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Rachel Maddow on Donald Trump’s campaign strategy

Written By: - Date published: 9:06 am, March 14th, 2016 - 97 comments
Categories: us politics - Tags: ,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuTe_sAI-UQ

97 comments on “Rachel Maddow on Donald Trump’s campaign strategy ”

  1. Colonial Viper 1

    Violence…as opposed to Hilary Clinton who destroyed entire countries, leaving them as failed states?

  2. Ad 2

    God Maddow is good.

    • mickysavage 2.1

      Yep sharp, simple language, clear description of events based on facts.

      Interesting that Trump also speaks sharply and simply. He has a problem however that pretty well everything he says is not based on facts.

      • AmaKiwi 2.1.1

        “Trump also speaks sharply and simply. He has a problem however that pretty well everything he says is not based on facts.”

        No, the problem is violence. If we don’t like what they say, we can punch them in the face, send them out on a stretcher, beat the crap out them so they learn their lesson.

        Trump says violence should replace the rule of law.

        Trumps facts are irrelevant. His violence is his madness.

    • Kevin 2.2

      Yeah, she is good at blaming the victim. Her assertions are akin to blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt. That is where Rachel Maddow sits.

  3. Lucy 3

    Gee colonial Viper you really don’t like lefties! Hilary ran a number of lines on Libya and Syria and she destroyed entire countries? She did not have go, no go say that was Obama’s and he will have that as a legacy not Hilary. Trump is a coward who if he gets into the White House will be bad for the world, his use of violence speech to incite violence in his supporters is worrying as this does not bode well when in control of a large well armed defense force.

    • One Two 3.1

      American society, economy and politics have broken, but not because of the GOP

      “Bad for the world”……Like it’s been going great otherwise

      • The GOP have been in control of both houses and the presidency for much of the last 40 years. If it’s not their fault, who’s fault is it?

        • vto 3.1.1.1

          Good question. Look forward to the answer.

        • Phil 3.1.1.2

          The GOP have been in control of both houses and the presidency for much of the last 40 years.

          You are very bad at math. Over the last 40 years (from 1977 to 2016)…

          Control of the house: 18 years under republican control, 22 under democrat
          Control of the senate: 18 years under republican control, 22 under democrat (not always the same years)
          Presidency: 20 each for republican and democrat presidents.

          Years with control of the house, senate, and presidency at the same time:
          Democrats: 8 years.
          Republicans: 4 years.

          • te reo putake 3.1.1.2.1

            I could have worded that better, so thanks for the clarification, Phil. As you note, the years of control overlap. What I meant was that the GOP has either been in direct control or has had the ability to curtail the ambitions of a Democrat President, as they do now.

            Carter had four years where both house and senate had Democrat majorities. Clinton and Obama only enjoyed two years of their eight as President with the same advantage. The rest of the time they were hamstrung by the house or the senate being in Republican hands.

            The Presidential split is 19 years Democrat, 21 years GOP. You forgot Gerald Ford. But then he was very forgettable.

            • Phil 3.1.1.2.1.1

              What I meant was that the GOP has either been in direct control or has had the ability to curtail the ambitions of a Democrat President, as they do now.

              This is dubious and one-sided. You could, more effectively, argue that the Democrat-controlled house and/or senate has curtailed the ambitions of Republican Presidents…. because that is what the data shows (in terms of years in power).

              Bottom line is: we can all agree there are some pretty fundamental things wrong with American politics that have been evident for decades. To try and pin the blame on one major party, without acknowledging the equal culpability of the other major party, is a cheap argument and I know you can make a better contribution than that (because I’ve seen you do it before).

  4. vto 4

    That is fucking out there and scary as all shit …….

    It is the Nuremburg rallies of 1930’s Germany to a tee ……. (godwin can get fucked)

    Listen to it, watch it, and then multiply it by thousands and thousands ….

    As Maddow points out at the start, various previous events have been going on in the US for a while, sporadically here and there. This is now concentrating those issues and providing an outlet. It is ramping up – and I don’t see no sign of easing – it will get worse before better. A lot worse.

    A force is in existence in the US that is on a par with 1930’s Germany. Ignore at our peril – like the world did in the 1930’s.

    • weka 4.1

      I found it scarey shit too.

    • AmaKiwi 4.2

      +1

      Inciting to riot.

      “They” are destroying America/Germany from within. I will restore the glory of America/Germany by getting ride of these rats and vermin.

      What is your economic plan? Destroy the Jews, gypsies, faggots, Mexicans, Muslims…….

      • McFlock 4.2.1

        yep – also the idea that thumping people shows moral strength that the country is lacking.

        That “USA” chant got really scary, too. Next they’ll all be yelling “Victory! Yay!”

        • AmaKiwi 4.2.1.1

          + 1 (McFlock)

          Trump’s ideology: vocal protesters are immoral scum. Beating them up is the moral high ground; the way we took care of problems in the good old days.

          Berlin 1933: The Brown Shirts beat the socialists to a pulp and claimed it was for the glory of a greater Germany.

    • Anne 4.4

      A force is in existence in the US that is on a par with 1930’s Germany. Ignore at our peril – like the world did in the 1930’s.

      +1000

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5

      A force is in existence in the US that is on a par with 1930’s Germany. Ignore at our peril – like the world did in the 1930’s.

      QFT

      The US has become everything that it once fought against.

      NZ, in following the psychopathic, neo-liberal, business above all else model is close behind them.

      • Colonial Viper 4.5.1

        Although when you look up how the USA helped fuck over the left wing in the Philippines, it’s easy to see that they’ve had a morally flexible approach to building an empire for a long time.

  5. joe90 5

    BooMan sums up the Trump constituency.

    Simply put, a population that makes up the core of the Republican base has been committing suicide, overdosing on opioids, and drinking itself to death at a rate comparable to the AIDS epidemic. And the Republicans not only spent zero time trying to help them during the Bush and Obama years, they didn’t even seem to know that this was happening to them.

    It seems to me that this is a tremendous failing. As president, Obama is responsible for all Americans and American communities, but these people aren’t his core base of support. They by-and-large did not vote for him or the Democratic Party. The first responsibility here is for the Republicans to talk to their supporters, figure out what they need (and, no, it’s not Wall Street deregulation and tax cuts for the rich) and take some proposals to the president.

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2016/3/13/112728/693

    • vto 5.1

      Good luck with getting the republicans to do something like that.

      I think the only thing the power brokers in the republican party are doing is buying chunks of land in NZ with airstrips ……………………………..

  6. saveNZ 6

    Sounds a bit more like attack politics to me. It’s a bit of a stretch to pin police violence against black youths onto Trump.

    I don’t support Trump, but I think he is just articulating what other right wing Republican (and possibly some democrats) politicians really think. He just says it out loud. At least you can debate it instead of it being hidden.

    The police violence against black men has escalated under Obama due to the growing inequality in particular of middle and working class after the financial crisis, charter schools and focus on competition, decreased civil rights under the terrorism legalisation and continual fear mongering from the media.

    Power corrupts and this is being seen in how the police and US military are behaving. The government is covering up inappropriate police and military behaviour and by doing so escalating violence.

    I blame the media more than I would blame Trump. Sounds like a lot of US nationals live in fear that a muslim will come and murder them, when statistically much more likely to be a white police man, who once has a badge and is effectively above the law in the US. Likewise US military who can kill and torture sanctioned by a Republican Lite government. Meanwhile US corporations lobbyists are pushing legalisation giving more power to them and taking it away from workers and public good.

    When you throw away all the rules and feel above international law, all hell breaks loose.

    • Chooky 6.1

      +100

    • weka 6.2

      “I don’t support Trump, but I think he is just articulating what other right wing Republican (and possibly some democrats) politicians really think. He just says it out loud. At least you can debate it instead of it being hidden.”

      You think most Republicans and some Democrats think there isn’t enough violence and that more people should be punching each other? Because that is what Trump is saying (did you watch the video?).

      Sure, there is a whole class thing going on. But there is something else as well, that’s what Maddow is pointing to. It’s authoritarianism and it has bugger all to do with classes of people who’re standing up for their rights. Yes the middle classes, Obama, the MSM etc all have culpability for the clusterfuck that is the US now, but they’re not responsible for Trump nor the mob mentality that has arisen. That’s already latent in the culture (and it’s in NZ culture too).

      • saveNZ 6.2.2

        The mob mentality is the ‘black youths’ being gunned down by police in cold blood. Black protest is actually legitimate protest. Good on them.

        Trump does not even speak to black youth so he is not fuelling them on. He is speaking to white anger. Trump, might be fueling hatred, but that is separate to the police racism fueling racial hatred that has been occurring in the US for years and never been dealt with properly by the previous and current governments.

        • weka 6.2.2.1

          No-one is saying that Trump is fuelling black youth on. Nor that he is fuelling police racial violence. Maddow is suggesting that Trump is using existing unrest to up the ante. He is using the volatile situation in those Black cities to incite his followers to violence against people he is saying they should hate. You think it’s a coincidence that the person who got sucker punched was black and the person who did it was white?

          • saveNZ 6.2.2.1.1

            I’m just commenting that it could have been worse, it could be a white police officer shooting a black kid 8 times in the back.

            And that has been happening for a long time now in the US, but now suddenly the media are concerned about inciting racial violence.

            If they were worried about death and inciting unrest then,

            500,000 civilian Iraqi’s have been killed in the Iraq war. American-led intervention in SyriaAccording to SOHR, U.S.-led Coalition airstrikes have killed 4,435 people across Syria, of which: 3,914 dead were ISIS fighters, 147 Al-Nusra Front militants and other rebels and 366 civilians. The air strikes occurred in the period between 22 September 2014 and 23 February 2016. (source wikipedia).

            Just commenting on the hypocrisy and think there is a bit more to it, than just a concerned media.

            In fact I would be more worried about global unrest of inequality from the International Democrat Union (IDU) . (Alliance of centre-right political parties) encouraging inequality through global neoliberalism and corporate control. Unrest from climate change and unrest from War that is displacing people and leading to massive migration and refugee status.

            Hillary Clinton seems to be ok with much of the above and is just as dangerous as Trump. Trump seems to want to do an “Israel’ and lock everyone out of the US and blow people up that he doesn’t agree with, Clinton is just more expansionist, meddling in as much as possible so as to feel the feeling of control, but still blowing people up she feels deserve it.

            Quite frankly very similar. Clinton will use advisors to make decisions but Trump will just go with his gut. Not sure what is more dangerous.

    • mickysavage 6.3

      It’s a bit of a stretch to pin police violence against black youths onto Trump.

      I did not think she was saying this. She was saying that the area is in turmoil because of police violence against young black men and for Trump to use the type of language that he has in these circumstances is incendiary and totally reckless.

      • joe90 6.3.1

        Maddow alluded to Trump fanning the flames.

        St Louis is as beset with racial strife as it was during the Ferguson protests, and both outside and inside the Peabody, veterans of those protests had returned to take on Trump. Protesters held signs and chanted slogans as the crowd angrily claimed them as targets. Trump fans screamed racial slurs, including the N-word, at the protesters of many races and backgrounds. Mothers and fathers put their children aside to get in fistfights with activists, and fellow Trump fans cheered them on.

        Several Trump fans vowed that the next time, they would come armed. Some warned that if Trump was not chosen by Republicans, a militia would rise up to take him to power. When an evicted protester appeared at the doors of the Peabody, it was like a scene out of Shirley Jackson’s The Lottery: gazing down at a sea of rage, the demonstrator descended the stairs and the crowd tensed to pounce.

        http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/12/donald-trump-supporters-st-louis-rally-protest-violence

      • weka 6.3.2

        and intentional.

      • saveNZ 6.3.3

        Yes and she may well be right, but the main reason behind the black unrest is that white police officers are shooting them in cold blood and its being documented in photos and videos and in public. This is happening under a black democrat president and few arrests and prosecutions or crack downs have happened to the police or to the military in the case of Guantanamo Bay and other torture.

        Added to that is the growing inequality of Americans.

        If what Trump said was indeed leading to unrest we would see mass amounts of white supporters beating up people in the streets. That is not what is happening.

        Is telling someone to punch someone who throw a tomato at them worse than covering up or not getting to the bottom of the above? To my mind although valid, it is a distraction for what is really behind US unrest. Police racism under a black president and inequality and a lack of oversight by government.

        Trevor Mallard has been prosecuted for punching Tau Henare. I’m not saying it is right by the way, I’m just trying to put it into perspective

        What we are seeing in the US is that people in positions of power like police and military are killing and torturing people, it is being documented and the police and military are getting away with it, and that has nothing to do with Trump in my book but US politics and a government who has thrown out the rule book on human rights, out of control.

        At least Trump puts the issues in the spotlight.

        • Colonial Viper 6.3.3.1

          Agree.

          Trump is not the ideal Presidential candidate by a long shot. His politics are very different to ours.

          But his very existence and popularity points directly to how failed both the Republican and Democratic parties have been in serving ordinary Americans.

          And a lot of people are damn mad about it.

          They’ve had enough with the establishment.

          • weka 6.3.3.1.1

            “ordinary Americans.”

            apart from the ones supporting other candidates. Your bigotry is getting tiresome.

          • Ad 6.3.3.1.2

            So which candidate for President of the United States do you prefer?

            • Colonial Viper 6.3.3.1.2.1

              Out of Clinton and Sanders, I want Sanders as the nominee.

              Out of Trump, Rubio and Cruz, I want Trump as the nominee.

              Out of Clinton and Trump, I want Trump as President.

              Out of Sanders and Trump, I want Sanders as President.

          • Dialey 6.3.3.1.3

            Not sure his politics are that different to ours, it’s only a matter of degree. It was pretty obvious in the PM and his media flunkies comments on the anti TPPA protests for example. The derogatory comments towards protestors is just the beginning

  7. weka 7

    The bravery of the protestors, esp Black men and women going into the actual rallies, is awe inspiring. People who know how serious things are and willing to stand up.

    • aerobubble 7.1

      Republican’s have self victimized to gain the pity vote, all Trump has done is gone a step further, tell us he’s not going to take the attacks, begging them even, like so many voters feel, under attack, not understanding that voting for nutters has created the mess, they instead cant understand whats going, and here’s Trump saying he gets that, he understands their anger. Hes connecting like Sanders, but unlike Sander big media does NOT see Trump as the threat. explaining that burning gas is creating climate change, that using up pristine resources and backing big finance, the whole sumplified distractiin that we’re rational to believe in markets delivering our ends without our input, the giant spirit of actionable conservativism myth.

      Trump, like Key, will continue to be present with blah, blah, this, as this is how they stay normative, Sanders, or tv news, or whatever else will drop in and out, be revamped, to make them look less important. This is why Key remains popular, Little talks just as much nonsense, but Key is a fixture. Trump is also.

      How can you have inflation if all choice is take away and machines manipulate our lives.

    • Ad 7.2

      They were petrol on a bonfire.

      • weka 7.2.1

        What do you think they should do instead?

        • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1

          Get a good candidate with which to beat the Republican nominee at the ballot box.

          • weka 7.2.1.1.1

            Ok. You do that for NZ and then I’ll see about asking Black people in the US to put up a decent Republican candidate.

            Honest to god CV, how you can claim to know what the common man wants when you post comments like that is beyond me.

            • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1.1

              ?

              You asked what the Black protestors should do instead and I answered your question. What’s your problem?

              • weka

                It’s a ridiculous answer not based in reality, hence my suggestion that you do the same for NZ. Go on, find, fund and put up for nomination a good leader for the Labour party.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Why would I do anything with or for the Labour Party FFS?

                  • weka

                    It’s not for Labour you dick, it’s for NZ and the common man. If you think that telling Black Americans that the solution to the problem they are protesting is to put up a winning Republican candidate of course I’m going to mock that by making an equally ridiculous proposal for you.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Uh why would I ask Black protestors who are against Trump to put up a winning Republican candidate?

                      I said that they should pick a candidate who was going to BEAT the Republican NOMINEE for President at the ballot box.

                    • weka

                      Do you mean they should vote Clinton or Sanders? Because ‘get a good candidate’ doesn’t sound like voting in the presidential election or even the primary. And it’s a bit late by that stage if Trump still wins.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I have zero problem with Trump winning the Republican nomination as opposed to having Cruz or Rubio win it.

  8. Chooky 9

    ‘Trump vs neocons’

    https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/335214-trump-us-presidency-candidate/

    “When running for the presidency of the United States, candidates are often asked what kind of foreign policy leader they would be. In this election cycle, being a foreign policy hawk is very much in vogue. Donald Trump is singled out as being a dangerous loose cannon. On this edition of CrossTalk, we have a look at who really supports the Party of War.”

  9. AmaKiwi 10

    Lessons for New Zealand?

    Tell us yours. Things I am thinking about.

    1. Don’t brush over the complaints of the disadvantaged. Anger which fuels hate and violence is never far below the surface.

    2. Be wary about getting into bed (politically) with a superpower that could be led by a despot.

    3. Corruption at the top destroys the elite’s legitimacy. NZ corruption is sickeningly obvious.

    4. Our governments pride themselves on disregarding the public’s wishes, which they denigrate as “populism.” Our national ethic is anti-democratic: “the elite always knows best.” It’s a recipe for rebellion against all authority.

    Trump can happen here. What do you see as ways to prevent it?

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      Need a political alternative which breaks the electorate’s hypnosis with the big two political parties.

      • AmaKiwi 10.1.1

        CV –

        The 2 major parties are so thoroughly compromised it will come from outside them. That’s the pattern overseas.

      • Ad 10.1.2

        Need to get the least-crazy candidate elected President.

        Forget ideals and save what’s left.

        I think the Chicago police hierarchy had a residual memory of the Democratic convention in Chicago 1968.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.2.1

          Seems to me that a lot of American citizens have decided that they want to trash the establishment. And the last thing they want to do is to save what’s left of the establishment.

    • Stuart Munro 10.2

      Distributed democracy. Replace list positions ie half of parliament with citizen juries serving shorter terms. Breaks the power blocks.

    • weka 10.3

      “Trump can happen here. What do you see as ways to prevent it?”

      Understand what authoritarianism is. Understand what power is (use identity politics to understand power and domination and systems, and then use intersectionality to build bridges). When we can name where the authoritarianism is, not just in those we oppose politically but in those that we live, work and play with, we can then look at what causes that and how to change it so that everyone’s wellbeing is taken into account.

      I agree about the disadvantaged. The problem we have in NZ politically is that the people who should be speaking up against the oppression of white working and underclass people, esp men, are wasting their time attacking feminism and others using intersectionality. Trump is just the extreme end of that. We need to get much much better at understanding diversity. I’d love to see more working class politics from a NZ perspective written about on the standard.

  10. Richard@Down South 11

    I really dislike Trump, but this here is an interesting argument

    You haven’t been paying attention

    • weka 11.1

      I wouldn’t call Trump mentally ill either (not least because it slurs people with mental illness). But I would call him spiritually ill or morally deficient and what goes with that is a level of disconnect that makes him unfit for office. Being a sociopath* doesn’t preclude one from reading Sun Tzu 😉

      *that’s not the right word, can’t think what it should be.

      • joe90 11.1.1

        bully*

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          That too (or thug), but I was thinking it’s someone who’s not right in the head but is also a megalomaniac. It’s his complete lack of compassion and humanism, so maybe psychopath is closer.

          • emergency mike 11.1.1.1.1

            Personally I’ve always seen him as a classic narcissist. But a narcissist can also be a psychopath. And a case could surely be made for Trump as an ‘unprincipaled’ Milton subtype of antisocial. The description of which is virtually identical to ‘unprincipled narcissist’.

            Not good either way.

  11. Stuart Munro 12

    Trump is I think cynically channelling public anger. But the public have reason to be angry – with the 1%ers, the bankers, Wall street, and party insiders. Trump is a demagogue – people have forgotten perhaps why that profession was so despised. Demagogues tend to bring conflicts to the surface.

    • Phil 12.1

      But the public have reason to be angry – with the 1%ers, the bankers, Wall street, and party insiders.

      You forgot the most significant reason why the white, conservative, middle-class voters that make up the vast majority of Trump’s support are angry: the barriers of white privilege that have protected these people from other social/racial groups have been broken down.

    • Ad 12.2

      so to be clear:
      do you support Donald Trump as candidate for President of the United States?

  12. Ovid 13

    History doesn’t repeat, but it does rhyme

  13. McFlock 14

    I think there is an important lesson for the nats here: be careful what you wish for.

    Trump’s demagoguery is itself the logical extension of bullshit arguments, which are the logical extensions of lies and hypocrisy.

    Look at Harry Read’s reaction to Scalia’s death, claiming that Obama shouldn’t nominate a replacement SCJ on the basis of an extension of a convention that Read himself argued against when an SCJ died during Bush’s term. As soon as politicians let go of some connection to the truth or integrity, the result is an inevitable spiral down into populist scaremongering and distilled bullshit.

    The nats are hanging on because of a bullshitter. Good for them, for now. However, next election or the one after, they could well be faced with someone like drumpf, a buffoon who ends up gaining popular support by appealing to the basest impulses of the electorate. And that will get in the way of business as usual, which is what the nat funders really don’t want.

  14. Sabine 15

    this is an interesting read on “trumpism’.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/03/how_donald_trump_happened_racism_against_barack_obama.single.html

    Quote” There have been some conservative writers who have tried to hang Trump’s success on the current president, pointing to his putatively extreme positions. But in most respects, Obama is a conventional politician—well within the center-left of the Democratic Party. Or at least, he’s governed in that mode, with an agenda that sits safely in the mainstream. Laws like the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and the Affordable Care Act weren’t impositions from the far left; they were built out of proposals from the right and left, passed by a majority of Congress that was elected to pursue solutions on health care and the economy. Barack Obama is many things, but conservative rhetoric aside, he’s no radical.

    We can’t say the same for Obama as a political symbol, however. In a nation shaped and defined by a rigid racial hierarchy, his election was very much a radical event, in which a man from one of the nation’s lowest castes ascended to the summit of its political landscape. And he did so with heavy support from minorities: Asian Americans and Latinos were an important part of Obama’s coalition, and black Americans turned out at their highest numbers ever in 2008.Quote End.

    read it, its good.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      Obama may be at the centre left of the Democratic party, but that’s a quasi-fascist warmongering security surveillance state party by international standards.

      He’s continued virtually every policy of the GW Bush administration (albeit having tidied up the use of torture and extraordinary rendition), cosied up with the banksters and Wall St, and is a driver behind the pro-corporate TPP, yet another free trade agreement which will fuck over the ordinary American worker.

      Obama has also empowered and extended the powers of the NSA while pushing through changes which would enable the imprisonment of US citizens with no charge as well as the use of the US military on home soil against citizens.

      And all this talk about Obama from being a lower caste etc, that’s just marketing branding bullshit that the liberals bought into. Obama was always a tool of the banksters and he remains a tool of the banksters.

  15. Ad 16

    Sanders is as close to populism as we probably need to get.

    Remember Twyford, and remember Brash Orewa: you don’t need to win ugly.

  16. joe90 17

    Sekrit instructions prove people disrupting Trump rallies are Bernie communists!.
    //

    Trump Nation 2016
    ‏@Trump_Nation16

    Look this was found on the ground after the protesters were taken out by police at the Trump Rally yesterday

  17. joe90 18

    Lots of vitriol and anger, and something else, to go around – Bern the Witch.

    A look at the demography of Trump and Sanders supporters also provides some insights. If you were to get Sanders’ supporters in a room with Trump’s supporters, the two groups would be pretty hard to tell apart.

    Repeated polling (including exit polls of individuals who have actually voted in primary elections so far) shows that Sanders’ supporters are overwhelmingly white, and that black voters are unlikely to vote for Sanders.

    Both of those facts are also applicable to Donald Trump. A February CNN and ORC poll found that 44% of all white respondents said they had a favorable opinion of Trump, while 52% of white respondents said the same about Sanders. Non-white respondents were less likely to choose either candidate over others from their party.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/13/bernie-sanders-supporters-consider-donald-trump-no-hillary-clinton

  18. Kevin 19

    So basically it is Donald’s fault that leftist thugs are planted in his audience by a political action group. And it is his fault that he DARES to campaign for office of President in major U.S. cities.

    This is akin to blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt. “Well, she was asking for it!” BRAVO! Your true colors on display. You cannot believe once scenario above and not believe the other. Unless you are truly a credit to hypocritical elitist windbags everywhere. Guilty as charged.

  19. Sable 20

    You all think this is better? There are few good choices in US politics:

    http://leecamp.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2ab5175e797cf44579dae2f21&id=fd23e6ac00&e=b82e30ccb2

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