32 pm

        In Nelson another pro would be the greens getting an electorate and all the money and resources and profile that go with it.

        I have been wondering why an ‘accommodation’ wasn’t made in Nelson.
    • McFlock 15.2

      26 September 2017 at 1:23 pm

      In addition to the niche pro Andre mentioned, the con is that it gets portrayed as a hypocritical dirty deal that ends up doing more damage to the overall party vote than the advantage of beating candidate T.

      E.g. you stop ACT getting an orphan MP, but lose 2% between greens and lab, which equals 2 or 3 labgrn list mps. Not much point to it.
      • Peter 15.2.1

        26 September 2017 at 1:50 pm

        OK, so if you accept that the left vote gets split amongst Green and Labour the best way forward is to get National voters to change sides?
        • McFlock 15.2.1.1

          26 September 2017 at 1:58 pm

          Are we still talking about electorate MPs in rotten boroughs?

          The best way is to beat the national patsy hands down.
          the second best way is to make the number of patsies irrelevant to the outcome of the election, such as this time (apparently). The nats will knife their patsies themselves.

          The absolute worst way is to horse-trade electorate fights between parties – nobody likes being treated like a bargaining chip, and it looks as corrupt as the nats are.
    • Matiri 15.3

      26 September 2017 at 3:48 pm

      I believe the Green Party had a bequest that was conditional on them standing a candidate that took a serious tilt at unseating Nick Smith, and that candidate was Matt Lawrey.
16. popexplosion 16

    26 September 2017 at 2:20 pm

    Survivor island. Key gone, Turei, Dunne, Farvel, Little. Whose left? Peters and Shaw.

    Go figure, the only two left National thinks it could work with. No wonder Boag, Hooten think only the one party, with the largest vote should rule, all others bow down. Media Q&A PANEL backed up this myth, largest party must rule.

    Welcome to one party MMP NATION. Wholely supported by the supine NZ MEDIA.

    [lprent: Answer https://thestandard.org.nz/metiria-tureis-legacy/#comment-1392256

    BTW: I guess that most people around here values your opinion about as much as I do. I deleted 8 comments before I found one that anyone had actually commented on. ]
    • patricia bremner 16.1

      26 September 2017 at 7:33 pm

      Little isn’t gone!!!
17. Eco maori 17

    26 September 2017 at 3:06 pm

    Now let’s not be to hard on Theo of fonterra because I’m sure he’s not a neo liberal first point is milk in schools next there factory staff get good money and it’s a 20 billion dollar any were else and he would be on 50 million and the fonterra setup makes it a price maker and not a price taker nuff said
    • greywarshark 17.1

      26 September 2017 at 3:23 pm

      Points taken. But whether Fonterra is a price maker or taker and does some good things to be well regarded, it is excessive money for the CEO and this trend is an international one as you say. And further the criticism of putting most of our biccies in one churn is that Fonterra is in the commodity market with its skim milk, and we definitely are not price makers in that market.
18. greywarshark 18

    26 September 2017 at 3:32 pm

    I like Gordon Campbell’s whimsical observations about Joyce over on Scoop.
    This is how he starts. Amusing.
    
    Gordon Campbell: PPPs are Steven Joyce’s new imaginary friend
    Like the kid in that Bruce Willis movie who could see dead people, Finance Minister Steven Joyce can see stuff (like holes in Labour budgets) that no-one else can see. So maybe it shouldn’t be all that surprising that Joyce can also see ‘efficiencies’ …More»
19. Eco maori 19

    26 September 2017 at 9:31 pm

    The problem to solve is how does one process millions of ltr of milk at peak production before it turns to yogurt one can not accurately forecast the weather so one can not accurately forecast peak production so during peak production some milk gets turned into milk powder.
    Because we have a seasonal based Dairy system which is timed for peak grass production we have times when we have a shit load of milk .
    Unlike other countries that feed all there cows rations in a feed bin. So they have a flat line milk supply which is easy to plan for.
    But those systems are more vulnerable to price fluctuations I.E they go tits up when the milk price drops to much .
    Our grass based system are more resilient to price fluctuations and the grass based milk is better nutritional and that is the reason why the REST of the World is envious of our Dairy industry Ka Pai

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