Scoop on the Hager Rawshark raid case

Written By: - Date published: 7:22 am, October 24th, 2015 - 186 comments
Categories: Dirty Politics, humour, journalism - Tags: , , ,

Here’s something for politics junkies on a Saturday morning – Scoop on the Hager Rawshark raid case:

Inside The Hunt For Rawshark – The Hager Raid Court File

Scoop Independent News has secured access to the court file for the Hager Rawshark Raid Case and today publishes partially redacted versions an initial group of documents released by the High Court.

If wading through affidavits isn’t your thing, try Lyndon Hood’s lighter 19 Things Only Restructured Journalists Will Get.

…and the symbiotic relationship between the Prime Minister and mass media light entertainment is slowly sucking what used to be a democratic function out of the veins of your industry…

Public Interest Journalism – use it or lose it!

Please contribute to Scoop’s latest pledge drive here:

Building a Sustainable Independent News Organisation for the People of New Zealand

The news is broken. As traditional advertising revenues dry up, New Zealand’s major news publishers are dumbing down or distorting the news to keep their businesses alive. The newly-formed Scoop Foundation for Public Interest Journalism is seeking your support for its solution to the news crisis.

In this campaign we’re seeking $50,000 from individual donors and targeting corporate and institutional donors for a further $50,000 in matching funds.

186 comments on “Scoop on the Hager Rawshark raid case”

  1. mickysavage 1

    The Hager documents are fascinating. If you want to go to the document that summarises things it is the opening submissions written by Julian Miles and Felix Geiringer. It is a fascinating summary of the case (http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1510/20150701__Wriiten_submissions_for_the_applicant_Redacted.pdf)

    The submissions start in this way:

    1.1. New Zealand’s preeminent investigative journalist, Nicky Hager, was given emails taken from the computer of an attack blogger, Cameron Slater. The emails disclosed the immoral (and arguably criminal) acts of Mr Slater, public relations agents, and members of the governing National Party. Mr Hager wrote a book about them.

    1.2. The Police then conducted an unprecedented search of Mr Hager’s home. They gave no consideration to whether Mr Hager’s rights, and those of his many confidential informants, meant the search should not have been made; they say that they did not have to. Nor did they have any regard for the requirements the Court of Appeal laid down in TVNZ v Attorney- General.1 They seized Mr Hager’s computers and many of his documents.

    1.3. This search has grave implications for democracy in New Zealand. It damages the public’s ability to receive vital information, through journalists, from people who are prepared to take great personal risks to expose wrongdoing and abuses of power. Once the Police arrived at his home and the story got in the news, much of the damage was done. The best hope to reduce this damage is an equally high profile decision that says that this raid on a journalist was wrong.

  2. mickysavage 2

    Westpac handed over some of Hager’s banking information to the police without a warrant. I mean seriously WTF were they thinking?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11422509

    • Tracey 2.1

      really?.? remember the citibank v white case… when the bank arguably killed to protect customer info.

    • veutoviper 2.2

      Snap – I was about to put up that link also.

      A certain Dunedin-based blogger has already put up two posts on the Scoop and Herald article with conspiracy suggestions as to how Fisher knew about the Scoop releases, etc. I will not provide links but they are provided a quick laugh.

      Hooton has already tweeted outrage at Westpac’ s action and called for people to not bank with Westpac.

      • Tracey 2.2.1

        did he say if he banks with them?

        • veutoviper 2.2.1.1

          Not specifically. Here is the twitter thread of his conversation with Graeme Edgeler and others

          PS – what is this about Slater being raided? Your 2.3.2.1 below.

          • Tracey 2.2.1.1.1

            just reminding people of the difference in treatme t of one who holds politicians to account and onexwho does their bidding for person gain

        • mary_a 2.2.1.2

          @ Tracey (2.2.1) – not sure. But the government does though!

        • Smilin 2.2.1.3

          Doesnt the govt use Westpac ? a bit of insider work going on maybe

    • “Detectives investigating the Dirty Politics hacker Rawshark sought the banking, telephone and travel records of author and journalist Nicky Hager without any search order or other legal power.”

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11534242

      Hard to believe and very disturbing

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 2.3.1

        Not really. I’ve annoyed the occasional policeman over the years by refusing to give them information without proper authorisation.

        That sort of behaviour has gone on for years in both public and private sector.

        The banks used to be, and probably still are, great at ringing another bank and just saying it’s so and so branch here in their best friendly banking voice without mentioning they are also a different bank.

        It was always a surprise to me how often the information was handed over.

        There’s no laws as far as I know that stop anyone simply asking for information.

        • Tracey 2.3.1.1

          except common law which is very clear that client information belongs to the client not the bank and accordingly can only be given with client permission or production order.

          see Brambles and Citibank v White

          • Descendant Of Sssmith 2.3.1.1.1

            Aye but that puts the responsibility on the holder of the information.

            If I walked in and asked for information and you gave it to me what laws have I broken by asking.

            Private investigators are another group who oft do this.

            • Tracey 2.3.1.1.1.1

              you havent but the bank has.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith

                What you quoted indicated that you were incredulous that the information was asked for.

                Mickey’s post above that was incredulous that the bank gave it.

                Two different posts that looked to all intents and purposes to be coming from opposite angles.

                • Muttonbird

                  Haven’t the police created a crime in this case?

                  And worse, the evidence suggests it is widespread, unofficial, police policy to coerce private information out of institutions without the need to ask the justice system.

                  Not what I want from our cops.

                • Tracey

                  no i was incredulous it was given so easy

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.1.1.1.2

              If I walked in and asked for information and you gave it to me what laws have I broken by asking.

              None but the person giving you the information has broken several and you accepting it, IIRC, also breaks a few. NZ’s privacy laws are actually quite tight – the problem is that people don’t seem to follow them.

              • weka

                I think that’s true too (that asking isn’t illegal but receiving is if it breaches privacy), but it would be good to have that clarified.

              • NZ’s privacy laws are in most respects incredibly aggressive, but yeah, compliance with them is actually pretty difficult because of that. (Not that it isn’t important)

        • CnrJoe 2.3.1.2

          From the Edgeler thread –
          Andy Milne-Skudder ‏@AndyBMilne
          ” I sincerely hope no banks would do this. I work for a bank; the Privacy Act is drilled into us from day 1″.

      • Muttonbird 2.3.2

        Woodhouse refused to comment. Hadn’t his notes on what to say been delivered yet?

        • Tracey 2.3.2.1

          lol. slaters been raided, righand 35 officers involved in blomfelds complaint against slater publishing personal details?

    • Gavin 2.4

      I’m not that surprised. Years ago I was with Westpac for a while by default, after they bought out one of the regional savings banks. They rewrote the rules of the super fund immediately, so they could collect more fees, they looked at my account and asked for regular data to the point where it was obvious that they wanted me to go to another bank. It cost me about $6000 to move banks, but I researched for banks which had a good rating from their customers. Westpac was down the bottom in the ratings, and I think they’ve stayed there. I have stuck with the bank I chose back then, they made it a lot easier to succeed.

    • weka 2.5

      Is this not a consequence of 7 years of inceasingly corrupt government, where dirty politics is ok as long as you get away with it, hence dirty business and cronyism likewise?

      Reading that Herald article I’d say it’s also a consequence of the way privacy has been undermined in the digital age and our inability to keep ethics and laws up with IT advances. Add to that the changes in security services access to data, and the whole culture around privacy has changed.

      • Tracey 2.5.1

        and the police allowing their political sympathies to cloud what they investigate….

        • Draco T Bastard 2.5.1.1

          +1

          It’s obvious in watching the way the police behave that they’re fully in Nationals camp.

          • Tracey 2.5.1.1.1

            admittedly Julian Miles submissions are designed to push one view but the facts are, presumably, pretty clear, and the Police, again, have behaved poorly.

            The notion that DI could meet the Ass Commissioner to discuss a warrant against Hager was just “verbal” with no documented record is appalling

    • Reddelusion 2.6

      The Hager Duplessis defense, public interest, only however available for left wing causes

    • dukeofurl 2.7

      Its all Ok according to their terms and conditions.

      http://www.westpac.co.nz/assets/Who-we-are/About-Westpac-NZ/General-Terms-Conditions.pdf

      ” ….you authorise any member of the Westpac Group to disclose
      your information to the police, government agencies in New Zealand or overseas or other financial institutions where any member of the Westpac Group reasonably believes that the disclosure will assist it to comply with any law, rules or regulations in New Zealand or overseas or will assist in the investigation,….”

      Its free reign for any ‘ other financial institution’ as well as the Police here ‘and overseas’

      • Tracey 2.7.1

        it cannot be reasonable belief just cos a cop said they wanted it. a cop with a production order gives the bank all the grounds it needs. hence trademd and airnz didnt release until they saw a production order

        • Colonial Viper 2.7.1.1

          Someone reasonably high up the Westpac management hierarchy would have OK’d the action. To prevent Westpac from doing the same again, that manager needs to be identified and held accountable for the privacy breach.

    • linda 2.8

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/24/why-the-latest-details-on-the-police-harassment-of-nicky-hager-should-lead-every-news-bulletin/

      more information on the daily blog on the banking handover
      the police are corrupt as hell and need to be outed

  3. Tracey 3

    air nz and trademe demanded protection orders.

    no wonder westpac got the govt banking contract renewed 😆

  4. Hami Shearlie 4

    This may well prove to be a very very costly decision by Westpac – who in their right mind would bank with them now?

    • Tracey 4.1

      The kind of people who want them to roll over to their requests?

      Presumably the Privacy Commissioner and Banking Ombudsmen wlll be investigating, right?

    • GMan 4.2

      Westpac allowed my account to be frozen on behalf on an enraged ex father in law who was high up in banking circles with another bank. Old mates helping each other out. My issue with Westpac is playing out. It will be fascinating to see what information i receive.

    • Colonial Viper 4.3

      A reminder that Simon Power got gifted a plum job with Westpac in Australia.

      • Tracey 4.3.1

        A timely reminder indeed


        Simon Power, GM Consumer Banking & Wealth

        Simon Power was appointed General Manager, Consumer Banking & Wealth in May 2015. The business unit incorporates Westpac’s retail network, together with small business and the Private Wealth Management division.

        Prior to his current appointment he held the roles of General Manager, Business Bank, Private Bank, Wealth & Insurance; Managing Director, Private, Wealth & Insurance and before that, Head of Private Bank for Westpac New Zealand Limited.

        Simon joined Westpac in 2012 following a 12 year career as a Member of Parliament in New Zealand. Between 2008–2011 he served as Minister of Justice, Minister of Commerce and Minister of State Owned Enterprises, among other portfolios.

        During that period he led significant reform and change in financial market oversight and regulation in NZ.

        http://www.westpac.co.nz/who-we-are/about-westpac-new-zealand/our-executive-team/simon-power/

      • Ron 4.3.2

        and also did not former National PM Shipley have a husband that was high up in Westpac

    • infused 4.4

      All banks will have that clause.

  5. Morrissey 5

    Why did Labour not support Hager and Greenwald last year, and instead keep calling Dirty Politics a “distraction”?

    • Tracey 5.1

      To play both sides of the issue immediately prior to an election, and remember the Nats meme was Labour does it too.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        It’s more than that. Labour voted for National’s spying/anti-terrorism bill, and illegally cut the Greens out of a seat on the intelligence subcommittee.

        Labour sees itself as part of the ruling power structure.

      • Morrissey 5.1.2

        The Nats didn’t have a leg to stand on. Yes, the Labour government was sometimes nasty and vindictive: I’ll never forgive Michael Cullen for his sneering and dishonest putdowns of Keith Locke in parliament, or Helen Clark for her contemptuous remarks about Ahmed Zaoui’s lawyer Deborah Manning, or her foolish dismissal of Maori protestors as “haters and wreckers”.

        But Labour, for all its many faults, never used the organs of the state to persecute its political opponents like Key’s gang has done. Labour should have seized on Hager’s revelations and made them front, left and centre of its campaign.

        Labour’s brilliant “strategists”, however, thought otherwise.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1

          But Labour, for all its many faults, never used the organs of the state to persecute its political opponents like Key’s gang has done.

          You haven’t looked back far enough. Labour actively blacklisted andfucked the lives and public sector careers of concientious objectors during WWII.

          • naturesong 5.1.2.1.1

            Which is kinda weird given that several concientious objectors during WWI subsequently became Labour MP’s and ministers (Peter Fraser, Bob Semple, Tim Armstrong, Jim O’Brien and Paddy Webb).

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1.1.1

              ahhhh I hadn’t known that, thanks. It’s quite possible that the local electorate membership of those candidates was fine with their actions and hence selected them to stand as candidates.

              • dukeofurl

                600 were allowed to claim exemption as ‘conscies’

                http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/second-world-war-at-home/in-dissent

                800 were imprisoned , not sure why their consciences werent enough? But some of course were arrested for sedition when they urged others to oppose the war.

              • Well Fraser did become Prime Minister in1940(?).

                After the full cost to NZ of WWI was tallied along with recognition that our servicemen had been badly used by the British during the campaign there was marked change of attitude within New Zealand society. (NZ – British relationship anyway – not sure how much that extended to conscientious objectors)

                It is possible that they were elected because the wider electorate recognised that they had been on the right side of history.
                But most likely it was the hard work of labour party and union members to disseminate Labour Party policies and mobilise communities to vote in their own interest rather than for those who exploit the labour and resources of this country.

          • Tracey 5.1.2.1.2

            And the winebox revelatons also showed Labour MPs had reasons to halt its progression

          • Morrissey 5.1.2.1.3

            You’re correct of course. That’s the problem with Labour—it’s full of time-servers and crawlers who’ll do and say anything to get ahead. Or, indeed, to run a distant and pathetic second.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1.3.1

              The proportion of time servers, crawlers and careerists seems to have been rising in the most recent decade.

    • Colonial Viper 5.2

      Because from Labour’s point of view, fuck the Internet Mana Party and anything they are associated with.

      • dukeofurl 5.2.1

        Wise heads knew the voters were going to do the same once the votes were counted, isnt it time you dried your eyes !
        Havent you noticed in NZ politics since MMP ? Small players get used and abused.

        • Colonial Viper 5.2.1.1

          Yep, and typically by a Labour which has no understanding of MMP and especially of how to cultivate an eco-system of minor party support.

        • Molly 5.2.1.2

          ACT and United Future seemed to have been used – but to reinforce National, and ensure continued governance.

          Small does not equate to unconsequential, unless possible coalition partners decide to make sure that it does.

    • savenz 5.3

      Exactly – it was that moment I decided not to give my party vote to them. Other voters who like Hager might not have voted, others believed it was not an issue but a distraction, became sympathetic to Natz and voted for them.

      MASSIVE mistake by Labour, on top of a lot of others.

      Greens also did not do anything to support Nicky Hager in public that I ever saw, and appeared disinterested in the MASSIVE implications of what was being said. It was so unlike the Greens again caused a bit of a ‘what?’ moment for voters.

      Personally felt let down by both opposition responses to such a massive revelation.

      • Chooky 5.3.1

        +100 savenz … “Greens also did not do anything to support Nicky Hager in public that I ever saw, and appeared disinterested in the MASSIVE implications of what was being said. It was so unlike the Greens again caused a bit of a ‘what?’ moment for voters.”

  6. RedBaronCV 6

    Been reading the dump and there still feels like something odd about all this. The effort put into the searches etc. looks huge. There also appears to be a degree of ignoring justified cautions from within the system of the action plan.
    Okay they may have found out who Rawshark was but that material we assume was largely out and even in several hands. So at best, charging Rawshark would be revenge only and depending on who the person was and their motivation they may even have been in receipt of considerable public sympathy – I couldn’t see it warranting that level of attention.

    It’s almost like – and I’m speculating here – that something very damaging that the public does not yet know about has gone missing/ been compromised and this is what is actually being sought. Something so damaging that even post election it would cause very significant fallout

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      Yep there is something disproportionate about this and it’s very unfortunate that the NZ Police hierarchy played ball with it.

    • RedLogix 6.2

      Good analysis RB.

      Rawshark did say there was more immediately before going to ground – and it’s logical to assume it’s been held onto for reasons of self-preservation.

      It’s also probable the Police already know who Rawshark is and this is the reason why we don’t.

      • Treetop 6.2.1

        The police found out who threatened to contaminate baby formula, I’d say the police know who Rawshark is.

        • Tracey 6.2.1.1

          they were told by their original main suspect who the infant formula person was. if he hadnt they would have arrested or hou ded the wrong person for much longer

        • weston 6.2.1.2

          far as i know they only found out because someone narked and hitherto they had been totally looking in the wrong dirrections.its rubbish to conclude that because they so called solved this case they know who rawshark is

    • Chooky 6.3

      +100…imo…i think they are very scared about what Hager was on to elsewhere and it was an attempt to find out what he was on to ….and if possible nip it in the bud or kill it dead in the water

      It is quite clear from Hager’s and Key’s body language that they absolutely loath each other

      There are many unanswered corrupt things going on in NZ…and with a hopeless msm it is left up to a few brave investigative journalists

      I have no idea what Hager could have been on to elsewhere:

      However money laundering is an issue…(I am sure Penny would have more ideas than me)

      Another issue is South Canterbury Finance and Allan Habbard and his assets

      eg I would like to know exactly what happened over South Canterbury Finance and the liquidation of assets…who were the beneficiaries? eg of Helicopters NZ

      …also Allan Hubbard’s accident and death as he was about to defend himself in court seems rather suspicious

      https://petermsalmon.wordpress.com/allan-hubbard-south-canterbury-finance-and-related-matters/

      https://petermsalmon.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/scfdavid-cunliffe-continues-to-seek-enlightenment/

      https://www.loomio.org/d/JgLHTu1z/re-open-the-investigation-into-alan-hubbard-s-death-or-murder

    • Sacha 6.4

      Hager was apparently working on an expose about the police.

      • Chooky 6.4.1

        interesting…this would explain police actions…what sort of expose I wonder?

      • Naturesong 6.4.2

        From Scoop:

        “At the time of the raid Nicky Hager was working on a series of articles based on documents sourced from NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. Intercept editor and Citizen Four documentary maker Glenn Greenwald wrote at the time of the raid:

        Whether or not Hager’s work with The Intercept may have partially motivated the raid, the situation underscores the dangers of using invasive law enforcement tactics against reporters—they impede the reporting process, render source relationships very difficult to protect, and offer the very authorities that reporters are attempting to hold accountable a window into their ongoing reporting. (The Intercept‘s collaboration with Hager will proceed.)

        • Sacha 6.4.2.1

          That’s a different project. The police one was mentioned somewhere at the time of the raid – corruption focus, I think.

          • naturesong 6.4.2.1.1

            I do remember something like that mentioned at the time but am unable to recall the source.
            As a result it’s still sitting in the “pending source/fact check” section of my brain (along with the thousands of other potential factoids).

            • Sacha 6.4.2.1.1.1

              Same. Will probably come to me some day at 3am.

              • Anne

                He was said to be working on information given him about corruption inside the NZ Police. I assume ( but don’t know for sure) the informant/informants were from the inside.

    • Tracey 6.5

      t rawshark hasnt been arrested…. the police last acted this way at the behest of Cutibank in the early 90’s. unjustified warrants and special process not available to others

    • Patricia 6.6

      Absolutely, yes, there was likely information that could see the Prime Minister forced to step down in circumstances difficult to believe but which cannot come to light because of equally difficult circumstances.

    • savenz 6.7

      Personally think they were just astonished that Rawshark in spite of all their NSA tricks and surveillance was never identified. He/She is one smart individual.

      • Anne 6.7.1

        Yes, that is my belief too savenz. They don’t know who rawshark is, or they suspect they know but have no evidence to back it up. They know Nicky knows and – together with their Nat govt. masters – that really riles them. Hence, the bullying and intimidation.

        I was a whistle blower 25 years ago, and my public service superiors were so furious I let a rather large cat out of a bag, that they went to inordinate lengths to bully and discredit me. I see exactly the same tactic being applied to Nicky Hagar.

        • Human 6.7.1.1

          I doubt Nicky Hager will be bullied and intimidated – he isn’t a big enough threat is he?

          • Colonial Viper 6.7.1.1.1

            they raided his house, took all his gear, got his info without the required warrants…they made an effort on him alright

            • Human 6.7.1.1.1.1

              But his book did little to dent the election, his book did nothing – you hurt an innocent KARMA will come back to bite you on the arse.

              • McFlock

                Ignore the police abuse of power, rely on karma?

                That’s why someone said that religion is the opiate of the masses.

                • Human

                  If you do something BAD to an innocent because you have a ‘personal’ problem with that person, one day you might come home to an empty house- wife packed up and left.

                  What comes around goes around. Simple.

                  BELIEVE ME- IT HAPPENS.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Meanwhile, on Earth:

                Dirty Politics triggered unprecedented media coverage, intense public concern and debate, soul-searching by journalists, calls for a royal commission, a university symposium, and a series of complaints and inquiries, including an inquiry by the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, who was highly critical of the releases of SIS information described in the book. Leading political figures remarked on the importance of the book, including journalist John Armstrong who described Dirty Politics as “the closest we’ve had to a New Zealand Watergate”. It is changing the way that New Zealand media operate.

                My emphasis.

                So much for “nothing”.

              • Colonial Viper

                “But his book did little to dent the election, his book did nothing”

                What do you base your foolish and absurd statement on? Tens of thousands on NZers who bought the book and have actively supported Hager are very concerned about the abuse of governmental and official power.

                Who are you to declare that that is “nothing”?

                As I said, fucking absurd.

                Re: “karma”…I’ll guarantee you that Hager’s karma from diligently describing the odious conduct of the Dirty Politics players falls squarely on the good side of the ledger. While his book and the fallout from it IS karma manifesting. That you can’t see that despite your spouting marks you as someone who doesnt get it.

          • Anne 6.7.1.1.2

            I doubt Nicky Hager will be bullied and intimidated – he isn’t a big enough threat is he?

            Oh yes he is! Have you not read any of his books? Take for example “Secret Power”? He is credited with having alerted the world to the now famous “Five Eyes” western alliance and their [then] top secret surveillance system called Echelon. Echelon has since been overtaken by even more advanced surveillance systems as revealed by Edward Snowden. The Hagars, Snowdens and Assanges of this world are considered by the international political elite to be a huge threat to their hold on absolute power. Hence the malice, intimidation and other forms of physical/psychological abuse.

            Judging by your comments below Human, it seems you are arguing from a point of ‘absolute’ ignorance of the truth. Instead you are (like many others) clinging to the establishment lies… aided and abetted by a discredited bunch of National
            Party thugs – of which John Key is the prime mover.

            Karma, I hope, will come back to bite john Key and his merry band of political bandits in due course.

    • Ron 6.8

      of course there were rumours at the time that Slater had stuffed up a dns change and promptly blamed his site being inaccessible on a hacker attack. During that kerfuffle it was suggested that his private stuff was accessible to public.
      No idea if this is correct but if it is then it is similar to what happened to Labour server that was not secured and allowed confidential stuff to be publically available.
      Of course in Labour’s case it was their own fault for being sloppy and in Slaters case it was filthy left wing hackers.

      Been reading the dump and there still feels like something odd about all this

  7. ropata 7

    Don't bank with @Westpac. Whatever you think of Hager, this is a fucking outrage. #nzpol https://t.co/JL2y6CZuaU— Matthew Hooton (@MatthewHootonNZ) October 23, 2015

    Police got hold of Hager’s private data without any court order. And Westpac were happy to hand it over without the due process. FFS

    • Stephen 7.1

      Our privacy is the price Westpac has to pay for their government contract. No matter who leaves them, the govt is worth more.

    • dukeofurl 7.2

      Look at their Privacy terms, its got an open door the police walked in.

      “You should also note that any member of the Westpac Group may obtain, use and disclose information about you where required by law. In addition, you authorise any member of the Westpac Group to disclose your information to the police, government agencies in New Zealand or overseas or other financial institutions where any member of the Westpac Group reasonably believes that the disclosure will assist it to comply with any law, rules or regulations in New Zealand or overseas or will assist in the investigation,detection and/or prevention of fraud, money laundering or other criminal offences.

      • ropata 7.2.1

        Did Westpac seriously believe that Hager was involved in “fraud, money laundering or other criminal offences.”?

        Real journalism is an offence now, apparently?

        I wish the police acted lawfully not just on JK’s whims.

        • Reddelusion 7.2.1.1

          Yes receiving stolen material, thus did he pay for it, as with all crimes follow the money, seems reasonable course of action by the nzp

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2.1.1.1

            How odd that he hasn’t been charged with receiving then. Perhaps someone is delusional. Not to mention defaming Mr. Hager.

          • Tracey 7.2.1.1.2

            the police were not chasing him as a suspect deluded but as a witness. so they suspected him of no crime

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.3

            Yes receiving stolen material

            Just because powerful self centred people don’t want their plans to subvert justice and democracy known, doesn’t mean that revealing their godawful plans is “stealing them.”

          • ropata 7.2.1.1.4

            “follow the money” sounds like an excellent strategy you should try it.
            Cabinet Club
            Property Bubble
            Money Laundering
            Oravida
            Donghua Liu
            Investor Visas

            for fucks sake check yourself in the mirror hypocrite

      • weka 7.2.2

        Pretty sure that the Privacy Act trumps any contract between Westpac and its customers. You can’t sign away statuatory rights like that.

        Much of what is in that statement is covered by the Act. The bits that concern me are your second highlight (assist in investigation), and the overseas aspect. If it’s not covered by the Act (and I don’t think those two things are) I can’t see how that can be lawful.

      • Tracey 7.2.3

        hmmm not sure they can

        a. override their obligations under ghe privacy act
        b. consider reasonable. elief is satisfied by ” a police office asked”. for example what reasons did the cops give to trigger reasonable belief by the bank?

  8. reason 8

    The police were in boots and all to serve national and get Hager ……….

    Part of their ‘get Hager’ plan was ……”to see if “he was generating income from the proceeds of the book that could be considered for proceeds of crime action” ( from the herald article ).

    So the police were digging to see if they could possibly use laws against Nicky Hager that were supposedly designed to be used against criminal gangs and major drug sellers …….

    I’d imagine that the sabine like characters within our customs and border security services will be champing at the bit to carry out their sexual assaults and rape like behavior against the woman in Nickys life should they ever be going through New Zealand customs ……….. the same acts and behavior by our customs service that they have carried out against female visitors to our country who are here to visit Dotcom……..

    Nasty nasty stuff by our police and customs all endorsed by John Key and National …….

  9. Reddelusion 9

    Hager did national more good than harm, seen by most normal people as a little twerp that never left uni politics aka Bradbury and the rest of far left nut jobs. Really above is a yawn fest, but I guess outrage topic for the day

  10. Treetop 10

    Does Hager have access to all seized material from his computer?

    Anyone who has sent him information could be targeted as well.

  11. greywarshark 11

    Well back to scoop and how important it is to have access to good factual truth telling journalism.

    They have listed that they have only $8,276 PLEDGED and not even paid just promised,
    from 102 Pledgers, with 24 days to go (till 17/11/2015 at 11 pm) of the target of $50,000.
    Will you get behind Scoop’s phoenix rise from the ashes of the media that is respected?

    Can they succeed without waving a bit of juicy meat in front of the blogging bloodhounds?
    Here is the link that objective observers can watch to see – progress.
    https://www.pledgeme.co.nz/projects/4175-establishing-the-scoop-foundation-for-public-interest-journalism

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Yep about to get in there.

    • Reddelusion 11.2

      This reminds me of rugby union campaign to raise 5 dollars per rugby Fan to save club rugby,remember the Justin Marshall add, this scoop rubbish will go the same way. The market will dictate what media is successful by giving people what they want not what you think they need As the standard does for strandardinistas today a word of advise don’t waste your money

      • Colonial Viper 11.2.1

        Hey shit for brains

        The market doesn’t care about keeping New Zealand informed or about the state of New Zealand’s democracy.

        Geddit?

        As the standard does for strandardinistas today a word of advise don’t waste your money

        Spell properly, fuckwit.

        • Reddelusion 11.2.1.1

          Oops touched a sore point colonial ? , truth hurts I guess. the scoop experiment will determine who is right, the market or the princeses and princesses of the strandardinistas who I must say are also a component the market (a nano minority thankfully)

          • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1.1

            I’m right of course; corporate media and your much vaunted “market” care zero for informing NZers or for the state of NZ democracy.

            This isn’t a fucking game, shithead, this is the country we and our children have to live in.

            • Reddelusion 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Yep and it’s a great country and hardly the basket case you try to portray so just settle down Look forward to the footy 😀

              • Draco T Bastard

                Leave it to National and the RWNJs such as yourself and it will become a basket case very rapidly. It’s already on the skids.

      • Tracey 11.2.2

        almost like its not woth commenting on its so misguided. oh wait

        • Reddelusion 11.2.2.1

          The truth is often ridiculed before it is accepted Tracy,, you will get their eventually, you display a moderation of intelligence. I have high hopes 😀😆

          • ropata 11.2.2.1.1

            So much fail in one comment.

            Why can’t we get better trolls around here? Is basic English, with bit of logic and evidence too much to ask?

            The truly incompetent are too dim to perceive their lack. I lament the hollowness of right wing spin. Politicians used to actually believe this crap, now they just mouth brainless slogans.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.2.3

        Wouldn’t people giving money be the market in action and that by telling people not to give money would be you denying the action of the market?

        • Also very true. Was just thinking about this now. The traditional way that markets work in the media business is this:

          “Clever innovative publisher attracts readers/viewers >> readers/viewers attract advertising and $$$.”

          But this doesn’t work anymore because marketers no longer have to find crowds to advertise to they can stalk their audience wherever they go. The new membership -crowdfunding model for news is much closer to the subscription model, i.e.

          “Clever innovative publisher impresses/wows readership/viewers with truthiness >> readers and viewers directly give money to publisher.”

          One of the key differences between the two is that a reader/viewer funding route is faster and more direct and responds immediately to good journalism. Whereas an advertising based method of funding is reliant on a small number of media buyers being convinced of the greatness of your publishing. And the reality is – media buyers in my experience don’t tend to have a particularly deep understanding of media.

  12. greywarshark 12

    Hey good news CV. It’s a worry to see time progressing but the money stack staying low.
    Time yet though so show us the way CV – fly in and target the money spot!

  13. Observer (Tokoroa) 13

    To: Standard Commentators

    Yet again an important topic has been hijacked by commentators who hate Labour.

    Everyone else is okay – especially National and the tiny parties – but Labour is Satan.

    And you wonder why your numbers in the polling are stagnant.

    If this Blog is to be useful to New Zealand, it will need to pay scrupulous attention to fairness and honesty.

    Currently it is just a buggers muddle.

  14. Dear Standardistas and Mods,

    Thank you so very much for posting such a comprehensive post about both the Hager Files and our PledgeMe campaign.

    Colonial Viper is dead right that the market is not going to deliver an informed electorate. The first video there – which is of my speech to the Information Ethics Conference held in Wellington a couple of weeks back – contains a chunk at 6 minutes 43 seconds ( https://youtu.be/w-Bp_osJdhU?t=6m43s ) talking about the News Crisis.

    I explain the background to why qualoity news cannot expect to be financed by marketing and advertising spend. Simply put there are better places for marketers to spend their money. But to compound the problem “Media Companies”, believing that cracking the advertising puzzle is the only way they can survive keep playing into the hands of the intermediaries who are building the technolgies (like KPEX) which are killing the industry.

    Auctioning advertising inventory creates a buyers market. The reason media companies have always been monopolistic in their behaviour, cross platform and acquistive of any successful startups in the industry is that they need to do these things to maintain the value and price of what they sell. By pooling it and auctioning it they do the exact reverse.

    Back when “Performance display” ( = Cost Per Click or Cost Per Action ) started to take over the industry in 2007 there was an opportunity to say no. Instead Fairfax built their own “Performance Display” network effectively undercutting themselves.

    The business of news is a complete mess – the Electoral Commission just went all in with programmatic (auction) purchasing of advertising for its flag referendum for example and Progressive Enterprises (Countdown) moved its $6million spend in print to digital while simultaneously cutting it and giving the lions share to the giant international networks.

    The picture is the same all over the world as this story from the Guardian reports ( http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/18/newspapers-advertising-crunch-print-digital-slowdown ).

    Scoop has developed an alternative model to support itself – commercial content licensing ( see… http://www.scoop.co.nz/services/content-licensing.html ) which has changed everything for us. We are now incentivised to provide quality news services to our readers, particularly our professional readers, not pander to executives, advertisers or the political causes of deep pocketed owners. Our model – which has already seen us pick up clients like Russell McVeagh, MBIE, DIA, AUT and Treasury – is applicable to other media (probably even The Standard) but they haven’t yet even reported on it. Head in the sand?

    Anyway. This crowd-funding campaign comes 16 years into the life of Scoop. We were here for the birth of the “banner advertising” market, prospered briefly during the heyday back in 2007, and have been busy reinventing ourselves ever since.

    We have a viable future if we can get the support we need to complete our pivot. In our view our existence is all the more important now as the crumbling facade of the old media starts to disintegrate and the parlous state of our industry becomes so very obvious to all.

    We would very much appreciate your assistance in three ways:
    1. Pledging via the campaign pldg.me/scoop ( Note: we only need 800 people to pledge $52 to get to our target )
    2. Sharing your support of the campaign (with a link) in social media, on blogs, in The Standard threads and in person to friends and colleagues.
    3. Emailing friends who you think care about the health of democracy and understand the role of independent ethical journalism and encourage them to get on board.

    I would be happy to hang around in this thread and answer any questions any of you have.

    Thank you again for giving us the opportunity to be heard.

    Alastair Thompson
    Editor Scoop.co.nz
    Trustee Scoop Foundation

    • BM 14.1

      Your website site layout is terrible.
      You need to prune at least two thirds of the links off the front page at the moment there’s far too much going on and it’s just confusing and painful on the eye.

    • Reddelusion 14.2

      There you go my alternative view that was met by rabid response has had a positive outcome re alistairs post. A big thank you is deserved for at least one rwnj who took and interest ( mr flock) I do have some sympathy for scoops argument ie does the market control the media or the other way round. My argument is that eventually the market dictates, Sky TV is a good example, all powerful but now in decline re disruptive technologies

      • ropata 14.2.1

        The “market” can’t dictate anything it is a figment of your fevered RW imagination.
        Oligarchs and their puppets in the Nat Gov have been fucking up the news media for the last 7 years. Please pay attention, dimwit.

      • Conventional wisdom has suggested for the past two decades that market led innovation will find a solution to the “news crisis”. But it hasn’t yet. Not even close. And things are getting much worse fast.

        But Scoop’s Ethical Paywall approach to commercial use licensing could be the market solution that we have all been waiting for. It doesn’t require intervention, rather it is simply the consequence of the assertion of intellectual property rights which were considered pretty normal until the internet came along and made everything free.

        Our nifty idea is this, get businesses and institutions to pay for the production of news which they need [ to inform them, get their messages out and to provide a deterrent to bad instituional behaviour ] and that can fund open access to news services to inform the general public whom society needs to be informed so that democracy can function.

        Its a simple idea, but powerful. Licence fees only need to be paid to news companies which publish useful journalism – and a feature of the idea is that because of this it incentivises the publication of useful insightful structural criticism and reportage of the nitty gritty of policy as that is the stuff that institutions and businesses need covered.

    • whateva next? 14.3

      Thankyou Alistair, for taking action in the face of increasing despondency and complacency.
      Dumbing down the electorate with an endless diet of banal media, TV programmes and cheap booze is working well for National, Crosby Textor and the Money men.
      Like the film “Idiocracy”, we will be consumed by consumerism and not even notice how controlled we have become.
      I agree with all you’ve said about the need to find independent funding to maintain democracy, and my question is:
      Can you see this creating a groundswell, or at least a foundation for a countering to the corruption that is presently overwhelming NZ media? My worry is we can’t beat National at their own game, we need a fresh angle?Would others who have been “cut lose” due to too much integrity join you?
      Thanks again Alistair, I will look the link you have provided, and support your efforts/commitment to democracy

  15. Anne 15

    Thank you Alastair Thompson for your comments. Whilst I don’t approve of the way BM has chosen to highlight the problem , I have to admit I am also confused.

    I should like to make a one-off contribution to your new venture but I don’t do online banking. Can you provide a bank account number for those of us who prefer – for whatever reason – to handle our financial transactions the traditional way.

    Thanks in anticipation.
    Anne

    • Hi Anne,

      Thankyou for your support! We will add some details how to donate to the Scoop Foundation on our Membership Page here:

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/about/membership.html

      Alastair

      • RedBaronCV 15.1.1

        Hi Alastair
        I’ve been over to scoop and can’t even find postal addresses and the like – happy to chuck a little cash you way but finding out is not easy and Idon’t usually do this sort of stuff online

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1

          and why give the credit card companies a 2.5% cut when all of it could go to Scoop

          • alastair thompson 15.1.1.1.1

            We have been learning a lot about the dynamics of raising funds from readers. We find that as a general rule you want to have as many channels as possible, especially frictionless ones.

            Based on this plan we intend to set up a direct CC payment gateway after the PledgeMe campaign – and also to promote regular direct credits (monthly giving) both via CC, Paypal and directly managed through internet banking.

            PledgeMe is a great way to raise money because the way it works is widely understood and it is imbued with a culture of both asking for money and donating money which is healthy and attractive to both participants and supplicants.

            Al

            P.S. Thanks for your support in this thread.

    • Hi again Anne,

      There are bank account details posted to this page now:

      http://info.scoop.co.nz/The_Scoop_Foundation/

      Make a donation

      If you would like to support the Scoop Foundation’s mission through making a donation and/or becoming a member please see the following:

      Credit/Debit Cards: Go to takebackthenews.nz and register as a member of the New Scoop and make your donation (via PayPal) you can also register there as a contributor.

      Internet Banking: 1) Make a donation to The Scoop Foundation for Public Interest Journalism’s Kiwibank account 38-9017-0264564-01. 2) Email your details* to foundation@scoop.co.nz.

      Cheque: Please make cheques out to ‘The Scoop Foundation for Public Interest Journalism’ and post to PO Box 11501, Manners St, Wellington or in person at L3 354 Lambton Quay, Wellington.*

      *Please include the following info: your full name, address, email and contact number.

  16. Human 16

    Anyone can be corrupt because they don’t THINK for themselves.

    You get one guy, who is as polite as a feather, and surround him with ‘sophisticated manipulative powerful men’- the next minute Mr Feather will want to impress.

    Mr Feather hated high school, probably was bullied, being lanky and odd looking, any acceptance he will take – just the way it is.

    Mr Feather probably has never had any girls truly like him (but I did), and is insecure around them, especially if one is intimidating him.

    Mr Feather is a feather.

    Probably not a bad guy- just a feather.

  17. Ron 17

    One hopes that Hager is no longer banking with Westpac. Tho who would be better is a conundrum

  18. Human 18

    To the awake person?

    What was your favourite era?

  19. keyman 20

    all you people just will not give in accept and embrace john key and stop these harmful communications ,stop asking questions learn to love the key just like mike and it will be happy days.

  20. Tracey 21

    the police and the countrys bank breaching laws made no mention on national gv news last night. a week old story about a usa dad and step dad at a weddi g got 3.5 minutes

  21. RedBaronCV 22

    Isn’t Westpac now the AIRNZ flybuys partner? It’ll be a one stop shop for the cops. When is parliament back – we need some questions to the police minister

    • tracey 22.1

      at least airnz said it wouldnt give up hagers info without a production order.. police never got one.

      • RedBaronCV 22.1.1

        Westpac may now be able to give flight info through access to the airpoints scheme??

        • tracey 22.1.1.1

          except presumablt westpac is gojng to be subject to a privacy commission investigation and banking ombudsmen investigatio … and damages can be awarded by PC I believe

  22. RedBaronCV 23

    And what about the deputy commissioner who appeared to be running the show – was someone instructing him?? speculation of course

    • tracey 23.1

      my reading was the DI said assiss comm was part of oral discussion but later it seems the police backed off that assertion?

  23. upnorth 24

    the reason why the public voted down labour and everyone on this was because rawshark never identified himself.

    will he front up – no?

    this story is dead

    • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1

      If the police raid on Hager is found to be legal, it will make international headlines.

      If on the other hand, the court decides to uphold basic democratic and human rights, it will make international headlines.

      I bet you wish the dead story would stop moving 😆

    • ropata 24.2

      The story still has legs because the Nats and the Police are *still* persecuting journalists and using all the dishonest tricks outlined in Dirty Politics. As long as there is free speech in NZ the story will not go away, however much you wish to ignore it.

      (PS Danyl McLaughlan’s analysis of the last election is probably the best I’ve seen — DP was just one part of the puzzle. The main reason National keeps getting in is because of a wealthy middle class enjoying a big property bubble, and the traditional Labour base increasingly being disenfranchised/forced overseas/fragmented)

      • Grindlebottom 24.2.1

        One of the things that has changed voting patterns is that many people who were once employees are now self-employed and/or employed as contractors. That makes them small businessmen/women and increases the likelihood they will vote National where once they might perhaps have voted Labour.

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